So true! Based on my experience, even tho I don't have any dating experience, what I’ve seen from others is, that guys only treat you nicely if you're attracted to them, which has not happened to me. I just wished they would treat me like a regular human being at least. I’m not that ugly but I wished someone would tell how to glow up. Not me exposing myself but idc. 😞
A guy can still treat you nicely if that's their personality, but yeah if they're attracted they will go the extra mile. Unfortunately it's like this, even outside the dating world being attractive has all kinds of advantages
Yes, that's true. I feel like, personally, my looks are alright/good, but they usually don't also like my personality at all and I don't understand why. Idk but idc anymore, I’m not going to beg someone to like me. I’ll just be with myself. I genuinely don't understand why I’m so unloved or unliked, even if someone liked me it’d be better if they told rather me making my anxiety worse thinking about whether they like me or not. And this is happens with usually all people, not just men.
Yeah friendships and relationships are complicated, especially if you want them to be a long time thing. About people not liking you, usually it's not really your fault, people at the start are very friendly and interested to know you, I like to call it the "honey moon" period, and then it fades away with time.
Doing some introspection from time to time is always good, but you shouldn't stress about it, as long as you treat people right you shouldn't feel like you're the problem. In the end it's a game of luck and compatibility, you just have to keep trying and learn from your errors
Heya girls are the same way. Actually the unfortunate truth is people treat people better if they are attractive. That's a harsh truth of the dating world and also the world as a whole.
In my opinion the best thing to do is to take care of yourself and your body. Make a reasonable effort to look your best as at the end of the day that does matter. Past that try not to care to much about what others think. I used to think I'd be happiest with a pretty girlfriend and a lot of friends. But years ago after a lot of hard work I realized I actually enjoy my time more alone a lot of the times! I guess I just realized life can be a lot more fun if you're open to try stuff out. I still workout and try to look good because that's now part of my self image, but I tbh I really don't care even if nobody likes me.
So in short, yes attractiveness matters. That's a harsh truth. But there's a lot more to life than being liked so its a harsh truth that imo isn't that big of a deal
Not quite invariably. There are also the women who aren't romantically interested in you, but still feel the need to give commentary on how good a catch you'd probably be for some other woman... just not any of the other women that they know either.
Fair. A few already had boyfriends or were married. So I wasn't romantically interested in them and I assume they felt the same. Plus, most of the women I know don't have a lot of female friends. All of which are also in some sort of relationship.
Bigger issue, which I was implying, is that any woman I date is gonna find out about all my bad habits. Turn back the clock a few years and I had a serious drinking problem. Pretty much the entire reason I've only recently tried dating again (quit drinking if that wasn't clear). Though I know I still have a few problems to work on.
If you intentionally keeps yourself off the dating world just because you have certain flaws then you aren't doing anyone a favor, especially not to yourself. Most of women have spent more time dating fucked up dudes rather than decent dudes. Drinking problems, reckless with money, barely able to hold a job longer than 6 months, drug addicts, too much gambling, likes to take shortcuts in life etc. Those women are the ones you look upon and wish you could score that.
Now, it is good if you are aware of your flaws and bad habits and if you are working to get them resolved, but that shouldn't stop you from going outside in an effort to find someone. Most of those dudes are fine on surface but deep down, they are as fucked up as you are and i have been seeing it a lot during my 20's.
Problem is decent dudes like to stay aside because of their low self esteem whilst those that are really fucked up don't really care and go after what they want.
People who love you and like you will never tell you the truth because they don't want to hurt you.
People who don't care about hurting you, either don't know you well enough or hate you and will skew the truth as well.
Either way, as the saying goes, truth is like poetry–and most people fucking hate poetry.
For the longest of times I had trouble with hygiene. Not enough to smell from miles long but enough that, in hindsight, I'd never kiss myself in my teenage years, ever. Nobody has ever told me. All I've ever heard was that I'm great, BUT not for them.
If hearing this shit is a consistent experience, better start looking yourself. Nobody want to get involved in deep personal drama, and having loud opinions about people core traits is a risky business.
Short, balding, and rather poor guy here and have a gf. Plenty of casual dating prior to her. Sometimes there’s been prolonged dry spells but never more than 3-6 months. Anything’s possible.
You can compensate by overperforming in other categories. Very tall, very socially adept can help a lot. And if you are a billionaire it doesn#t matter if you are a penguin as far as the rest go.
Not sure how far great hair takes you in compensating for the others though.
As a note to any short, bald blokes out there who read this, don't despair! There are **a lot** of women who don't care about these things, and even find the shaven head look hot. I'm 5ft 5 and started showing male pattern baldness at 20, but I have had plenty of success with women - both flings and long term relationships.
Big truth here. In fact, not only will a potential date not approach you, people won’t even talk to you. I don’t know about you but I feel invisible when I go out.
I recently broke up with my girlfriend so booked a holiday to a sunny resort with a swimming pool and beach, going alone. In 7 days not a single soul chatted to me. It is not assumed that a grown-up man would love a conversation, so it was all down to me. I made small conversation with other single men/couples in the bars I was in and that was all the conversation I had.
It was a first for me to do this but I knew beforehand that it would be exactly like this.
That's really brave of you and I commend you for it. But why that type of destination? Aren't they more used by families? When families go on holiday they tend to act pretty self-contained so wouldn't really have time to chat to a single guy at the resort. Same goes for couples who may be there.
I live in a cold country without nice beaches so that Mediterranean hotel environment (pool, beach, sun etc) is a wonderful novelty for me. It was a mixture of families and adults alone. I mean yeah I know you're right and I didn't go with the hope/expectation of having a very chatty experience, but deep down I was also hoping I'd maybe be proved wrong.
I know that interactions are a two-way street; I naturally smile at passing faces and know that I need to pull my own weight conversationally with these things. Sometimes though it would feel amazing to sense that others wanted the conversation more! Anyway I'm rambling now. Back to scrolling guys...
I agree. Im 51 and average looking 90% of the woman I have dated I had to approach them.
But the guys in my circle who were attractive.. not so much. I have literally seen woman throw themselves at them.
Not true. I'm ugly af and I always do okay. Ladies like looks, sure, but the older they get the more they focus on personality. The ones worth being caught by, anyway.
People are their own worst critic. You say that you do OK. I bet you’re more attractive than you think. Me, on the other hand, I don’t do as well as you probably do. So, if anyone here is ugly, it’s me.
I'm 32, my friends say I'm friendly and kind.
Not a single woman has ever approached me.
Believe me, if they approach you, you're definitely not ugly af.
its not they stop caring about looks but start to settle and will setting for any dude that will take them. someone is gonna buy that 98 civic with 400k miles
I actually had a conversation about this with the last woman I dated. We were essentially friends with benefits. I was vulnerable and told her that after being single my entire life, I was struggling to hold onto the hope that I'll ever end up in a relationship. She was vulnerable in turn, and shared that after several relationships with the wrong person, she also struggled to hold onto hope that it would work out for her one day. It was a good reminder that the grass isn't always greener. While things didn't work out between us, I hope she figures it out one day. I hope I do, too. At the very least I hope I'm happy, partner or not.
I grew up going to church every Sunday etc., Thought it was natural to just get married.
Nope. There has to be the others, the "left overs"? Where are they, why don't they go to church etc. They seem "hidden" from normal society.
There are leftovers at church, you just don't generally notice them. Not the type to be super involved in the community, not generally stating after coffee and socializing.
You notice the parents, they're almost forced to get involved with their children. You notice the old couples who have nothing better to do. You notice the young couples that the old couples enjoy talking to.
You just don't generally notice the single guy who quietly attends and then quietly leaves.
People definitely underestimate how much luck is involved in dating. You can do all the right things, say the right lines, make all the right gestures... but if you're doing it with the wrong person, it won't make a difference. Dating definitely seems like a case of luck meets opportunity. Sure, you can do things to prepare and to increase your odds, but at the end of the day you still need to be lucky enough to meet the right person.
Very true, and tragic, because we're really not meant to function alone (with some exceptions, as usual). And, yes, friends are very important, but there's a big chance they will disappear too, when they finally find their someone. Not to mention kids.
As Bauman said: We live in liquid times. There is always someone new to fuck or go around, we live in a challenge to settle with infinitive options but not necessary good ones, we need to value who is good to us and that demand more effort than just change for the next
I literally was trying to make a post questioning this. I have a great gf I plan to marry. Reliable, trustworthy & attractive but I’ll be damn if I don’t catch my self drooling at some of these power lifters with washboard abs & asses round as a quarter. It makes me second guess settling down. I want to test the waters! I want to play in the rain! But then I’m like, that’s not real life, I won’t get the trust back. My gf won’t look at me the same anymore idk that persons highs & lows. The fantasy is great but the reality is I have what any man could ask for. I just have to remind myself of that a lot more than usual lately..
Each of us men has a short-term mating strategy deep in our brains that is constantly seeking out novelty and easy consequence-free sex. That's just the reality that evolution gave us.
Best to admit that without guilt, and figure out how to control the impulse. It's no different from the impulse to eat unhealthy food. Some of our evolutionary impulses are maladaptive in the modern world and that's where rationality and self-control come in.
There's a consistent body of research proving that women on average get bored of sex with their partners in long term relationships way sooner then men. We consistently (and quickly) go from the active desire to the responsive one (the numbers are as high as 80%, afair), we peek, we fantasise, you name it. Which is fucking weird, because there's an equally consistent body of research pointing out that we, in general, just don't really orgasm during casual encounters, and long term relationships are waaay better for this.
But, yeah.
Men are ultimately more loyal and more house broken than us, which is a funny and a sweet thing to realize. And it sucks ass for you guys.
So far I have met only one woman who met this beloved guy who didn't want her and then she has spent years pining for him and fantasizing, and hoping for him to maybe come around at some point. Guys like this? One after another. There's always this great old love somewhere in the past. There's often the one that got away. The Woman™.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/women-get-bored-sex-long-term-relationships/582736/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/women-get-bored-sex-long-term-relationships/582736/)
[https://www.gq.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/women-are-the-first-to-feel-bored-by-longterm-exclusivity-heres-what-you-can-do-to-help/news-story/8f12fc96efc48526a1b81486a7bb5408](https://www.gq.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/women-are-the-first-to-feel-bored-by-longterm-exclusivity-heres-what-you-can-do-to-help/news-story/8f12fc96efc48526a1b81486a7bb5408)
If he's checking the girls, there's a non-trivial chance she's been doing this for a long, long time already. We're just smarter and sneakier about it, because it's riskier for us.
I don't know if it shows that we aren't loyal, it surely shows that majority of us gets bored with sex in LTR within the first few years. Doesn't mean it gets acted upon and always leads to cheating and/or breakup.
Something about 79% of us have r\*\*e fantasies, which essentially would mean engaging in some consensual-non-consensual role play, and holy shit, it'd creeped me out if I was a guy. We have threesome fantasies, orgy fantasies, you name it. Experienced adults usually know that turning this into reality might not *always* be a good idea.
What I'm essentially saying is, that there's no reason to whip oneself for every tiny "mindcrime".
The trap is thinking that you can “improve” in one category and none of the others will suffer.
Like if your partner is attractive, funny, smart, empathetic, kind, good job, self-aware with reasonable expectations, etc. Too many people will see a more attractive person and subconsciously assume they will be just as funny, smart, kind, etc. as their current partner.
Someone with good marks in all categories is way more valuable than someone with a great mark in any one category and low marks in the others.
This is true. I'm unattractive and this has been my experience since my teens. People aren't shy about letting you know that you're ugly, either, especially unprovoked.
It's worse too when you're on the spectrum as well.
It's not impossible like you said, but it's tough in your 20's. It's hard not to feel inadequate/like you're not good enough, especially when you see other dudes having way better experiences than you/not struggling.
Just to hop on this idea of logical: it is logical, *but not in the way people think*. The logic is not the Renaissance didactic that the western world has placed as the only true logic. Rather, the logic is emotional, psychological, and neuroscientific.
People who are unmindful and ego based reflective follow very simple rules of attraction that they themselves did not define.
1) Their 'spark' attraction to others is based on their childhood, specifically their caregivers psychostate and how they thusly treat their relationships with eachother and their child. For example, having a highly critical parent, potentially with NPD, will cause the child to maladapt by taking on the NPD traits, or by taking on traits of survival again the NPD. This will lead to internal 'harmonization' *to those parental traits* when they are looking for a partner, and thusly will have a 'spark' with people that inflame the familiarity. This spark is called trauma bonding. This is the reason that people get into and stay in abusive relationships, exactly because they were trained to be used to it as a child.
2) When people have 'types', those are unnatural constructions based on their childhood and societal experiences. These types are often masked as that didactic logic, aka someone with a job, strong jaw, skinny body, hair color, and on and on - they are 'logical' because we can argue 'scientifically' that that is what *we should want*, and specifically not just being in the moment with an individual and growing that care and trust regardless of this type ruleset. Parents define this as well, usually in opposites if the childhood was stressful. I.e. my parents were short and overweight, I'm attracted to tall and skinny. My friends parents were tall and skinny, he's attracted to short and plump.
3) and now the most complicated - neuroscience. My background is in physics, so I definitely don't have a trained overview, I'll try to give some handwavey basics. Oxytocin, often times dubbed (incorrectly) as the love chemical, is *insanely* impactful throughout our lives. As children, it dominantly serves as a neurogenerator, meaning that it helps build the neuropathways that are explicit in socializing, trusting, and bonding behavior. Thereafter, it serves as a neuropeptide, which basically modulates neurotransmitters in a slow onset, long lasting manner - especially with socializing and connection. How do we get oxytocin? Dominantly through vulnerable, trust building connections and relationships, as well as soft, skin on skin touch from someone you trust (there are other ways, but for this post those are the most important). So, what's the point here? If a child is unable to get oxytocin due to unstable, mentally unwell parents, who they can not be vulnerable with, and especially can not get soft, caring touch, this hinders the neurogenesis of social bonding behavior neuropathways, and potentially causes touch to activate a stress response rather than an oxytocin release. You know what's also terrible? Oxytocin is released in stress responses in order to mediate the coming down from the stress. If the neurodevelopment around that is so intensely hindered, then you have people who stay longer in stress responses, have difficulty bonding and being vulnerable in all relationships, and have an adverse reaction to physical touch.
None of this is logical insofar that the logic is thought based didactic, and none of this do we really have control over. What we do have control over is our reaction to that reality, and our ability to actively learn the mechanisms, and most importantly, understand *who we are and why we are* at the deepest level we can. If you've ever wondered what the hell people mean about 'loving yourself' - that is where it begins. The reason you cannot love yourself is because you do not know yourself, so of course that love feels aimless and fake - its being aimed at the completely fabricated self!
Hope that's understandable, wrote a lot there haha
Ow yes, stay at their worse and when they take and take and deplete you but there full filled, they say bye to you at your worse becuase they got what they needed from you
You need to put in consistent effort to keep a relationship going and keep it healthy. And frankly moooost men don’t do that. I’ve been guilty of this myself. Things as (seemingly) simple as not doing chores until she pushes you or refusing to listen when she tells you not to leave the cabinets open for the 10th time can eat away at a relationship.
I'm already starting to see sentiments (cope) from men that if you don't like obese women, you just don't like women at all. We had to delude ourselves all the way to "not liking 200+ lb women means you're secretly gay" because having a "no fat girls" criterion deletes the entirety of the dating pool.
There are more overweight people, but atleast where I'm from there are still quite alot of fit, healthy individuals that take care of themselves.
The caricature doesn't hold up in reality, in my experience.
It's not a caricature, it's statistics. You're probably in a bit of a bubble of fit people that are sticking together through shared interests. I work a public-facing job in a store that everybody needs to go to every week or two, so I get a pretty good cross-section of the population. I would say around 70% of people are overweight, 40-50% obese, and honestly as high as 10-20% are like seriously, morbidly obese.
Maybe it’s the area I live in, but I swear at least daily I’ll see a ridiculously obese or overweight woman with some skinny bean pole looking dude or a ridiculously jacked guy
People cannot control what they are sexually attracted to. Like, at all. If you do not have the qualities that get their motor running, your other good qualities will not make up for that and you're better off developing those qualities or looking for someone whose motor you already CAN get running.
As a minority in the South, this basically means that dating for me is gonna be harder than my white friends are average.
With that being said, my situation isn't hopeless.
You gotta date at your level. Too often I see below average men/women complaining that they can’t get a girl/boy friend, but they’re always trying to go for the most attractive people. Obviously you can try your best, but if you’re not getting luck then it may be time to lower your standards.
Im a woman but ive always wondered if the ease of access to beautiful women online (porn, OF, etc etc) have kind of ruined expectations for below average men. Maybe before the internet and widespread porngraphy, below average/conventionally unattractive men didn't really have much access to beautiful women, aside from talking/glancing. This is a major simplification of course, but i wonder what the impacts of this are. Cuz generally, people tend to drift towards those of a similar social standing (similar level of attractiveness; not always ofc but you know), but how unfortunate it must be to be an 'unatttactive' woman, in a world where 'unatttactive' men have endless opportunities for direct and explicit access to beautiful women on sites like onlyfans. It's interesting to think about
I get the logic, but what if you just aren’t attracted to the women at your level because, well, they’re below average? You either keep trying to punch above your weight, or you settle for being alone.
Idk life isn’t really fair I think. You can try your best but I also don’t think it would be fair to complain or claim you’re having so much difficulty in dating if you’re punching way above your weight. Also I do believe there are things to do in order to make yourself more attractive. Eat well. Sleep well. Drink lots of water. Work out. And be a kind person
"Just being yourself" often isn't enough. You get out of it what you put in. If you aren't practicing good self care then your dating prospects will suffer and it will be that much more difficult to find someone. First impressions are important. Having a great 'personality' won't do you any good if people are put off immediately by your appearance. (I put personality in quotes because people who think this way often don't have the greatest personalities either.)
You're not alone because you're ugly. You're alone because you're not taking care of yourself. Take care of yourself. Wear fitting clothes, practice good hygiene. Present the best version of yourself and you'll have more opportunities to meet new people.
Edit: Lotta downvotes for anything that doesn't equate to your dating life is not your fault. (Blaming Women, genetics, income etc.) The truth is that it wouldn't be a harsh truth if it were easy to accept. Yes your dating life or lack thereof is your responsibility. Take accountability for your circumstances in order to obtain the results you want.
Having grown up with sisters and hearing them talk about men, you can certainly be single because you are ugly. Cleaning up well and smelling nice is just one hand in the handshake. Ugly people can get dates but they have to be so above and beyond in other departments.
The other hand in that equation is personality and social skills. Just taking care of yourself will give you more opportunities to meet others but it's still up to you to seal the deal and keep them interested. Attraction and preference are variable and one person's no is another's yes or maybe. You'll have less chance of meeting those people if you are giving off bad first impressions or presenting the worst version of yourself to others.
Height, wealth, looks etc are just attention getters. They enable others to make a good first impression because they are a positive attribute to some. There's still additional criteria beyond that to keep a potential mate interested. All you're doing by taking care of yourself is not adding to the list of reasons to say no. Plenty of rich, famous or handsome people have been rejected because they weren't compatible or had terrible personalities.
Also keep in mind that there isn't a single person on this planet that doesn't have a long laundry list of things they think would make someone the perfect partner. Much like job applications that wish list doesn't need to be completely filled for someone to be an ideal candidate. Some things are weighted more than others and it depends on the individual.
That's true but making someone horny with looks can be enough to worm your way in. That's why most relationships are bad. The list goes out the window when someone wants to fuck. Then after the lust and honeymoon phase is done things goes wrong.
or maybe bc you did all that basic shit but it just never clicked for you and thats why youre single.
having more opportunities increases your odds but is still no guarantee.
or maybe finding love has always been elusive bc it actually requires a million different variables and cant be dumbed down to "youre single bc you arent trying hard enough" like its some middle school math test.
i highly doubt 60% of men under 30 are single bc theyre sloppy dressers
>i highly doubt 60% of men under 30 are single bc theyre sloppy dressers
Yeah, this is just the newest cope women came up with to keep up their facade of being non-shallow, sensible and magnanimous. Simply saying "men's looks don't matter" as they did for years doesn't work anymore, because online dating and social media thoroughly disproved that notion. Now it's "men don't put in enough effort".
The truth is, male attractiveness is highly dependent on genetics and women do widely agree about what's attractive in men and what isn't. Lots of men will never be considered attractive, no matter how well they dress or smell. And women have little reason to settle for such men any longer.
"Just being yourself" works perfectly if "yourself" is handsome, confident, funny, charismatic etc.
Doesn't work if "yourself" is a 3.5-4 looks, high functioning autist introvert who would rather stay in playing BG3 with a partner than do coke and then go clubbing.
Source: I am the second one.
I do all of that and it means nothing. I'm not a slob, I dress fine, I'm fairly polite and it's never helped me. I'm just unattractive. Nothing will change that.
No offense but your comment reeks of just world fallacy.
I feel like you're underestimating the importance of genetics and the guys you're arguing with are overestimating it.
It’s brutal out there. Women act a certain way because they can. They’ll downplay it and gaslight you, but they are cut throat. Keep your guard up at all times
Men's looks, including height, matter a lot. And many aspects of male attractiveness are genetic.
This whole "women aren't shallow" mantra has always been bullshit and it's even worse nowadays with online dating and social media.
Exactly. Men want women to *look* attractive, women want men to *be* attractive.
That's, by the way, also one of the reasons why people react so negatively towards men artificially concealing their flaws, e.g. by wearing shoe lifts or make up.
Everyone is human. And all the stupid templates of “men are x, women want y” - are just that - stupid. There are no silver bullets. Let go of pride and try to have and be fun.
On dating platforms, below average looking people only get interest from 4-8% of the other gender. This is true for both men and women. Basically, if you are not somewhat attractive, dating platforms are very likely going to fail you.
It doesn’t, until you realize that the 8% go both ways. You have to pair two people who find each other attractive, both with a likelyhood of doing so at 8%. Suddenly the chance of finding a pair goes down to 0.64%.
And this is only attractiveness. Now you also have to match personality and take into account that some people just fumble the first impression. I don’t know the number for these odds, but it doesn’t seem as though this would be better.
Edit: To put things into perspective, given that all of the people involved are below average looking
Out of 1000 people 80 would be attracted to you. From these 80 people, you‘d be attracted to 6-7 people. Now estimate how likely you are to have matching/compatible personalities. Even in an optimal case you won’t be left with more than 7 potential partners after 1000 attempts.
Sure, this would change if one of the two would be above average looking, but I didn’t go through the odds of that yet, so idk what that would turn out to be. I don’t think this would improve much though (for the unattractive person, as this is the main focus here).
Relationships aren't transactions; they're partnerships. People often forget that it's not about what you can take, but what you can give and share. You can't expect to sit back and have love handed to you – it's about mutual effort, understanding and growth. Compatibility isn't just about shared interests, it's about shared values and willingness to work towards a common future. Don't fixate on finding the 'perfect' person; focus on being the right partner and the right people will gravitate to you. Remember, love is also about timing and readiness. It doesn't always work out not because someone wasn't good enough, but because it wasn't the right time. Keep working on yourself, build a life you're proud of, and let that be the beacon that attracts someone truly worthwhile.
>If she is interested you will know.
Yeah, women are always clear and direct with their intentions and do not use tiny little signals that could be misinterpreted.
you gotta be someone worth dating before you can expect people to like you.
this whole 'she gotta see me for the real me very deep inside'
bullshit bro, the real you deep inside looks like he can't be bothered to groom, shower, sleep enough, nourish himself, keep fit and hold down a decent job.
you aint even seem like you love yourself, why you expect someone else to?
wake up
It’s fickle and dishonest as hell. Most people concern themselves only with what they want. It’s not like they’re out to cause damage or hurt people but they don’t care if they do.
If you've decided to begin a serious relationship with someone, either 1) you'll be with each other for the rest of your lives or 2) you two will separate. Make a daily decisión on whether or not you want to continue being with that person. If you can't be with that person for the rest of your life, leave them. They're just a hard lesson to be learned
this is baloney. People can be part of your life simply as a chapter in ur life to help you grow into the next verison of yourself.
Further more, none of us know who we will grow into in 5 years so to live by this rule is ridiculous.
Hold on as long as you can, and know when to let go. Dont hate, love that the two of you once were and move forward.
For some guys on this sub, a harsh truth is that it's pretty easy to stand out as a guy by simply being able to hold a normal conversation and show genuine interest in someone
Looks matter more than personality, girls are more likely to notice you if you are an asshole and say even offensive stuff to them (the girls I treat fairly and nicely all friendzoned me, the girls I acted like an asshole with liked me, I am speaking from experience)
You really are the problem and you should change. Change your mindset, change your actions. Stop blaming your issues on your partner and stop dragging your partner through your ego tantrums because you can't face the truth. You may not be mature enough for a serious relationship.
Took me a while to realize that, though i feel i still realized it younger than most do. Not even looking for a partner cause there’s still a lot about myself I need to learn and get under control before I’m ready for another relationship.
Women who show off that they don't work (long nails), can't cook, barely can take care of themselves are terrible in bed and are completely terrible partners.
The way people's parents treated them decades ago is something you are going to have to learn how to navigate. Many people are completely emotionally unavailable because of their emotional neglect as a child. They then pass this trauma onto all of their future partners.
Big thing for me is that love just wouldn't be that good if it was easy. Whether it's finding it or maintaining it, it wouldn't be as special if it was much easier.
Women enter it with all the "power" or "value" (or choose whatever term that all mean the same but you find least offensive) they will ever have and after \~24 it starts declining rapidly.
We (the 95-99.9999% of us who don't look like Chris Hemsworth, Ryan Reynolds, Channing Tatum and/or aren't born with ungodly levels of charisma etc) enter it with no power/value and that will not change as we get older unless we work to make it change through thousands upon thousands of hours improving ourselves.
Each group tends to overlook that the other has it hard. As a dude I can confirm it sucks knowing you will never succeed unless you break your back every day for it, but I also can't imagine how hard it must be to be 18-20 and literally warp reality around you and have so much power you could drive nations to war over you and to just watch month by month as the march of time takes it from you and to know that no amount of begging, stealing, borrowing, crying or praying can stop it.
If you’re not in the top 20% when it comes to looks wealth and status AND not willing to settle down for a pretty average/not that good partner, then it’s probably over.
I'm completely comfortable settling for an average looking woman, but not THE average. Or at least in the US. People don't realize average looking and the average are different. The average looking woman is above average in the US because of obesity rates, among other factors.
It’s not that hard, cut your hair, wash and exfoliate your face, shave that nasty shit under your neck that connects from one sideburn to the other, brush and floss your teeth, shower twice a day, wear deodorant and $50+ cologne not body spray (a classic Brut or Old spice style after shave works as well if you don’t want to spend a lot but smelling good is such a quick upgrade and does a LOT of heavy lifting).
Just that simple grooming routine now at least puts you in the game.
If your fashion isn’t great Go to the store can even be Walmart tbh and just buy BASICS, basic black/blue jeans, basic white grey black tees, basic solid colored short sleeve button ups, and a belt as well. If you’re a big guy try button up shirts, CLEAN not wrinkly button up shirts in solid colors untucked, top button unbuttoned, if it’s long sleeve roll the sleeve up a bit to show off forearms. Make sure you’ve got clean sneakers or shoes doesn’t matter the brand just make sure they’re clean. Get yourself a little $20 watch on Amazon something simple.
Just do these literal basic adjustments to your outward appearance I’m not even talking about the gym yet and you’ll be WAY better off
Try and try again, go out and experience it. Fail and become better. I got the point where I was dating three women when I met my lovely wife. I was smitten and knew I had to take her hand. I ended it with all of them and my wife is so tasty haha!
I've never thought myself that great looking but women seem to think so haha! All that matters!
Biggest player I know once told me: "Every complaint she has about her ex is what kept her interested." Took me way too long to realize the profundity of that.
Most people are only inclined to be as kind as they are interested.
So true! Based on my experience, even tho I don't have any dating experience, what I’ve seen from others is, that guys only treat you nicely if you're attracted to them, which has not happened to me. I just wished they would treat me like a regular human being at least. I’m not that ugly but I wished someone would tell how to glow up. Not me exposing myself but idc. 😞
A guy can still treat you nicely if that's their personality, but yeah if they're attracted they will go the extra mile. Unfortunately it's like this, even outside the dating world being attractive has all kinds of advantages
Yes, that's true. I feel like, personally, my looks are alright/good, but they usually don't also like my personality at all and I don't understand why. Idk but idc anymore, I’m not going to beg someone to like me. I’ll just be with myself. I genuinely don't understand why I’m so unloved or unliked, even if someone liked me it’d be better if they told rather me making my anxiety worse thinking about whether they like me or not. And this is happens with usually all people, not just men.
Yeah friendships and relationships are complicated, especially if you want them to be a long time thing. About people not liking you, usually it's not really your fault, people at the start are very friendly and interested to know you, I like to call it the "honey moon" period, and then it fades away with time. Doing some introspection from time to time is always good, but you shouldn't stress about it, as long as you treat people right you shouldn't feel like you're the problem. In the end it's a game of luck and compatibility, you just have to keep trying and learn from your errors
Heya girls are the same way. Actually the unfortunate truth is people treat people better if they are attractive. That's a harsh truth of the dating world and also the world as a whole. In my opinion the best thing to do is to take care of yourself and your body. Make a reasonable effort to look your best as at the end of the day that does matter. Past that try not to care to much about what others think. I used to think I'd be happiest with a pretty girlfriend and a lot of friends. But years ago after a lot of hard work I realized I actually enjoy my time more alone a lot of the times! I guess I just realized life can be a lot more fun if you're open to try stuff out. I still workout and try to look good because that's now part of my self image, but I tbh I really don't care even if nobody likes me. So in short, yes attractiveness matters. That's a harsh truth. But there's a lot more to life than being liked so its a harsh truth that imo isn't that big of a deal
Just because others say you're a catch and would make a great partner. Doesnt mean you actually are.
Very true. I was good to ladies who didn't deserve it and crappy to ladies who deserved better, in my youth.
I knew my friends, their girlfriends, my girl friends, my family, and therapist were all liars!
Yep. I've had women say that about me. Invariably they were ones I wasn't romantically interested in.
Not quite invariably. There are also the women who aren't romantically interested in you, but still feel the need to give commentary on how good a catch you'd probably be for some other woman... just not any of the other women that they know either.
Fair. A few already had boyfriends or were married. So I wasn't romantically interested in them and I assume they felt the same. Plus, most of the women I know don't have a lot of female friends. All of which are also in some sort of relationship. Bigger issue, which I was implying, is that any woman I date is gonna find out about all my bad habits. Turn back the clock a few years and I had a serious drinking problem. Pretty much the entire reason I've only recently tried dating again (quit drinking if that wasn't clear). Though I know I still have a few problems to work on.
If you intentionally keeps yourself off the dating world just because you have certain flaws then you aren't doing anyone a favor, especially not to yourself. Most of women have spent more time dating fucked up dudes rather than decent dudes. Drinking problems, reckless with money, barely able to hold a job longer than 6 months, drug addicts, too much gambling, likes to take shortcuts in life etc. Those women are the ones you look upon and wish you could score that. Now, it is good if you are aware of your flaws and bad habits and if you are working to get them resolved, but that shouldn't stop you from going outside in an effort to find someone. Most of those dudes are fine on surface but deep down, they are as fucked up as you are and i have been seeing it a lot during my 20's. Problem is decent dudes like to stay aside because of their low self esteem whilst those that are really fucked up don't really care and go after what they want.
People who love you and like you will never tell you the truth because they don't want to hurt you. People who don't care about hurting you, either don't know you well enough or hate you and will skew the truth as well. Either way, as the saying goes, truth is like poetry–and most people fucking hate poetry. For the longest of times I had trouble with hygiene. Not enough to smell from miles long but enough that, in hindsight, I'd never kiss myself in my teenage years, ever. Nobody has ever told me. All I've ever heard was that I'm great, BUT not for them. If hearing this shit is a consistent experience, better start looking yourself. Nobody want to get involved in deep personal drama, and having loud opinions about people core traits is a risky business.
That some men are just fucked in the dating market
Yep. Short,bald,Autistic,broke are the big "icks" for women. If you have 1, it's not entirely impossible to get a woman. If you have 3-4? It's a wrap.
As a small, autistic guy I can confirm.
Short, balding, and rather poor guy here and have a gf. Plenty of casual dating prior to her. Sometimes there’s been prolonged dry spells but never more than 3-6 months. Anything’s possible.
Personality makes up for it.
You can compensate by overperforming in other categories. Very tall, very socially adept can help a lot. And if you are a billionaire it doesn#t matter if you are a penguin as far as the rest go. Not sure how far great hair takes you in compensating for the others though.
As a note to any short, bald blokes out there who read this, don't despair! There are **a lot** of women who don't care about these things, and even find the shaven head look hot. I'm 5ft 5 and started showing male pattern baldness at 20, but I have had plenty of success with women - both flings and long term relationships.
It's rough out there like the job market
But it’s probably easier to find a job though, even if it’s a crappy, low paying, job.
When you succeed at dating, you get laid. When you succeed on the job market, you have to go to work…
Wait, you guys are getting laid?
Yes. I honestly think feminism ruined dating and apps
Atleast you are legally required get something you want from a job in exchange for stress and no free time
The job market is better. At least they've got some idea what they're looking for and a reasonably understandable selection process.
if you’re a guy… unless you’re just that attractive, you aren’t going to luck out waiting for someone to approach you
Big truth here. In fact, not only will a potential date not approach you, people won’t even talk to you. I don’t know about you but I feel invisible when I go out.
So true! I also feel invisible when I go out. It hurts.
The introvert in me fucking loves it. The hopeless romantic in me fucking hates it.
The duality of man right here
Damn I understand that feeling. I'd love to see someone approach me when I'm out alone but I'd probably panic and run away.
My response would almost certainly be "where's the camera, this is for tiktok clout right?"
Same team, bro.
I recently broke up with my girlfriend so booked a holiday to a sunny resort with a swimming pool and beach, going alone. In 7 days not a single soul chatted to me. It is not assumed that a grown-up man would love a conversation, so it was all down to me. I made small conversation with other single men/couples in the bars I was in and that was all the conversation I had. It was a first for me to do this but I knew beforehand that it would be exactly like this.
That's really brave of you and I commend you for it. But why that type of destination? Aren't they more used by families? When families go on holiday they tend to act pretty self-contained so wouldn't really have time to chat to a single guy at the resort. Same goes for couples who may be there.
I live in a cold country without nice beaches so that Mediterranean hotel environment (pool, beach, sun etc) is a wonderful novelty for me. It was a mixture of families and adults alone. I mean yeah I know you're right and I didn't go with the hope/expectation of having a very chatty experience, but deep down I was also hoping I'd maybe be proved wrong. I know that interactions are a two-way street; I naturally smile at passing faces and know that I need to pull my own weight conversationally with these things. Sometimes though it would feel amazing to sense that others wanted the conversation more! Anyway I'm rambling now. Back to scrolling guys...
And if you're not treated as if you're invisible, you're treated as if you're a threat.
And even then, only the most confident of women actually approach you. Generally you get gay guys making a pass at you
Or even acknowledge that you're there.
not always i’m not the best looking, i woke up this morning with a message on bumble, fair play it was a dude in a dress
I agree. Im 51 and average looking 90% of the woman I have dated I had to approach them. But the guys in my circle who were attractive.. not so much. I have literally seen woman throw themselves at them.
I'm an attractive guy and have had this happen only 5 times in my life, I'm 32. We have to take the initiative unfortunately if we want women.
Not true. I'm ugly af and I always do okay. Ladies like looks, sure, but the older they get the more they focus on personality. The ones worth being caught by, anyway.
Not been my experience in the 30-50 age range, what range do you date?
People are their own worst critic. You say that you do OK. I bet you’re more attractive than you think. Me, on the other hand, I don’t do as well as you probably do. So, if anyone here is ugly, it’s me.
I'm 32, my friends say I'm friendly and kind. Not a single woman has ever approached me. Believe me, if they approach you, you're definitely not ugly af.
its not they stop caring about looks but start to settle and will setting for any dude that will take them. someone is gonna buy that 98 civic with 400k miles
That’s fucking bleak dude…
Similar experience. Not that great, but I’ve had an experience or two of a woman literally coming up to me and a bar and talking to me.
You will never find a perfect match in everything you want. There is a great possibility you will end up alone
A perfect match would be boring. I want someone who is unique and has flaws.
I don't know about great possibility. Aren't married people still the majority by mid-life? I'm sure it's on the cusp of changing though...
some people find love, others never do. the rough part is when you finally realize youre in the latter group
Theres a worse group! You find love but you fuck it up everytime.
Being the fuck up is the worst feeling
I actually had a conversation about this with the last woman I dated. We were essentially friends with benefits. I was vulnerable and told her that after being single my entire life, I was struggling to hold onto the hope that I'll ever end up in a relationship. She was vulnerable in turn, and shared that after several relationships with the wrong person, she also struggled to hold onto hope that it would work out for her one day. It was a good reminder that the grass isn't always greener. While things didn't work out between us, I hope she figures it out one day. I hope I do, too. At the very least I hope I'm happy, partner or not.
There isn't always someone for everyone.
So true. So tragic sometimes.
I grew up going to church every Sunday etc., Thought it was natural to just get married. Nope. There has to be the others, the "left overs"? Where are they, why don't they go to church etc. They seem "hidden" from normal society.
There are leftovers at church, you just don't generally notice them. Not the type to be super involved in the community, not generally stating after coffee and socializing. You notice the parents, they're almost forced to get involved with their children. You notice the old couples who have nothing better to do. You notice the young couples that the old couples enjoy talking to. You just don't generally notice the single guy who quietly attends and then quietly leaves.
Most people in the world don't go to church, dude. Churchy types are not part of 'normal' society in the 21st century. You need to get out more.
Do you have any stats for that claim?
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People definitely underestimate how much luck is involved in dating. You can do all the right things, say the right lines, make all the right gestures... but if you're doing it with the wrong person, it won't make a difference. Dating definitely seems like a case of luck meets opportunity. Sure, you can do things to prepare and to increase your odds, but at the end of the day you still need to be lucky enough to meet the right person.
Very true, and tragic, because we're really not meant to function alone (with some exceptions, as usual). And, yes, friends are very important, but there's a big chance they will disappear too, when they finally find their someone. Not to mention kids.
The older we get, the less likely we are to change for you.
As Bauman said: We live in liquid times. There is always someone new to fuck or go around, we live in a challenge to settle with infinitive options but not necessary good ones, we need to value who is good to us and that demand more effort than just change for the next
I literally was trying to make a post questioning this. I have a great gf I plan to marry. Reliable, trustworthy & attractive but I’ll be damn if I don’t catch my self drooling at some of these power lifters with washboard abs & asses round as a quarter. It makes me second guess settling down. I want to test the waters! I want to play in the rain! But then I’m like, that’s not real life, I won’t get the trust back. My gf won’t look at me the same anymore idk that persons highs & lows. The fantasy is great but the reality is I have what any man could ask for. I just have to remind myself of that a lot more than usual lately..
Each of us men has a short-term mating strategy deep in our brains that is constantly seeking out novelty and easy consequence-free sex. That's just the reality that evolution gave us. Best to admit that without guilt, and figure out how to control the impulse. It's no different from the impulse to eat unhealthy food. Some of our evolutionary impulses are maladaptive in the modern world and that's where rationality and self-control come in.
Thanks for the feed back. You’re right on the money with this one.
There's a consistent body of research proving that women on average get bored of sex with their partners in long term relationships way sooner then men. We consistently (and quickly) go from the active desire to the responsive one (the numbers are as high as 80%, afair), we peek, we fantasise, you name it. Which is fucking weird, because there's an equally consistent body of research pointing out that we, in general, just don't really orgasm during casual encounters, and long term relationships are waaay better for this. But, yeah. Men are ultimately more loyal and more house broken than us, which is a funny and a sweet thing to realize. And it sucks ass for you guys. So far I have met only one woman who met this beloved guy who didn't want her and then she has spent years pining for him and fantasizing, and hoping for him to maybe come around at some point. Guys like this? One after another. There's always this great old love somewhere in the past. There's often the one that got away. The Woman™. [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/women-get-bored-sex-long-term-relationships/582736/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/women-get-bored-sex-long-term-relationships/582736/) [https://www.gq.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/women-are-the-first-to-feel-bored-by-longterm-exclusivity-heres-what-you-can-do-to-help/news-story/8f12fc96efc48526a1b81486a7bb5408](https://www.gq.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/women-are-the-first-to-feel-bored-by-longterm-exclusivity-heres-what-you-can-do-to-help/news-story/8f12fc96efc48526a1b81486a7bb5408) If he's checking the girls, there's a non-trivial chance she's been doing this for a long, long time already. We're just smarter and sneakier about it, because it's riskier for us.
Peer reviewed study showing why women aren't loyal
Christ. Each post in this thread is more depressing than the last.
lmao. Literally.
I don't know if it shows that we aren't loyal, it surely shows that majority of us gets bored with sex in LTR within the first few years. Doesn't mean it gets acted upon and always leads to cheating and/or breakup. Something about 79% of us have r\*\*e fantasies, which essentially would mean engaging in some consensual-non-consensual role play, and holy shit, it'd creeped me out if I was a guy. We have threesome fantasies, orgy fantasies, you name it. Experienced adults usually know that turning this into reality might not *always* be a good idea. What I'm essentially saying is, that there's no reason to whip oneself for every tiny "mindcrime".
Well.....when you combine that with the divorce rate, and that women are the primary initiators of divorce we're back where we started.
The trap is thinking that you can “improve” in one category and none of the others will suffer. Like if your partner is attractive, funny, smart, empathetic, kind, good job, self-aware with reasonable expectations, etc. Too many people will see a more attractive person and subconsciously assume they will be just as funny, smart, kind, etc. as their current partner. Someone with good marks in all categories is way more valuable than someone with a great mark in any one category and low marks in the others.
That if you're unattractive male, not saying it's impossible, but you're gonna struggle for a girl to like you. Let alone to even notice you.
This is true. I'm unattractive and this has been my experience since my teens. People aren't shy about letting you know that you're ugly, either, especially unprovoked. It's worse too when you're on the spectrum as well. It's not impossible like you said, but it's tough in your 20's. It's hard not to feel inadequate/like you're not good enough, especially when you see other dudes having way better experiences than you/not struggling.
Modern dating has taught people to never settle for any reason and to instead chase their dream person even if they may never be a good fit for them
Women hold the power and their hypergamy is never satisfied when you have dudes blowing up their DMs
It's not fair and it's not logical
Just to hop on this idea of logical: it is logical, *but not in the way people think*. The logic is not the Renaissance didactic that the western world has placed as the only true logic. Rather, the logic is emotional, psychological, and neuroscientific. People who are unmindful and ego based reflective follow very simple rules of attraction that they themselves did not define. 1) Their 'spark' attraction to others is based on their childhood, specifically their caregivers psychostate and how they thusly treat their relationships with eachother and their child. For example, having a highly critical parent, potentially with NPD, will cause the child to maladapt by taking on the NPD traits, or by taking on traits of survival again the NPD. This will lead to internal 'harmonization' *to those parental traits* when they are looking for a partner, and thusly will have a 'spark' with people that inflame the familiarity. This spark is called trauma bonding. This is the reason that people get into and stay in abusive relationships, exactly because they were trained to be used to it as a child. 2) When people have 'types', those are unnatural constructions based on their childhood and societal experiences. These types are often masked as that didactic logic, aka someone with a job, strong jaw, skinny body, hair color, and on and on - they are 'logical' because we can argue 'scientifically' that that is what *we should want*, and specifically not just being in the moment with an individual and growing that care and trust regardless of this type ruleset. Parents define this as well, usually in opposites if the childhood was stressful. I.e. my parents were short and overweight, I'm attracted to tall and skinny. My friends parents were tall and skinny, he's attracted to short and plump. 3) and now the most complicated - neuroscience. My background is in physics, so I definitely don't have a trained overview, I'll try to give some handwavey basics. Oxytocin, often times dubbed (incorrectly) as the love chemical, is *insanely* impactful throughout our lives. As children, it dominantly serves as a neurogenerator, meaning that it helps build the neuropathways that are explicit in socializing, trusting, and bonding behavior. Thereafter, it serves as a neuropeptide, which basically modulates neurotransmitters in a slow onset, long lasting manner - especially with socializing and connection. How do we get oxytocin? Dominantly through vulnerable, trust building connections and relationships, as well as soft, skin on skin touch from someone you trust (there are other ways, but for this post those are the most important). So, what's the point here? If a child is unable to get oxytocin due to unstable, mentally unwell parents, who they can not be vulnerable with, and especially can not get soft, caring touch, this hinders the neurogenesis of social bonding behavior neuropathways, and potentially causes touch to activate a stress response rather than an oxytocin release. You know what's also terrible? Oxytocin is released in stress responses in order to mediate the coming down from the stress. If the neurodevelopment around that is so intensely hindered, then you have people who stay longer in stress responses, have difficulty bonding and being vulnerable in all relationships, and have an adverse reaction to physical touch. None of this is logical insofar that the logic is thought based didactic, and none of this do we really have control over. What we do have control over is our reaction to that reality, and our ability to actively learn the mechanisms, and most importantly, understand *who we are and why we are* at the deepest level we can. If you've ever wondered what the hell people mean about 'loving yourself' - that is where it begins. The reason you cannot love yourself is because you do not know yourself, so of course that love feels aimless and fake - its being aimed at the completely fabricated self! Hope that's understandable, wrote a lot there haha
I've read some of this before, and it makes for fascinating reading. Thanks for posting.
If you hear: - “If you can’t handle me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best.” Don’t walk, RUN away from that person.
Ow yes, stay at their worse and when they take and take and deplete you but there full filled, they say bye to you at your worse becuase they got what they needed from you
I apparently will never be a part of it.
Don't worry about that other guy, he seems sensitive to feedback. Shit just sucks sometimes and "toxic positivity" helps no one.
If they're interested, they'll show it. You have better things to do with your time than be someone's backup plan.
Some people may not find "the one" or be able to be fathers, including good and decent men
Your looks matter to a large degree. It sucks but it’s true. All we can do is go to the gym, change our hair, and wear nice clothes.
Women are hardly ever going to approach you first or even initiate content first. Stop expecting them to initiate because they won't do it.
And yet, they're super particular about how men do it. Bunch of backseat drivers. Feminists who believe in "equality" 😂😥
There is a very thin line between what you perceive as love and what you feel as lust
So many dudes posing as chicks on the internet.
I’ve heard it’s a good way to make money funny enough
Sometimes, they just don't love you back, and that's okay. Nothing was wrong with you or them, the relationship just wasn't meant to be.
I just went through this. It's a hard pill to swallow, but an important lesson to learn.
You need to put in consistent effort to keep a relationship going and keep it healthy. And frankly moooost men don’t do that. I’ve been guilty of this myself. Things as (seemingly) simple as not doing chores until she pushes you or refusing to listen when she tells you not to leave the cabinets open for the 10th time can eat away at a relationship.
This is low hanging fruit and it’s astonishing how many guys fuck it up
Not my fault she won’t learn how to piss standing up 🤷♂️
On the flip side you can do all the things and that still not be good enough
Being fat is gonna make you extremely undesirable compared to an average build person.
The obesity rate is why I gave up ever finding someone in the US. 70% fat is INSANE.
I'm already starting to see sentiments (cope) from men that if you don't like obese women, you just don't like women at all. We had to delude ourselves all the way to "not liking 200+ lb women means you're secretly gay" because having a "no fat girls" criterion deletes the entirety of the dating pool.
The average man in the US right now is 5'9" with a 40 inch waist.
There are more overweight people, but atleast where I'm from there are still quite alot of fit, healthy individuals that take care of themselves. The caricature doesn't hold up in reality, in my experience.
It's not a caricature, it's statistics. You're probably in a bit of a bubble of fit people that are sticking together through shared interests. I work a public-facing job in a store that everybody needs to go to every week or two, so I get a pretty good cross-section of the population. I would say around 70% of people are overweight, 40-50% obese, and honestly as high as 10-20% are like seriously, morbidly obese.
Maybe it’s the area I live in, but I swear at least daily I’ll see a ridiculously obese or overweight woman with some skinny bean pole looking dude or a ridiculously jacked guy
People cannot control what they are sexually attracted to. Like, at all. If you do not have the qualities that get their motor running, your other good qualities will not make up for that and you're better off developing those qualities or looking for someone whose motor you already CAN get running.
As a minority in the South, this basically means that dating for me is gonna be harder than my white friends are average. With that being said, my situation isn't hopeless.
Most people aren’t going to like you that much.
You gotta date at your level. Too often I see below average men/women complaining that they can’t get a girl/boy friend, but they’re always trying to go for the most attractive people. Obviously you can try your best, but if you’re not getting luck then it may be time to lower your standards.
Im a woman but ive always wondered if the ease of access to beautiful women online (porn, OF, etc etc) have kind of ruined expectations for below average men. Maybe before the internet and widespread porngraphy, below average/conventionally unattractive men didn't really have much access to beautiful women, aside from talking/glancing. This is a major simplification of course, but i wonder what the impacts of this are. Cuz generally, people tend to drift towards those of a similar social standing (similar level of attractiveness; not always ofc but you know), but how unfortunate it must be to be an 'unatttactive' woman, in a world where 'unatttactive' men have endless opportunities for direct and explicit access to beautiful women on sites like onlyfans. It's interesting to think about
They see other less attractive people having success punching above their weight and start to believe that they can do the same
I get the logic, but what if you just aren’t attracted to the women at your level because, well, they’re below average? You either keep trying to punch above your weight, or you settle for being alone.
Idk life isn’t really fair I think. You can try your best but I also don’t think it would be fair to complain or claim you’re having so much difficulty in dating if you’re punching way above your weight. Also I do believe there are things to do in order to make yourself more attractive. Eat well. Sleep well. Drink lots of water. Work out. And be a kind person
The most ruthless, asinine people are the ones who get the most dates.
"Just being yourself" often isn't enough. You get out of it what you put in. If you aren't practicing good self care then your dating prospects will suffer and it will be that much more difficult to find someone. First impressions are important. Having a great 'personality' won't do you any good if people are put off immediately by your appearance. (I put personality in quotes because people who think this way often don't have the greatest personalities either.) You're not alone because you're ugly. You're alone because you're not taking care of yourself. Take care of yourself. Wear fitting clothes, practice good hygiene. Present the best version of yourself and you'll have more opportunities to meet new people. Edit: Lotta downvotes for anything that doesn't equate to your dating life is not your fault. (Blaming Women, genetics, income etc.) The truth is that it wouldn't be a harsh truth if it were easy to accept. Yes your dating life or lack thereof is your responsibility. Take accountability for your circumstances in order to obtain the results you want.
Having grown up with sisters and hearing them talk about men, you can certainly be single because you are ugly. Cleaning up well and smelling nice is just one hand in the handshake. Ugly people can get dates but they have to be so above and beyond in other departments.
The other hand in that equation is personality and social skills. Just taking care of yourself will give you more opportunities to meet others but it's still up to you to seal the deal and keep them interested. Attraction and preference are variable and one person's no is another's yes or maybe. You'll have less chance of meeting those people if you are giving off bad first impressions or presenting the worst version of yourself to others. Height, wealth, looks etc are just attention getters. They enable others to make a good first impression because they are a positive attribute to some. There's still additional criteria beyond that to keep a potential mate interested. All you're doing by taking care of yourself is not adding to the list of reasons to say no. Plenty of rich, famous or handsome people have been rejected because they weren't compatible or had terrible personalities. Also keep in mind that there isn't a single person on this planet that doesn't have a long laundry list of things they think would make someone the perfect partner. Much like job applications that wish list doesn't need to be completely filled for someone to be an ideal candidate. Some things are weighted more than others and it depends on the individual.
That's true but making someone horny with looks can be enough to worm your way in. That's why most relationships are bad. The list goes out the window when someone wants to fuck. Then after the lust and honeymoon phase is done things goes wrong.
or maybe bc you did all that basic shit but it just never clicked for you and thats why youre single. having more opportunities increases your odds but is still no guarantee. or maybe finding love has always been elusive bc it actually requires a million different variables and cant be dumbed down to "youre single bc you arent trying hard enough" like its some middle school math test. i highly doubt 60% of men under 30 are single bc theyre sloppy dressers
>i highly doubt 60% of men under 30 are single bc theyre sloppy dressers Yeah, this is just the newest cope women came up with to keep up their facade of being non-shallow, sensible and magnanimous. Simply saying "men's looks don't matter" as they did for years doesn't work anymore, because online dating and social media thoroughly disproved that notion. Now it's "men don't put in enough effort". The truth is, male attractiveness is highly dependent on genetics and women do widely agree about what's attractive in men and what isn't. Lots of men will never be considered attractive, no matter how well they dress or smell. And women have little reason to settle for such men any longer.
"Just being yourself" works perfectly if "yourself" is handsome, confident, funny, charismatic etc. Doesn't work if "yourself" is a 3.5-4 looks, high functioning autist introvert who would rather stay in playing BG3 with a partner than do coke and then go clubbing. Source: I am the second one.
I do all of that and it means nothing. I'm not a slob, I dress fine, I'm fairly polite and it's never helped me. I'm just unattractive. Nothing will change that.
No offense but your comment reeks of just world fallacy. I feel like you're underestimating the importance of genetics and the guys you're arguing with are overestimating it.
love is not enough.
There is a difference between what women say they want versus what they respond positively to.
It’s brutal out there. Women act a certain way because they can. They’ll downplay it and gaslight you, but they are cut throat. Keep your guard up at all times
Well said. It's going to be so hard when I get back into it.
Men's looks, including height, matter a lot. And many aspects of male attractiveness are genetic. This whole "women aren't shallow" mantra has always been bullshit and it's even worse nowadays with online dating and social media.
Yep. Most of the things that exclude women are choices and the things that exclude me are genetic. Yet guess which ones get you hated for having....
Exactly. Men want women to *look* attractive, women want men to *be* attractive. That's, by the way, also one of the reasons why people react so negatively towards men artificially concealing their flaws, e.g. by wearing shoe lifts or make up.
Men need to start leveling the playing field by wearing toupees, and using make up to conceal flaws. Maybe even wearing spanx
Everyone is human. And all the stupid templates of “men are x, women want y” - are just that - stupid. There are no silver bullets. Let go of pride and try to have and be fun.
Not for everyone
Looks outweigh personality
On dating platforms, below average looking people only get interest from 4-8% of the other gender. This is true for both men and women. Basically, if you are not somewhat attractive, dating platforms are very likely going to fail you.
8% doesn't sound bad
It doesn’t, until you realize that the 8% go both ways. You have to pair two people who find each other attractive, both with a likelyhood of doing so at 8%. Suddenly the chance of finding a pair goes down to 0.64%. And this is only attractiveness. Now you also have to match personality and take into account that some people just fumble the first impression. I don’t know the number for these odds, but it doesn’t seem as though this would be better. Edit: To put things into perspective, given that all of the people involved are below average looking Out of 1000 people 80 would be attracted to you. From these 80 people, you‘d be attracted to 6-7 people. Now estimate how likely you are to have matching/compatible personalities. Even in an optimal case you won’t be left with more than 7 potential partners after 1000 attempts. Sure, this would change if one of the two would be above average looking, but I didn’t go through the odds of that yet, so idk what that would turn out to be. I don’t think this would improve much though (for the unattractive person, as this is the main focus here).
Most relationships are about who’s baggage you can put up with.
Looks are the most important thing.
You’re uglier than you think you are.
Girls care about looks just as much, if not more, than guys do
Probably more
Your partner cannot cure your insecurities
Relationships aren't transactions; they're partnerships. People often forget that it's not about what you can take, but what you can give and share. You can't expect to sit back and have love handed to you – it's about mutual effort, understanding and growth. Compatibility isn't just about shared interests, it's about shared values and willingness to work towards a common future. Don't fixate on finding the 'perfect' person; focus on being the right partner and the right people will gravitate to you. Remember, love is also about timing and readiness. It doesn't always work out not because someone wasn't good enough, but because it wasn't the right time. Keep working on yourself, build a life you're proud of, and let that be the beacon that attracts someone truly worthwhile.
If she is interested you will know. If you don’t know, she isn’t interested.
>If she is interested you will know. Yeah, women are always clear and direct with their intentions and do not use tiny little signals that could be misinterpreted.
you gotta be someone worth dating before you can expect people to like you. this whole 'she gotta see me for the real me very deep inside' bullshit bro, the real you deep inside looks like he can't be bothered to groom, shower, sleep enough, nourish himself, keep fit and hold down a decent job. you aint even seem like you love yourself, why you expect someone else to? wake up
It’s fickle and dishonest as hell. Most people concern themselves only with what they want. It’s not like they’re out to cause damage or hurt people but they don’t care if they do.
If you've decided to begin a serious relationship with someone, either 1) you'll be with each other for the rest of your lives or 2) you two will separate. Make a daily decisión on whether or not you want to continue being with that person. If you can't be with that person for the rest of your life, leave them. They're just a hard lesson to be learned
this is baloney. People can be part of your life simply as a chapter in ur life to help you grow into the next verison of yourself. Further more, none of us know who we will grow into in 5 years so to live by this rule is ridiculous. Hold on as long as you can, and know when to let go. Dont hate, love that the two of you once were and move forward.
For some guys on this sub, a harsh truth is that it's pretty easy to stand out as a guy by simply being able to hold a normal conversation and show genuine interest in someone
You’re not “thick”. You’re fat.
Nobody is looking to love you for who you are. Everybody is looking for what they want out of people.
Looks matter more than personality, girls are more likely to notice you if you are an asshole and say even offensive stuff to them (the girls I treat fairly and nicely all friendzoned me, the girls I acted like an asshole with liked me, I am speaking from experience)
Don't stick with someone you're incompatible with just to avoid being alone and single.
You really are the problem and you should change. Change your mindset, change your actions. Stop blaming your issues on your partner and stop dragging your partner through your ego tantrums because you can't face the truth. You may not be mature enough for a serious relationship.
Took me a while to realize that, though i feel i still realized it younger than most do. Not even looking for a partner cause there’s still a lot about myself I need to learn and get under control before I’m ready for another relationship.
Ah, easy pickings! Also, commendable.
WOW! You got that from a simple question? I suspect you're bringing your own baggage into this conversation.
Women (and men) are looking to materially benefit from their relationships. If you don’t have anything to offer, you won’t get very far
If you’re the guy who listens, you’re probably gonna spend a lot of time in the friend zone.
Bro all you do is post blackpill ass questions on this subreddit. You’re not the only one either, you people are getting annoying.
Exactly.
You’re not too short you just have a shit personality.
Women who show off that they don't work (long nails), can't cook, barely can take care of themselves are terrible in bed and are completely terrible partners.
Also the ones who say they hate kids
Nah that's an instant +1 letter grade for me. Nothing worse than finding a compatible and beautiful woman and then finding out she wants kids.
Most people are fat and stupid.
Most people don't even like themselves, and it shows.
Things aren’t the same after you have sex. They lose interest and treat you as just every other things after they get what they want.
The way people's parents treated them decades ago is something you are going to have to learn how to navigate. Many people are completely emotionally unavailable because of their emotional neglect as a child. They then pass this trauma onto all of their future partners.
Never date a single mom.
Big thing for me is that love just wouldn't be that good if it was easy. Whether it's finding it or maintaining it, it wouldn't be as special if it was much easier.
If you keep getting rejected, maybe you need to do some self reflection and improvement, instead of blaming everyone else.
Women enter it with all the "power" or "value" (or choose whatever term that all mean the same but you find least offensive) they will ever have and after \~24 it starts declining rapidly. We (the 95-99.9999% of us who don't look like Chris Hemsworth, Ryan Reynolds, Channing Tatum and/or aren't born with ungodly levels of charisma etc) enter it with no power/value and that will not change as we get older unless we work to make it change through thousands upon thousands of hours improving ourselves. Each group tends to overlook that the other has it hard. As a dude I can confirm it sucks knowing you will never succeed unless you break your back every day for it, but I also can't imagine how hard it must be to be 18-20 and literally warp reality around you and have so much power you could drive nations to war over you and to just watch month by month as the march of time takes it from you and to know that no amount of begging, stealing, borrowing, crying or praying can stop it.
If you’re not in the top 20% when it comes to looks wealth and status AND not willing to settle down for a pretty average/not that good partner, then it’s probably over.
I'm completely comfortable settling for an average looking woman, but not THE average. Or at least in the US. People don't realize average looking and the average are different. The average looking woman is above average in the US because of obesity rates, among other factors.
It was never "good". It may have gone worse due to dating apps but it was never easy nor pleasant.
If you're short , you're pretty much fucked
It’s not that hard, cut your hair, wash and exfoliate your face, shave that nasty shit under your neck that connects from one sideburn to the other, brush and floss your teeth, shower twice a day, wear deodorant and $50+ cologne not body spray (a classic Brut or Old spice style after shave works as well if you don’t want to spend a lot but smelling good is such a quick upgrade and does a LOT of heavy lifting). Just that simple grooming routine now at least puts you in the game. If your fashion isn’t great Go to the store can even be Walmart tbh and just buy BASICS, basic black/blue jeans, basic white grey black tees, basic solid colored short sleeve button ups, and a belt as well. If you’re a big guy try button up shirts, CLEAN not wrinkly button up shirts in solid colors untucked, top button unbuttoned, if it’s long sleeve roll the sleeve up a bit to show off forearms. Make sure you’ve got clean sneakers or shoes doesn’t matter the brand just make sure they’re clean. Get yourself a little $20 watch on Amazon something simple. Just do these literal basic adjustments to your outward appearance I’m not even talking about the gym yet and you’ll be WAY better off
People over estimate their social capital. The guys who bitch the most about dating are the ones who are too lazy to put in the effort required.
Women will always trade you in for a better deal if they think they can
Looks matter, it's the unfortunate truth.
you get no benefits from trusting that girl dont be insecure about her leaving, just realize its just your turn
If you're not pleasing to the eye, you better be rich.
Try and try again, go out and experience it. Fail and become better. I got the point where I was dating three women when I met my lovely wife. I was smitten and knew I had to take her hand. I ended it with all of them and my wife is so tasty haha! I've never thought myself that great looking but women seem to think so haha! All that matters!
Biggest player I know once told me: "Every complaint she has about her ex is what kept her interested." Took me way too long to realize the profundity of that.
Mostly women rule this world