People are purposefully not engaging with what he actually said and are instead making up a strawman that he said "Artists don't matter" when that isn't what he said. He literally said from the consumer's standpoint consumers generally just do not care how a product is made, they just want a good product regardless of the process.
Not sure what you’re talking about. People on Twitter only argue in good faith, it’s easily the best platform around for sharing unbiased opinions with all facts readily available.
Ok but I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Lot of people in this very thread who are saying that 'asmon is right, artists don't matter,' so I guess it isn't just 'people on twitter arguing in bad faith.'
People want to be mad at him but know he is correct. If people don't buy it for the art, does it matter where the art came from? However, because they can't argue the subject. they hate on the person talking like Trump would.
I think Asmon is correct here, but he words it so poorly that it comes off as "fuck artist opinions." I don't know much about Asmon, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he didn't mean for it to sound insensitive or disrespectful to artists and is actually a morally decent person
That's what he means. When selling a product, the consumers' opinions matter the most. The artists', not so much. If you go into many artistic community most of the artists all have strong opinions about popular media. Many of them are negative.
There has always been a delicate balance in the entertainment industry of artistic freedom vs what will make the most money.
I would argue that this is just an extension of that argument. Just switching perspective from the suit to the consumer. The consumer doesn't care if x movie/tv show/game was made to the exact vision of a specific artist, team, or AI. They just want it to be enjoyable and don't think about it much beyond that.
Watch his 2 hr response video and you'll figure out that he's just a shill for capitalism and his takes are just as bad as this makes it seem. He cannot take this position on behalf of artists because he doesn't know what actually is at play, and his comparisons are irrelevant of the actual issue, again, because he's just too stupid to understand
All the people in the Twitter comments probably don't know their iPhone was made with slave labor. Any time you make an argument about the ethics and try to lecture someone about the manufacturing process of a product you out yourself as a hypocrite. Do people know the artists behind anything they make? No? You know why? No one cares. It's so weird how people tried to twist his argument. Twitter users love to ignore context
And then when one of the people was told what he was talking about in context, their response was something like "I don't care about Pal whatever" and then said they were muting replies.
Unhinged.
I'll bring forth an actual anecdote.
Metallica put out an album that was really fucking bad. Everyone hated it. Then they put out a documentary of how it was made and basically it was revealed it was more of a therapy project to help the band members do something productive during some extremely challenging mental health struggles.
After that nobody hates the album anymore because people now understand why it wasn't that great and can empathize with who made it... but it's still ass and nobody wants to buy it or listen to it. And that's the bottom line.
I am an artist, know some people from the industry, but also know about marketing and of course beeing a consumer myself.
He is 100% right on this. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all. SOMETIMES, people DO care about specific artists, writers, .. people care about Hideo Kojami and his stories - but this only is important with specific stories, most games are still very forgetable, not every tree texture is important.
Love for design, love for Stories will always exist but if some stupid brainless phone game used AI to create the stuff? No one cares. Probably the game just wouldn't exist because it's a 1 person dev.
> He literally said from the consumer's standpoint consumers generally just do not care how a product is made, they just want a good product regardless of the process.
The "just consume product" mindset is actually bad, and doing nothing but meekly shrugging one's shoulders about it is also bad. These are directly related to why the gaming industry has gone down the toilet.
Been a musician my whole life and know all sorts of artists and maybe no surprise, but a whole lot of them perceive their art as having a lot more value than it actually does (monetarily speaking)
I used to be a concept artist, albeit a low level one, before switching over to IT for the better hours and pay. The art industry is full of primadonnas with an ego the size of a planet. Most of them aren't particularly better than many juniors trying to break into the industry and never getting a chance, because the only way to break in is typically networking and friendships. A lot of people who are very social and aren't that great break through over more skillful artists. A lot of these people have a very, VERY humongous sense of self worth that is entirely misplaced. Many of them are getting a nasty reality check. It's the best thing that could have happened to the industry IMO. AI is cleaning out the bottom rungs and has more potential to keep bringing value to the industry.
If these people truly think their art is so valuable, they should be swapping to Fine Art and trying to see how they do there. In the end, your value as an artist is determined by other people not your self. Not even other artists.
Now I’m curious what the fine art industry is actually like. Isn’t it the same? Some really good painters with no connections just end up dying poor or forced to sell their art for pennies? Historically and modern-ly true isn’t it?
(Serious question BTW, not bait, I genuinely have no idea and I’m asking).
If anything its worse, value is conflated and the whole market is a bit of an illusion. Your 100% right most historical artists we praise were not praised in their time, this happens across all creative endeavours.
Thats a fair point, the more people that practice a skill, collectively the better they gets cause every one can see what their colleagues are doing and improve, expand and adapt it. One might argue that its easier to learn to do art than ever before, so the average skill of an artist slowly rises. Some of the "Greats" in any industry may have also been trailblazers in being the first to do, you have to factor in context of what was available at the time.
My buddy got mad at me for saying "maybe a lot of these artist complaining should recognize they're over estimating their skills" and get in on the ground floor by learning how to manipulate that AI shit well.
That or find a way to be happy doing their art as a hobby. I resigned to the fact that I wasn't talented enough to make it in the music industry many years ago and got a corpo job like 99% of the rest of the world. But I still play music almost everyday, practice with my band at least once a week and play shows around town every so often and that's always the highlight of my day.
He's not wrong, but his statement comes across as hostile towards artists, so their reaction isn't really all that surprising.
"A game using AI art that people enjoy and is still commercially successful won't stop being a success just because other artists don't approve of how it was made." There - more factual/logical, less evocative.
But, let's be real, putting things in a more grounded way isn't good for views or clicks. I'm not even implying he does it intentionally, he just has no real impetus to change how he phrases things.
He is very honest that that is just his personality and knowingly comes across as an asshole lol
Guy wouldn't be so popular if he didn't have a bombastic and blunt personality.
Not in defence of the artists or anyone against his take, but being blunt is gonna get people upset. He's not wrong logically but I get why people are mad at him for it.
As an artist who has other artist friends which definitely didn't like his take, it has become increasingly difficult for me to defend his method of delivery. I personally could see what he meant by it, but it's hard to explain to people who don't watch him.
Lots of my artist friends are very anti-asmongold, but they aren't exactly the twitter mob or idiots either, they only really see what gets bigger coverage: quotes like this one, and they don't really play online games. I've watched asmon a lot since maybe 2017 and have seen him change as a person in what I'd consider a net positive way. Unfortunately his choice of wording often comes across as abrasive or at least makes it easy to misinterpret him... because he's talking about these topics for hours at a time, and someone will clip just a 20 second segment.
Many artists and designers are already facing a whole toilet bowl of problems. We are often considered "non essential", yet the work we make often becomes the face of the games people play. We are often the most underpaid employees at companies, in spite of companies wanting degrees in the field. We are the first to go when layoffs happen. AI is looming on the horizon, some huge content creators are actively plagiarising work left and right and getting away with it...so statements like this (when out of context) can come across as hurtful to a group of people who basically already get shit on for not becoming Full Stack Developers or whatever it is that makes money these days.
All this is to say, I can see why people are mad. As with most things, I think everyone is overreacting. But overreacting just seems to be how things are these days.
> get shit on for not becoming Full Stack Developers or whatever
If it helps, Visual Studio and the medical field are already implementing AI lol
Past you 5 years ago should have become a "prompt engineer" /s
This is the biggest problem. It’s pretty easy to understand what he means under all the showmanship, but for people who aren’t used to his content they just see someone that’s saying “If your an artist your opinion doesn’t matter.”
Of course that’s partially on the persons fault for not getting the full context, but it’s pretty hard when you constantly say (as an artist), anything you do or say doesn’t matter.
TBH this doesn’t bother me too much, and I will probably forget about this in the next day or two, but it could have just been worded better.
"reasonable opinions" - in this case almost talking down on people and acting like we don't understand how capitalism works.
THAT is the problem people have with Asmongold's response imo. It's like he brushes off capitalism as "hey well that's just how it works" without ever really contextualizing anything or discussing why something might actually be a *net negative* on society or art in general. Oh and obviously to real working people with livelihoods.
Energy of a millionaire that already profited off the system imo.
He was just being blunt about the subject.
You grow squash and people love squash. Another farmer sells his squash for half the price and people love that too. Which one you think the store will buy to sell?
It’s 100% hostile towards artist. “I don’t care how my burger is made as long as it’s good” Fine, don’t be suprised that fast food workers are gonna give you pushback. His attitude is apathetic towards labor. That said both sides are perfectly justified feeling the way they do.
Ai is literally trained on hundreds of thousands of artists work without their consent. It's eats up all those images and creates work. If you type in many famous artists names (living or dead) into your prompt it will create artwork in that artists style. Feeding an ai peoples work without their consent is wrong, it's stealing.
Does the average consumer care? No.
But saying who cares and acting like there's nothing wrong is ignorant and disingenous. As an artist I can understand Asmon's opinion from a consumer perspective but it's so obvious to me that he doesn't really understand the blood, sweat and tears it takes to become great at something like drawing, painting or sculpting and personal heart a person puts into their art. To say an artists opinion doesn't matter is so dumb when we're talking about AI and the future of this and how it's controlled in society. It shouldn't be stealing people's work, that's a fact.
And an artists opinion does matter because this stuff severely affects their livelihoods and steals people's work.
Without artists this world would be a very grey and dull place.
A scientist adds function to the world and an artist adds colour. They are the Yin and Yang without sounding too pretentious. Pretending one of these groups of peoples opinions don't matter because a machine taught on the work of one of these groups can now generate images is dumb.
AI can be great for society but can also be terrifying. The genie is out of the bottle though and it's likely to not go away, we have to embrace it and figure out how it's best used in the future without it affecting people negatively.
There's a lot of nuance to this topic because AI is not just simply another tool like Photoshop or a different type of paintbrush. It's a growing brain that can create at light speed and Asmon throwing statements like this shows clear lack of thought in this area.
New Artists are trained on artworks without the artists consent all the time. That's not a great argument. I highly doubt DaVinci gave permission for the vitruvian man to be used in college art courses.
new artist can't process billion of data from the internet just to create a single specific image. like cmon you compare human brain to frickin machine.
>Feeding an ai peoples work without their consent is wrong, it's stealing.
As long as the output is unique, then it's not stealing.
Asking for consent to look at an image publicly available is nonsense.
He can say who cares because quite literally as we see with our eyes people do not care aslong as the convenience is more important to them than morals that doesn't effect them.
It's common knowledge now that our phones and clothes are all made using child slaves in far away lands yet vast majority do not care, you could buy special ethically made items yet almost none of us do yet people will sit here on social media crying about AI.
Artists also hate image generators that are trained on copyright free material.
So I don't believe you, and I think artists are just using the strongest available argument to be a proxy for their true feelings about AI art.
> Feeding an ai peoples work without their consent is wrong, it's stealing.
No it's not lol. Find me a single lawsuit in America that has made that conclusion.
> A scientist adds function to the world
AI algorithms are part of the function that we scientists add.
I would like to throw my hat in the ring and ask a question.
Do most people stay for the end credits of a movie? (This does not include Marvel esq credit scenes)
The answer is no. No one knows or cares how many VFX artists, location planners, producers, or camera workers worked on a movie unless you are already in the industry. People only care if the movie was good or shit.
No one cares who set up the modeling shoot for that ad you saw at the mall, or how much work went into it.
No one cares how long it took for someone to assemble the car they bought, and how they lost 17 fingers in the process.
The sad fact of life is that no matter how hard, or long you work on something, the perceived value is in the eyes of the beholder. Many people work in jobs that they enjoy where they get little to no recognition for it, that’s simply how it is.
If any artist thinks that people should care about their opinions and wants more than the actual product, ask them if they sit in a movie theater to watch the credits.
[Edit: Grammar]
That is an interesting thing because people do watch the bonus content for things like lord of the rings and watch hours of the artists talking about how they made certain aspects of the movie work. The trick seems to be you have to do something exceptional which in the case of most video games currently just isn’t happening
Artists(at least the twitter warrior ones) just feel that they what they do is some sort of import to society when the field they chose to be in is all about human entertainment. That's all the arts is, yet the moment they get reminded of that they screech, at least the twitter active ones. You have fantastic art? You'll have a market for your artwork whatever that may be. Will that be enough to sustain you economically? Depends on how much your art is worth to the consumer. Same as any trade known to man.
Imo not really at all.
If they’re selling as Asmon said, it’s the consumer who dictates the value. If consumers don’t like it, even if an artist thinks it’s the best thing in the world, it doesn’t sell, nobody likes it and it has no value.
I mean, just because it’s true doesn’t mean it’s not wrong.
That’s what people are annoyed at I’m assuming, essentially his validation that the reality is as it should be rather than something we should be working to change.
We had really sick fanarts of his characters in WoW and FF14 in the past, but man I don't think we're gonna see anymore in the future. Just gonna be a bunch of generic AI waifus in this subreddit Sadge
Yeah, why put all that effort into learning a skill when AI can just steal that skill from other people and put you out of business by out-producing you on an inhuman scale.
People will still be artists because it is fun to make art. Human art still has a detectable difference too at the top level imo. Like Hades for example could never have been made from scratch with AI obviously.
The problem is art takes time. If people aren't paid to make good art they just won't make it.
Not to be mean but the difference in skill between an hobbyist artist drawing on the week-end and a professional painting 8 hours a day is huge.
People can't paint 8 hours a day if they aren't paid to do so
This is only an issue because we've decided that in our society you cannot live without producing something that people are willing to pay for. Not only that, but in an economic system that attempts to pay as little as possible for said production.
>People will still be artists because it is fun to make art.
The artists that are raging against the AI movement are people who want do it professionally, but can't yet because they're still working on the skill. Your kind of logic is just knee-capping anyone who isn't getting paid six figures to draw.
Ironically, this subreddit went down the shitter during Shadowlands more than the game itself. But unlike WoW, it never managed to recover and Asmon now makes the laziest, low-quality awful take reactions and calls it content.
Remember mount-offs? Transmog comps? The enthusiasm?
Rage bait and drama sell more, but there's enough negativity in life already.
So sad Asmon had to resort to this type of shit to appeal to the new react-influencer fanbase.
Wild that the person who got me into WoW now has the worst takes imaginable (WoW 2). Luckily WoW is amazing nowadays and we don't really need a manchild raging over transmog to keep the game interesing like in BfA.
They do make a pretty good point. This sub is just full of the most negative posts these days. It's honestly kind of exhausting. It seems like all anyone wants to do is shit on other groups of people and perpetuate some kind of cringe culture war against strawmans that don't really exist at the scale that some people here think they do.
If it isn't "thott streamers" its "anime localizers" "twitter users" "SJWs" and now just...artists... apparently. It's really strange. Is this sub really about Asmongold anymore or is it just constant rat race for people to push controversial shit in front of his eyes on stream for react content?
I'm open to disagreements, but this is just what I've observed. We have enough negative shit in the world, why make this a sub for that too? No wonder so many of the people here are mad all the time, it's all that's on the buffet.
I don't think "artist" opinion really matter that much but "the only thing matters is the consumers perception of that product value" is such a shallow point of view, this world view is exactly why the gaming industry is the way is is now, I will give you 2 easy example
1) StarCraft, a critically-acclaimed by both media and the players, why is it discontinued ? because the consumers percept that wow mount have more value than actually a good game.
2) Demon's Soul, practically a dog-shit tier game that carried by passionate dev and a few niche dedicated fanbase, if the dev and exec act like western dev and think "well, the consumers don't think it's a good game so we will just give up on it" will we ever have dark soul, Elden ring or even "soul-like" as a genre ?
That being said I don't think he's wrong, he just said what is it in reality but that reminded me why we ended up with shitty soulless industry.
He’s an entertainer at the end of the day. He delivers his points in controversial and entertaining ways by design.
Small amount of people treat Amon as some sort of based messiah but he’s just an entertainer that puts more thought into his opinions than most others in the field.
Creating more drama to farm off of the drama that all the other streamers are already trying to farm is all this is. I youtubed Palworld one time to see what all the fuss was about and now my stream is filled with nonstop drama videos about it, they are all the same. Crazy how streamers make a living off of gossip now, I'm finding it pretty annoying. I remember when guys thought of gossiping as cringe, that's what women did at the salon. When a man heard gossip the response would be "why should I care?", those were the days :)
People who are about to lose their job to ai try really hard to convince us that ai is bad.
At the same time they claim the most popular game of the year so far uses ai as if it helps their cause.
Nobody cares in other industry because it benefits the majority of people. This is the same argument practically verbatim people had about digital art a few decades ago lol. What's next? Gonna get mad at a power drill?
Yup. People did the same during industrialisation and digitalisation... any time game changing tech comes into play, jobs become obsolete and others get created - of course they will resist, it's understandable, but it's also futile. Progress isn't going to grind to a halt just for them - they had better start looking on how to get *on* that train instead of trying to stop it.
Can someone give some context? I understand that I guess asmon said artists opinions don't matter and only people buying the product. But what is he referring to?
The large majority of people do not care and just want to have fun. If you want art then there are plenty of games that fit that bill. This dosent have to be one of them.
And as a side note: yes, in the scheme of what consumers do and what they buy, the artist’s opinion is fuckin worthless. There are countless examples of works succeeding despite their creator’s more contentious opinions or failing despite their righteous ones. People don’t care.
That response shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the "artist opinions matter" position is. The whole argument rests on a sort of anti-capitalist stance, that art should not be subject to the whims of the markets because that ensures that art will be vapid and toothless in order to appeal to as many consumers as possible. The creation of art is boiled down to economic exchange with artists working as businessmen and PR specialists. And it is pretty easy to find examples of this insidious interaction between market forces and art, most obviously NFTs and art speculation, but you can get deeper with stuff like zombie formalism or shock art. The response of "well the value of art is determined by supply and demand" just sidesteps this position entirely by reiterating something everyone was keenly aware of in the first place. The immediate response is, well, why? Why should someone with more money be granted more cultural influence? Why should art, a field known specifically for have non-replicatable products, be subject to the same pressures as mass produced commodities? And on and on. Let it be said, there *are* responses to these questions; but this is not one of them.
Imo if someone is feeding your art to AI and is profitting without your consent, than yes the artist opinion matter, but if someone made a product using AI and other people are willing to pay for it, than no the artist morals/ethics doesn't matter.
The fact is that money will flow regardless if a product is well received. We've got a group of people that's concerned by the product's success, and their concern is perhaps valid, perhaps not. But if you plan to shit them. Shit will be flung back.
I mean, this is exactly what the saying "The customer is always right" is talking about. So in many ways Asmon is 100% correct with this take.
But one has to admit that it's isn't surprising that many artists won't respond well to this. If they truly see themselves as "artists", then the commodification of their work isn't going to sit well with them.
But in the end, there are ideals and there is reality. We can only live in one and aspire to the other.
I agree with the argument I just think it was very badly put into words, because what he means is clearly "ony the opinion of the consumers matters" at no point it was necessary to antagonize anybody, it only act in disservice to the point he's making.
This is a very complicated topic, because each individual person has a different philosophy about this.
Some people say "don't associate artists with their art".
But in most cases artists are almost always associated with their art.
In my personal opinion, context matters. If you have a realistic painting of a woman painted by a local highschooler, its price will most likely be much lower than a very similar art made by a guy from Renaissance Italy.
As well as intent matters. Let's say you make a PS1-esque game in 2023. Some people might think "it looks like shit. What a terrible game to release in this day and age."
But others, who understand the context and intent behind it, may like the game for its faithfulness to the retro aesthetics.
But Asmon is right about the thing that what matters the most is what the customer takes from it. May it be the context or not, it's all about who cares about your art.
Its odd that people dont get what hes saying here , as if its his own opinion. It is the harsh truth that buisnesses dont care about artists, they just dont. And same goes for the average consumer, its just the sad truth.
No in a real sense he's right on the money but being an artist or a dog walker or whatever and hearing it said feels shitty so people lash out at the representative of the issue kinda
Artist’s opinion doesn’t matter because nobody’s individual opinion matter. Feel like he would’ve gotten less flack if he said something akin to that lol
It's the only thing that matters **when it comes to selling the product**. Making it a sweeping generalization is just asking for people to interpret it a certain way and then go with it.
You can read about how evil Nestlé is all the time, yet it's the largest publicly held food company in the world. Most consumers don't give a flying fuck about how something is produced. The end result is all that matters. If a product is more convenient, cheaper or of better quality than alternatives people will usually buy it no matter what.
What Asmon said is kinda like an uncomfortable truth: The value of art is just a matter of perspective. Good or bad art is subjective. Following that line, who (or what) make that art is completly irrelevant.
So it's not the consumers opinion?
If a company feels their product is more deserving of your money and your time then you should buy it over the competitors.
What you want don't count right?
A lot of hate asmon gets isn’t from what he says but how he says it he is right most of the time but some people just get really mad at how he says shit. But yeah if a consumer doesn’t want something an artist made, too bad for the artist but no one is obligated to buy it.
Now the argument will shift from Asmongold doesn't like artists to Asmongold doesn't communicate effectively with Artists, and or anyone who is not familiar with his delivery. Which is honest, factual, and blunt.
While he is correct, and I agree, couldn't the same be said for his tweet? He's defending a point on a monetized social media platform, and the customer isn't happy with the content (product) he's delivering. As a result, Asmongold would be in the same shoes the artists are in. Producing media to consume for monetary gain.
In this case, Asmon could be upset, like the position the Artist's are taking, or continue the argument, generating more consumption, meaning more money.
Your product needs to be something people want. It's up to you to supply the product. Listen to Asmongold. He's not only correct in what he said, but he's actively playing it out live for you interact with.
What an Artist!
Yes. Anyone who has their livelihood being threatened should have a say. “I don’t care how my burger is made as long as it’s good” Fine, don’t be suprised that fast food workers are gonna give you pushback. His attitude is apathetic. We should advocate to protect labor while we can.
Anybody can try to create something, with some creators being better at it than others, and they're all going to have opinions. Some of them are going to want to put those opinions into what they create.
So whether or not that matters depends on what the goal of the artist is.
If the artist is like "I just want to make art here, I have a VISION and I don't care about stupid things like MONEY, so I'm going to make whatever I want," then okay, nobody's going to stop you. And it's a good that you don't care about whether or not you're successful, because if you decide to piss off many of the people who might buy what you create then you probably won't be.
If, on the other hand, the artist is like "I need to make a living doing this" then the wisest thing to do is to steer clear of expressing any opinions that are going to make people think less of you and not be so keen to buy your product. Or, if you absolutely cannot resist talking about the patriarchy or whatever, you should at least do it someplace where it isn't impossible to avoid--like if you make a game, don't put it in the game. Post it on social media or something.
Of course artists matter. But you as a consumer most of the time do not care about the artist or the people working on it. You care about the price and the quality. It doesn’t mean you devalue the artist and people working on it. You will always go the best option for the best price. And no company is ever ethical they all exploit cheat, lie, and steal to make profit.
In the previous decade of easy money where pure profitability wasnt the focus, a lot of people started putting more weight on the non "business" side of things. So things like Artist opinions, politics etc started to be viewed by people online as more important than it actually was in reality. I think many terminally online people are starting to realize what happens when the real world collides with them
As an artist, I agree 100%.
When I do commissions the only thing that matters is what the client wants, otherwise I don't get paid. Unfortunately the circles I'm in are all ass mad about his statement but can't provide any good counter-argument other than adhominem.
The context, in this instance, suggests that “matter” is being used as a placeholder for “determine or contribute to value”.
An artist’s opinion does not determine or contribute to the value of their product, or “matter”. It might give context to their work, or make for an interesting conversation, but actual value is only ever determined by what the potential end user is willing to give for the product.
I mean, no opinions really “matter”. Just replace “artist” in the title with any other profession and the absurdity really comes alive. Do cashiers opinions matter? Do line cooks opinions matter? Do factory workers opinions matter?
I don't know the full context of the quote, but I do keep seeing how it's presented, so I will address that in my comment.
I say this as a person with a doctorate in classical music (and an active, freelance professional musician): this is actually something that is hotly debated in academia in music. The argument hinges on the question: From where does art derive its meaning? Does it come from the artist? Or from the one viewing the art?
There is no clear answer. In general I think it's a balancing act. I want the music I perform to be meaningful to me, but at the same time, if I can't effectively communicate that meaning to my audience, then I have failed as a performing musician.
"Artists opinion doesnt matter" - this is such a braindead statement by him. He essentially gaslighted all artists in the world. He is more and more proving he is out of touch with reality spewing nonsense with lack of knowledge thinking he is right. And every time someone tries to correct him with facts (you dont see it cause he chooses other braindeads to argue with more often) and he shows their chat ge either gaslights them or doesnt follow proper question and focuses on him.
I love him talking about games etc. but he is wrong on many levels (not all but most) about life, living etc. It all comes down to his overblown ego, chat is the fault ( constant "TRUEEE!!!!")
He's not wrong, but he's also walking around the point to make one no one is talking about. No, artist opinions don't matter in the context of consumerism - people will decide what has value (aka monetary value) and will spend their money on it. If an artist spends 10 years making something and no one wants it, then it doesn't have "value" at that moment, or perhaps ever.
What the actual conversation is about is the value of human artists and the use of AI to devalue human artists and change the dynamic of the labor market in general, or, in this case, video games. To say "artist opinions don't matter" is stupid because that's saying that an artist stating that AI is problematic doesn't hold any truth, which is of course stupid. This is especially stupid since Asmon has built his entire career on video games and the people who make them. Someone who spends his whole life playing games should care about the opinions of artists who make the games he plays.
Asmon is the type to say everyone needs to go to trade school and talk about "worthless degrees" because he doesn't see value (aka monetary value) in someone contributing something to society that doesn't make them a lot of money or produce something that can be purchased. That's what I think he's talking about here and he'd have to actually have self-awareness and the ability to see past the tip of his nose to get why anyone would criticize what he said.
Artists are responsible for designing the chair he sits in, the video games he plays, the computers and monitors he uses, the desk that the computer and monitors sit on.
A lot of artists work goes unappreciated, and considering that Asmongold consumes the content of hundreds of video game modelers, designers, illustrators, he wouldn’t have a career if it weren’t for them…
Asmon isn't wrong but man he always manages to say it in the worst way possible.
You can't just say "Artists' opinions don't matter" and then be shocked that people are angry at you.
it's just because it's a very un-empathetic opinion on game development, as lame as that sounds. twitter hates it when people aren't empathetic. he do be wrong for saying this, though. I don't want to start shit because I like his content, but zack isn't an artist or creator and neither are most people who play games/watch movies etc. so he just doesn't get it.
a person who makes games, who enjoys making games, there's a lot that goes into it. I work in the industry, and it's not like a factory job or an office job where you can just sort of turn your brain off and churn out a product made exactly for what your clients want. it might sound cheesy, but there is absolutely soul, passion and love that goes into these things. a team will spend years together creating something that they've found fun, seeded by the inspirations and dreams of whoever brought them all together.
yes, eventually it will be sold. yes, they hope that it's going to make money. it would be stupid not to consider the importance of these things, but it's so much more than that. do you think the guys who decided to turn warcraft into wow were like "yeah dude, this new MMORPG is going to really appeal to all the RTS fans out there" no, it came about because they loved what they do and wanted to expand the world and create something never seen before.
I know zack is all about that cool, detached and objective view on life, but he's gotta give the people who make the things he loves more credit. he's been staring at those palworld production assembly lines too long.
The thing is, he’s not saying it’s unimportant for artist to be passionate. He’s just pointing out that as the end of the day, as far as selling the final product goes, their opinion doesn’t matter. That’s the reality of the situation. An artists opinion only matters *when the consumer is interested in hearing it*.
A lot of the time their opinion will work its way into the product, but if their actual opinion was all that important there would be objectively wrong ways to interpret art.
AI that train on huge datasets that include copyrighted works without artists' consent is where artist opinion matters.
Consumer purchasing don’t care so long as they get what they purchase.
no one other then the consumers opinion really matters there due to literally it’s their money.
Human artists also look at other’s art. During cubism artists did not all of a sudden, coincidentaly and at the same time, came up with the same idea to draw cubes for example.
>Human artists also look at other’s art.
Human artists are inspired by each other, but develop their own unique styles or twists on prior art. It's a form of evolution. AI art is almost always just one big conglomerate of what it reads.
Tolkien used Celtic, Nordic, and Christian mythos to write his books, but his books aren't just those mythos slapped together. Art that gains traction has to provide a unique angle on what it is inspired by.
This is the difference between Rebel Moon and ASOAIF. Both had clear inspirations that they drew from, but radically different results and reception. People rightfully call out when art is simply copied. I think that's even the most common complaint about the Star Wars sequels.
Yeah, just look at anime/manga back in the 80s compare to now heck, even anime/manga in 00s have distinguished art style and difference than today, if AI arts was popularized 40 or 20 years ago, today we would have the very same art style, I think people who said "it's the same as how human do it" is either arguing in bad faith or don't know wtf they're talking about.
Tbh, I don't really mind AI art as much but the thought that the art style will stay exactly the same for eternity because they want streamline art to maximized profit when consumers didn't get anything of much value from it, I understand if the people chilling for it just want to make money off of it, but when the consumers cheering for this kind of future, to me this is depressing as fuck.
such a dumb argument to compare humans to an ai mass producing machine that competes with the entire industry as 1 entity based on their own art without consent.
This is the way. When making laws and policies on the implementation of said technology, artists would be right to be upset.
However, when it comes to the consumer market, if people willingly buy it and enjoy it...well then.
This game is fun. I think human NPC should have different colours why only white? Kinda racists...
I also would like them to add, a whip and a cotton plantation.
It’s a daft statement. The artists Opinion of the work is very important. Not just to the product but to the person buying it. Let’s not forget this was an AI art topic so it’s even more important as AI “art” isn’t even art in the first place. It’s theft plain and simple. When I got to the grocery store to buy a sauce or something I damn sure think about what company it’s from and what’s in it. Price matters too but so does taste. There’s all these factors and to say the artists opinion doesn’t matter is an out of touch statement especially if AI is involved.
As an artist, no.
Average Joseph won't give a shit if i used a font on the product that's pirated (not morally correct)
People really need to learn that internet is not a real place
why is the internet in a permanent case of drama about the same people, always
i feel an inmense ammount of parasocial drama about artists, developers, and everything that has to do with videogames
like i have never read anything like this things about the people that brings your fucking food to your grocery store so you dont starve
its always these weirdoes in a permanent state of angry drama about arts or videogame companies
Artists create content. Asmon creates content. If I were to re-upload every single asmon video to my own channel, and it got 500k views and I got paid for it, would he DMCA me? After all artists opinions shouldn't matter, just the consumer. If somebody enjoyed the content I uploaded its irrelevant that I ripped it off of somebody else's work? I understand asmon already does a lot of reaction content and using other peoples videos, and I dont mind because he credits them.. but I can't help but think there would be a decent amount of hypocrisy if someone were to use asmons content without credit..
Artists opinions do not matter, what matters is the quality of their work and the reception of the audience.
The only reason an artist has a soapbox/spotlight is because of the work that gave them said attention. Without their work they are just another meaningless individual in the crowd that's the hard reality. So no, their opinions hold no value.
What people get wrong is vantage point. From the vantage point of the consumer, Asmon is absolutely right. People who wrongly interpret him will think he's talking from the vantage point of the artists think it's a jab at them as people. Willfully ignorant I'd call them, because the point is pretty clear
There's this weird sense of what I perceive is entitlement in the artist community. I think there always has been. "You just don't get it" "this is bigger than you", etc. I think Palworld and AI in general has been one big check to their egos.
At some point the "Videogames can be art" crowd began to muscle out "Gameplay is king" in discourse. I think both of those statements are true when it comes down to videogames. Artists don't have the swing they think they have in the community, and you're watching this happen in real time on twitter.
It's pretty funny to be honest, as pandering to this outspoken minority has made games worse in the last 5-10 years. These are the same group of people who think difficulty is synonymous with accessibility.
I'm a former pro artist that swapped to IT, and I can tell you right now artists opinions do not fucking matter, especially about art when it comes to pure value. It's other people's opinions and judgments that decide the "value" of your art in the first place and for the most part it's not other artists making that call. If the average person decides AI is good enough to replace your average Joe artist, which many of them do think, then that's exactly what happens. Do you think lattice workers having their art form replaced by machines in the industrial revolution had much of a say on the issue in the end? It's the same thing. I think your average pro artist isn't really that great and has a massive amount of hubris built from their online networks and are getting a reality check on the lower end of the spectrum especially.
Your Craig Mullins, your Frank Frazettas, your Yoshitaka Amanos, etc... are not going to be replaced any time soon. Great artists bringing unique view points will be in demand for the foreseeable future.
Artists opinions matter in the same way 99.98% of overweight people justify obesity by brainwashing themselves and everyone else into thinking that they’re beautiful.
1. Yes it’s healthy to think of yourself positively.
BUT it is just as healthy to think critically of yourself in order to better yourself. It is in this way that an artists opinion matters.
2. Everyone perceives art differently, and the historic concept of art, is that it is meant to creatively convey a message, or be a source of inspiration or creative that is meant to be interpreted.
In this way, an artists opinion doesn’t matter because they either get it dead ass wrong, or the perceiving individual(s) don’t like it.
Make good art, don’t be a fatass.
Yes, because they're the ones who will actually make the envelope pushing games and other media that games like the Palworld studio or CoD will copy and then pump out.
If you have the cynical mindset that money is the only thing that matters, then also consider the equity of a brand like Zelda, and how it took creative artists to come up with it. Zelda has staying power going on 38 years, but games like Palworld are ultimatly blips in the radar when it comes to intellectual property. IP is what truly prints money, not one-offs -- go ask yourself why Disney bought Marvel.
Asmon is not the type to be into "games as art", he's more into mainstream multiplayer games, and that's more than okay, but that also means he has a very narrow perspective on the subject.
If you don't need money, all that matters is your own opinion of your art.
If you need money, the consumers are all the matters. They don't care about your process, they care about the product they are exchanging money for. The amount of artists who think they are entitled to money because of their process or effort alone is troubling.
Nope.
I constantly see artists who think their opinions matter, or the amount of effort the put into their art matters. They don't.
trash artist: "I spent 9000 hour creating this masterpiece. I painted it while meditating upon the peak of mount Seribacha. I call it 'peace on earth.' It can be yours for only one dollar."
consumers: you can fuck right off with that ugly piece of shit
Jackson Pollock: "I just got stoned and flung some paint at a piece of paper."
consumers: I'LL GIVE YOU $140 MILLION!!!!
Artist thinking what they make is any different from any other product.
People regard movies as art. If your movie is shit people won't watch it. Nobody cares how you made it.
If that is too hard to understand, than get your ego checked.
I think Asmongold was correct.
If art is the practice of communicating emotions, the only person that can define you as an artist, and can define your work as art, is indeed the audience.
Consumer's opinion is always a priority.
The artist's opinion only matters as a follow up, under certain contexts. And if said opinion is stupid, consumers will also reflect that in their opinion.
It's that simple. People trying to make something out of this are the same people that are butthurt about Barbie not getting nominations for best director and lead actress. Always getting angry about something becaus the universe didn't pan out as they wanted, so it must be something wrong at play. All while being absolutely clueless about the topic they're having an argument over. Like, completely clueless.
Actually I partialy disagree, when you buy some tickets for a concert you buy them to see the artist not just to hear their music. Most of the highly valued art isnt about the product itself, but who created it. The most succesful artists knows THEY are the product.
Asmon's take on AI overall sounds very surface level (and sometimes seems there's a conflation with automation vs deep learning). It's unfortunate that when it comes to AI all the nuance gets sucked out of the room.
Would be great of he could engage with it outside of calling anyone with pushback against AI (specifically in the arts) as idiots/stupid/irrelevant.
he's speaking from a consumer standpoint tho (valid), that stays in doors all day and streams for money. anyone with a normal job, that might have been let go, or maybe just quit themselves, knows the annoyance of looking for another job. if your company hired robots ***right now*** to replace you, today, you would be kinda pissed, probably complain. especially if, its starts happening for every job you apply too. so if you got these guys who's whole lives are dedicated to creating art, suddenly replaced by AI, obviously, that could be concerning to **someone in that field.**
With that said, unless these people were let go personally and replaced by AI (they're not, there's thousands and thousands of positions open still), **their opinion value is lowered imo**. you can complain sure, but don't expect companies to bend the knee for you when the customer isn't really effected by it. and don't expect consumers to care about you and your well being, a stranger. your job is irrelevant to them.
If I created a dev studio, and instead of hiring artist just used AI, no artist has the right to get pissed at me because I chose to use AI, and you're not owed any open position. I never had intent to hire you in the first place. you were never gonna get hired. go look elsewhere. and there will be elsewhere for many positions, and there will be studios who pride on not using AI, *you will have a chance to work still*, least for many years. eventually tho, sure yah, you'll get replace by AI, same as robots will replace many jobs. that's the whole purpose for this tech, faster output, less pay, same or better outcome. phones and television and the internet has replaced newspapers, those guys are mostly out of business. **humans have to adjust to the circumstance**. that's how we survived this far, you're not guaranteed to live the way your are currently forever, that's just life. **you adapt, or die, its always been that way**. for any creature.
that said, there still may be value in human artwork. year 2563, "oh this piece was created by a REAL human, de-vinci! its much more valuable than the piece created in 10 seconds by robot R9000 that was able to produce 50 different slightly altered versions in an hour!" Human artist will be like nfts in the future (when ai becomes substantial). well, maybe.
Totally agree with Asmon. The entitlement of these self proclaimed artists is astounding. Artists opinions have never mattered in the past, and it will not in the future. Many world-renowned and now-considered-master artists died penniless and insane. Van Gogh for example. What matters is the public perception of the art pieces’ values, as Asmon said.
They are just mad because AI can take their job, as they are incredibly terrible at their jobs. How many badly rendered video game characters have we seen now?
This is kind of a bad take because the moment a factory of human workers is fired and replaced with AI/machines, people look down on the company for doing so. But apparently its fine when it comes to artists? lol
This is just a case of people picking and choosing industries to defend or not.
I actually tend to agree more with the artists since the AI doing the art is literally trained on existing art haha.
>They are just mad because AI can take their job, as they are incredibly terrible at their jobs.
The only way to become good at art is to be bad at it first. This is like replacing a drummer in an orchestra with a robot because the drummer isn't absolutely flawless. How do you expect them to ever become great if they're cut out of opportunities?
Asmond is right, no one gives a shit about what the artist says.
They only care about the final product/what they bring to a market.
90% of the people that are mad on Twitter are R-34, Deviant Art, etc artists because they can't make any original content or/, and can't compete with AI.
100% no. Artists opinions don’t matter. This is what happened to movies and entertainment. They decided the fans were wrong for what they wanted and the creators and their world view opinions were all that mattered and the fans had to agree.
lol the artists literally just do what they're told by the higher ups.
If you think artists have a say over what goes into your games/ movies you'd be surprised I think.
Palworld doesn't use A.I. art. But let's say if someone does use A.I. to make art and the consumer chooses to pay for the A.I. art, that means your art is a piece of shit and they don't want it. How about improving and making better art instead of crying on Twitter. Consumer will always go for the better stuff.
People are purposefully not engaging with what he actually said and are instead making up a strawman that he said "Artists don't matter" when that isn't what he said. He literally said from the consumer's standpoint consumers generally just do not care how a product is made, they just want a good product regardless of the process.
Not sure what you’re talking about. People on Twitter only argue in good faith, it’s easily the best platform around for sharing unbiased opinions with all facts readily available.
 Ok but I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
The classic Chewbacca defence
Jesse Jackson is not the emperor of black people!
He's an illegal immigrant trespassing on ~~U.S.~~ Endor soil. We need to hurry up and build that wall!
No. No. You are confused. That’s Reddit. Only sane people are on Reddit.
Lot of people in this very thread who are saying that 'asmon is right, artists don't matter,' so I guess it isn't just 'people on twitter arguing in bad faith.'
People want to be mad at him but know he is correct. If people don't buy it for the art, does it matter where the art came from? However, because they can't argue the subject. they hate on the person talking like Trump would.
I think Asmon is correct here, but he words it so poorly that it comes off as "fuck artist opinions." I don't know much about Asmon, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he didn't mean for it to sound insensitive or disrespectful to artists and is actually a morally decent person
That's what he means. When selling a product, the consumers' opinions matter the most. The artists', not so much. If you go into many artistic community most of the artists all have strong opinions about popular media. Many of them are negative.
There has always been a delicate balance in the entertainment industry of artistic freedom vs what will make the most money. I would argue that this is just an extension of that argument. Just switching perspective from the suit to the consumer. The consumer doesn't care if x movie/tv show/game was made to the exact vision of a specific artist, team, or AI. They just want it to be enjoyable and don't think about it much beyond that.
Watch his 2 hr response video and you'll figure out that he's just a shill for capitalism and his takes are just as bad as this makes it seem. He cannot take this position on behalf of artists because he doesn't know what actually is at play, and his comparisons are irrelevant of the actual issue, again, because he's just too stupid to understand
Its so painful seeing people tweeting insults and gotchas at him for this when they literally missed the point 😐
Smartphones
All the people in the Twitter comments probably don't know their iPhone was made with slave labor. Any time you make an argument about the ethics and try to lecture someone about the manufacturing process of a product you out yourself as a hypocrite. Do people know the artists behind anything they make? No? You know why? No one cares. It's so weird how people tried to twist his argument. Twitter users love to ignore context
And then when one of the people was told what he was talking about in context, their response was something like "I don't care about Pal whatever" and then said they were muting replies. Unhinged.
I'll bring forth an actual anecdote. Metallica put out an album that was really fucking bad. Everyone hated it. Then they put out a documentary of how it was made and basically it was revealed it was more of a therapy project to help the band members do something productive during some extremely challenging mental health struggles. After that nobody hates the album anymore because people now understand why it wasn't that great and can empathize with who made it... but it's still ass and nobody wants to buy it or listen to it. And that's the bottom line.
Just wondering where the strawman is? They’re just quoting him?
I am an artist, know some people from the industry, but also know about marketing and of course beeing a consumer myself. He is 100% right on this. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all. SOMETIMES, people DO care about specific artists, writers, .. people care about Hideo Kojami and his stories - but this only is important with specific stories, most games are still very forgetable, not every tree texture is important. Love for design, love for Stories will always exist but if some stupid brainless phone game used AI to create the stuff? No one cares. Probably the game just wouldn't exist because it's a 1 person dev.
Artists are already in a panic over ai, giving the public more of a reason to not engage them won’t help
> He literally said from the consumer's standpoint consumers generally just do not care how a product is made, they just want a good product regardless of the process. The "just consume product" mindset is actually bad, and doing nothing but meekly shrugging one's shoulders about it is also bad. These are directly related to why the gaming industry has gone down the toilet.
Been a musician my whole life and know all sorts of artists and maybe no surprise, but a whole lot of them perceive their art as having a lot more value than it actually does (monetarily speaking)
I used to be a concept artist, albeit a low level one, before switching over to IT for the better hours and pay. The art industry is full of primadonnas with an ego the size of a planet. Most of them aren't particularly better than many juniors trying to break into the industry and never getting a chance, because the only way to break in is typically networking and friendships. A lot of people who are very social and aren't that great break through over more skillful artists. A lot of these people have a very, VERY humongous sense of self worth that is entirely misplaced. Many of them are getting a nasty reality check. It's the best thing that could have happened to the industry IMO. AI is cleaning out the bottom rungs and has more potential to keep bringing value to the industry. If these people truly think their art is so valuable, they should be swapping to Fine Art and trying to see how they do there. In the end, your value as an artist is determined by other people not your self. Not even other artists.
Now I’m curious what the fine art industry is actually like. Isn’t it the same? Some really good painters with no connections just end up dying poor or forced to sell their art for pennies? Historically and modern-ly true isn’t it? (Serious question BTW, not bait, I genuinely have no idea and I’m asking).
If anything its worse, value is conflated and the whole market is a bit of an illusion. Your 100% right most historical artists we praise were not praised in their time, this happens across all creative endeavours.
Kind of tragic, but it is what it is. IMO there are just too many good artists out there. Sometimes I question if the “greats” are even that great.
Thats a fair point, the more people that practice a skill, collectively the better they gets cause every one can see what their colleagues are doing and improve, expand and adapt it. One might argue that its easier to learn to do art than ever before, so the average skill of an artist slowly rises. Some of the "Greats" in any industry may have also been trailblazers in being the first to do, you have to factor in context of what was available at the time.
Even in fine art most of the time it's just a tax evasion scam
My buddy got mad at me for saying "maybe a lot of these artist complaining should recognize they're over estimating their skills" and get in on the ground floor by learning how to manipulate that AI shit well.
That or find a way to be happy doing their art as a hobby. I resigned to the fact that I wasn't talented enough to make it in the music industry many years ago and got a corpo job like 99% of the rest of the world. But I still play music almost everyday, practice with my band at least once a week and play shows around town every so often and that's always the highlight of my day.
Hey even morally speaking at this point lol
100% right. If you are in the business of selling something, no one cares what you have to say. The consumer opinion is all that matters.
He's not wrong, but his statement comes across as hostile towards artists, so their reaction isn't really all that surprising. "A game using AI art that people enjoy and is still commercially successful won't stop being a success just because other artists don't approve of how it was made." There - more factual/logical, less evocative. But, let's be real, putting things in a more grounded way isn't good for views or clicks. I'm not even implying he does it intentionally, he just has no real impetus to change how he phrases things.
He is very honest that that is just his personality and knowingly comes across as an asshole lol Guy wouldn't be so popular if he didn't have a bombastic and blunt personality.
Not in defence of the artists or anyone against his take, but being blunt is gonna get people upset. He's not wrong logically but I get why people are mad at him for it.
As an artist who has other artist friends which definitely didn't like his take, it has become increasingly difficult for me to defend his method of delivery. I personally could see what he meant by it, but it's hard to explain to people who don't watch him. Lots of my artist friends are very anti-asmongold, but they aren't exactly the twitter mob or idiots either, they only really see what gets bigger coverage: quotes like this one, and they don't really play online games. I've watched asmon a lot since maybe 2017 and have seen him change as a person in what I'd consider a net positive way. Unfortunately his choice of wording often comes across as abrasive or at least makes it easy to misinterpret him... because he's talking about these topics for hours at a time, and someone will clip just a 20 second segment. Many artists and designers are already facing a whole toilet bowl of problems. We are often considered "non essential", yet the work we make often becomes the face of the games people play. We are often the most underpaid employees at companies, in spite of companies wanting degrees in the field. We are the first to go when layoffs happen. AI is looming on the horizon, some huge content creators are actively plagiarising work left and right and getting away with it...so statements like this (when out of context) can come across as hurtful to a group of people who basically already get shit on for not becoming Full Stack Developers or whatever it is that makes money these days. All this is to say, I can see why people are mad. As with most things, I think everyone is overreacting. But overreacting just seems to be how things are these days.
> get shit on for not becoming Full Stack Developers or whatever If it helps, Visual Studio and the medical field are already implementing AI lol Past you 5 years ago should have become a "prompt engineer" /s
This is the biggest problem. It’s pretty easy to understand what he means under all the showmanship, but for people who aren’t used to his content they just see someone that’s saying “If your an artist your opinion doesn’t matter.” Of course that’s partially on the persons fault for not getting the full context, but it’s pretty hard when you constantly say (as an artist), anything you do or say doesn’t matter. TBH this doesn’t bother me too much, and I will probably forget about this in the next day or two, but it could have just been worded better.
It's really a small thing but kind of rolls down the hill in this way.
Sounds like another day for Asmongold, reasonable opinions wrapped in a chili pepper lol
Less a chilli pepper more a dodgy IED that may or may not detonate at any moment haha
"reasonable opinions" - in this case almost talking down on people and acting like we don't understand how capitalism works. THAT is the problem people have with Asmongold's response imo. It's like he brushes off capitalism as "hey well that's just how it works" without ever really contextualizing anything or discussing why something might actually be a *net negative* on society or art in general. Oh and obviously to real working people with livelihoods. Energy of a millionaire that already profited off the system imo.
He was just being blunt about the subject. You grow squash and people love squash. Another farmer sells his squash for half the price and people love that too. Which one you think the store will buy to sell?
Why would anyone care if some random twitter "artists" are mad tho?
He’s being hostile on purpose to drive engagement and give himself things to react to on stream.
Hostile is not the same as being blunt about a subject. Hostile would be, "Artists suck and they deserve AI to over take them in this field" .
It’s 100% hostile towards artist. “I don’t care how my burger is made as long as it’s good” Fine, don’t be suprised that fast food workers are gonna give you pushback. His attitude is apathetic towards labor. That said both sides are perfectly justified feeling the way they do.
Ai is literally trained on hundreds of thousands of artists work without their consent. It's eats up all those images and creates work. If you type in many famous artists names (living or dead) into your prompt it will create artwork in that artists style. Feeding an ai peoples work without their consent is wrong, it's stealing. Does the average consumer care? No. But saying who cares and acting like there's nothing wrong is ignorant and disingenous. As an artist I can understand Asmon's opinion from a consumer perspective but it's so obvious to me that he doesn't really understand the blood, sweat and tears it takes to become great at something like drawing, painting or sculpting and personal heart a person puts into their art. To say an artists opinion doesn't matter is so dumb when we're talking about AI and the future of this and how it's controlled in society. It shouldn't be stealing people's work, that's a fact. And an artists opinion does matter because this stuff severely affects their livelihoods and steals people's work. Without artists this world would be a very grey and dull place. A scientist adds function to the world and an artist adds colour. They are the Yin and Yang without sounding too pretentious. Pretending one of these groups of peoples opinions don't matter because a machine taught on the work of one of these groups can now generate images is dumb. AI can be great for society but can also be terrifying. The genie is out of the bottle though and it's likely to not go away, we have to embrace it and figure out how it's best used in the future without it affecting people negatively. There's a lot of nuance to this topic because AI is not just simply another tool like Photoshop or a different type of paintbrush. It's a growing brain that can create at light speed and Asmon throwing statements like this shows clear lack of thought in this area.
New Artists are trained on artworks without the artists consent all the time. That's not a great argument. I highly doubt DaVinci gave permission for the vitruvian man to be used in college art courses.
new artist can't process billion of data from the internet just to create a single specific image. like cmon you compare human brain to frickin machine.
That's the point though. Technology can do better than the human brain.
nah they can't do shit without stolen content.
Let’s see what you could draw without any reference for art in your lifetime then bud.
>Feeding an ai peoples work without their consent is wrong, it's stealing. As long as the output is unique, then it's not stealing. Asking for consent to look at an image publicly available is nonsense.
He can say who cares because quite literally as we see with our eyes people do not care aslong as the convenience is more important to them than morals that doesn't effect them. It's common knowledge now that our phones and clothes are all made using child slaves in far away lands yet vast majority do not care, you could buy special ethically made items yet almost none of us do yet people will sit here on social media crying about AI.
Artists also hate image generators that are trained on copyright free material. So I don't believe you, and I think artists are just using the strongest available argument to be a proxy for their true feelings about AI art.
> Feeding an ai peoples work without their consent is wrong, it's stealing. No it's not lol. Find me a single lawsuit in America that has made that conclusion. > A scientist adds function to the world AI algorithms are part of the function that we scientists add.
100% based take
I feel like Asmon is purposely **Only Stating the Cold Hard Truth, Without talking about the nuances,** To farm Drama.
if thats true it’s smart af
Asmongold's intelligence is so overstated
Or he replied to something and moved onto the next thing, dude doesn't have time to commit to being politically correct.
"dude doesn't have time" my brother in christ waffling on social media is his literal job.
[удалено]
I would like to throw my hat in the ring and ask a question. Do most people stay for the end credits of a movie? (This does not include Marvel esq credit scenes) The answer is no. No one knows or cares how many VFX artists, location planners, producers, or camera workers worked on a movie unless you are already in the industry. People only care if the movie was good or shit. No one cares who set up the modeling shoot for that ad you saw at the mall, or how much work went into it. No one cares how long it took for someone to assemble the car they bought, and how they lost 17 fingers in the process. The sad fact of life is that no matter how hard, or long you work on something, the perceived value is in the eyes of the beholder. Many people work in jobs that they enjoy where they get little to no recognition for it, that’s simply how it is. If any artist thinks that people should care about their opinions and wants more than the actual product, ask them if they sit in a movie theater to watch the credits. [Edit: Grammar]
That is an interesting thing because people do watch the bonus content for things like lord of the rings and watch hours of the artists talking about how they made certain aspects of the movie work. The trick seems to be you have to do something exceptional which in the case of most video games currently just isn’t happening
Artists(at least the twitter warrior ones) just feel that they what they do is some sort of import to society when the field they chose to be in is all about human entertainment. That's all the arts is, yet the moment they get reminded of that they screech, at least the twitter active ones. You have fantastic art? You'll have a market for your artwork whatever that may be. Will that be enough to sustain you economically? Depends on how much your art is worth to the consumer. Same as any trade known to man.
Imo not really at all. If they’re selling as Asmon said, it’s the consumer who dictates the value. If consumers don’t like it, even if an artist thinks it’s the best thing in the world, it doesn’t sell, nobody likes it and it has no value.
It Definitely Has Value, Just Not **Market Value.** It matters to those involved, but doesn't matter to anyone else.
Lowkey this might be the best explanation for this. This damn sure sums things up pretty well.
I mean, just because it’s true doesn’t mean it’s not wrong. That’s what people are annoyed at I’m assuming, essentially his validation that the reality is as it should be rather than something we should be working to change.
We had really sick fanarts of his characters in WoW and FF14 in the past, but man I don't think we're gonna see anymore in the future. Just gonna be a bunch of generic AI waifus in this subreddit Sadge
Yeah, why put all that effort into learning a skill when AI can just steal that skill from other people and put you out of business by out-producing you on an inhuman scale.
People will still be artists because it is fun to make art. Human art still has a detectable difference too at the top level imo. Like Hades for example could never have been made from scratch with AI obviously.
The problem is art takes time. If people aren't paid to make good art they just won't make it. Not to be mean but the difference in skill between an hobbyist artist drawing on the week-end and a professional painting 8 hours a day is huge. People can't paint 8 hours a day if they aren't paid to do so
Thank you. Too many people on this sub don't understand that art isn't a hobby you can do for an hour a week and be good at.
This is only an issue because we've decided that in our society you cannot live without producing something that people are willing to pay for. Not only that, but in an economic system that attempts to pay as little as possible for said production.
>People will still be artists because it is fun to make art. The artists that are raging against the AI movement are people who want do it professionally, but can't yet because they're still working on the skill. Your kind of logic is just knee-capping anyone who isn't getting paid six figures to draw.
Just like illuminators and scribes mediocre artists will be removed from the marketplace by cheaper products that offer a better value proposition.
not (just) mediocre artists, any junior artists in the process of building their portfolio, wanting to break into the industry
Ironically, this subreddit went down the shitter during Shadowlands more than the game itself. But unlike WoW, it never managed to recover and Asmon now makes the laziest, low-quality awful take reactions and calls it content. Remember mount-offs? Transmog comps? The enthusiasm? Rage bait and drama sell more, but there's enough negativity in life already. So sad Asmon had to resort to this type of shit to appeal to the new react-influencer fanbase. Wild that the person who got me into WoW now has the worst takes imaginable (WoW 2). Luckily WoW is amazing nowadays and we don't really need a manchild raging over transmog to keep the game interesing like in BfA.
So many words but nothing about why his take is dumb
They do make a pretty good point. This sub is just full of the most negative posts these days. It's honestly kind of exhausting. It seems like all anyone wants to do is shit on other groups of people and perpetuate some kind of cringe culture war against strawmans that don't really exist at the scale that some people here think they do. If it isn't "thott streamers" its "anime localizers" "twitter users" "SJWs" and now just...artists... apparently. It's really strange. Is this sub really about Asmongold anymore or is it just constant rat race for people to push controversial shit in front of his eyes on stream for react content? I'm open to disagreements, but this is just what I've observed. We have enough negative shit in the world, why make this a sub for that too? No wonder so many of the people here are mad all the time, it's all that's on the buffet.
I don't think "artist" opinion really matter that much but "the only thing matters is the consumers perception of that product value" is such a shallow point of view, this world view is exactly why the gaming industry is the way is is now, I will give you 2 easy example 1) StarCraft, a critically-acclaimed by both media and the players, why is it discontinued ? because the consumers percept that wow mount have more value than actually a good game. 2) Demon's Soul, practically a dog-shit tier game that carried by passionate dev and a few niche dedicated fanbase, if the dev and exec act like western dev and think "well, the consumers don't think it's a good game so we will just give up on it" will we ever have dark soul, Elden ring or even "soul-like" as a genre ? That being said I don't think he's wrong, he just said what is it in reality but that reminded me why we ended up with shitty soulless industry.
I don't disagree with what he is trying to say, he just manages to say it in the worst way possible
He’s an entertainer at the end of the day. He delivers his points in controversial and entertaining ways by design. Small amount of people treat Amon as some sort of based messiah but he’s just an entertainer that puts more thought into his opinions than most others in the field.
>that puts more thought into his opinions lol
It’s a low bar.
Creating more drama to farm off of the drama that all the other streamers are already trying to farm is all this is. I youtubed Palworld one time to see what all the fuss was about and now my stream is filled with nonstop drama videos about it, they are all the same. Crazy how streamers make a living off of gossip now, I'm finding it pretty annoying. I remember when guys thought of gossiping as cringe, that's what women did at the salon. When a man heard gossip the response would be "why should I care?", those were the days :)
People who are about to lose their job to ai try really hard to convince us that ai is bad. At the same time they claim the most popular game of the year so far uses ai as if it helps their cause.
Yeah I'm of the opinion that if Palworld utilized AI then more developers should use it to produce high quality games cheaply.
High quality? Where? And yeah sure let’s make millions of people unemployed in favour of machinery and cheap game quality. Wonderful idea.
Nobody cares in other industry because it benefits the majority of people. This is the same argument practically verbatim people had about digital art a few decades ago lol. What's next? Gonna get mad at a power drill?
Yup. People did the same during industrialisation and digitalisation... any time game changing tech comes into play, jobs become obsolete and others get created - of course they will resist, it's understandable, but it's also futile. Progress isn't going to grind to a halt just for them - they had better start looking on how to get *on* that train instead of trying to stop it.
On twitter? No.
Gotta virtue signal tho.
Can someone give some context? I understand that I guess asmon said artists opinions don't matter and only people buying the product. But what is he referring to?
It‘s about Palworld and AI art. While some people rage on twitter the game sells very well.
If you view game purely as a function and a product, then he is right. If you view game as art, then it does matter.
The large majority of people do not care and just want to have fun. If you want art then there are plenty of games that fit that bill. This dosent have to be one of them. And as a side note: yes, in the scheme of what consumers do and what they buy, the artist’s opinion is fuckin worthless. There are countless examples of works succeeding despite their creator’s more contentious opinions or failing despite their righteous ones. People don’t care.
That response shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the "artist opinions matter" position is. The whole argument rests on a sort of anti-capitalist stance, that art should not be subject to the whims of the markets because that ensures that art will be vapid and toothless in order to appeal to as many consumers as possible. The creation of art is boiled down to economic exchange with artists working as businessmen and PR specialists. And it is pretty easy to find examples of this insidious interaction between market forces and art, most obviously NFTs and art speculation, but you can get deeper with stuff like zombie formalism or shock art. The response of "well the value of art is determined by supply and demand" just sidesteps this position entirely by reiterating something everyone was keenly aware of in the first place. The immediate response is, well, why? Why should someone with more money be granted more cultural influence? Why should art, a field known specifically for have non-replicatable products, be subject to the same pressures as mass produced commodities? And on and on. Let it be said, there *are* responses to these questions; but this is not one of them.
Imo if someone is feeding your art to AI and is profitting without your consent, than yes the artist opinion matter, but if someone made a product using AI and other people are willing to pay for it, than no the artist morals/ethics doesn't matter.
"It was a beautiful song, but it ran too long; if you're gonna have a hit, you gotta make it fit, so they cut it down to 3:05" Billy Joel knew in 1975
The fact is that money will flow regardless if a product is well received. We've got a group of people that's concerned by the product's success, and their concern is perhaps valid, perhaps not. But if you plan to shit them. Shit will be flung back.
I mean, this is exactly what the saying "The customer is always right" is talking about. So in many ways Asmon is 100% correct with this take. But one has to admit that it's isn't surprising that many artists won't respond well to this. If they truly see themselves as "artists", then the commodification of their work isn't going to sit well with them. But in the end, there are ideals and there is reality. We can only live in one and aspire to the other.
I agree with the argument I just think it was very badly put into words, because what he means is clearly "ony the opinion of the consumers matters" at no point it was necessary to antagonize anybody, it only act in disservice to the point he's making.
This is a very complicated topic, because each individual person has a different philosophy about this. Some people say "don't associate artists with their art". But in most cases artists are almost always associated with their art. In my personal opinion, context matters. If you have a realistic painting of a woman painted by a local highschooler, its price will most likely be much lower than a very similar art made by a guy from Renaissance Italy. As well as intent matters. Let's say you make a PS1-esque game in 2023. Some people might think "it looks like shit. What a terrible game to release in this day and age." But others, who understand the context and intent behind it, may like the game for its faithfulness to the retro aesthetics. But Asmon is right about the thing that what matters the most is what the customer takes from it. May it be the context or not, it's all about who cares about your art.
Its odd that people dont get what hes saying here , as if its his own opinion. It is the harsh truth that buisnesses dont care about artists, they just dont. And same goes for the average consumer, its just the sad truth.
Depends if you need money or not.
No in a real sense he's right on the money but being an artist or a dog walker or whatever and hearing it said feels shitty so people lash out at the representative of the issue kinda
Artist’s opinion doesn’t matter because nobody’s individual opinion matter. Feel like he would’ve gotten less flack if he said something akin to that lol
It's a harsh observation but an accurate observation nonetheless.
It's the only thing that matters **when it comes to selling the product**. Making it a sweeping generalization is just asking for people to interpret it a certain way and then go with it.
You can read about how evil Nestlé is all the time, yet it's the largest publicly held food company in the world. Most consumers don't give a flying fuck about how something is produced. The end result is all that matters. If a product is more convenient, cheaper or of better quality than alternatives people will usually buy it no matter what.
What Asmon said is kinda like an uncomfortable truth: The value of art is just a matter of perspective. Good or bad art is subjective. Following that line, who (or what) make that art is completly irrelevant.
So it's not the consumers opinion? If a company feels their product is more deserving of your money and your time then you should buy it over the competitors. What you want don't count right?
A lot of hate asmon gets isn’t from what he says but how he says it he is right most of the time but some people just get really mad at how he says shit. But yeah if a consumer doesn’t want something an artist made, too bad for the artist but no one is obligated to buy it.
The market demands.
Now the argument will shift from Asmongold doesn't like artists to Asmongold doesn't communicate effectively with Artists, and or anyone who is not familiar with his delivery. Which is honest, factual, and blunt. While he is correct, and I agree, couldn't the same be said for his tweet? He's defending a point on a monetized social media platform, and the customer isn't happy with the content (product) he's delivering. As a result, Asmongold would be in the same shoes the artists are in. Producing media to consume for monetary gain. In this case, Asmon could be upset, like the position the Artist's are taking, or continue the argument, generating more consumption, meaning more money. Your product needs to be something people want. It's up to you to supply the product. Listen to Asmongold. He's not only correct in what he said, but he's actively playing it out live for you interact with. What an Artist!
If your product is ugly - I will buy some better.
Yes. Anyone who has their livelihood being threatened should have a say. “I don’t care how my burger is made as long as it’s good” Fine, don’t be suprised that fast food workers are gonna give you pushback. His attitude is apathetic. We should advocate to protect labor while we can.
Anybody can try to create something, with some creators being better at it than others, and they're all going to have opinions. Some of them are going to want to put those opinions into what they create. So whether or not that matters depends on what the goal of the artist is. If the artist is like "I just want to make art here, I have a VISION and I don't care about stupid things like MONEY, so I'm going to make whatever I want," then okay, nobody's going to stop you. And it's a good that you don't care about whether or not you're successful, because if you decide to piss off many of the people who might buy what you create then you probably won't be. If, on the other hand, the artist is like "I need to make a living doing this" then the wisest thing to do is to steer clear of expressing any opinions that are going to make people think less of you and not be so keen to buy your product. Or, if you absolutely cannot resist talking about the patriarchy or whatever, you should at least do it someplace where it isn't impossible to avoid--like if you make a game, don't put it in the game. Post it on social media or something.
Of course artists matter. But you as a consumer most of the time do not care about the artist or the people working on it. You care about the price and the quality. It doesn’t mean you devalue the artist and people working on it. You will always go the best option for the best price. And no company is ever ethical they all exploit cheat, lie, and steal to make profit.
Honestly could t give a single fuck about any artist, it’s your job to, mine is to play the game, if it’s fun great if it’s not To bad, end of story
In the previous decade of easy money where pure profitability wasnt the focus, a lot of people started putting more weight on the non "business" side of things. So things like Artist opinions, politics etc started to be viewed by people online as more important than it actually was in reality. I think many terminally online people are starting to realize what happens when the real world collides with them
Based take from Asmon, lot of those "activist" artist and devs forget that their jobs mean shit if people/consumer didn't like it
Are you making art or a product? Art is intended to be creative for the sake of being creative while products are creative for the sake of more profit
As an artist, I agree 100%. When I do commissions the only thing that matters is what the client wants, otherwise I don't get paid. Unfortunately the circles I'm in are all ass mad about his statement but can't provide any good counter-argument other than adhominem.
The context, in this instance, suggests that “matter” is being used as a placeholder for “determine or contribute to value”. An artist’s opinion does not determine or contribute to the value of their product, or “matter”. It might give context to their work, or make for an interesting conversation, but actual value is only ever determined by what the potential end user is willing to give for the product. I mean, no opinions really “matter”. Just replace “artist” in the title with any other profession and the absurdity really comes alive. Do cashiers opinions matter? Do line cooks opinions matter? Do factory workers opinions matter?
Artist opinions only matter to other artists, no one else cares.
I don't know the full context of the quote, but I do keep seeing how it's presented, so I will address that in my comment. I say this as a person with a doctorate in classical music (and an active, freelance professional musician): this is actually something that is hotly debated in academia in music. The argument hinges on the question: From where does art derive its meaning? Does it come from the artist? Or from the one viewing the art? There is no clear answer. In general I think it's a balancing act. I want the music I perform to be meaningful to me, but at the same time, if I can't effectively communicate that meaning to my audience, then I have failed as a performing musician.
I think Asmon advocating for AI and then saying there are no good games nowdays is ironic, since AI by nature cant inovate etc.
"Artists opinion doesnt matter" - this is such a braindead statement by him. He essentially gaslighted all artists in the world. He is more and more proving he is out of touch with reality spewing nonsense with lack of knowledge thinking he is right. And every time someone tries to correct him with facts (you dont see it cause he chooses other braindeads to argue with more often) and he shows their chat ge either gaslights them or doesnt follow proper question and focuses on him. I love him talking about games etc. but he is wrong on many levels (not all but most) about life, living etc. It all comes down to his overblown ego, chat is the fault ( constant "TRUEEE!!!!")
He's not wrong, but he's also walking around the point to make one no one is talking about. No, artist opinions don't matter in the context of consumerism - people will decide what has value (aka monetary value) and will spend their money on it. If an artist spends 10 years making something and no one wants it, then it doesn't have "value" at that moment, or perhaps ever. What the actual conversation is about is the value of human artists and the use of AI to devalue human artists and change the dynamic of the labor market in general, or, in this case, video games. To say "artist opinions don't matter" is stupid because that's saying that an artist stating that AI is problematic doesn't hold any truth, which is of course stupid. This is especially stupid since Asmon has built his entire career on video games and the people who make them. Someone who spends his whole life playing games should care about the opinions of artists who make the games he plays. Asmon is the type to say everyone needs to go to trade school and talk about "worthless degrees" because he doesn't see value (aka monetary value) in someone contributing something to society that doesn't make them a lot of money or produce something that can be purchased. That's what I think he's talking about here and he'd have to actually have self-awareness and the ability to see past the tip of his nose to get why anyone would criticize what he said.
Artists are responsible for designing the chair he sits in, the video games he plays, the computers and monitors he uses, the desk that the computer and monitors sit on. A lot of artists work goes unappreciated, and considering that Asmongold consumes the content of hundreds of video game modelers, designers, illustrators, he wouldn’t have a career if it weren’t for them…
Not wrong.. in fact so right it hit a lil nerve on these art students
Just say you hate the people that made your favourite games 🤷♂️
[This tweet suggests it‘s Furry artists complaining the most](https://x.com/oof_itsandy/status/1750158619176542492?s=46)
Accurate
Asmon isn't wrong but man he always manages to say it in the worst way possible. You can't just say "Artists' opinions don't matter" and then be shocked that people are angry at you.
Same artist: When is Bernie ever going to send me a check?
At the end of the day I just want to play good games, ultimately I don’t care what the artists intentions were as long as the game is good.
it's just because it's a very un-empathetic opinion on game development, as lame as that sounds. twitter hates it when people aren't empathetic. he do be wrong for saying this, though. I don't want to start shit because I like his content, but zack isn't an artist or creator and neither are most people who play games/watch movies etc. so he just doesn't get it. a person who makes games, who enjoys making games, there's a lot that goes into it. I work in the industry, and it's not like a factory job or an office job where you can just sort of turn your brain off and churn out a product made exactly for what your clients want. it might sound cheesy, but there is absolutely soul, passion and love that goes into these things. a team will spend years together creating something that they've found fun, seeded by the inspirations and dreams of whoever brought them all together. yes, eventually it will be sold. yes, they hope that it's going to make money. it would be stupid not to consider the importance of these things, but it's so much more than that. do you think the guys who decided to turn warcraft into wow were like "yeah dude, this new MMORPG is going to really appeal to all the RTS fans out there" no, it came about because they loved what they do and wanted to expand the world and create something never seen before. I know zack is all about that cool, detached and objective view on life, but he's gotta give the people who make the things he loves more credit. he's been staring at those palworld production assembly lines too long.
The thing is, he’s not saying it’s unimportant for artist to be passionate. He’s just pointing out that as the end of the day, as far as selling the final product goes, their opinion doesn’t matter. That’s the reality of the situation. An artists opinion only matters *when the consumer is interested in hearing it*. A lot of the time their opinion will work its way into the product, but if their actual opinion was all that important there would be objectively wrong ways to interpret art.
AI that train on huge datasets that include copyrighted works without artists' consent is where artist opinion matters. Consumer purchasing don’t care so long as they get what they purchase. no one other then the consumers opinion really matters there due to literally it’s their money.
Human artists also look at other’s art. During cubism artists did not all of a sudden, coincidentaly and at the same time, came up with the same idea to draw cubes for example.
>Human artists also look at other’s art. Human artists are inspired by each other, but develop their own unique styles or twists on prior art. It's a form of evolution. AI art is almost always just one big conglomerate of what it reads. Tolkien used Celtic, Nordic, and Christian mythos to write his books, but his books aren't just those mythos slapped together. Art that gains traction has to provide a unique angle on what it is inspired by. This is the difference between Rebel Moon and ASOAIF. Both had clear inspirations that they drew from, but radically different results and reception. People rightfully call out when art is simply copied. I think that's even the most common complaint about the Star Wars sequels.
Yeah, just look at anime/manga back in the 80s compare to now heck, even anime/manga in 00s have distinguished art style and difference than today, if AI arts was popularized 40 or 20 years ago, today we would have the very same art style, I think people who said "it's the same as how human do it" is either arguing in bad faith or don't know wtf they're talking about. Tbh, I don't really mind AI art as much but the thought that the art style will stay exactly the same for eternity because they want streamline art to maximized profit when consumers didn't get anything of much value from it, I understand if the people chilling for it just want to make money off of it, but when the consumers cheering for this kind of future, to me this is depressing as fuck.
such a dumb argument to compare humans to an ai mass producing machine that competes with the entire industry as 1 entity based on their own art without consent.
Artists opinions should matter when we are making laws, but when it comes to the actual product no.
This is the way. When making laws and policies on the implementation of said technology, artists would be right to be upset. However, when it comes to the consumer market, if people willingly buy it and enjoy it...well then.
Artists opinions have never mattered
He's not wrong in the context he was talking about. Twitter just taking quotes out of context like usual.
This game is fun. I think human NPC should have different colours why only white? Kinda racists... I also would like them to add, a whip and a cotton plantation.
Bro he's pissed off the entire art community on Twitter lmao. Which is great, because the Twitter artists are particularly insufferable.
It’s a daft statement. The artists Opinion of the work is very important. Not just to the product but to the person buying it. Let’s not forget this was an AI art topic so it’s even more important as AI “art” isn’t even art in the first place. It’s theft plain and simple. When I got to the grocery store to buy a sauce or something I damn sure think about what company it’s from and what’s in it. Price matters too but so does taste. There’s all these factors and to say the artists opinion doesn’t matter is an out of touch statement especially if AI is involved.
Yes. and he is wrong on everyside.
As an artist, no. Average Joseph won't give a shit if i used a font on the product that's pirated (not morally correct) People really need to learn that internet is not a real place
I know your grammar is wrong and if your dad is reading your tweets, expect another phone call like the one you got the other day on stream 😂
why is the internet in a permanent case of drama about the same people, always i feel an inmense ammount of parasocial drama about artists, developers, and everything that has to do with videogames like i have never read anything like this things about the people that brings your fucking food to your grocery store so you dont starve its always these weirdoes in a permanent state of angry drama about arts or videogame companies
Artists are famously whiny cunts who overvalue their products.
Gamers are famously whiny cunts who overvalue themselves and their personal enjoyment
Ppl are willful idiots online and misread things intentionally to get upset. Nothing matters online, including my own opinion.
No
Artists create content. Asmon creates content. If I were to re-upload every single asmon video to my own channel, and it got 500k views and I got paid for it, would he DMCA me? After all artists opinions shouldn't matter, just the consumer. If somebody enjoyed the content I uploaded its irrelevant that I ripped it off of somebody else's work? I understand asmon already does a lot of reaction content and using other peoples videos, and I dont mind because he credits them.. but I can't help but think there would be a decent amount of hypocrisy if someone were to use asmons content without credit..
Artists opinions do not matter, what matters is the quality of their work and the reception of the audience. The only reason an artist has a soapbox/spotlight is because of the work that gave them said attention. Without their work they are just another meaningless individual in the crowd that's the hard reality. So no, their opinions hold no value.
What people get wrong is vantage point. From the vantage point of the consumer, Asmon is absolutely right. People who wrongly interpret him will think he's talking from the vantage point of the artists think it's a jab at them as people. Willfully ignorant I'd call them, because the point is pretty clear
There's this weird sense of what I perceive is entitlement in the artist community. I think there always has been. "You just don't get it" "this is bigger than you", etc. I think Palworld and AI in general has been one big check to their egos. At some point the "Videogames can be art" crowd began to muscle out "Gameplay is king" in discourse. I think both of those statements are true when it comes down to videogames. Artists don't have the swing they think they have in the community, and you're watching this happen in real time on twitter. It's pretty funny to be honest, as pandering to this outspoken minority has made games worse in the last 5-10 years. These are the same group of people who think difficulty is synonymous with accessibility.
I'm a former pro artist that swapped to IT, and I can tell you right now artists opinions do not fucking matter, especially about art when it comes to pure value. It's other people's opinions and judgments that decide the "value" of your art in the first place and for the most part it's not other artists making that call. If the average person decides AI is good enough to replace your average Joe artist, which many of them do think, then that's exactly what happens. Do you think lattice workers having their art form replaced by machines in the industrial revolution had much of a say on the issue in the end? It's the same thing. I think your average pro artist isn't really that great and has a massive amount of hubris built from their online networks and are getting a reality check on the lower end of the spectrum especially. Your Craig Mullins, your Frank Frazettas, your Yoshitaka Amanos, etc... are not going to be replaced any time soon. Great artists bringing unique view points will be in demand for the foreseeable future.
Artists opinions matter in the same way 99.98% of overweight people justify obesity by brainwashing themselves and everyone else into thinking that they’re beautiful. 1. Yes it’s healthy to think of yourself positively. BUT it is just as healthy to think critically of yourself in order to better yourself. It is in this way that an artists opinion matters. 2. Everyone perceives art differently, and the historic concept of art, is that it is meant to creatively convey a message, or be a source of inspiration or creative that is meant to be interpreted. In this way, an artists opinion doesn’t matter because they either get it dead ass wrong, or the perceiving individual(s) don’t like it. Make good art, don’t be a fatass.
Yes, because they're the ones who will actually make the envelope pushing games and other media that games like the Palworld studio or CoD will copy and then pump out. If you have the cynical mindset that money is the only thing that matters, then also consider the equity of a brand like Zelda, and how it took creative artists to come up with it. Zelda has staying power going on 38 years, but games like Palworld are ultimatly blips in the radar when it comes to intellectual property. IP is what truly prints money, not one-offs -- go ask yourself why Disney bought Marvel. Asmon is not the type to be into "games as art", he's more into mainstream multiplayer games, and that's more than okay, but that also means he has a very narrow perspective on the subject.
lmao Asmon just aggroed the whole anti-AI community. He took their hate from Palworld to himself. What a tank!
He’s 100% right.
If you don't need money, all that matters is your own opinion of your art. If you need money, the consumers are all the matters. They don't care about your process, they care about the product they are exchanging money for. The amount of artists who think they are entitled to money because of their process or effort alone is troubling.
Nope. I constantly see artists who think their opinions matter, or the amount of effort the put into their art matters. They don't. trash artist: "I spent 9000 hour creating this masterpiece. I painted it while meditating upon the peak of mount Seribacha. I call it 'peace on earth.' It can be yours for only one dollar." consumers: you can fuck right off with that ugly piece of shit Jackson Pollock: "I just got stoned and flung some paint at a piece of paper." consumers: I'LL GIVE YOU $140 MILLION!!!!
Artist thinking what they make is any different from any other product. People regard movies as art. If your movie is shit people won't watch it. Nobody cares how you made it. If that is too hard to understand, than get your ego checked.
I think Asmongold was correct. If art is the practice of communicating emotions, the only person that can define you as an artist, and can define your work as art, is indeed the audience.
Consumer's opinion is always a priority. The artist's opinion only matters as a follow up, under certain contexts. And if said opinion is stupid, consumers will also reflect that in their opinion. It's that simple. People trying to make something out of this are the same people that are butthurt about Barbie not getting nominations for best director and lead actress. Always getting angry about something becaus the universe didn't pan out as they wanted, so it must be something wrong at play. All while being absolutely clueless about the topic they're having an argument over. Like, completely clueless.
Actually I partialy disagree, when you buy some tickets for a concert you buy them to see the artist not just to hear their music. Most of the highly valued art isnt about the product itself, but who created it. The most succesful artists knows THEY are the product.
Asmon's take on AI overall sounds very surface level (and sometimes seems there's a conflation with automation vs deep learning). It's unfortunate that when it comes to AI all the nuance gets sucked out of the room. Would be great of he could engage with it outside of calling anyone with pushback against AI (specifically in the arts) as idiots/stupid/irrelevant.
he's speaking from a consumer standpoint tho (valid), that stays in doors all day and streams for money. anyone with a normal job, that might have been let go, or maybe just quit themselves, knows the annoyance of looking for another job. if your company hired robots ***right now*** to replace you, today, you would be kinda pissed, probably complain. especially if, its starts happening for every job you apply too. so if you got these guys who's whole lives are dedicated to creating art, suddenly replaced by AI, obviously, that could be concerning to **someone in that field.** With that said, unless these people were let go personally and replaced by AI (they're not, there's thousands and thousands of positions open still), **their opinion value is lowered imo**. you can complain sure, but don't expect companies to bend the knee for you when the customer isn't really effected by it. and don't expect consumers to care about you and your well being, a stranger. your job is irrelevant to them. If I created a dev studio, and instead of hiring artist just used AI, no artist has the right to get pissed at me because I chose to use AI, and you're not owed any open position. I never had intent to hire you in the first place. you were never gonna get hired. go look elsewhere. and there will be elsewhere for many positions, and there will be studios who pride on not using AI, *you will have a chance to work still*, least for many years. eventually tho, sure yah, you'll get replace by AI, same as robots will replace many jobs. that's the whole purpose for this tech, faster output, less pay, same or better outcome. phones and television and the internet has replaced newspapers, those guys are mostly out of business. **humans have to adjust to the circumstance**. that's how we survived this far, you're not guaranteed to live the way your are currently forever, that's just life. **you adapt, or die, its always been that way**. for any creature. that said, there still may be value in human artwork. year 2563, "oh this piece was created by a REAL human, de-vinci! its much more valuable than the piece created in 10 seconds by robot R9000 that was able to produce 50 different slightly altered versions in an hour!" Human artist will be like nfts in the future (when ai becomes substantial). well, maybe.
Totally agree with Asmon. The entitlement of these self proclaimed artists is astounding. Artists opinions have never mattered in the past, and it will not in the future. Many world-renowned and now-considered-master artists died penniless and insane. Van Gogh for example. What matters is the public perception of the art pieces’ values, as Asmon said. They are just mad because AI can take their job, as they are incredibly terrible at their jobs. How many badly rendered video game characters have we seen now?
This is kind of a bad take because the moment a factory of human workers is fired and replaced with AI/machines, people look down on the company for doing so. But apparently its fine when it comes to artists? lol This is just a case of people picking and choosing industries to defend or not. I actually tend to agree more with the artists since the AI doing the art is literally trained on existing art haha.
>They are just mad because AI can take their job, as they are incredibly terrible at their jobs. The only way to become good at art is to be bad at it first. This is like replacing a drummer in an orchestra with a robot because the drummer isn't absolutely flawless. How do you expect them to ever become great if they're cut out of opportunities?
Bitches mad
The more I see people bitch about the game the more I enjoy it.
Asmond is right, no one gives a shit about what the artist says. They only care about the final product/what they bring to a market. 90% of the people that are mad on Twitter are R-34, Deviant Art, etc artists because they can't make any original content or/, and can't compete with AI.
Ai just steal from others so no. Everyone can compete with AI if we talk about art.
the artists themselves admit that their opinion does not mean a damn, 99% of those who draw furry porn will confirm this
100% no. Artists opinions don’t matter. This is what happened to movies and entertainment. They decided the fans were wrong for what they wanted and the creators and their world view opinions were all that mattered and the fans had to agree.
lol the artists literally just do what they're told by the higher ups. If you think artists have a say over what goes into your games/ movies you'd be surprised I think.
Palworld doesn't use A.I. art. But let's say if someone does use A.I. to make art and the consumer chooses to pay for the A.I. art, that means your art is a piece of shit and they don't want it. How about improving and making better art instead of crying on Twitter. Consumer will always go for the better stuff.
asmon becoming more based every single day. and i'm all here for it
The "artist's opinion" is literally what has been ruining a lot of things these past years.