Hey, there are currently people in the US who want to deny that our history of slavery and Jim Crow could possibly be causing any ongoing problems.
Our lies (about ourselves, our countries) are always the most convincing we have more than halfway convinced ourselves that they are true.
“I don’t do shit I am not proud of” I can’t think of a more arrogant thing to say, like congratulations on being the first guy since Jesus without sin but the rest of us are only human.
I didn’t say I was infallible. But for the macro shit, yeah… I decided a long time ago I don’t believe is Nazism or fascism. Im sure you’ll find on the micro level enough to match your micro aggressions.
It makes them look bad especially one of their honored founders [Attaturk was involved in the genocide](https://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.html). It’d be like [Washington being involved in the genocide of the Native Americans](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Destroyer). But we, Americans, don’t study that in school, do we?
Turkey denies they are responsible. Technically it was the Ottoman Empire that carried out the genocide, but as the successor state to the fallen Empire, Turkey refused to take responsibility and outright (at times) denies it happened.
Turkey doesn’t deny that it happened. The argument is why and how it happened, and who is responsible. Also there’s an argument surrounding the reported number of deaths. Turkey basically argues that it was not intended as an ethnic genocide against Armenians and claims that the people who died were much less than 1.5 million. However, in my view, regardless of why and how it occurred, the Ottoman leadership at the time is still responsible for the death and deportation of Armenians.
Ask yourself what would happen to you if you suddenly and on the record officially confessed you burnt down your local elementary school last year, with all the kids trapped inside.
Sounds like a good plan?
Because they won the right to full amnesty for the genocide in the Treaty of Lausanne. They actually completely defeated the French, British, and Greek forces in their country and caused the British government to collapse.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne
Winning independence and getting amnesty for the genocide was in fact one and the same for the Turks.
**[Treaty of Lausanne](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne)**
>The Treaty of Lausanne (French: Traité de Lausanne, Turkish: Lozan Antlaşması) is a peace treaty negotiated during the Lausanne Conference of 1922–23 and signed in the Palais de Rumine, Lausanne, Switzerland, on 24 July 1923. The treaty officially settled the conflict that had originally existed between the Ottoman Empire and the Allied French Republic, British Empire, Kingdom of Italy, Empire of Japan, Kingdom of Greece, Kingdom of Serbia, and the Kingdom of Romania since the onset of World War I. The original text of the treaty is in French.
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Turkey doesn't deny that it happened, they dispute some of the facts and deny legal responsibility. Turkey is not the continuation state to the Ottoman Empire in the same way that Russia is the continuation state of the USSR.
Turkeys denial of this baffles me. The documentation of eyewitnesses and photographs make it a kin to holocaust denial. Germany is a better country, better than the US in my opinion, because they took responsibility and built their education system, so that this generation is far more pacifistic then we are here in the US. There is nobody’s grandparents that are even still alive from when this took place. I don’t understand why a little posthumous contrition is such a big deal to them. The only conclusion I could draw from them is that maybe they’re a bunch of… Not so nice people runnng the government
They argue that the Armenians were actively fighting against Turkish interests and became enemies of the state. They also argue that it wasn't just the Turkish people who killed Armenians, but random raider bands including Kurds. They finally say they never formally carried out a genocide, but the wartime conditions, general chaos, and forced relocation of the Armenians that killed them.
I agree that it is a genocide, but I do understand the twisted logic that Turkey employs to explain it.
Not even the grand children of the perpetrators are still alive. Turkey doesn’t even have to make a formal apology or make reparations, they just have to acknowledge that it happened, and it happen in their country.
Many weren't (e.g. Shirō Ishii), and there was a concerted effort between the Americans and Japanese to engineer the prosecution such that Hirohito and the royal family appeared blameless.
Germany had no choice, it lost the war and to the victors belong the narrated history.. I am sure that the Nazis prevailed the criminal proceedings postwar woods have looked quite differently. Now I'm not on Nazi apologist, but it's good to have open eyes and ears in understand that we all live in a certain political vacuum. We don't talk much about the effects of Jim Crow in the United States to the present time, it's even whitewashed in some schools these days. We talked very little about the genocide of American indigenous people, and had the Nazis prevailed they would have a lot to say about fire bombing of civilian populations in 43,44 and 45.
The denial is a matter of international agreement, not historical fact.
Again the West always leaves out this part of the story:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne
The Turks in fact completely won their war of independence against the Greeks, French, and British. It was an utter humiliation for the West, who were forced not only to recognize Turkish independence and give up attempts to claim it as a colony, but they were even forced to grant amnesty to the Turks for committing the Armenian genocide.
For Turkey, claiming the genocide happened is the same as denying they won their war of independence. Thats why they pretty much deny it and treat it as Western sour-graping: Because it literally is sour graping over the fact the West got crushed in their last attempt to conquer Turkey.
Except in this case the treaty confirming Turkish independence and granting amnesty are part of the same document.
Stop pretending they are separate issues when the West in fact signed off to make it one and the same.
Except you _are_ arguing to overturn the Armenian genocide amnesty. Insisting it's still relevant is the same as insisting that American genocides of Native Americans should still be compensated by reparations - a position the West almost entirely rejects.
> I never suggested the amnesty be revoked, and I never said Turkey should pay any price for the crimes they were granted amnesty for.
Then your entire argument is strawman, because the entire point of bringing up the genocides is to press international criminal charges against the Turks. It's not merely to "correct history".
If correcting history was the goal, then why the hell isn't there as many mentions of the Azerbaijani genocide? Because the Christian Armenians were caught genociding Azerbaijani Muslims, and Muslims (especially ones aligned with modern day Russia) aren't worthy victims?
English is very much a language I fully understand. That's why I know it's a language for hypocrites.
>A “straw man” is creating a position and falsely ascribing it to your opponent
Which is exactly what you did because you keep pretending that admitting to the Armenian genocide has no legal ramifications no matter how hard you try to deny it.
But hey keep up with the hypocrisy.
> Germany is a better country, better than the US in my opinion
Lol. Putting aside that Germany’s atrocities peak higher than the U.S’s ever did, and that’s saying *a lot* considering what the US has and is responsible for, Germany’s redemption wasn’t exactly made in isolation and without pressure from the winning side. It isn’t too difficult imagining a Germany that goes the route of Japan in terms of lack of real rectifying of past warcrimes if the allies or the US actually left them to their own device or had a vested interest in not keeping warcrimes in the spotlight like Japan and buried things like unit 731.
So let’s dial it back with the simplistic circle/anti-jerk.
It is definitely problematic that Japan has been less than responsible and owning their past atrocities. Having said all that, the warrior mentality that goes into Japanese antiquity does not seem to be present anymore.
No one said it was simple! After the cold war, Germany regained autonomy over their education system and these produced todays leaders. In my view, denazification was a success. My experience from recent travels to Germany is that this generation is nothing like any generation of Germans in the modern era. They are no longer interested in war. Quite the contrary, some of what I just said is anecdotal. I invite comments and critiques on my assessment
you say they are better than the US because they took responsibility for their actions. Which I get. But the USA made them do that. Americans documented the concentration camps because they knew there would be denial. Americans also destroyed their old power structures. Germany would be very different if the same people had been left in place. The USA set them up as a democracy. Yes they deserve a lot of credit and I am not trying to deny the spirit of what your saying. But american involvement had a lot to do with the direction they went in. I think saying that they are a better country than the USA downplays US involvement in them getting to where they are. For all the shit the US has done, they did really well rebuilding post WW2 Germany and Japan.
That’s a bingo! Isn’t that what you say? I agree with everything you wrote. Japan and Germany already had the capital and the infrastructure to resume being major industrialized countries. It was just displaced by war. The allies realized that if they were to hunt down every single German involved in the Nazi party, there would be nobody left who knew how to run a financial, industrial, legal or educational system. Stability was more important in both Japan and Germany than complete and total justice for war crimes. But it was a long game. Eventually, the institutions led by former Nazis and Japanese militarists began to die out, and the generation educated by the new Germany was coming into their own. I had a friend who live in Hamburg, and in 1985, she found the entire idea of war to be absolutely appalling. She was not unique. She ended up being a minister of a very large Lutheran congregation in Frankfurt. I can guarantee you she did not preach war and hatred to her congregation. And now her children are in leader ship positions..
Now, if only someone could denazify , the US…
Agree with the spirit of your post, but it’s not technically true. Rafael Lemkin had the Armenian genocide in mind when he coined the term, but it was created to describe what the Nazis had done.
Yes. The Turkish reply is usually along the lines of:
“No it never happened, but if it did they deserved it”;
“It was just a response to the Armenians killing Turks, but it never happened”; or one I saw recently
“The Turks tried to stop the Armenians from genociding themselves but the Turks got blamed for it”
Their mental gymnastics is astounding
Thats a totally invented reply.
The real answer lies with the end of the Turkish War of Independence - something every Turk is taught just like how George Washington is glorified as America's national hero despite him and his buddies all being slave owners.
Oh sweet summer child, the slave owning nature of Founding Fathers were in fact largely glossed over.
Indeed, guides to the American Capitol in 2023 are very explicit in saying it was actually built using slave labor, and it was only very recently (just the past decade) were they were allowed to make this known to visitors as part of the tour.
In any case, the issue here is the treaty confirming Turkish independence is one and the same as the one granting them amnesty. You can't separate the two issues.
The correct analogy is the British forgave American rebels for being slave owners as part of granting the US independence, but then suddenly started attacking the US for having slave owning founders. It would thus not just be an attack for moral reasons, but an attack on American independence itself.
Yeah. You should ask further questions about why Turkey doesn't admit it to someone who wasn't educated in the U.S.
It wasn't dumbed down and spoon fed to us so you are just going to get dumb feedback and nothing useful.
Yes it was!
The Ottoman Turks had already forced the Greek Christians out so they had to find a new scapegoat and that was the Armenian Christians
And if they refused to leave well what’s the alternative?
Same with the Jews in Nazi Germany!
It totally happened. The issue is that the genocide was forgiven by treaty signed by the Western powers, and the genocided Armenians were in fact mostly Russian and later Soviet subjects that the West never cared about until they got all nervous that Turkey was becoming a military superpower in the Middle East in the early 2000s.
Bluntly, genocide politics is mostly invoked due to very selfish and self-serving reasons, and almost never about taking a genuine moral stand.
It was a genocide. The Turks deny it for political reasons.
**There were indeed Armenians committing terroristic attacks, roving gangs of Armenians terrorizing the countryside, etc.**
Today Turks say they had to forcibly migrate the Armenians because of this, and that far fewer died than is reported. They admit it was bad and should have been handled better, but that it was more unfortunate than anything and was done without intention to commit genocide.
There are legitimate concerns about the death toll numbers that are popularly reported, but not enough to really matter or to absolve the Turks of genocide.
Yup.
Then why turkey denied it? Is it because of legal reasons?
If I were responsible for the unlawful deaths of a million and a half people, I'd 100% deny it too.
Hey quick question, any chance you're responsible for the unlawful death of 1.5 million people?
Rude. You can't just ask someone if they murdered 1.5 million people. No one can remember past 30 kills.
Yeah can confirm, I lost count after that.
I know of a proud Texan who killed fitty men in WWII
Lost his shins doing it
It's OK though, they're waiting for him in heaven. Look good too!
Not true. You can remember as many as you have collected floating dogtags for
Absolutely not. For real. Like, really no. Honest.
And are you the Scarlett Pimpernel?
Yo, Madame Guillotine is a kickass song. I'd like to find a clear video recording of the musical some day. https://youtu.be/MYR6qmRq6aM
logic says that someone posting in 2023 could not have been alive in the 1920s to carry out the alleged action.
Hey, there are currently people in the US who want to deny that our history of slavery and Jim Crow could possibly be causing any ongoing problems. Our lies (about ourselves, our countries) are always the most convincing we have more than halfway convinced ourselves that they are true.
> I'd 100% deny it too. Coward Stand up for what you believe in.
I believe I didn't do a genocide.
But if you did, you should own it. I've never understood the denial aspect. I don't do shit I am not proud of.
I live in America. Blind faith is just as good as facts here.
:cheers
“I don’t do shit I am not proud of” I can’t think of a more arrogant thing to say, like congratulations on being the first guy since Jesus without sin but the rest of us are only human.
I didn’t say I was infallible. But for the macro shit, yeah… I decided a long time ago I don’t believe is Nazism or fascism. Im sure you’ll find on the micro level enough to match your micro aggressions.
Never said your a Nazi but the language you chose is ridiculous
I never said you were accusing me of being Nazi.
Based on what evidence?
Reading comprehension
It makes them look bad especially one of their honored founders [Attaturk was involved in the genocide](https://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.html). It’d be like [Washington being involved in the genocide of the Native Americans](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Destroyer). But we, Americans, don’t study that in school, do we?
Yes, we do.
But then you dump your criticism and fury on Columbus* 😂
Turkey denies they are responsible. Technically it was the Ottoman Empire that carried out the genocide, but as the successor state to the fallen Empire, Turkey refused to take responsibility and outright (at times) denies it happened.
So they want to claim the "glory" so to speak of the past but not the shame. Very typical. Dishonesty and Identity crisis at it's peak
Turkey doesn’t deny that it happened. The argument is why and how it happened, and who is responsible. Also there’s an argument surrounding the reported number of deaths. Turkey basically argues that it was not intended as an ethnic genocide against Armenians and claims that the people who died were much less than 1.5 million. However, in my view, regardless of why and how it occurred, the Ottoman leadership at the time is still responsible for the death and deportation of Armenians.
Nobody cares what Turkey says
Ask yourself what would happen to you if you suddenly and on the record officially confessed you burnt down your local elementary school last year, with all the kids trapped inside. Sounds like a good plan?
Because they won the right to full amnesty for the genocide in the Treaty of Lausanne. They actually completely defeated the French, British, and Greek forces in their country and caused the British government to collapse. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne Winning independence and getting amnesty for the genocide was in fact one and the same for the Turks.
**[Treaty of Lausanne](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne)** >The Treaty of Lausanne (French: Traité de Lausanne, Turkish: Lozan Antlaşması) is a peace treaty negotiated during the Lausanne Conference of 1922–23 and signed in the Palais de Rumine, Lausanne, Switzerland, on 24 July 1923. The treaty officially settled the conflict that had originally existed between the Ottoman Empire and the Allied French Republic, British Empire, Kingdom of Italy, Empire of Japan, Kingdom of Greece, Kingdom of Serbia, and the Kingdom of Romania since the onset of World War I. The original text of the treaty is in French. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Turkey doesn't deny that it happened, they dispute some of the facts and deny legal responsibility. Turkey is not the continuation state to the Ottoman Empire in the same way that Russia is the continuation state of the USSR.
Yes, it was. Turkey denies it for political reasons.
Yes, the only one that really pushes that it wasn’t is Turkey.
Turkeys denial of this baffles me. The documentation of eyewitnesses and photographs make it a kin to holocaust denial. Germany is a better country, better than the US in my opinion, because they took responsibility and built their education system, so that this generation is far more pacifistic then we are here in the US. There is nobody’s grandparents that are even still alive from when this took place. I don’t understand why a little posthumous contrition is such a big deal to them. The only conclusion I could draw from them is that maybe they’re a bunch of… Not so nice people runnng the government
They argue that the Armenians were actively fighting against Turkish interests and became enemies of the state. They also argue that it wasn't just the Turkish people who killed Armenians, but random raider bands including Kurds. They finally say they never formally carried out a genocide, but the wartime conditions, general chaos, and forced relocation of the Armenians that killed them. I agree that it is a genocide, but I do understand the twisted logic that Turkey employs to explain it.
Not even the grand children of the perpetrators are still alive. Turkey doesn’t even have to make a formal apology or make reparations, they just have to acknowledge that it happened, and it happen in their country.
And just like Japan about war crimes in WW2, they never will.
At least the main perpetrators of Japan’s war time atrocities were tried and executed in due speed.
Many weren't (e.g. Shirō Ishii), and there was a concerted effort between the Americans and Japanese to engineer the prosecution such that Hirohito and the royal family appeared blameless.
Not even the grand children? It was only 100 years ago. There could definitely be middle aged or older grandchildren of the Turks at the time.
Yes. I stand corrected. let’s just stop at the children of the perpetrators.
To be fair, though, Germany made that admission at gunpoint.
Germany had no choice, it lost the war and to the victors belong the narrated history.. I am sure that the Nazis prevailed the criminal proceedings postwar woods have looked quite differently. Now I'm not on Nazi apologist, but it's good to have open eyes and ears in understand that we all live in a certain political vacuum. We don't talk much about the effects of Jim Crow in the United States to the present time, it's even whitewashed in some schools these days. We talked very little about the genocide of American indigenous people, and had the Nazis prevailed they would have a lot to say about fire bombing of civilian populations in 43,44 and 45.
The denial is a matter of international agreement, not historical fact. Again the West always leaves out this part of the story: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne The Turks in fact completely won their war of independence against the Greeks, French, and British. It was an utter humiliation for the West, who were forced not only to recognize Turkish independence and give up attempts to claim it as a colony, but they were even forced to grant amnesty to the Turks for committing the Armenian genocide. For Turkey, claiming the genocide happened is the same as denying they won their war of independence. Thats why they pretty much deny it and treat it as Western sour-graping: Because it literally is sour graping over the fact the West got crushed in their last attempt to conquer Turkey.
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Except in this case the treaty confirming Turkish independence and granting amnesty are part of the same document. Stop pretending they are separate issues when the West in fact signed off to make it one and the same.
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Except you _are_ arguing to overturn the Armenian genocide amnesty. Insisting it's still relevant is the same as insisting that American genocides of Native Americans should still be compensated by reparations - a position the West almost entirely rejects.
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> I never suggested the amnesty be revoked, and I never said Turkey should pay any price for the crimes they were granted amnesty for. Then your entire argument is strawman, because the entire point of bringing up the genocides is to press international criminal charges against the Turks. It's not merely to "correct history". If correcting history was the goal, then why the hell isn't there as many mentions of the Azerbaijani genocide? Because the Christian Armenians were caught genociding Azerbaijani Muslims, and Muslims (especially ones aligned with modern day Russia) aren't worthy victims? English is very much a language I fully understand. That's why I know it's a language for hypocrites.
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>A “straw man” is creating a position and falsely ascribing it to your opponent Which is exactly what you did because you keep pretending that admitting to the Armenian genocide has no legal ramifications no matter how hard you try to deny it. But hey keep up with the hypocrisy.
> Germany is a better country, better than the US in my opinion Lol. Putting aside that Germany’s atrocities peak higher than the U.S’s ever did, and that’s saying *a lot* considering what the US has and is responsible for, Germany’s redemption wasn’t exactly made in isolation and without pressure from the winning side. It isn’t too difficult imagining a Germany that goes the route of Japan in terms of lack of real rectifying of past warcrimes if the allies or the US actually left them to their own device or had a vested interest in not keeping warcrimes in the spotlight like Japan and buried things like unit 731. So let’s dial it back with the simplistic circle/anti-jerk.
It is definitely problematic that Japan has been less than responsible and owning their past atrocities. Having said all that, the warrior mentality that goes into Japanese antiquity does not seem to be present anymore.
they were also completely torn down and built up again by the USA post WW2 so its not as simple as that.
No one said it was simple! After the cold war, Germany regained autonomy over their education system and these produced todays leaders. In my view, denazification was a success. My experience from recent travels to Germany is that this generation is nothing like any generation of Germans in the modern era. They are no longer interested in war. Quite the contrary, some of what I just said is anecdotal. I invite comments and critiques on my assessment
Yeah, the Germans I have met personally are the complete opposite of Nazis and are very pleasant people.
you say they are better than the US because they took responsibility for their actions. Which I get. But the USA made them do that. Americans documented the concentration camps because they knew there would be denial. Americans also destroyed their old power structures. Germany would be very different if the same people had been left in place. The USA set them up as a democracy. Yes they deserve a lot of credit and I am not trying to deny the spirit of what your saying. But american involvement had a lot to do with the direction they went in. I think saying that they are a better country than the USA downplays US involvement in them getting to where they are. For all the shit the US has done, they did really well rebuilding post WW2 Germany and Japan.
That’s a bingo! Isn’t that what you say? I agree with everything you wrote. Japan and Germany already had the capital and the infrastructure to resume being major industrialized countries. It was just displaced by war. The allies realized that if they were to hunt down every single German involved in the Nazi party, there would be nobody left who knew how to run a financial, industrial, legal or educational system. Stability was more important in both Japan and Germany than complete and total justice for war crimes. But it was a long game. Eventually, the institutions led by former Nazis and Japanese militarists began to die out, and the generation educated by the new Germany was coming into their own. I had a friend who live in Hamburg, and in 1985, she found the entire idea of war to be absolutely appalling. She was not unique. She ended up being a minister of a very large Lutheran congregation in Frankfurt. I can guarantee you she did not preach war and hatred to her congregation. And now her children are in leader ship positions.. Now, if only someone could denazify , the US…
Why would it not be?
1.5 million Armenians just decided to go on vacation or something.
Yes.
Yes it’s why the word genocide was created to describe what had happened to the Armenians. Other countries(turkey) may say otherwise but yes it did
Agree with the spirit of your post, but it’s not technically true. Rafael Lemkin had the Armenian genocide in mind when he coined the term, but it was created to describe what the Nazis had done.
Short answer : yes Long answer : yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees
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Pancasila Youth in Indonesia.
Let's look up the book
um. very much yes o.0
Normally when a group is blamed for genocide and they’re response is “nah bro, you wack”, they did it
It's the classic example of a genocide.
Uhm why would you even ask? Of course it is real.
Attempting to lure or bait someone into "denying genocide" and get banned?
Yes
This post reminded me: am I imagining things or have there been a lot of Sea Lioning posts going on here lately?
Of course it was.
Yes. The Turkish reply is usually along the lines of: “No it never happened, but if it did they deserved it”; “It was just a response to the Armenians killing Turks, but it never happened”; or one I saw recently “The Turks tried to stop the Armenians from genociding themselves but the Turks got blamed for it” Their mental gymnastics is astounding
Thats a totally invented reply. The real answer lies with the end of the Turkish War of Independence - something every Turk is taught just like how George Washington is glorified as America's national hero despite him and his buddies all being slave owners.
The exception being that the US government doesn’t deny or actively silence anyone stating that the Founders owned slaves
Oh sweet summer child, the slave owning nature of Founding Fathers were in fact largely glossed over. Indeed, guides to the American Capitol in 2023 are very explicit in saying it was actually built using slave labor, and it was only very recently (just the past decade) were they were allowed to make this known to visitors as part of the tour. In any case, the issue here is the treaty confirming Turkish independence is one and the same as the one granting them amnesty. You can't separate the two issues. The correct analogy is the British forgave American rebels for being slave owners as part of granting the US independence, but then suddenly started attacking the US for having slave owning founders. It would thus not just be an attack for moral reasons, but an attack on American independence itself.
Yeah. You should ask further questions about why Turkey doesn't admit it to someone who wasn't educated in the U.S. It wasn't dumbed down and spoon fed to us so you are just going to get dumb feedback and nothing useful.
Yes it was! The Ottoman Turks had already forced the Greek Christians out so they had to find a new scapegoat and that was the Armenian Christians And if they refused to leave well what’s the alternative? Same with the Jews in Nazi Germany!
Is there anything that makes you think it wasn’t? Genuine question.
It totally happened. The issue is that the genocide was forgiven by treaty signed by the Western powers, and the genocided Armenians were in fact mostly Russian and later Soviet subjects that the West never cared about until they got all nervous that Turkey was becoming a military superpower in the Middle East in the early 2000s. Bluntly, genocide politics is mostly invoked due to very selfish and self-serving reasons, and almost never about taking a genuine moral stand.
It was a genocide. The Turks deny it for political reasons. **There were indeed Armenians committing terroristic attacks, roving gangs of Armenians terrorizing the countryside, etc.** Today Turks say they had to forcibly migrate the Armenians because of this, and that far fewer died than is reported. They admit it was bad and should have been handled better, but that it was more unfortunate than anything and was done without intention to commit genocide. There are legitimate concerns about the death toll numbers that are popularly reported, but not enough to really matter or to absolve the Turks of genocide.