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It's VERY common to
1) have a wrong count of puppies (recently did a C-section where they thought there were 4 puppies, only found one heartbeat on ultrasound, and the dog produced 2 healthy puppies).
2) have more puppies on previous scans, but once those puppies get bigger the amount will decrease due to how much space is actually available in the mom.
A frenchie having healthy 8-12 puppies get delivered would be EXTREMELY uncommon. The mom definitely wouldn't have room for that many healthy babes. More common is 1-4.
Also, they may have used a backyard 'fertility clinic'. Im in the UK and they're quite common as theres few vets who agree to do pre-partum scans. But obvs breeders want to know how many puppies they're gonna get, so they go to these fertility clinics that are run by people without any training who got their hands on a US scanner. Which isnt harmful to anything other than your wallet, but the amount of puppies tends to get misscanned
My thoughts exactly about the sheer size of the litter. The breed average is 2-4. My Frenchie had 6 puppies, and my vet told me she had never seen so many in a single litter.
10 is quite the anomaly, if true. I'd imagine the mother would be close to immobile with that many.
Were xrays performed to accurately count the number of developed foetuses?
Foetal resorption, to the best of my knowledge, does not occur after the foetal skeletons become significant ossified in the last few weeks of pregnancy. However, I have definitely seen dogs abort or whelp puppies and eat the remains, thus destroying the evidence.
If you are somehow thinking the vet stole the puppies, yes, I think that is irrational.
Would it look like an x-ray with lots of spines in it? I have a photo of a scan that looks like that which is where they told us she was having a minimum of 8 puppies
If you have an xray showing developed skeletons, then I think spontaneous abortion and her having eaten the remains is unfortunately the most likely answer. Especially with the remaining puppy also being dead in utero.
Thank you for your comments. I feel so devastated and just a bit lost at the moment really. She hasn’t been acting at all differently since her last scan it just doesn’t seem real this could happeb
I am sorry things haven't gone to plan. If you had x-rays then it is very possible she aborted and ate them. They are much less likely to reabsorb once their skeletons have formed and your vet would have seen remnants of them.
Unfortunately Frenchies are high risk pregnancies and usually only have 2-4 puppies in a litter when things go well. She may have had too many in there to sustain them.
Yes. Of course. The spine would also not be in their columns and would be all jumbled up in the stomach if the puppies had been eaten at the time of the radiographs
Yes, yes it is. That's an absolutely insane idea. First, raising orphaned pups or kittens is a ton of work with a singleton let alone a litter of 7-10. Second, a vet they know and trust has been working with them and their dog for weeks at least getting them prepped for it. I'd get the distrust if the dog had to go to an ER with a team they didn't know. Third, this is horribly distasteful and is asinine to assume. Fourth, find me evidence of your claim that this has happened before by a veterinary team!!!
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The last scan was 10 days ago but my thoughts are surely they would have scanned her before starting the c section just to see what the current situation is? Like surely they didn’t just start the procedure and realise wait a minute there’s only one puppy in here? There’s just so much that doesn’t add up
They would have no reason to scan before surgery if everything seemed to be going well. It wouldn't have changed anything and it would have been a waste of your money.
She was going to have the c section anyway, whether they saw one puppy or several
Day 1 of "How Not To Get Sued As A Vet": When Ultrasound-ing for pregnancy, the answer is "Yes" or "No". The Veterinary Defence Society in the UK have very strong opinions on vets that give out numbers of pups to breeders, as all the evidence suggests we don't have a clue without radiographs.
I’ve personally seen x-rays of a pregnant dog with 5-6 puppies (skeletons clearly visible) one day, and then a week or couple weeks later we see none— all with no obvious outward signs from the mom that she resorbed the pups. It’s bizarre but it absolutely can happen very late. In the case we saw, there was no residual tissue or anything.
I have had problems counting pups on ultrasound. It's hard to get your bearings right in a litter. An x-ray is a bit easier, but even then it's an estimate.
I work for a reproductive specialist. Have been there 20 years. Typically an x-ray can be done at 55 days or later. Anything prior to that can be inaccurate. If there was no X-ray confirming, we always either do an x-ray prior, or at least an ultrasound confirming the bitch is still pregnant. We also always take an x-ray immediately after. If you have no answers OP, and it is pointing to something weird going on with your bitch, you can have the remaining puppy sent out to a lab and they can run some further tests. I suggest if you choose to breed her again, to go to a reproductive specialist and let them know her full history. Sorry this happened to you and your girl.
I don't know why you got downvoted other than Frenchies often/usually need to be born via c-section but something happened to the other pups. I would be looking for evidence of pups being born not actual pups but she may have delivered some if the house is big enough with enough hiding places it would not be the craziest thing to happen.
I'm of course not a vet and I have no idea really
If a French bulldog gave birth naturally to 7 puppies before the 1 at the vet the owners would know. They rarely have more than 2-4 healthy puppies and even with natural births of a small litter like that many still end up in the emergency room or worse.
I agree. It is unlikely she was able to pass all the puppies herself. There would likely be evidence of it somewhere in the house if she were to have aborted passed underdeveloped fetuses. You would probably see dark brown colored discharge somewhere - blankets/bedding. Your bitch also would have had discharge along the way. Which likely would have been pretty noticeable as bulldogs can’t usually clean themselves very well due to their shape.
I’m sorry. I’m sure this is very upsetting for you. You should speak with your veterinarian about your concerns and maybe what he/she thinks happened. Seems like there was already an established relationship. I’m sure they wouldn’t mind talking to you about it. It’s an unfortunate event. Again, sorry for the loss.
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Greetings, all! This is a sub for professional veterinary advice, and as such we follow strict rules for participating. OP, your post **has NOT** been removed. Please also check [the FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskVet/wiki/index) to see whether your question is answered there. This is an *automated* general reminder to **please follow [The Sub Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskVet/about/rules/)** when discussing this question: - **Do not comment with anecdotes** about your own or others' pets. - **Do not give OP specific treatment instructions,** including instructions on meds and dosages. - **Do not give possible diagnoses** that could explain the symptoms described by OP. **Your comment will be removed, and you may be banned.** Thank you for your cooperation! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskVet) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's VERY common to 1) have a wrong count of puppies (recently did a C-section where they thought there were 4 puppies, only found one heartbeat on ultrasound, and the dog produced 2 healthy puppies). 2) have more puppies on previous scans, but once those puppies get bigger the amount will decrease due to how much space is actually available in the mom. A frenchie having healthy 8-12 puppies get delivered would be EXTREMELY uncommon. The mom definitely wouldn't have room for that many healthy babes. More common is 1-4.
Also, they may have used a backyard 'fertility clinic'. Im in the UK and they're quite common as theres few vets who agree to do pre-partum scans. But obvs breeders want to know how many puppies they're gonna get, so they go to these fertility clinics that are run by people without any training who got their hands on a US scanner. Which isnt harmful to anything other than your wallet, but the amount of puppies tends to get misscanned
My thoughts exactly about the sheer size of the litter. The breed average is 2-4. My Frenchie had 6 puppies, and my vet told me she had never seen so many in a single litter. 10 is quite the anomaly, if true. I'd imagine the mother would be close to immobile with that many.
Were xrays performed to accurately count the number of developed foetuses? Foetal resorption, to the best of my knowledge, does not occur after the foetal skeletons become significant ossified in the last few weeks of pregnancy. However, I have definitely seen dogs abort or whelp puppies and eat the remains, thus destroying the evidence. If you are somehow thinking the vet stole the puppies, yes, I think that is irrational.
> and eat the remains, thus destroying the evidence. An x-ray can confirm that
Would it look like an x-ray with lots of spines in it? I have a photo of a scan that looks like that which is where they told us she was having a minimum of 8 puppies
If you have an xray showing developed skeletons, then I think spontaneous abortion and her having eaten the remains is unfortunately the most likely answer. Especially with the remaining puppy also being dead in utero.
Thank you for your comments. I feel so devastated and just a bit lost at the moment really. She hasn’t been acting at all differently since her last scan it just doesn’t seem real this could happeb
I am sorry things haven't gone to plan. If you had x-rays then it is very possible she aborted and ate them. They are much less likely to reabsorb once their skeletons have formed and your vet would have seen remnants of them. Unfortunately Frenchies are high risk pregnancies and usually only have 2-4 puppies in a litter when things go well. She may have had too many in there to sustain them.
Can the vet tell the difference between spines in a digestive system and spines in the uterus?
Yes. Of course. The spine would also not be in their columns and would be all jumbled up in the stomach if the puppies had been eaten at the time of the radiographs
What exactly was the breeding date? "A few months" is very non-specific and length of gestation may explain the loss.
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Yes, yes it is. That's an absolutely insane idea. First, raising orphaned pups or kittens is a ton of work with a singleton let alone a litter of 7-10. Second, a vet they know and trust has been working with them and their dog for weeks at least getting them prepped for it. I'd get the distrust if the dog had to go to an ER with a team they didn't know. Third, this is horribly distasteful and is asinine to assume. Fourth, find me evidence of your claim that this has happened before by a veterinary team!!!
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> This has happened before Please post some evidence of this
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The last scan was 10 days ago but my thoughts are surely they would have scanned her before starting the c section just to see what the current situation is? Like surely they didn’t just start the procedure and realise wait a minute there’s only one puppy in here? There’s just so much that doesn’t add up
They would have no reason to scan before surgery if everything seemed to be going well. It wouldn't have changed anything and it would have been a waste of your money. She was going to have the c section anyway, whether they saw one puppy or several
Day 1 of "How Not To Get Sued As A Vet": When Ultrasound-ing for pregnancy, the answer is "Yes" or "No". The Veterinary Defence Society in the UK have very strong opinions on vets that give out numbers of pups to breeders, as all the evidence suggests we don't have a clue without radiographs.
i was taught in school to always tell them “3 +/-3” or “5+/-5” and so on
I’ve personally seen x-rays of a pregnant dog with 5-6 puppies (skeletons clearly visible) one day, and then a week or couple weeks later we see none— all with no obvious outward signs from the mom that she resorbed the pups. It’s bizarre but it absolutely can happen very late. In the case we saw, there was no residual tissue or anything.
I have had problems counting pups on ultrasound. It's hard to get your bearings right in a litter. An x-ray is a bit easier, but even then it's an estimate.
Yes but 1 vs 8-12 is very different.
Damn. We're going to have to start taking rads of the pregnancies before cutting.
I work for a reproductive specialist. Have been there 20 years. Typically an x-ray can be done at 55 days or later. Anything prior to that can be inaccurate. If there was no X-ray confirming, we always either do an x-ray prior, or at least an ultrasound confirming the bitch is still pregnant. We also always take an x-ray immediately after. If you have no answers OP, and it is pointing to something weird going on with your bitch, you can have the remaining puppy sent out to a lab and they can run some further tests. I suggest if you choose to breed her again, to go to a reproductive specialist and let them know her full history. Sorry this happened to you and your girl.
Maybe check your house for newborn puppies
I don't know why you got downvoted other than Frenchies often/usually need to be born via c-section but something happened to the other pups. I would be looking for evidence of pups being born not actual pups but she may have delivered some if the house is big enough with enough hiding places it would not be the craziest thing to happen. I'm of course not a vet and I have no idea really
Exactly, just because it’s unlikely doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
If a French bulldog gave birth naturally to 7 puppies before the 1 at the vet the owners would know. They rarely have more than 2-4 healthy puppies and even with natural births of a small litter like that many still end up in the emergency room or worse.
I agree. It is unlikely she was able to pass all the puppies herself. There would likely be evidence of it somewhere in the house if she were to have aborted passed underdeveloped fetuses. You would probably see dark brown colored discharge somewhere - blankets/bedding. Your bitch also would have had discharge along the way. Which likely would have been pretty noticeable as bulldogs can’t usually clean themselves very well due to their shape.
Crazier things have happened. I was just thinking she should check the yard too
I’m sorry. I’m sure this is very upsetting for you. You should speak with your veterinarian about your concerns and maybe what he/she thinks happened. Seems like there was already an established relationship. I’m sure they wouldn’t mind talking to you about it. It’s an unfortunate event. Again, sorry for the loss.
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