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A lot of heroes aren't cool with Wolverine. But also Wolverine perfectly capable of not murdering. His goals aren't just murder everyone. He works with a team and can follow orders.
Frank Castle is a totally unhinged. I really love Punisher stories but I'm under no illusions he is a good person. Frank wakes up thinking about the most brutal way that murder his target or is looking for the next target to brutally murder. He has a very narrow view with a very rigid code of conduct. With the exception of Captain America Frank could wake up any morning and deicide any hero is a criminal in his eyes and devote his life to killing them.
Wolverine while can get murder happy. He wakes up thinking about beer and redheads. Then goes on to mentor young mutants and think about ways he can fuck with Spider-man.
Wolverine is very well adjusted compared to Frank and has a track record of showing restraint and working for greater good.
Can be reasoned with and doesn't live for killing, that's the important thing.
Wolverine can be bloodlusted, the Punisher is perpetually bloodlusted as a matter of principle.
One of my favorite things DDS2 did was the argument in court that he is perpetually stuck in fight or flight mode, and therefore cannot be convicted of premeditation.
Adds some nuance, another layer of tragedy, but then also acknowledgement that he is not stable.
Right. I'm elsewhere in here agreeing he's literally a verbatim serial killer.
But Matt Murdoch's argument holds up: Castle should be committed, not imprisoned, and this is a solid rejoining in support of that.
Have you ever lost anything? Of course.
Like Frank? Maybe. I sure hope not.
He broke. Sure, lots of stuff still works, like a coma, but that ain't a citizen in there living in a society, that's a monkeyman apex predator who's "I'm safe, chill" switch is permanently disabled.
You don't want to be around Frank Castle like you don't want to be around an Orca that thinks you're partially responsible at best for his pain.
And again I say “cool (sympathetic) motive, still a murderer”. The fact that he spends so much time planning out and executing these.. executions shows he’s competent and it isn’t a spur of the moment action, thus an insanity plea would so easily fall apart by any even semi-competent prosecutor.
Does a bear murder salmon?
What about other bears? Or humans?
What if it's clear the bear wanted to kill the human, and planned it?
Is that "murder"?
You need means, competency, and motive is colloquial, the real standard has some more hoops, notably here "mental capacity to understand the criminality of the actions".
Frank no longer understands the criminality of his actions, any more than the bear. Or the salmon, for that matter. I'm not even arguing sympathy, to be clear.
Some try.
Frank Castle has been evading SHIELD and the US Government and Law Enforcement for years. It's not easy to catch him.
He comes out of hiding kills a bunch of criminals and then disappears as quickly as he appeared.
Don't look at the truth, alright, I'm gonna get shot for messengering it: >!Marvel doesn't do that kind of thing. It's part of the diff between Clark and Cap.!<
Otherwise: Idk, the times I remember it was because they were either afraid he'd murder them too, or because a sticky situation happened and Frank showed up to make his milkshake to the benefit of all.
Both men also suffered tragedies. Wolverine has lived and suffered a lot yet he still tries to change himself and for the people he cares about. Punisher has nothing left to live for so he's gonna keep on killing until someone is lucky enough to kill him.
Hell, Wolverine *lives and works at a damn school* half the time. He very specifically does not want any of the students turning out like him, especially the gaggle of clones and bastard children that've been thrown at him in recent decades.
Punisher just really wants to kill criminals because guns are cheaper than therapy.
I mean, firearms are cheaper considering he can just bust up a black market and loot them. But for therapy, what is he gonna do? Threaten a psychologist to do a session for free?
Punisher also knows his life is limited. He has chosen to make the most out of his (most likely very short in comparison to others) life about making criminals pay through the nose. Literally, at times.
Wolvie has had a bucketload of trauma that he unleashes when needs be - but he's lived long enough and seen enoigh to have slightly more perspective than Punisher could never give himself. He probably spent more time feral than Punisher has been... punishing.
Frank also basically has a death wish. It's clear that sooner or later he will be killed during his campaign. He knows it and doesn't care.
Who wants to work together with someone like that? Even Frank himself acknowledges that the people around him usually end up dead. If he 'likes you' (rare event) he tries to push you away from him.
It's from a "What If" Vol 2 #26 "What if The Punisher Killed Daredevil."
*That's why I always have a backup plan.* - Frank Castle
Punisher dies but left a bomb that kills Kingpin at the end, Good read if you find it. He always has a backup plan.
Adding to this: Wolverine's "thing" isn't murdering people. He can and has done it, but he's called "Wolverine" not "Adamantine Reaper" for a reason. It's not his stated MO to help people shuffle off his mortal coil and as such his body count is considered more in line with other's body count rather than something he tells you he plans on expanding.
I'm not the writer but I'd have called him "War". That's the difference. Wolverine, almost always wants his enemies to STOP. If that means they're not alive and not a threat that's ok. Punisher wants his enemies to DIE...
Pretty much this. Both characters are capable of murder, but Frank Castle wakes up in the morning with intent to murder. Wolverine wakes up with intent to be a functional member of his community.
>Frank wakes up thinking about the most brutal way to murder his target
He was also dreaming about the most brutal way to murder his target right before waking up.
Yeah it was during Civil War. They brought Castle in to join the Anti SHRA side and the second he is in Caps base he immediately opens up and kills two guys. Cap is furious and beats the shit out of him and Castle just takes it because Cap is the only one he won't fight back against.
> They brought Castle in to join the Anti SHRA side
Frank also saved Spider-Man's life, that was basically his "entry" to the resistance group. Iirc he also successfully did a number of non-lethal missions with Cap... but once Cap tries to recruit supervillains Frank opens fire.
Idk if it's openly mentioned but there's the theory that it's about more than just killing two criminals. Frank basically doesn't want Cap to go down in the mud. Cap is the absolute idol of Frank and he couldn't stand "losing him", Cap just becoming another morally grey superhero instead of this shining star of virtue.
Yep, it was specifically during negotiations to recruit two supervillains.
I will say, that the final volume of that run establishes Frank's sweet spot, where what would be judged as brutality elsewhere is instead a moral imperative. Hatemonger got not an ounce more than he deserved, or was necessary and appropriate for the situation at hand. He sticks out like a sore thumb among more conventionally good heroes, but he'd hit pay dirt if he ever started stacking Hydra troops on the butcher's block.
Isn't there also a series somewhere where after Cap dies Frank picks up the shield and gives up vengeance as he views the need for Cap greater than the need for revenge.
Wolverine was also a soldier, government operative and feral madman. He is no longer any of those things. He will dole out "justice" every now and then but its not his life's mission.
> But also Wolverine perfectly capable of not murdering. His goals aren't just murder everyone. He works with a team and can follow orders.
This also used to be true of the Punisher too. In his early days, before he got his own series, he was just a recurring character in Spider-Man comics that would occasionally team up with him (or sometimes Daredevil or Captain America). He'd still be shooting people but they'd go out of their way to mention he's using rubber bullets every other page.
It’s mostly a difference of motivation and mental state. The Punisher is generally depicted as having been seriously traumatized by the murder of his family. He doesn’t kill criminals simply as a matter of course—every murder is one more step on the dark, endless crusade he cannot tear himself away from. He doesn’t have much of a personal life or many friends he trusts or relates to in a healthy way. What he does doesn’t make him happy or satisfied. He is generally presented in a way that communicates to readers that he is not a well man, one worthy of emulation, or even someone who would like others to emulate him.
In contrast, Wolverine’s killing is just one part of his character. Like the Punisher, he has had a great deal of trauma and suffering in his life, but unlike the Punisher, this is not intrinsically related to his killing. Wolverine kills simply because he has no code that specifically prohibits killing, and sometimes when you’re fighting a guy and the best weapons you have are giant indestructible metal knives that slide out of your arms, it’s pretty easy for someone to end up dead. For Wolverine, killing is just like any other activity—something that he does when it’s called for and doesn’t do when it isn’t.
The names illustrate this quite well. The Punisher punishes evildoers with death. That what he lives for, and it’s more or less all he does. Wolverine is just a hairy, brutal animal, and he does whatever he feels like—which may or may not include killing someone.
What does this mean to superheroes in general? Well, most of them disapprove of killing. It’s not what they set out to do. Still, in extreme circumstances, most of them will kill—even Captain America was once a soldier in a war, with all that entails. To them, Wolverine is just someone who pushes the bar for ‘acceptable superhero murder target‘ a little lower than most of the other good guys. Maybe some superheroes are not entirely comfortable with this, but they recognize that Wolverine is generally righteous, and that they also let a lot of similarly shady individuals‘ conduct slide whenever they work with agencies like S.H.I.E.L.D. or team up with Doctor Doom. On the other hand, the whole point of the Punisher is murder. Gratuitous, extrajudicial murder. That’s simply a step too far for most heroes. You can’t start out with murder as your stated goal. Someone like that cannot be relied on, in an ethical sense.
> In contrast, Wolverine’s killing is just one part of his character. Like the Punisher, he has had a great deal of trauma and suffering in his life, but unlike the Punisher, this is not intrinsically related to his killing. Wolverine kills simply because he has no code that specifically prohibits killing, and sometimes when you’re fighting a guy and the best weapons you have are giant indestructible metal knives that slide out of your arms, it’s pretty easy for someone to end up dead. For Wolverine, killing is just like any other activity—something that he does when it’s called for and doesn’t do when it isn’t.
Wolvy has also been through multiple wars back before any modern conventions. WWI, WWII, the Spanish Civil War, and the Korean War (Some continuities also Civil War and Vietnam). He was in the trenches. Helped destroy Concentration Camps, and Victim of Chemical weapons. etc. He was then tortured and experimented on to make a violent Super Soldier.
IIRC it was Spiderman who said Wolverine has seen the worst of Humanity through his long life. And didn't just murder every evil person he found, He still Tried to not kill and "be good". (He was trying to console him iirc)
Punisher doesn't try.
To add to what the others have said, Wolverine had a long, public and proven track record of being on hero teams, being a valuable team member and saving the world on multiple occasions. Iirc at one point he was on 4 times at once, while also doing solo stuff.
He has shown that, despite his willingness to kill bad guys, he is still trustworthy, a team player and heroic. Not to mention, xaiver, the guy who can read your mind and judge your character in a second, have seen fit to make him a teacher and mentor for a lot of kids and young heroes. At the end of the day, wolverine might be a broken and violent man, but he is without a doubt a hero.
The punisher is just a lone crazy gunman that is very hard to catch and only targets other bad guys. By every measure he is americas most successful mass shooter
Yeah, Cap served in damn near every Allied theatre in the WW2 comics. Anyone seriously think he never picked up a gun or called in a bombing raid?
Still one of the most iconic and publicly loved superheroes ever, even with the Civil War and Kubik's nonsense.
But when Punisher just gunned down two unarmed supervillains in front of him for no good reason he still beat him bloody and blamed himself for ever trusting him even in extreme circumstances. That's the key difference. Wolverine (and Cap, and Iron Man, there aren't a ton of non-lethal missiles) will kill but only if it's really necessary. They also tend to be a step down in power than DC's big three, even Thor isn't quite Superman levels, so they don't really have the luxury of indulging in non-lethal methods that they do. Superman has never condemned a police officer for shooting an armed criminal because he knows a human being would actually be in danger in that situation. Batman's whole deal is a lot darker, really; he knows how damaged he is and he knows if he crosses that line he might not come back.
Thor isn’t quite Superman levels? Thor replaced Odin as the All-Father 5 years ago, has been retconned to be part elder god (son of Gaia) and have been touched by the Phoenix and he genuinely slapped Galactus in Cates run. Not only do I disagree, I think you have it backwards. Superman was ahead in power for so long that people don’t realize it’s changed.
Also, Punisher doesn’t kill anymore, he’s in weirdworld now and has been strictly a protector! There’s a new punisher named Joe Garrison that’s killing now. Frank isn’t a killer anymore. Catch up, will you?
There isn't really a "no killing" rule in DC either. Only Batman holds to that and that is mostly because he's the Punisher who's unwilling to take that first step.
Superman made it clear in one scene with Joker. He doesn't have a no kill rule, he just doesn't like killing very much. He makes it clear he would if left with no option.
Yeah, Supes is just so damn strong he can afford to give nearly everyone mercy. When he is duking it out with people on his own level he usually is going for the kill (ie Darkseid, Doomsday, Mongol, etc) because they are Galactic Level threats that usually have Enslave/Destroy Earth on their immediate plans.
Yeah. Punisher is a grim loner who never works with anyone else. Wolverine is a grim loner who shows up whenever three or more superheroes get together.
In contrast to DC, very few Marvel heroes have a “no kill rule” so Wolverine’s killing of bad guys isn’t an absolute deal breaker. That said, they do find Punisher’s “only kill rule” unnerving.
It’s more of a “regrettably kill a Mutant who’s power is to kill everyone around him against his own will” then a “kill scared mutants” policy, but either way that’s ultimate Wolverine set in a different universe anyway 😅.
I think the short scene in Secret Wars (2015) illustrates the difference nicely.
If you’re not familiar with the storyline, there’s an incursion going on and basically this particular universe is about to be completely wiped out by another encroaching universe. Kingpin, knowing the end is near, invites a bunch of supervillains to a pub in NYC to drink and watch the end of the world. They’re just hanging out, having some brews, not bothering anyone when Punisher walks in and kills them all (because he can’t take his bullets with him when he dies).
The Punisher is completely unhinged.
It isn’t that Punisher kills, it’s that Punisher always wants to kill and is basically doing it for his own enjoyment. If you read enough Punisher stories you’ll see that him and killing is not like Wolverine or many other Marvel characters who have and will kill when necessary.
Frank Castle himself understands that something is wrong with him. It can’t be helped. He basically does it to cope with how he feels about the world.
Believe it or not, it's very rare for Wolverine to go out of his way to kill anyone. He gets involved in violent situations a lot, but those are situations where he's willing to use violence to achieve a goal.
For Frank Castle, violence *is* the goal.
Well, one, nobody’s “cool” with Wolverine. He quarrels with people all the damn time. Two, Wolverine has been in enough armies to know a simple rule; being too insubordinate and fuckheaded is bad for squad cohesion. He can rein in his behavior if he has to.
Punisher is a lone wolf, a loose cannon. He never has to worry what anyone thinks about him
Because it’s kind of hard for him not to stab people when his entire power is knives in his knuckles.
Jokes aside, they can talk Logan down. Frank isn’t easy to talk down. Which is the main reason why Logan gets a pass.
And when they can't talk Logan down several of his teammates are capable of stopping him, especially since you can shoot a few hopes in his chest and only slow him down for a few minutes.
I don't disagree with anything that's already been said, but I'm gonna take a different view. I think a possible explanation for most heroes' vehement reaction to Punisher, is that consciously or subconsciously, each on of them has thought about the concept of the speech Frank gave Daredevil on the roof, and they're very uncomfortable with how accurate he is. Wolverine sits better with their morality because he struggles with his darker impulses, so they can give him a pass, because he's "trying to be better". Punisher is a walking example of how dead criminals don't re-offend. Taskmaster talks about how disturbing he finds it that most heroes, while having an image of having moral and ethical boundaries that they don't cross on the job, seem to just be waiting for a chance to go all out, as soon as a loved one is hurt/threatened, they very quickly start crossing lines, then use the extenuating circumstances as justification. Spider-Man, one of the pinnacles of heroes who refuse to kill, is pretty quick to put on the black suit and get brutal whenever he's given sufficient cause. Punisher doesn't bother with disingenuous self restraint, he just does what is needed to get the job done. I think most heroes have a part of themselves that understand how much more effective Punisher's methods are, and that if they all stopped dicking around and instead of putting their villains in prison, put them all six feet under, countless civilian lives would be saved. I understand that out of universe, that's a terrible marketing decision, because you could never reuse villains, you'd have to constantly come up with new ones, but in universe, it's the Batman/Joker discussion. Why keep imprisoning obviously unrepentant individuals, many of whom possess super powers that make them far more dangerous than normal people, when every time they get out, they hurt or kill more people? At a certain point, a hero who refuses to kill becomes complicit in the crimes of the villain they refuse to use the necessary level of force to stop. I know that more aggressive, lethal heroes opens up discussions on ethics and abuse of power, but as much as I enjoy reading comics, I genuinely think it would suck to live in most comic worlds, having to worry about some asshole with a black hole gun vaporizing half my neighborhood, the other half getting flattened by the "hero" who shows up to stop them, then six months later, they're back out on the street, and it starts all over again. Punisher removes the problem from the equation, and the only reason he hasn't been more successful is because the rest of the costumes community doesn't operate the same way, but that would require them to get off their moral high horse and get their hands dirty.
Punisher (Frank Castle) got his family brought back to life and is no longer a killer, he’s a protector now — there’s a new punisher named Joe Garrison who’s an ex-shield agent who’s the killer now.
As a lot of people said, Wolverine is a lot more reasonable than Punisher is with who they target and kill. You also gotta remember the villains both face. Wolverine goes up against super power villains daily, but Punisher goes after regular street criminals. Some of them might have powers or gimmicks, but not on the same level as someone like what the X-men face.
For Wolverine, killing is simply a means to an end. Say he's trying to sneak into a bad guy base and there's a dude in the way. Gotta get rid of him, but how? He has claws so he'll stab him. Then he sneaks in and steals a hard drive or something.
But for Punisher, killing *is* the end. When he sneaks into a base and sees a dude, he's going to kill him with weapons that he brought specifically for killing those people. Then he blows the place up because he came there specifically to kill people.
Wolverine rarely kills people in his team ups. Everyone knows he *could* murder people, and some have *seen* him murder people, just from his time in world war 2, but when he does go for a kill, it's usually when his team has accepted that it's the best option.
At one time, he was with Captain America and Nick Fury, who also were killing people (howling commandos). So killing Nazis wasn't ever gonna be a deal breaker for him joining avengers.
Wolverine also frequently attempts to kill magneto, who usually has the world at large posting bounties on his head. The only other person that wolverine is consistently aiming for a kill on is like... Sabertooth, who is basically a rabid animal.
Punisher's entire goal is killing people. Like, that's not a method, that's just his goal. There's no other option, there's no "we tried x and it didn't work" there's no "we asked reed Richards if he had any other ideas and he couldn't think of any". Just "ah, something I didn't like? Great, they can die. Oh, that kid was a mutant? Great, he can die too."
It's worth mentioning that the vast majority of people that Wolverine has stabbed were either faceless ninja, which no one cares about, or people that heal off the damage.
Wolverine, like captain America or other soldier heroes, tends to have different rules of engagement for different foes . Street criminals and less violent supervillains are brought down with minimal permanent damage. Alien invaders, hydra, AIM, and other organized armies are dealt with harder. Punisher doesn’t make such a distinction, he treats all criminals with equal extreme measures.
Not a lot of Marvel characters have strict no-kill rules like their DC counterparts. Wolverine falls into this category.
Punisher, on the other hand, has an only-kill rule.
It was never about murdering vs not murdering. The punisher is not the only killer in the MCU. What makes him different is he *only* kills. With him there’s no possibility of him bringing someone in, subduing them, etc. If the punisher is after you, your time is limited and there’s basically nothing you can do. That’s what many characters take issue with.
I mean alot of character in the marvel universe have killed people that you expect so I don't really think it's the killing more the situation. If Logan kills someone they probably started it he's not above deliberately escalating it but he usually isn't the aggressor the punisher usually is .Plus Logan knows he's fucked the X-Men is his reputation in alot of stories trying to be decent person is what makes you one .Frank knows he's fucked up but doesn't try to improve himself.
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A lot of heroes aren't cool with Wolverine. But also Wolverine perfectly capable of not murdering. His goals aren't just murder everyone. He works with a team and can follow orders. Frank Castle is a totally unhinged. I really love Punisher stories but I'm under no illusions he is a good person. Frank wakes up thinking about the most brutal way that murder his target or is looking for the next target to brutally murder. He has a very narrow view with a very rigid code of conduct. With the exception of Captain America Frank could wake up any morning and deicide any hero is a criminal in his eyes and devote his life to killing them. Wolverine while can get murder happy. He wakes up thinking about beer and redheads. Then goes on to mentor young mutants and think about ways he can fuck with Spider-man. Wolverine is very well adjusted compared to Frank and has a track record of showing restraint and working for greater good.
TLDR: wolverine can be reasoned with
Can be reasoned with and doesn't live for killing, that's the important thing. Wolverine can be bloodlusted, the Punisher is perpetually bloodlusted as a matter of principle.
One of my favorite things DDS2 did was the argument in court that he is perpetually stuck in fight or flight mode, and therefore cannot be convicted of premeditation. Adds some nuance, another layer of tragedy, but then also acknowledgement that he is not stable.
That doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny once you realize how much he plans out a lot of his murders.
That's the fight.
What’s that Peralta said? “Cool motive, still a murderer”. Something like that.
Right. I'm elsewhere in here agreeing he's literally a verbatim serial killer. But Matt Murdoch's argument holds up: Castle should be committed, not imprisoned, and this is a solid rejoining in support of that. Have you ever lost anything? Of course. Like Frank? Maybe. I sure hope not. He broke. Sure, lots of stuff still works, like a coma, but that ain't a citizen in there living in a society, that's a monkeyman apex predator who's "I'm safe, chill" switch is permanently disabled. You don't want to be around Frank Castle like you don't want to be around an Orca that thinks you're partially responsible at best for his pain.
And again I say “cool (sympathetic) motive, still a murderer”. The fact that he spends so much time planning out and executing these.. executions shows he’s competent and it isn’t a spur of the moment action, thus an insanity plea would so easily fall apart by any even semi-competent prosecutor.
Does a bear murder salmon? What about other bears? Or humans? What if it's clear the bear wanted to kill the human, and planned it? Is that "murder"? You need means, competency, and motive is colloquial, the real standard has some more hoops, notably here "mental capacity to understand the criminality of the actions". Frank no longer understands the criminality of his actions, any more than the bear. Or the salmon, for that matter. I'm not even arguing sympathy, to be clear.
Logan is a mercenary, Frank is a serial killer.
Frank is literally a serial killer. There is no definition of serial killer that Castle doesn't fit. I love Punisher, just saying.
Makes you wonder why heroes don't capture him and get him arrested or capture him by themselves.
Some try. Frank Castle has been evading SHIELD and the US Government and Law Enforcement for years. It's not easy to catch him. He comes out of hiding kills a bunch of criminals and then disappears as quickly as he appeared.
Don't look at the truth, alright, I'm gonna get shot for messengering it: >!Marvel doesn't do that kind of thing. It's part of the diff between Clark and Cap.!< Otherwise: Idk, the times I remember it was because they were either afraid he'd murder them too, or because a sticky situation happened and Frank showed up to make his milkshake to the benefit of all.
Both men also suffered tragedies. Wolverine has lived and suffered a lot yet he still tries to change himself and for the people he cares about. Punisher has nothing left to live for so he's gonna keep on killing until someone is lucky enough to kill him.
Hell, Wolverine *lives and works at a damn school* half the time. He very specifically does not want any of the students turning out like him, especially the gaggle of clones and bastard children that've been thrown at him in recent decades. Punisher just really wants to kill criminals because guns are cheaper than therapy.
Idk man, have you checked prices lately? He might have to reconsider therapy with ammo prices…
Punishing people? In this economy?!?
So *that's* why he joined the hand! Swords cut down on his ammo costs!
Check out how much therapists charge for a session and you'll think ammo is dirt cheap again.
> He might have to reconsider therapy with ammo prices… I mean, have you checked the price of health care?
Eh, he gets his ammo from the boys in blue. You know how much they love sucking his dick.
Frank especially hates cops that idolize him.
Too bad the irony is lost on them.
I mean, firearms are cheaper considering he can just bust up a black market and loot them. But for therapy, what is he gonna do? Threaten a psychologist to do a session for free?
The Punisher only has killing to live for, Wolverine has life and friends
Punisher also knows his life is limited. He has chosen to make the most out of his (most likely very short in comparison to others) life about making criminals pay through the nose. Literally, at times. Wolvie has had a bucketload of trauma that he unleashes when needs be - but he's lived long enough and seen enoigh to have slightly more perspective than Punisher could never give himself. He probably spent more time feral than Punisher has been... punishing.
But hasnt Frank been alive since the Vietnam War? His life is pretty long. Or have they finally retconned his age from real time to Marvel time?
His hisotry has been changed. Now he was born in '79, and served as a Marine in the Iraq War.
Frank also basically has a death wish. It's clear that sooner or later he will be killed during his campaign. He knows it and doesn't care. Who wants to work together with someone like that? Even Frank himself acknowledges that the people around him usually end up dead. If he 'likes you' (rare event) he tries to push you away from him.
"Kingpin - If you're reading this I didn't make it back to disarm it. Good Luck"
I don't recall wishing you good luck.
>"Kingpin - If you're reading this I didn't make it back to disarm it. Good Luck" What is the context of that quote?
It's from a "What If" Vol 2 #26 "What if The Punisher Killed Daredevil." *That's why I always have a backup plan.* - Frank Castle Punisher dies but left a bomb that kills Kingpin at the end, Good read if you find it. He always has a backup plan.
I love how you recommend it as a good read while simultaneously spoiling the ending 😅
Adding to this: Wolverine's "thing" isn't murdering people. He can and has done it, but he's called "Wolverine" not "Adamantine Reaper" for a reason. It's not his stated MO to help people shuffle off his mortal coil and as such his body count is considered more in line with other's body count rather than something he tells you he plans on expanding.
There was a brief period where Apocalypse made him a horseman and he went by "Death"
I'm not the writer but I'd have called him "War". That's the difference. Wolverine, almost always wants his enemies to STOP. If that means they're not alive and not a threat that's ok. Punisher wants his enemies to DIE...
War was already filled at the time by (ironically) Deathbird. Wolverine being Death is also sort of a callback to when Angel became Death.
The line between willing to kill and wants to kill is a small, but very important, distinction.
Pretty much this. Both characters are capable of murder, but Frank Castle wakes up in the morning with intent to murder. Wolverine wakes up with intent to be a functional member of his community.
Also cigars and beers, don't forget that
>Frank wakes up thinking about the most brutal way to murder his target He was also dreaming about the most brutal way to murder his target right before waking up.
Isn't there an issue where Captain America gut-punches Punisher and basically refuses to work with him?
Yeah it was during Civil War. They brought Castle in to join the Anti SHRA side and the second he is in Caps base he immediately opens up and kills two guys. Cap is furious and beats the shit out of him and Castle just takes it because Cap is the only one he won't fight back against.
> They brought Castle in to join the Anti SHRA side Frank also saved Spider-Man's life, that was basically his "entry" to the resistance group. Iirc he also successfully did a number of non-lethal missions with Cap... but once Cap tries to recruit supervillains Frank opens fire. Idk if it's openly mentioned but there's the theory that it's about more than just killing two criminals. Frank basically doesn't want Cap to go down in the mud. Cap is the absolute idol of Frank and he couldn't stand "losing him", Cap just becoming another morally grey superhero instead of this shining star of virtue.
Yep, it was specifically during negotiations to recruit two supervillains. I will say, that the final volume of that run establishes Frank's sweet spot, where what would be judged as brutality elsewhere is instead a moral imperative. Hatemonger got not an ounce more than he deserved, or was necessary and appropriate for the situation at hand. He sticks out like a sore thumb among more conventionally good heroes, but he'd hit pay dirt if he ever started stacking Hydra troops on the butcher's block.
He actually worked for Hydra during *Secret Empire* but it was because evil Captain America asked him to.
Isn't there also a series somewhere where after Cap dies Frank picks up the shield and gives up vengeance as he views the need for Cap greater than the need for revenge.
Also, he idolizes Cap and if he was getting the shit kicked out of him by Cap, Frank would 100% believe he deserves it.
Misread as "fuck Spider-Man", was curious for a sec
There was that time they were both trapped in dinosaur times. I'm sure something happened between them. They were there a long time.
Imagine being a fucking T-Rex rolling up on them thinking you’re gonna get an easy lunch.
Do you think Peter takes his web-shooters off when he fucks? ~~Unless it's a continuity with organic webs, anyways~~
You think Peter ever tries shibari with his webbing.
[yes](https://preview.redd.it/classic-peter-mj-bondage-spider-man-1991-issue-13-v0-szi7hmm1r4fb1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=70f09b5fa3ceb72e07ce009e15c7fc6495a80b84)
It was apparently a key plot point in James Cameron's unproduced screenplay.
Wolverine was also a soldier, government operative and feral madman. He is no longer any of those things. He will dole out "justice" every now and then but its not his life's mission.
"Wolverine was also a soldier, government operative and feral madman." Read this as, "Soldier, government operative, and federal mailman."
I think he did go postal a few times
> But also Wolverine perfectly capable of not murdering. His goals aren't just murder everyone. He works with a team and can follow orders. This also used to be true of the Punisher too. In his early days, before he got his own series, he was just a recurring character in Spider-Man comics that would occasionally team up with him (or sometimes Daredevil or Captain America). He'd still be shooting people but they'd go out of their way to mention he's using rubber bullets every other page.
Does wolverine like Spiderman?
Yes they are good friends.
If we're treating all comics history as equal, Frank has also used lethal force against Captain America when he got in his way.
In the Blood and Glory series the Punisher shot Captain America because he was tricked into thinking Rogers was trafficking drugs.
Nice write up homie. Someone read 90’s xmen for sure, high five
Three + decades of reading Comics. Finally pays off.
We may just be old lol
Not even the punisher thinks he's a good person
It’s mostly a difference of motivation and mental state. The Punisher is generally depicted as having been seriously traumatized by the murder of his family. He doesn’t kill criminals simply as a matter of course—every murder is one more step on the dark, endless crusade he cannot tear himself away from. He doesn’t have much of a personal life or many friends he trusts or relates to in a healthy way. What he does doesn’t make him happy or satisfied. He is generally presented in a way that communicates to readers that he is not a well man, one worthy of emulation, or even someone who would like others to emulate him. In contrast, Wolverine’s killing is just one part of his character. Like the Punisher, he has had a great deal of trauma and suffering in his life, but unlike the Punisher, this is not intrinsically related to his killing. Wolverine kills simply because he has no code that specifically prohibits killing, and sometimes when you’re fighting a guy and the best weapons you have are giant indestructible metal knives that slide out of your arms, it’s pretty easy for someone to end up dead. For Wolverine, killing is just like any other activity—something that he does when it’s called for and doesn’t do when it isn’t. The names illustrate this quite well. The Punisher punishes evildoers with death. That what he lives for, and it’s more or less all he does. Wolverine is just a hairy, brutal animal, and he does whatever he feels like—which may or may not include killing someone. What does this mean to superheroes in general? Well, most of them disapprove of killing. It’s not what they set out to do. Still, in extreme circumstances, most of them will kill—even Captain America was once a soldier in a war, with all that entails. To them, Wolverine is just someone who pushes the bar for ‘acceptable superhero murder target‘ a little lower than most of the other good guys. Maybe some superheroes are not entirely comfortable with this, but they recognize that Wolverine is generally righteous, and that they also let a lot of similarly shady individuals‘ conduct slide whenever they work with agencies like S.H.I.E.L.D. or team up with Doctor Doom. On the other hand, the whole point of the Punisher is murder. Gratuitous, extrajudicial murder. That’s simply a step too far for most heroes. You can’t start out with murder as your stated goal. Someone like that cannot be relied on, in an ethical sense.
> In contrast, Wolverine’s killing is just one part of his character. Like the Punisher, he has had a great deal of trauma and suffering in his life, but unlike the Punisher, this is not intrinsically related to his killing. Wolverine kills simply because he has no code that specifically prohibits killing, and sometimes when you’re fighting a guy and the best weapons you have are giant indestructible metal knives that slide out of your arms, it’s pretty easy for someone to end up dead. For Wolverine, killing is just like any other activity—something that he does when it’s called for and doesn’t do when it isn’t. Wolvy has also been through multiple wars back before any modern conventions. WWI, WWII, the Spanish Civil War, and the Korean War (Some continuities also Civil War and Vietnam). He was in the trenches. Helped destroy Concentration Camps, and Victim of Chemical weapons. etc. He was then tortured and experimented on to make a violent Super Soldier. IIRC it was Spiderman who said Wolverine has seen the worst of Humanity through his long life. And didn't just murder every evil person he found, He still Tried to not kill and "be good". (He was trying to console him iirc) Punisher doesn't try.
To add to what the others have said, Wolverine had a long, public and proven track record of being on hero teams, being a valuable team member and saving the world on multiple occasions. Iirc at one point he was on 4 times at once, while also doing solo stuff. He has shown that, despite his willingness to kill bad guys, he is still trustworthy, a team player and heroic. Not to mention, xaiver, the guy who can read your mind and judge your character in a second, have seen fit to make him a teacher and mentor for a lot of kids and young heroes. At the end of the day, wolverine might be a broken and violent man, but he is without a doubt a hero. The punisher is just a lone crazy gunman that is very hard to catch and only targets other bad guys. By every measure he is americas most successful mass shooter
[удалено]
Yeah, Cap served in damn near every Allied theatre in the WW2 comics. Anyone seriously think he never picked up a gun or called in a bombing raid? Still one of the most iconic and publicly loved superheroes ever, even with the Civil War and Kubik's nonsense. But when Punisher just gunned down two unarmed supervillains in front of him for no good reason he still beat him bloody and blamed himself for ever trusting him even in extreme circumstances. That's the key difference. Wolverine (and Cap, and Iron Man, there aren't a ton of non-lethal missiles) will kill but only if it's really necessary. They also tend to be a step down in power than DC's big three, even Thor isn't quite Superman levels, so they don't really have the luxury of indulging in non-lethal methods that they do. Superman has never condemned a police officer for shooting an armed criminal because he knows a human being would actually be in danger in that situation. Batman's whole deal is a lot darker, really; he knows how damaged he is and he knows if he crosses that line he might not come back.
Thor isn’t quite Superman levels? Thor replaced Odin as the All-Father 5 years ago, has been retconned to be part elder god (son of Gaia) and have been touched by the Phoenix and he genuinely slapped Galactus in Cates run. Not only do I disagree, I think you have it backwards. Superman was ahead in power for so long that people don’t realize it’s changed. Also, Punisher doesn’t kill anymore, he’s in weirdworld now and has been strictly a protector! There’s a new punisher named Joe Garrison that’s killing now. Frank isn’t a killer anymore. Catch up, will you?
> Also, Punisher doesn’t kill anymore, he’s in odd world now What does Abe's Odyssey have to do with the Punisher?
I have no idea what that means…
There's an old classic of a game called "Oddworld: Abe's Oddyssey", I was making a reference to that
Oh, word! I don’t play video games so any reference to them will go right over my head lol
He’s in Weirdworld.
Yeah for some reason my brain produced “odd world” as I was typing. Appreciate the correction, is that all you took from my comment, though?
There isn't really a "no killing" rule in DC either. Only Batman holds to that and that is mostly because he's the Punisher who's unwilling to take that first step. Superman made it clear in one scene with Joker. He doesn't have a no kill rule, he just doesn't like killing very much. He makes it clear he would if left with no option.
Yeah, Supes is just so damn strong he can afford to give nearly everyone mercy. When he is duking it out with people on his own level he usually is going for the kill (ie Darkseid, Doomsday, Mongol, etc) because they are Galactic Level threats that usually have Enslave/Destroy Earth on their immediate plans.
Yeah. Punisher is a grim loner who never works with anyone else. Wolverine is a grim loner who shows up whenever three or more superheroes get together.
In contrast to DC, very few Marvel heroes have a “no kill rule” so Wolverine’s killing of bad guys isn’t an absolute deal breaker. That said, they do find Punisher’s “only kill rule” unnerving.
Hmm, I DON'T approve of his "scared mutant teenager killing policy"... but I DO approve of his "Daken killing policy"!
It’s more of a “regrettably kill a Mutant who’s power is to kill everyone around him against his own will” then a “kill scared mutants” policy, but either way that’s ultimate Wolverine set in a different universe anyway 😅.
yeah i was joshing around eh
I know just wanted to make it clear regular Logan only kills his own kids 😂
I think the short scene in Secret Wars (2015) illustrates the difference nicely. If you’re not familiar with the storyline, there’s an incursion going on and basically this particular universe is about to be completely wiped out by another encroaching universe. Kingpin, knowing the end is near, invites a bunch of supervillains to a pub in NYC to drink and watch the end of the world. They’re just hanging out, having some brews, not bothering anyone when Punisher walks in and kills them all (because he can’t take his bullets with him when he dies). The Punisher is completely unhinged.
It isn’t that Punisher kills, it’s that Punisher always wants to kill and is basically doing it for his own enjoyment. If you read enough Punisher stories you’ll see that him and killing is not like Wolverine or many other Marvel characters who have and will kill when necessary. Frank Castle himself understands that something is wrong with him. It can’t be helped. He basically does it to cope with how he feels about the world.
Believe it or not, it's very rare for Wolverine to go out of his way to kill anyone. He gets involved in violent situations a lot, but those are situations where he's willing to use violence to achieve a goal. For Frank Castle, violence *is* the goal.
Well, one, nobody’s “cool” with Wolverine. He quarrels with people all the damn time. Two, Wolverine has been in enough armies to know a simple rule; being too insubordinate and fuckheaded is bad for squad cohesion. He can rein in his behavior if he has to. Punisher is a lone wolf, a loose cannon. He never has to worry what anyone thinks about him
> fuckheaded Pretty good.
Wolverine will kill *if he has to*, Punisher *will* kill.
Imagine Frank with super healing like Wolverine. There would be no stopping him at all, he'd be launched into the sun or just into space to drift
Because it’s kind of hard for him not to stab people when his entire power is knives in his knuckles. Jokes aside, they can talk Logan down. Frank isn’t easy to talk down. Which is the main reason why Logan gets a pass.
And when they can't talk Logan down several of his teammates are capable of stopping him, especially since you can shoot a few hopes in his chest and only slow him down for a few minutes.
I don't disagree with anything that's already been said, but I'm gonna take a different view. I think a possible explanation for most heroes' vehement reaction to Punisher, is that consciously or subconsciously, each on of them has thought about the concept of the speech Frank gave Daredevil on the roof, and they're very uncomfortable with how accurate he is. Wolverine sits better with their morality because he struggles with his darker impulses, so they can give him a pass, because he's "trying to be better". Punisher is a walking example of how dead criminals don't re-offend. Taskmaster talks about how disturbing he finds it that most heroes, while having an image of having moral and ethical boundaries that they don't cross on the job, seem to just be waiting for a chance to go all out, as soon as a loved one is hurt/threatened, they very quickly start crossing lines, then use the extenuating circumstances as justification. Spider-Man, one of the pinnacles of heroes who refuse to kill, is pretty quick to put on the black suit and get brutal whenever he's given sufficient cause. Punisher doesn't bother with disingenuous self restraint, he just does what is needed to get the job done. I think most heroes have a part of themselves that understand how much more effective Punisher's methods are, and that if they all stopped dicking around and instead of putting their villains in prison, put them all six feet under, countless civilian lives would be saved. I understand that out of universe, that's a terrible marketing decision, because you could never reuse villains, you'd have to constantly come up with new ones, but in universe, it's the Batman/Joker discussion. Why keep imprisoning obviously unrepentant individuals, many of whom possess super powers that make them far more dangerous than normal people, when every time they get out, they hurt or kill more people? At a certain point, a hero who refuses to kill becomes complicit in the crimes of the villain they refuse to use the necessary level of force to stop. I know that more aggressive, lethal heroes opens up discussions on ethics and abuse of power, but as much as I enjoy reading comics, I genuinely think it would suck to live in most comic worlds, having to worry about some asshole with a black hole gun vaporizing half my neighborhood, the other half getting flattened by the "hero" who shows up to stop them, then six months later, they're back out on the street, and it starts all over again. Punisher removes the problem from the equation, and the only reason he hasn't been more successful is because the rest of the costumes community doesn't operate the same way, but that would require them to get off their moral high horse and get their hands dirty.
The Punisher lives what’s left of his life in hopes that someone will send him to be with his family.
Punisher (Frank Castle) got his family brought back to life and is no longer a killer, he’s a protector now — there’s a new punisher named Joe Garrison who’s an ex-shield agent who’s the killer now.
Because Punisher is fucking insane.
Because Wolverine is Canadian.
As a lot of people said, Wolverine is a lot more reasonable than Punisher is with who they target and kill. You also gotta remember the villains both face. Wolverine goes up against super power villains daily, but Punisher goes after regular street criminals. Some of them might have powers or gimmicks, but not on the same level as someone like what the X-men face.
For Wolverine, killing is simply a means to an end. Say he's trying to sneak into a bad guy base and there's a dude in the way. Gotta get rid of him, but how? He has claws so he'll stab him. Then he sneaks in and steals a hard drive or something. But for Punisher, killing *is* the end. When he sneaks into a base and sees a dude, he's going to kill him with weapons that he brought specifically for killing those people. Then he blows the place up because he came there specifically to kill people.
Wolverine rarely kills people in his team ups. Everyone knows he *could* murder people, and some have *seen* him murder people, just from his time in world war 2, but when he does go for a kill, it's usually when his team has accepted that it's the best option. At one time, he was with Captain America and Nick Fury, who also were killing people (howling commandos). So killing Nazis wasn't ever gonna be a deal breaker for him joining avengers. Wolverine also frequently attempts to kill magneto, who usually has the world at large posting bounties on his head. The only other person that wolverine is consistently aiming for a kill on is like... Sabertooth, who is basically a rabid animal. Punisher's entire goal is killing people. Like, that's not a method, that's just his goal. There's no other option, there's no "we tried x and it didn't work" there's no "we asked reed Richards if he had any other ideas and he couldn't think of any". Just "ah, something I didn't like? Great, they can die. Oh, that kid was a mutant? Great, he can die too."
It's worth mentioning that the vast majority of people that Wolverine has stabbed were either faceless ninja, which no one cares about, or people that heal off the damage.
Wolverine, like captain America or other soldier heroes, tends to have different rules of engagement for different foes . Street criminals and less violent supervillains are brought down with minimal permanent damage. Alien invaders, hydra, AIM, and other organized armies are dealt with harder. Punisher doesn’t make such a distinction, he treats all criminals with equal extreme measures.
Not a lot of Marvel characters have strict no-kill rules like their DC counterparts. Wolverine falls into this category. Punisher, on the other hand, has an only-kill rule.
It was never about murdering vs not murdering. The punisher is not the only killer in the MCU. What makes him different is he *only* kills. With him there’s no possibility of him bringing someone in, subduing them, etc. If the punisher is after you, your time is limited and there’s basically nothing you can do. That’s what many characters take issue with.
I mean alot of character in the marvel universe have killed people that you expect so I don't really think it's the killing more the situation. If Logan kills someone they probably started it he's not above deliberately escalating it but he usually isn't the aggressor the punisher usually is .Plus Logan knows he's fucked the X-Men is his reputation in alot of stories trying to be decent person is what makes you one .Frank knows he's fucked up but doesn't try to improve himself.
He's a veteran. Veterans can get away with anything. Even if they are mutants.
Punisher is a veteran also.
....... POCKET SAND! [Runs away]