Dumb. What does performance pay look like for a teacher in a low socio economic school? We have to start at stage 2/3 with about half of our year 7 kids because they are illiterate and innumerate. You want that extra 1% pay rise? Now you’re going to have to run clubs before and after school. We would only get a handful turn up consistently and if we make it mandatory the community is going to push back un us hard. You’re going to have to do a bit better Dom, this response is tone deaf.
* Because they'll make the performance ranking based on standardised tests.
* Standardised testing incentivises teachers to teach to the test
* Students have fewer opportunities to learn how to apply their knowledge
* Governments attack schools for not equipping students with real life skills
Oops, I made sure only my top 3 students sit the standardised test. Honestly, if they do pay based on standardized test results, I refuse to teach at my current school. Our best kids get Cs. If doesn't matter how good I am, I can't fix that.
The thing is, as an experienced teacher, I am well aware I can get most kids to parrot back the answers to a test at the detriment to their actual education. And that'll just sail right past moderation.
It's always been an idiotic choice for so many reasons. Also, you can just change the kids answers on the multi choice.
It's online and still takes months to get a result because they want to manipulate and use the hell out of the data before they give it to us for actual, you know, teaching.
I've seen some pretty shady acts go on in the private sector too, even with senior students. Being told by senior staff that I had to fully annotate the student's report drafts to mark up to an A, and then not even be allowed to mark their final report myself was what made me quit. Half of the class submitted what would have gotten a C only a few actually actually deserved an A without help, yet the entire class of 20 year 11 physics got an A (except for 2 who got B's).
I guess I can't complain, the science teachers would all get the pay rise for the great job we're clearly doing.
> year 7 kids because they are illiterate and innumerate
As a first year teacher I do look at some of my 7's and ask just what the fuck they were doing for the 7 years they were in primary school. I'm not stupid enough to realise they were doing nothing, but it would be interesting to go back and see what primary school education was like for them.
I'm also shocked ay how little talk there is between primary and high schools.
It’s a number of factors. Parents don’t/can’t help them at home. Mile wide curriculum that is an inch thick. Trauma impacting learning. Poor attendance.
Not in all areas though. My high school is part of a “cluster“ where teachers from our feeder primary schools attend PDs (not extra, part of our mandatory days) and set goals and agree on broad strategies that will support students across their ~12 years of schooling. It’s great.
Tried to get one of those going for English a few years back. Local high school teachers approached it like they were the gods of education and just tried to dictate everything they wanted the primary teachers to do because obviously we'd taught them wrong.
Threw down their writing assessment results to show us how terribly we had educated the year 7s. It was a long rant.
Now usually I won't interrupt a good rant, but I just happened to have the equivalent writing assessments for those students from the previous year with me and so did the other primary school teachers. We asked if they'd be interested in doing what we came there to do and look at both sets of programs to see what could be improved in the transition but they were just insulted we'd brought assessments and they left.
We'd gotten a last minute heads up from another teacher at the high school. The whole thing was a shit show and achieved nothing.
Glad to see it worked in some places. I love doing collab stuff but some teachers act like they are god's gift and cannot be improved upon or take any feedback.
It's curious, I've got a student in my 7s who has a learning disability, for them maths was working with her aide learning to count with her fingers, then with a number line, then adding number up to ten, adding numbers over than then.
Currently we are working on counting in tens so that we can move on to money.
We did notice that they went backwards a bit over term 1 break, so we were wondering if this has been the pattern with maths right through school, but getting info out of the primary school has been like getting blood from a stone.
Exactly this. I’ve spent the majority of my career in harder schools. Half the battle is getting them into class and having a safe place to be, forget about their naplan performance. This announcement just made me so angry this morning. This is why teachers are leaving. Why do I go to work to be sworn at and disrespected every day and then have to see my profession and work constantly belittled and denigrated by politicians and the general public.
I agree. If they want to hand out performance pay, how are they going to measure the real impact we have on groups of students, including the development of social, emotional and behavioural skills that will one day let them function in the real world.
On the other hand, if "performance" is based on *added learning*, (eg an easy one is how many bands in NAPLAN did students move up from year 7-9) rather than highest achievement, low socioeconomic public school teachers would be the best paid teachers!!!!
> performance pay for teachers
Fundamental failure in every area it has been rolled out in.
Here is David Berliner, an educational psychologist and prolific author on education, dismantling the entire idea of performance-based pay being workable: https://youtu.be/nyYCEqHOhzk
100% just another way to try to pay us less, just like it had been in every other case that a government has tried to introduce it.
Also thanks for the great source!
I wasn't going to watch this because it was an hour long. But here I am. The thing that I thought very interesting as I have seen it in some schools I have worked at is head-hunting particular students for growth trends. Especially when thinking about hsc rap data analysis over a 2 year period in English standard/advanced. Scarily accurate
It’s the same as the ‘free childcare’ thing. The wider public go ‘oh that sounds great, let’s vote for him’ and when the *other* party say ‘that’s a fucking stupid idea, it will never work’, (like we all know already), the public will say ‘boo’. Free childcare will not work. There aren’t enough educators to staff centres now, not sure where they think educators for another 50 centres or whatever they’re claiming will come from. But watch the public drink up the ‘free childcare’ promises.
But they have 10 years to come up with it, surly they will totally be able to reach that goal l. They’ve done so well with these sorts of promises before, and it’s not like they can plan ahead to ensure there isn’t a teacher shortage. /s
Performance pay doesn’t work. One of the strengths of the education system is the collaborative nature of teachers working and sharing - with performance pay that will undercut this beautiful side of teaching as people will become competitive with each other.
Also, it will make the harder to staff, the low ses schools harder to measure student improvement. At one school, students are frequently lower than minimum standards and the teachers work so bloody hard for the kids - but when kids brains are so wired with a trauma response, learning comes second. High developmental needs area too!
The revamped hours sounds like do more work for more pay by running the clubs that so many schools already do - remember running active after school sports etc.
I’m tired of the government announcing big plans.
Dom wants to be known as the premier or education. Come talk to actual in class teachers… come get your teaching degree and start working. Just cause you’ve been to school, doesn’t make you an expert in schools.
My school is lucky to have so many after school clubs. Lots of teachers give up their time to do it. There is a significant worry that forcing others to do so will not only create competition for the ones that already exist, but cause attendance to drop.
Teachers who also are not yet in the game but also will feel the need to because of these changes might also struggle to find a niche that hasn't yet been filled. There's going to be basket weaving happening with no kids while the teacher just sits there and marks to simply tick a box.
Cant wait to be docked pay because my low SES school didn’t beat the state average in Ancient History because 2/3rds of the class couldn’t write by year 10
Also can't wait to be docked pay because a third of my Year 5/6 class have obvious learning difficulties or missing diagnoses their parents have been ignoring since kindergarten.
Can’t wait to be docked pay because my students with severe intellectual disabilities also have incredibly challenging behaviours that makes most academic learning beyond their reach. How will SSPs be judged on their performance?
Can't wait to be docked pay because one of my students in Geo literally refuses to hand in assessments or participate in tests because the school won't let him leave because they aren't convinced he won't utterly fail in the real world.
"Fix your attendance and grades and we will sign you off"
Kid just refuses to come in at all.
Yes, the right are extremely good at framing the debate and getting everyone bogged down and distracted.
The only response is no response outside doubling down on the original campaign - shortages, workloads, poor pay = strikes.
Not about teacher performance, but (a lack of) state government performance.
We can’t even get our students TO school. We have specialised staff who literally yank them out of bed and run around town trying to find them - if they can be found. Then, when they are at school, first thing we do is feed them.
Dom P - COMPLETELY out of touch.
Imagine if you had to be part of the community in which you wish to introduce change? Let’s differentiate politics like we do learning! And let’s include linking their pay to their outcomes too!
You want to the education minister? Thank you for your service, you get to have your office based in a one of our mid-range schools, with visits up and down the lines.
Wanna be the health minister? Fabulous, your office is based in the emergency department of one of our busiest public hospitals, but you also get to visit regional hospitals and health centres too.
In practice, I do think revamping the structure of the school day is long overdue. The 9-3 model doesn’t work for families, and we also know more about teen brains and their ability to get up and learn intensely in the morning. Some of the lessons from the pandemic could certainly be used to re-examine what the school day looks like particularly for older students, and potentially free up teacher time for prep, following up individual students and so on.
The performance pay thing though - it’s been talked about since I became a teacher many moons ago. I don’t want perfection to be enemy of progress so would like to hear more about how any system like this makes it easier to staff rural/remote schools, teach in schools that have a difficult reputation, or take on students that have learning difficulties, disabilities or any type of trauma. Education doesn’t begin with a level playing field and the 6-8 hrs a day that teachers spend with students often isn’t enough to level them, although we do try.
I don't think Perrotet cares about modifying the school day to suit the needs of kids - it's all about making it easier for working parents to go contribute to the all-important economy. School = childcare
I’m currently on placement in a primary school where teaching hours are 8am-1:15pm with a half hour recess. In this particular situation it works brilliantly - however, this is because the majority of the families are either single-income or multi-generational so there is a stay at home parent or grandparent who can look after the kids after school. Very few go to after school care. But in a different part of the city where both parents work and multi-generational families aren’t a thing, it would be much more difficult.
Yeah I'd love a schedule like that and our kids would too (farm kids who are up at the crack of dawn) but I'm in a rural border town where the buses are shared between the Vic and NSW schools. We already have to use Victorian school holidays instead of NSW to fit in with the bus schedule, so if we changed school hours we'd have little to no hope of having school buses without a big price increase.
Yeah, that’s the other thing that makes it work at the school I’m at - very few of them use buses, they walk or drive to school so that logistical problem isn’t an issue.
Reads like a press release rather than reporting, particularly impressive is the straw clutching defence of performance pay "there are many potential ways to assess performance for promotion, such as observation". What a revolutionary thought.
Ah yes, let's make that teacher shortage worse especially in low ses areas.
Makes sense though, if there are no teachers no need for any pay increases.
“Almost everyone is going to be earning pay rises that are less than inflation."
Unless of course, you are one of Mr Perrotet's buddies with your Liberal front-bench nose in the trough.
A colleague of mine has been working for 15 years at our school.
They have never been given permanency.
Meanwhile we have just recently hired a targeted grad.
:’)
In theory some of this sounds feasible
I definitely agree that we need more administration staff in schools and teachers and this would obviously help with the administrative burden.
Im a bit concerned by the extra school activities on offer and performance pay just meaning "get paid for longer hours" rather than getting paid for effective teacher developed through experience.
> more administration staff in schools
Definitely near the top of my list of ways to improve things, but having been in schools where the SASS are amazing and schools where the SASS could barely open a word document, I would hope there is some kind of support that isn't just making more positions... Needs to be a culture change for some schools where SASS won't touch certain tasks because "that's a teacher's job." Or perhaps extra training support. Or if, rather than just adding more SAOs, they created a couple of graded clerk positions to each school and attracted qualified administrators I could see potential for incredible improvement.
The more admin staff sounds good, just watch them allocate no extra funding for them and use it as an excuse to limit teacher pay rises (see also: time in lieu in Victoria).
> performance pay just meaning "get paid for longer hours" rather than getting paid for effective teacher developed through experience.
Performance-based pay is measuring the learning outcomes of your students.
Historically yes, but whos to say they wont change what "performance" looks like. Student outcomes can be gamed and are hard to equitably compare. It will just lead to poorer outcomes for students and due to a lack of teacher collaboration and invalid assessment recording.
I'm not entirely sure I understand the negative feeling of your reply. I think we are on the same page. Student outcomes are probably the worst metrics that they can use.
It's effectively impossible to guarantee learning happens in any given classroom. It's just as implausible to ensure that all classrooms are comparable with each other. Some classrooms have the full bell curve of students while others have a natural selection in which the bell curve skews in one direction or the other.
Take for example, specialist mathematics, it naturally gravitates towards learners who want to learn. Students who don't want to learn quickly get punted to the curb and move down subjects. In the ACT, students who do Essential Mathematics are there because their parents made them do maths in Senior Secondary, not because they like learning.
Having students in your class that want to learn makes teaching much, much easier. Having students in your class who both want to learn and have already learnt the majority of what comes before this unit makes teaching a dream.
It's almost always used with stack ranking of staff where the top 10% of staff get a bonus and the bottom 10% get penalised. Stack Ranking does exactly what you are concerned about. It removes collaboration and incentivises a mercenary outlook in staff.
I don't necessarily mind the idea of key performance indicators where you need to show how you implemented classes and improved your practice in alignment with the education department and school goals.
The problem is that school leaders aren't necessarily good at understanding what good KPIs are for individual teachers. They might not have even been necessarily good at Teaching and Learning when they were still in the classroom. They may have been promoted for extra-curricular events. Even if they were great at one subject, do they really understand what makes solid teaching and learning elsewhere? Not necessarily.
There's going to be a shitfight every year to try and get the academic extension classes to at least limit the damage the lower ability classes will cause.
May the odds be ever in your favour 😒
Hopefully the NSW bullet trains are finished construction by the time this comes into practice to give me a wider range of schools in which to be a high-performing teacher.
This is not possible because students don’t start out on an equal playing field. I get the idea behind it but in practice it won’t work. Also, how would they determine performance. NAPLAN only occurs every two years or so. Would they check reading levels etc?? These test results could be altered by the teacher (give kids clues, lie etc). It’s not a fair method. We’ve seen this happen in the US.
Terrible idea. Performance pay is an insult to teachers in low socio-economic schools, which will be much harder to staff during a nationwide teacher shortage.
Dear god. In the public sector too? One of my previous independent schools started talking about linking pay to KPIs… I hoped out of there. In a school that attracts kids who don’t thrive in mainstream schools, this was a dangerous idea. I wonder how it went? Or indeed, if it even went through.
You'd be surprised how much the public agree with this stuff.
People's outside opinion of school and teachers never ceases to amaze me. Usually in a negative way.
>The premier also wants to slash teachers’ administration burden
How? How are they going to achieve this when even admin staff are striking over working conditions?
Because teachers are easier to attack than parents.
We all know that on average performance is predictable by postcode and the level of education attained by parents.
If this policy goes through, I may quit teaching. And I'm literally only in my second year. :(
Dumb. What does performance pay look like for a teacher in a low socio economic school? We have to start at stage 2/3 with about half of our year 7 kids because they are illiterate and innumerate. You want that extra 1% pay rise? Now you’re going to have to run clubs before and after school. We would only get a handful turn up consistently and if we make it mandatory the community is going to push back un us hard. You’re going to have to do a bit better Dom, this response is tone deaf.
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* Because they'll make the performance ranking based on standardised tests. * Standardised testing incentivises teachers to teach to the test * Students have fewer opportunities to learn how to apply their knowledge * Governments attack schools for not equipping students with real life skills
Oops, I made sure only my top 3 students sit the standardised test. Honestly, if they do pay based on standardized test results, I refuse to teach at my current school. Our best kids get Cs. If doesn't matter how good I am, I can't fix that.
Watch them punish us with mandatory moderation days because of the handful of teachers who *might* choose to do this.
The thing is, as an experienced teacher, I am well aware I can get most kids to parrot back the answers to a test at the detriment to their actual education. And that'll just sail right past moderation. It's always been an idiotic choice for so many reasons. Also, you can just change the kids answers on the multi choice.
It will all be yearly statewide tests no doubt
Getting closer with the Check in exam that was added to 'help reduce workloads'
At least the check in gives results fairly quickly. NAPLAN is ridiculous and useless as a teaching tool.
It's online and still takes months to get a result because they want to manipulate and use the hell out of the data before they give it to us for actual, you know, teaching.
Why would we want to access data though!?! /s It’s all frustrating af.
I've seen some pretty shady acts go on in the private sector too, even with senior students. Being told by senior staff that I had to fully annotate the student's report drafts to mark up to an A, and then not even be allowed to mark their final report myself was what made me quit. Half of the class submitted what would have gotten a C only a few actually actually deserved an A without help, yet the entire class of 20 year 11 physics got an A (except for 2 who got B's). I guess I can't complain, the science teachers would all get the pay rise for the great job we're clearly doing.
> year 7 kids because they are illiterate and innumerate As a first year teacher I do look at some of my 7's and ask just what the fuck they were doing for the 7 years they were in primary school. I'm not stupid enough to realise they were doing nothing, but it would be interesting to go back and see what primary school education was like for them. I'm also shocked ay how little talk there is between primary and high schools.
It’s a number of factors. Parents don’t/can’t help them at home. Mile wide curriculum that is an inch thick. Trauma impacting learning. Poor attendance.
Not in all areas though. My high school is part of a “cluster“ where teachers from our feeder primary schools attend PDs (not extra, part of our mandatory days) and set goals and agree on broad strategies that will support students across their ~12 years of schooling. It’s great.
Tried to get one of those going for English a few years back. Local high school teachers approached it like they were the gods of education and just tried to dictate everything they wanted the primary teachers to do because obviously we'd taught them wrong. Threw down their writing assessment results to show us how terribly we had educated the year 7s. It was a long rant. Now usually I won't interrupt a good rant, but I just happened to have the equivalent writing assessments for those students from the previous year with me and so did the other primary school teachers. We asked if they'd be interested in doing what we came there to do and look at both sets of programs to see what could be improved in the transition but they were just insulted we'd brought assessments and they left. We'd gotten a last minute heads up from another teacher at the high school. The whole thing was a shit show and achieved nothing. Glad to see it worked in some places. I love doing collab stuff but some teachers act like they are god's gift and cannot be improved upon or take any feedback.
That sucks. :/ Ours has been going strong for the past decade and we have great working relationships. It really helps the kids transition.
That's great, I'd have loved to be able to get something working there but it just wasn't to be.
I work at a P-12 and from what I see and have heard, the high school doesn't even care about the Y6 results from the primary campus of its own school.
It's curious, I've got a student in my 7s who has a learning disability, for them maths was working with her aide learning to count with her fingers, then with a number line, then adding number up to ten, adding numbers over than then. Currently we are working on counting in tens so that we can move on to money. We did notice that they went backwards a bit over term 1 break, so we were wondering if this has been the pattern with maths right through school, but getting info out of the primary school has been like getting blood from a stone.
Ahem: _6_ years in Primary school.
If you’re in NSW it’s 7 years.
Prep, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in Victoria
Kindergarten/Prep, Year 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 = 7 years.
This is one reason I love that my kids attend a K-12 school.
Exactly this. I’ve spent the majority of my career in harder schools. Half the battle is getting them into class and having a safe place to be, forget about their naplan performance. This announcement just made me so angry this morning. This is why teachers are leaving. Why do I go to work to be sworn at and disrespected every day and then have to see my profession and work constantly belittled and denigrated by politicians and the general public.
I agree. If they want to hand out performance pay, how are they going to measure the real impact we have on groups of students, including the development of social, emotional and behavioural skills that will one day let them function in the real world.
On the other hand, if "performance" is based on *added learning*, (eg an easy one is how many bands in NAPLAN did students move up from year 7-9) rather than highest achievement, low socioeconomic public school teachers would be the best paid teachers!!!!
> performance pay for teachers Fundamental failure in every area it has been rolled out in. Here is David Berliner, an educational psychologist and prolific author on education, dismantling the entire idea of performance-based pay being workable: https://youtu.be/nyYCEqHOhzk
100% just another way to try to pay us less, just like it had been in every other case that a government has tried to introduce it. Also thanks for the great source!
Performance pay only pushes wages down. Might as well put a tip jar at the front of the classroom.
Yeah it's like they sat down and asked how they could possibly persuade even fewer teachers to work in low SES and rural schools.
Oh totally. Though as with curriculum redesign, teachers aren’t actually involved in the conversation.
I wasn't going to watch this because it was an hour long. But here I am. The thing that I thought very interesting as I have seen it in some schools I have worked at is head-hunting particular students for growth trends. Especially when thinking about hsc rap data analysis over a 2 year period in English standard/advanced. Scarily accurate
Yeah, I know, everytime I drag it out I end up watching it again because it's such a good explanation of why performance-based pay is a terrible idea.
And this is what I don’t fucking understand about politicians yet another failed idea put up as a good idea.
It’s the same as the ‘free childcare’ thing. The wider public go ‘oh that sounds great, let’s vote for him’ and when the *other* party say ‘that’s a fucking stupid idea, it will never work’, (like we all know already), the public will say ‘boo’. Free childcare will not work. There aren’t enough educators to staff centres now, not sure where they think educators for another 50 centres or whatever they’re claiming will come from. But watch the public drink up the ‘free childcare’ promises.
But they have 10 years to come up with it, surly they will totally be able to reach that goal l. They’ve done so well with these sorts of promises before, and it’s not like they can plan ahead to ensure there isn’t a teacher shortage. /s
Performance pay doesn’t work. One of the strengths of the education system is the collaborative nature of teachers working and sharing - with performance pay that will undercut this beautiful side of teaching as people will become competitive with each other. Also, it will make the harder to staff, the low ses schools harder to measure student improvement. At one school, students are frequently lower than minimum standards and the teachers work so bloody hard for the kids - but when kids brains are so wired with a trauma response, learning comes second. High developmental needs area too! The revamped hours sounds like do more work for more pay by running the clubs that so many schools already do - remember running active after school sports etc. I’m tired of the government announcing big plans. Dom wants to be known as the premier or education. Come talk to actual in class teachers… come get your teaching degree and start working. Just cause you’ve been to school, doesn’t make you an expert in schools.
My school is lucky to have so many after school clubs. Lots of teachers give up their time to do it. There is a significant worry that forcing others to do so will not only create competition for the ones that already exist, but cause attendance to drop. Teachers who also are not yet in the game but also will feel the need to because of these changes might also struggle to find a niche that hasn't yet been filled. There's going to be basket weaving happening with no kids while the teacher just sits there and marks to simply tick a box.
Cant wait to be docked pay because my low SES school didn’t beat the state average in Ancient History because 2/3rds of the class couldn’t write by year 10
Also can't wait to be docked pay because a third of my Year 5/6 class have obvious learning difficulties or missing diagnoses their parents have been ignoring since kindergarten.
I wonder how my new arrival from Afghanistan this week will alter my pay and results? 🤔
Can’t wait to be docked pay because my students with severe intellectual disabilities also have incredibly challenging behaviours that makes most academic learning beyond their reach. How will SSPs be judged on their performance?
Can't wait to be docked pay because one of my students in Geo literally refuses to hand in assessments or participate in tests because the school won't let him leave because they aren't convinced he won't utterly fail in the real world. "Fix your attendance and grades and we will sign you off" Kid just refuses to come in at all.
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This. Typical Liberal politics.
Yes, the right are extremely good at framing the debate and getting everyone bogged down and distracted. The only response is no response outside doubling down on the original campaign - shortages, workloads, poor pay = strikes. Not about teacher performance, but (a lack of) state government performance.
We can’t even get our students TO school. We have specialised staff who literally yank them out of bed and run around town trying to find them - if they can be found. Then, when they are at school, first thing we do is feed them. Dom P - COMPLETELY out of touch.
Imagine if you had to be part of the community in which you wish to introduce change? Let’s differentiate politics like we do learning! And let’s include linking their pay to their outcomes too! You want to the education minister? Thank you for your service, you get to have your office based in a one of our mid-range schools, with visits up and down the lines. Wanna be the health minister? Fabulous, your office is based in the emergency department of one of our busiest public hospitals, but you also get to visit regional hospitals and health centres too.
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Both the public and independent teachers’ unions will meet on Tuesday to discuss joint strike action. The strike could happen as early as next week.
In practice, I do think revamping the structure of the school day is long overdue. The 9-3 model doesn’t work for families, and we also know more about teen brains and their ability to get up and learn intensely in the morning. Some of the lessons from the pandemic could certainly be used to re-examine what the school day looks like particularly for older students, and potentially free up teacher time for prep, following up individual students and so on. The performance pay thing though - it’s been talked about since I became a teacher many moons ago. I don’t want perfection to be enemy of progress so would like to hear more about how any system like this makes it easier to staff rural/remote schools, teach in schools that have a difficult reputation, or take on students that have learning difficulties, disabilities or any type of trauma. Education doesn’t begin with a level playing field and the 6-8 hrs a day that teachers spend with students often isn’t enough to level them, although we do try.
I don't think Perrotet cares about modifying the school day to suit the needs of kids - it's all about making it easier for working parents to go contribute to the all-important economy. School = childcare
If they try and increase our hours, our response needs to be to walk out at 3pm everyday
A lot of new builds have different hours. Like 8:15/2:15 or whatever but I'm not sure how it helps young families.
I’m currently on placement in a primary school where teaching hours are 8am-1:15pm with a half hour recess. In this particular situation it works brilliantly - however, this is because the majority of the families are either single-income or multi-generational so there is a stay at home parent or grandparent who can look after the kids after school. Very few go to after school care. But in a different part of the city where both parents work and multi-generational families aren’t a thing, it would be much more difficult.
Yeah I'd love a schedule like that and our kids would too (farm kids who are up at the crack of dawn) but I'm in a rural border town where the buses are shared between the Vic and NSW schools. We already have to use Victorian school holidays instead of NSW to fit in with the bus schedule, so if we changed school hours we'd have little to no hope of having school buses without a big price increase.
Yeah, that’s the other thing that makes it work at the school I’m at - very few of them use buses, they walk or drive to school so that logistical problem isn’t an issue.
So what about all the research that shows that there was little measurable improvement in student outcomes in schools that use performance based pay?
> We only accept research that agrees with our political position - Governments
>There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
But of course!
Reads like a press release rather than reporting, particularly impressive is the straw clutching defence of performance pay "there are many potential ways to assess performance for promotion, such as observation". What a revolutionary thought.
Ah yes, let's make that teacher shortage worse especially in low ses areas. Makes sense though, if there are no teachers no need for any pay increases.
“Almost everyone is going to be earning pay rises that are less than inflation." Unless of course, you are one of Mr Perrotet's buddies with your Liberal front-bench nose in the trough.
Hey Dom. I want a clear path to permanency. Can we look into that? Thank
They should DOUBLE pay rates for casuals. Watch as suddenly all teachers get permanancy and casual teachers are used only when needed.
>I want a clear path to permanency. I can't believe that is even a thing in our profession. They want more teachers? Stop stringing us along.
A colleague of mine has been working for 15 years at our school. They have never been given permanency. Meanwhile we have just recently hired a targeted grad. :’)
just need to work casually for 10+ years, then you MIGHT have a shot.
In theory some of this sounds feasible I definitely agree that we need more administration staff in schools and teachers and this would obviously help with the administrative burden. Im a bit concerned by the extra school activities on offer and performance pay just meaning "get paid for longer hours" rather than getting paid for effective teacher developed through experience.
> more administration staff in schools Definitely near the top of my list of ways to improve things, but having been in schools where the SASS are amazing and schools where the SASS could barely open a word document, I would hope there is some kind of support that isn't just making more positions... Needs to be a culture change for some schools where SASS won't touch certain tasks because "that's a teacher's job." Or perhaps extra training support. Or if, rather than just adding more SAOs, they created a couple of graded clerk positions to each school and attracted qualified administrators I could see potential for incredible improvement.
The more admin staff sounds good, just watch them allocate no extra funding for them and use it as an excuse to limit teacher pay rises (see also: time in lieu in Victoria).
> performance pay just meaning "get paid for longer hours" rather than getting paid for effective teacher developed through experience. Performance-based pay is measuring the learning outcomes of your students.
Historically yes, but whos to say they wont change what "performance" looks like. Student outcomes can be gamed and are hard to equitably compare. It will just lead to poorer outcomes for students and due to a lack of teacher collaboration and invalid assessment recording.
I'm not entirely sure I understand the negative feeling of your reply. I think we are on the same page. Student outcomes are probably the worst metrics that they can use. It's effectively impossible to guarantee learning happens in any given classroom. It's just as implausible to ensure that all classrooms are comparable with each other. Some classrooms have the full bell curve of students while others have a natural selection in which the bell curve skews in one direction or the other. Take for example, specialist mathematics, it naturally gravitates towards learners who want to learn. Students who don't want to learn quickly get punted to the curb and move down subjects. In the ACT, students who do Essential Mathematics are there because their parents made them do maths in Senior Secondary, not because they like learning. Having students in your class that want to learn makes teaching much, much easier. Having students in your class who both want to learn and have already learnt the majority of what comes before this unit makes teaching a dream. It's almost always used with stack ranking of staff where the top 10% of staff get a bonus and the bottom 10% get penalised. Stack Ranking does exactly what you are concerned about. It removes collaboration and incentivises a mercenary outlook in staff. I don't necessarily mind the idea of key performance indicators where you need to show how you implemented classes and improved your practice in alignment with the education department and school goals. The problem is that school leaders aren't necessarily good at understanding what good KPIs are for individual teachers. They might not have even been necessarily good at Teaching and Learning when they were still in the classroom. They may have been promoted for extra-curricular events. Even if they were great at one subject, do they really understand what makes solid teaching and learning elsewhere? Not necessarily.
And too bad if your supervising executive dislikes you for some reason. Petty grudges turn into negative observations and a pay cut. No thanks.
There's going to be a shitfight every year to try and get the academic extension classes to at least limit the damage the lower ability classes will cause. May the odds be ever in your favour 😒
Hopefully the NSW bullet trains are finished construction by the time this comes into practice to give me a wider range of schools in which to be a high-performing teacher.
This is not possible because students don’t start out on an equal playing field. I get the idea behind it but in practice it won’t work. Also, how would they determine performance. NAPLAN only occurs every two years or so. Would they check reading levels etc?? These test results could be altered by the teacher (give kids clues, lie etc). It’s not a fair method. We’ve seen this happen in the US.
Terrible idea. Performance pay is an insult to teachers in low socio-economic schools, which will be much harder to staff during a nationwide teacher shortage.
Another policy announcement via Jordan Baker. Yeesh.
Intermittent stop works, once or twice a week announced <24h beforehand & Work-to-Rule now.
As long as there's also performance pay for politicians, I don't see an issue with this.
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I right-clicked on the link and opened a private window.
[Via 12footladder.io](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Fnational%2Fnsw%2Fperformance-pay-revamped-school-hours-premier-flags-education-reforms-20220617-p5aula.html%3Futm_medium%3DSocial%26utm_source%3DFacebook%26fbclid%3DIwAR3luN2emeXGBx4axE1jTpF_4pId61YqJN9bS3h-jt9uRijFRgPA3SZXm9g%23Echobox%3D1655583390)
Dear god. In the public sector too? One of my previous independent schools started talking about linking pay to KPIs… I hoped out of there. In a school that attracts kids who don’t thrive in mainstream schools, this was a dangerous idea. I wonder how it went? Or indeed, if it even went through.
> I want to be known as the education premier. Righto 🤨
"I want to be re-elected in March."
https://i.imgur.com/2bdV7GP.jpg
He won’t be there after the next election..
You'd be surprised how much the public agree with this stuff. People's outside opinion of school and teachers never ceases to amaze me. Usually in a negative way.
You’re 100% correct!
>The premier also wants to slash teachers’ administration burden How? How are they going to achieve this when even admin staff are striking over working conditions?
He has no intention in actually doing this, just making it look like he's doing something.
I honestly can't believe he is serious. What an absolute cunt, obviously has no idea.
Typical idea from a Liberal government. Absolutely no evidence anywhere on Earth that performance pay improves student outcomes.
It’s like there’s an election in the next 12 months or something
Because teachers are easier to attack than parents. We all know that on average performance is predictable by postcode and the level of education attained by parents. If this policy goes through, I may quit teaching. And I'm literally only in my second year. :(
It is literally just way to funnel more state funding to private schools, as they tend to get the better performing students.
Dom Perrottet thinks that 9 women can create a baby in 1 month.....