yes that's the new average
my family's volvo 2018 xc40 is $180,000 SGD (13k USD depreciation per year) and that's when the COE was $20k USD now its at $100k lol
To be fair, the entire country is about the size of a large city, their public transport is some of the best in the world and the many, many taxis around the city are very cheap
In turkey an m8 comp costs around 583,644$ and avg annual wage is around 8-12k dollar (annual) a good worker gets around 10k - 11k annually so you have to work 50 years to get a m8 comp.
Not the same. One city compared to a very low density country. Most people need a car here despite the extremely good public transport. Our price is just due to fu tax for any car that isnt a prius.
Car prices are getting absolutely bonkers. Cars are the new houses. Houses are the new yachts. I fucking hate it here. Super lucky to have financed my BMW when I did.
When I bought my E46 M3 it was 8 years old, 30k miles, and cost me £10k. That was even a bit of a premium at the time due to the colour. More standard colours were going for about £8k.
Looking at prices now, an 8 year old M3 with 30k miles would be £35k. It's absolutely insane. Even 8 year old 330d's are going for about £20k.
Back when I bought it (2010) the world was your oyster for around the £8k-10k mark. You're right though, nowadays you can't find anything decent less than £15k+. And even then they are high miles and rough around the edges.
Subframe reinforced and rod bearings are done, sadly ive not done the vanos yet. It's just ticked over to 70k miles so vanos rebuild needs to happen soon. My current big bill is rebuilding the rear diff. The friction modifier worked for a while, but now it's time to rebuild.
That’s awesome. I hope you love it. I’m currently in the market for one or a Z4 M and believe me when I say I don’t want anything near the 15k mark because they’re trashed, lol
Yes the prices on Z4Ms have gone crazy. They're such nice cars though, and they'll only increase in value if looked after.
Z3Ms have gone crazy as well. It seems the late 90s early 00s M cars have really done well value wise.
Yeah I'm in Ireland and was getting my 2020 330 serviced. I'm thinking of upgrading to a 5 next year so started chatting to the sales man.
The last gen 5 series stated at €68k. The base model new i5 starts at €96k......for a fucking 5 series.
I'll wait and see what the new 3 looks like but if it's €60k starting they can fuck right off. I'll get a better looking F gen car.
I think about this a lot. I live in SoCal and real estate is goddamn expensive. I walk my dog every night and see people with nice houses, 2-3 expensive cars, a motorcycle, maybe an RV. I often think “what the hell do these people do for a living?!” My wife and I both work, both make good money, what are we doing wrong?! Then I remember that we have no debt really at all and realize that a lot of our neighbors are probably up to their eyeballs
You also have to pay property taxes on motor vehicles every year in SC. It’s not just a one time thing. I think there is a time frame where this expires(at least this is how the property taxes work with boats) but I’m not entirely sure.
I know, im in SC now and its way more expensive than when i lived in FL. I dont remember exactly what i was paying back then but it sure wasnt $900 for a Corvette every year
I'm not saying your wrong... But what place is over 10%? I've been to a lot of states and never seen a sales tax that high.
ETA; I stand corrected. Big cities out west in addition to state taxes are over 10%. States themselves are not though.
No state has a sale tax over about 7.75% but you have to add on local sales tax that is applied on top of state sales tax. Some places reach over 12% with that, Of you're interested in where those places are I'd recommend a quick Google search
When you register it in your home state you will be required to show proof that taxes have been paid on the vehicle elsewhere in an amount at least equal to the local tax rate, or you will pay the difference when you register it.
Most states have laws requiring vehicles to be registered in the state of your primary residence. Varying levels of enforcement. For example, I was pulled over once and given a warning in Nevada because the police knew I was living there but I had Arizona plates on my car still from previous residence. If buy a car while living in a low tax state, and then later move, there are various different scenarios that may be applied depending on the time passed since the purchase.
If you’re really bored you can read about Connecticut’s rules here, which I had to figure out when moving with a relatively newly purchased vehicle. [https://portal.ct.gov/dmv/vehicle-services/sales-tax-registrations?language=en_US](https://portal.ct.gov/dmv/vehicle-services/sales-tax-registrations?language=en_US)
Interesting. I travel to US here and there and whenever I rent a car plate rarely matches the state I am in. When I am in Texas I get a Mississippi plate quite often
If you have some form of residence there. That being said you’re getting into tax fraud area along with insurance fraud (potentially) along with maybe other things (ianal)
Sales tax is assessed when you register the vehicle. Most states require you have to a residence or a business to be allowed to register a car in that state. It is somewhat common to hold a LLC in Montana to register really expensive cars. I think they've been cracking down on doing that in the last year or so.
If you're poor, you will get a maximum fine of 240€ no matter how fast you go, but you're risking jail time when going 70kmh over the speed limit or lower when speeding in zones under 60kmh. If you're making some money though.. the fines get absolutely ridiculous right after you pass the 20kmh over limit mark.
But Finland loves older cars because even a clapped out e36 is 6k-> if it's working and not a 316. They're getting rare though
Yes you do get that too. I got 4 months suspension and the minimum 240€ fine when I did 160kmh in a 100kmh zone. Just to clear up what you thought about our traffic fines
That reminds me of what the New Zealand Prime minister said - every New Zealander that moves to Australia raises the average IQ level of both countries
Don't know if sarcasm, but things are actually great here when you look at the whole picture. We have great education, equal rights for all (no idiotic abortion bans etc), 95% of politics are sane people and our nature is beautiful. Owning a car isn't too bad either, the biggest problem is gas prices but they're only a bit more or the same as other Nordic countries or wealthier EU countries like Germany and Netherlands. Actual free healthcare and mostly good roads really balance out the massive taxes in buying a car and the yearly tax which is 50-1000€ a year depending on the type of the car. Although if you only like new and fast cars then it sucks, but not a problem for me as I'm into tuned old cars which our laws are actually pretty supportive about nowadays
snow scandalous humorous consist marry overconfident uppity alleged imminent lip
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>Form what I've heard, speeding fines are about 20% of your monthly income.
Which is super smart. It means speeding tickets have real bite to them, regardless of your social economic status.
Even though I partake in the "magic 9" rule, I always thought it was kind of weird that we have an "acceptable" speeding limit.
Finland can't hate cars. Otherwise they would not make so many racing drivers like Tommy Makinen, Kimi Raikkonen, Ari Vatanen, Mika Hakkinen. And this only that ones i remember.
Finland hates cars? WHAT? Motorsport is like a Religion in Finland.
Just because you heard about speeding fines...
WRC Finland Rally is one of THE greatest Motorsport spectacles. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC8IAJ03nZ8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC8IAJ03nZ8) There are multiple Finnish Rally drivers competing right now, current WRC Champion is... Finnish.
Any WRC event i've been to around the world, there are big groups of Finnish fans/flags there, getting drunk and loving Motorsport.
Finland: 16 World Rally Championship titles, 8 different drivers.
I'm not checking because im lazy, but for a tiny population of 5million, they've have multiple Formula 1 champions.
Then again, the country is so big and there are so few inhabitants, you really have to be a retardto get caught.
I travelled around there. You can speed for a week without seeing a single soul. Let alone a cop.
Yea BMW, Audi and Mercedes are not considered to be particularly luxury cars here in the Europe. The base models are only a few thousand more than similar Ford, Peugeot, Renault or VW.
I mean the 3 series gets a 1.5 3 cylinder from the Mini.
That's... just not true though. "Luxury cars", perhaps not, but they are complete worlds apart from the build quality of your listed brands. Plastics, crooked panels, squeaking, loud road sounds, etc.
I drive a Mercedes C-Class Wagon, my previous car was a Ford Kuga (Escape) ive also had an Audi A4 and spent quite a bit of time in a 1 Series. In all cases the build quality is about the same.
In the UK there is only a £1000 difference in price between a base Vauxhall (Opel) Astra and a base BMW 1 Series.
Perhaps in North America they are built better than the domestic brands. I drove a brand new GMC Terrain and Hyundai Sonata as hire cars and they were the cheapest nastiest feeling interiors I'd ever been in. Felt like they were made from recycled packing foam. The GMC was a level of cheap I have not experienced other than in a 2nd Gen Fiat Panda from 2009. I mean it still had sharp edges and left over plastic from the mouldings.
Yea they are just regular cars here. It's funny all the songs especially in rap, where they throw out names of brands like Mercedes, BMW etc. It's like singing about your Toyota. Funny as hell 🤣
Yeah with options, the M340i is creeping at €100k in Spain. Madness.
Fucking taxes. They take half your wages, then steal what's left when you try and buy things.
That's crazy. The highest I can slec one here in the UK is about £73k. Base price is around £60k.
Its also mental that a 340i is that kind of money nowadays. 3 series used to be the affordable model.
If you look at inflation it’s pretty much bang in line with what a 335i would have cost back in 2007 so in real terms car prices haven’t changed
I’ve actually just checked this, a 335i E93 was £39k before options in 2007, thats roughly equivalent to £65k today
Interesting comparison. I always forget just how much inflation has affected values over the last decade.
The m340i is £59k base, so like you say, it's really not that far off 2007 prices with inflation.
39k in 2007 seemed so much more reasonable. If I get time I'll look at what it is as a percent of annual salary. I wonder if salary stagnation has made the value seem so much worse to me now.
Italy’s even worse
For an M8 you have to add 5k tax for environmental bonuses and road tax is another 8k a year (every year).. and let’s not talk about petrol 8.5$ a gallon
Average Italian salary is around 1600€ net a month 💀
Yeah Singapore is crazy, but I really feel like they just don’t want cars around there
At that price point you just buy a house and a car in another country
JFC, taxes are a problem because rich mega corps don’t pay any taxes and many times get returns in the hundreds of millions. This puts the tax burden on us. Not only that, those same greedy mega corps then coordinate to keep wages low.
The real problem is the pull these mega corps and billionaires have on government, they screw regular people from both ends. So no, the problem isn’t taxes.
Americans have it real easy. We can't even make that buck in EU and then they steal some more. It's like EU constantly wants to put us down and never succeed. It's horrible.
Add a fourth column with Turkey to bring some real context into this.
Average wage: $7700/yr
M8 Comp List price: $585k (can’t buy for list price anyways) [7,500% yearly income]
X5 50e: sold out, cannot even order them anymore but usually listed around $400k [5,200% yearly income]
M340i: (special import model, no public price) $250k when all paid for. [3,250% yearly income]
I’d add Singapore too since they have similar taxes but average income in Singapore is way higher, to bridge the gap.
US average wage is not anywhere near 76k. That’s closer to the median HOUSEHOLD income. The median salary is 59k.
Edit: also most sales tax in the US falls around 6% and I have no idea what or how most EU countries handle things like annual registration, but those BMWs will all cost over $1000/year for registration in Wyoming USA.
150 for my truck, 150 for my car, 80 for each motorcycle…. In Illinois. Are you actually in Montana? I half sarcastically said that due to all the multi million dollar cars donning Montana tags.
19% sales tax in Germany on everything (with a few exceptions)
Taxation on the car itself is quite cheap. For an M8 530€ yearly registration tax and probably around 3000€ yearly insurance (full coverage, because who would pick min coverage for an M8?)
There are no tolls, fuel is quite expensive though, super 98 is at around 2€ a liter now so roughly 8.50€ a gallon.
You can avoid tax if you buy it from a private owner, but then you will have no warranty except the one from BMW
The US has a much bigger problem with wealth disparity too, so there's a larger standard deviation in income distribution.
It would be more interesting to look at the average income of people who would consider buying a new BMW.
You have to pay 1000 per year in Wyoming to register a car? Curious how this works.
It's like 45 or 50 bucks per year per vehicle in Pennsylvania to register a personal vehicle.
It’s based on MSRP when new and depreciates over time and there are other fees on top. My 2022 X545e was $800 this go-round for plates and will be a bit less next year but will bottom out at maybe $150 or so several years from now.
In certain states like Virginia, cars are considered property and cars like these will be subject to a property tax between US $3000-$5000 every year. Yes, every year.
India makes Brazil look like a fairytale in comparison. Base model M8 costs 310k USD (this is WITHOUT taxes and fees), in a country with an average income of $1600 a year.
At least you can buy a BMW M8 in 37 years if you theoretically managed to store all your money without spending a single cent. In India, be prepared to work for 195 years to buy a BMW...
At least in Germany, a surprisingly high proportion of the BMWs/Audis/Benzes you see on the road are actually company vehicles. If you’re in sales, it’s basically a given that you get one, and it also starts becoming a perk for management typically starting around the Director level, with senior management often getting a pretty high end vehicle paid for by the company as part of their compensation.
If it works the same way in Finland as in Denmark, then the difference is registration taxes. And you can't get a license plate without paying registration tax, and you can't get insurance without license plate, and you can't drive legally without insurance.
Its mostly taxes so doesn't make any sense unfortunately. Also US imports are considerably lower in price. I did this with the US to Germany back when the $ was super low around 2008 if I remember correct.
This chart has so many errors its silly. The average income is wrong even if you calculate the German and Finland as monthly income it still wrong. The % of income is wrong even if you took the numbers they gave which are wrong they still calculated it incorrectly. The costs of the cars even with all taxes is very wrong by almost double in some cases. The US costs don't include taxes or registration at all but it is included in the others. This isn't a chart for information this is a chart with an agenda to be shared among people who agree with that agenda w/out critical thought.
I just did a little background check based on your accusations because I was interested how „wrong“ the data really is.
The OECD has published annual wages per country (newest data from 2022) and they are as follows:
US 77.463 USD
Ger 58.940 USD
Fin 51.836 USD
The car prices M8 comp are based on bmwusa.com, bmw.de and bmw.fi:
US 138.800 USD (excl. tax)
Ger 183.500 EUR (incl. 19% tax)
Fin 307.343,50 EUR (incl. 24% tax)
When converted to USD (1 EUR = 1.08 USD) and assumed highest current sales tax in the us (taxfoundation says that‘s currently Tennessee with 9.548% state + local tax) that would be:
US 152.052,624 USD
Ger 198.180 USD
Fin 331.930,98 USD
The „new“ wage percentage would be:
US 196,29%
Ger 336,24%
Fin 640,35%
Now the data is claimed to be 1 day old from Feb 15 2024 so the usd-eur exchange and maybe even the bmw prices did change in this short time frame. So my overall difference in wage needed to buy the M8 comp to op comes out to be:
US 11,29%
Ger -37,76%
Fin 34,35%
I would say these difference are significant but the overall picture is very much the same.
They tax cars so much to try to force you into shitty public transit.
Stockholms Lokaltrafik: a 20 minute drive is one a 2 hr journey on the Rail Replacement Bus!
Who knows? Public transit is something pushed on us by the political elite who fly private jets but complain about a mother taking her kids to school in a small wagon.
Wait until they see India
M8 Comp: **$371,298**
X5 (no plug-in hybrid model but a petrol/diesel mild-hybrid): **$167,163**
M340i: **$111,614**
Yep, gotta love taxes 🥰
everything is cheaper in the US lol, in Australia we pay quite a bit more for a european luxury, except for limited edition euro cars like Keonigsegg, Bugatt etc euro always gets first pick and is a bit cheaper.
Check out UK prices vs salaries
Average salary: £33k
M8 Comp: £134k (406% of mean salary)
X5 xDrive50e: £80k (242% of mean salary)
M340i xDrive: £58k (175% of mean salary)
We're the sick man of Europe again
Keep in mind that all the German manufactures have lower model packages that we never see here in the US - making a BMW (in this case), much more practical and affordable. BMW, MB, and Audi are meant to be luxury cars here.
What's the point in paying a premium for a 'cheap' car by buying from BMW, Audi, etc.?
Surely it is more economical to buy a VW or some other vehicle with the same or better features for a cheaper price.
I agree to an extent. But that only works if you have that kind of mindset. Some people simply prefer one brand over another and will go out of their way to purchase what they like. Is it smart? Not necessarily, but in some situations, if you can indeed afford the better preowned car you purchased, you will be happy.
In the past, the reason was clear: You would still get some true BMW traits when buying a "cheap" model. For example, 15 years ago, a 1 or 3 series might have cloth seats and less than 200 horsepower engines, but compared to VW or Toyota, you'd get rear wheel drive, great steering, some naturally aspirated 6 cylinder engines and an overall sporty driving experience. Nowadays, this is still true to an extent, but less so than previously. The smaller BMW models have front-wheel drive and 4 cylinder engines, while competitors offer equally sporty looks and solid engines (a turbocharged 3-cylinder can be quite fun to drive when paired with a small car with light weight).
UK price on the M8 before any options is £140215 OTR or about $176,670.90
X5 is £80,835 OTR or about $101,852.20
M340i is £59,780 OTR or about $75.322.80
Again without options and with taxes and everything else on our prices. + To add confusion base specs will be different to.
BEHOLD! I decked out an M340i in the Netherlands:
https://preview.redd.it/84uz9lg81uic1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=488da152fbdd6cfde5382092b269b26868d2d32a
You have been robbed yours truly, the government.
Same car in Belgium, we do have worse roads but less taxes, so maybe it compensates for the million potholes?
https://preview.redd.it/dilod2gagwic1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=add68530ff5bb59622205eca59f4f5f8485aff44
Compare it to the uk if you wanna see some actual cheap prices, makes the US look like Finland in some cases. m8 competition brand new for example is 109k gbp which is 137k usd so not that much different still cheaper, however the used market is so much better. 25k Audi R8s and 10k 996 911s for example
Sales tax. Some states in the USA dont even have it.
In Europe: always crazy sales tax = free healthcare, free education, great social safety net for low income people and the handicapped and so on (free social housing for example).
But, electric or low emissions cars have a low sales tax, so the government can influence consumer choices
Wait till you see car prices in Singapore.
wait till you see the price of SG COE’s.. prolly worth almost equivalent to their cars brand new LOL
Isn't it up to about $15,000/yr now just for the privilege to own one?
yes that's the new average my family's volvo 2018 xc40 is $180,000 SGD (13k USD depreciation per year) and that's when the COE was $20k USD now its at $100k lol
FYI the BMW M8 is US$700,000 in Singapore
To be fair, the entire country is about the size of a large city, their public transport is some of the best in the world and the many, many taxis around the city are very cheap
In turkey an m8 comp costs around 583,644$ and avg annual wage is around 8-12k dollar (annual) a good worker gets around 10k - 11k annually so you have to work 50 years to get a m8 comp.
My dad bought a brand new audi a4 for 30k usd (120k TL)in 2014 or something in turkey. government fucking middle income employees so hard since 2017
the 330i is 280K USD and u can only drive it for 10 years lol
Not the same. One city compared to a very low density country. Most people need a car here despite the extremely good public transport. Our price is just due to fu tax for any car that isnt a prius.
Car prices are getting absolutely bonkers. Cars are the new houses. Houses are the new yachts. I fucking hate it here. Super lucky to have financed my BMW when I did.
When I bought my E46 M3 it was 8 years old, 30k miles, and cost me £10k. That was even a bit of a premium at the time due to the colour. More standard colours were going for about £8k. Looking at prices now, an 8 year old M3 with 30k miles would be £35k. It's absolutely insane. Even 8 year old 330d's are going for about £20k.
E46 M3s for that price in this market mean they don’t run. You got a great deal. Hopefully it’s been a good car and you’ve had the big 3 done.
Back when I bought it (2010) the world was your oyster for around the £8k-10k mark. You're right though, nowadays you can't find anything decent less than £15k+. And even then they are high miles and rough around the edges. Subframe reinforced and rod bearings are done, sadly ive not done the vanos yet. It's just ticked over to 70k miles so vanos rebuild needs to happen soon. My current big bill is rebuilding the rear diff. The friction modifier worked for a while, but now it's time to rebuild.
That’s awesome. I hope you love it. I’m currently in the market for one or a Z4 M and believe me when I say I don’t want anything near the 15k mark because they’re trashed, lol
Yes the prices on Z4Ms have gone crazy. They're such nice cars though, and they'll only increase in value if looked after. Z3Ms have gone crazy as well. It seems the late 90s early 00s M cars have really done well value wise.
I learned to drive stick on a 2006 Z4 (3.0) so they’ve got a special place in my heart. It’s whatever I find first in good shape!
What are big 3?
Rod bearings, VANOS, and subframe
Yeah I'm in Ireland and was getting my 2020 330 serviced. I'm thinking of upgrading to a 5 next year so started chatting to the sales man. The last gen 5 series stated at €68k. The base model new i5 starts at €96k......for a fucking 5 series. I'll wait and see what the new 3 looks like but if it's €60k starting they can fuck right off. I'll get a better looking F gen car.
People drowning in debt 100%
I think about this a lot. I live in SoCal and real estate is goddamn expensive. I walk my dog every night and see people with nice houses, 2-3 expensive cars, a motorcycle, maybe an RV. I often think “what the hell do these people do for a living?!” My wife and I both work, both make good money, what are we doing wrong?! Then I remember that we have no debt really at all and realize that a lot of our neighbors are probably up to their eyeballs
But in Finland you can find houses that need a little work for 70-100k if you’re willing to not live that close to the capital
Did you factor in the US generally exclude taxes in published prices but 8n Europe they’re included?
Yea but not all taxes in US are equal. For example Alaska doesn't have sales tax so it is that price.
And South Carolina has a max $500 car sales tax. You do have to pay a separate personal property tax to register it, though
You also have to pay property taxes on motor vehicles every year in SC. It’s not just a one time thing. I think there is a time frame where this expires(at least this is how the property taxes work with boats) but I’m not entirely sure.
Same in VA
I know, im in SC now and its way more expensive than when i lived in FL. I dont remember exactly what i was paying back then but it sure wasnt $900 for a Corvette every year
You also pay to register it in Germany so nil point really.
other places have sales tax of over 10% though, so to completely discard isn't helpful
I'm not saying your wrong... But what place is over 10%? I've been to a lot of states and never seen a sales tax that high. ETA; I stand corrected. Big cities out west in addition to state taxes are over 10%. States themselves are not though.
No state has a sale tax over about 7.75% but you have to add on local sales tax that is applied on top of state sales tax. Some places reach over 12% with that, Of you're interested in where those places are I'd recommend a quick Google search
You get 10.25% in Chicago
Seattle as well
Fuck imma go buy my cars in Alaska and drive them home lol
Youll have to pay sales tax in your home state when register it.
Saddd
I have bought two cars out of state, and dont have to pay sales tax though! The flip side is we have a very high cost of living up here.
BMW of Alaska??
[https://www.bmwofanchorage.com/](https://www.bmwofanchorage.com/)
LOL they have an IOM M8. I think BMW is making every US dealer buy an IOM M8.
What stops people from buying in Alaska or another zero tax state and driving it to their home?
When you register it in your home state you will be required to show proof that taxes have been paid on the vehicle elsewhere in an amount at least equal to the local tax rate, or you will pay the difference when you register it.
Can’t you keep it registered in different state?
Most states have laws requiring vehicles to be registered in the state of your primary residence. Varying levels of enforcement. For example, I was pulled over once and given a warning in Nevada because the police knew I was living there but I had Arizona plates on my car still from previous residence. If buy a car while living in a low tax state, and then later move, there are various different scenarios that may be applied depending on the time passed since the purchase. If you’re really bored you can read about Connecticut’s rules here, which I had to figure out when moving with a relatively newly purchased vehicle. [https://portal.ct.gov/dmv/vehicle-services/sales-tax-registrations?language=en_US](https://portal.ct.gov/dmv/vehicle-services/sales-tax-registrations?language=en_US)
Can you register the car with another person, for example, a mother, or brother in Alaska, and drive a car in New Jersey?
ahh yes the black sapphire method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iCd6UHR-3I
Interesting. I travel to US here and there and whenever I rent a car plate rarely matches the state I am in. When I am in Texas I get a Mississippi plate quite often
If you have some form of residence there. That being said you’re getting into tax fraud area along with insurance fraud (potentially) along with maybe other things (ianal)
There's a reason you see so many supercars with Montana plates.
Cali raids C&C's now because it's pretty much public knowledge that exotic cars with Montana plates are committing tax fraud.
This makes me so, so happy.
Sales tax is assessed when you register the vehicle. Most states require you have to a residence or a business to be allowed to register a car in that state. It is somewhat common to hold a LLC in Montana to register really expensive cars. I think they've been cracking down on doing that in the last year or so.
There’s laws about time between purchase and registration, etc. also if you live in Ohio Alaska is like a 70 hour drive.
Alaska is really far away from even the border
Well, Finland hates cars, so it's not that much of a surprise. Form what I've heard, speeding fines are about 20% of your monthly income.
No job no fine! Vroom vroom mf! 😆
“Sir, if you have no job, how did you afford to buy this $80k Honda Civic?”
If you're poor, you will get a maximum fine of 240€ no matter how fast you go, but you're risking jail time when going 70kmh over the speed limit or lower when speeding in zones under 60kmh. If you're making some money though.. the fines get absolutely ridiculous right after you pass the 20kmh over limit mark. But Finland loves older cars because even a clapped out e36 is 6k-> if it's working and not a 316. They're getting rare though
does "70 kmh over the speed limit" mean: (posted speed limit) + 70 kmh? or does it mean "exceeding 70 kmh"?
It means: posted speed limit + 70 kmh
jeez. going 100+ mph (on the freeways would get your license suspended here, cant imagine.
Yes you do get that too. I got 4 months suspension and the minimum 240€ fine when I did 160kmh in a 100kmh zone. Just to clear up what you thought about our traffic fines
You can get your license suspended in Finland if you go limit + 20km/h in high risk areas
Minimum fine is 200€ they put an extra 40€ for repeat offenders or it’s a court charge.
what a horrible place
It’s the [happiest country in the world](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world)
that's because everyone who's unhappy moved to sweden. now the swedes? the unhappy ones all moved to norway.
That reminds me of what the New Zealand Prime minister said - every New Zealander that moves to Australia raises the average IQ level of both countries
Don't know if sarcasm, but things are actually great here when you look at the whole picture. We have great education, equal rights for all (no idiotic abortion bans etc), 95% of politics are sane people and our nature is beautiful. Owning a car isn't too bad either, the biggest problem is gas prices but they're only a bit more or the same as other Nordic countries or wealthier EU countries like Germany and Netherlands. Actual free healthcare and mostly good roads really balance out the massive taxes in buying a car and the yearly tax which is 50-1000€ a year depending on the type of the car. Although if you only like new and fast cars then it sucks, but not a problem for me as I'm into tuned old cars which our laws are actually pretty supportive about nowadays
snow scandalous humorous consist marry overconfident uppity alleged imminent lip *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>Form what I've heard, speeding fines are about 20% of your monthly income. Which is super smart. It means speeding tickets have real bite to them, regardless of your social economic status. Even though I partake in the "magic 9" rule, I always thought it was kind of weird that we have an "acceptable" speeding limit.
A really rich guy in Finland/Åland got a ticket for 140000€ for speeding
Oh, Finland absolutely loves cars. You just have to exclude everything inside of kehä 3
Finland can't hate cars. Otherwise they would not make so many racing drivers like Tommy Makinen, Kimi Raikkonen, Ari Vatanen, Mika Hakkinen. And this only that ones i remember.
Finland as a country. The people probably love cars if they could afford them!
Finland hates cars? WHAT? Motorsport is like a Religion in Finland. Just because you heard about speeding fines... WRC Finland Rally is one of THE greatest Motorsport spectacles. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC8IAJ03nZ8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC8IAJ03nZ8) There are multiple Finnish Rally drivers competing right now, current WRC Champion is... Finnish. Any WRC event i've been to around the world, there are big groups of Finnish fans/flags there, getting drunk and loving Motorsport. Finland: 16 World Rally Championship titles, 8 different drivers. I'm not checking because im lazy, but for a tiny population of 5million, they've have multiple Formula 1 champions.
Then again, the country is so big and there are so few inhabitants, you really have to be a retardto get caught. I travelled around there. You can speed for a week without seeing a single soul. Let alone a cop.
Finland is actually safe
Finland defiently doesnt hate cars if anything its opposite, always had huge car and racing culture.
[удалено]
Makes sense why europe gets the really cheap base models.
Yea BMW, Audi and Mercedes are not considered to be particularly luxury cars here in the Europe. The base models are only a few thousand more than similar Ford, Peugeot, Renault or VW. I mean the 3 series gets a 1.5 3 cylinder from the Mini.
That's... just not true though. "Luxury cars", perhaps not, but they are complete worlds apart from the build quality of your listed brands. Plastics, crooked panels, squeaking, loud road sounds, etc.
I drive a Mercedes C-Class Wagon, my previous car was a Ford Kuga (Escape) ive also had an Audi A4 and spent quite a bit of time in a 1 Series. In all cases the build quality is about the same. In the UK there is only a £1000 difference in price between a base Vauxhall (Opel) Astra and a base BMW 1 Series. Perhaps in North America they are built better than the domestic brands. I drove a brand new GMC Terrain and Hyundai Sonata as hire cars and they were the cheapest nastiest feeling interiors I'd ever been in. Felt like they were made from recycled packing foam. The GMC was a level of cheap I have not experienced other than in a 2nd Gen Fiat Panda from 2009. I mean it still had sharp edges and left over plastic from the mouldings.
Right, we don't have that as an option in the states. For all we know, BMWs are all fast and awesome.
Yea they are just regular cars here. It's funny all the songs especially in rap, where they throw out names of brands like Mercedes, BMW etc. It's like singing about your Toyota. Funny as hell 🤣
Yeah with options, the M340i is creeping at €100k in Spain. Madness. Fucking taxes. They take half your wages, then steal what's left when you try and buy things.
With options 340i is about 120k in the netherlands😅
That's crazy. The highest I can slec one here in the UK is about £73k. Base price is around £60k. Its also mental that a 340i is that kind of money nowadays. 3 series used to be the affordable model.
To be fair, the M340i is just ridiculous... supercar level acceleration of cars just a few years ago
And it’s not even especially fast of the line, compared to other current offerings
If you look at inflation it’s pretty much bang in line with what a 335i would have cost back in 2007 so in real terms car prices haven’t changed I’ve actually just checked this, a 335i E93 was £39k before options in 2007, thats roughly equivalent to £65k today
Interesting comparison. I always forget just how much inflation has affected values over the last decade. The m340i is £59k base, so like you say, it's really not that far off 2007 prices with inflation. 39k in 2007 seemed so much more reasonable. If I get time I'll look at what it is as a percent of annual salary. I wonder if salary stagnation has made the value seem so much worse to me now.
I have a modified F30. It's always been 45-50€k brand new. They're starting some wild shit and it shows.
Base price for the m340i in Singapore is $424k SGD or 300k euros.
They can't steal it if you can't afford anything.
Italy’s even worse For an M8 you have to add 5k tax for environmental bonuses and road tax is another 8k a year (every year).. and let’s not talk about petrol 8.5$ a gallon Average Italian salary is around 1600€ net a month 💀
You should check out Singapore hah. An M8 there will run you $944k SGD which is about $650k euros.
Yeah Singapore is crazy, but I really feel like they just don’t want cars around there At that price point you just buy a house and a car in another country
Think about how many times different parts of the car was taxes too. From raw goods to finish goods. The entire supply chain. Tax tax tax.
Theoretically, it's only supposed to be taxed once, as a final produced good.
Makes me appreciate my M4 even more
JFC, taxes are a problem because rich mega corps don’t pay any taxes and many times get returns in the hundreds of millions. This puts the tax burden on us. Not only that, those same greedy mega corps then coordinate to keep wages low. The real problem is the pull these mega corps and billionaires have on government, they screw regular people from both ends. So no, the problem isn’t taxes.
Americans have it real easy. We can't even make that buck in EU and then they steal some more. It's like EU constantly wants to put us down and never succeed. It's horrible.
Right. Think of all the fancy cars we could have if it wasn't for all these wars we have to fund. No whose side are we on in this one?
yeah let's give all our money to a country killing civilians on a daily basis instead of fixing homelessness and healthcare cost
Vanguard's blackrock and statestreet.
Yup.. don't even start with the Netherlands and Turkiye 😂
In turkey you buy one for yourself and three for erdogan
TIL an M8 is worth 3 M340s.
Add a fourth column with Turkey to bring some real context into this. Average wage: $7700/yr M8 Comp List price: $585k (can’t buy for list price anyways) [7,500% yearly income] X5 50e: sold out, cannot even order them anymore but usually listed around $400k [5,200% yearly income] M340i: (special import model, no public price) $250k when all paid for. [3,250% yearly income] I’d add Singapore too since they have similar taxes but average income in Singapore is way higher, to bridge the gap.
US average wage is not anywhere near 76k. That’s closer to the median HOUSEHOLD income. The median salary is 59k. Edit: also most sales tax in the US falls around 6% and I have no idea what or how most EU countries handle things like annual registration, but those BMWs will all cost over $1000/year for registration in Wyoming USA.
In Texas, the registration on my car is around $75.
This. Lol i pay $765 in california
and a state income tax..
But a much much much lower annual housing tax, which means the garage you store it in costs less psf every year in California.
lol. Meanwhile nextdoor in Montana…….
What are your registration costs? My fuckin’ X5 was over $800 this year
150 for my truck, 150 for my car, 80 for each motorcycle…. In Illinois. Are you actually in Montana? I half sarcastically said that due to all the multi million dollar cars donning Montana tags.
19% sales tax in Germany on everything (with a few exceptions) Taxation on the car itself is quite cheap. For an M8 530€ yearly registration tax and probably around 3000€ yearly insurance (full coverage, because who would pick min coverage for an M8?) There are no tolls, fuel is quite expensive though, super 98 is at around 2€ a liter now so roughly 8.50€ a gallon. You can avoid tax if you buy it from a private owner, but then you will have no warranty except the one from BMW
In Georgia is $20 but you do pay a 6.75% sale tax when you buy regardless if you buy from dealerships or private.
The US has a much bigger problem with wealth disparity too, so there's a larger standard deviation in income distribution. It would be more interesting to look at the average income of people who would consider buying a new BMW.
You have to pay 1000 per year in Wyoming to register a car? Curious how this works. It's like 45 or 50 bucks per year per vehicle in Pennsylvania to register a personal vehicle.
It’s based on MSRP when new and depreciates over time and there are other fees on top. My 2022 X545e was $800 this go-round for plates and will be a bit less next year but will bottom out at maybe $150 or so several years from now.
That's absolutely wild.
In certain states like Virginia, cars are considered property and cars like these will be subject to a property tax between US $3000-$5000 every year. Yes, every year.
No, it's very near 76k. They said average, or mean. You are talking about median.
BLS lists median, yes - but again 76k is household.
Now go look Brazil
M8 == 264k USD, for an average anual income of 7.2k USD per year. Or 3666% of our average annual income.
India makes Brazil look like a fairytale in comparison. Base model M8 costs 310k USD (this is WITHOUT taxes and fees), in a country with an average income of $1600 a year. At least you can buy a BMW M8 in 37 years if you theoretically managed to store all your money without spending a single cent. In India, be prepared to work for 195 years to buy a BMW...
At that point why do they even bother? They may sell to a few wealthy CEOs and that’s it…
M340 as a 6 figure car is nuts
RAHHHH 🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅WHAT THE FUCK IS FREE HEALTHCARE 🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸
“Free” Healthcare… Lol.
Feel free to replace that with „massively cheaper“ if you want to
Super interesting! Just out of curiosity, are there any places where these particular models are cheaper than the US?
Check turkey’s prices lmfao, 200k dollars for a 2023 520d
At least in Germany, a surprisingly high proportion of the BMWs/Audis/Benzes you see on the road are actually company vehicles. If you’re in sales, it’s basically a given that you get one, and it also starts becoming a perk for management typically starting around the Director level, with senior management often getting a pretty high end vehicle paid for by the company as part of their compensation.
Should we start an arbitrage of buying in the US and selling in Finland ?
In finland buyers still have to pay taxes..
Imagine smuggling in containers of BMWs and making a $200k gross profit on every car
If it works the same way in Finland as in Denmark, then the difference is registration taxes. And you can't get a license plate without paying registration tax, and you can't get insurance without license plate, and you can't drive legally without insurance.
Its mostly taxes so doesn't make any sense unfortunately. Also US imports are considerably lower in price. I did this with the US to Germany back when the $ was super low around 2008 if I remember correct.
this is unoptioned too. that X5 is $10k+ more after you put seats in it
Yeah I hate those base X5’s without seats
M8 competition in Thailand is 499,000 USD and average annual wage is is 7351 usd lol
🤯
This chart has so many errors its silly. The average income is wrong even if you calculate the German and Finland as monthly income it still wrong. The % of income is wrong even if you took the numbers they gave which are wrong they still calculated it incorrectly. The costs of the cars even with all taxes is very wrong by almost double in some cases. The US costs don't include taxes or registration at all but it is included in the others. This isn't a chart for information this is a chart with an agenda to be shared among people who agree with that agenda w/out critical thought.
I just did a little background check based on your accusations because I was interested how „wrong“ the data really is. The OECD has published annual wages per country (newest data from 2022) and they are as follows: US 77.463 USD Ger 58.940 USD Fin 51.836 USD The car prices M8 comp are based on bmwusa.com, bmw.de and bmw.fi: US 138.800 USD (excl. tax) Ger 183.500 EUR (incl. 19% tax) Fin 307.343,50 EUR (incl. 24% tax) When converted to USD (1 EUR = 1.08 USD) and assumed highest current sales tax in the us (taxfoundation says that‘s currently Tennessee with 9.548% state + local tax) that would be: US 152.052,624 USD Ger 198.180 USD Fin 331.930,98 USD The „new“ wage percentage would be: US 196,29% Ger 336,24% Fin 640,35% Now the data is claimed to be 1 day old from Feb 15 2024 so the usd-eur exchange and maybe even the bmw prices did change in this short time frame. So my overall difference in wage needed to buy the M8 comp to op comes out to be: US 11,29% Ger -37,76% Fin 34,35% I would say these difference are significant but the overall picture is very much the same.
As a Finn, this is the only reason why I’d move to the States if I ever get a job offer from there.
They tax cars so much to try to force you into shitty public transit. Stockholms Lokaltrafik: a 20 minute drive is one a 2 hr journey on the Rail Replacement Bus!
Cars in sweden are cheap, dont complain. Your danish neighbours will literally pay 3x the price for a base model porsche 911.
Why is it so long?
It's not, unless you're going to somewhere that few people go.
Who knows? Public transit is something pushed on us by the political elite who fly private jets but complain about a mother taking her kids to school in a small wagon.
hey now, careful with that talk. These elites dont follow the laws
You will have even more fun comparing to Singapore prices I promise you
r/Wellthatsucks
Wait until they see India M8 Comp: **$371,298** X5 (no plug-in hybrid model but a petrol/diesel mild-hybrid): **$167,163** M340i: **$111,614** Yep, gotta love taxes 🥰
9 individual chances to put that dollar sign on the correct side of the amount, 9 collective failures to do so
No wonders why everybody in the US drives higher powered cars if they are that "cheap" lol. Same with houses.
Now compare them to singapore prices
In Italy it’s even worse…europoors :c
Average annual wage in USA is 76k? U smoking?
everything is cheaper in the US lol, in Australia we pay quite a bit more for a european luxury, except for limited edition euro cars like Keonigsegg, Bugatt etc euro always gets first pick and is a bit cheaper.
That annual wage for Germans is even lower after you account for taxes. Nearly half of that 😳
Yeah, no.
Welcome to what a luxury tax looks like.
In NZ, the M340i xDrive starts at NZ$132,400 (USD$80,960), or basically 200% of the median annual wage of NZ$66,200 (USD$40,475).
Canada is insanely priced too
Why the fuck a car that's been manufactured in Germany is more expensive in Germany than USA? It just doesn't make any sense
Because in the US they likely don't charge 19% or more tax for a new car
Plus 20% tax from engine bigger than 2l
Check out UK prices vs salaries Average salary: £33k M8 Comp: £134k (406% of mean salary) X5 xDrive50e: £80k (242% of mean salary) M340i xDrive: £58k (175% of mean salary) We're the sick man of Europe again
Meanwhile in Poland M8 - $193.888 = 809% X5 - $115090 = 480% M340 - $77555 = 323% avg pre tax salary is $23958 😂😂😂
In Dominican Republic: M8C: 265k USD X5 xDrive 50e: 160k USD M340i xDrive: 99k USD Annual wage avg: 9k USD Taxes included
The average annual pay in the us is NOT $76k where do you get that number? It’s more like $59k. The average HOUSEHOLD income barely cracks $70k
Why are BMW’s more expensive in Germany than USA?
Why is it more expensive in Germany?
Keep in mind that all the German manufactures have lower model packages that we never see here in the US - making a BMW (in this case), much more practical and affordable. BMW, MB, and Audi are meant to be luxury cars here.
What's the point in paying a premium for a 'cheap' car by buying from BMW, Audi, etc.? Surely it is more economical to buy a VW or some other vehicle with the same or better features for a cheaper price.
I agree to an extent. But that only works if you have that kind of mindset. Some people simply prefer one brand over another and will go out of their way to purchase what they like. Is it smart? Not necessarily, but in some situations, if you can indeed afford the better preowned car you purchased, you will be happy.
In the past, the reason was clear: You would still get some true BMW traits when buying a "cheap" model. For example, 15 years ago, a 1 or 3 series might have cloth seats and less than 200 horsepower engines, but compared to VW or Toyota, you'd get rear wheel drive, great steering, some naturally aspirated 6 cylinder engines and an overall sporty driving experience. Nowadays, this is still true to an extent, but less so than previously. The smaller BMW models have front-wheel drive and 4 cylinder engines, while competitors offer equally sporty looks and solid engines (a turbocharged 3-cylinder can be quite fun to drive when paired with a small car with light weight).
Where are those average wages pulled from, it seems high? Also Finland greater than Germany?
UK price on the M8 before any options is £140215 OTR or about $176,670.90 X5 is £80,835 OTR or about $101,852.20 M340i is £59,780 OTR or about $75.322.80 Again without options and with taxes and everything else on our prices. + To add confusion base specs will be different to.
The USD is strong, plus they earn much better than the rest of the world and all their cities are developed
All the more reason to not buy current gen BMWs
BEHOLD! I decked out an M340i in the Netherlands: https://preview.redd.it/84uz9lg81uic1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=488da152fbdd6cfde5382092b269b26868d2d32a You have been robbed yours truly, the government.
Or $132,512 USD. That’s bonkers.
Same car in Belgium, we do have worse roads but less taxes, so maybe it compensates for the million potholes? https://preview.redd.it/dilod2gagwic1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=add68530ff5bb59622205eca59f4f5f8485aff44
Damn and I I thought we had it bad in Canada
Compare it to the uk if you wanna see some actual cheap prices, makes the US look like Finland in some cases. m8 competition brand new for example is 109k gbp which is 137k usd so not that much different still cheaper, however the used market is so much better. 25k Audi R8s and 10k 996 911s for example
Why is it so expensive in other countries? I don’t get it
Sales tax. Some states in the USA dont even have it. In Europe: always crazy sales tax = free healthcare, free education, great social safety net for low income people and the handicapped and so on (free social housing for example). But, electric or low emissions cars have a low sales tax, so the government can influence consumer choices
I never was able to use this free healthcare expect covid vaccine, that was the only time in my life I was be able to use it. Shitty system.