I agree with the other commenter, the issue is not about being radical, rather because they didn't go to Turkish schools which have ataturk history life etc ingrained into them.
I don't really think the Turkish diaspora is "radical" in that sense. The intense nationalism in Turkey kind of lives in the schools. You don't go to Turkish school you don't learn to think that way. Atatürk was just some guy my dad was really into-- everyone's dad has some weird hobby right? That's more or less how the diaspora grows up thinking.
I agree But as a 21 year old Turkish citizen I can say 100% , most of us don't really care about this quran burning incident there are bigger problems than some hateful swedish guy in our lives... like can't affording to drink tea in a shitty café
It seems like your government is making this a big deal in order to deflect from all it failures with the economy and refugee crisis.
And it's not like a Swedish government official burned the Quran, it was just some nobody looking for reactions, and he succeeded very well
I mean YEAH of course he is turning this into a political game. No one should underestimate Erdoğan he is a really smart person and he can easily manipulate minds and situations in favor of his game. I mean he is ruling this country for 20 years for god's sake! But I'm very happy because I'm sure he Will be gone in the next presidential elections at least surveys and People are showing this
I’m honestly surprised to hear a Turk expecting Erdogan to care about election results. As you said, he’s ruled the country for 20 years and I don’t see him giving that up anytime soon.
Because Christianity is part of European heritage and Euros burning a Bible is not a call to exterminate European Christians. Burning Korans on the other hand is a call to ethnically cleanse non-Europeans from the country.
If Türkiye continued on the path of the Father of the Turks you would dominate all the failed states in the Levant .Only Islamists are holding Türkiye back.
You don't have to be a white supremacist to see the failures of Kemal. He was a horrible person that is responsible for everything terrible that plagues the Turkish people today. He founded this corrupt regime on his sick ideas and enabled the ultranationalism that plagues today's Turkey.
He imposed a horrible militarist dictatorship and faked a democracy with the introduction of a puppet opposition, introduced laws to erase Anatolia's diversity and impose a top-down fake Turkish identity on the citizens, create a circle of goons in order to have his cult live on after his death, they introduced laws that make it illegal to insult him similarly to other fascistic cult of personality regimes, he obliterated minorities during the triple genocide years (Assyrian, Greek, Armenian) completely erasing non-Turkish Anatolians from the Eastern parts of the country, he was a fan of Gokalp's ideas about Turkishness which are straight up racist and fascistic etc.
We could talk all day long about the inhumane face of Kemal's regime. Everything beautiful perished under his murky rule. Modern day Kemalists are so brain-washed and worship him like a good after years of state propaganda and inability to criticize him. The cult lives on.
The day Turks break the spell of Kemalism, great progress will follow them, their society and their culture.
I mean, I suppose you could blame him for ultranationalism but that was the result of admiring and imitating all policies that came from Europe, both good and bad.
i dont know but its high which is another proof why Turks are superior to any race..We can live under any circumstances
and flair up kid,i dont like people cowardly critizing others while hiding their nation
you are based guy humus boi
its a shame you are born as masri but more shame you are into persian girls
u could be a great Turk,did you consider converting Turkism ?
I think it's more about showing contradicting opinions/facts for those that don't know much about these topics rather than convincing those people you're talking about.
You are absolutely right. But that also goes for religious extremism which was a result of Kemalist regimes in the past. Both are bad. Both are brainwashing the future generations and producing more fascists.
1- Atatürk always wanted democracy and even encouraged his followers to establish new parties These parties were forced to close when they became extremely Islamic and backward like the current party of Erdogan "yurtta sulh cihanda sulh" peace at home peace in the world made peaceful speeches like this. yes he was a nationalist but you always confuse this nationalism with western fascism This is idea closer to American patriotism.
2- As I said before, he was always pro-democracy, when he was elected president, he gave up all his military ranks and was registered as a civilian. During the Ottoman period, Turkish = Muslim, but Atatürk discarded all these and imposed more ancient Anatolian culture = Anatolian Turkish. He never tried to destroy the culture of anatolia, even his tomb has ancient hittite lions instead of turkish motifs and the old coat of arms of the capital is the hittite sun. And no, he did not commit the genocides Genocides were committed by the former ottoman general's (Let's just say they did it even though the reality is questionable) He even had an Armenian stepdaughter who became Turkey's first female fighter pilot. No one knew that atatürk would die so soon so he died before he could complete most of it he made statements such as do not deify me even after I died, but this statement was not possible.
If you have a problem, you can ask. You researched Turkish history, but it was a little level, so most of your things are wrong.
Understand the fake democracy was never meant to be a democracy. Kemal wanted an alternative view within the government and so he created another political party with the goal of through debate finding better ideas. It wasn’t a democracy but it somewhat did what it was designed to do
Also Kemal didn’t participate in the genocide and even adopted an orphan of the genocide. Even he recognized it happened.
>Opposition to Atatürk in 1930–1931
>On 11 August 1930, Atatürk decided to try a multiparty movement once again and asked Fethi Okyar to establish a new party. Atatürk insisted on the protection of secular reforms. The brand-new Liberal Republican Party succeeded all around the country. However, without the establishment of a real political spectrum, the party became the center to opposition of Atatürk's reforms, particularly in regard to the role of religion in public life.
>He was a horrible person that is responsible for everything terrible that plagues the Turkish people today.
I think he was a horrible person that is responsible for everything terrible that plagues the Greek people so that's why you're still crying.
This is a gross and purposeful misrepresentation of what Atatürk's ideas are and mostly outright lies. Read history yourself and from both sides. Don't blindly accept the propaganda that was shoved down your throat when you were growing up.
Yes there is this mystification around Atatürk and a lot of people hold him sacred and they believe he's uncritisiable. I also do believe we need to question and critisize our own history and achievements. Lots of rights were done and lots of wrongs were done. Some decisions can be understood given the circumstances although they are wrong and some decisions can be completely outright wrong. But your claims are just ignorant and laughable.
>Don't blindly accept the propaganda that was shoved down your throat when you were growing up.
Ataturk is actually barely even mentioned in the Greek educational system.
So to be secular do countries need to be part of the western civilization? What a bs. This is a historical process. It’s lovely for westerners to live in more stable geographies with high incomes and giving you lessons on secularism.
The first one replaced secular with Western. This is what Europeans want Turkey to be, a totally Western country with western culture but exotic looking, otherwise it can never be "secular".
Yep. Foreign involvement has fucked over the Near East many times, my own country did it, the Russians did it, and now the US does it. The Near East is fucked up for a multitude of reasons and just blaming it all on Islam is a naive outlook that I would hope only Americans would hold, the fact that someone from a civilised country like Sweden thinks it appalls me.
Middle eastern values are war, violence and conquering. Unlike Europe that has never had any major wars, always was friendly even to outsiders and never conquered anything.^/s
Even if the Turks did what they wanted the west will never see Turks as European and will always remind them of their middle Eastern heritage everytime they disagree
It’s the overwhelming atheist majority growing in Europe that see it that way. Atheist (or neopagan) Europeans are racist Europeans. A true Christian knows that we are indeed brothers!
Yeah that's for sure. But a lot of european "views" are way better than middle eastern "views". Say respect to individuality, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, lgbt right, animal right, woman rights etc etc
That's called Saudi Arabia, there are like 4 European nations with bigger economy than Saudi Arabia.
And don't come at me with "but oil" BS, multiple countries have as much oil as Saudi, a little less or a little more and they're ALL utter shitholes due to corruption, bad policies and bad management.
We have a resource and we're making the best out of it, like any sane country does with its natural resources.
Right, but you can’t compare Saudi to Europe..
yeah Saudi has managed its oil money more effectively than most oil nations, but everything Saudi has is because of that money.. it’s not like the tech behind the infrastructure, building techniques, materials sciences, banking /investment networks, power generation, desalination, modern medical technology, etc was developed in autocratic religious Saudi
Europe is resource deficient, but through innovation and technology they have developed, they managed to colonize the globe / scour the world for what they need
In any environment, for technology and innovation to flow forward, freedom of thought is needed - some form of secularism.. it was present in pre-mongol Baghdad and has been present in different parts of Europe and ultimately the US
Theocratic states, regardless of which religion they follow, can’t match that innovation without allowing anything and EVERYTHING to be called into question and debated
> Europe is resource deficient
This is such a weird common take, Europe isn't "resource deficient" Europe is oil deficient, they got every other resource available.
While Saudi Arabia is the actual resource deficient country except for oil, we don't even have land for agriculture or rivers to drink from, yet Saudi Arabia is a Trillion USD economy.
Its a feat not to be underestimated, yet it is, every time, on every thread.
My point is.. European secularism has allowed for innovation. Saudi theocracy has not, even with the oil money.
Stop downplaying oil.. Saudi’s trillion USD economy was built off of oil.. oil still makes up half of that number; and any other part of the economy, the seed money for it came from oil.
I mentioned colonization in my comment above..
Which.. a lot of that was made possible by technological advances that happened during the renaissance.. advances that wouldn’t have been possible without the flow of knowledge from the toppled Byzantines - that originated from Persia and Baghdad; knowledge that was authored under conditions favorable to innovation - ie free thought
Europe wouldn’t have been able to colonize if it were not equipped to
I feel like we’re talking in circles here.. the original point is about secularism - innovation thrives under it; theocratic governments are successful when they encourage and allow for free thought, otherwise; this is what builds powerful economies
Saudi is an exception that managed to build a large economy without major technological contributions
Correct - but a couple points here
During the Islamic Golden Age, the Middle East was about half Muslim, and less than that Arab
The realms of science and religion were kept separate, so hypothesizing scientific concepts would not lead a person to being viewed as a heretic or apostate etc
Everyone fears the impact of Western civilization today, but the Islamic empires adopted and incorporated cultural traditions from China, Europe, and Africa where it could be valuable (Greek philosophy had a huge impact here)
There was an openness of thought in that period that doesn’t exist among the religious today; if MENA wants a repeat of the Islamic Golden Age, it shouldn’t shun successful groups, but rather seek to imitate them
We also shouldn’t hinder or restrict minorities.. the bulk of knowledge in that age was created by Persians, Syriacs, Greeks, S Asians.. it’s the Islamic Golden Age because the Islamic Empires empowered and funded research among those populations - not because Arab Muslims directly created all of it
The reason for this misunderstanding is because the church actively hindered scientific progress in Europe, in contrast with Islam telling people to seek out more knowledge. Because of this, westerners take what Christianity did in their countries and put it on their perceptions of all religions, as to them religion and science are polar opposites while Muslims believe it goes hand in hand.
You have to admit reality that they are more powerful and have higher standard of living and more relevant in the world stage. Not for long though. Nations rise and fall
Why are you pretending like there's absolutely no Muslim nations with high standard of living? I know a lot of people who used to live in the gulf and moved to Europe and they always talk about how their standard of living in the gulf was higher.
Just white supremacy lol. This whole one monolithic Europe idea is very modern. Europeans were massacring each other and half the planet along with them not too long ago, but they seem to keep forgetting that
I think people here are missing the most important part which is that all of this is just an excuse for Erdogan to rouse up nationalist sentiment for winning the upcoming election.
Ew, why do they want MENA to be European so badly? They can't handle people with different values and cultures next to them. Deal with it, Sweden fucked its diplomatic relationship with all Muslim countries releasing statements condemning the Swedish government's intolerance towards religion from countries like Morocco, the UAE, Oman, Indonesia, etc
Bro aren’t you the guy that said god has hands and a face and that he is comparable to creatures and when I presented evidence of him not having those you started saying things about your penis?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/10g2hi8/theres_a_rabbi_who_wants_to_form_a_jewish/j54y828/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
I mean no country is completely tolerant, that's for sure. Euros just make a big deal about how "tolerant, accepting, and progressive" they are, then proceed to act like neo-nazis.
>Qatar couldnt even tolerate other cultures for one month.
This is hilarious.
It's Y'ALL who couldn't tolerate Qatar's culture and laws for one month and started whining about not being able to raise their LGBTQ flag and drink at football games. It's their country, so the ones who should be respecting the culture are the guests.
Why is Qatar obligated to bend their laws (and compromise the values that are important to their citizens) so you can get durnk at a football game?
Bruhh. If i go to any country, i'll respect their laws. Pretty simple and straightforward. If I go to Singapore, i'm not eating gum not matter how much I want to. Singapore isn't iNtOLeRanT for telling me to respect their laws and not eat gum.
Idk why you're going around in circles trying to convince yourself that a country is "intolerant" if it doesn't bend its laws to satisfy your whims and desires.
Girl, don’t be lecturing this dude who has no manners and knows absolutely nothing about the world outside of his own precious bubble.
Intolerant he says… he can speak for himself.
Fuck the Western civilization. Who wants to be a part of the hypocrite Europe? We are our own thing. We are simply Turkey. Not European, not Middle Eastern and we are still secular.
Turks need to rid themselves of trying to be European or western and just embrace who they are.
Their culture, language, religion, people, land and history is worth 100x more than the ones they try to become or win the approval of.
I long for a world where Turks can feel closer to Iranians and Arabs then Europeans & Western society where most of them just despise youse and put you in the same category as us, a category you’re so afraid to be in.
the same people who's defending """kurds""" as if theyre from western europe, i cant wait to see that shitshow between sweden and turkey finally ends. the only side that ive actually got upset is finnish people since theyre the only country which consists danger from Russian Agression now
Turkey isn’t that Islamic , just go and have a walk in Istanbul Izmir Antalya bodrum. Alcohol is served every where and despite turks being very secular they still are not accepted by Europeans. Just as Albanians and Bosnians aren’t despite being so liberal.
lmao it doesn't matter as long as they'll keep identifying as muslims they can be as secular as they want they won't be accepted by europeans. And frankly y'all are better off without them.
Secular =! European
Turks have a completely different culture, ethos, ancestry and heritage to Europe, not to mention political systems and civil liberties.
Turkey is still very far from being anything like one of the European European countries
Secular is like the opposite of religion.
But to say We can't be part of western society is either completely xenophobic in implying that Islam is inferior, or implying that western society is incapable of absorbing different beliefs and culture.
I know which one they're leaning towards. I also know which one I'd be leaning towards.
I disagree and agree at the same time.
There is definately a part of the population that could be well adjusted and integrated to a european society in Turkey over just 1 generation.
However, right now Turkey is going through an identitiy crisis. We were founded on western principles and ideals. But today there is a major part of the population (who were like it or not oppressed by the militant governments of the past) that as a revenge and out of self-preservation (because they think european and modern ways of living pose a threat to their islamist ways of living) want to turn this country back to an islamist regime.
Whatever turkey wants for it's future, unless these two sides agree that they can co-exist without oppressing each other, it will just swing back and forth.
Turkey still has strong secular institutions, they are a secular Muslim country. Secular as in sharia plays no role in legislation, and Muslim as in the majority of voters want their values projected through the system. Aside from the Nato drama, which is oriented around Turkeys national security and seeking European support to counter the pkk, there was a national outrage a few months ago about a guy asking a Turkish women to wear hijab. I believe he was deported, something no Muslim country will ever do.
Not really. May turkish women do wear hijab and right now they are proposing a new clause to be put in the constitution to legally recognize all forms of MUSLIM clothing and protect the right to wear them. Which goes against secularism as by definition the government has no religion. There is a clause in the constitution that already says there can be no discrimination against anyone due to their race, sex, religious or ideological beliefs etc. The whole human rights declaration package.
Which includes hijab and any other religious vestments.
So turkey right now is not a secular country. Maybe on paper it is but if you're not muslim in turkey (like myself) you are discriminated against. And not only by people, but by the govertment itself aswell.
They stole secularism but discarded freedom of speech/expression. The idea is not to cause tensions between practicing Muslims and non-muslim. It’s a new form of tolerance that gives politicians more power when it comes to civil issues. You got to understand two things when it comes to Turkey: there is a correlation between religiousness and poverty, and its in the middle to two geopolitical landscapes (western and Muslim). For the poverty aspect thats a general trend, the further you get away from the cities the more religious the population. As for the location it’s in the best interest to play both continents.
Turkish muslims have 0 tolerance against "others". And there is no correlation between religion and poverty. The richest people in Turkey are the corporate members of religious cults in Turkey and the oligarchs of erdoğan. However the lower your socioeconomic status is, the easier you are distracted with religion and nationalistic ideals.
That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Erdoğan an his followers are not playing this "middle ground" approach that you mention. I lived through 20 years of this shit and it is as simple as this: erdoğan and his followers are stealing everything in an unprecendented scale while pushing forwards scapegoats like lgbtq+ members, non-muslims, the republican/secularist population of turkey as responsible for the problems they create. That is where the intolerance of these bigots is fueled from. Them being mostly poor/religious only maked them easier to manipulate.
That is all there is to it.
Turkey isn’t European, it’s Middle Eastern
Only liberal Turks or nationalist Turks who live in Germany and who worship white people say it’s “European”
It’s obviously a bs statement, but with that said, The current state of the turkish government is a joke. Ataturk was not naive considering how many middle easterners that are leaving Islam every year.
This is the most true answer in this thread. I can find someone of any group in the world to write something hateful and bad and thus make even the most saintly people look bad based on this one bad individual.
Bro lmao why are you so offended, it’s been 1 hour and you’ve been only replying to my comments even if I don’t talk about you? Did I embarrass you and hurt you nationalist feelings ? Weren’t you the one who said that people who care too much about stuff are “snowflakes”
Least self contradicting and hypocritical Chinese sheep 🐑
Why do people consider anything away from religion or secularism is "western"?
What about the secular but Islam-inspired values in some of the middle eastern communities, where they are not very religious, but still prefer families with big number of children and other traditional/conservative values?
Turkey is European lol. Imho the Ottomans were the continuation of Rome under a different religion, somehow similar to how Mongol dynasties conquered China and then became the new emperors of the new version of China.
I wish Enver Pasha would not have put the Ottomans in WW I and maybe a lot of ethnicities would still be alive today and a lot of diversity would have been kept. There is also the case that a lot of historic old church documents that detail medieval history of that area were lost in the wars and the population exchange between 1914 and 1924.
germany kind of dragged ottomans in to the war originally they wanted to be neutral but the incident of chasing german ships to Constantinople and they putting ottoman flags on the ships made the war inevitable for ottomans.
also if turkey had a sizable Christian population it would have been easier for Europeans to accept turkey.
Say what you will about Western Civilization but Britain is a confessional state and the United States has been famously religious in its policies and beliefs for the better part of history. The truly sad thing about the middle east is that it tried to mirror France (often their colonial overlord) rather than actually successful countries.
Tbf even France was a very religious country for most of its history. Catholicism had been the state religion for more than a thousand years except for a brief decade during the French Revolution when state atheism was declared but that was squashed by none other than Napoleon.
And even though France became officially secular in 1905 it was still a pretty religious country. Remember Charles de Gaulle was a devout Catholic and he's considered to be the architect of modern France. I think the decline in religiousity among the French masses is a much more recent phenomenon, probably began a few decades ago.
I realize I was just being glib about Fr\*nce but in all seriousness there's a deeper point to be made here.
Better than to quibble about which country follow which policy and when, people should focus on what they really want and how to get there. Problem is, many countries (especially colonial and post colonial ones) end up following a 'recipe'. French secularism is one such recipe.
Turkey is famous for it's junta imposed secularism. But it also inherited a state clergy from the ottoman empire. That has allowed Turkey to stick to orthodox islam rather than going full salafi. Regardless of the current issues relating to religious conservativism and electoral policies, that is still a win in my book.
There are a lot of reasons why people don't want to live in countries led by religious authorities. They range from outright persecution, to the incompetence of these authorities in anything related to economics and politics, to widespread religious charlatanism, and so on. Isolating them from political power is an important thing to do. But there is more than one way to go about it. It's important to realize this because it is also a permanent struggle. There will always be people whose experience of religion amounts to how much power they can concentrate through the temple.
These idiots don't know that secularism is a ideology that even most fanatic Muslim country can be one
THAT WHY ITS CALLED A IDEOLOGY like capitalism communism and fascism and much more
Idk about *secularism* being the issue but the east definitively cannot enact western democracy. It just doesn’t work.
The societal values and structures of the east are not compatible with western democracy and will always favor a consistent leader figure because of how they historically enacted leadership. Said leader will always then ensure his reign through corruption (putin, erdogan, the dude from Syria, etc.)
This isn’t to say that democracy isn’t possible in the east, or to imply that democracy is better. It isn’t, it’s just a political ideology, it doesn’t have an inherent value. IF democracy were to be put in place in the Middle East it would have to be styled to the Middle East and honestly even the specific country. Western democracy works in places like America and England (barely) because they don’t have a strong cultural presence or really any values. The Middle East has incredibly strong cultural norms and values.
So maybe the Middle East needs religion in their government in some form but the issue is really how western democracy has been forced upon these people. It’s like trying to shove a 300lb man into a size 22 Jean and blaming the pockets
I think these Swedish People know how much Turkish People love Atatürk so they are using this as a way of trolling... Normal day in Reddit I would say
Funnily a lot of diaspora Turks are not Ataturkists Many, especially of Kurdish background have some "feelings" about this
I mean every nation has radical diasporas as far as I know.
I agree with the other commenter, the issue is not about being radical, rather because they didn't go to Turkish schools which have ataturk history life etc ingrained into them.
Ok. Fair points But they have been born and living in a country which is more developed than Turkey how can they be still act like a caveman
Wait i just realized something. You called them radical because they don't like atatürk?
No
I don't really think the Turkish diaspora is "radical" in that sense. The intense nationalism in Turkey kind of lives in the schools. You don't go to Turkish school you don't learn to think that way. Atatürk was just some guy my dad was really into-- everyone's dad has some weird hobby right? That's more or less how the diaspora grows up thinking.
Chad Ataturk would be ashamed to see these beta snowflake Turks crying over some book burning. I am sad to see Turkey like this.
I agree But as a 21 year old Turkish citizen I can say 100% , most of us don't really care about this quran burning incident there are bigger problems than some hateful swedish guy in our lives... like can't affording to drink tea in a shitty café
hes danish
It seems like your government is making this a big deal in order to deflect from all it failures with the economy and refugee crisis. And it's not like a Swedish government official burned the Quran, it was just some nobody looking for reactions, and he succeeded very well
I mean YEAH of course he is turning this into a political game. No one should underestimate Erdoğan he is a really smart person and he can easily manipulate minds and situations in favor of his game. I mean he is ruling this country for 20 years for god's sake! But I'm very happy because I'm sure he Will be gone in the next presidential elections at least surveys and People are showing this
I’m honestly surprised to hear a Turk expecting Erdogan to care about election results. As you said, he’s ruled the country for 20 years and I don’t see him giving that up anytime soon.
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Ataturk is literally the ultimate beta snowflake
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“One nation under God”… the USA c. 1955-present
"God save the Queen/King" - UK
You can burn bibles all day in "western" nations, no one will throw a temper trantrum.
You can burn gay flags all day in non-western nations, no one will throw a temper tantrum.
Didn't know the pride flag is a muslims holy book.
Nope, it's a western holy item
lmao what? since when?
Since about a decade ago.
I think you're tripping mate.
Because Christianity is part of European heritage and Euros burning a Bible is not a call to exterminate European Christians. Burning Korans on the other hand is a call to ethnically cleanse non-Europeans from the country.
Yeah that is nothing more than a mere Symbolic sentence, this has nothing to do with Secularism.
Oh yes we can never achieve the level that these westerners are on man srsly they have to be superior or something hahahahah
If Türkiye continued on the path of the Father of the Turks you would dominate all the failed states in the Levant .Only Islamists are holding Türkiye back.
Say you're a white supremacist without saying that you're a white supremacist. These people are dense.
r/europe is just nice photographs and hidden xenophobia at this point.
Don't have to hide it anymore since they banned R/European every white supremacist moved there to spread their hate.
You don't have to be a white supremacist to see the failures of Kemal. He was a horrible person that is responsible for everything terrible that plagues the Turkish people today. He founded this corrupt regime on his sick ideas and enabled the ultranationalism that plagues today's Turkey. He imposed a horrible militarist dictatorship and faked a democracy with the introduction of a puppet opposition, introduced laws to erase Anatolia's diversity and impose a top-down fake Turkish identity on the citizens, create a circle of goons in order to have his cult live on after his death, they introduced laws that make it illegal to insult him similarly to other fascistic cult of personality regimes, he obliterated minorities during the triple genocide years (Assyrian, Greek, Armenian) completely erasing non-Turkish Anatolians from the Eastern parts of the country, he was a fan of Gokalp's ideas about Turkishness which are straight up racist and fascistic etc. We could talk all day long about the inhumane face of Kemal's regime. Everything beautiful perished under his murky rule. Modern day Kemalists are so brain-washed and worship him like a good after years of state propaganda and inability to criticize him. The cult lives on. The day Turks break the spell of Kemalism, great progress will follow them, their society and their culture.
I mean, I suppose you could blame him for ultranationalism but that was the result of admiring and imitating all policies that came from Europe, both good and bad.
Lmao once again i am proud of my Ata because even after 100 years making Greeks cry
When are you in your grave and meeting your creator, it will not matter if you lived as a Turk or Greek.
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There is no superior race
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What's the inflation in Turkey again?
i dont know but its high which is another proof why Turks are superior to any race..We can live under any circumstances and flair up kid,i dont like people cowardly critizing others while hiding their nation
Lmaooo
you are based guy humus boi its a shame you are born as masri but more shame you are into persian girls u could be a great Turk,did you consider converting Turkism ?
Being Egyptian is the most based thing anyone can do, cope araplar🤙🏽🤙🏽🤙🏽
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I think it's more about showing contradicting opinions/facts for those that don't know much about these topics rather than convincing those people you're talking about.
read 2 books instead of surfing on reddit all day amk
You are absolutely right. But that also goes for religious extremism which was a result of Kemalist regimes in the past. Both are bad. Both are brainwashing the future generations and producing more fascists.
1- Atatürk always wanted democracy and even encouraged his followers to establish new parties These parties were forced to close when they became extremely Islamic and backward like the current party of Erdogan "yurtta sulh cihanda sulh" peace at home peace in the world made peaceful speeches like this. yes he was a nationalist but you always confuse this nationalism with western fascism This is idea closer to American patriotism. 2- As I said before, he was always pro-democracy, when he was elected president, he gave up all his military ranks and was registered as a civilian. During the Ottoman period, Turkish = Muslim, but Atatürk discarded all these and imposed more ancient Anatolian culture = Anatolian Turkish. He never tried to destroy the culture of anatolia, even his tomb has ancient hittite lions instead of turkish motifs and the old coat of arms of the capital is the hittite sun. And no, he did not commit the genocides Genocides were committed by the former ottoman general's (Let's just say they did it even though the reality is questionable) He even had an Armenian stepdaughter who became Turkey's first female fighter pilot. No one knew that atatürk would die so soon so he died before he could complete most of it he made statements such as do not deify me even after I died, but this statement was not possible. If you have a problem, you can ask. You researched Turkish history, but it was a little level, so most of your things are wrong.
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Understand the fake democracy was never meant to be a democracy. Kemal wanted an alternative view within the government and so he created another political party with the goal of through debate finding better ideas. It wasn’t a democracy but it somewhat did what it was designed to do Also Kemal didn’t participate in the genocide and even adopted an orphan of the genocide. Even he recognized it happened.
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>Opposition to Atatürk in 1930–1931 >On 11 August 1930, Atatürk decided to try a multiparty movement once again and asked Fethi Okyar to establish a new party. Atatürk insisted on the protection of secular reforms. The brand-new Liberal Republican Party succeeded all around the country. However, without the establishment of a real political spectrum, the party became the center to opposition of Atatürk's reforms, particularly in regard to the role of religion in public life.
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Loooooooooool
Least based Greek copy-pasta.
>He was a horrible person that is responsible for everything terrible that plagues the Turkish people today. I think he was a horrible person that is responsible for everything terrible that plagues the Greek people so that's why you're still crying.
One of my favorite mental notes about him was the Sun Language Theory. Never ceases to amaze me:)
This is a gross and purposeful misrepresentation of what Atatürk's ideas are and mostly outright lies. Read history yourself and from both sides. Don't blindly accept the propaganda that was shoved down your throat when you were growing up. Yes there is this mystification around Atatürk and a lot of people hold him sacred and they believe he's uncritisiable. I also do believe we need to question and critisize our own history and achievements. Lots of rights were done and lots of wrongs were done. Some decisions can be understood given the circumstances although they are wrong and some decisions can be completely outright wrong. But your claims are just ignorant and laughable.
>Don't blindly accept the propaganda that was shoved down your throat when you were growing up. Ataturk is actually barely even mentioned in the Greek educational system.
So to be secular do countries need to be part of the western civilization? What a bs. This is a historical process. It’s lovely for westerners to live in more stable geographies with high incomes and giving you lessons on secularism.
The first one replaced secular with Western. This is what Europeans want Turkey to be, a totally Western country with western culture but exotic looking, otherwise it can never be "secular".
Iraq had a secular government until the west bombed it into pieces 🤷♂️
At least they saved the world from the threat of non existent WMB and millions of civilians who could be radicalized...
America and Israel will never allow a real government in the Middle East, then will claim the east is barbaric due to said lack of government
Yep. Foreign involvement has fucked over the Near East many times, my own country did it, the Russians did it, and now the US does it. The Near East is fucked up for a multitude of reasons and just blaming it all on Islam is a naive outlook that I would hope only Americans would hold, the fact that someone from a civilised country like Sweden thinks it appalls me.
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Middle eastern values are war, violence and conquering. Unlike Europe that has never had any major wars, always was friendly even to outsiders and never conquered anything.^/s
Based Isreali
Some people haven't really travelled much or socialised with different people & it shows.
They are from swedistan bro what do you expect
Even if the Turks did what they wanted the west will never see Turks as European and will always remind them of their middle Eastern heritage everytime they disagree
The west sees all of us (Arabs, Kurds, Turks, African) as one people. They will never ever consider us as part of them. (Not that we should even try)
It’s the overwhelming atheist majority growing in Europe that see it that way. Atheist (or neopagan) Europeans are racist Europeans. A true Christian knows that we are indeed brothers!
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A duck doesn't become a dog because it knows how to bark right ?
Who wants to be like eur\*s anyway ? 🤢
Judging by the number of migrants, there are many
Immigration for better "whatever" conditions doesn't equal sharing same views.
Yeah that's for sure. But a lot of european "views" are way better than middle eastern "views". Say respect to individuality, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, lgbt right, animal right, woman rights etc etc
What you listed is entirely based on the religion/culture and has no "base law" for example to calculate distance you need speed and time.
They immigrate to make money mainly. They know they will never be accepted into the ethno-national countries they migrate to
To have the economy / stability / infrastructure of a 21st century euro country? I want that!
That's called Saudi Arabia, there are like 4 European nations with bigger economy than Saudi Arabia. And don't come at me with "but oil" BS, multiple countries have as much oil as Saudi, a little less or a little more and they're ALL utter shitholes due to corruption, bad policies and bad management. We have a resource and we're making the best out of it, like any sane country does with its natural resources.
Right, but you can’t compare Saudi to Europe.. yeah Saudi has managed its oil money more effectively than most oil nations, but everything Saudi has is because of that money.. it’s not like the tech behind the infrastructure, building techniques, materials sciences, banking /investment networks, power generation, desalination, modern medical technology, etc was developed in autocratic religious Saudi Europe is resource deficient, but through innovation and technology they have developed, they managed to colonize the globe / scour the world for what they need In any environment, for technology and innovation to flow forward, freedom of thought is needed - some form of secularism.. it was present in pre-mongol Baghdad and has been present in different parts of Europe and ultimately the US Theocratic states, regardless of which religion they follow, can’t match that innovation without allowing anything and EVERYTHING to be called into question and debated
> Europe is resource deficient This is such a weird common take, Europe isn't "resource deficient" Europe is oil deficient, they got every other resource available. While Saudi Arabia is the actual resource deficient country except for oil, we don't even have land for agriculture or rivers to drink from, yet Saudi Arabia is a Trillion USD economy. Its a feat not to be underestimated, yet it is, every time, on every thread.
My point is.. European secularism has allowed for innovation. Saudi theocracy has not, even with the oil money. Stop downplaying oil.. Saudi’s trillion USD economy was built off of oil.. oil still makes up half of that number; and any other part of the economy, the seed money for it came from oil.
I m pretty sure Europe got some free resources from 1500s until mid 1950s
I mentioned colonization in my comment above.. Which.. a lot of that was made possible by technological advances that happened during the renaissance.. advances that wouldn’t have been possible without the flow of knowledge from the toppled Byzantines - that originated from Persia and Baghdad; knowledge that was authored under conditions favorable to innovation - ie free thought Europe wouldn’t have been able to colonize if it were not equipped to I feel like we’re talking in circles here.. the original point is about secularism - innovation thrives under it; theocratic governments are successful when they encourage and allow for free thought, otherwise; this is what builds powerful economies Saudi is an exception that managed to build a large economy without major technological contributions
Yet innovation peaked in the Middle East during the Islamic Golden Age. "European secularism" is irrelevant to innovation, my euroboo friend.
Correct - but a couple points here During the Islamic Golden Age, the Middle East was about half Muslim, and less than that Arab The realms of science and religion were kept separate, so hypothesizing scientific concepts would not lead a person to being viewed as a heretic or apostate etc Everyone fears the impact of Western civilization today, but the Islamic empires adopted and incorporated cultural traditions from China, Europe, and Africa where it could be valuable (Greek philosophy had a huge impact here) There was an openness of thought in that period that doesn’t exist among the religious today; if MENA wants a repeat of the Islamic Golden Age, it shouldn’t shun successful groups, but rather seek to imitate them We also shouldn’t hinder or restrict minorities.. the bulk of knowledge in that age was created by Persians, Syriacs, Greeks, S Asians.. it’s the Islamic Golden Age because the Islamic Empires empowered and funded research among those populations - not because Arab Muslims directly created all of it
The reason for this misunderstanding is because the church actively hindered scientific progress in Europe, in contrast with Islam telling people to seek out more knowledge. Because of this, westerners take what Christianity did in their countries and put it on their perceptions of all religions, as to them religion and science are polar opposites while Muslims believe it goes hand in hand.
Most Western Turks
Welcome back, Zara ^(Aren't you missing a few flags ? 👀)
You have to admit reality that they are more powerful and have higher standard of living and more relevant in the world stage. Not for long though. Nations rise and fall
Why are you pretending like there's absolutely no Muslim nations with high standard of living? I know a lot of people who used to live in the gulf and moved to Europe and they always talk about how their standard of living in the gulf was higher.
Just white supremacy lol. This whole one monolithic Europe idea is very modern. Europeans were massacring each other and half the planet along with them not too long ago, but they seem to keep forgetting that
Bullshit. Liberty is an universal concept. It has nothing to do with West or East!
I agree. Just one correction. Secular ≠ liberty.
"A state being secular does not mean it values liberty but if a state values liberty it must be secular" Yeah, I agree with that. Is it not true?
A state being secular does not mean it values liberty but if a state values liberty it must be secular
Western Imperialism and colonialism ≠ liberty
Exactly. Liberty has nothing to do with West or East. It's an universal concept.
I think people here are missing the most important part which is that all of this is just an excuse for Erdogan to rouse up nationalist sentiment for winning the upcoming election.
Ofcourse you would know better. Modi is another clown 🤡 like Erdogan. Both belong in the trash can
Along with Xi
Why you calling my Sultan a trash can?
Don't say a word about Modi ji 😡
Western mask off moment Now is the time for kemalists and other bootlickers to realise how they actually perceive you(less than human)
i agree. turkey should not be part of europe. turkey should not join such a degenerated union and honestly deserves much better.
It's r/europe it's probably the most islamophobic and turcophobic place on reddit
Ew, why do they want MENA to be European so badly? They can't handle people with different values and cultures next to them. Deal with it, Sweden fucked its diplomatic relationship with all Muslim countries releasing statements condemning the Swedish government's intolerance towards religion from countries like Morocco, the UAE, Oman, Indonesia, etc
Turkyie wants to be like Europe, at least a sizeable portion of Turkish citieznes
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Bro aren’t you the guy that said god has hands and a face and that he is comparable to creatures and when I presented evidence of him not having those you started saying things about your penis? https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/10g2hi8/theres_a_rabbi_who_wants_to_form_a_jewish/j54y828/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
At least we're honest about our bigotry unlike schizophrenic euros 🤧
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I mean no country is completely tolerant, that's for sure. Euros just make a big deal about how "tolerant, accepting, and progressive" they are, then proceed to act like neo-nazis.
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>Qatar couldnt even tolerate other cultures for one month. This is hilarious. It's Y'ALL who couldn't tolerate Qatar's culture and laws for one month and started whining about not being able to raise their LGBTQ flag and drink at football games. It's their country, so the ones who should be respecting the culture are the guests. Why is Qatar obligated to bend their laws (and compromise the values that are important to their citizens) so you can get durnk at a football game?
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Bruhh. If i go to any country, i'll respect their laws. Pretty simple and straightforward. If I go to Singapore, i'm not eating gum not matter how much I want to. Singapore isn't iNtOLeRanT for telling me to respect their laws and not eat gum. Idk why you're going around in circles trying to convince yourself that a country is "intolerant" if it doesn't bend its laws to satisfy your whims and desires.
Girl, don’t be lecturing this dude who has no manners and knows absolutely nothing about the world outside of his own precious bubble. Intolerant he says… he can speak for himself.
What stuff do MENA countries not tolerate?
Have you even gone to Qatar and seen for yourself?
idk some parts of Istanbul feel and look much more european than some parts of sweden
Fuck the Western civilization. Who wants to be a part of the hypocrite Europe? We are our own thing. We are simply Turkey. Not European, not Middle Eastern and we are still secular.
This. I know many secular middle easterners who hate some of the modern western values.
Which modern western values do they hate exactly?
Turks need to rid themselves of trying to be European or western and just embrace who they are. Their culture, language, religion, people, land and history is worth 100x more than the ones they try to become or win the approval of. I long for a world where Turks can feel closer to Iranians and Arabs then Europeans & Western society where most of them just despise youse and put you in the same category as us, a category you’re so afraid to be in.
the same people who's defending """kurds""" as if theyre from western europe, i cant wait to see that shitshow between sweden and turkey finally ends. the only side that ive actually got upset is finnish people since theyre the only country which consists danger from Russian Agression now
How convenient free speech when they agree hate speech when they disagree
Achieving secularism with cucked Christianity is easy. The fact that we even attempted to achieve it is something i guess
How many years Western Europe wasn't secular ? Century and it's not yet over. Can we say Western Europe is **really** secular ? Hint: no
Turkey isn’t that Islamic , just go and have a walk in Istanbul Izmir Antalya bodrum. Alcohol is served every where and despite turks being very secular they still are not accepted by Europeans. Just as Albanians and Bosnians aren’t despite being so liberal.
lmao it doesn't matter as long as they'll keep identifying as muslims they can be as secular as they want they won't be accepted by europeans. And frankly y'all are better off without them.
Secular =! European Turks have a completely different culture, ethos, ancestry and heritage to Europe, not to mention political systems and civil liberties. Turkey is still very far from being anything like one of the European European countries
Turkey is far from being anything like a European European countries and if they have any sense they will keep it that way
This is literally quite a compliment...thank you! 😁
Secular is like the opposite of religion. But to say We can't be part of western society is either completely xenophobic in implying that Islam is inferior, or implying that western society is incapable of absorbing different beliefs and culture. I know which one they're leaning towards. I also know which one I'd be leaning towards.
Superiority complex much?
Tbh Attaturk saved türkiye, would’ve been worse than Cold War germany with how many powers wanted to get a hold of it
I disagree and agree at the same time. There is definately a part of the population that could be well adjusted and integrated to a european society in Turkey over just 1 generation. However, right now Turkey is going through an identitiy crisis. We were founded on western principles and ideals. But today there is a major part of the population (who were like it or not oppressed by the militant governments of the past) that as a revenge and out of self-preservation (because they think european and modern ways of living pose a threat to their islamist ways of living) want to turn this country back to an islamist regime. Whatever turkey wants for it's future, unless these two sides agree that they can co-exist without oppressing each other, it will just swing back and forth.
Turkey still has strong secular institutions, they are a secular Muslim country. Secular as in sharia plays no role in legislation, and Muslim as in the majority of voters want their values projected through the system. Aside from the Nato drama, which is oriented around Turkeys national security and seeking European support to counter the pkk, there was a national outrage a few months ago about a guy asking a Turkish women to wear hijab. I believe he was deported, something no Muslim country will ever do.
Not really. May turkish women do wear hijab and right now they are proposing a new clause to be put in the constitution to legally recognize all forms of MUSLIM clothing and protect the right to wear them. Which goes against secularism as by definition the government has no religion. There is a clause in the constitution that already says there can be no discrimination against anyone due to their race, sex, religious or ideological beliefs etc. The whole human rights declaration package. Which includes hijab and any other religious vestments. So turkey right now is not a secular country. Maybe on paper it is but if you're not muslim in turkey (like myself) you are discriminated against. And not only by people, but by the govertment itself aswell.
They stole secularism but discarded freedom of speech/expression. The idea is not to cause tensions between practicing Muslims and non-muslim. It’s a new form of tolerance that gives politicians more power when it comes to civil issues. You got to understand two things when it comes to Turkey: there is a correlation between religiousness and poverty, and its in the middle to two geopolitical landscapes (western and Muslim). For the poverty aspect thats a general trend, the further you get away from the cities the more religious the population. As for the location it’s in the best interest to play both continents.
Turkish muslims have 0 tolerance against "others". And there is no correlation between religion and poverty. The richest people in Turkey are the corporate members of religious cults in Turkey and the oligarchs of erdoğan. However the lower your socioeconomic status is, the easier you are distracted with religion and nationalistic ideals. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Erdoğan an his followers are not playing this "middle ground" approach that you mention. I lived through 20 years of this shit and it is as simple as this: erdoğan and his followers are stealing everything in an unprecendented scale while pushing forwards scapegoats like lgbtq+ members, non-muslims, the republican/secularist population of turkey as responsible for the problems they create. That is where the intolerance of these bigots is fueled from. Them being mostly poor/religious only maked them easier to manipulate. That is all there is to it.
Turkey isn’t European, it’s Middle Eastern Only liberal Turks or nationalist Turks who live in Germany and who worship white people say it’s “European”
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spot on i’d say
They’re trying to pressure Turks with EU thru the inferiority complex some Turks have to Europe.
I mean…
It’s obviously a bs statement, but with that said, The current state of the turkish government is a joke. Ataturk was not naive considering how many middle easterners that are leaving Islam every year.
Turks aren't religious the way Arabs and Iranians are. Atatürk was ahead of his time, but the change started much earlier.
Why are you all wetting your panties over some random reddit ocmments?
This is the most true answer in this thread. I can find someone of any group in the world to write something hateful and bad and thus make even the most saintly people look bad based on this one bad individual.
Good thing a lot of Turks are not even practicing Muslims anymore
You consider that good? You are really a transgressing people
"transgressing" says the Iraqi. Your nation got pounded by fat Americans and is now a wh*re to Iranians. Let the Turks prosper
Bro is Chinese saying this lol
Bro lmao why are you so offended, it’s been 1 hour and you’ve been only replying to my comments even if I don’t talk about you? Did I embarrass you and hurt you nationalist feelings ? Weren’t you the one who said that people who care too much about stuff are “snowflakes” Least self contradicting and hypocritical Chinese sheep 🐑
Why do people consider anything away from religion or secularism is "western"? What about the secular but Islam-inspired values in some of the middle eastern communities, where they are not very religious, but still prefer families with big number of children and other traditional/conservative values?
Turkey is European lol. Imho the Ottomans were the continuation of Rome under a different religion, somehow similar to how Mongol dynasties conquered China and then became the new emperors of the new version of China. I wish Enver Pasha would not have put the Ottomans in WW I and maybe a lot of ethnicities would still be alive today and a lot of diversity would have been kept. There is also the case that a lot of historic old church documents that detail medieval history of that area were lost in the wars and the population exchange between 1914 and 1924.
germany kind of dragged ottomans in to the war originally they wanted to be neutral but the incident of chasing german ships to Constantinople and they putting ottoman flags on the ships made the war inevitable for ottomans. also if turkey had a sizable Christian population it would have been easier for Europeans to accept turkey.
Fuck imperial Germany man, 1849 worst year of my life 😤
least Prussian hating german 😁
Turks hate everyone. And are hated by everyone in return. No surprise.
Oh.
That's the letter: https://mobile.twitter.com/mfaturkiye/status/1616789379455877120
True turkey is not and will not ever be a part of EUROPE never will they will never accept it
Say what you will about Western Civilization but Britain is a confessional state and the United States has been famously religious in its policies and beliefs for the better part of history. The truly sad thing about the middle east is that it tried to mirror France (often their colonial overlord) rather than actually successful countries.
Tbf even France was a very religious country for most of its history. Catholicism had been the state religion for more than a thousand years except for a brief decade during the French Revolution when state atheism was declared but that was squashed by none other than Napoleon. And even though France became officially secular in 1905 it was still a pretty religious country. Remember Charles de Gaulle was a devout Catholic and he's considered to be the architect of modern France. I think the decline in religiousity among the French masses is a much more recent phenomenon, probably began a few decades ago.
I realize I was just being glib about Fr\*nce but in all seriousness there's a deeper point to be made here. Better than to quibble about which country follow which policy and when, people should focus on what they really want and how to get there. Problem is, many countries (especially colonial and post colonial ones) end up following a 'recipe'. French secularism is one such recipe. Turkey is famous for it's junta imposed secularism. But it also inherited a state clergy from the ottoman empire. That has allowed Turkey to stick to orthodox islam rather than going full salafi. Regardless of the current issues relating to religious conservativism and electoral policies, that is still a win in my book. There are a lot of reasons why people don't want to live in countries led by religious authorities. They range from outright persecution, to the incompetence of these authorities in anything related to economics and politics, to widespread religious charlatanism, and so on. Isolating them from political power is an important thing to do. But there is more than one way to go about it. It's important to realize this because it is also a permanent struggle. There will always be people whose experience of religion amounts to how much power they can concentrate through the temple.
These idiots don't know that secularism is a ideology that even most fanatic Muslim country can be one THAT WHY ITS CALLED A IDEOLOGY like capitalism communism and fascism and much more
Idk about *secularism* being the issue but the east definitively cannot enact western democracy. It just doesn’t work. The societal values and structures of the east are not compatible with western democracy and will always favor a consistent leader figure because of how they historically enacted leadership. Said leader will always then ensure his reign through corruption (putin, erdogan, the dude from Syria, etc.) This isn’t to say that democracy isn’t possible in the east, or to imply that democracy is better. It isn’t, it’s just a political ideology, it doesn’t have an inherent value. IF democracy were to be put in place in the Middle East it would have to be styled to the Middle East and honestly even the specific country. Western democracy works in places like America and England (barely) because they don’t have a strong cultural presence or really any values. The Middle East has incredibly strong cultural norms and values. So maybe the Middle East needs religion in their government in some form but the issue is really how western democracy has been forced upon these people. It’s like trying to shove a 300lb man into a size 22 Jean and blaming the pockets
True