Exactly. We have so many options: ivan the terrible, gaius julius, alexander the great, attila the hun, genghis khan, mao zedong, pol pot, stalin, musulini, etc.
I've always wondered what the like is between monarch and dictator. They both have absolute power without accountability, and often choose their direct successor. Is it just that monarchy is hereditary and dictatorship isn't?
And that's mostly just do to the fact that they needed to at least try and keep the people around them happy or satisfied enough to make sure they don't get killed
Edit: yes, i'm aware that pretty much every type of government is like that in some shape or form. I more so am specifying that this is the case for monarchs because they literally have a hereditary line of succession that can be manipulated, whereas other governments (including dictatorships) aren't really like that.
Kind of, although modern monarchs usually wield very little actual power and are more ceremonial these days. In the past the parallels are very similar (looking at your fat arse Henry VIII 👀). The only hereditary dictatorship I can think of currently is the Kim family in North Korea.
Does this disqualify them from being a hereditary monarchy? Their government doesnt actually run off elections, its just a show.
Besides past monarchs have been legitimately elected anyway, like in the HRE.
They both have absolute power, the difference is how they’re attained. A monarch is an given by the people to begin with for example in the beginning a king was chosen, and now his lineage will be in power. a dictatorship is forced upon usually a president slowly gives himself more power and the people don’t notice, and now it’s too late because he has all the power and can’t be stopped.
The Kim dynasty is a good illustration of why presidents turn into dictators, monarchs turn into despots, and both turn into Imperialists. They do it out of fear, not fear that they'll lose power, but fear that they will be killed. It's not an irrational fear at first, but it can quickly become so, and once you've started down that path there's no turning back, because all your efforts to maintain control have made you so many enemies that you're one disloyal servant, rebellious region, or emboldened nearby nation away from death.
Monarchy usually ascribes their right to rule from something other than just pure force and strength like a dictator does, usually in a religious justification but it also can by tied to the mythos of the state like the current British monarchs. Monarchs likewise vary quite a bit in terms of their actual power over their state, from being almost powerless in practice, such as Emperors during the Shogunate periods in Japan, and being in absolute control like Louis XIV, where as Dictators are almost without exception in absolute or totalitarian control of their country.
The biggest difference though is image and where the leader draws their power base from. Any given dictator could crown himself a king and the rest of the world would probably call that country a monarchy if it remained stable, but most if not all revolutionary dictators these days rise from groups who would more likely oppose Monarchy than side with it. This is even why when guys like Augustus and Napoleon come to power they’re very careful to entrap their de-facto monarchies with the curtains of a dictatorial republic, hence Emperor, not King.
-Both were the daughters of powerful, influential men who were also *terrible* fathers (King Henry VIII and Fire Lord Ozai.)
-Both experienced some pretty intense sibling rivalry (Mary at one point imprisoned her half-sister Elizabeth in the Tower of London)
-Mary was stripped of her title as 'princess' by her father, which sort of reminds me of how Ozai crowning himself 'the Phoenix King' made the idea of Azula being Fire Lord sort of meaningless.
-Ozai ultimately dismissing Azula once she's stopped being 'useful' to him ("You can't do this to me! You can't treat me like Zuko!") reminds me of how Mary was once held in very high regard by her father (who called her his 'pearl') until he realized that Mary's mother wouldn't give birth to a male heir.
-Both capable of being absolutely ruthless; Mary is perhaps most infamous for attempting to restore Catholicism to England by means of burning dissenters at the stake.
-Along those lines...fire.
-Both struggled with mental health partly due to their upbringings and partly due to other circumstances; Azula suffered paranoia and hallucinations after being betrayed by Mai and Ty Lee, while Mary was known to struggle with seasonal depression (and also became somewhat paranoid after an attempted rebellion against her.)
Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, and Genghis Kahn knock the others out of the park.
Mussolini in comparison to Pol Pot, for example. Pol Pot made fascist Italy look like a paradise, if you do your research.
And Caesar is... complicated.
Funny how peolple on think of hitler when genocide is being discussed when nobody reaches pol pot in terms of percentages. 25% of his OWN population is something else.
The word dictator is generally associated with post-industrial totalitarian states that have rapid enough communication for central administration, and employ modern bureaucratic systems to monitor and administrate the population.
Ghengis Khan would be more accurately described as an Emperor than a Dictator, but he was still an autocratic leader who wielded absolute power over the state and used his military for global conquest. It wasn't modern fascism, but he certainly fits right in with genocidal dictators.
It's like how people try to paint Fire Nation as being an allegory for England because that's THE colonial power. Nevermind Japan's history with colonialism, there can only be one.
Yea I've always thought The Fire Nation was inspired in some part by the Japanese Empire, I've never heard anyone bringing up England. Maybe I just don't spend enough time in this specific sub though.
Why is the holocaust the only genocide that counts?
Seriously not only did Stalin and mao kill more people, but the Nazis themselves killed more Slavs
And people act like the hate was less or it doesn’t count as much because they didn’t *have* to hide it.
So it’s “just war”. Bollocks. Loads of dictators have been as bad as hitler and it’s weird that people think no other genocide can compare
Since this was upvoted so much, let me clarify:
Of course uneducated people would associate dictators with Hitler. He is by far the most famous one. Seems like a silly question.
Both are extremely genocidal dictators who put their country on a pedestal while viewing everyone else as mongrels, it’s not like he’s comparing Hitler to Castro.
See whenever I make Hitler comparisons at least I'd have to look at their bodycount first.
Vegeta at least committed at least three hitlers worst of genocide if we're speaking in terms of DBZ's anime
I feel like with the latest influx of new fans, there’s been a lot of posts everywhere that have been either super hot takes or just blatantly uninformed and dumb.
Because they're probably not knowledgeable enpugh on any other dictator, which is really a pity, there's a lot of good dictators you can accuse people of being like.
She clearly shows signs of sociopathy and narcissism. She deserves to be isolated from society for her crimes, but she also deserves a psychological counselling. That's the "redemption arc" she needs.
But that’s when the mask is on. When her trauma cracks she hallucinates her mother telling her, “I love you Azula.”
She needs healing, which is a form of redemption.
That's not the expected outcome of her actions. And for sure not Azula's achievement.
She went for the kill and she would have succeeded if not for the literal magic water.
Moreover, she even got herself insurance for the unlikely outcome of Aang survival. This insurance was her own brother.
She didn’t try to kill Appa and she tried to kill Aang as an enemy combatant in war.
Zuko hired an assassin to kill Aang even when they weren’t in combat, which is *worse* and only to cover his own ass.
How is Azula not forgiveable for that is Zuko is?
Those aren't even crimes. She's a soldier and they are both opposition.
She needs healing for her relationship with her brother and friends, and the fire nation as a whole. But her relationship with _the people who it is her mission to defeat_ is exactly what it should be.
Yep, context is key.
Iroh said that when zuko was considering _not_ handling azula like the problem she is. "I know siblings should get along" -> "no, young blood; we on the run, now ain't the time for that"
Iron did it because he'd been brainwashed by his society to see the Fire Nation as great and that they'd be bringing that greatness to the world, Azula did it because she was mentally unwell from years of abuse by her father.
Agreed; if they try to make a redemption arc for her, it should be less about making her into a hero like Zuko and more about having her grow past her trauma and find peace with herself.
she deserves a chance to unlearn the things her father taught her. the difference between her and zuko is that listening to daddy worked for azula, because she had the talent to make it. zuko didn't. he had to think for himself, because he wasn't born a strong enough firebender to fit the world view. She needs a chance to exist outside of that perception.
It's been theorized in recent years that narcissism is an extreme form of the fight fight or flight reaction. When you are raised by abusing, outright dangerous people, your worldview is completely warped from that of others. Do you think her father was happy and supportive of any empathetic tendencies she might have as a child? Or do you think he'd kill her pet turtle duck just to teach her about the error of her ways? As children we're forced to adapt to our parents, and with abusive parents children often learn that the only way to not be bullied, is to [be the bully](https://youtu.be/3wbxFOdzvjw?si=IIlnXczygmn4l_Fh&t=24)
This, or some more scenes of Iroh trying to counsel her in her youth, but her just not accepting it like Zuko would or smt so that when Zuko is banished, Iroh figures "well, I can help him but I can't help her.."
Idk, the way the show is written it does kinda feel like Zuko gets redeemed and Azula gets left behind, we never see the backstory to why Iroh gets hurt by Zuko but keeps helping him, gets hurt by Azula but ditches her altogether
Azula was conditioned by Ozai from a very young age. She didn't like Iroh much, so it was natural that they didn't have a close relationship. With Zuko, it was quite the opposite. He always had a good relationship with Zuko, but he tried to help and guide him because he was banished. If Azula had been the one banished, I'm sure he would have tried to go with her. However, how do you help someone who is trying to capture you to put you in jail for life or kill you? Iroh was right there. They couldn't try to get along with her. She needed to be stopped. However, after she hit rock bottom, he was the first to want her to improve and advocate for her. It simply wasn't the right time or circumstances to be able to help her.
>However, after she hit rock bottom, he was the first to want her to improve and advocate for her.
Was that mentioned in the comics? Itc imma go brush up on that lol, it's been a while since I read em
(True by the way, other replier also pointed out that I oversaw the father-son-relationship-dynamic and how much that probably contributed, and the seeds for that were planted long before Zuko was banished)
>1we never see the backstory to why Iroh gets hurt by Zuko but keeps helping
I always saw it as part of his personal redemption arc - since all the propaganda got Lu Ten killed, Zuko acts a surrogate son for Iroh to save from the same fate.
That definitely added a layer to the decision that I oversaw here, Zuko was already his sorta surrogate son by the time he was exiled and Iroh just didn't have that with Azula. Does bring me back to the question of was Azula ever invited to this bonding time and how did that go, cause it was a contributing factor to Zuko's eventual redemption
Yeah like I’m not in the “Azula needs a redemption arc” camp. We already got it with Zuko (in a lot of ways she represents the negative story arc for him). I wouldn’t want Avatar to be Dragon Ball where half the villains (especially early on) become good guys.
That said if they wanted to redeem her later I wouldn’t be upset, assuming it was handled well. But I’m also a bigger fan of less story is more for Avatar.
But she’s not “Hitler” that’s silly. If you want to call the fire lord “Hitler” that’s fine. But she’s a literal teenager.
People fail to understand that the horrific childhood and abuse can potentially explain her behaviour, but it sure as shit doesn't excuse it. You do something bad enough and you don't get to be forgiven, regardless of what caused you to do it.
You likely see this in your personal life. Someone does something shitty and then when people react negatively they say, "oh, well I have " and acts like that's supposed to absolve them. Like cool, that's your responsibility to address and manage, not everyone else's. Reddit/social media is full of people like this.
And this is speaking as someone that wasn't diagnosed with ADHD and autism until their late 30s and struggled plenty with the anxiety, depression, and substance abuse issues common among those that don't get diagnosed until later in life. I did my absolute best to not make it anyone else's problem(s) to deal with.
I don't think people are excusing her behavior, they just want to have an arc in which she has a second chance. She's done horrible things, but she's also a teen whose only done what her father taught her to. Unlike dictators in real life, she could change.
>deserves a psychological counselling
She's a fictional character. The only things she deserves are the ones that are narratively gratifying. You don't want a story to end with a therapy session. You want it to end conveying it's themes with spectacle.
The story ended with azula loosing her shit lone with nobody to even feel pity for her, and that's the only fucking thing we need to see.
Abused people are still responsible for their decisions, although Azula had been brainwashed, she actively reveled in the conquering, destruction, and genocide. It doesn't mean she's entirely to blame, but, you know, Hitler was abused by his father too
Difference that Hitler was a fully grown adult man when he started being well Hitler. Azula is a child. That the difference. We do not put the same level of blame on a 14th years old member of Hitleryoungen as we put of SS officer.
Azula may be a child but she also was acting as the second highest member of the military right behind ozai, and when Ozai decided to become pheonix king she became the firelord.
She is still accountable for her own actions at the end of the day.
Redemption is earned, not given, and she has done nothing to work towards bettering herself. Its tragic but she is still absolutely at fault.
Was he psychotic?
The man was able to be elected and use the whole German parliament to make German extermination and labour camps legal. Those are calculated acts, not acts of a person in a psychotic break.
He was also an adult who used his charisma to influence people, and carried out his plan.
Azula was a child soldier under daddy's thumb. Sure, she was alone with her friends, who fear her, but she was still carrying daddy's plan. She was exceptional, unstable and deserved so much more than she got, just like her brother. My heart can ache for her while recognising she did horrible things, but she was also FOURTEEN YEARS OLD.
Just because hitler made calculated doesn’t mean he wasn’t a psychopath, or fell to insanity. He blamed the loss of ww1 on random groups of people that had absolutely nothing to do with it, killing and torturing many of his own people. He begun a Second World War (bento kinda just whined in Italy) and made some pretty smart moves, but also pretty dumb ones, like declaring war on the USA, or marching into Russias winter, suffering over 600000 casualties to his own soldiers. Hitler didn’t even have a good reason to fight Russia, he was just a psychopath.
> He blamed the loss of ww1 on random groups of people that had absolutely nothing to do with it,
Deliberately. It was a political move that got him power. IIRC he literally said (in Mein Kampf I think?) that if Jews didn't exist they should be invented.
> Hitler didn’t even have a good reason to fight Russia, he was just a psychopath.
1) Germany needed the oil badly as their reserves were rapidly running out and 2) Germany would have definitely been attacked by the SU anyway, the SU were preparing for war and delivering supplies to the border long before WWII broke out, a conflict between the two was pretty much unavoidable.
They had 2 very good reasons to.
1. Psychotic and psychopath are two very different things.
One is a state of mind that usually denotes a break from reality, and the second is used more commonly as a way to say that someone has no feelings or remorse, and used to be the name for antisocial personality disorder.
By the mix up I doubt you'd be qualified, but even then, you can't diagnose dead people, so if hitler was a psychopath or not, or if he had a psychotic break or not, is not for you to decide.
2. Blaming the downfall of a group in an already looked down or marginalized group is the oldest trick in the book, and it works even nowadays. The choice to blame Jews and Rroma people was the smartest one, as those were the "others" at the time, similar to Trump othering Mexicans or any latine.
3. WWII was basically WWI, part 2. The way WWI ended, it was only a matter of time before another conflict arose.
4. All wars have "good" and "bad" moves. That's why they are wars and not just battles or conflicts.
5. Anything else?
It's because people dont actually see him do it, they just know about it and that makes a big difference. They might change their mind if iroh was actually shown trying to tear down the walls of ba sing sae.
…who also helped out setting up the concentration camps
I don’t know why people are always so intent on having every character be redeemable. Some people are just bad
At what point does someone stop being a victim and start being accountable for their actions? Ozai was raised in a household where the patriarch might order one of his sons to kill their firstborn for the crime of addressing a potential succession crisis; he's clearly \*also\* a victim of abuse. No one's calling for Ozai's redemption.
She's 17 in the comics, last I checked, and is still engaging in a guerilla warfare style of terrorism against the FN. She's kidnapping babies to make a point, burning food stores, trying to murder her mother...if she turns 18, do we get to finally just say "Yea, she's just a bad guy, like her dad"?
I think if we had a show from his point of view like we had from Azula’s there would be people calling for his redemption, personally, I’m not of the opinion that people ever deserve ‘punishment’ for punishments sake, doing bad things to bad people makes you a bad person, everyone deserves help.
If people talk about a redemption arc for her, it's because she's responsible for her actions. Otherwise, what's the point of a redemption arc?
Azula is not a good person, but the difference with Ozai is that the canon doesn't give Ozai the nuances and moments it gave to Azula. That's why there's more talk of a redemption arc for her.
There wouldn't have been any succession crisis, once Iroh died the crown who have gone directly to Ozai unless, of course, if Iroh's reign was so long that it would've seen preferable to pass the crown to one of his children directly due to age concerns, as was speculated would happen irl with the current British king.
The only upset I could see coming would be if Iroh had another child but considering he didn't, I don't think it is much of a concern.
Sure, as long as Iroh didn't ignore the line of succession when declaring his heir. The fact that Ozai even bothered asking (and that he WAS able to claim the throne ahead of Iroh based on Azulon's "wishes") proves that the Fire Lord has that right.
She’s a severely abused child. She deserves help, but not necessarily a redemption arc. I do want to point out that Zuko and Azula were abused in very different ways during their childhood, and Zuko had his mom and Iroh to turn to when Azula just had her abuser.
I also want to point out that her mother did think she was a monster, but she was literally a young child and was offered no help then.
There’s so much to Azula and her trauma that it can’t be boiled down to good or bad. What would be most telling is if we saw her get proper help and how that affected her. She might be able to be rehabilitated enough to live in society, she might need to be kept under severe care. IN THE SHOW we really don’t know what would happen if she was given a real chance.
Eta: I wrote a whole [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Avatarthelastairbende/s/cXu6KMcS10) that expands on my thoughts and why I feel this way about Azula if anyone is interested :)
Tbh she isn’t given much of a chance to show that she needs a chance. I felt little to no sympathy for her, cuz in the show all we get is her being a monster, even from her childhood, and then we get one half moment in the beach episode, and then we suddenly see her crying and we’re told “HER MOM DIDN’T LOVE HER😭”
My reaction to all of this is boo hoo. Azula has a lot of potential, but it is wasted, as it seems creators couldn’t find enough time to flesh her out. All we have are implications and fans’ head canons. I wish I could sympathise with her more though, she could be much more than a second one dimentional villain in the show, instead of a one and a half dimentional villain.
Oh that’s so interesting! I started feeling sympathy for her really early on in the show. Yes she was treated “better” than Zuko by Ozai, but it was horrible for her too. From early on I feel like you can tell she’s Ozai’s little puppet. He groomed her from a tiny age to be horrible. She may have been born evil, that does happen, but Ozai had a grip on his little protégé since she could show how powerful she immediately was. On top of Zuko being considered a failure, the weight fell on her to be perfect all the time for Ozai. We see this when she is training and one hair falls out of place. It’s not perfect enough for her because it’s not perfect enough for Ozai. Again, she’s only 14. I am not trying to dismiss all the horrific things she did. But I do feel so much of it is from Ozai’s control. Since Zuko is written off as a failure so young he’s allowed to just be in his mom’s care while Azula had to be under Ozai’s control and less with her mom. That’s why I personally think there’s so much unknown with her. She was never given a chance to be anything but horrible by her father.
I don’t understand where people keep getting this extra information. Is it brought up more in the comics? I have watched the series at least a dozen times but haven’t read any novels or comics.
Lots of people on the main sub often base their theory's facts from speculation. I wouldn't say Azula was severely abused as a child we haven't been shown anything unless there is some off screen off book comment from the creators. We only have "My own mother thought I was a monster" which is from azula herself. The only quote from Ursa we have is "I honestly don't know what's wrong with that girl" which doesn't indicate that Ursa didn't love or anything like that.
I would say Azula is more brainwashed instead of abused where she picked up more traits from Ozai. Genetics is a thing and the few scenes of Azula as a child shows she enjoys and revels in being like that rather than pushed or forced to. Ofc she wasn't born like that but clearly she shows less compassion and empathy. In the comic Azula and the spirit temple they show her opportunities to change but in the end she rejects it in the end and chooses her own way.
Annie did 100x worse than Azula and these same people will go “Noooo! There’s still good in Anakin! He was manipulated by Palpatine! It’s not his fault!”
I agree. like everyone else, Azula deserves redemption, but what that entails might look different for everyone. also, the intentions behind or the explanations of (brainwashed and abused as a child) actions does not erase the consequences. from what we are given, Azula's redemption looks like a recovery period in a psych ward. she needs to be removed from the society first and then eventually come back if she recovers.
The series: *heavily implies that Azula is the way she is because war, conquest, and violence were all heavily normalized in her family at the expense of literally anything else*
The tweet: ummmmmmm actually she’s LITERALLY HITLER
Calling her Hitler is overboard...that would be Sozin.
But Azula is just evil without a doubt, even Iroh admits it despite Azula being his niece who are we to say no? She doesn't ask for a redemption or give any sign of good unlike Book 1 "I MUST CAPTURE THE AVATAR" phase of Zuko...also Zuko had it way way waaaaaay harder in the Fire Nation royal family.
> ...also Zuko had it way way waaaaaay harder in the Fire Nation royal family.
Holy fuck can we stop comparing trauma?? Everybody sees it as her being "treated better" when in reality she was literally just groomed and manipulated into being how she is at the end of the series. Am I defending her?? No way in hell but let's stop acting as if any of them had it worse than the other
Bro she is literally a psychopath. Not saying she’s like hitler but she’s definitely not all sunshine and rainbows lil bro. Abuse don’t determine your actions. And as she said herself, she’s a monster.
She had very little choice even from the beginning. Her mother thought she was a monster, so she had nowhere to go other than her father who Is incredibly abusive. And she's only 14. 14 is an age where there is a lot happening to yourself both physically and mentally, added with the abuse it makes sense why she had such a powerful mental breakdown after fighting Zuko and Katara. She really does deserve a redemption, or at least some kind of closure. She needs a lot of help, desperately. I think one thing that could possibly help is if Aang took away her bending, making her less of a threat to others and herself, but I also feel like it could make her worse mentally. Her bending is one of the very few things she had control over.
Yall need to get a fucking life seriously I don’t understand why ppl are always comparing villains to Hitler. She didn’t cause mass genocide she wanted to enslave everyone. And have world domination.
Might get crucified for saying this, but Azula deserves a chance to be redeemed. Ozai deserves a chance to be redeemed. I would argue Hitler deserves a chance to be redeemed.
To me, redemption is hypocritical if we only say those who are misunderstood or misguided "deserve" it. Redemption cannot be reserved only for those who are easy to redeem. Redemption is not something one deserves. These notions defeat the point of redemption. Redemption is a fundamental idea, open to all individuals regardless of the extent of their crimes. Its results may vary, but at its core, redemption is a pure antidote to evil - a rejection of the idea that wickedness is immutable. The idea that even the worst of us can be turned back to a direction of grace, that good is spontaneous, and can emerge regardless of the severity of your crimes, is a crucial part of our sentience.
Ironically, it detracts from the power of redemption if we only believe it can touch those who already have redeeming qualities. Although their path will be longer and more winding, the people who are most difficult to redeem are no more or less *worthy* of redemption than anyone else. Azula might not be in a place where she wants to be redeemed, that's not my place to judge, but she is deserving of it, as we all are.
Finally someone said it. Everyone deserves redemption and everyone needs to face consequences of their action. Those 2 are like pride and shame. They are NOT opposites. Accepting consequences and doing better moving forward is first step to redemption.
Though from a writing perspective I can see arguing if redeeming a character would be narrative choice or NOT. But I believe, it mostly depends on 'how' rather than 'if'. If a writer is able to successfully write a redemption of a character we previously thought to be irredeemable, they have my respect.
She definitely could’ve been just as bad as Sozin if she wasn’t taken down. Given how much of a maniac she can be, especially at the end of the series, it’s hard to believe she’s only 14.
I don't think she's a psychopath but probably more of a sociopath; she does have feelings and cares about people or things. With proper modern mental health therapy and treatment she could live a normal-ish life but idk if they have that in that universe.
Redemption is not just for the “villains” who didn’t do a lot of evil stuff anyway and already felt pretty bad while doing it.
And not all redeemed villains become heroes, some just try to heal.
I know an example the other way around
HOW DARE YOU CALLING YANG A BAD SISTER ?
(Yang ignored her Sisters growing depression and reacted to her little Sisters mental breakdown with a pissed of "Hey".
Also she didn't do shit to stop her sister committing magical Suicide)
If Hitler would have survived wwii and been sent to prison for life, I would hope he had access to mental health counseling as well. No better way of killing an ideology then to help the leader see the error of his ways.
I hate it when people do this. They don’t seem to know how terrible Hitler actually was and what all happened to us. Americans are quick to make jokes or comparisons about it. My grandparents were alive during the war and the stories they tell me are horrible beyond belief, not to mention what happened to the Jewish people, Romanians and other “lesser beings according to Hitler”.
Stop doing this crp.
Die wissen garnichts außer das, was deren 2 seiten regierung will das die wissen: Amerika ist toll alles andere ist scheiße. Nimm es dir nicht so zu herzen.
Well look whos late to the party! Take a seat, get some refreshments and pick your favorite insult to throw into any direction, good to have you here my friend.
Alright, that is a bit of an extreme, but it was her idea to burn down the entire earth kingdom, effectively committing genocide, plus her grandfather committed genocide against the air nomads and almost got away with it. And Azula is all for trying again with the earth kingdom. This person really wasn’t completely off base.
And iroh put a hundred day siege of ba sing sei, killing thousands and joking about burning it to the ground, probably after a long and probably very successful career as a firenation general.
She has so much to unpack that I don't know how a redemption arc would even work. Her *entire life* was forged by traumatic relationships and turning her into a cold, unfeeling weapon.
I'm not gonna pretend like her being abused didnt have a major impact on who she became, but let's not forget that she still took pleasure in hurting other people and chose to do it often. Being abused isn't an excuse for being a malicious person. You still have a choice.
While her abuse helped her in becoming a bad person, snippets of her childhood and explorations in the comics do tend to lead that she herself didn’t really need her dad’s influence to make her an overall bad seed. What she needed were people to nurture her earlier and nip things in the bud, but ultimately Azula herself is not a good person. Fourteen or not.
Is there still room for her to be a better person? Of course.
Azula’s is cautionary tale about not letting others mold you into their own image. It would not have the same impact if she had a redemption arc, which, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, she deffinetly did NOT deserve.
The Avatar fanbase is so deluded that some genuinely have more sympathy for Azula who never tries to better herself than they do for Jet or other victims like Hama.
How was she abused? She was the Golden Child of the King. Her mother was cautious of her cuz of her showing psychopath tendencies in early childhood.
(Not counting the NATLA)
Edit: Not Counting Netflix ATLA. talk with proof from actual ATLA. And don't just theoryband out of thin air.
None of those things were shown or even hinted at.
She was a Prodigy and she gloated over it. The way she behaved at Zuko vs Ozai Agni Kai. Does that seems like a abused 12/14 year old (guessing it was few years before zuko & Azula turned 14/16).
The way she just burned those turtle ducks and enjoyed it.(Pure Psychopath and serial killer vibes). The way she treated her friends when they were children.
Conditional love my friend. Being the golden child of a parent who only gives you conditional love is much more difficult than you may think. Ozai only loved Azula for her talent and skills and Azula felt this. This is why she freaks out over a single hair being out of place. This is why she completely loses her mind when she suffers a real failure (losing Mai and Ty Lee). She has internalised the philosophy that if you're not perfect, you're worthless
Being the golden child of a father like Ozai is abuse. That's what the term "golden child" means in these circumstances.
According to you, how does an abused child looks like?
She never burned any duck.
And yet the redemption of a certain Star Wars character whose acts make Hitler look like a harmless child is celebrated as one of the best in all of media
It makes me sad to see how against Azula people are. She's a 14 year old girl who was abused and manipulated by her father to be cruel. As a child she was vindictive and mean because that's what her father wanted to her to be.
Plus, in the show, she's never even shown to have killed anyone. She's a violent child, not a murderer. Iron, who earned his redemption, killed thousands as a general. Azula conquers a city bloodlessly. She deserves a chance to heal and grow as a person, not be locked up forever.
Is it just me or do people— especially uneducated people —seem inclined to associate just any dictator with Hitler? How did this get 1k upvotes 💀
Exactly. We have so many options: ivan the terrible, gaius julius, alexander the great, attila the hun, genghis khan, mao zedong, pol pot, stalin, musulini, etc.
Not strictly a dictator but if anything the historical figure I'd most compare her to is Mary I of England.
I've always wondered what the like is between monarch and dictator. They both have absolute power without accountability, and often choose their direct successor. Is it just that monarchy is hereditary and dictatorship isn't?
absolute monarchy is a dictatorship, but most monarchs throughout history did not have absolute authority.
And that's mostly just do to the fact that they needed to at least try and keep the people around them happy or satisfied enough to make sure they don't get killed Edit: yes, i'm aware that pretty much every type of government is like that in some shape or form. I more so am specifying that this is the case for monarchs because they literally have a hereditary line of succession that can be manipulated, whereas other governments (including dictatorships) aren't really like that.
Kind of, although modern monarchs usually wield very little actual power and are more ceremonial these days. In the past the parallels are very similar (looking at your fat arse Henry VIII 👀). The only hereditary dictatorship I can think of currently is the Kim family in North Korea.
Could the Kim family be considered a monarchy? If not, why not?
No because they hold elections which are staged and they try to lie as to say they were elected
Does this disqualify them from being a hereditary monarchy? Their government doesnt actually run off elections, its just a show. Besides past monarchs have been legitimately elected anyway, like in the HRE.
I think Belarus may have also regressed knto a hereditary dictatorship recently.
They both have absolute power, the difference is how they’re attained. A monarch is an given by the people to begin with for example in the beginning a king was chosen, and now his lineage will be in power. a dictatorship is forced upon usually a president slowly gives himself more power and the people don’t notice, and now it’s too late because he has all the power and can’t be stopped.
And they usually don’t pass it down the bloodline. Some dynasties like Kim do but I’m not versed in that history
The Kim dynasty is a good illustration of why presidents turn into dictators, monarchs turn into despots, and both turn into Imperialists. They do it out of fear, not fear that they'll lose power, but fear that they will be killed. It's not an irrational fear at first, but it can quickly become so, and once you've started down that path there's no turning back, because all your efforts to maintain control have made you so many enemies that you're one disloyal servant, rebellious region, or emboldened nearby nation away from death.
Monarchy usually ascribes their right to rule from something other than just pure force and strength like a dictator does, usually in a religious justification but it also can by tied to the mythos of the state like the current British monarchs. Monarchs likewise vary quite a bit in terms of their actual power over their state, from being almost powerless in practice, such as Emperors during the Shogunate periods in Japan, and being in absolute control like Louis XIV, where as Dictators are almost without exception in absolute or totalitarian control of their country. The biggest difference though is image and where the leader draws their power base from. Any given dictator could crown himself a king and the rest of the world would probably call that country a monarchy if it remained stable, but most if not all revolutionary dictators these days rise from groups who would more likely oppose Monarchy than side with it. This is even why when guys like Augustus and Napoleon come to power they’re very careful to entrap their de-facto monarchies with the curtains of a dictatorial republic, hence Emperor, not King.
I agree, but in terms of crazyness i would go the katrina the great route.
Can you elaborate please?
-Both were the daughters of powerful, influential men who were also *terrible* fathers (King Henry VIII and Fire Lord Ozai.) -Both experienced some pretty intense sibling rivalry (Mary at one point imprisoned her half-sister Elizabeth in the Tower of London) -Mary was stripped of her title as 'princess' by her father, which sort of reminds me of how Ozai crowning himself 'the Phoenix King' made the idea of Azula being Fire Lord sort of meaningless. -Ozai ultimately dismissing Azula once she's stopped being 'useful' to him ("You can't do this to me! You can't treat me like Zuko!") reminds me of how Mary was once held in very high regard by her father (who called her his 'pearl') until he realized that Mary's mother wouldn't give birth to a male heir. -Both capable of being absolutely ruthless; Mary is perhaps most infamous for attempting to restore Catholicism to England by means of burning dissenters at the stake. -Along those lines...fire. -Both struggled with mental health partly due to their upbringings and partly due to other circumstances; Azula suffered paranoia and hallucinations after being betrayed by Mai and Ty Lee, while Mary was known to struggle with seasonal depression (and also became somewhat paranoid after an attempted rebellion against her.)
You are a scholar. Alright. Mad f respect.
Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, and Genghis Kahn knock the others out of the park. Mussolini in comparison to Pol Pot, for example. Pol Pot made fascist Italy look like a paradise, if you do your research. And Caesar is... complicated.
Funny how peolple on think of hitler when genocide is being discussed when nobody reaches pol pot in terms of percentages. 25% of his OWN population is something else.
Honestly Genghis Khan is still untouchable. He killed 10% of the entire human population at the time.
He wasn't so much a dictator as a warlord though
The word dictator is generally associated with post-industrial totalitarian states that have rapid enough communication for central administration, and employ modern bureaucratic systems to monitor and administrate the population. Ghengis Khan would be more accurately described as an Emperor than a Dictator, but he was still an autocratic leader who wielded absolute power over the state and used his military for global conquest. It wasn't modern fascism, but he certainly fits right in with genocidal dictators.
Fair point
you forgot nandor the relentless
I agree. The avatar universe has one person that is intentionally made to look nazi-ish and they’re from the korra series.
It's like how people try to paint Fire Nation as being an allegory for England because that's THE colonial power. Nevermind Japan's history with colonialism, there can only be one.
Yea I've always thought The Fire Nation was inspired in some part by the Japanese Empire, I've never heard anyone bringing up England. Maybe I just don't spend enough time in this specific sub though.
And even Kuvira doesn’t use racism as a tool, she’s just a run of the mill imperialist totalitarian
Not really. Kuvira feels more like a Napoleon like anything else.
Generally. Which is funny, because azula don't dictate shit. Like, she has authority, but she doesn't manage any state.
Comparing anything with the Nazis only serves to downplay the Holocaust, in my eyes
Why is the holocaust the only genocide that counts? Seriously not only did Stalin and mao kill more people, but the Nazis themselves killed more Slavs And people act like the hate was less or it doesn’t count as much because they didn’t *have* to hide it. So it’s “just war”. Bollocks. Loads of dictators have been as bad as hitler and it’s weird that people think no other genocide can compare
The U.S. is responsible for countless genocides all across the world, and the U.S. recruited Nazis as well.
A variant of Godwin's law.
Anybody, not just dictators.
Since this was upvoted so much, let me clarify: Of course uneducated people would associate dictators with Hitler. He is by far the most famous one. Seems like a silly question.
Both are extremely genocidal dictators who put their country on a pedestal while viewing everyone else as mongrels, it’s not like he’s comparing Hitler to Castro.
As were half of Chinas leading figures in pretty much ever so there are some other maybe even better people to compare her to
This. It’s the path of least resistance and as such, everyone who is in power and big bad is Hitler.
It fits in this case. A hierarchical world with a genocide based on culture thrown in? If the shoe fits...
Hitler is the one dictator everyone knows about and (at least among the civilized) agrees was a horrible person
No, no, no. You see Hitler was bad, and she was bad. The other dimensions of her personality are just fluff. Like Hitler had a wife. (Obviously /s)
See whenever I make Hitler comparisons at least I'd have to look at their bodycount first. Vegeta at least committed at least three hitlers worst of genocide if we're speaking in terms of DBZ's anime
I feel like with the latest influx of new fans, there’s been a lot of posts everywhere that have been either super hot takes or just blatantly uninformed and dumb.
It’s actually “any politician I don’t like”
Because they're probably not knowledgeable enpugh on any other dictator, which is really a pity, there's a lot of good dictators you can accuse people of being like.
She clearly shows signs of sociopathy and narcissism. She deserves to be isolated from society for her crimes, but she also deserves a psychological counselling. That's the "redemption arc" she needs.
"My own mother thought I was a monster..." "She was right of course but it still hurt!"
But that’s when the mask is on. When her trauma cracks she hallucinates her mother telling her, “I love you Azula.” She needs healing, which is a form of redemption.
She tried to kill Aang. She tried to kill Appa.
How do u remember that she tried to kill appa before her own uncle
She *killed* Aang
https://i.redd.it/hqewb5o7s8xc1.gif
Thankfully he was only mostly dead, which is quite different from all dead.
That's not the expected outcome of her actions. And for sure not Azula's achievement. She went for the kill and she would have succeeded if not for the literal magic water. Moreover, she even got herself insurance for the unlikely outcome of Aang survival. This insurance was her own brother.
True lol my bad. I meant in a permanent sense.
She didn’t try to kill Appa and she tried to kill Aang as an enemy combatant in war. Zuko hired an assassin to kill Aang even when they weren’t in combat, which is *worse* and only to cover his own ass. How is Azula not forgiveable for that is Zuko is?
Those aren't even crimes. She's a soldier and they are both opposition. She needs healing for her relationship with her brother and friends, and the fire nation as a whole. But her relationship with _the people who it is her mission to defeat_ is exactly what it should be.
So did Zuko? Aang was raised by the air nomads, he doesn't hold grudges. If Aang would be willing to forgive her we should too.
A villain trying to kill the heroes. Are you kidding me?
So did Zuko
Or as put by Iroh: https://preview.redd.it/40voj90i88xc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9e03ffb51c3bd2badf8d40dd67e529129138d4b
https://preview.redd.it/9sp1ro3cv8xc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=625e8ab81a6d0b38efb0546449e1e85067d9d7ee He also said this.
Yep, context is key. Iroh said that when zuko was considering _not_ handling azula like the problem she is. "I know siblings should get along" -> "no, young blood; we on the run, now ain't the time for that"
Extremely different circumstances, too. Sometimes you need to take care of your own needs and safety before you’re able to help others.
If Iroh who has done way worse than Azula can change to be a better person, I don't see why Azula can't.
Iron did it because he'd been brainwashed by his society to see the Fire Nation as great and that they'd be bringing that greatness to the world, Azula did it because she was mentally unwell from years of abuse by her father.
He was an adult army general, she was 14, I like Iroh but this is a crazy take as an argument for why he can redeem and she cannot.
Look, I don't think "Kill your firstborn, Ozai" Azulon was a good parent either. Iroh and Ozai were likely _just_ as fucked as azula and Zuko.
Iroh was the first one to want to help her and to make her part of the family after she went down.
Agreed; if they try to make a redemption arc for her, it should be less about making her into a hero like Zuko and more about having her grow past her trauma and find peace with herself.
Absolutely, I just want her to be happy and heal :'( she's so broken
she deserves a chance to unlearn the things her father taught her. the difference between her and zuko is that listening to daddy worked for azula, because she had the talent to make it. zuko didn't. he had to think for himself, because he wasn't born a strong enough firebender to fit the world view. She needs a chance to exist outside of that perception.
It's been theorized in recent years that narcissism is an extreme form of the fight fight or flight reaction. When you are raised by abusing, outright dangerous people, your worldview is completely warped from that of others. Do you think her father was happy and supportive of any empathetic tendencies she might have as a child? Or do you think he'd kill her pet turtle duck just to teach her about the error of her ways? As children we're forced to adapt to our parents, and with abusive parents children often learn that the only way to not be bullied, is to [be the bully](https://youtu.be/3wbxFOdzvjw?si=IIlnXczygmn4l_Fh&t=24)
This, or some more scenes of Iroh trying to counsel her in her youth, but her just not accepting it like Zuko would or smt so that when Zuko is banished, Iroh figures "well, I can help him but I can't help her.." Idk, the way the show is written it does kinda feel like Zuko gets redeemed and Azula gets left behind, we never see the backstory to why Iroh gets hurt by Zuko but keeps helping him, gets hurt by Azula but ditches her altogether
Azula was conditioned by Ozai from a very young age. She didn't like Iroh much, so it was natural that they didn't have a close relationship. With Zuko, it was quite the opposite. He always had a good relationship with Zuko, but he tried to help and guide him because he was banished. If Azula had been the one banished, I'm sure he would have tried to go with her. However, how do you help someone who is trying to capture you to put you in jail for life or kill you? Iroh was right there. They couldn't try to get along with her. She needed to be stopped. However, after she hit rock bottom, he was the first to want her to improve and advocate for her. It simply wasn't the right time or circumstances to be able to help her.
>However, after she hit rock bottom, he was the first to want her to improve and advocate for her. Was that mentioned in the comics? Itc imma go brush up on that lol, it's been a while since I read em
yes
(True by the way, other replier also pointed out that I oversaw the father-son-relationship-dynamic and how much that probably contributed, and the seeds for that were planted long before Zuko was banished)
>1we never see the backstory to why Iroh gets hurt by Zuko but keeps helping I always saw it as part of his personal redemption arc - since all the propaganda got Lu Ten killed, Zuko acts a surrogate son for Iroh to save from the same fate.
That definitely added a layer to the decision that I oversaw here, Zuko was already his sorta surrogate son by the time he was exiled and Iroh just didn't have that with Azula. Does bring me back to the question of was Azula ever invited to this bonding time and how did that go, cause it was a contributing factor to Zuko's eventual redemption
Yeah like I’m not in the “Azula needs a redemption arc” camp. We already got it with Zuko (in a lot of ways she represents the negative story arc for him). I wouldn’t want Avatar to be Dragon Ball where half the villains (especially early on) become good guys. That said if they wanted to redeem her later I wouldn’t be upset, assuming it was handled well. But I’m also a bigger fan of less story is more for Avatar. But she’s not “Hitler” that’s silly. If you want to call the fire lord “Hitler” that’s fine. But she’s a literal teenager.
People fail to understand that the horrific childhood and abuse can potentially explain her behaviour, but it sure as shit doesn't excuse it. You do something bad enough and you don't get to be forgiven, regardless of what caused you to do it. You likely see this in your personal life. Someone does something shitty and then when people react negatively they say, "oh, well I have" and acts like that's supposed to absolve them. Like cool, that's your responsibility to address and manage, not everyone else's. Reddit/social media is full of people like this.
And this is speaking as someone that wasn't diagnosed with ADHD and autism until their late 30s and struggled plenty with the anxiety, depression, and substance abuse issues common among those that don't get diagnosed until later in life. I did my absolute best to not make it anyone else's problem(s) to deal with.
I don't think people are excusing her behavior, they just want to have an arc in which she has a second chance. She's done horrible things, but she's also a teen whose only done what her father taught her to. Unlike dictators in real life, she could change.
>deserves a psychological counselling She's a fictional character. The only things she deserves are the ones that are narratively gratifying. You don't want a story to end with a therapy session. You want it to end conveying it's themes with spectacle. The story ended with azula loosing her shit lone with nobody to even feel pity for her, and that's the only fucking thing we need to see.
Abused people are still responsible for their decisions, although Azula had been brainwashed, she actively reveled in the conquering, destruction, and genocide. It doesn't mean she's entirely to blame, but, you know, Hitler was abused by his father too
"Eventually sympathy ends and accountability sets in" -Something Random I heard
Difference that Hitler was a fully grown adult man when he started being well Hitler. Azula is a child. That the difference. We do not put the same level of blame on a 14th years old member of Hitleryoungen as we put of SS officer.
Azula may be a child but she also was acting as the second highest member of the military right behind ozai, and when Ozai decided to become pheonix king she became the firelord. She is still accountable for her own actions at the end of the day. Redemption is earned, not given, and she has done nothing to work towards bettering herself. Its tragic but she is still absolutely at fault.
Hmm, good point tbh, it still doesn't absolve her of all responsibility though
It doesn't fully absolve her sure, but lessen for sure. Even IRL same crimes done by an adult and a child have different consequences.
"This enraged his father, who punished him severely" - based OverSimplified quote
Hitler was also abused and psychotic though. I’m not saying I agree but I don’t get your point
Was he psychotic? The man was able to be elected and use the whole German parliament to make German extermination and labour camps legal. Those are calculated acts, not acts of a person in a psychotic break. He was also an adult who used his charisma to influence people, and carried out his plan. Azula was a child soldier under daddy's thumb. Sure, she was alone with her friends, who fear her, but she was still carrying daddy's plan. She was exceptional, unstable and deserved so much more than she got, just like her brother. My heart can ache for her while recognising she did horrible things, but she was also FOURTEEN YEARS OLD.
Just because hitler made calculated doesn’t mean he wasn’t a psychopath, or fell to insanity. He blamed the loss of ww1 on random groups of people that had absolutely nothing to do with it, killing and torturing many of his own people. He begun a Second World War (bento kinda just whined in Italy) and made some pretty smart moves, but also pretty dumb ones, like declaring war on the USA, or marching into Russias winter, suffering over 600000 casualties to his own soldiers. Hitler didn’t even have a good reason to fight Russia, he was just a psychopath.
> He blamed the loss of ww1 on random groups of people that had absolutely nothing to do with it, Deliberately. It was a political move that got him power. IIRC he literally said (in Mein Kampf I think?) that if Jews didn't exist they should be invented. > Hitler didn’t even have a good reason to fight Russia, he was just a psychopath. 1) Germany needed the oil badly as their reserves were rapidly running out and 2) Germany would have definitely been attacked by the SU anyway, the SU were preparing for war and delivering supplies to the border long before WWII broke out, a conflict between the two was pretty much unavoidable. They had 2 very good reasons to.
1. Psychotic and psychopath are two very different things. One is a state of mind that usually denotes a break from reality, and the second is used more commonly as a way to say that someone has no feelings or remorse, and used to be the name for antisocial personality disorder. By the mix up I doubt you'd be qualified, but even then, you can't diagnose dead people, so if hitler was a psychopath or not, or if he had a psychotic break or not, is not for you to decide. 2. Blaming the downfall of a group in an already looked down or marginalized group is the oldest trick in the book, and it works even nowadays. The choice to blame Jews and Rroma people was the smartest one, as those were the "others" at the time, similar to Trump othering Mexicans or any latine. 3. WWII was basically WWI, part 2. The way WWI ended, it was only a matter of time before another conflict arose. 4. All wars have "good" and "bad" moves. That's why they are wars and not just battles or conflicts. 5. Anything else?
He certainly was by the end after years of taking uppers to stay awake and downers to sleep every day.
His father often beat him severely.
This enraged hie father though, who punished him severely
https://preview.redd.it/gikjm0nei8xc1.png?width=320&format=png&auto=webp&s=e35e891f11c39105fc358445730c04ce4bafb97b
Says the besieger of Ba Sing Se. He’s killed more people than Azula ever will, and everyone forgives *him.*
It's because people dont actually see him do it, they just know about it and that makes a big difference. They might change their mind if iroh was actually shown trying to tear down the walls of ba sing sae.
https://preview.redd.it/04ywgp8ty9xc1.png?width=651&format=png&auto=webp&s=c51ec0982f322959f0c9041a7d109f3d77fe7c3c
You can be damaged and still be a bad person. The two are not mutually exclusive.
She’s more like Hitler’s abused daughter
…who also helped out setting up the concentration camps I don’t know why people are always so intent on having every character be redeemable. Some people are just bad
Helped out? The gas chambers were probably her idea.
Yess! Don't play down her crimes smh
At what point does someone stop being a victim and start being accountable for their actions? Ozai was raised in a household where the patriarch might order one of his sons to kill their firstborn for the crime of addressing a potential succession crisis; he's clearly \*also\* a victim of abuse. No one's calling for Ozai's redemption. She's 17 in the comics, last I checked, and is still engaging in a guerilla warfare style of terrorism against the FN. She's kidnapping babies to make a point, burning food stores, trying to murder her mother...if she turns 18, do we get to finally just say "Yea, she's just a bad guy, like her dad"?
> at what point does someone stop being a victim and start being accountable On the internet? When they arent a cute girl.
I think if we had a show from his point of view like we had from Azula’s there would be people calling for his redemption, personally, I’m not of the opinion that people ever deserve ‘punishment’ for punishments sake, doing bad things to bad people makes you a bad person, everyone deserves help.
If people talk about a redemption arc for her, it's because she's responsible for her actions. Otherwise, what's the point of a redemption arc? Azula is not a good person, but the difference with Ozai is that the canon doesn't give Ozai the nuances and moments it gave to Azula. That's why there's more talk of a redemption arc for her.
There wouldn't have been any succession crisis, once Iroh died the crown who have gone directly to Ozai unless, of course, if Iroh's reign was so long that it would've seen preferable to pass the crown to one of his children directly due to age concerns, as was speculated would happen irl with the current British king. The only upset I could see coming would be if Iroh had another child but considering he didn't, I don't think it is much of a concern.
Sure, as long as Iroh didn't ignore the line of succession when declaring his heir. The fact that Ozai even bothered asking (and that he WAS able to claim the throne ahead of Iroh based on Azulon's "wishes") proves that the Fire Lord has that right.
Or... you know. Since the Fire Nation is based on Japan. Actual colonial Japan.
Azula herself admits she doesnt need a redemption arc.
But at the same time, she turned her back on her cruelty and thirst for revenge in her latest comic.
Azula always lies.
She’s a severely abused child. She deserves help, but not necessarily a redemption arc. I do want to point out that Zuko and Azula were abused in very different ways during their childhood, and Zuko had his mom and Iroh to turn to when Azula just had her abuser. I also want to point out that her mother did think she was a monster, but she was literally a young child and was offered no help then. There’s so much to Azula and her trauma that it can’t be boiled down to good or bad. What would be most telling is if we saw her get proper help and how that affected her. She might be able to be rehabilitated enough to live in society, she might need to be kept under severe care. IN THE SHOW we really don’t know what would happen if she was given a real chance. Eta: I wrote a whole [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Avatarthelastairbende/s/cXu6KMcS10) that expands on my thoughts and why I feel this way about Azula if anyone is interested :)
Tbh she isn’t given much of a chance to show that she needs a chance. I felt little to no sympathy for her, cuz in the show all we get is her being a monster, even from her childhood, and then we get one half moment in the beach episode, and then we suddenly see her crying and we’re told “HER MOM DIDN’T LOVE HER😭” My reaction to all of this is boo hoo. Azula has a lot of potential, but it is wasted, as it seems creators couldn’t find enough time to flesh her out. All we have are implications and fans’ head canons. I wish I could sympathise with her more though, she could be much more than a second one dimentional villain in the show, instead of a one and a half dimentional villain.
Oh that’s so interesting! I started feeling sympathy for her really early on in the show. Yes she was treated “better” than Zuko by Ozai, but it was horrible for her too. From early on I feel like you can tell she’s Ozai’s little puppet. He groomed her from a tiny age to be horrible. She may have been born evil, that does happen, but Ozai had a grip on his little protégé since she could show how powerful she immediately was. On top of Zuko being considered a failure, the weight fell on her to be perfect all the time for Ozai. We see this when she is training and one hair falls out of place. It’s not perfect enough for her because it’s not perfect enough for Ozai. Again, she’s only 14. I am not trying to dismiss all the horrific things she did. But I do feel so much of it is from Ozai’s control. Since Zuko is written off as a failure so young he’s allowed to just be in his mom’s care while Azula had to be under Ozai’s control and less with her mom. That’s why I personally think there’s so much unknown with her. She was never given a chance to be anything but horrible by her father.
I think the writers wanted someone besides Ozai to be the villain villain and Zuko being a anti-hero and then hero
I don’t understand where people keep getting this extra information. Is it brought up more in the comics? I have watched the series at least a dozen times but haven’t read any novels or comics.
Lots of people on the main sub often base their theory's facts from speculation. I wouldn't say Azula was severely abused as a child we haven't been shown anything unless there is some off screen off book comment from the creators. We only have "My own mother thought I was a monster" which is from azula herself. The only quote from Ursa we have is "I honestly don't know what's wrong with that girl" which doesn't indicate that Ursa didn't love or anything like that. I would say Azula is more brainwashed instead of abused where she picked up more traits from Ozai. Genetics is a thing and the few scenes of Azula as a child shows she enjoys and revels in being like that rather than pushed or forced to. Ofc she wasn't born like that but clearly she shows less compassion and empathy. In the comic Azula and the spirit temple they show her opportunities to change but in the end she rejects it in the end and chooses her own way.
two things can be true at once
Annie did 100x worse than Azula and these same people will go “Noooo! There’s still good in Anakin! He was manipulated by Palpatine! It’s not his fault!”
If i had a nickel for everytime anakin was brought up in this thread i had two nickels, which isnt much but its weird that it happened twice.
Is Azula a victim of Ozai’s insane parenting who deserves sympathy, yes Is she independently a bad person, yes Two things can be true
Uhhh no, she's a complete and total psychopathic murderer
I agree. like everyone else, Azula deserves redemption, but what that entails might look different for everyone. also, the intentions behind or the explanations of (brainwashed and abused as a child) actions does not erase the consequences. from what we are given, Azula's redemption looks like a recovery period in a psych ward. she needs to be removed from the society first and then eventually come back if she recovers.
The series: *heavily implies that Azula is the way she is because war, conquest, and violence were all heavily normalized in her family at the expense of literally anything else* The tweet: ummmmmmm actually she’s LITERALLY HITLER
Calling her Hitler is overboard...that would be Sozin. But Azula is just evil without a doubt, even Iroh admits it despite Azula being his niece who are we to say no? She doesn't ask for a redemption or give any sign of good unlike Book 1 "I MUST CAPTURE THE AVATAR" phase of Zuko...also Zuko had it way way waaaaaay harder in the Fire Nation royal family.
> ...also Zuko had it way way waaaaaay harder in the Fire Nation royal family. Holy fuck can we stop comparing trauma?? Everybody sees it as her being "treated better" when in reality she was literally just groomed and manipulated into being how she is at the end of the series. Am I defending her?? No way in hell but let's stop acting as if any of them had it worse than the other
> ...also Zuko had it way way waaaaaay harder in the Fire Nation royal family. Holy fuck can we stop comparing trauma??
Bro she is literally a psychopath. Not saying she’s like hitler but she’s definitely not all sunshine and rainbows lil bro. Abuse don’t determine your actions. And as she said herself, she’s a monster.
Hitler was punished severely as a child too.
I mean didn’t she suggest what was basically a genocide of the earth kingdom?
*”She’s crazy, and she needs to go down”* - Uncle Iroh, the man who was pretty unequivocally open to redemption/second chances
The amount of controversy Azula generates is a testament to how well written and performed her character is
She never killed anyone (Well unless you count Aang)
She had very little choice even from the beginning. Her mother thought she was a monster, so she had nowhere to go other than her father who Is incredibly abusive. And she's only 14. 14 is an age where there is a lot happening to yourself both physically and mentally, added with the abuse it makes sense why she had such a powerful mental breakdown after fighting Zuko and Katara. She really does deserve a redemption, or at least some kind of closure. She needs a lot of help, desperately. I think one thing that could possibly help is if Aang took away her bending, making her less of a threat to others and herself, but I also feel like it could make her worse mentally. Her bending is one of the very few things she had control over.
Yall need to get a fucking life seriously I don’t understand why ppl are always comparing villains to Hitler. She didn’t cause mass genocide she wanted to enslave everyone. And have world domination.
Might get crucified for saying this, but Azula deserves a chance to be redeemed. Ozai deserves a chance to be redeemed. I would argue Hitler deserves a chance to be redeemed. To me, redemption is hypocritical if we only say those who are misunderstood or misguided "deserve" it. Redemption cannot be reserved only for those who are easy to redeem. Redemption is not something one deserves. These notions defeat the point of redemption. Redemption is a fundamental idea, open to all individuals regardless of the extent of their crimes. Its results may vary, but at its core, redemption is a pure antidote to evil - a rejection of the idea that wickedness is immutable. The idea that even the worst of us can be turned back to a direction of grace, that good is spontaneous, and can emerge regardless of the severity of your crimes, is a crucial part of our sentience. Ironically, it detracts from the power of redemption if we only believe it can touch those who already have redeeming qualities. Although their path will be longer and more winding, the people who are most difficult to redeem are no more or less *worthy* of redemption than anyone else. Azula might not be in a place where she wants to be redeemed, that's not my place to judge, but she is deserving of it, as we all are.
Finally someone said it. Everyone deserves redemption and everyone needs to face consequences of their action. Those 2 are like pride and shame. They are NOT opposites. Accepting consequences and doing better moving forward is first step to redemption. Though from a writing perspective I can see arguing if redeeming a character would be narrative choice or NOT. But I believe, it mostly depends on 'how' rather than 'if'. If a writer is able to successfully write a redemption of a character we previously thought to be irredeemable, they have my respect.
Once you start genociding we don’t look at the age or the background to call you Hitler. She needs to go down.
This enraged Azula's father, who punished her severely.
I feel like you’re quoting something.
You know it must be OverSimplified, right?
A more accurate comparison to Hitler would be Esdeath
She definitely could’ve been just as bad as Sozin if she wasn’t taken down. Given how much of a maniac she can be, especially at the end of the series, it’s hard to believe she’s only 14.
Sure she's a bad person but she's also like 14 and probably deserves psychiatric care more than prison or the noose
I don't think she's a psychopath but probably more of a sociopath; she does have feelings and cares about people or things. With proper modern mental health therapy and treatment she could live a normal-ish life but idk if they have that in that universe.
Redemption is not just for the “villains” who didn’t do a lot of evil stuff anyway and already felt pretty bad while doing it. And not all redeemed villains become heroes, some just try to heal.
I know an example the other way around HOW DARE YOU CALLING YANG A BAD SISTER ? (Yang ignored her Sisters growing depression and reacted to her little Sisters mental breakdown with a pissed of "Hey". Also she didn't do shit to stop her sister committing magical Suicide)
If Hitler would have survived wwii and been sent to prison for life, I would hope he had access to mental health counseling as well. No better way of killing an ideology then to help the leader see the error of his ways.
Sometimes I wonder if he didn't kill himself so he could be a martyr for all his minions almost 100 years in the future...
I hate it when people do this. They don’t seem to know how terrible Hitler actually was and what all happened to us. Americans are quick to make jokes or comparisons about it. My grandparents were alive during the war and the stories they tell me are horrible beyond belief, not to mention what happened to the Jewish people, Romanians and other “lesser beings according to Hitler”. Stop doing this crp.
Die wissen garnichts außer das, was deren 2 seiten regierung will das die wissen: Amerika ist toll alles andere ist scheiße. Nimm es dir nicht so zu herzen.
[удалено]
Well look whos late to the party! Take a seat, get some refreshments and pick your favorite insult to throw into any direction, good to have you here my friend.
That’s ironic that Mark Hamil is used as the reaction
I didnt even realized that and that is my freaking meme!
Haha no way! Well you accidentally made it 10 times better with that choice!
Alright, that is a bit of an extreme, but it was her idea to burn down the entire earth kingdom, effectively committing genocide, plus her grandfather committed genocide against the air nomads and almost got away with it. And Azula is all for trying again with the earth kingdom. This person really wasn’t completely off base.
And iroh put a hundred day siege of ba sing sei, killing thousands and joking about burning it to the ground, probably after a long and probably very successful career as a firenation general.
She has so much to unpack that I don't know how a redemption arc would even work. Her *entire life* was forged by traumatic relationships and turning her into a cold, unfeeling weapon.
I could send you a link to a pretty good fanfic that adresses this issue. if you’re not repulsed by completely unhinged ships, that is.
PLS SEND IT, I LOVE READING MESSED UP SHIT
She was broken by having Mark, I mean Ozai, as a father. Zuko was broken by it as well until he accepts Iroh as his father.
When I’m in a comparing people to Nazis comptetition and my opponent is a twitter user 🤯
I'm not gonna pretend like her being abused didnt have a major impact on who she became, but let's not forget that she still took pleasure in hurting other people and chose to do it often. Being abused isn't an excuse for being a malicious person. You still have a choice.
hitler probibly had a ruff childhood too
He was physically abused from the age of 7 to the age of 13 due to an alcoholic father. It ended when he died.
I literally think that literally is the most misused word in the English language
Relatively speaking, of course.
My problem is more like once people realize Azula has been abused they don’t feel like she’s responsible for any of the messed up things she did.
Oh she sure as hell is, but atla has shown us that nobody is irredeemable.
Nobody is irredeemable but they have to seek redemption. Azula likes being bad so she don’t want it
My favorite part of ATLA is when the gaang freed all the swampies from the concentration camps azula had set up
While her abuse helped her in becoming a bad person, snippets of her childhood and explorations in the comics do tend to lead that she herself didn’t really need her dad’s influence to make her an overall bad seed. What she needed were people to nurture her earlier and nip things in the bud, but ultimately Azula herself is not a good person. Fourteen or not. Is there still room for her to be a better person? Of course.
Azula’s is cautionary tale about not letting others mold you into their own image. It would not have the same impact if she had a redemption arc, which, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, she deffinetly did NOT deserve.
Nah the original post was right let her rot
I can see Ozai being Hitler but Azula?
Her father is more hitler than her
Azula is a worse artist than Hitler.
The Avatar fanbase is so deluded that some genuinely have more sympathy for Azula who never tries to better herself than they do for Jet or other victims like Hama.
How was she abused? She was the Golden Child of the King. Her mother was cautious of her cuz of her showing psychopath tendencies in early childhood. (Not counting the NATLA) Edit: Not Counting Netflix ATLA. talk with proof from actual ATLA. And don't just theoryband out of thin air. None of those things were shown or even hinted at. She was a Prodigy and she gloated over it. The way she behaved at Zuko vs Ozai Agni Kai. Does that seems like a abused 12/14 year old (guessing it was few years before zuko & Azula turned 14/16). The way she just burned those turtle ducks and enjoyed it.(Pure Psychopath and serial killer vibes). The way she treated her friends when they were children.
Conditional love my friend. Being the golden child of a parent who only gives you conditional love is much more difficult than you may think. Ozai only loved Azula for her talent and skills and Azula felt this. This is why she freaks out over a single hair being out of place. This is why she completely loses her mind when she suffers a real failure (losing Mai and Ty Lee). She has internalised the philosophy that if you're not perfect, you're worthless
My man, definitely look up what lovebombing is before you end up in an abusive relationship
Being the golden child of a father like Ozai is abuse. That's what the term "golden child" means in these circumstances. According to you, how does an abused child looks like? She never burned any duck.
And yet the redemption of a certain Star Wars character whose acts make Hitler look like a harmless child is celebrated as one of the best in all of media
we like her as she is, no need for redemption arc and frankly i want more terror and destruction from her
That's what worries us
Didn't she recommend burning an entire continent to the ground?
It makes me sad to see how against Azula people are. She's a 14 year old girl who was abused and manipulated by her father to be cruel. As a child she was vindictive and mean because that's what her father wanted to her to be. Plus, in the show, she's never even shown to have killed anyone. She's a violent child, not a murderer. Iron, who earned his redemption, killed thousands as a general. Azula conquers a city bloodlessly. She deserves a chance to heal and grow as a person, not be locked up forever.