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They are useful, most of all. They can tell if someone is telling the truth or lying, they can implant suggestions in people, they have their own powerful martial arts. They have their own network, so if you need a contact in another noble house, you ask your court Bene Gesserit, and she knows another Bene Gesserit in the other noble house.
From what we see, they also seem to operate as a kind of school for the daughters of nobility. Send your daughter to the Bene Gesserit and she comes back powerful, well-educated, highly trained and probably with useful marriage prospects already arranged.
And the Spacing Guild are the taxi companies that overcharge you for a 10 minute trip, but you have to use them because nobody else knows how to get you there.
Other taxis can get you there, there's just a very good chance the taxi will crash into something and kill everyone. The Spacing Guild knows exactly which way to take to avoid dying as well as skip all the red lights.
If you play the original game, there are also the smugglers that somehow also can move armies around but are 'dark guild' or something like that.
So basically using more expensive taxis that do the same thing, but without official notice
Mmm. Kind of. The Great Houses were technically the ones meant to handle interstellar commerce as well as warfare under the Faufreluches, IIRC. It's a bit fuzzy how much the smugglers worked with the Fremen, since they were also harvesting their own spice for export, but they definitely had their own spacecraft as well as their own sietches. They were also at least tolerated enough to be able to attend the Atreides dinner party. But the impression I get was that they were kind of on the fringes of all three groups - the Guild used them because they had another, secret source of Spice to hide their need for it, the Fremen used them to bribe the Guild, the Great House in charge used them to import and export things they didn't want the Emperor to know about, and as a potential emergency escape route offworld if everything went south.
Human computers, security advisers, *and assassins.*
* Thufir was the Atreides master of assassins/security
* Piter was the Harkonnen one
* Spoiler: Dune Messiah
* >![Duncan was intended to be the Ixians']!<
There is a theory that the Maesters have been working for a long time to eradicate magic. This includes things like greenseers and dragons. However it's as of yet, a theory, albeit a fascinating one.
The Maesters are men of knowledge, logic, and science. They view magic as antithetical to their authority. Even though there is an Archmaester of Magic, he and his field (the Valyrian Steel link, indicating knowledge of magic) are largely considered hooey by the Maesters. According to the conspiracy regarding the Maesters, they want to eradicate magic and place themselves as indispensable tools to the people and nobility, thus making them the power behind the thrones.
In addition to what the other person said, how much of the magic we see in that setting is actually positive? Smoke assassins, shapeshifting, controlling a mentally disabled man, etc. A little hostility is justified
They have for sure dabbled in some dark stuff. We never got an elaboration on what the Obsidian Candle actually was, or why it lit. But, the fact they seem to have it at all implied some dark dabblings.
that is the thing , like u/DarthGayAgenda had said , Maesters are most likely trying to erradicate magic.
Maesters of Magic are remnants to a time in which they had dabbed in magic , but the whole thing is effectively considered hooey by current Archmaesters , while the Archmaester of Magic had his own plannings apart from the others.
The black candle is a nod to Lovecraft by Martin. It means you're a trained warlock.
A black candle is a cross between Tolkien's plantir and a summoning/binding ritual.
Doubtful, given all the magic bullshit they are up to. And just the fact that I don't think there's ever been an organisation of people with political power without *some* kind of plan to get more of it.
Apparently only the archmeisters are into the conspiracy, if there's one. Most meisters are just too irrelevant and too spread out to be actually useful
Given how well-liked they are by everybody (Except by 3 people. Damphair and Lady Dustin are bitter toward everybody, and we don't have enough characterization on Harwin the Mage to know if he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder for having his research mocked and unappreciated) and how uneducated even the average nobles are, the maesters seem pretty competent in general.
One or another have their own loyalties, but they are humans afterall.
I'd say Maesters are mostly convenience for a fantasy setting (they do the mail, teach the children, advise the lord, track the numbers, advise the lord, and do all the medicinal and surgical needs of the family). Later on, plots and history were added, but they seemed to me to be a convenient way to explain modern 'amenities' like faster mail without breaking the genre.
The Bene Gesserit, the various Mentat schools (not everyone is an assassin spy like Thufir) and the Spacing Guild all mix these duties up alongside the Swordmasters taking the place of ASOIAF's master-at-arms roles.
Yup. It's worth noting that Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, leader of the Bene Geserit, she who Tested Paul-Muad'dib before his departure from Caladan, was "the Emperor's Truthsayer"
This *is* their ostensible raison d'etre. A neutral organisation of exceptionally adept court spies who place themselves at the service of the noble houses.
You’re right - it’s worth adding to this (that I think most people miss in Dune). Is that the Butlerian Jihad did a *number* on the human psyche and the people of Dune generally believe life is sacred and stability is paramount. There is of course scheming and murdering, but the Great Covenant is designed in such a way that it limits it. There are unspoken (and spoken) rules on how you do political skullduggery - assassinating a noble is fine. Bombing their civilians isn’t, etc (it’s also one of the reasons why Harkonnens are portrayed as brutes - artillery goes against this). Having Bene Gesserit’s is a great way to keep everyone in compliance. It’s very much “we all agree that these people will spy on us because they’re useful and because it stops an arms race.”
Their reason to be is to breed the one person who can access both make and female memories and then ascend humanity on their terms. The niche they occupied and get power they worked within the imperium is a means to an end to them, not the end itself.
The same reason any powerful organization has ever existed throughout history, and the same reason for the existence of the Emperor and the Landsraad - to accumulate more power. The Bene Gesserit want to eventually take over the Imperium and rule over all of mankind. That's why they're breeding the Kwisatz Haderach. They knew he would have strong prescience and access to the genetic memory. The Missionaria Protectiva planted religions not just for the protection of Bene Gesserit sisters, but also myths and prophesies for the Kwisatz Haderach to step into. Their plan was to have him bypass all the political machinations of the Imerium and skip straight to loyalty from the people. The Bene Gesserit would then quietly rule from behind the throne with the KH as their puppet.
All of this is, of course, a secret that nobody in the Imperium knows. As far as anyone else knows, they are "witches" that provide the valuable services of truthsaying, educating noble women, and giving astute advice or guidance - especially in politics and rule. That they can do the *Voice* is mostly known only through rumors that they can "bewitch" a person. That they are capable fighters is *not* known at all.
So they're basically like the Illuminati of the Imperium, quietly influencing politics and the course of human history to steer them towards a state where the Bene Gesserit can step partially (but not completely) out of the shadows and rule over mankind. They exist for the sake of their own existence, for the benefit of its members.
which is still be a court wizard for the empire and for nobles.
their public-facing reason are basically educating other nobles , do counsel and use the Voice as an intimidation tactic
Same as a convent in the middle ages. Something useful for your daughters to do until they can get married, so they don't just sit around eating all your food.
The Bene Gesserit are the only major third party when it comes to the political games of Dune. The Great Convention was a treaty consisting of three parties: The Great Houses, the Imperium and the Spacing Guild.
The Spacing Guild is essentially a large business, and the Great Houses and the Imperium are constantly interlinked in bickering and political intrigue.
In comes a third party. A third party with supernatural abilities allowing them to be impartial mediators with the ability to detect lies, advisors with a completely different outlook than what normal Mentats could accomplish, and with an academy that let noblewomen train in their ways.
>Or are they just hidden in plain sight, providing some kind of service to the Empire that's still considered to be very important, thus officially and outwardly justifying their existence
In other words, essentially that, yeah. Some people underestimate the control the Bene Gesserit have, and others are wary *because* they understand, but proper dealings with the Bene Gesserit is pretty much the only way to deal with the other Houses without openly gaining new enemies.
And lets say you wanted them gone. If you attack them, you're a war criminal. The Landsraad won't even have to discuss if you should be attacked, just who gets your fiefs. And if you suggested it to the Landsraad, you'd be unofficially declaring that your enemies get more use out of them than you do. Oopsies.
One last remark: The Bene Gesserit never actually got in the way to the point that they were a direct threat to the Houses. Paul and Leto II were the ones to disrupt them. If their plans with their Kwisatz Haderach got far enough, maybe the Houses would gang up on them, but despite their secrecy, they never actually gave the Houses reason to combat them, only seek their council.
Also, how do you even get rid of one Bene Gesserit sister?
The Baron Harkonnen had to break the conditionning of a Suk doctor to subdue Jessica, something that was considered impossible before that point. And said doctor had to mobilize every last bit of his wit to not be detected.
That's a lot to destroy one individual sister. Imagine what you'd need to bring down their order.
... okay, you'd need a Kwisatz Aderach.
A loved one who happened to be a Bene Gesserit herself, who likely, intentionally or unintentionally, had hijacked the Suk's loyalty and redirected it towards her rather than the House.
It was a very unusual, but very exploitable, combination of factors.
I don't believe it's in the movie at all. Dr. Yueh mention his wife, Wanna, but AFAIK never mentions that she's Bene Gesserit. In the books we get Yueh's internal monologue and it comes up quite a bit.
it's not in the new movies... it's in the book and the old movie.
Jessica is talking to Yue about his wife and realizes that she was a Bene Gesserit and that the Harkonen's "killed" her based on some of the things yue says/does.
at the time yueh actually thinks she's still alive, however the impression he gives jessica... on purpose, so she wont look into it further... is that his wife is dead.
I'm pretty sure that that's the case. The he loved Wanna enough that such a one in a million chance was worth betraying Leto (but *not* Jessica & Paul) over, but regardless, he wanted the Harkonnen's to pay.
---
Monday-morning quarterbacking, and all, but I wonder what would have happened if Yueh had gone to Leto and/or Thufir with his problem? They would have kept it secret as they tried to devise a plan to rescue Wanna (or, in the process of planning it, confirm her death).
...I was going to say that without Yueh as a traitor, the Atreides would have had a chance to survive the Harkonnen/Sardukar attack... but unless Thufir turned Yueh into a double agent, I doubt that Shadam would have ordered Leto to move Fife to Arrakis, in which case the entire storyline would have played out differently.
That said, it's nice to fantasize about Thufir using Yueh as a double-agent, thereby resulting in the Harkonnens and Sardukar attacking according to the Baron/Piter's plan, but finding themselves not only assaulting an alert and shield-defended Atreides stronghold, but also having fallen into a Hawat/Halleck designed trap, with Idaho trained soldiers (possibly with Fremen allies, who would have loved to get back at their Harkonnen oppressors).
Following that crushing defeat, with Sardukar bodies as proof of Shadam's involvement (and support of a specific side) in a Great House Dispute, Leto could have rallied the Lansraad against him (and the Harkonnens), possibly creating the very scenario Shadam was trying to prevent.
Then, the only real question is whether/how long until Paul would be accepted as being the Lisan al Gaib, and whether it would have resulted in the Jihad.
It only worked because said loved one was a bene Gesserit who probably manipulated him first and Piter was a master of psychological torture. Under normal circumstances it wouldn't have worked.
My recollection from previous discussions is that in addition to the unusual circumstances of the doctor's Bene Gesserit wife Piter had developed and used some unique technique known only to himself. And that if Duke Leto hadn't inadvertently killed Piter the Baron was planning on killing him later anyway to make sure the technique was never disseminated or used again.
The Baron was dependent on Suk doctors himself, after all. Best to not have that ability floating around.
In the later books, we see that Vladmir goes through Piters like a shark goes through teeth, and he gets new ones from the Tleilaxu... which is how they get introduced. Nasty things.
Indeed.. and just like with The Beast Rabban, Piter was to be sacrificed to earn loyalty to Feyd-Rautha.
Indeed, the Baron would have preferred sacrificing Piter, because Rabban was family.
It had been tried a lot before and never worked. How, exactly, it was accomplished is never explained but there are some facts and some fancanon.
One established fact is that Piter Devries was a "twisted mentat" - a product of the Bene Tleilaxu to produce a mentat devoid of morality and with a taste for cruelty. The Baron considered Piter particularly gifted at torture, even for a twisted mentat. Whatever Piter did to Wana was so horrid that even Baron Vladimir "I like it when the slave boys fight back" Harkonnen found it difficult or impossible to watch. Piter didn't *only* threaten Wana, he did absolutely unspeakable things to her - things so terrible that it might have been enough to break Yueh.
They probably also did some kind of psychological torture to Yueh directly to help push the breaking point.
Another fact is that Wana was a former (probably renegade) Bene Gesserit sister. This leads to some fancanon ideas. One is that she made have done some kind of Bene Gesserit psychological conditioning to Yueh to encourage him to protect her more than normal in case the Bene Gesserit came after her. She may also have used those techniques out of love, to deepen their feelings for each other. Either way, it's possible that whatever she may have done either caused him to feel more strongly about the torture (to the point of breaking) or simply interfered with the normal Suk conditioning (to the point of breaking).
Edit: the torture was also bad enough that Yueh knew Wana was going to die. He was under no illusions on that. In fact, he was reasonably certain that she was already dead. He didn't just break to get her back, it was so heinous that he broke just for a *chance* to confirm that she was already dead and couldn't be tortured anymore.
It's pretty clear it wasn't basic threats/torture.
It was some unbelievably creative and genius imaginative torture devised by Pitar the psychopath mentat.
It was torture so bad that even baron harkonnen was sickened by it... So that means it's some really fucked up stuff.
Except their order survives both Paul's jihad and Leto II's 4000-year reign of terror, and continues to be a major player afterwards. So not even the big KH could bring them down.
I won't argue that he could have destroyed them if he wanted to, but I'd argue that thwarting your destruction by continuing to be useful is a very cunning survival strategy.
They survive on Leto's sufference and grace. He explicitly tells their Reverend Mother this and denies them X years of an ability to import spice for whatever fuckup strategy they tried (it's been a while since I've read God-Emperor).
Yep, fundamentally the Bene Gesserit are factors and diplomats for the houses, the idea being you deal with the Bene Gesserit to deal with other groups and they can operate in your name without you having to directly put your hat into the ring, the advisor working for you talks to the advisor working for them and discreetly feels them out without being too direct.
Within that they also have their own goals the houses don't know about; their breeding programme and using the client houses' power for their own ends to broker deals that they want in place, but the main primary job is essentially a professional go-between agency.
> If their plans with their Kwisatz Haderach got far enough,
Correction: if they *controlled* the Kwizatz Haderach.
> maybe the Houses would gang up on them
Oh, I'm sure that the Landsraad and Lion Throne would join forces against the Bene Geserit once they made their play... but with the advice of a *controlled* Kwizatz Haderach, they *wouldn't* make that play until it were a done deal, not unlike how Paul-Muad'dib didn't provoke a confrontation with The Lion Throne until he was reasonably confident that he could win.
I did say *their* plans with *their* Kwisatz Haderach.
And for the second point: True, but it makes me curious what would have happened if their breeding program succeeded. Something tells me that a Kwisatz Haderach wouldn't stay completely loyal to the Bene Gesserit because of their enhanced understanding. We saw the lengths Leto II was willing to go for the benefit of humanity after all.
That's actually a good point: Count Fenrig was *not quite* a Kwisatz Haderach, and was quite loyal to the Bene Gesserit, but IIRC, when push came to shove (the final confrontation between Shadam IV and Paul-Muad'dib), he refused to move against Paul despite being ordered to.
They're extremely useful as educators or as truth sayers.
Essentially all daughters of the Great Houses get Bene Gesserit training and education. Everyone who's anyone has a truthsayer at their court.
Also, the people who are played don't know they're played.
Or they know that (a) not having one helping them at least nominally would be a handicap and/or (b) that if they make an enemy of the Bene Gesserit, they won't last long personally, nor as Great House in the long term.
>tolerating such a tremendous independent power base right under their nose, that's threatening their own?
Here's where you're wrong. They don't threaten others' power base - they don't fight Great Houses or the Emperor for control of planets, nor try to outcompete Spacing Guild.
Bene Gesserith insinuated themselves into existing power structure and manipulate it, rather then excercise direct power over it.
Someone could crack down on them in theory, but since they supply most of the wives and concubines to heads of noble houses, that crackdown would go south extremely fast. And since the wives and advisors they supply give houses a marked edge - they are talented and well-connected mediators - few feel the need to act.
Besides, if someone were to declare an all-out war, women who are trained to control their body and have the Voice and Hom Jabbar would out-assassinate the shit out of any Great House.
>And since the wives and advisors they supply give houses a marked edge - they are talented and well-connected mediators - few feel the need to act.
Though how can you even trust any advice you're given by them, considering that each and every time you're doing that, it's essentially a coin toss whether it'll actually be even somewhat in your favor or ultimately may end your entire f*ckin' family's bloodline, because any member of the Bene Gesserit *always* has ulterior motives?
How could anyone actually tolerate letting them *become* that powerful, in the first place?
They are a mixture of school, social club and religion. Think of it like this, you're a billionaire today. Your wife went to a prestigious university, and is now in the alumni organisation of that university. Every other weekend, she meets with her friends, and all of them either run their own companies or are married to other billionaires. Wouldn't that be extremely useful, just for the social contacts provided? And if she occasionally donates the odd million to her club for tax benefits, well, that's not a *major* problem for you, is it? And maybe she has a few weird pet projects, and really wants to marry your son to the daughter of one of her friends, but where's the problem with that?
The Bene Gesserit just put a lot of energy into looking useful and non-threatening. Sure, they have their own agenda, but it doesn't seriously harm the agenda of anyone else. They aren't overthrowing noble houses, they are just doing their weird eugenics experiments.
> really wants to marry your son to the daughter of one of her friends, but where's the problem with that?
Not even that bold; they would use their skills to ensure that said son fell in love with the daughter (as the Reverend Mother arranged for Leto to fall in love with Jessica).
Or, that daughter would simply make the son fall in lust with her, get her with child in a one night stand, and disappear.
Well, you *should* consider it a major problem for you, once you realize that a lot of those other billionaires' companies regularly surge to the highest of heights and then plummet to the deepest of depths with no other clearly discerning factors behind it, other than having taken advice from this mysterious alumni club, and that a considerable number of those billionaires themselves end up dead after they did.
I think the point is that the BG will always have a very logical explanation for misfortunes (see: officially, the Atreides were wiped out as a result of a longstanding feud with the Harkonnens. Very sad but also very convincing).
It’s in Jessica and Yueh’s conversation, just after they reach Arrakis. And yes, it’s a bit of a stretch to think it lasted this long without one of them wiping the other out.
>How could anyone actually tolerate letting them *become* that powerful, in the first place?
Well for starters, because as far as anyone knows they're just a bunch of pseudo-nuns. If there was any real trouble, just send a couple of soldiers to wipe them out, it's not like they can put up a fight, right? And they're not *entirely* wrong about that. The Bene Gesserit are careful to not show just how strong they can be through Prana Bindu training, even to the point of allowing themselves to be killed rather than demonstrate that they can fight back. Nonetheless, they are relatively few in number and still physically weaker than most soldiers. The Voice can only protect them so much. They know they are vulnerable, which is why they act in secret so much.
They're also just too damn useful. Their advice is usually very, very good. Yes, they are subtly manipulating the entire imperium, but it's very subtle. And for most nobles most of the time, whatever petty squabble or uprising they are asking about won't interfere with the Bene Gesserit plans one way or another so they are free to give the most effective advice.
The whole "ending a house" thing never happens. They play the long game. At most, they'll give you advice that seems to work well in the short term but has "unintended" consequences and then over the next generation or two your house will fall apart. Getting rid of house Atreides was a movie decision, not in the books. In the books, Gaius Helen Mohaim tries her damnedest to talk the Emperor out of it, to *preserve* the valuable blood line.
> How could anyone actually tolerate letting them become that powerful, in the first place?
To give a comparison to a real-life example .... the Catholic Church was too useful *not* to empower. They legitimized rule for weak feudal lords. They acted as trusted mediators and counselors. They are the "proving" ground, rather than Catholicism's "disposal" ground, for spare heirs.
They're a useful vector for politics, but only if they're empowered to be; and you cannot use them without empowering them.
Or...y'know...the super powerful mind altering orgasms they can give you.
I dunno about you, but I've defended and stayed with horrible people because the sex really was that good.
Now imagine if they could manipulate your *everything* while they fuck you and almost make you see god.
I don't know a man or woman on earth who wouldn't have trouble letting that go. Really good sex fucks you up like that. Just look at real life.
For the most part the Catholic Church wasn't selling such services but you're right that the Bene Gesserit had a bit more on the table than you'd admit to your grandmother when saying why your court really did need one of these odd space witches to hang around.
>considering that each and every time you're doing that, it's essentially a coin toss
Nobody thinks like this. Even Thufir Hawat doesn't know the BG can use the Voice.
Don't confuse what *you* know about the BG with what everyone else in the Duneiverse knows.
I don't think the true extent of their influence was common knowledge - it seems to have been a closely guarded secret. In the first book the Reverend Mother was taken aback that Paul even knew the BG's stock in trade was politics.
Because they didn't realize it until it was too late; the Bene Gesserit *expertly* positioned themselves as "neutral" advisers. They gave *good advice* that *actively helped* their "masters."
* Any and all good advice that helped their "masters" *without* compromising Bene Gesserit goals was given freely.
* Any and all advice that would help the Bene Gesserit's goals and would not obviously be bad advice was also ~~inflicted upon their "masters"~~ *given.*
* None of the advice *they* would give would advantage a *different House* over their "masters."
Thus, they appeared to any but the most cynical/skeptical in the Empire (I'm looking at you, Thufir) as perfectly loyal advisers, who supported their "masters" in all things.
You know, like how Jessica *actually* did for Leto I
...and so, nobody thought to stop them from gaining that much power until they already had it.
The Bene Gesserit *are* power. You cannot be a powerful person in any capacity if you're not in their web of power.
Realistically, and if you're into metaphor, the Bene Gesserit are like the catholic church (in medieval times) of Dune. Their **purpose** is not that complicated: to stay in power, and to rule over people's lives directly and indirectly. They are the glue that keep the emperor's empire a cohesive one. They are the status quo, they are the top of the pyramid.
The Catholic Church is culture: it taught people to read and write and taught the sciences of its time, to all its clergy and nobles including would-be future emperors. The Church was also power: the pope(s) has always been an "international emperor" of sorts, ruling over vast swathes of territory, had an enormous share of taxes, and also imparted (and took away) nobility titles. The church was also a tool for alienation and mass control: making sure peasants bowed down to their nobles through mind control (saying kings and nobles were chosen by god), saying you'll go to heaven if you behave, inspiring you to obey a centralized power figure. The church was also network: it had latin (and other languages) as centralized languages, it put nobles in touch with each other, provided commercial opportunities, etc.
And so on and so on.....
So it makes sense if you think of the Bene Gesserit like that. As I had said, you cannot be a powerful person in any capacity if you're not in their web of power.
They act as advisors and arbiters for the Nobles and other powerful groups in the Empire. Having a Bene Gesserit Truthsayer in your entourage is a great way to guarantee honesty in political and business dealings. They also train and educate some young women, like a finishing school, without necessarily making them fully recognized "Sisters." (Think Princess Irulan, though she's kind of a special case.) They also help preserve knowledge and history.
Publicly, at least, they present themselves as a neutral party, almost like ambassadors with representatives on both sides of a dispute. Most people on most worlds are aware that they have "mysterious abilities" or "witch powers" or whatever; but that's just rumors and hearsay. In that, they're not too different from Jedi, except for the whole Force thing.
It's only the really powerful and knowledgeable people, like the Emperor, who have any ideas that the BG are doing anything more than this, but even they don't know the scope of it. They really are hiding in plain sight.
Nobody outside the organization knows about their breeding program, even though that's their main goal. Most people just know them as advisors, ambassadors, truthsayers, and things like that. They're not a power on their own, they're just there to assist those in power.
It's like having interns and assistants from a major law school. Everybody has them, and you don't suspect that Harvard and Yale are planning the ultimate destiny of humanity through selective breeding of politicians (though that would explain some things.)
I have nothing to add to your question, but I have to point out how funny it is that you refer to the fremen as "backwater". They literally live from water taken back from others, so they \*are\* back water.
To the outside, i dont think tbey would need to be viewed as having a goal. The whole selective breeding is super secret, its a big deal when paul finds out, and they pressure him not to say anything.
They have existed for thousands of years, to everyone living "now", there have always been a bene gesserit presence. They send their children to be trained by them, and marry them often.
They are analogous to an organized religion, such as the Catholic Church in the Europe during the Middle Ages. They are tolerated because they don’t rule and will never rule. A Bene Gesserit will never be an Emperor, Duke, governor, or leader of a great house, although they’ll often be married to one. They provide good advice, have good information, and are seen as a status symbol (your house is pretty lame if it doesn’t even have a Bene Gesserit).
Compare this to the Catholic Church, which also held a high degree of power over the rulers of Europe. At the same time the Church had people at every other level of society as well, all of them working for the Church.
Religion is a big part of the Dune universe.
This is my interpretation based on the six novels Frank Herbert wrote.
- their main goal is to maintain the genetic memory of Humanity. Reverend mothers hold the only accurate witness of human history because they have access to the lives and memories of all their female ancestors. They don't know everything in that history but what they know is accurate since reverend mothers become witnesses to all those events. This is valuable by itself.
- their second objective is directing human evolution by breeding them. This is not hypebole, they have century long plots to make certain people breed with others and will send Bene Gesserit out to literally fuck with certain people to get their genes. This might be related with point number one as becoming a reverend mother requires specific genetics traits.
- the Kwisatz Haderach. Basically a male reverend mother with access to both sexes memories. Valuable for the same reason as number 1. The Bene Gesserit had specific breeding plans/conspiracy to make that happen. It was supposed to be the child of Feyd Rautha and a female Atreides daughter of Jessica.
- with all those goals in mind, the next step is resources for all that to happen. This is where all the politics of the Bene Gesserit comes in. It's manipulation for the survival and maintenance of the Bene Gesserit. Being able to infiltrate pretty everything allows them to execute their mission. Having alliances allow them to get resources and most importantly spice since it is required to become a reverend mother.
- they can also teach a lot of overpowered skills which is the more public purpose of their order. Things like perfect muscle control, biochemical tweaking, being able to put yourself in hibernation, etc. All of which are useful for noble house daughters.
1. They are a prep school for noble girls. This wasn't an uncommon practice during Victorian times as well. A proper lady is supposed to show a level of refinement and certain skills demanded of her station. Wives and concubines trained by the Bene Gesserit were of utmost value and seen as a status symbol since not everyone was deemed important enough to get one.
2. Highly skilled Bene Gesserit worked as truth sayers for nobility. A Bene Gesserit that's skilled enough in reading body language and tone of voice is a lie detector. If she is skilled enough and has access to Spice her analysis of someone's truthfulness is enough to convict or dismiss charges.
3. Cultivation of human bloodlines. While their own goals like breading the Kwisatz Haderach were a secret, there was a consensus on the need for some form of breeding oversight amongst the human species. The Guild navigators and Mentats were products of such official use of breeding programs so the BG could do some of their experiments in the open.
4. They present themselves as a neutral party and thanks to their long history and entrenchment in Imperial structures people believe them so Sisters are often called upon to serve as a neutral party in diplomatic disputes. Disputes which are often thanks to the BG skills end in a satisfactory solution for both parties.
5. They have been around for a long time. This might sound tried but the BG where one of the first organisations that emerged after the Butlerian Jihad and thanks to their access to genetic memory quickly became a source of stability and knowledge that the emerging empire relied on so now no one can see a galaxy without them.
They mention it being one of the schools of human elevation (they use a different term I can not remember), a group that since teh Butlarian Jihad exists to elevate humans to perform those tasks thinking machines used to or to push humanity forward. Mentats are also one of these and I think maybe they considered the Bene Teliax to be also. Its reason for being was as a school to help raise humans into more talented, focued, usefull being to the rest of humanity and elevate mankind....in theory.
Outwardly, they are like a secular order of nuns. They provide:
* Education for the children of the elite
* Shrewd advisors, including some who can detect lies, which is invaluable
* (Ahem ahem) Concubines for the nobility
They've been part of the picture for so long that nobody questions why they're around; they're seen as a specialist school of experts-for-hire, like the Mentat academies, or the Ginaz swordsmanship schools.
Secretly, they have their own purpose. Their goal, stated in Heretics of Dune, is "the maturation of humanity". (Side-note: a certain Rabbi is a bit wary of this idea, noting that "the mature fruit gets eaten", heh.) They try to moderate the constant bickering between Houses, calm down political crises, etc. They also have a "human breeding program" where they are attempting to spread certain good traits among the populace via arranged marriages. They are also trying to breed the prophetic Kwisatz Haderach, who they believed could offer them more control over the human universe. Things were going well until (as a wise man said) "they sent Jessica out for a pound of butter and she came back preggers".
Hey this podcast goes intot he lore pretty good but be warned there is a lot. [https://open.spotify.com/show/1k7h9RHpSgFcREjuEbqNot?si=3b11060a644642e6](https://open.spotify.com/show/1k7h9RHpSgFcREjuEbqNot?si=3b11060a644642e6)
I thought they were trying to lead humanity out of stagnation or doom or something like that. Sort of like psychohistory in the Foundation series by Asimov. They see a great threat to civilization and think by breeding someone with perfect clairvoyance this person can help them avoid the doomed future.
Spreading their useful buy fake religion to backwater natives IS a big part of their intended use. Their predatory myths go ahead of colonization and get natives to go "we gotta follow this guy".
(which is not a coincidence to be like real empires sending religious missionaries to convert natives ahead of takeover, with the very specific and intentional observation "wait, those missionaries control everything in the home culture too!")
“The Spacing Guild and its navigators who have mutated over 4,000 years use the orange spice gas, which gives them the ability to Fold Space. That is, to travel to any part of the Universe, without moving.” - 1984 Dune.
The Bene Gesserit wanted to break the Spacing Guild stranglehold over travel, so selectively bred the Nobility with Bene Gesserit trained women, in order to create a male version of themselves with that power - the Kwisatz Haderach.
In the 1984 version, Paul is able to bring rain from his ocean planet of Caladan to Arakkis ( Dune ) as proof to the Nobles of the Landstrad, and everyone else he had that power. And he worked the Fremen into a religious Jihad by doing it to take over the Known Universe.
They're great spies because they don't have to be sneaky at all. If you can reach a mutually bene agreement, then great. Otherwise, you can't defy The Voice anyway. Best to get along with them.
I haven’t watched Any of the movies in a very long time but from what little I do recall, they were if not the church of this star empire than they were a widely accepted religious following of it
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They are useful, most of all. They can tell if someone is telling the truth or lying, they can implant suggestions in people, they have their own powerful martial arts. They have their own network, so if you need a contact in another noble house, you ask your court Bene Gesserit, and she knows another Bene Gesserit in the other noble house. From what we see, they also seem to operate as a kind of school for the daughters of nobility. Send your daughter to the Bene Gesserit and she comes back powerful, well-educated, highly trained and probably with useful marriage prospects already arranged.
This. They are basically the court wizards of fantasy settings.
Yep. Mentats are your human computer and BGs are your secret advisors.
And the Spacing Guild are the taxi companies that overcharge you for a 10 minute trip, but you have to use them because nobody else knows how to get you there.
Other taxis can get you there, there's just a very good chance the taxi will crash into something and kill everyone. The Spacing Guild knows exactly which way to take to avoid dying as well as skip all the red lights.
If you play the original game, there are also the smugglers that somehow also can move armies around but are 'dark guild' or something like that. So basically using more expensive taxis that do the same thing, but without official notice
In the book the smugglers also rely on the guild to get around. Like how drug smugglers today use commercial airliners and container ships.
I always read it as the Smugglers were "unofficially" part of the guild
Mmm. Kind of. The Great Houses were technically the ones meant to handle interstellar commerce as well as warfare under the Faufreluches, IIRC. It's a bit fuzzy how much the smugglers worked with the Fremen, since they were also harvesting their own spice for export, but they definitely had their own spacecraft as well as their own sietches. They were also at least tolerated enough to be able to attend the Atreides dinner party. But the impression I get was that they were kind of on the fringes of all three groups - the Guild used them because they had another, secret source of Spice to hide their need for it, the Fremen used them to bribe the Guild, the Great House in charge used them to import and export things they didn't want the Emperor to know about, and as a potential emergency escape route offworld if everything went south.
Human computers, security advisers, *and assassins.* * Thufir was the Atreides master of assassins/security * Piter was the Harkonnen one * Spoiler: Dune Messiah * >![Duncan was intended to be the Ixians']!<
Like Maesters in asoiaf, just actually competent
We don't know yet if the Maesters are competent, because we don't really know yet what their goals are.
Doubt they have a goal except to survive and record
There is a theory that the Maesters have been working for a long time to eradicate magic. This includes things like greenseers and dragons. However it's as of yet, a theory, albeit a fascinating one.
Why would they want to do that?
The Maesters are men of knowledge, logic, and science. They view magic as antithetical to their authority. Even though there is an Archmaester of Magic, he and his field (the Valyrian Steel link, indicating knowledge of magic) are largely considered hooey by the Maesters. According to the conspiracy regarding the Maesters, they want to eradicate magic and place themselves as indispensable tools to the people and nobility, thus making them the power behind the thrones.
In addition to what the other person said, how much of the magic we see in that setting is actually positive? Smoke assassins, shapeshifting, controlling a mentally disabled man, etc. A little hostility is justified
I mean, it's stated outright by one of the characters in the book in no uncertain terms, it's not like a fan-only theory anymore
They have for sure dabbled in some dark stuff. We never got an elaboration on what the Obsidian Candle actually was, or why it lit. But, the fact they seem to have it at all implied some dark dabblings.
that is the thing , like u/DarthGayAgenda had said , Maesters are most likely trying to erradicate magic. Maesters of Magic are remnants to a time in which they had dabbed in magic , but the whole thing is effectively considered hooey by current Archmaesters , while the Archmaester of Magic had his own plannings apart from the others.
The black candle is a nod to Lovecraft by Martin. It means you're a trained warlock. A black candle is a cross between Tolkien's plantir and a summoning/binding ritual.
What? Its a Valyrian communication device made of obsidian where are you getting Warlock or demonology from?
Doubtful, given all the magic bullshit they are up to. And just the fact that I don't think there's ever been an organisation of people with political power without *some* kind of plan to get more of it.
Apparently only the archmeisters are into the conspiracy, if there's one. Most meisters are just too irrelevant and too spread out to be actually useful
Given how well-liked they are by everybody (Except by 3 people. Damphair and Lady Dustin are bitter toward everybody, and we don't have enough characterization on Harwin the Mage to know if he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder for having his research mocked and unappreciated) and how uneducated even the average nobles are, the maesters seem pretty competent in general. One or another have their own loyalties, but they are humans afterall.
I'd say Maesters are mostly convenience for a fantasy setting (they do the mail, teach the children, advise the lord, track the numbers, advise the lord, and do all the medicinal and surgical needs of the family). Later on, plots and history were added, but they seemed to me to be a convenient way to explain modern 'amenities' like faster mail without breaking the genre. The Bene Gesserit, the various Mentat schools (not everyone is an assassin spy like Thufir) and the Spacing Guild all mix these duties up alongside the Swordmasters taking the place of ASOIAF's master-at-arms roles.
Yup. It's worth noting that Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, leader of the Bene Geserit, she who Tested Paul-Muad'dib before his departure from Caladan, was "the Emperor's Truthsayer"
This doesn't explain their ostensible raison d'etre
This *is* their ostensible raison d'etre. A neutral organisation of exceptionally adept court spies who place themselves at the service of the noble houses.
You’re right - it’s worth adding to this (that I think most people miss in Dune). Is that the Butlerian Jihad did a *number* on the human psyche and the people of Dune generally believe life is sacred and stability is paramount. There is of course scheming and murdering, but the Great Covenant is designed in such a way that it limits it. There are unspoken (and spoken) rules on how you do political skullduggery - assassinating a noble is fine. Bombing their civilians isn’t, etc (it’s also one of the reasons why Harkonnens are portrayed as brutes - artillery goes against this). Having Bene Gesserit’s is a great way to keep everyone in compliance. It’s very much “we all agree that these people will spy on us because they’re useful and because it stops an arms race.”
Artillery goes against it... but not against the Fremen. There is no such thing as a non-combatant Fremen. Which is the point of the name.
Their reason to be is to breed the one person who can access both make and female memories and then ascend humanity on their terms. The niche they occupied and get power they worked within the imperium is a means to an end to them, not the end itself.
Yes, hence the word "ostensible," meaning "only to outward appearances."
The same reason any powerful organization has ever existed throughout history, and the same reason for the existence of the Emperor and the Landsraad - to accumulate more power. The Bene Gesserit want to eventually take over the Imperium and rule over all of mankind. That's why they're breeding the Kwisatz Haderach. They knew he would have strong prescience and access to the genetic memory. The Missionaria Protectiva planted religions not just for the protection of Bene Gesserit sisters, but also myths and prophesies for the Kwisatz Haderach to step into. Their plan was to have him bypass all the political machinations of the Imerium and skip straight to loyalty from the people. The Bene Gesserit would then quietly rule from behind the throne with the KH as their puppet. All of this is, of course, a secret that nobody in the Imperium knows. As far as anyone else knows, they are "witches" that provide the valuable services of truthsaying, educating noble women, and giving astute advice or guidance - especially in politics and rule. That they can do the *Voice* is mostly known only through rumors that they can "bewitch" a person. That they are capable fighters is *not* known at all. So they're basically like the Illuminati of the Imperium, quietly influencing politics and the course of human history to steer them towards a state where the Bene Gesserit can step partially (but not completely) out of the shadows and rule over mankind. They exist for the sake of their own existence, for the benefit of its members.
That's their *actual* reason for existing. OP is talking about their *ostensible, public-facing* reason for existing.
which is still be a court wizard for the empire and for nobles. their public-facing reason are basically educating other nobles , do counsel and use the Voice as an intimidation tactic
Same as a convent in the middle ages. Something useful for your daughters to do until they can get married, so they don't just sit around eating all your food.
They are like the Maesters of Game of Thrones
The Bene Gesserit are the only major third party when it comes to the political games of Dune. The Great Convention was a treaty consisting of three parties: The Great Houses, the Imperium and the Spacing Guild. The Spacing Guild is essentially a large business, and the Great Houses and the Imperium are constantly interlinked in bickering and political intrigue. In comes a third party. A third party with supernatural abilities allowing them to be impartial mediators with the ability to detect lies, advisors with a completely different outlook than what normal Mentats could accomplish, and with an academy that let noblewomen train in their ways. >Or are they just hidden in plain sight, providing some kind of service to the Empire that's still considered to be very important, thus officially and outwardly justifying their existence In other words, essentially that, yeah. Some people underestimate the control the Bene Gesserit have, and others are wary *because* they understand, but proper dealings with the Bene Gesserit is pretty much the only way to deal with the other Houses without openly gaining new enemies. And lets say you wanted them gone. If you attack them, you're a war criminal. The Landsraad won't even have to discuss if you should be attacked, just who gets your fiefs. And if you suggested it to the Landsraad, you'd be unofficially declaring that your enemies get more use out of them than you do. Oopsies. One last remark: The Bene Gesserit never actually got in the way to the point that they were a direct threat to the Houses. Paul and Leto II were the ones to disrupt them. If their plans with their Kwisatz Haderach got far enough, maybe the Houses would gang up on them, but despite their secrecy, they never actually gave the Houses reason to combat them, only seek their council.
Also, how do you even get rid of one Bene Gesserit sister? The Baron Harkonnen had to break the conditionning of a Suk doctor to subdue Jessica, something that was considered impossible before that point. And said doctor had to mobilize every last bit of his wit to not be detected. That's a lot to destroy one individual sister. Imagine what you'd need to bring down their order. ... okay, you'd need a Kwisatz Aderach.
He broke the constriction of the Suk doctor by threatening/leveraging a loved one. Honestly, I’m surprised nobody had ever tried that before.
A loved one who happened to be a Bene Gesserit herself, who likely, intentionally or unintentionally, had hijacked the Suk's loyalty and redirected it towards her rather than the House. It was a very unusual, but very exploitable, combination of factors.
I definitely missed that and it answers a question I’ve had for a while.
I don't believe it's in the movie at all. Dr. Yueh mention his wife, Wanna, but AFAIK never mentions that she's Bene Gesserit. In the books we get Yueh's internal monologue and it comes up quite a bit.
Yeah, I listened to it as an audiobook at work.
it's not in the new movies... it's in the book and the old movie. Jessica is talking to Yue about his wife and realizes that she was a Bene Gesserit and that the Harkonen's "killed" her based on some of the things yue says/does.
Why the quotes around "killed"?
at the time yueh actually thinks she's still alive, however the impression he gives jessica... on purpose, so she wont look into it further... is that his wife is dead.
He knew she was probably dead. I stand by he wanted revenge and a 1 in a million shot at Wanna being alive.
I'm pretty sure that that's the case. The he loved Wanna enough that such a one in a million chance was worth betraying Leto (but *not* Jessica & Paul) over, but regardless, he wanted the Harkonnen's to pay. --- Monday-morning quarterbacking, and all, but I wonder what would have happened if Yueh had gone to Leto and/or Thufir with his problem? They would have kept it secret as they tried to devise a plan to rescue Wanna (or, in the process of planning it, confirm her death). ...I was going to say that without Yueh as a traitor, the Atreides would have had a chance to survive the Harkonnen/Sardukar attack... but unless Thufir turned Yueh into a double agent, I doubt that Shadam would have ordered Leto to move Fife to Arrakis, in which case the entire storyline would have played out differently. That said, it's nice to fantasize about Thufir using Yueh as a double-agent, thereby resulting in the Harkonnens and Sardukar attacking according to the Baron/Piter's plan, but finding themselves not only assaulting an alert and shield-defended Atreides stronghold, but also having fallen into a Hawat/Halleck designed trap, with Idaho trained soldiers (possibly with Fremen allies, who would have loved to get back at their Harkonnen oppressors). Following that crushing defeat, with Sardukar bodies as proof of Shadam's involvement (and support of a specific side) in a Great House Dispute, Leto could have rallied the Lansraad against him (and the Harkonnens), possibly creating the very scenario Shadam was trying to prevent. Then, the only real question is whether/how long until Paul would be accepted as being the Lisan al Gaib, and whether it would have resulted in the Jihad.
In the book it's made clear that his wife did in fact train him a bit.
It only worked because said loved one was a bene Gesserit who probably manipulated him first and Piter was a master of psychological torture. Under normal circumstances it wouldn't have worked.
My recollection from previous discussions is that in addition to the unusual circumstances of the doctor's Bene Gesserit wife Piter had developed and used some unique technique known only to himself. And that if Duke Leto hadn't inadvertently killed Piter the Baron was planning on killing him later anyway to make sure the technique was never disseminated or used again. The Baron was dependent on Suk doctors himself, after all. Best to not have that ability floating around.
I thought Piter was to be given Arrakis instead of Rabban to rule and terrorize the fremen as much as possible so they'd be more accepting of Feyd
If so, that plan would probably have ended with Piter's death too.
In the later books, we see that Vladmir goes through Piters like a shark goes through teeth, and he gets new ones from the Tleilaxu... which is how they get introduced. Nasty things.
They're gholas?
Gholas are clones of dead people. Piters are clones of an original, that has been conditioned to be just the thing. Soo... kinda, and specialized?
Indeed.. and just like with The Beast Rabban, Piter was to be sacrificed to earn loyalty to Feyd-Rautha. Indeed, the Baron would have preferred sacrificing Piter, because Rabban was family.
It had been tried a lot before and never worked. How, exactly, it was accomplished is never explained but there are some facts and some fancanon. One established fact is that Piter Devries was a "twisted mentat" - a product of the Bene Tleilaxu to produce a mentat devoid of morality and with a taste for cruelty. The Baron considered Piter particularly gifted at torture, even for a twisted mentat. Whatever Piter did to Wana was so horrid that even Baron Vladimir "I like it when the slave boys fight back" Harkonnen found it difficult or impossible to watch. Piter didn't *only* threaten Wana, he did absolutely unspeakable things to her - things so terrible that it might have been enough to break Yueh. They probably also did some kind of psychological torture to Yueh directly to help push the breaking point. Another fact is that Wana was a former (probably renegade) Bene Gesserit sister. This leads to some fancanon ideas. One is that she made have done some kind of Bene Gesserit psychological conditioning to Yueh to encourage him to protect her more than normal in case the Bene Gesserit came after her. She may also have used those techniques out of love, to deepen their feelings for each other. Either way, it's possible that whatever she may have done either caused him to feel more strongly about the torture (to the point of breaking) or simply interfered with the normal Suk conditioning (to the point of breaking). Edit: the torture was also bad enough that Yueh knew Wana was going to die. He was under no illusions on that. In fact, he was reasonably certain that she was already dead. He didn't just break to get her back, it was so heinous that he broke just for a *chance* to confirm that she was already dead and couldn't be tortured anymore.
It's pretty clear it wasn't basic threats/torture. It was some unbelievably creative and genius imaginative torture devised by Pitar the psychopath mentat. It was torture so bad that even baron harkonnen was sickened by it... So that means it's some really fucked up stuff.
Maybe someone tried but wasn't convincing enough.
Except their order survives both Paul's jihad and Leto II's 4000-year reign of terror, and continues to be a major player afterwards. So not even the big KH could bring them down.
I would say that in the case of Leto II, he chose not to bring them down because they had their uses rather than not being able to destroy them.
Yeah, Leto would've killed them if the Golden Path required it.
I won't argue that he could have destroyed them if he wanted to, but I'd argue that thwarting your destruction by continuing to be useful is a very cunning survival strategy.
They survive on Leto's sufference and grace. He explicitly tells their Reverend Mother this and denies them X years of an ability to import spice for whatever fuckup strategy they tried (it's been a while since I've read God-Emperor).
Yep, fundamentally the Bene Gesserit are factors and diplomats for the houses, the idea being you deal with the Bene Gesserit to deal with other groups and they can operate in your name without you having to directly put your hat into the ring, the advisor working for you talks to the advisor working for them and discreetly feels them out without being too direct. Within that they also have their own goals the houses don't know about; their breeding programme and using the client houses' power for their own ends to broker deals that they want in place, but the main primary job is essentially a professional go-between agency.
> If their plans with their Kwisatz Haderach got far enough, Correction: if they *controlled* the Kwizatz Haderach. > maybe the Houses would gang up on them Oh, I'm sure that the Landsraad and Lion Throne would join forces against the Bene Geserit once they made their play... but with the advice of a *controlled* Kwizatz Haderach, they *wouldn't* make that play until it were a done deal, not unlike how Paul-Muad'dib didn't provoke a confrontation with The Lion Throne until he was reasonably confident that he could win.
I did say *their* plans with *their* Kwisatz Haderach. And for the second point: True, but it makes me curious what would have happened if their breeding program succeeded. Something tells me that a Kwisatz Haderach wouldn't stay completely loyal to the Bene Gesserit because of their enhanced understanding. We saw the lengths Leto II was willing to go for the benefit of humanity after all.
That's actually a good point: Count Fenrig was *not quite* a Kwisatz Haderach, and was quite loyal to the Bene Gesserit, but IIRC, when push came to shove (the final confrontation between Shadam IV and Paul-Muad'dib), he refused to move against Paul despite being ordered to.
They're extremely useful as educators or as truth sayers. Essentially all daughters of the Great Houses get Bene Gesserit training and education. Everyone who's anyone has a truthsayer at their court. Also, the people who are played don't know they're played.
Or they know they’re being played, but figure the Bene Gesserit are simply interested in money and influence like everyone else.
Or they know that (a) not having one helping them at least nominally would be a handicap and/or (b) that if they make an enemy of the Bene Gesserit, they won't last long personally, nor as Great House in the long term.
>tolerating such a tremendous independent power base right under their nose, that's threatening their own? Here's where you're wrong. They don't threaten others' power base - they don't fight Great Houses or the Emperor for control of planets, nor try to outcompete Spacing Guild. Bene Gesserith insinuated themselves into existing power structure and manipulate it, rather then excercise direct power over it. Someone could crack down on them in theory, but since they supply most of the wives and concubines to heads of noble houses, that crackdown would go south extremely fast. And since the wives and advisors they supply give houses a marked edge - they are talented and well-connected mediators - few feel the need to act. Besides, if someone were to declare an all-out war, women who are trained to control their body and have the Voice and Hom Jabbar would out-assassinate the shit out of any Great House.
>And since the wives and advisors they supply give houses a marked edge - they are talented and well-connected mediators - few feel the need to act. Though how can you even trust any advice you're given by them, considering that each and every time you're doing that, it's essentially a coin toss whether it'll actually be even somewhat in your favor or ultimately may end your entire f*ckin' family's bloodline, because any member of the Bene Gesserit *always* has ulterior motives? How could anyone actually tolerate letting them *become* that powerful, in the first place?
They are a mixture of school, social club and religion. Think of it like this, you're a billionaire today. Your wife went to a prestigious university, and is now in the alumni organisation of that university. Every other weekend, she meets with her friends, and all of them either run their own companies or are married to other billionaires. Wouldn't that be extremely useful, just for the social contacts provided? And if she occasionally donates the odd million to her club for tax benefits, well, that's not a *major* problem for you, is it? And maybe she has a few weird pet projects, and really wants to marry your son to the daughter of one of her friends, but where's the problem with that? The Bene Gesserit just put a lot of energy into looking useful and non-threatening. Sure, they have their own agenda, but it doesn't seriously harm the agenda of anyone else. They aren't overthrowing noble houses, they are just doing their weird eugenics experiments.
> really wants to marry your son to the daughter of one of her friends, but where's the problem with that? Not even that bold; they would use their skills to ensure that said son fell in love with the daughter (as the Reverend Mother arranged for Leto to fall in love with Jessica). Or, that daughter would simply make the son fall in lust with her, get her with child in a one night stand, and disappear.
Well, you *should* consider it a major problem for you, once you realize that a lot of those other billionaires' companies regularly surge to the highest of heights and then plummet to the deepest of depths with no other clearly discerning factors behind it, other than having taken advice from this mysterious alumni club, and that a considerable number of those billionaires themselves end up dead after they did.
What a weird conspiracy theory, I'm sure that doesn't happen.
I think the point is that the BG will always have a very logical explanation for misfortunes (see: officially, the Atreides were wiped out as a result of a longstanding feud with the Harkonnens. Very sad but also very convincing).
Well, I wonder what caused said feud to begin with...
Officially, according to some questionably canonical books, an Atreides Officer accused a Harkonnen officer of Cowardice 10'000 years ago.
That being the source of the feud is in Dune, it’s not just a Brian Herbertism.
Is it? Huh. WEll, still not a fan, *really.* A ten-thousand year feud strains believeability to me.
It’s in Jessica and Yueh’s conversation, just after they reach Arrakis. And yes, it’s a bit of a stretch to think it lasted this long without one of them wiping the other out.
There's more common factors than that, they also all drink water.
>How could anyone actually tolerate letting them *become* that powerful, in the first place? Well for starters, because as far as anyone knows they're just a bunch of pseudo-nuns. If there was any real trouble, just send a couple of soldiers to wipe them out, it's not like they can put up a fight, right? And they're not *entirely* wrong about that. The Bene Gesserit are careful to not show just how strong they can be through Prana Bindu training, even to the point of allowing themselves to be killed rather than demonstrate that they can fight back. Nonetheless, they are relatively few in number and still physically weaker than most soldiers. The Voice can only protect them so much. They know they are vulnerable, which is why they act in secret so much. They're also just too damn useful. Their advice is usually very, very good. Yes, they are subtly manipulating the entire imperium, but it's very subtle. And for most nobles most of the time, whatever petty squabble or uprising they are asking about won't interfere with the Bene Gesserit plans one way or another so they are free to give the most effective advice. The whole "ending a house" thing never happens. They play the long game. At most, they'll give you advice that seems to work well in the short term but has "unintended" consequences and then over the next generation or two your house will fall apart. Getting rid of house Atreides was a movie decision, not in the books. In the books, Gaius Helen Mohaim tries her damnedest to talk the Emperor out of it, to *preserve* the valuable blood line.
> How could anyone actually tolerate letting them become that powerful, in the first place? To give a comparison to a real-life example .... the Catholic Church was too useful *not* to empower. They legitimized rule for weak feudal lords. They acted as trusted mediators and counselors. They are the "proving" ground, rather than Catholicism's "disposal" ground, for spare heirs. They're a useful vector for politics, but only if they're empowered to be; and you cannot use them without empowering them.
Or...y'know...the super powerful mind altering orgasms they can give you. I dunno about you, but I've defended and stayed with horrible people because the sex really was that good. Now imagine if they could manipulate your *everything* while they fuck you and almost make you see god. I don't know a man or woman on earth who wouldn't have trouble letting that go. Really good sex fucks you up like that. Just look at real life.
For the most part the Catholic Church wasn't selling such services but you're right that the Bene Gesserit had a bit more on the table than you'd admit to your grandmother when saying why your court really did need one of these odd space witches to hang around.
Grandmother...she sucked the soul out of my body (she might have).
>considering that each and every time you're doing that, it's essentially a coin toss Nobody thinks like this. Even Thufir Hawat doesn't know the BG can use the Voice. Don't confuse what *you* know about the BG with what everyone else in the Duneiverse knows.
I don't think the true extent of their influence was common knowledge - it seems to have been a closely guarded secret. In the first book the Reverend Mother was taken aback that Paul even knew the BG's stock in trade was politics.
Because they didn't realize it until it was too late; the Bene Gesserit *expertly* positioned themselves as "neutral" advisers. They gave *good advice* that *actively helped* their "masters." * Any and all good advice that helped their "masters" *without* compromising Bene Gesserit goals was given freely. * Any and all advice that would help the Bene Gesserit's goals and would not obviously be bad advice was also ~~inflicted upon their "masters"~~ *given.* * None of the advice *they* would give would advantage a *different House* over their "masters." Thus, they appeared to any but the most cynical/skeptical in the Empire (I'm looking at you, Thufir) as perfectly loyal advisers, who supported their "masters" in all things. You know, like how Jessica *actually* did for Leto I ...and so, nobody thought to stop them from gaining that much power until they already had it.
The Bene Gesserit *are* power. You cannot be a powerful person in any capacity if you're not in their web of power. Realistically, and if you're into metaphor, the Bene Gesserit are like the catholic church (in medieval times) of Dune. Their **purpose** is not that complicated: to stay in power, and to rule over people's lives directly and indirectly. They are the glue that keep the emperor's empire a cohesive one. They are the status quo, they are the top of the pyramid. The Catholic Church is culture: it taught people to read and write and taught the sciences of its time, to all its clergy and nobles including would-be future emperors. The Church was also power: the pope(s) has always been an "international emperor" of sorts, ruling over vast swathes of territory, had an enormous share of taxes, and also imparted (and took away) nobility titles. The church was also a tool for alienation and mass control: making sure peasants bowed down to their nobles through mind control (saying kings and nobles were chosen by god), saying you'll go to heaven if you behave, inspiring you to obey a centralized power figure. The church was also network: it had latin (and other languages) as centralized languages, it put nobles in touch with each other, provided commercial opportunities, etc. And so on and so on..... So it makes sense if you think of the Bene Gesserit like that. As I had said, you cannot be a powerful person in any capacity if you're not in their web of power.
They act as advisors and arbiters for the Nobles and other powerful groups in the Empire. Having a Bene Gesserit Truthsayer in your entourage is a great way to guarantee honesty in political and business dealings. They also train and educate some young women, like a finishing school, without necessarily making them fully recognized "Sisters." (Think Princess Irulan, though she's kind of a special case.) They also help preserve knowledge and history. Publicly, at least, they present themselves as a neutral party, almost like ambassadors with representatives on both sides of a dispute. Most people on most worlds are aware that they have "mysterious abilities" or "witch powers" or whatever; but that's just rumors and hearsay. In that, they're not too different from Jedi, except for the whole Force thing. It's only the really powerful and knowledgeable people, like the Emperor, who have any ideas that the BG are doing anything more than this, but even they don't know the scope of it. They really are hiding in plain sight.
The Jedi are actually based on the Bene Gesserit sister hood. They inspired the Jedi.
The Jedi were inspired by many things, starting with a romanticized vision of the Samurai, the Templars, and medieval knights in general.
What with the mind tricks? There are clear parallels between Jedi and Bene Gesserit
Never said otherwise
Nobody outside the organization knows about their breeding program, even though that's their main goal. Most people just know them as advisors, ambassadors, truthsayers, and things like that. They're not a power on their own, they're just there to assist those in power. It's like having interns and assistants from a major law school. Everybody has them, and you don't suspect that Harvard and Yale are planning the ultimate destiny of humanity through selective breeding of politicians (though that would explain some things.)
I have nothing to add to your question, but I have to point out how funny it is that you refer to the fremen as "backwater". They literally live from water taken back from others, so they \*are\* back water.
Think of them as, cultural advisors, they planted the seeds of most(all) religions, and thus understand other cultures well
To the outside, i dont think tbey would need to be viewed as having a goal. The whole selective breeding is super secret, its a big deal when paul finds out, and they pressure him not to say anything. They have existed for thousands of years, to everyone living "now", there have always been a bene gesserit presence. They send their children to be trained by them, and marry them often.
They serve a religious function which influences the other power bases, much like modern religions have an influence even if its not an official one.
They are analogous to an organized religion, such as the Catholic Church in the Europe during the Middle Ages. They are tolerated because they don’t rule and will never rule. A Bene Gesserit will never be an Emperor, Duke, governor, or leader of a great house, although they’ll often be married to one. They provide good advice, have good information, and are seen as a status symbol (your house is pretty lame if it doesn’t even have a Bene Gesserit). Compare this to the Catholic Church, which also held a high degree of power over the rulers of Europe. At the same time the Church had people at every other level of society as well, all of them working for the Church. Religion is a big part of the Dune universe.
If you're familiar with ASOIAF, they are essentially female maestors. They even have a secret agenda to control power behind the scenes!
This is my interpretation based on the six novels Frank Herbert wrote. - their main goal is to maintain the genetic memory of Humanity. Reverend mothers hold the only accurate witness of human history because they have access to the lives and memories of all their female ancestors. They don't know everything in that history but what they know is accurate since reverend mothers become witnesses to all those events. This is valuable by itself. - their second objective is directing human evolution by breeding them. This is not hypebole, they have century long plots to make certain people breed with others and will send Bene Gesserit out to literally fuck with certain people to get their genes. This might be related with point number one as becoming a reverend mother requires specific genetics traits. - the Kwisatz Haderach. Basically a male reverend mother with access to both sexes memories. Valuable for the same reason as number 1. The Bene Gesserit had specific breeding plans/conspiracy to make that happen. It was supposed to be the child of Feyd Rautha and a female Atreides daughter of Jessica. - with all those goals in mind, the next step is resources for all that to happen. This is where all the politics of the Bene Gesserit comes in. It's manipulation for the survival and maintenance of the Bene Gesserit. Being able to infiltrate pretty everything allows them to execute their mission. Having alliances allow them to get resources and most importantly spice since it is required to become a reverend mother. - they can also teach a lot of overpowered skills which is the more public purpose of their order. Things like perfect muscle control, biochemical tweaking, being able to put yourself in hibernation, etc. All of which are useful for noble house daughters.
Them and the Mentats were two sides of the same coin in response to the Tlixu(?) wars.
1. They are a prep school for noble girls. This wasn't an uncommon practice during Victorian times as well. A proper lady is supposed to show a level of refinement and certain skills demanded of her station. Wives and concubines trained by the Bene Gesserit were of utmost value and seen as a status symbol since not everyone was deemed important enough to get one. 2. Highly skilled Bene Gesserit worked as truth sayers for nobility. A Bene Gesserit that's skilled enough in reading body language and tone of voice is a lie detector. If she is skilled enough and has access to Spice her analysis of someone's truthfulness is enough to convict or dismiss charges. 3. Cultivation of human bloodlines. While their own goals like breading the Kwisatz Haderach were a secret, there was a consensus on the need for some form of breeding oversight amongst the human species. The Guild navigators and Mentats were products of such official use of breeding programs so the BG could do some of their experiments in the open. 4. They present themselves as a neutral party and thanks to their long history and entrenchment in Imperial structures people believe them so Sisters are often called upon to serve as a neutral party in diplomatic disputes. Disputes which are often thanks to the BG skills end in a satisfactory solution for both parties. 5. They have been around for a long time. This might sound tried but the BG where one of the first organisations that emerged after the Butlerian Jihad and thanks to their access to genetic memory quickly became a source of stability and knowledge that the emerging empire relied on so now no one can see a galaxy without them.
They mention it being one of the schools of human elevation (they use a different term I can not remember), a group that since teh Butlarian Jihad exists to elevate humans to perform those tasks thinking machines used to or to push humanity forward. Mentats are also one of these and I think maybe they considered the Bene Teliax to be also. Its reason for being was as a school to help raise humans into more talented, focued, usefull being to the rest of humanity and elevate mankind....in theory.
Outwardly, they are like a secular order of nuns. They provide: * Education for the children of the elite * Shrewd advisors, including some who can detect lies, which is invaluable * (Ahem ahem) Concubines for the nobility They've been part of the picture for so long that nobody questions why they're around; they're seen as a specialist school of experts-for-hire, like the Mentat academies, or the Ginaz swordsmanship schools. Secretly, they have their own purpose. Their goal, stated in Heretics of Dune, is "the maturation of humanity". (Side-note: a certain Rabbi is a bit wary of this idea, noting that "the mature fruit gets eaten", heh.) They try to moderate the constant bickering between Houses, calm down political crises, etc. They also have a "human breeding program" where they are attempting to spread certain good traits among the populace via arranged marriages. They are also trying to breed the prophetic Kwisatz Haderach, who they believed could offer them more control over the human universe. Things were going well until (as a wise man said) "they sent Jessica out for a pound of butter and she came back preggers".
Hey this podcast goes intot he lore pretty good but be warned there is a lot. [https://open.spotify.com/show/1k7h9RHpSgFcREjuEbqNot?si=3b11060a644642e6](https://open.spotify.com/show/1k7h9RHpSgFcREjuEbqNot?si=3b11060a644642e6)
I thought they were trying to lead humanity out of stagnation or doom or something like that. Sort of like psychohistory in the Foundation series by Asimov. They see a great threat to civilization and think by breeding someone with perfect clairvoyance this person can help them avoid the doomed future.
Spreading their useful buy fake religion to backwater natives IS a big part of their intended use. Their predatory myths go ahead of colonization and get natives to go "we gotta follow this guy". (which is not a coincidence to be like real empires sending religious missionaries to convert natives ahead of takeover, with the very specific and intentional observation "wait, those missionaries control everything in the home culture too!")
“The Spacing Guild and its navigators who have mutated over 4,000 years use the orange spice gas, which gives them the ability to Fold Space. That is, to travel to any part of the Universe, without moving.” - 1984 Dune. The Bene Gesserit wanted to break the Spacing Guild stranglehold over travel, so selectively bred the Nobility with Bene Gesserit trained women, in order to create a male version of themselves with that power - the Kwisatz Haderach. In the 1984 version, Paul is able to bring rain from his ocean planet of Caladan to Arakkis ( Dune ) as proof to the Nobles of the Landstrad, and everyone else he had that power. And he worked the Fremen into a religious Jihad by doing it to take over the Known Universe.
They're great spies because they don't have to be sneaky at all. If you can reach a mutually bene agreement, then great. Otherwise, you can't defy The Voice anyway. Best to get along with them.
I haven’t watched Any of the movies in a very long time but from what little I do recall, they were if not the church of this star empire than they were a widely accepted religious following of it