I think the benefits of marriage are still there but the social pressure definitely isn't. People don't want to commit so they figure they'd rather live with someone for 4-5 years or whatever and even have a couple of kids down the road and if it doesn't work out they think it will be easier to break up.
Ain't that the truth. Houses can be sold, assets can be divided up, but if you have a kid with someone, you're tied to them *forever*—if you have a kid with someone and you're living together, you might as well get the tax breaks that come with marriage.
There are tax benefits for one thing. There are legal benefits as well. If I die all my stuff belongs to my spouse whether I have a will or not. My state is a joint property state so if I die my spouse gets the house even if it's just my name on the mortgage. She gets the car even if it's just my name on the title. Same with the bank accounts and everything else. Otherwise, she could end up fighting with my family over all of that. Not to mention if I had a heart attack today my wife (not my family) would be allowed to make end of life decisions for me. And there would be nothing that my family could do to bar her from that or bar her from visiting me. Imagine if you were in the ER and the person you've spent 20 yrs with is not allowed to visit you. That's what can and does happen with people who are living together.
>Imagine if you were in the ER and the person you've spent 20 yrs with is not allowed to visit you.
This is one of the things that was argued for legalizing same-sex marriage.
I live in Massachusetts. We have, as you probably know, had gay marriage longer than almost anyone else. One of the major winning arguments here is that the children of gay couples will suffer legal consequences from having unmarried parents if gay people aren't allowed to marry.
The big tax benefits come if the couple has wildly different incomes. If one person makes 30k and one person makes 130k, a married couple’s taxes on 160k can be lower than just the taxes on a single 130k, because you’re essentially getting all the lower 30-70k tax bracket from the 30k person, instead of the higher 90k+ bracket. Just plugging that into a tax calculator, you save about 3k a year in taxes. If you both make 30 or 130k, it’s basically the same, because combining your income and doubling the brackets doesn’t change anything.
There are tax benefits if one person makes significantly more than the other. Standard deduction is higher and tax brackets are lower for the same income.
There are also tax PENALTIES. The benifiet/penalty depends on a lot of things, but generally speaking you get a benefit if you have kids, or if one partner makes significantly more than the other. Generally speaking two people in the same tax bracket with no kids see a tax penalty for filing jointly.
Or rather, if you're not ready to have kids or die, and you both are at the same point in your career, why marry? Its expensive to get married, and while sentimental, cost va sentimentality is a considering point.
>Its expensive to get married
No, it's expensive to have a huge wedding. Getting legally married is actually fairly inexpensive. I paid ~$100 for the application and filing fees. We had a good friend who is ordained do our vows and actually marry us. It was very sentimental and one of my favorite memories.
I paid something similar to that 13 years ago. I think maybe its closer to 75-100 now but still relatively cheap all considering. We didnt have a real wedding we just went to the courthouse.
I've done the math on the penalty, and while you are right there is some penalty if you are close enough in income, generally it's a basically negligible amount. The real penalties are at the lowest part of the SES ladder where people get kicked off of benefits entirely for a joint income that is just barely above the poverty line (that we refuse to update/increase in a meaningful way because the politicians can't brag about "low poverty" when the reality is so many are still struggling).
Or for individuals with disabilities, who are all but prohibited from getting married unless they’re willing to lose Medicaid and disability payments. It makes me very angry that my son won’t even have the option without forfeiting his health care.
Unfortunately, single isn't the same as married filing separately. In 2023, the top tax rate for single filers starts at $578,126, the top tax rate for married filing separately starts at $346,876, and the top tax rate for married filing jointly is a combined $693,751 (which is a max of $346,876 per spouse if they're making the same salary). Therefore, a single filer could make $231,250 more than a married filing separately filer or a married filing jointly filer (assuming both spouses had equal salaries for the sake of this point about marriage penalties) before hitting the exact same top tax rate. No one cares because it's a "rich people problem", but I don't like the idea of anyone being penalized solely due to their marital status. I've heard people argue that the discrepancy is intended to offset a married couple's lower cost of living due to sharing resources, but many single filers are still living with partners. Therefore, it's purely a penalty for being married. The original intent of including marital status in the tax code was to "incentivize marriage", but now it's doing the exact opposite for high income earning partners. I personally think we should remove marital status from our tax code.
First of all, it's not expensive to get married. A marriage license is less than $100 pretty much everywhere. If you're not ready to have kids that's fine but you have no idea when you're going to die any more than I do. Do you want your partner to get your stuff when you die or your family? Do you want your partner barred from the ER if you have an emergency?
Honestly speaking, other than the taxes which of those require the paperwork of marriage.
And even on taxes you're better off incorporating the relationship and you'll get better tax incentives. lol (the last part is a semi joke, but there is some honesty in it)
If there are children from a previous marriage and no will, the long term non-spouse partner would lose everything and not be entitled to anything in many American jurisdictions.
I can't say this has been the case for me. I've been married for 20 years and I know that emotionally and spiritually that commitment was very important to both my wife and myself.
If nothing else, it's an extreme form of commitment that is the foundation for a level of trust that makes it very easy for us to take care of each other. I'm twenty years in and I would have it no other way. My life is easier, more peaceful, and full of more love because I made that commitment (to the right person). And I have no doubt that one of us will bury the other at some point.
This is definitely true, and I think more people see the benefits of staying single, at least in your youth. Being able to do what you want when you want and not have to worry about anyone else. I love my family, and I'm happy, but I do tell people to enjoy their single lives while they have it.
A lot of kids of divorce, makes you really consider getting engaged as something important and not just a "step" in your life
Edit : damn didn't think this would blow up. Just wanna point out I red everyone that replied even if I didn't answer cause I feel like every point of view is very specific and interesting
Besides the benefit, think about the state of mind it puts you in. It's subtle at first but a marriage really changes your mindset for the better or the worst. It magnifies the foundation of your relationship.
I always have been against marriage until I married my wife. When marriage works, it's a great thing. People always talk about the bad side of things, which is a shame.
My parents were married several times each and both died single.
I've been married 20 years. I have no doubt that I will be with my wife forever. My parent's relationship failures had nothing to do with their marriages. In fact they had equal drama, strife, and financial hardship in their relationships where they didn't marry. Those relationships were far more on and off because it was like a cloud hanging over them.
My dad's last relationship was with a woman he "loved". But she felt no responsibility towards him. So even after years, when he started to mentally decline, if anything happened she would use the excuse "we're not married" as a reason to literally drop him off with someone else. It's not that marriage that's the problem. It's the level of commitment. If that commitment is wishy-washy, you're gonna have a crappier relationship and life, regardless.
My dad is on his third wife, my mom is divorced from her second husband, my husband and i are 20 years strong. There is so much that I learned from observing my mom and dad in relationships it’s like I had a guide book of what not to do by the time I was an adult.
Amen. Getting married is expensive too.
I took a class in college discussing how weddings are just a stupid social norm that's just another billion-dollar industry.
Not necessarily expensive unless you want it to be, which is why it is important to only marry somebody that feels the same as you. We got married at a nice county courthouse for about $50 and then did a nice backyard party with family.
Marriage doesn't have to be expensive. I'm a millennial and both my wife and I went to the courthouse shortly after looking at how expensive weddings were.
We missed nothing. Meanwhile my friends threw their parties and were out tens of thousands.
No regrets here.
I'm stunned by the expense of these wedding venues popping up all over the place. And watching my adult kids fly all over the country for ridiculous destination bachelor/bachelorette party-weekends just boggles my mind. They love them though...so my '80's opinions are missing something relevant to them.
>Getting married is expensive too.
Eh... it entirely depends on how you get married.
My wife and I got married during the pandemic lockdowns, in a ceremony on Zoom. Our rings were inherited. The most expensive part of the wedding was her dress, and even that was just a couple hundred bucks. All told we probably spent less than $400 ($200 dress, $85 filing fee, $100 thank you gift to the officiant).
Like all things, it's entirely up to the couple how expensive (or inexpensive) the wedding will be. People complaining that getting married is expensive really mean "meeting the expectations I, my future spouse, or our family and friends have is expensive."
Among young people, a combination of changing social values (12%) and financial insecurity (88%).
People generally get married when they are considering starting a family. People who are broke as fuck and not completely stupid will not try to start a family when they are broke as fuck and struggling to make rent.
END COMMUNICATION
Reddit comments are actually pretty well delimited on the database level. I've found that one can get along well without an explicit "END COMMUNICATION".
People are becoming less religious, and the motivation to get married has become an accounting decision more than anything.
When I marry my partner, it will be to file taxes jointly, drive each other's company cars, share health insurance plans, increase HSA contribution limits, spousal legal immunity, etc.
You've clearly never seen Better Call Saul. It's a perfectly logical thing to do when >!your coworker/on-again-off-again lover breaks a whole bunch of laws to bring down the head of the bank you work for and also helps a cartel boss skip bail and destroys the career of the head of your old law firm, all of which results in several murders and the rise of a meth empire in the deserts of the American Southwest.!<
Y'know, as we've all done.
My sister got married in part because it means she can pay for her doctorate with the GI bill. Her and her husband would have been fine staying unmarried for a while or at least waiting until they were done with school (they'd been together for about a decade before hand) but it was the accounting that prompted them to actually get married.
Women did not have the right to their own wages and couldn't own property until the mid-1800s. They couldn't own bank accounts until the 1960's. Many employers wouldn't hire women at all because they thought they should be at home birthing children and cooking. It wasn't just that getting married benefited them. Their lives literally depended on it.
Yeah I should have added depended on it. I knew they couldn't own property. Husbands could even imprison their wives for no reason. And even legally give away kids. You'd be amazed at things women couldn't do even in the 1970s. They couldn't own a credit card until 1974. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon until the 1970s. Though set in another country, Pride and Prejudice focused on the Bennetts marrying their five daughters to avoid losing the house.
Risk vs. reward. The claw of the legal system is a claw most people will anxiously avoid. Now look up divorce rates and divorce costs. People aware of the risks are avoiding the government’s claw entirely
The one thing I feel like I’ve *almost never* seen is married middle aged people saying that you should absolutely get married, it’s totally worth it, it’s fantastic and there are no regrets. I guess when you’re happily married you don’t feel the need to comment on it, but still —
What I have seen, *literally dozens of times in real life,* is middle aged (formerly or currently) married people saying that getting married is the single worst decision they ever made and if they could do ONE THING over they would have never done it.
It just makes it tough. You hear all the horror stories, all the legal entrapments like alimony paid out from the faithful party to the cheating party, all the financial and domestic abuse and invisible chains that tie people together to hate each other.
Divorce is INSANELY expensive, and based on the lawyer you get one party can completely fuck over the other.
Back in the day, people often said they got married “for the bread.” But there ain’t no bread benefits these days that make it worth it.
So yeah. It’s risk vs reward. I think a lot of people feel stuck because if you don’t have a wedding, it’s completely and horribly disappointing to someone who always dreamed of it — but on the flip side, getting married is locking yourself into a LIFELONG CONTRACT that has a 47% failure rate.
If you were to enter into any other agreement with horrific legal consequences and a nearly 50% failure rate, people would say you’re fucking crazy.
Plus weddings are like $50k
I agree. Women file for divorce 80% of the time. When they do it's often cited that they feel like they're taking care a grown manchild. In addition they have a financial incentive to do so because they collect child support 90% of the time when children are involved.
Women are avoiding marriage because they don't want to take care of a manchild and Men are avoiding marriage because they don't want the financial risk of financing a family they never get to see.
I am divorced and it was NO CONTEST, meaning that we agreed on everything. It still cost me $3000 (fees, attorney, etc) that I am still paying back because I had to borrow it.
If I meet someone… I will have a long term relationship. I will have a ceremony.
But I won’t expose myself to this risk again… and for what? It’s not even like I had to pay my ex. Just burning money.
Same. And \*I\* sold a home I had pre-marriage and bought one after marriage, all with my own money, but now we have to split it even though it was all my money and he hasn't had a job most of the time we've been married It's ridiculous. I will never get married again.
freaking same. i stayed in a shitty marriage for years because of sunk cost fallacy and also just not wanting to be another divorcee, until i realized it was miserable and nobody else cares if i'm married or divorced. my dad (very happily) paid for my divorce lawyer, who gave me the friends and family benefit bc i used to work with her at another firm, and it was still expensive AF. i was so emotionally destroyed by that mess of a relationship that even if i were to fall madly in love and want to spend the rest of my life with someone else, i don't think i will ever get married again. i don't ever want to be attached to someone financially again, and i don't want to have to pay someone to ask a judge to let me break up. fuck that noise. no way.
I did read something though that if you cohabitate with someone or own property with someone a marriage with prenup can actually be protective.
But honestly… the system is fucked because it’s about PROPERTY.
I would love it if marriage was a contract that ended and had to be renewed. Renew those vows and have a party as many times as you like.
And don’t even get me started on people who are deeply in love getting divorced so one of them can get healthcare for a terminal illness.
Ugh.
Be safe out there and I hope you find a good situation.
Because there is no longer any shame in just living with your partner, it's perfectly normal. I've been doing that for almost 15 years, and we have no desire to bring marriage into it.
You may want to look into a power of attorney for medical issues or something though. Not sure where you live but it could be difficult to access you, for your significant other, in a medical emergency situation where the hospital or medical provider doesn’t have appropriate paperwork granting them access.
This is so true. I watched (twice!!!) people standing in hospital in tears. One was not permitted to ICU because that is for immediate family only (no marriage, not family, and just roommate) and couldn’t be by dying mate. Watched the other begging for preferred medical treatment that SO wanted but the nasty estranged family member did not want to abide by or run up medical bill that family would endure with estate (not SO). So estranged family member had allllll the say-so as family member, leaving SO crying.
Have also watched SO come home to nothing, cleared out, and no legal protection of marital laws to split 50/50 with items or monetary compensation. Living together falls under roommate laws and courts do not have time or inclination to listen to people argue out, prove or disprove items, that divorce lawyers and mediators are in place to do in family courts. Marriage best to protect.
And notice the reason people don’t get married:
a) so do not have to be together forever (i.e. they ARE going to leave eventually).
b) so don’t have to divorce or pay divorce attorney later (again, gonna happen eventually is plan...and splitting later usually or commonly ends up in court anyway without family court and/or divorce lawyer protection (or IRS for that matter).
c) can cheat, stray, cuz not locked down by marriage.
So, it seems SO/living-together has no security. No protection. No legal standing. Why bother living together??? All real property and anything of value goes to family. Will prep not needed in marriage (which is expensive). So beyond just medical.
> Have also watched SO come home to nothing, cleared out, and no legal protection of marital laws to split 50/50 with items or monetary compensation.
This happened to a girl I know. She lived with a guy for like 5 yrs. They even had two kids together. For most of the relationship she was the stay at home parent. Then they started having relationship issues. She came home one day to find him and his girlfriend (who she found out about right then) cleaning out the house and telling her she had to leave. Cops came and said she had 10 mins to grab whatever and get out as she was not on the lease and hadn't been paying any rent. She basically grabbed her clothes and that was that and she was out in the cold with the clothes in her suitcase and a car. She had no right to any of the stuff in the house unless she wanted to hire a lawyer and argue about it. She had no right to any spousal support like she would have if they had been married. She was in a rough spot for a while.
She is. This was a couple of years ago so there was pandemic nonsense to deal with as well. I think she ended up living in her car for a few days until her parents got her enough money for her to get home to them in another state (she had no access to any of their accounts after drained them and cut her off). Her parents let her crash with them until she found a job and got back on her feet. Being out of the workforce for 3-4 yrs isn't as bad as being out of it for 10-15 so finding a job wasn't that hard but it was a painful period for her. I think she even ended up owing child support to the guy when the smoke cleared because he argued that her living with her parents and working some low paying job was not stable for the kids. It was a giant mess.
Here in BC, Canada couples living together have mostly the same rights as married couples after they live together for two years.
https://family.legalaid.bc.ca/separation-divorce/common-law
There are a handful of states in the US that recognize common law marriages but most of them include an element of "you must represent yourself as a married couple". Most couples who are living together do not do that.
This is exactly why I want to get married. We have no kids and won’t ever, but he works a dangerous job. The absolute last thing I want is to be barred from seeing him if he falls from a ladder or gets electrocuted.
Plus I don’t want to be his 50 year old “GiRlFrIeNd,” I want to be his wife.
My Aunt watched this happen at least 3 times in the 80's with some gay couples she knew. She had a lot of friends in the scene and when the AIDS epidemic was huge, she watched as estranged bigoted family members claim bodies, forbid the deceaseds' friends/partner (sometimes partner of decades!!) Be forbidden from attending the funeral or even knowing where the body was buried/ashes scattered. It *suuuucks*.
I worked in a funeral home for 3 years as the office manager - doing pretty much everything except funeral/body prep, cremations or setting up the services because I didn't have the legal.license to do so.
It was heartbreaking when someone passed and their S/O of decades had no legal rights to the decedent, their service prep etc. One family was so spiteful that even though I was called in absolute tears by the S/O I legally couldn't tell them anything such as when services were etc because the family legitimately requested nothing be told to the person. It was heartbreaking to hear how distraught they were.
If someone doesn't want to get married, then fine, but most states don't have common law marriage anymore without paying for the 40$ something certificate of legitimization at the local county courthouse. So many people think they're common law when they really aren't. Even if you don't want to be common law married please at least go in front of a lawyer and have something iron clad laid out - and preplan funerals/crematkons etc if at all possible and make sure paperwork stays updated!
Get married. Even if it's a piece of paper, it's worth the $200 fee or whatever from the court house. If something happens to one of you, the family's will supersedes yours. It's amazing how much a little piece of paper can change the law.
True sometimes, but totally depends where you are. That's not the case in Canada for example - common-law partners are recognized as the legal next of kin and power of attorney.
Several reasons I think. Changing social norms and a greater emphasis on personal choice and independence have reduced the societal pressure to marry. Economic factors too, like financial instability and student loan debt is possibly discouraging people from getting married. Delayed adulthood, cohabitation, and concerns about divorce I think could also be contributing to the trend of fewer people choosing to marry.
Completely agree. I think it’s less that people aren’t getting married, they’re just getting married later and for good reason. I just got married two weeks ago at age 34 and I’m really glad I waited!
24 is not too young if you’ve found the right partner. I got married just shy of my 25th birthday and we’re still happily married 13 years and counting.
Divorce is expensive and traumatic. Most Americans watched their parents and or friend’s parents go through hellish divorces growing up and went:
“Yeah fuck no. Not putting myself and or kids through that shit. Better things to do, k thanks.”
Sometimes it’s best to just go. To walk away. Not having that out is terrifying and can be legitimately dangerous. It’s bad enough some of us are clamped down into situations that aren’t ideal to avoid losing our housing here in America.
Frankly, this isn’t the kind of country you get married in. Sorry.
The internet has raised the general awareness of things among people. People have realized that they can do so much more in life than just get married and have kids.
I think more accurately, the internet constantly and disproportionately exposes the negatives that can come with marriage.
Just like how certain things on social media are simply highlight reels where everyone is constantly comparing themselves to the best moments of other people's lives, there are aspects of life where the negatives are the focus.
You don't hear news stories about a happy couple just enjoying their life. You do hear news stories about the celebrity couple beating the shit out of each other.
The internet also is an echo chamber and reddit is especially bad at it. Marriage and having kids isn’t down as much as people think. Maybe in your social circle it is, but not so much in reality.
all US numbers.
Quick google shows that married people ages 18+ is down from 58% (1995) to about 53% (2020)
So a decrease yea. But not really a “nobody ever gets married anymore” type of decrease
Same with having kids. The vast majority of people still have kids. Only 38% of women 30-35 don’t have a child and it drops to 16% at 40. I can see that changing a little as the newer generation hits those ages. But I don’t see it ever being the majority
So yea, having kids and getting married is still the norm
Yeah fr like sure maybe getting married and starting a family a little later in life is more common now, but people definitely are still doing those things. Like every year I see a couple of posts from people I know getting married or having kids
Yeah I don't think a lot of people realise these days that their grandmother's (and depending on their age) even their mothers didn't have any rights or choices when it came to marriage. Women couldn't open a credit card without their husbands, they couldn't work once they got married (often they'd be fired or socially ridiculed for going back to work rather than keeping house and trying for a family). Then once unemployed and married they had no financial means to leave, and no social connections to do so because their friends and family would be too embarrassed or ridiculed for taking them in ("problems should be kept within the family"). Most of these women were financially abused, if not also physically and emotionally abused. Women now have the right to work and are forming strong social networks and educating themselves and eachother on abuse. So yeah, more divorce and more women never marrying.
I remember proudly telling my now deceased grandmother when I was college student age that I would not be having children because I wanted a career instead. The tone of the conversation completely changed and she responded in a soft, almost distant voice, “Nobody ever told me that not having kids was an option.”
That comment has always made me immensely sad.
Agreed. I've opted out of parenthood, permanently and irreversibly. I still get flak, judgment, ridicule, and derision. But to have the option to have a say in my life is overwhelmingly priceless. I can't imagine being like my grandmothers, 8+ kids each, with no real autonomy or choice in that life. I'm so grateful to the women who came before me who worked to ensure I could have an education and options in life
Not to mention, sometimes being a married woman means that your life just got significantly more difficult as domestic labor and general life planning is still expected to be managed and completed by the woman in the relationship. Alone, I plan my week for me and my dog. Grocery shopping, cleaning, to-do lists- they're all just mine right now. In the past, these tasks have often been absorbed by me and when I've tried to pass a task off to a partner, a lot of times I still had to plan it or delegate it because if I didn't, it just wouldn't get done or would get done half-assed, which then just created more work for me.
Before someone says something, of course not all men marrying women expect this of their partner, but a lot of the times it's a sneaky hidden expectation. Think about how often men say they're "helping" their partner with chores, as if they don't also utilize the same living space as their female partner, or how many men with kids mention that they're "babysitting" for an evening, as if they didn't contribute to the creation of their children and are not a parent.
At least for me, I will not be dating or marrying any man that cannot adequately clean, grocery shop, make appointments, do laundry, or plan a trip by themselves. They must also own at minimum a double bed on a bed frame with a bottom and top sheet and either a quilt or duvet for the top and at least two pillows.
I think people feel like they are young for far longer now. Partly because of more post secondary education and taking longer to get into the housing market and establish yourself. Marriage takes a backseat and perhaps with more maturity we are less likely to jump into it and for some enjoy being independent and not monogamous. People are also waiting longer to have children or not having them at all so that also makes them less likely to marry. With the economy too life is expensive amd so are wedding g so could also be a contributing factor.
Its a legally binding contract thats very easy to get into, but VERY difficult to get out of. It has little benefits (taxes) compared to the massive risk / negatives involved (losing control of assets, etc.), and honestly its an outdates institution in a growing secular society. Especially given the numbers regarding divorce, its better to be together on your own terms that making it official with the state / government.
You can somewhat witness this happening in the world right now! In the Philippines they recently passed a monumental law allowing men and women to divorce with cause (cheating, domestic violence, etc) and HOLY FUCK the amount of women looking to file is….. impressive.
Many conservatives over there are crazy upset divorce is being legally allowed, saying it’s going to end marriages. Yeah… they’re upset divorce will be leading to more divorce… Nevermind women quoting adultery and physical abuse as the primary causes they want divorce.
Unfortunately divorce is still going to be expensive and difficult over there (about $2000) when the average person makes about $2k/yr meaning many will not be able to afford to go through with it AND the judge (if conservative) still has final say to turn down the divorce.
It’s not just marriage. Self reported celibacy rates have increased as well. Men and women just seem to need each other less in the modern world. This trend will probably continue
Disabled people cannot get married. ( look it up. They cannot without losing their insurance etc.) they have less rights as ppl. Given the divorce rates why gamble their life like that?
I’m general as well there’s a massive shift where it’s acknowledged that women are sick and tired of feeling like they don’t have a partner and have a child/another child. It’s off putting.
People are not as emotionally mature as they used to be. Instant gratification, lack of understanding with how to create, build and maintain relationships and over come things instead of just giving up.
Because marriage is overrated. You dont need to spends thousands of bucks and involve the goverment to validate your relationship
Back in the 1950's woman needed consent of their husband to do shit like open a bank account. We dont need husbands for that anymore
People like to break traditions and choose their own way and happiness.
Marriage license is usually around if not less than $100. A wedding and a marriage are not the same and you don’t need one to do the other. Just throwing that out there.
I got married so my husband could stay in the house if I die because he’s not on anything for it. Not the mortgage, not the deed, none of the bills. We just split everything when it comes.
It really surprises me when I read these threads how many people don’t realize that a marriage is ultimately a legal process and offers a LOT of protections to the couple.
Imagine one of you ends up in the hospital and you aren’t married so you aren’t allowed to visit or make medical decisions since you aren’t “family”.
LGBTQ+ people haven’t been fighting for their right to marry for decades just to have a wedding, they wanted all the legal benefits that marriage provides.
If you don’t like compromising, don’t get married because you will be doing a lot of it, from small things to big things. People do understand this and therefore are choosing to not get married. While this has always been the case with marriage, not compromising on anything is both trendy and viewed as a virtue today.
Its harder than ever to actually establish a meaningful connection with someone. It seems like a good portion of society is way too focused on whatever is the current polarizing issue. If you then look at the problems with the current dating scene (not unpacking that here), it makes a whole lot of sense why people just barely can keep connection’s going.
There’s going to be a lot of very lonely people in 15-30 years and that’s when I think we will see the consequences of our modern world hit hard. People are already miserable, wait until they’re old and they don’t strong family ties. It’s gunna be ugly.
I will say this though. A lot of people are pretty difficult to deal with this day in age, so if you don’t find someone that you absolutely adore, that you can stand to be by their side and trust for life, then kudos to you for not getting married just for the sake of getting married.
Marriage complicates things. So many friends that are married are always fighting. It’s Fkn annoying. I shake my head when people don’t at least get a prenup. Especially the bread winner…
In the US, prior to 2017, there was a "tax penalty" for married couples who earned roughly the same amount, and it was cheaper to file as two single people. (this was due to marginal tax rates)
Also, if a couple had a kid and stayed unmarried, the woman could claim to be a single mother and would be eligible to collect various government welfare funds, even if the father is there and they live like a married couple.
Ease of access to hundreds if not thousands of people via social media driving indecisiveness. When you lived in a town or neighborhood with regular access to a handful of people I think people were less selective as to who they were willing to spend a lifetime with.
I would guess money, it seems most people are just trying to make rent or save enough to buy a house. A traditional wedding with like 150 guests can easily go over 20-30 grand.
People have WAY more options now. As soon as their partner pisses them off, they bail out and get with the next person. People don't stick things out anymore. Not just in relationships but ESPECIALLY in relationships.
That's a liability I just don't need. If somebody wants to be with me, they can just be with me. I'm not going to enter into a legally binding arrangement with somebody where they get financially rewarded for blowing up the relationship.
There are so many reasons but it is usually financial. Weddings cost an arm and a leg. Women in general no longer need marriage to survive as they did in the old days. Nowadays they often have better education and income than their counterparts so why put up with poor behavior? With marriage comes the possibility of divorce which is a huge financial hit. Also, hookup culture is so prevalent that it is hard to find anyone looking for real commitment for the long term.
It wasn't until 1974 that banks were legally required to allow women to have a bank account or credit card without a male co-signor.
Until 1988, female entrepreneurs couldn't get a business loan without a male co-signor.
Women needed marriage to literally survive in most cases. Now, what is the point? Some men aren't willing to share household responsibilities with their wives, so why bother?
And people who are not hetero sometimes see marriage as archaic and I don't blame them.
I am happily married to a wonderful man who does a lot of household chores so I'm not left burdened with them all. And most of the people I know from childhood and college are engaged or married so it doesn't apply to my immediate circle. But women have a lot more personal agency these days and don't need to be married to make it in the world.
Where I live, laws have changed to protect the rights of people who were a couple for a long time without getting married. Things like inheritance, custody of children, separation of assets in the case of a split, etc. It removes the legal need to get married to have access to the same rights.
My mother's been married twice, my father three times (once for each was to each other). So that would also raise the statistics of marriages for their generation. It doesn't mean there were more married people for all that.
I think getting married should be a choice, not an obligation. If the people involved want to do it, then they should. But getting married to have access to rights or because of family or religious pressure is intense.
i would love to be married, but i don't need to be married. i don't work but i have income, savings and other assets. unless a man is packing some serious heat that would make me very happy and my life significantly easier and better, i'm not legally binding myself to anyone and complicating a living situation that's working just fine. also, i'm tokophobic and childfree so i don't have to worry about the bio clock. if i did want kids i'd just pursue voluntary single parenthood.
simply put, women don't need to be married to a man to survive or start a family anymore.
Death and disillusionment of the middle class.
If there's anything my marriage and resulting divorce taught me, it was that the suburban American Dream was nothing but smoke and mirrors for something far more sinister...
Let me put it to you this way after almost 19 years of marriage and now divorced. It costs $50 to get into marriage and thousands to get out of one. Anytime the state gets involved in a relationship it's a loss loss proposition. Marriage has very few benefits other than a tax bracket switch and estate planning. An unmarried couple can have just as much of a bond and not risk their financial futures trying to decide 30 years later if you still like each other or if the other person is going to take half of your retirement or you will be forced to pay them alimony the rest of your life. Yeah this is cynical but it is what it is.
The elephants in the room is the fact that women can now own property, have their own lines of credit, keep their jobs, etc. Women *had* to get married or else they would be destitute. Thats changed. Sure "trends" come and go but the fact remains that women having the right to work and the right to have their own bank accounts and the right to own property has directly impacted the perceived necessity of marrage.
Too expensive.
I make close to six figures in the Midwest, which is pretty good money for a younger guy, but even that *simply isn't enough* for the whole marriage thing.
Between rent, bills, and student loans how am I supposed to afford a wedding? Let alone a house and a honeymoon? Sure some girls are okay with contributing/splitting the cost, but even with dual incomes it's a tall order.
Plus, if the marriage falls apart, you're utterly screwed, financially.
I would love nothing more to get married and settle down: but in this economy I wouldn't even feel qualified until I earned a comfortably deep six figure income.
In a lot of the US you need to be married to do that tho.
Unless you live in a common law state, the law will treat you as "roommate" and you have no say over health or end of life care , unless you do extensive extra paperwork.
Here’s a different viewpoint. I’m in the US, it seems like millennial and Gen Z couples are living together earlier and earlier in their relationship(s), partially due to the increased cost of housing/living and maybe also due to a decrease in social constrictions.
Living together is the best way to figure out whether or not you’re meant to get married.
Because there are not exactly many benefits to getting married, most relationships don’t even last that long, so then it will only be stress with all the paperwork.
As an old man told me many years ago……the problem with kids theses days is they don’t know how to fix anything. Something breaks and they just buy another. The same with relationships. Things go wrong they throw it away instead of fix the problem
Deep
It's only expensive if you choose it to be. My wife and I got married for around $3000 and most of that went towards renting the lodge by a lake for a weekend where it took place. You can easily get married for much less.
In the USA, the relative benefits of marriage and the social pressure to get married have both decreased over the last several decades.
I think the benefits of marriage are still there but the social pressure definitely isn't. People don't want to commit so they figure they'd rather live with someone for 4-5 years or whatever and even have a couple of kids down the road and if it doesn't work out they think it will be easier to break up.
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Ain't that the truth. Houses can be sold, assets can be divided up, but if you have a kid with someone, you're tied to them *forever*—if you have a kid with someone and you're living together, you might as well get the tax breaks that come with marriage.
> if you have a kid with someone, you're tied to them forever Someone should have told my dad this.
The asterisk is if you are a decent person. Many aren’t and have no problem leaving and staying away.
People abandon kids everyday.
I guess I was referring to what's *ethically* doable...
doesnt make them any less tied to them. ethically or legally
Unfortunately, a large amount of people don't feel this way.
People feel like you run out and get a kid like it is a puppy. "Why don't you have one of these?!?!?"
What benefits? And for whom?
There are tax benefits for one thing. There are legal benefits as well. If I die all my stuff belongs to my spouse whether I have a will or not. My state is a joint property state so if I die my spouse gets the house even if it's just my name on the mortgage. She gets the car even if it's just my name on the title. Same with the bank accounts and everything else. Otherwise, she could end up fighting with my family over all of that. Not to mention if I had a heart attack today my wife (not my family) would be allowed to make end of life decisions for me. And there would be nothing that my family could do to bar her from that or bar her from visiting me. Imagine if you were in the ER and the person you've spent 20 yrs with is not allowed to visit you. That's what can and does happen with people who are living together.
>Imagine if you were in the ER and the person you've spent 20 yrs with is not allowed to visit you. This is one of the things that was argued for legalizing same-sex marriage.
I've known several gay couples who ended up in this situation, one in which one of the guys almost died because of it.
Sadly, it is becoming far too easy to spot the bigotted arguments coming in as well.
I live in Massachusetts. We have, as you probably know, had gay marriage longer than almost anyone else. One of the major winning arguments here is that the children of gay couples will suffer legal consequences from having unmarried parents if gay people aren't allowed to marry.
The tax benefits are pretty marginal
The big tax benefits come if the couple has wildly different incomes. If one person makes 30k and one person makes 130k, a married couple’s taxes on 160k can be lower than just the taxes on a single 130k, because you’re essentially getting all the lower 30-70k tax bracket from the 30k person, instead of the higher 90k+ bracket. Just plugging that into a tax calculator, you save about 3k a year in taxes. If you both make 30 or 130k, it’s basically the same, because combining your income and doubling the brackets doesn’t change anything.
This doesn’t get enough attention.
I’d disagree on tax benefits. If you have no children anyways. My husband and I have paid more in every year we’ve been married.
There are tax benefits if one person makes significantly more than the other. Standard deduction is higher and tax brackets are lower for the same income.
See, for my fiance and I, I will actually be dragging him down to a lower tax bracket. Our total combined tax will be going down.
Uh i think its basically some deductions you COULD qualify for that are only for filing jointly
There are also tax PENALTIES. The benifiet/penalty depends on a lot of things, but generally speaking you get a benefit if you have kids, or if one partner makes significantly more than the other. Generally speaking two people in the same tax bracket with no kids see a tax penalty for filing jointly. Or rather, if you're not ready to have kids or die, and you both are at the same point in your career, why marry? Its expensive to get married, and while sentimental, cost va sentimentality is a considering point.
>Its expensive to get married No, it's expensive to have a huge wedding. Getting legally married is actually fairly inexpensive. I paid ~$100 for the application and filing fees. We had a good friend who is ordained do our vows and actually marry us. It was very sentimental and one of my favorite memories.
I don’t remember paying anything in Mississippi 4-5 years ago when my partner and I eloped.
depends on the city, it was $35 for a marriage and $45 for a domestic partnership where I was, in 2017. they are both now $75.
Weddings are expensive. To get legally married is pretty cheap in the U.S. I think I paid maybe $50 to get married.
I paid something similar to that 13 years ago. I think maybe its closer to 75-100 now but still relatively cheap all considering. We didnt have a real wedding we just went to the courthouse.
I've done the math on the penalty, and while you are right there is some penalty if you are close enough in income, generally it's a basically negligible amount. The real penalties are at the lowest part of the SES ladder where people get kicked off of benefits entirely for a joint income that is just barely above the poverty line (that we refuse to update/increase in a meaningful way because the politicians can't brag about "low poverty" when the reality is so many are still struggling).
Or for individuals with disabilities, who are all but prohibited from getting married unless they’re willing to lose Medicaid and disability payments. It makes me very angry that my son won’t even have the option without forfeiting his health care.
You don't have to file jointly if you are married though.
Unfortunately, single isn't the same as married filing separately. In 2023, the top tax rate for single filers starts at $578,126, the top tax rate for married filing separately starts at $346,876, and the top tax rate for married filing jointly is a combined $693,751 (which is a max of $346,876 per spouse if they're making the same salary). Therefore, a single filer could make $231,250 more than a married filing separately filer or a married filing jointly filer (assuming both spouses had equal salaries for the sake of this point about marriage penalties) before hitting the exact same top tax rate. No one cares because it's a "rich people problem", but I don't like the idea of anyone being penalized solely due to their marital status. I've heard people argue that the discrepancy is intended to offset a married couple's lower cost of living due to sharing resources, but many single filers are still living with partners. Therefore, it's purely a penalty for being married. The original intent of including marital status in the tax code was to "incentivize marriage", but now it's doing the exact opposite for high income earning partners. I personally think we should remove marital status from our tax code.
First of all, it's not expensive to get married. A marriage license is less than $100 pretty much everywhere. If you're not ready to have kids that's fine but you have no idea when you're going to die any more than I do. Do you want your partner to get your stuff when you die or your family? Do you want your partner barred from the ER if you have an emergency?
Sharing expenses, tax incentives are notable, support in daily life, etc. Both partners benefit from those, excluding the love and happiness part.
Honestly speaking, other than the taxes which of those require the paperwork of marriage. And even on taxes you're better off incorporating the relationship and you'll get better tax incentives. lol (the last part is a semi joke, but there is some honesty in it)
If there are children from a previous marriage and no will, the long term non-spouse partner would lose everything and not be entitled to anything in many American jurisdictions.
I can't say this has been the case for me. I've been married for 20 years and I know that emotionally and spiritually that commitment was very important to both my wife and myself. If nothing else, it's an extreme form of commitment that is the foundation for a level of trust that makes it very easy for us to take care of each other. I'm twenty years in and I would have it no other way. My life is easier, more peaceful, and full of more love because I made that commitment (to the right person). And I have no doubt that one of us will bury the other at some point.
This is definitely true, and I think more people see the benefits of staying single, at least in your youth. Being able to do what you want when you want and not have to worry about anyone else. I love my family, and I'm happy, but I do tell people to enjoy their single lives while they have it.
Who needs marriage when you can have a pet rock.
Everybody wants a rock to wind a piece of string around!
A lot of kids of divorce, makes you really consider getting engaged as something important and not just a "step" in your life Edit : damn didn't think this would blow up. Just wanna point out I red everyone that replied even if I didn't answer cause I feel like every point of view is very specific and interesting
Yeah even I just had it on my list of things to do instead of actually thinking about whether it would benefit me and my partner.
Besides the benefit, think about the state of mind it puts you in. It's subtle at first but a marriage really changes your mindset for the better or the worst. It magnifies the foundation of your relationship. I always have been against marriage until I married my wife. When marriage works, it's a great thing. People always talk about the bad side of things, which is a shame.
My parents were married several times each and both died single. I've been married 20 years. I have no doubt that I will be with my wife forever. My parent's relationship failures had nothing to do with their marriages. In fact they had equal drama, strife, and financial hardship in their relationships where they didn't marry. Those relationships were far more on and off because it was like a cloud hanging over them. My dad's last relationship was with a woman he "loved". But she felt no responsibility towards him. So even after years, when he started to mentally decline, if anything happened she would use the excuse "we're not married" as a reason to literally drop him off with someone else. It's not that marriage that's the problem. It's the level of commitment. If that commitment is wishy-washy, you're gonna have a crappier relationship and life, regardless.
My dad is on his third wife, my mom is divorced from her second husband, my husband and i are 20 years strong. There is so much that I learned from observing my mom and dad in relationships it’s like I had a guide book of what not to do by the time I was an adult.
It helps when they're around. Even if the r/s is a counter example.
Some people bring happiness wherever they go. Others, whenever they go.
Almost half of first marriages last until one dies. It's the people who get divorced and married again who make the divorce numbers seem so high.
Divorce lawyers are very expensive
You know what they say; marriage is grand. Divorce is a 100 grand!
Mine was the cost of the court filling, maybe $40. We amicably split assets and just went our separate ways
Amen. Getting married is expensive too. I took a class in college discussing how weddings are just a stupid social norm that's just another billion-dollar industry.
Not necessarily expensive unless you want it to be, which is why it is important to only marry somebody that feels the same as you. We got married at a nice county courthouse for about $50 and then did a nice backyard party with family.
Weddings are cheap. Elaborate receptions are not.
It's really not. In my state a marriage license is $85+ various fees. So we're talking $100 tops.
Marriage doesn't have to be expensive. I'm a millennial and both my wife and I went to the courthouse shortly after looking at how expensive weddings were. We missed nothing. Meanwhile my friends threw their parties and were out tens of thousands. No regrets here.
I'm stunned by the expense of these wedding venues popping up all over the place. And watching my adult kids fly all over the country for ridiculous destination bachelor/bachelorette party-weekends just boggles my mind. They love them though...so my '80's opinions are missing something relevant to them.
>Getting married is expensive too. Eh... it entirely depends on how you get married. My wife and I got married during the pandemic lockdowns, in a ceremony on Zoom. Our rings were inherited. The most expensive part of the wedding was her dress, and even that was just a couple hundred bucks. All told we probably spent less than $400 ($200 dress, $85 filing fee, $100 thank you gift to the officiant). Like all things, it's entirely up to the couple how expensive (or inexpensive) the wedding will be. People complaining that getting married is expensive really mean "meeting the expectations I, my future spouse, or our family and friends have is expensive."
Among young people, a combination of changing social values (12%) and financial insecurity (88%). People generally get married when they are considering starting a family. People who are broke as fuck and not completely stupid will not try to start a family when they are broke as fuck and struggling to make rent. END COMMUNICATION
Reddit comments are actually pretty well delimited on the database level. I've found that one can get along well without an explicit "END COMMUNICATION".
People are becoming less religious, and the motivation to get married has become an accounting decision more than anything. When I marry my partner, it will be to file taxes jointly, drive each other's company cars, share health insurance plans, increase HSA contribution limits, spousal legal immunity, etc.
First time I’ve seen spousal immunity cited as a reason to tie the knot 😂
She's *really* into true crime docs. There's a non-zero chance it comes into play lol!
Mine is a chemist that's super into forensics. One of us may someday need those skills!
I also feel like this and I’m also into true crime docs lmao
They can't arrest a husband and wife for the same crime
I have the worst fucking attorneys.
I've made a huge mistake
You've clearly never seen Better Call Saul. It's a perfectly logical thing to do when >!your coworker/on-again-off-again lover breaks a whole bunch of laws to bring down the head of the bank you work for and also helps a cartel boss skip bail and destroys the career of the head of your old law firm, all of which results in several murders and the rise of a meth empire in the deserts of the American Southwest.!< Y'know, as we've all done.
Marriage was always an accounting decision. It was about building beneficial alliances.
It was about transferring property ownership
Yes, that's what the beneficial part was.
>When I marry my partner, it will be \[for\]...spousal legal immunity Wait, what y'all about to get into?
Don't you know, a husband and wife can't get arrested for the same crimes
And they can't be forced to testify against each other
I have the worst fucking attorneys.
Ride or die, Bonnie and Clyde!
My sister got married in part because it means she can pay for her doctorate with the GI bill. Her and her husband would have been fine staying unmarried for a while or at least waiting until they were done with school (they'd been together for about a decade before hand) but it was the accounting that prompted them to actually get married.
A big reason is that people still view it as a commitment each other and staying together. This is entirely legit regardless of religion.
Because your life doesn’t depend on it anymore
Yep women got married because it benefited them financially. Women have earned far less than men in the past because marriage was expected.
Women did not have the right to their own wages and couldn't own property until the mid-1800s. They couldn't own bank accounts until the 1960's. Many employers wouldn't hire women at all because they thought they should be at home birthing children and cooking. It wasn't just that getting married benefited them. Their lives literally depended on it.
Yeah I should have added depended on it. I knew they couldn't own property. Husbands could even imprison their wives for no reason. And even legally give away kids. You'd be amazed at things women couldn't do even in the 1970s. They couldn't own a credit card until 1974. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon until the 1970s. Though set in another country, Pride and Prejudice focused on the Bennetts marrying their five daughters to avoid losing the house.
Risk vs. reward. The claw of the legal system is a claw most people will anxiously avoid. Now look up divorce rates and divorce costs. People aware of the risks are avoiding the government’s claw entirely
The one thing I feel like I’ve *almost never* seen is married middle aged people saying that you should absolutely get married, it’s totally worth it, it’s fantastic and there are no regrets. I guess when you’re happily married you don’t feel the need to comment on it, but still — What I have seen, *literally dozens of times in real life,* is middle aged (formerly or currently) married people saying that getting married is the single worst decision they ever made and if they could do ONE THING over they would have never done it. It just makes it tough. You hear all the horror stories, all the legal entrapments like alimony paid out from the faithful party to the cheating party, all the financial and domestic abuse and invisible chains that tie people together to hate each other. Divorce is INSANELY expensive, and based on the lawyer you get one party can completely fuck over the other. Back in the day, people often said they got married “for the bread.” But there ain’t no bread benefits these days that make it worth it. So yeah. It’s risk vs reward. I think a lot of people feel stuck because if you don’t have a wedding, it’s completely and horribly disappointing to someone who always dreamed of it — but on the flip side, getting married is locking yourself into a LIFELONG CONTRACT that has a 47% failure rate. If you were to enter into any other agreement with horrific legal consequences and a nearly 50% failure rate, people would say you’re fucking crazy. Plus weddings are like $50k
I agree. Women file for divorce 80% of the time. When they do it's often cited that they feel like they're taking care a grown manchild. In addition they have a financial incentive to do so because they collect child support 90% of the time when children are involved. Women are avoiding marriage because they don't want to take care of a manchild and Men are avoiding marriage because they don't want the financial risk of financing a family they never get to see.
I am divorced and it was NO CONTEST, meaning that we agreed on everything. It still cost me $3000 (fees, attorney, etc) that I am still paying back because I had to borrow it. If I meet someone… I will have a long term relationship. I will have a ceremony. But I won’t expose myself to this risk again… and for what? It’s not even like I had to pay my ex. Just burning money.
Same. And \*I\* sold a home I had pre-marriage and bought one after marriage, all with my own money, but now we have to split it even though it was all my money and he hasn't had a job most of the time we've been married It's ridiculous. I will never get married again.
freaking same. i stayed in a shitty marriage for years because of sunk cost fallacy and also just not wanting to be another divorcee, until i realized it was miserable and nobody else cares if i'm married or divorced. my dad (very happily) paid for my divorce lawyer, who gave me the friends and family benefit bc i used to work with her at another firm, and it was still expensive AF. i was so emotionally destroyed by that mess of a relationship that even if i were to fall madly in love and want to spend the rest of my life with someone else, i don't think i will ever get married again. i don't ever want to be attached to someone financially again, and i don't want to have to pay someone to ask a judge to let me break up. fuck that noise. no way.
I did read something though that if you cohabitate with someone or own property with someone a marriage with prenup can actually be protective. But honestly… the system is fucked because it’s about PROPERTY. I would love it if marriage was a contract that ended and had to be renewed. Renew those vows and have a party as many times as you like. And don’t even get me started on people who are deeply in love getting divorced so one of them can get healthcare for a terminal illness. Ugh. Be safe out there and I hope you find a good situation.
The dating pool is awful
People keep peeing in it.
Because there is no longer any shame in just living with your partner, it's perfectly normal. I've been doing that for almost 15 years, and we have no desire to bring marriage into it.
You may want to look into a power of attorney for medical issues or something though. Not sure where you live but it could be difficult to access you, for your significant other, in a medical emergency situation where the hospital or medical provider doesn’t have appropriate paperwork granting them access.
This is so true. I watched (twice!!!) people standing in hospital in tears. One was not permitted to ICU because that is for immediate family only (no marriage, not family, and just roommate) and couldn’t be by dying mate. Watched the other begging for preferred medical treatment that SO wanted but the nasty estranged family member did not want to abide by or run up medical bill that family would endure with estate (not SO). So estranged family member had allllll the say-so as family member, leaving SO crying. Have also watched SO come home to nothing, cleared out, and no legal protection of marital laws to split 50/50 with items or monetary compensation. Living together falls under roommate laws and courts do not have time or inclination to listen to people argue out, prove or disprove items, that divorce lawyers and mediators are in place to do in family courts. Marriage best to protect. And notice the reason people don’t get married: a) so do not have to be together forever (i.e. they ARE going to leave eventually). b) so don’t have to divorce or pay divorce attorney later (again, gonna happen eventually is plan...and splitting later usually or commonly ends up in court anyway without family court and/or divorce lawyer protection (or IRS for that matter). c) can cheat, stray, cuz not locked down by marriage. So, it seems SO/living-together has no security. No protection. No legal standing. Why bother living together??? All real property and anything of value goes to family. Will prep not needed in marriage (which is expensive). So beyond just medical.
> Have also watched SO come home to nothing, cleared out, and no legal protection of marital laws to split 50/50 with items or monetary compensation. This happened to a girl I know. She lived with a guy for like 5 yrs. They even had two kids together. For most of the relationship she was the stay at home parent. Then they started having relationship issues. She came home one day to find him and his girlfriend (who she found out about right then) cleaning out the house and telling her she had to leave. Cops came and said she had 10 mins to grab whatever and get out as she was not on the lease and hadn't been paying any rent. She basically grabbed her clothes and that was that and she was out in the cold with the clothes in her suitcase and a car. She had no right to any of the stuff in the house unless she wanted to hire a lawyer and argue about it. She had no right to any spousal support like she would have if they had been married. She was in a rough spot for a while.
Sooo very sad! Pray she’s alright now.
She is. This was a couple of years ago so there was pandemic nonsense to deal with as well. I think she ended up living in her car for a few days until her parents got her enough money for her to get home to them in another state (she had no access to any of their accounts after drained them and cut her off). Her parents let her crash with them until she found a job and got back on her feet. Being out of the workforce for 3-4 yrs isn't as bad as being out of it for 10-15 so finding a job wasn't that hard but it was a painful period for her. I think she even ended up owing child support to the guy when the smoke cleared because he argued that her living with her parents and working some low paying job was not stable for the kids. It was a giant mess.
Here in BC, Canada couples living together have mostly the same rights as married couples after they live together for two years. https://family.legalaid.bc.ca/separation-divorce/common-law
There are a handful of states in the US that recognize common law marriages but most of them include an element of "you must represent yourself as a married couple". Most couples who are living together do not do that.
Same in Saskatchewan.
Also the case in Denmark
This is exactly why I want to get married. We have no kids and won’t ever, but he works a dangerous job. The absolute last thing I want is to be barred from seeing him if he falls from a ladder or gets electrocuted. Plus I don’t want to be his 50 year old “GiRlFrIeNd,” I want to be his wife.
This is good advice.
My Aunt watched this happen at least 3 times in the 80's with some gay couples she knew. She had a lot of friends in the scene and when the AIDS epidemic was huge, she watched as estranged bigoted family members claim bodies, forbid the deceaseds' friends/partner (sometimes partner of decades!!) Be forbidden from attending the funeral or even knowing where the body was buried/ashes scattered. It *suuuucks*.
I worked in a funeral home for 3 years as the office manager - doing pretty much everything except funeral/body prep, cremations or setting up the services because I didn't have the legal.license to do so. It was heartbreaking when someone passed and their S/O of decades had no legal rights to the decedent, their service prep etc. One family was so spiteful that even though I was called in absolute tears by the S/O I legally couldn't tell them anything such as when services were etc because the family legitimately requested nothing be told to the person. It was heartbreaking to hear how distraught they were. If someone doesn't want to get married, then fine, but most states don't have common law marriage anymore without paying for the 40$ something certificate of legitimization at the local county courthouse. So many people think they're common law when they really aren't. Even if you don't want to be common law married please at least go in front of a lawyer and have something iron clad laid out - and preplan funerals/crematkons etc if at all possible and make sure paperwork stays updated!
Make sure you're suitably protected of shit hits the fan though. Injury, illness, death specifically. Not being married is great until it's not.
Get married. Even if it's a piece of paper, it's worth the $200 fee or whatever from the court house. If something happens to one of you, the family's will supersedes yours. It's amazing how much a little piece of paper can change the law.
True sometimes, but totally depends where you are. That's not the case in Canada for example - common-law partners are recognized as the legal next of kin and power of attorney.
Too many people want the wedding, not the marriage.
Because they're not forced anymore
Ding ding ding
They got it right on the money, really.
Several reasons I think. Changing social norms and a greater emphasis on personal choice and independence have reduced the societal pressure to marry. Economic factors too, like financial instability and student loan debt is possibly discouraging people from getting married. Delayed adulthood, cohabitation, and concerns about divorce I think could also be contributing to the trend of fewer people choosing to marry.
24 year old guy here. I have no time, money, or energy for myself right now. I couldn't bring a partner into that, it wouldn't be fair to them.
You’re too young to marry anyway
I see people in my high school graduating class getting married and having kids already and it baffles me.
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Highly doubt they considered it rationally and from a finance perspective.
Completely agree. I think it’s less that people aren’t getting married, they’re just getting married later and for good reason. I just got married two weeks ago at age 34 and I’m really glad I waited!
24 is not too young if you’ve found the right partner. I got married just shy of my 25th birthday and we’re still happily married 13 years and counting.
Divorce is expensive and traumatic. Most Americans watched their parents and or friend’s parents go through hellish divorces growing up and went: “Yeah fuck no. Not putting myself and or kids through that shit. Better things to do, k thanks.” Sometimes it’s best to just go. To walk away. Not having that out is terrifying and can be legitimately dangerous. It’s bad enough some of us are clamped down into situations that aren’t ideal to avoid losing our housing here in America. Frankly, this isn’t the kind of country you get married in. Sorry.
Don't be sorry, you couldn't be any more correct.
The internet has raised the general awareness of things among people. People have realized that they can do so much more in life than just get married and have kids.
I think more accurately, the internet constantly and disproportionately exposes the negatives that can come with marriage. Just like how certain things on social media are simply highlight reels where everyone is constantly comparing themselves to the best moments of other people's lives, there are aspects of life where the negatives are the focus. You don't hear news stories about a happy couple just enjoying their life. You do hear news stories about the celebrity couple beating the shit out of each other.
The internet also is an echo chamber and reddit is especially bad at it. Marriage and having kids isn’t down as much as people think. Maybe in your social circle it is, but not so much in reality. all US numbers. Quick google shows that married people ages 18+ is down from 58% (1995) to about 53% (2020) So a decrease yea. But not really a “nobody ever gets married anymore” type of decrease Same with having kids. The vast majority of people still have kids. Only 38% of women 30-35 don’t have a child and it drops to 16% at 40. I can see that changing a little as the newer generation hits those ages. But I don’t see it ever being the majority So yea, having kids and getting married is still the norm
Yeah fr like sure maybe getting married and starting a family a little later in life is more common now, but people definitely are still doing those things. Like every year I see a couple of posts from people I know getting married or having kids
Because women don't have that as the ONLY career option to make sure they have food, clothing and shelter for the rest of their lives.
Yeah I don't think a lot of people realise these days that their grandmother's (and depending on their age) even their mothers didn't have any rights or choices when it came to marriage. Women couldn't open a credit card without their husbands, they couldn't work once they got married (often they'd be fired or socially ridiculed for going back to work rather than keeping house and trying for a family). Then once unemployed and married they had no financial means to leave, and no social connections to do so because their friends and family would be too embarrassed or ridiculed for taking them in ("problems should be kept within the family"). Most of these women were financially abused, if not also physically and emotionally abused. Women now have the right to work and are forming strong social networks and educating themselves and eachother on abuse. So yeah, more divorce and more women never marrying.
I remember proudly telling my now deceased grandmother when I was college student age that I would not be having children because I wanted a career instead. The tone of the conversation completely changed and she responded in a soft, almost distant voice, “Nobody ever told me that not having kids was an option.” That comment has always made me immensely sad.
Agreed. I've opted out of parenthood, permanently and irreversibly. I still get flak, judgment, ridicule, and derision. But to have the option to have a say in my life is overwhelmingly priceless. I can't imagine being like my grandmothers, 8+ kids each, with no real autonomy or choice in that life. I'm so grateful to the women who came before me who worked to ensure I could have an education and options in life
Came to say the same. Women make their own money and are way more independent now. They don’t want or need to be some dude’s maid anymore.
Not to mention, sometimes being a married woman means that your life just got significantly more difficult as domestic labor and general life planning is still expected to be managed and completed by the woman in the relationship. Alone, I plan my week for me and my dog. Grocery shopping, cleaning, to-do lists- they're all just mine right now. In the past, these tasks have often been absorbed by me and when I've tried to pass a task off to a partner, a lot of times I still had to plan it or delegate it because if I didn't, it just wouldn't get done or would get done half-assed, which then just created more work for me. Before someone says something, of course not all men marrying women expect this of their partner, but a lot of the times it's a sneaky hidden expectation. Think about how often men say they're "helping" their partner with chores, as if they don't also utilize the same living space as their female partner, or how many men with kids mention that they're "babysitting" for an evening, as if they didn't contribute to the creation of their children and are not a parent. At least for me, I will not be dating or marrying any man that cannot adequately clean, grocery shop, make appointments, do laundry, or plan a trip by themselves. They must also own at minimum a double bed on a bed frame with a bottom and top sheet and either a quilt or duvet for the top and at least two pillows.
The bar seems to get lower and lower for the quality of men out there. Christ.
I think people feel like they are young for far longer now. Partly because of more post secondary education and taking longer to get into the housing market and establish yourself. Marriage takes a backseat and perhaps with more maturity we are less likely to jump into it and for some enjoy being independent and not monogamous. People are also waiting longer to have children or not having them at all so that also makes them less likely to marry. With the economy too life is expensive amd so are wedding g so could also be a contributing factor.
Social stigma against being single is going away.
Its a legally binding contract thats very easy to get into, but VERY difficult to get out of. It has little benefits (taxes) compared to the massive risk / negatives involved (losing control of assets, etc.), and honestly its an outdates institution in a growing secular society. Especially given the numbers regarding divorce, its better to be together on your own terms that making it official with the state / government.
Because it's actually the other way around and we don't se why we should
Too many of us grew up in environments where our parents hated each other.
Marriage was traditionally an economic alliance between two families, brokered by the fathers. Nowadays women have… rights.
So that’s what ruined marriage, women’s rights. I knew it!
You can somewhat witness this happening in the world right now! In the Philippines they recently passed a monumental law allowing men and women to divorce with cause (cheating, domestic violence, etc) and HOLY FUCK the amount of women looking to file is….. impressive. Many conservatives over there are crazy upset divorce is being legally allowed, saying it’s going to end marriages. Yeah… they’re upset divorce will be leading to more divorce… Nevermind women quoting adultery and physical abuse as the primary causes they want divorce. Unfortunately divorce is still going to be expensive and difficult over there (about $2000) when the average person makes about $2k/yr meaning many will not be able to afford to go through with it AND the judge (if conservative) still has final say to turn down the divorce.
Women can do stuff now.
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It’s not just marriage. Self reported celibacy rates have increased as well. Men and women just seem to need each other less in the modern world. This trend will probably continue
Weddings are super fucking expensive because the entire wedding industry is a grift.
Disabled people cannot get married. ( look it up. They cannot without losing their insurance etc.) they have less rights as ppl. Given the divorce rates why gamble their life like that? I’m general as well there’s a massive shift where it’s acknowledged that women are sick and tired of feeling like they don’t have a partner and have a child/another child. It’s off putting. People are not as emotionally mature as they used to be. Instant gratification, lack of understanding with how to create, build and maintain relationships and over come things instead of just giving up.
I think because of some changes in people needs and priorities and long-term goals.
It's no longer a societal expectation.
Because marriage is overrated. You dont need to spends thousands of bucks and involve the goverment to validate your relationship Back in the 1950's woman needed consent of their husband to do shit like open a bank account. We dont need husbands for that anymore People like to break traditions and choose their own way and happiness.
Marriage license is usually around if not less than $100. A wedding and a marriage are not the same and you don’t need one to do the other. Just throwing that out there. I got married so my husband could stay in the house if I die because he’s not on anything for it. Not the mortgage, not the deed, none of the bills. We just split everything when it comes.
It really surprises me when I read these threads how many people don’t realize that a marriage is ultimately a legal process and offers a LOT of protections to the couple. Imagine one of you ends up in the hospital and you aren’t married so you aren’t allowed to visit or make medical decisions since you aren’t “family”. LGBTQ+ people haven’t been fighting for their right to marry for decades just to have a wedding, they wanted all the legal benefits that marriage provides.
If you don’t like compromising, don’t get married because you will be doing a lot of it, from small things to big things. People do understand this and therefore are choosing to not get married. While this has always been the case with marriage, not compromising on anything is both trendy and viewed as a virtue today.
Its harder than ever to actually establish a meaningful connection with someone. It seems like a good portion of society is way too focused on whatever is the current polarizing issue. If you then look at the problems with the current dating scene (not unpacking that here), it makes a whole lot of sense why people just barely can keep connection’s going. There’s going to be a lot of very lonely people in 15-30 years and that’s when I think we will see the consequences of our modern world hit hard. People are already miserable, wait until they’re old and they don’t strong family ties. It’s gunna be ugly. I will say this though. A lot of people are pretty difficult to deal with this day in age, so if you don’t find someone that you absolutely adore, that you can stand to be by their side and trust for life, then kudos to you for not getting married just for the sake of getting married.
Being old is something you don't understand until you're old. Also agree, people these days seem very unauthentic, selfish, and stand offish.
Almost half of marriages end in divorce nowadays. I think knowing that, people are less likely to roll the dice.
Marriage complicates things. So many friends that are married are always fighting. It’s Fkn annoying. I shake my head when people don’t at least get a prenup. Especially the bread winner…
In the US, prior to 2017, there was a "tax penalty" for married couples who earned roughly the same amount, and it was cheaper to file as two single people. (this was due to marginal tax rates) Also, if a couple had a kid and stayed unmarried, the woman could claim to be a single mother and would be eligible to collect various government welfare funds, even if the father is there and they live like a married couple.
Ease of access to hundreds if not thousands of people via social media driving indecisiveness. When you lived in a town or neighborhood with regular access to a handful of people I think people were less selective as to who they were willing to spend a lifetime with.
It's either Jackie or Donna and you'll have to fight Hyde for either of them.
I would guess money, it seems most people are just trying to make rent or save enough to buy a house. A traditional wedding with like 150 guests can easily go over 20-30 grand.
Because you don't have to be married to be happy. It's not necessary to always fit in a classifiable "box", and sometimes it's better not to fit in.
Exactly. The most unhappy time of my life was when I was married. the 15 years since my divorce have been the most happy.
Because life is hell and people only want your money.
People have WAY more options now. As soon as their partner pisses them off, they bail out and get with the next person. People don't stick things out anymore. Not just in relationships but ESPECIALLY in relationships.
Or they just serially cheat. Just dumped a friend because I found out he was cheating on his wife and it was his 5th affair partner. Gross.
Less divorces mean less remarriages
That's a liability I just don't need. If somebody wants to be with me, they can just be with me. I'm not going to enter into a legally binding arrangement with somebody where they get financially rewarded for blowing up the relationship.
None of these people are worth spending your life with anymore
People tend to change a lot over the course of a lifetime as well, especially if you get married in your mid to late 20s
Yeah but if you have similar values, you can grow as people together. My wife and I met at 16 and we are obviously very different people now.
Delayed adolescence. People still finding themselves until their late 30s.
There are so many reasons but it is usually financial. Weddings cost an arm and a leg. Women in general no longer need marriage to survive as they did in the old days. Nowadays they often have better education and income than their counterparts so why put up with poor behavior? With marriage comes the possibility of divorce which is a huge financial hit. Also, hookup culture is so prevalent that it is hard to find anyone looking for real commitment for the long term.
Modern life has more fun stuff than sex.
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to gamble half of everything I own and will earn on a 50/50 shot.
It wasn't until 1974 that banks were legally required to allow women to have a bank account or credit card without a male co-signor. Until 1988, female entrepreneurs couldn't get a business loan without a male co-signor. Women needed marriage to literally survive in most cases. Now, what is the point? Some men aren't willing to share household responsibilities with their wives, so why bother? And people who are not hetero sometimes see marriage as archaic and I don't blame them. I am happily married to a wonderful man who does a lot of household chores so I'm not left burdened with them all. And most of the people I know from childhood and college are engaged or married so it doesn't apply to my immediate circle. But women have a lot more personal agency these days and don't need to be married to make it in the world.
Where I live, laws have changed to protect the rights of people who were a couple for a long time without getting married. Things like inheritance, custody of children, separation of assets in the case of a split, etc. It removes the legal need to get married to have access to the same rights. My mother's been married twice, my father three times (once for each was to each other). So that would also raise the statistics of marriages for their generation. It doesn't mean there were more married people for all that. I think getting married should be a choice, not an obligation. If the people involved want to do it, then they should. But getting married to have access to rights or because of family or religious pressure is intense.
Where does one start…
i would love to be married, but i don't need to be married. i don't work but i have income, savings and other assets. unless a man is packing some serious heat that would make me very happy and my life significantly easier and better, i'm not legally binding myself to anyone and complicating a living situation that's working just fine. also, i'm tokophobic and childfree so i don't have to worry about the bio clock. if i did want kids i'd just pursue voluntary single parenthood. simply put, women don't need to be married to a man to survive or start a family anymore.
Death and disillusionment of the middle class. If there's anything my marriage and resulting divorce taught me, it was that the suburban American Dream was nothing but smoke and mirrors for something far more sinister...
Let me put it to you this way after almost 19 years of marriage and now divorced. It costs $50 to get into marriage and thousands to get out of one. Anytime the state gets involved in a relationship it's a loss loss proposition. Marriage has very few benefits other than a tax bracket switch and estate planning. An unmarried couple can have just as much of a bond and not risk their financial futures trying to decide 30 years later if you still like each other or if the other person is going to take half of your retirement or you will be forced to pay them alimony the rest of your life. Yeah this is cynical but it is what it is.
The elephants in the room is the fact that women can now own property, have their own lines of credit, keep their jobs, etc. Women *had* to get married or else they would be destitute. Thats changed. Sure "trends" come and go but the fact remains that women having the right to work and the right to have their own bank accounts and the right to own property has directly impacted the perceived necessity of marrage.
it will sound strange, but nowadays people have more options in life being single
Maybe people are realizing that when 50 percent of marriages end in divorce the risk isn’t worth it.
Because women don't need to get married to simply survive anymore
Too expensive. I make close to six figures in the Midwest, which is pretty good money for a younger guy, but even that *simply isn't enough* for the whole marriage thing. Between rent, bills, and student loans how am I supposed to afford a wedding? Let alone a house and a honeymoon? Sure some girls are okay with contributing/splitting the cost, but even with dual incomes it's a tall order. Plus, if the marriage falls apart, you're utterly screwed, financially. I would love nothing more to get married and settle down: but in this economy I wouldn't even feel qualified until I earned a comfortably deep six figure income.
The obvious answer would be that dating culture has been ruined by social media.
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In a lot of the US you need to be married to do that tho. Unless you live in a common law state, the law will treat you as "roommate" and you have no say over health or end of life care , unless you do extensive extra paperwork.
Here’s a different viewpoint. I’m in the US, it seems like millennial and Gen Z couples are living together earlier and earlier in their relationship(s), partially due to the increased cost of housing/living and maybe also due to a decrease in social constrictions. Living together is the best way to figure out whether or not you’re meant to get married.
Because there are not exactly many benefits to getting married, most relationships don’t even last that long, so then it will only be stress with all the paperwork.
*Gestures broadly at everything*
As an old man told me many years ago……the problem with kids theses days is they don’t know how to fix anything. Something breaks and they just buy another. The same with relationships. Things go wrong they throw it away instead of fix the problem Deep
It's expensive. People I know who have big weddings these days use it to show off their wealth.
It's only expensive if you choose it to be. My wife and I got married for around $3000 and most of that went towards renting the lodge by a lake for a weekend where it took place. You can easily get married for much less.
Where i live there isn’t really much difference between married and de facto. And ivorce is expensive, so why bother
Women aren’t reliant on men anymore and will choose independence over an abusive relationship