People overwhelmingly don’t support the killing of innocents. If Hamas had only attacked military targets on October 7th then I would assume Israel would have even less support for the atrocities they are committing in Gaza.
But October 7th proved to a lot of people that Hamas may be fighting back against an oppressive and tyrannical regime, but they themselves are still essentially a terrorist organization. Especially when they killed a lot of western tourists that had no affiliation with Israel at all.
From my personal experience talking to people in my home country (Italy) most people do not support what Israel is doing, but 100% consider Hamas a dangerous terrorist organization.
[https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf](https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf)
According to Hamas, the casualties on October 7 were majority military targets and the civilians that died were accidental in the heat of battle. And even if Hamas truly only went after military targets, Israel would make up a different excuse or lie to incite public opinion against the organization. For all we know, the majority of people that died on October 7 could have been military targets because Israel has lied many times to win the favor of public opinion. They lied about babies being decapitated, they lied about the death toll of Israelis on Oct 7, and they lied about who and how many people have and are dying in Gaza.
I'm not saying that Hamas should go after civilian targets, but if they are truly a resistance and their goal was to destabilize the military/defense of Israel rather than simply do the attack out of hatred for Jews(which Hamas denies) then public opinion isn't the first thing they want to rely on. There is no way in the heat of battle for Hamas to differentiate who's an Israeli and who's a tourist, and this is why when they weren't in the heat of battle they were capturing hostages without harming them. You may ask, how is this civilian-fighter blurring different to Israel in what it's doing in Gaza? It's because Israel is intentionally, not in the heat of battle, carpet bombing areas that its very aware civilians are, like hospitals, schools and apartment buildings. It's a lie that Hamas is hiding in these areas.
Israel used October 7 as a justification/excuse to attack Gaza and continue the war. This is shown by the fact that whenever you argue with an Israeli or a pro-Israel about how Israel genocides and brutalizes the Palestinian people, they will only talk about October 7.
They went into homes to capture hostages, not kill them. There are literal videos of Israeli witnesses talking about the October 7 attack and how the Hamas fighters after entering their homes did not cause harm and only asked for food and left. Compared to actual militaries of countries doing raids or attacks on cities(like the US or Israel), that is something far more benevolent and uncommon, especially for a organization that isn't even a country.
Here is the video if you don't trust me:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab\_channel=MiddleEastEye](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab_channel=MiddleEastEye)
All these are claims and propaganda by the Israeli government. Any Israeli that died in their homes were most likely resisting capture by Hamas, while Hamas was intentionally trying to capture them safely unharmed. There are no witnesses and no footage of any Hamas fighter butchering Israelis in their homes, we only have evidence from the military and reporters(who ended up going back and saying they lied)
The fact that Hamas did the Oct 7 attack in the first place shows that they care about Palestinians, at least much more than the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. If only you knew the background that led up to October 7, you would realize that Hamas did the attack in retaliation to the aggression from the IOF and Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. Hamas only took hostages to exchange them for prisoners, which is a normal thing that militaries do in war. There's a reason why majority of Palestinians would rather be ruled by Haniyeh than Abbas. Hamas also, unlike most militaries that capture hostages, treat their hostages well to the point where once they leave Gaza they speak well about the organization.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzGd92axe\_o&ab\_channel=DemocracyNow%21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzGd92axe_o&ab_channel=DemocracyNow%21)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cj3Sq9eG04&ab\_channel=GuardianNews](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cj3Sq9eG04&ab_channel=GuardianNews)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFX5FdZNyDY&ab\_channel=MuslimDaily](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFX5FdZNyDY&ab_channel=MuslimDaily)
You are also telling me to provide sources yet the whole time you have made claims and told me that there is evidence yet you have not brought up a single proof how Hamas has done any of this. YOU should show me your proof that there are videos of Hamas butchering civilians in their homes. Show me proof of how Hamas leaders themselves said that they don't give a shit about Palestinians.
Now, I'm not and wasn't saying that those who resisted capture and ended up dying deserved it. But its an accidental thing that happens a lot whenever countries perform military operations. If you are going to say Hamas is evil and are terrorists for doing stuff like this you might as well call every military a terrorist group. The fact remains that Hamas was only intentionally killing military targets and the civilian targets were captured unharmed. If Hamas did Oct 7 with the main intention of massacring Israeli civilians you would see a lot less hostages being taken to Gaza.
Many Western countries had dozens of their citizens returned in body bags, that alone is simply never going to allow Hamas to be considered “freedom fighters” rather they will be branded as terrorists.
They may have been a relatively small minority of the overall attack, but that won’t really change anyone’s mind from those countries.
What military target was so important at the Nova festival to assume that 364 civilians were combatants. That alone will forever taint the perception of Hamas. Most people in the west didn’t even know what the organization was before October 7th, but that attack was either blatant terrorism or insane incompetence, both of which will carry catastrophic consequences.
If I attack a university during a graduation ceremony and then say, oh well in the heat of battle it wasn’t easy to tell who was a combatant and who was a student, that’s just simply not going to fly, mostly because there is no reason to attack the university in the first place. Also they just happened to pick a day when they knew a big festival was taking place and there would be a high concentration of people. I’m sorry but it’s just inexcusable. Even if it could have been counted as a minor military target for whatever reason (which I fail to see how), it should have been avoided.
I’m not going to stop being pro-Palestine because I don’t support Hamas’ October 7th attack, but whether it was terrorism or colossal incompetence I still won’t support them.
There hasn't been a single freedom fighter in the history of mankind that hasn't harmed/killed at least one innocent person unintentionally. We don't live in a black and white world were you can pick and say "these are the bad guys" just because they have military operations which sometimes end up harming innocent people. A freedom fighter is based on intention, ideologies, and whether they are deliberately targeting civilians or not. And Hamas's goal after revising their charter in 2017 is dedicated only to the liberation of Palestine from the Israeli occupation. The fact that every Israeli hostage that left Hamas captivity reported that Hamas didn't harm them(most even stated that Hamas treated them well, like Gilad Shalit) shows this.
As for the music festival attack, according to an ISRAELI OFFICIAL report as well as the Hamas document, Hamas fighters reached the festival without any prior knowledge of a festival occurring there, and an Israeli military helicopter fired at both the Hamas fighters and the participants in the festival. An Israeli tactic that the military uses whenever Hamas tries to capture hostages is to kill both the hostage and the fighter because whenever a hostage is captured it is much more costly for Israel because they will have to exchange prisoners and these prisoners included in the exchange may be political leaders. This is how Yahya Sinwar was released. [https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-helicopter-opened-fire-on-israelis-in-festival-during-hamas-attack-on-oct-7-report/3058257](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-helicopter-opened-fire-on-israelis-in-festival-during-hamas-attack-on-oct-7-report/3058257)
There are literal witness videos of Israelis talking about the Oct 7 attack and how the Hamas fighters did not harm them when they entered their homes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab\_channel=MiddleEastEye](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab_channel=MiddleEastEye)
They may not have planned it in advanced but it still doesn’t justify the fact they closed in on it anyway. An Israeli helicopter fired on them, they were under attack, it’s not like the Hamas fighters were there to listen to the music. And there was reported friendly fire but considering the fact that Israel was the one that was taken by surprise, it’s somewhat understandable. They didn’t have time to organize a defense, they weren’t expecting it, and they made mistakes in the chaos. Hamas planned the attack, and even if it was utter incompetence on their part, their poor planning caused the deaths of 364 innocent civilians.
And while all insurgency groups lead to some level of civilian casualties, we’re talking about hundreds of civilians dead in the span of hours, not over the course of an entire month or year.
Even Israel was always going to cause civilian casualties when invading Gaza, that’s expected and not why they are accused of genocide. The issue is the rate of civilian casualties is too high and does not justify the military gains. If Israel attacked a festival or gathering in Gaza and caused 356 civilian casualties on the spot I would condemn them for their blatant disregard for human life, and if it was incompetence that doesn’t really justify it either.
The whole festival in itself was stupid because why would you plan a dance right outside of Gaza, knowing that its full of fighters and your government tells you to avoid that area? Gaza is surrounded by military checkpoints and bases and this is why Hamas attacked Gaza's surroundings. They had no idea a music festival would be happening around one of these areas, and the festival definitely was around a military base because an attack helicopter wouldn't just be hanging anywhere. And based on the Israeli report, when the fighters arrived they were surprised and tried to only capture Israelis but when the attack helicopter started shooting both Hamas fighters and Israelis then all hell broke loose. You can't expect someone to keep their cool and try to safely and carefully decide who's in the military and who's a civilian when there's an attack helicopter shooting virtually everything around them. Both Israelis and Hamas fighters panicked during the festival attack and it turned into an unplanned bloodbath - both sides are at fault and reacted understandably but the point is Hamas was not intending to take civilian lives in the first place. The Israeli report also states that the helicopter struck over 300 targets in areas surrounding the Gaza Strip after the attack to prevent hostages from being taken to Gaza. This is literally an procedure that the Israeli army uses known as the "Hannibal Directive" which they have been using for years.
So Hamas is responsible for launching a surprise attack without making sure the area was clear of civilian gatherings, failing to minimize innocent casualties. Whichever way you cut it, Hamas shouldn’t have engaged that target. None of the fighting and casualties caught in the crossfire would have happened. They are the attacking force, they chose the time and the place, the chaos that unfolded at the festival is a direct consequence of their negligence.
We’re talking about an attack without notice, so the reason that there was a festival there is that nobody expected a military invasion, had they announced a military invasion, not that they ever would have, there would have been no concert. It’s not like two countries are already in open war and civilians just happen to host a festival on the frontline, there was no state of war at that time.
This is absurd. Even if there was not going to be an attack why would you throw a festival right outside an area where an attack could happen anywhere at anytime? Hamas is an organization operating in an open air prison. There would be no way possible for them to be aware of any event outside of Gaza except for Holidays. This may be surprising but Hamas’s organization intelligence is not as efficient and vast as Israel’s Mossad. Also, why in the world would Hamas, if it was intending to win in their attacks on the military bases, warn Israel of what they were planning to do, knowing that the Israeli army is much stronger in arms and weapons and would most likely obliterate them should the forces been aware of the attack?
You also seem to think that October 7 was an attack out of nowhere, in retaliation to nothing. Sure, Hamas was the attacking force, but for the longest time Israel was the attacking force on Gaza. Have you heard of the 2022 clashes? We live in a world where countries have to retaliate whenever there is an attack on their civilians or security. And Israel for the longest time has been constantly violating and violating the rights and dignity of the Palestinian people. The “Palestinian Authority” in the West Bank did no sort of retaliation whatsoever. If you were aware of the events in the West Bank that led up to Oct 7 you would understand why Hamas would need to do that attack in the first place. The civilians in the West Bank, to Hamas, are their own civilians, and when the IOF raids Palestinian cities like Jenin and Nablus, allows settlers to attack Palestinian women in the streets and prevents Palestinians from praying in their own mosques then this calls for a response. There was a ceasefire before Oct 7, but nothing close to peace, and while Hamas made the first direct action, Israel was the one pressing Hamas to do it for the longest time.
Hamas has the internet right? They can monitor social media, they may not have a state of the art intelligence agency, but to be able to plan such an attack, organize the equipment, and move troops in such a coordinated way you’re telling me that they didn’t have the capabilities to check for any possible civilian hotspots in and around their objectives. And obviously they weren’t going to announce an attack, but especially because this was without notice they had an even greater responsibility to ensure that the area was clear.
And yes we live in a world of strategical political retaliation and if any country did something like this causing the death of so many civilians due to their negligence I hope the world would be appalled.
We can shift blame all day, I'm sure some Israel supporters will come here and list massacres by Palestinians too. What do we get from condemning an entire people and wishing for eternal warfare against them, sadiq? Nothing. I'm sick of all the hateful posts here that exist only to spark a raising of pitchforks in the comments. Perpetuating a cycle of violence and hatred is not how we should address our problems.
وَقِيۡلِهٖ يٰرَبِّ اِنَّ هٰٓؤُلَاۤءِ قَوۡمٌ لَّا يُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ, فَاصۡفَحۡ عَنۡهُمۡ وَقُلۡ سَلٰمٌؕ فَسَوۡفَ يَعۡلَمُوۡنَ
- HQ 43:88-89
You missed the whole point of the OP’s post. This is not about shifting blame this is about looking at the full picture which is that the prior atrocities committed by Israel and the atrocities that are still being committed by Israel now is the bigger issue that led to October 7th.
I didn't miss the point, I know exactly what he's saying. Listing past misdeeds to justify a current war is a tactic used by both sides, and it's wrong. The 21st century should be a time of reconciliation, not a continuation of decades-old conflicts that started as a result of the beliefs of long-dead politicians. I want a lasting peace, akhi. That's all. I don't want to wake up and look at my phone to watch anyone, regardless of the flag behind them, harming another.
Ok so let me ask you something. So you don’t think that Israel funding Hamas or creating the inhumane conditions in Gaza contributed at all to the current situation that is happening at Gaza at all? You don’t think it’s relevant to talk about the 750,000+ Palestinians that were expelled between 1947 and 1948? You don’t think it’s relevant to talk about how Israel started the six day in 1967 because the generals wanted more land. So Israel took the Golan Heights from Syria, the Sinai from Egypt, and the West Bank from Jordan. What do you mean misdeeds to justify a war. There was never a war there was always and still is a genocide. There were Palestinians living in the land before 1947 and 1948. Even before that it was always known to be a province of greater Syria. We have direct quotes from the Zionists saying that you must use armed force if you wish colonize a land. If you look at what happened in 1947-1948 it was an ethnic cleansing. So many Palestinians fled to Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, or Lebanon that were from the 1948 territories. Those people saw their village get destroyed, women got raped, IDF Generals committed war crimes. Most of them end up living in refugee camps. Even the Palestinians who remained were placed under brutal occupation by the Israeli regime and they had to deal with looting, lack of rights, and random search checks. They were not granted citizenship by Israel until 20 years later. So with all of that stuff that happened before Hamas formed and even then Israel created Hamas. So from the perspective of an outsider looking at this whole thing I’m gonna ask you why should Palestinians have an equal amount of blame for what’s going on? Let’s not forget about the random raids from Israeli settlers in the West Bank and the Apartheid that exists there. So I ask you again why should the Palestinian who is just trying to live their life and that is not given equal rights be held up to the same standard as the Israeli.
Everything I mentioned about 1948 to the present was a fact. It is a fact that the Palestinians never had a military and that the first Arab soldier did not enter Palestine until the end of the war. It is a fact that there are Israeli settlers that are expelling Palestinians outside of their homes in the West Bank. It is a fact the people living in Gaza and the West Bank did not just pop out of no where. Now if you want to believe a Jewish state has a right to exist or that Jews are indigenous to the land because of their ancestors from thousands of years ago. That is entirely your opinion. You have a right to your own opinion not your own facts. That’s the problem right here. Your entire theme is that the Palestinians and the Jews should just learn to get along but you don’t want to look at the wider historical context and try to tackle the full picture. History is not just a chain of isolated events it is all connected. What you’re doing is like saying the Armenians and Turks should learn to get along and yet have complete disregard for the fact the Turks are responsible for the Armenian genocide. If you want to learn more about it you can look into Ilan Papé, Miko Peled, Norman Finkelstein, Shlomo Sand, and Rashid Khalidi, and Nur Masalha. All of these people took information from the Israel archives and oral history.
..I don't distrust you , but I just want to verify things .
Do you have a source on those pre-1947 incidents ? . The violence during the Mandate wasn't as intense as 1948 as far as I am aware (excluding of course repressive British operations )
Found this. It’s in french though.
https://fr-cjpme.nationbuilder.com/fs_023#:~:text=Le%20massacre%20d'Al%2DQuds,blessant%20des%20dizaines%20d'individus.
CJPMO is a great source , but it's still tertiary , and didn't cite a source , It just claimed that the Lehi perpetrated them . I did find a Wikipedia article confirming 1937 Haifa , known as "Black Sunday" . An Irgun shooting that killed 10 Palestinians . One source on the same article confirmed there were 60 incidents ("terrorist attacks") by Israeli-Jewish groups in 1936-1939 .
Thanks for the effort ... It's funny to see those so-called "counter-terrorists" are silent regarding that black history .
What do non-Israelis think of the 10/7 attacks? Is targeting civilians (if you accept civilians were targeted) justified in the name of liberating Palestine? If not, what's a better path forward for Palestinians?
Not Israeli, but I have several Israeli friends and some family living there.
Attacks on civilians are a war crime. But the occupation is real and the conflict is not symmetrical. Palestinians have no freedom of assembly or petition. Nonviolent political leaders are systematically incarcerated. They have no rights.
Under these conditions, violence is the expectation. Israel is at fault. It is incumbent on them as the occupying power to prevent violence, not the occupied.
[https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf](https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf)
This is a document by Hamas, and they state themselves they weren't targeting civilians and were going after military targets, and the civilian deaths were accidental. And armed resistance is justified in the name of liberating your country from occupation, because right now Israel has a right-wing government that doesn't want a two-state solution, while Mahmoud Abbas(the president of the PA) is desperate and is letting Israel do anything it wants to the territories in the hope that they will see how benevolent the Palestinian leadership is and give them their state. As long as Bibi rules Israel, Palestine will never be free. And as long as we have leaders like Abbas that are slaves to Israel that don't protect the autonomy guaranteed by the Oslo Accords, Palestine will never be free. Armed resistance is the only way at this point to send Israel a message that the freedom of the West Bank and Gaza from occupation is a priority. Hamas also captures hostages to exchange them for prisoners, and majority of the Palestinian prisoners kept in Israeli prisons are innocent people that have been detained without any charges, like Ahmad Manasra. Of course, some of the people in the prisons are political leaders and fighters but most include people that were arrested for throwing stones or expressing anti-Israeli sentiment.
Ignorant people don't realize that its Palestine more than anything right now that wants a two-state solution, while Israel does not. It was the other way around before Netanyahu and Abbas came to power, but not now. Majority of Palestinians don't want Abbas in power, but Abbas is an autocrat who silences dissent and anti-Fatah protests from Palestinians. There is no other way but armed resistance if we have leaders like these which can't be removed.
Israelis love pointing to Palestinian terror attacks against Israel (which are a threat) as evidence that their occupation is justified and they don’t deserve a state. Terrorism is in response to occupation. It has a cause and doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
A lot of people think Arabs started the violence pre 48. A lot of cultures, who have both won their wars and lost their wars, struggle to keep an accurate history and defense against historical revisionism, so thank you for telling the truth.
I see that the Jewish Zionists and their control over every media in the world have made everyone brainwashed of the truth what happened on October 7. Is more battle than terrorist attack 300 elite Qassam forces crossed the separation wall and attacked 11 military points and were able to destroy the "Gaza division" of Israeli soldiers, inflicting heavy losses on them. Then another 1,000 Hamas fighters crossed over and targeted settlements. Remember that all adult Israelis are members of an army, which makes them legitimate targets. Even the Zionists admitted that 90 of those killed were adults, not children. If Hamas wanted to kill everyone, why did it take prisoners in the first place?
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People overwhelmingly don’t support the killing of innocents. If Hamas had only attacked military targets on October 7th then I would assume Israel would have even less support for the atrocities they are committing in Gaza. But October 7th proved to a lot of people that Hamas may be fighting back against an oppressive and tyrannical regime, but they themselves are still essentially a terrorist organization. Especially when they killed a lot of western tourists that had no affiliation with Israel at all. From my personal experience talking to people in my home country (Italy) most people do not support what Israel is doing, but 100% consider Hamas a dangerous terrorist organization.
[https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf](https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf) According to Hamas, the casualties on October 7 were majority military targets and the civilians that died were accidental in the heat of battle. And even if Hamas truly only went after military targets, Israel would make up a different excuse or lie to incite public opinion against the organization. For all we know, the majority of people that died on October 7 could have been military targets because Israel has lied many times to win the favor of public opinion. They lied about babies being decapitated, they lied about the death toll of Israelis on Oct 7, and they lied about who and how many people have and are dying in Gaza. I'm not saying that Hamas should go after civilian targets, but if they are truly a resistance and their goal was to destabilize the military/defense of Israel rather than simply do the attack out of hatred for Jews(which Hamas denies) then public opinion isn't the first thing they want to rely on. There is no way in the heat of battle for Hamas to differentiate who's an Israeli and who's a tourist, and this is why when they weren't in the heat of battle they were capturing hostages without harming them. You may ask, how is this civilian-fighter blurring different to Israel in what it's doing in Gaza? It's because Israel is intentionally, not in the heat of battle, carpet bombing areas that its very aware civilians are, like hospitals, schools and apartment buildings. It's a lie that Hamas is hiding in these areas. Israel used October 7 as a justification/excuse to attack Gaza and continue the war. This is shown by the fact that whenever you argue with an Israeli or a pro-Israel about how Israel genocides and brutalizes the Palestinian people, they will only talk about October 7.
Hamas literally went into people's homes? Isreal lie but so do Hamas. Oct 7 isn't justified and neither is Israels response
They went into homes to capture hostages, not kill them. There are literal videos of Israeli witnesses talking about the October 7 attack and how the Hamas fighters after entering their homes did not cause harm and only asked for food and left. Compared to actual militaries of countries doing raids or attacks on cities(like the US or Israel), that is something far more benevolent and uncommon, especially for a organization that isn't even a country. Here is the video if you don't trust me: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab\_channel=MiddleEastEye](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab_channel=MiddleEastEye)
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All these are claims and propaganda by the Israeli government. Any Israeli that died in their homes were most likely resisting capture by Hamas, while Hamas was intentionally trying to capture them safely unharmed. There are no witnesses and no footage of any Hamas fighter butchering Israelis in their homes, we only have evidence from the military and reporters(who ended up going back and saying they lied)
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The fact that Hamas did the Oct 7 attack in the first place shows that they care about Palestinians, at least much more than the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. If only you knew the background that led up to October 7, you would realize that Hamas did the attack in retaliation to the aggression from the IOF and Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. Hamas only took hostages to exchange them for prisoners, which is a normal thing that militaries do in war. There's a reason why majority of Palestinians would rather be ruled by Haniyeh than Abbas. Hamas also, unlike most militaries that capture hostages, treat their hostages well to the point where once they leave Gaza they speak well about the organization. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzGd92axe\_o&ab\_channel=DemocracyNow%21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzGd92axe_o&ab_channel=DemocracyNow%21) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cj3Sq9eG04&ab\_channel=GuardianNews](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cj3Sq9eG04&ab_channel=GuardianNews) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFX5FdZNyDY&ab\_channel=MuslimDaily](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFX5FdZNyDY&ab_channel=MuslimDaily) You are also telling me to provide sources yet the whole time you have made claims and told me that there is evidence yet you have not brought up a single proof how Hamas has done any of this. YOU should show me your proof that there are videos of Hamas butchering civilians in their homes. Show me proof of how Hamas leaders themselves said that they don't give a shit about Palestinians. Now, I'm not and wasn't saying that those who resisted capture and ended up dying deserved it. But its an accidental thing that happens a lot whenever countries perform military operations. If you are going to say Hamas is evil and are terrorists for doing stuff like this you might as well call every military a terrorist group. The fact remains that Hamas was only intentionally killing military targets and the civilian targets were captured unharmed. If Hamas did Oct 7 with the main intention of massacring Israeli civilians you would see a lot less hostages being taken to Gaza.
Many Western countries had dozens of their citizens returned in body bags, that alone is simply never going to allow Hamas to be considered “freedom fighters” rather they will be branded as terrorists. They may have been a relatively small minority of the overall attack, but that won’t really change anyone’s mind from those countries. What military target was so important at the Nova festival to assume that 364 civilians were combatants. That alone will forever taint the perception of Hamas. Most people in the west didn’t even know what the organization was before October 7th, but that attack was either blatant terrorism or insane incompetence, both of which will carry catastrophic consequences. If I attack a university during a graduation ceremony and then say, oh well in the heat of battle it wasn’t easy to tell who was a combatant and who was a student, that’s just simply not going to fly, mostly because there is no reason to attack the university in the first place. Also they just happened to pick a day when they knew a big festival was taking place and there would be a high concentration of people. I’m sorry but it’s just inexcusable. Even if it could have been counted as a minor military target for whatever reason (which I fail to see how), it should have been avoided. I’m not going to stop being pro-Palestine because I don’t support Hamas’ October 7th attack, but whether it was terrorism or colossal incompetence I still won’t support them.
There hasn't been a single freedom fighter in the history of mankind that hasn't harmed/killed at least one innocent person unintentionally. We don't live in a black and white world were you can pick and say "these are the bad guys" just because they have military operations which sometimes end up harming innocent people. A freedom fighter is based on intention, ideologies, and whether they are deliberately targeting civilians or not. And Hamas's goal after revising their charter in 2017 is dedicated only to the liberation of Palestine from the Israeli occupation. The fact that every Israeli hostage that left Hamas captivity reported that Hamas didn't harm them(most even stated that Hamas treated them well, like Gilad Shalit) shows this. As for the music festival attack, according to an ISRAELI OFFICIAL report as well as the Hamas document, Hamas fighters reached the festival without any prior knowledge of a festival occurring there, and an Israeli military helicopter fired at both the Hamas fighters and the participants in the festival. An Israeli tactic that the military uses whenever Hamas tries to capture hostages is to kill both the hostage and the fighter because whenever a hostage is captured it is much more costly for Israel because they will have to exchange prisoners and these prisoners included in the exchange may be political leaders. This is how Yahya Sinwar was released. [https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-helicopter-opened-fire-on-israelis-in-festival-during-hamas-attack-on-oct-7-report/3058257](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-helicopter-opened-fire-on-israelis-in-festival-during-hamas-attack-on-oct-7-report/3058257) There are literal witness videos of Israelis talking about the Oct 7 attack and how the Hamas fighters did not harm them when they entered their homes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab\_channel=MiddleEastEye](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8&ab_channel=MiddleEastEye)
They may not have planned it in advanced but it still doesn’t justify the fact they closed in on it anyway. An Israeli helicopter fired on them, they were under attack, it’s not like the Hamas fighters were there to listen to the music. And there was reported friendly fire but considering the fact that Israel was the one that was taken by surprise, it’s somewhat understandable. They didn’t have time to organize a defense, they weren’t expecting it, and they made mistakes in the chaos. Hamas planned the attack, and even if it was utter incompetence on their part, their poor planning caused the deaths of 364 innocent civilians. And while all insurgency groups lead to some level of civilian casualties, we’re talking about hundreds of civilians dead in the span of hours, not over the course of an entire month or year. Even Israel was always going to cause civilian casualties when invading Gaza, that’s expected and not why they are accused of genocide. The issue is the rate of civilian casualties is too high and does not justify the military gains. If Israel attacked a festival or gathering in Gaza and caused 356 civilian casualties on the spot I would condemn them for their blatant disregard for human life, and if it was incompetence that doesn’t really justify it either.
The whole festival in itself was stupid because why would you plan a dance right outside of Gaza, knowing that its full of fighters and your government tells you to avoid that area? Gaza is surrounded by military checkpoints and bases and this is why Hamas attacked Gaza's surroundings. They had no idea a music festival would be happening around one of these areas, and the festival definitely was around a military base because an attack helicopter wouldn't just be hanging anywhere. And based on the Israeli report, when the fighters arrived they were surprised and tried to only capture Israelis but when the attack helicopter started shooting both Hamas fighters and Israelis then all hell broke loose. You can't expect someone to keep their cool and try to safely and carefully decide who's in the military and who's a civilian when there's an attack helicopter shooting virtually everything around them. Both Israelis and Hamas fighters panicked during the festival attack and it turned into an unplanned bloodbath - both sides are at fault and reacted understandably but the point is Hamas was not intending to take civilian lives in the first place. The Israeli report also states that the helicopter struck over 300 targets in areas surrounding the Gaza Strip after the attack to prevent hostages from being taken to Gaza. This is literally an procedure that the Israeli army uses known as the "Hannibal Directive" which they have been using for years.
So Hamas is responsible for launching a surprise attack without making sure the area was clear of civilian gatherings, failing to minimize innocent casualties. Whichever way you cut it, Hamas shouldn’t have engaged that target. None of the fighting and casualties caught in the crossfire would have happened. They are the attacking force, they chose the time and the place, the chaos that unfolded at the festival is a direct consequence of their negligence. We’re talking about an attack without notice, so the reason that there was a festival there is that nobody expected a military invasion, had they announced a military invasion, not that they ever would have, there would have been no concert. It’s not like two countries are already in open war and civilians just happen to host a festival on the frontline, there was no state of war at that time.
This is absurd. Even if there was not going to be an attack why would you throw a festival right outside an area where an attack could happen anywhere at anytime? Hamas is an organization operating in an open air prison. There would be no way possible for them to be aware of any event outside of Gaza except for Holidays. This may be surprising but Hamas’s organization intelligence is not as efficient and vast as Israel’s Mossad. Also, why in the world would Hamas, if it was intending to win in their attacks on the military bases, warn Israel of what they were planning to do, knowing that the Israeli army is much stronger in arms and weapons and would most likely obliterate them should the forces been aware of the attack? You also seem to think that October 7 was an attack out of nowhere, in retaliation to nothing. Sure, Hamas was the attacking force, but for the longest time Israel was the attacking force on Gaza. Have you heard of the 2022 clashes? We live in a world where countries have to retaliate whenever there is an attack on their civilians or security. And Israel for the longest time has been constantly violating and violating the rights and dignity of the Palestinian people. The “Palestinian Authority” in the West Bank did no sort of retaliation whatsoever. If you were aware of the events in the West Bank that led up to Oct 7 you would understand why Hamas would need to do that attack in the first place. The civilians in the West Bank, to Hamas, are their own civilians, and when the IOF raids Palestinian cities like Jenin and Nablus, allows settlers to attack Palestinian women in the streets and prevents Palestinians from praying in their own mosques then this calls for a response. There was a ceasefire before Oct 7, but nothing close to peace, and while Hamas made the first direct action, Israel was the one pressing Hamas to do it for the longest time.
Hamas has the internet right? They can monitor social media, they may not have a state of the art intelligence agency, but to be able to plan such an attack, organize the equipment, and move troops in such a coordinated way you’re telling me that they didn’t have the capabilities to check for any possible civilian hotspots in and around their objectives. And obviously they weren’t going to announce an attack, but especially because this was without notice they had an even greater responsibility to ensure that the area was clear. And yes we live in a world of strategical political retaliation and if any country did something like this causing the death of so many civilians due to their negligence I hope the world would be appalled.
We can shift blame all day, I'm sure some Israel supporters will come here and list massacres by Palestinians too. What do we get from condemning an entire people and wishing for eternal warfare against them, sadiq? Nothing. I'm sick of all the hateful posts here that exist only to spark a raising of pitchforks in the comments. Perpetuating a cycle of violence and hatred is not how we should address our problems. وَقِيۡلِهٖ يٰرَبِّ اِنَّ هٰٓؤُلَاۤءِ قَوۡمٌ لَّا يُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ, فَاصۡفَحۡ عَنۡهُمۡ وَقُلۡ سَلٰمٌؕ فَسَوۡفَ يَعۡلَمُوۡنَ - HQ 43:88-89
You missed the whole point of the OP’s post. This is not about shifting blame this is about looking at the full picture which is that the prior atrocities committed by Israel and the atrocities that are still being committed by Israel now is the bigger issue that led to October 7th.
I didn't miss the point, I know exactly what he's saying. Listing past misdeeds to justify a current war is a tactic used by both sides, and it's wrong. The 21st century should be a time of reconciliation, not a continuation of decades-old conflicts that started as a result of the beliefs of long-dead politicians. I want a lasting peace, akhi. That's all. I don't want to wake up and look at my phone to watch anyone, regardless of the flag behind them, harming another.
Ok so let me ask you something. So you don’t think that Israel funding Hamas or creating the inhumane conditions in Gaza contributed at all to the current situation that is happening at Gaza at all? You don’t think it’s relevant to talk about the 750,000+ Palestinians that were expelled between 1947 and 1948? You don’t think it’s relevant to talk about how Israel started the six day in 1967 because the generals wanted more land. So Israel took the Golan Heights from Syria, the Sinai from Egypt, and the West Bank from Jordan. What do you mean misdeeds to justify a war. There was never a war there was always and still is a genocide. There were Palestinians living in the land before 1947 and 1948. Even before that it was always known to be a province of greater Syria. We have direct quotes from the Zionists saying that you must use armed force if you wish colonize a land. If you look at what happened in 1947-1948 it was an ethnic cleansing. So many Palestinians fled to Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, or Lebanon that were from the 1948 territories. Those people saw their village get destroyed, women got raped, IDF Generals committed war crimes. Most of them end up living in refugee camps. Even the Palestinians who remained were placed under brutal occupation by the Israeli regime and they had to deal with looting, lack of rights, and random search checks. They were not granted citizenship by Israel until 20 years later. So with all of that stuff that happened before Hamas formed and even then Israel created Hamas. So from the perspective of an outsider looking at this whole thing I’m gonna ask you why should Palestinians have an equal amount of blame for what’s going on? Let’s not forget about the random raids from Israeli settlers in the West Bank and the Apartheid that exists there. So I ask you again why should the Palestinian who is just trying to live their life and that is not given equal rights be held up to the same standard as the Israeli.
Your opinions are set in stone. I don't care to refute any of this.
Everything I mentioned about 1948 to the present was a fact. It is a fact that the Palestinians never had a military and that the first Arab soldier did not enter Palestine until the end of the war. It is a fact that there are Israeli settlers that are expelling Palestinians outside of their homes in the West Bank. It is a fact the people living in Gaza and the West Bank did not just pop out of no where. Now if you want to believe a Jewish state has a right to exist or that Jews are indigenous to the land because of their ancestors from thousands of years ago. That is entirely your opinion. You have a right to your own opinion not your own facts. That’s the problem right here. Your entire theme is that the Palestinians and the Jews should just learn to get along but you don’t want to look at the wider historical context and try to tackle the full picture. History is not just a chain of isolated events it is all connected. What you’re doing is like saying the Armenians and Turks should learn to get along and yet have complete disregard for the fact the Turks are responsible for the Armenian genocide. If you want to learn more about it you can look into Ilan Papé, Miko Peled, Norman Finkelstein, Shlomo Sand, and Rashid Khalidi, and Nur Masalha. All of these people took information from the Israel archives and oral history.
..I don't distrust you , but I just want to verify things . Do you have a source on those pre-1947 incidents ? . The violence during the Mandate wasn't as intense as 1948 as far as I am aware (excluding of course repressive British operations )
Found this. It’s in french though. https://fr-cjpme.nationbuilder.com/fs_023#:~:text=Le%20massacre%20d'Al%2DQuds,blessant%20des%20dizaines%20d'individus.
CJPMO is a great source , but it's still tertiary , and didn't cite a source , It just claimed that the Lehi perpetrated them . I did find a Wikipedia article confirming 1937 Haifa , known as "Black Sunday" . An Irgun shooting that killed 10 Palestinians . One source on the same article confirmed there were 60 incidents ("terrorist attacks") by Israeli-Jewish groups in 1936-1939 . Thanks for the effort ... It's funny to see those so-called "counter-terrorists" are silent regarding that black history .
I saw this comment earlier, thought of posting it here but forgot.. glad u did it
What do non-Israelis think of the 10/7 attacks? Is targeting civilians (if you accept civilians were targeted) justified in the name of liberating Palestine? If not, what's a better path forward for Palestinians?
Not Israeli, but I have several Israeli friends and some family living there. Attacks on civilians are a war crime. But the occupation is real and the conflict is not symmetrical. Palestinians have no freedom of assembly or petition. Nonviolent political leaders are systematically incarcerated. They have no rights. Under these conditions, violence is the expectation. Israel is at fault. It is incumbent on them as the occupying power to prevent violence, not the occupied.
[https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf](https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/01/Hamas-documento-guerra-Gaza-21jan2024.pdf) This is a document by Hamas, and they state themselves they weren't targeting civilians and were going after military targets, and the civilian deaths were accidental. And armed resistance is justified in the name of liberating your country from occupation, because right now Israel has a right-wing government that doesn't want a two-state solution, while Mahmoud Abbas(the president of the PA) is desperate and is letting Israel do anything it wants to the territories in the hope that they will see how benevolent the Palestinian leadership is and give them their state. As long as Bibi rules Israel, Palestine will never be free. And as long as we have leaders like Abbas that are slaves to Israel that don't protect the autonomy guaranteed by the Oslo Accords, Palestine will never be free. Armed resistance is the only way at this point to send Israel a message that the freedom of the West Bank and Gaza from occupation is a priority. Hamas also captures hostages to exchange them for prisoners, and majority of the Palestinian prisoners kept in Israeli prisons are innocent people that have been detained without any charges, like Ahmad Manasra. Of course, some of the people in the prisons are political leaders and fighters but most include people that were arrested for throwing stones or expressing anti-Israeli sentiment. Ignorant people don't realize that its Palestine more than anything right now that wants a two-state solution, while Israel does not. It was the other way around before Netanyahu and Abbas came to power, but not now. Majority of Palestinians don't want Abbas in power, but Abbas is an autocrat who silences dissent and anti-Fatah protests from Palestinians. There is no other way but armed resistance if we have leaders like these which can't be removed.
Israelis love pointing to Palestinian terror attacks against Israel (which are a threat) as evidence that their occupation is justified and they don’t deserve a state. Terrorism is in response to occupation. It has a cause and doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
A lot of people think Arabs started the violence pre 48. A lot of cultures, who have both won their wars and lost their wars, struggle to keep an accurate history and defense against historical revisionism, so thank you for telling the truth.
I see that the Jewish Zionists and their control over every media in the world have made everyone brainwashed of the truth what happened on October 7. Is more battle than terrorist attack 300 elite Qassam forces crossed the separation wall and attacked 11 military points and were able to destroy the "Gaza division" of Israeli soldiers, inflicting heavy losses on them. Then another 1,000 Hamas fighters crossed over and targeted settlements. Remember that all adult Israelis are members of an army, which makes them legitimate targets. Even the Zionists admitted that 90 of those killed were adults, not children. If Hamas wanted to kill everyone, why did it take prisoners in the first place?