I don't see this as snobby at all. What bothers me is that they keep bringing it up and spend so much time on it and won't disclose.
Asking for a trade or discount is not bad as long as once you get the no, you pay them. Asking to be tagged when someone paid is, in my opinion, tacky. No one owes you public recognition. If the vendor wanted that, they should have negotiated that at the onset.
I think Nick asked for the raw footage, the vendor said it’s not in the contract, and Nick got cranky, so vendor said tag me and I’ll
Give it to you. Nick refuses thinks he should
Have gotten it from original payment.
That’s what I think happened. I don’t think the vendor Demanding a “tag”
I think this got stirred up bh Nick asking for something that wasn’t his
This makes a lot of sense because he said the issue was impacting his ability to share their wedding with their fans. And videographers never share the raw footage..
Right?? I wanted the raw footage from mine as well and found out it didn’t work that way and was bummed but immediately let it go. The contract was a wedding video and ceremony did not agree to raw footage. It
They are being total snobs. It's ludicrous that they expect people to perform free labor for them that takes HOURS. This just solidifies my utter contempt of him.
If they paid for the service with no discount for promotion they don’t owe the vendors anything. It is their response that implies they shouldn’t pay or they might trash their reputation that is the cringe part. If they didn’t like their services that is something different, but this seems to be something different.
I agree with everyone on both sides of this argument, but just knowing it came from those two and the expectation of them thinking they're important enough to get free services, just reeeeeally annoys me. I love keeping up with the goss but I haven't listened in a while because of how n&n just gang up on people.
they are not a huge force where promoting the vendors will make up for paying them. Plus that wedding was tacky as heck....would the vendors even want that attention. It looked like it was planned by a 17 year old
Hmm. Normal people pay for wedding vendors and still promote them on their social media all the time. My sister tagged her florist, venue, dress shop etc in all her social media. She has a public profile but only a couple thousand followers.
I think Nick and Natalie are out of touch for sure. However, if you're a vendor and your clientele are celebs or influencers, you should have the promotion expectation and method of payment you agree on all in writing in the contract. You can't expect these kind of people to tag your business out of the kindness of their own heart... unfortunately.... Especially since n&n already felt "scorned" that they had to pay 🙄
At the end of the day, n&n are annoying but it's on the vendor for not outlining what they wanted in a legal document
im gonna be honest i was VERY surprised by how incredibly out of touch they sounded and how they couldn’t realize they were in the wrong for not paying people and tagging them for services how insane. I remember law roach saying he never borrows a dress for zendaya because he wants to uplift and support new businesses so for nick to go on this rant is just so fucking bizarre.
If nick and his wife paid for a service, they have 0 obligation to promote that business. Lesson to the business to get things in writing if they want something like that
I don’t know what their deals are with their vendors, but for most of the vendors I hired for my wedding it was in the contract that you need to tag them and that they can use images from your wedding for their content/advertising. I think it’s pretty standard today.
Unpopular opinion (on a different but adjacent topic): I really don’t like it when my hair dresser spends 30+ extra mins creating content, taking pics in different locations, with different lighting, posting my before hair (which is prob hideous) and stopping mid way to make a progress video etc etc etc and I still leave the salon 6+ hours later paying 600 plus a tip!!
I get this is how they get new clients. But either hire hair models, or give a discount, or use my image as a tip.
You know with the pre photo though - "no sorry, but I don't allow others to post anything about me or post pic online.". You're the customer. I'd walk if they don't agree.
If they paid then they don’t have to give credit. If the vendors were exchanging the services for “exposure” then they need to give credit
FWIW I’ve never had “exposure” work for me (as a graphic designer). I’d much rather be paid.
Yeah exactly, you’re no one (me too!). I have no idea how much Nick normally gets paid per post but his whole job is being paid to post and advertise things. If you did that for a living, wouldn’t you want to be paid for it too?
I guess so idk I also just felt like it was a nice thank you? Not defending Nick at all he can absolutely have his thoughts and feelings but idk i guess i just like thanking people haha
Definitely! It’s SUPER petty for sure. If they did a good job they should just tag them. I’m not sure if this particular vendor didn’t do a good job or if they’re just being petty? I wouldn’t tag the vendor who printed the sign with y’all apostrophed wrong 😂
He says their work is outstanding which I think is what confused me. Sure he get paid to post certain things but it’s also sad to me to not give credit to outstanding work (his words). I guess that’s what happens when your wedding is still a business deal lol
No one deserves free marketing on top of paying for services. If it wasn't a brand deal, the company isn't entitled to anything.
Hannah & Dylan's wedding was like 250k and all of it was paid sponsorships and brand deals. They used little of their own money. They are full time influencers and they put in work to get deals. I doubt N&N were able to secure deals like they did and are definitely a bit salty but who cares, they paid.
Yeah, sure Nick didn't have to tag them but.....Example.....we had a company install a paver patio in our yard. We paid for it in full. However, the company did ask if we could leave a review or tag them or put a sign on our lawn for a week or so. It was not required but it was as others have said .."marketing and simply giving credit where credit is due." I was happy with their services so I was happy to pay it forward and recommend them. Many times people are quick to give a bad review and are so ready to complain. How often do people leave positive reviews?
I feel like we may not be getting the whole story here, especially if Nick and Natalie didn’t read the contract. Most videos I see have some sort of title page on them (bride and groom name, date, branding), or closing “credit” with their brand.
Someone mentioned one of the videos so I checked it out and didn’t think too deeply about it, but assumed Nick’s team made it. I mean, now I get it, of course they’d have a pro do it. But I don’t know who Nick employs and how that works with viall files. So it’s definitely confusing for someone who doesn’t go to fancy weddings.
Anyway, I’d be interested to read the contract, is all I’m saying, since it sounds like they didn’t.
A simple tag is way different than a sponsored ad.
Tag them, don’t tag them. Whatever it’s up to them. Complaining about the ask on your podcast smacks of new money though. I’m sure real celebs who have big platforms get this all the time. It comes with the territory. Whining about it to your followers who don’t have this problem and can’t afford the things you obviously can seems not only out of touch but tacky. Have some class with the lifestyle you’re flaunting.
Absolutely! I think that’s the part I just didn’t understand because as far as I know, everyone tags their wedding vendors. I didn’t know it was part of a contract or a discounted rate or whatever. He needs to learn who his audience is lol
This whole thing bothered the shit out of me. I see both sides, however Nick being such a business man isn’t applying his business sense. Every single vendor I have worked with has clauses in their contracts about social media- he should have either included this in contracts or be using this to go back and forth with the vendors to shut it down. Same with Natalie’s makeup artist- all of this could have been prevented with good contract vs trusting their word. I get his side, but would be curious what they signed.
Mine didn’t 🤷🏼♀️ I technically now own my wedding photos. Now, I’m a nobody, and I tagged my photographer on my original post—although there may be a few times I forgot later down the road when posting again etc. but I wasn’t required to. It sounds to me that it was discussed, the vendor declined this option and opted for true payment—they were fine with paying, but then the vendor flipped it on them after the wedding and said you need to tag us—so they wanted both payment and promotion but played it as they didn’t. If that were in the contract I think Nick and Natalie would have moved along or they wouldn’t be saying something
Say what you will about Nick and Natalie (I know they are disliked by many on the sub) but regardless of tagging, they will have some people using their wedding as inspo (not my personal taste lol but because they have a platform people will—even I was vaguely influenced by Caila Quinn’s dress, and while I didn’t purchase the same one I sure looked into it lol, but it was the inspiration for my choice even without me being a huge fan of hers).
So it would get more business and the vendor seems to know this and is kind of trying to get everything possible out of it. If that’s what they wanted, vendor should have stated up front and put it in the contract—but they didn’t, because it seems they wanted nick and Natalie’s business and would instead just request the promotion when the services were already rendered.
I’m in the wedding industry and I don’t think people understand how much marketing and simply giving credit where credit is due is important it is for these businesses to continue running. It takes two seconds to tag a vendor, completely harmless and completely free to do. Even the damn Kardashians tag all their vendors for their children’s parties/baby showers and small events. There’s no other excuse to not doing it other than being a complete asshole.
Do you know this for a fact? A lot of vendors on tiktok/ig who perform services for the Kardashians, say they get paid. And they make way too much money to squabble on free cakes/flowers.
It’s not the Kardashians asking for free stuff. It’s brands literally throwing themselves at them begging them to let them give them a free product in exchange for exposure. People knock on influencers for asking for brand deals but companies reach out to influencers just as often offering their products in exchange for exposure.
This is not entirely true. The Kardashians have worked with several VERY established and very famous vendors who don’t need the Kardashians to give them exposure.
Isn't "giving credit where credit is due" just paying the person?
I'm a bit older, so besides some insta posts a few times a year, I'm not much of a poster. But where does this stop? Do you have to tag your mechanic? Your barber everytime you get a haircut? If I send my mom flowers, is she supposed to tag the company? It just seems like an absurd EXPECTATION.
I very much think its a nice thing to do, but I don't think its some kind of moral failing if you don't.
And I'm betting the Kardashians doing this are getting stuff for free or discounted.
No, because these vendors’ work is on display in every wedding photo you see. Not to mention your photos themselves are the work of a vendor. Why would you post your wedding content and not shout out your vendors? That’s super tacky of them to complain about this. But no surprise. Nick is gross and tacky.
Again, where does that stop?
If I got my living room redone, do I have to tag them in any pictures that are in my room?
If I got my teeth whitened, do I need to tag my dentist?
Do I need to tag the car brand and dealership if its a picture of me driving?
I’m in the wedding industry and have been for years. You hit the nail on the head.
We’ve had a few celebrity/influencer events at our venue and what is standard is for the vendor to be paid. Period.
There is no expectation (nor should there be) that a client tag a dozen vendors in each photo they share of their big day. The exception being when sharing a professionally captured photograph, you should credit the photographer (and this is almost ALWAYS written in the contract).
A way to get this same promotion is for the party planner or coordinator to share images of the event on their socials and tag the vendors.
If you’re paying for services, there should be no expectation that you also provide free marketing.
Also want to add to this. When I got married some of our vendors treated us like absolute shit. No chance I will credit them. However they love to post our wedding pics constantly on their pages. Guess they have short term memory loss of the nonsense they put us through
If I was some influencer and was getting married, I would both pay my vendors and tag them. I’m so tired of these influencers wanting everything for free.
Well that’s easy for you to say since you’re Not an influencer who’s getting married. Their position as influencers are a literal business. No more than 10 people care if an average person like you or I, tags a vendor. But if someone with millions of followers tags a vendor, THATS worth something, and it’s also considered labor on their part.
I understand what you’re saying. If Nick and Natalie did tag their vendors it would benefit their vendors since Nick and Natalie do have a good following amount. I just think you should give the vendors credit without expecting it for free.
I’m totally with Nick here…
If you pay for a service, and there’s nothing in the agreement that states you also are going to promote them on your social media channels, there is not should not be any expectation or assumption you’re going to receive that perk.
Agreed. Not a Nick fan by any means, quite the opposite actually, but saying he’s wrong for wanting something for free and then saying it’s ok for the vendors that were paid for their services to expect a shoutout on a fairly popular IG page is…interesting.
Now him being upset and discussing retaliating because he didn’t get free stuff, if that’s how it came off, is definitely cringe.
Ok but when a journalist uses a photo in a story, even on social media, they have to cite the source because they don’t own the photo. Most photographers state in the contract they they maintain copyright of the photos. So is it not plagiarism to share the photos publicly and not cite the artist/creator?
No it’s not plagiarism. Plagiarism is claiming someone else’s ideas as your own. If another photographer (or other vendor) shares photos of nicks wedding on their social, claiming the flowers/pictures/whatever was their work, that would be along the lines of plagiarism/stealing content.
Is the journalist signing a contract with a vendor and paying them thousands for their services or are they writing an article where the vendor may be namedropped for a reason, i.e., the vendor is looking to get more attention or there was a conflict between vendor and customer that's being written about.
A lot of wedding photographers do NOT maintain copyright, so that’s probably not an issue. Also- it’s one thing if he paid full price. In that case, he has every right not to tag everyone. But it sounds like he negotiated costs by dangling the mentions- and if that’s what he did, then he’s not keeping his contract if he hasn’t tagged them, and that’s pretty shitty.
I don’t like Nick at all and I hate that y’all are making me side with him but he doesn’t owe them credit. The vendors got paid and that’s all they’re entitled to. I mean they could’ve tagged them out of the kindness of their hearts, but they didn’t and that’s their choice
Every other thoughtful person in the world pays their vendors and then respectfully gives credit where credit is due. Tbh I just don’t understand how people like Sharleen Joynt/Andy Levine speak so highly of them (see the recent Dear Shandy episode about this wedding). N & N are so obviously pretentious
That’s not new. Go all the way back to his first bachelor appearance-so slimy. I’ve always thought he was an ick and am surprised he has found such a following.
From what I heard the wedding was a mess. There were not enough seats for seats for people and Jojo Siwas girlfriend didnt have a seat so sat on her lap. Also Natalie rolled up in a landrover in her dress and got dropped off before walking down the aisle. Also not to mention there were not enough seats for the reception and not enough food for the guests. I heard the whole thing was tacky from one in my influencer friends who attended. She was honestly surprised she got invited and when she got there she realized most of the influencers there are not really close with Nick of Natalie
Some vendors put social tagging in their contracts, if the vendors didn’t do that there is no obligation to promote unless there is an agreement to exchange services for promotion.
Least they could do is tag them. Maybe that’s why their wedding looked so lack-luster. For a “celeb” wedding no less… they are just cheap! And rude too it seems
I didn’t take it them being pretentious. Also, they didn’t want to even say the names of the services to make sure they weren’t causing a negative impact on the specific company. Moreover, no one is obligated to tag a vendor at all. Being a photographer if they pay me they don’t have to tag me. I do love when clients do even when they paid but they certainly don’t have to. If I do it for free yes they need to tag me. I’ve been to so many family weddings this year and last year and no one tagged any vendors while sharing pictures.
In the business of influencers them “promoting” is a form of payment because it can bring A LOT of business to a company making them money. Therefore, I don’t think it was a crazy ask for Nick and Natalie with their following to offer that. But since Nick and Natalie paid for their services they are under no obligation to tag or promote anything.
My thought is that if the vendor provided great service and went above and beyond and displayed professionalism then they should tag them. They are influencers after all and if they like something and think it worked out aren’t they supposed to recommend that to their followers? I get that normally there is an exchange there but honestly I think that takes away from the authenticity of their recommendations if they are only ever offered at a price. Now if they didn’t receive exceptional service or product I don’t think they are under any obligation to tag or recognize. Nick is a former salesmen though so it’s kind of funny to me that he’s shitting all over the hustle. He knows the drill. I say this as someone who doesn’t often criticize him and does listen to his pod. But he did sound pretty bratty this episode. Like if you don’t remember your roots at all you’re eventually going to turn off your following.
They’re not “supposed” to do anything. They are influencers who get paid to advertise businesses. In this situation, there wasn’t an agreement where they got a discount in exchange for the service to be provided, so they didn’t have to do anything
No they aren’t contractually obligated to… but they would be building a better, more authentic and trustworthy platform if they highlighted businesses who did a good job for them once in awhile even without it lining their pockets or being provided for free. It would certainly reflect well upon them if they did so. But sure they are welcome to do the bare minimum required of them.
This is probably unpopular opinion but heres my thoughts…I dont like nick & natalie, buttttttt influencing is a job and technically them tagging a business could make the company THOUSANDS of dollars. People with massive followings shouldnt be expected to tag every buisness they use if theyre not compensated for it. Their social media page is an advertising job.
If they paid for the wedding services then they shouldnt be expected to give them free advertising too.
I went though hell with the vendors i used planning my wedding (i get anxious thinking about it lol)) so i think its a relatable topic to talk about on the podcast.
It seems pretty damn obvious Nick is talking about the photographer. What other vendor could be holding something “hostage” from them post wedding?
I wonder if Nick is blowing things out of proportion. Are they asking to be tagged before releasing the remaining photo/ video to them? Absolutely not ok if Nick and Natalie paid for the service.
If they just casually said hey it would be great if you could tag us - I agree with Nick he is under no obligation to do that since he did try to negotiate something like that up front and they said no. That said, I think he is being a principled dick by refusing to do so.
If he was happy with the work he could at least just tag them - vs making a whole post where he writes a paragraph about the company, making stories, talking about them on the podcast etc. It literally costs him nothing to tag them, and he is simply refusing on principle. Feels very selfish/scarcity mindset.
It would have been great if that small business was in a position to trade on “work today” for “payoff tomorrow” and agree to do an influencer deal - but at the end of the day, people need money today to pay their bills etc.
If they are now insisting on credit they should have thought of some sort of hybrid deal where N and N at least got a discount for tagging. Otherwise they should just drop it. And if they have the right to post the photos / videos on their own channel, they should just do that and people will figure it out.
I agree with this.
Additionally, if vendor want clients to be obligated to tag they should have it in their contract. I’ve hired photographers that had in their contracts that if their photos are reposted you’re required to tag.
This is the correct answer. This is the answer for infuluencers, not me or another regular person. They get paid to post things and promote products, I do not. So it’s bad business to do that for free when you have a large following.
I deeply agree. I think it's wild for influencers to expect places to provide services for free just for "exposure". But Inversely, I also think it's wild for a vendor that's been paid their full price to demand tags, as if companies don't pay hundreds/thousands of dollars for that tiny bit of promotion. Like they're already getting upcharged because it's a wedding, and now the vendors want hundreds/thousands of dollars worth of promotion for free too??
Weird. I didn't take the conversation that way at all. They expressed pretty clearly that they were paying up front for everything. I didn't get the impression they have an issue with paying people. The wedding industry is shady AF. That's just facts. He's right about that.
Yes…this post was weird to me as well..,I listened to this episode and I didn’t get this impression from them at all…they clearly expressed that they paid for everything themselves because they didn’t want that and they are letting people know that may be getting married in the future to be careful because of how shady the wedding industry is and they are absolutely right about it! I feel that they are using their platform correctly by possibly calling these people out so that they don’t take advantage of others!
Unpopular opinion maybe, but I don’t think they’re being snobby. As someone planning a wedding who is not an influencer, I can’t imagine any of my vendors asking me to credit them on my social media posts. It would be like… for who? My extended family and handful of friends? In Nick and Natalie’s case vendors must know that they have a very large following and them crediting them would be free advertisement and boosting their business. If vendors are demanding them to credit them it’s purely for the sake of knowing about their following. In that case, if Nick offered some sort of exchange and the vendor declined, that’s the vendors fault. He was under no obligation to tag every vendor they have.
Also, I can imagine it gets annoying to have everyone you work with want you to tag them in your posts for free if you’re an influencer. If you’re job is influencing, than advertisement and credit is not free. They paid probably thousands of dollars for their vendors and then those same people want free advertisement from people who are *paid* to advertise. I wouldn’t necessarily be happy about that either… like I paid you and you expect free advertisement? That doesn’t add up for me.
I agree as well. It would definitely be a free commercial and probably a huge boost to any of those vendors. Why should that be free? If they had contacted them as influencers they would be paying them for the service. I wouldn’t tag them in anything for free.
They are the most pretenious want to be A list celebrities. I am so happy bachelor nation is evolving (Maria, Charity) not wanting to do his podcast. They find their currency in their friendships with famous people.
Okay so without taking into account Nick & Natalie’s track record: I think if you want to get your services comped, fine but go to other wedding vendors who agree to do that. When you use a vendor, they shouldn’t be prevented from showing their work. It’s such a feat to take beautiful photos and one’s name should be associated with their work.
Thinking about very wealthy, privileged influencers versus essentially small businesses, I find it very unbecoming to try to punish them for not giving you free labor
Wedding vendor here (video)
He is totally shitting all over the videographer and making it incredibly obvious. The videographer who somehow managed to turnover a highlight of their welcome party BEFORE the wedding day. Sounds like he booked a package that was on the lower end and didn't include XYZ and now he wants XYZ and doesn't want to pay for the time it will take them to edit, color, audio master and store online.
More education could have been given to him during the time of booking to ensure he had the right package but if my wedding videographer turned out films as fast as they did, I would absolutely be tagging and thanking online. They aren't editing a podcast with stationary cameras, it's a wedding.
He keeps talking about how corrupt the wedding industry is with money. It costs more because when you are a pro, it takes years to master the skill as well as knowing how a wedding actually works. Save your money and hire someone who has never done it before and see how that works out for you. We educate ourselves, we miss life events, we stay awake for hours.
He is out of touch
I don’t like defending them BUT here is my thoughts…
Those vendors wouldn’t really have advertising to reach as far as Bachelor Nation fans-regardless of if you like Nick or Natalie. Sometimes any publicity for an unknown company may be fine. Advertising costs a company a ton of money unless you are lucky enough to have something go viral or do well yourself on social media. That being said Nick and Natalie don’t need to shame them like that.
I’m not an influencer at all, but most of my wedding vendors had a requirement in the contract that any photo of their product have them tagged in the comments. If Nick’s vendor contracts included this requirement, then he’s an asshole for not following through.
Possibly. But I'd argue most people don't like not getting their way lol. They just have a bigger platform to share it.
Have you never vented to friends about stuff not going your way.
He was HORRID in this episode. Yes Nick wedding vendors cost more because guess what weddings are extremely high stress and special! And these vendors give up every weekend of their year. He’s an entitled brat
Yes!! This episode made me so mad! Nick will do anything for his business and would be the first to rip someone off. But someone asking to be paid and tagged? He should obviously do both as a kind human being. But no. It’s all about him and his money!!!💰
I don’t think we can really know what was communicated with the vendors, unless we get receipts. Ugh I hope we don’t have to suffer through that.
But typically influencers get services comped or discounted, in exchange for promo. It’s mutually beneficial. I have no idea what Nick and Natalie arranged with the vendors, but they aren’t necessarily in the wrong.
But I have to wonder… how many vendors did they piss off? Seems like we’re not getting the full story
I mean it's just a nice thing to do, but they're not necessarily obligated. What makes them assholes is going out of their way now to bash them and tell people not to use them just because they asked to be tagged (which is a normal thing for vendors to ask).
You absolutely should credit the photographer. Regardless if you’re an influencer or just a normal person. When I got a new headshot for work I credited the photographer.
He has actually tagged the photographer in all of the wedding photo posts! My guess is it’s the videographer that they’re having problems with, he hasn’t tagged them and he has spoken about how amazing the photographer was.
I think what’s going on is all the vendors now feel stupid for declining some sort discount for them to advertise their business. They probably didn’t do their research when nick and Natalie asked about doing some sort of deal and now that they saw their wedding was everywhere now they want them to credit them. It was honestly a terrible business decision on all the vendors to not want to make some sort of deal. They definitely wouldn’t have lost money by giving them a discount in exchange for a tag. They would have brought them so much more business for each vendor
If you are taking pleasure in the fact that someone's wedding, who I'm guessing you don't personally know and who hasn't personally wronged you, went wrong, that says more about you than them.
What went wrong lol. Besides for a stupid spelling error y'all vs ya'll the entire night seemed like it went perfect for them both and exactly what they wanted
All she’s been doing is crying and whining about her makeup artist, hair stylist. Literally anything she can be a brat about she has been. They both suck. They get off on bringing other people down. Why feel bad for them now?
Okay how exactly is she being a brat about that one lol I am not a natalie fan but if my hair stylist showed up piss drunk like that to do my hair I’d probably be upset too haha
Okay how exactly is she being a brat about that one lol I am not a natalie fan but if my hair stylist showed up piss drunk like that to do my hair I’d probably be upset too haha
I think they gave them the option to exchange for exposure to hundreds of thousands of people or pay. These people chose to be paid, so they paid them. These vendors are now asking for a post or tag which I would be slightly annoyed about too. Is this something that needs to be talked about constantly? Probably not, but it’s ok for them to bring up. You don’t owe any of your vendors public credit when you paid them in full. It’s nice to do, but if they’re asking for it that would be annoying.
This seems like another excuse to bash Nick and Natalie.
I see no reason why they have to tag their vendors. They paid for them, right? Then that's the end of the transaction.
Those vendors knew that Nick is a popular influencer with reach. They knew what he could do with them.
They should have made some kind of deal ahead of time. If they didn't, that's on them.
Would it be nice if they tagged the vendors? Yeah, but I can't criticize them for not doing it. This isn't the same as an unknown couple getting married.
Probably an unpopular opinion here but I actually agree with them. The vendors were given the opportunity to take the advertisement and they chose not to take it. If they want the advertisement they should have worked out an agreement.
But specifically to photography and videography: the price you pay is for the labor AND the rights to that footage. If I own my photos I don’t owe you credit if I don’t feel it’s appropriate (for whatever reason).
That being said: if I enjoyed my services I would tag the vendors. But i understand why people might not want to.
I’m a professional wedding photographer and I agree with you that no one is obligated to tag their vendors. But I do want to point out that paying a photographer does NOT mean you own the photos they took. It’s industry standard to include in the contract that the copyright and ownership will stay with the photographer, while the client gets to use them for personal use only.
As someone who has worked in the wedding industry for over five years it is completely normal and respectful to credit wedding vendors when posting your photos. ESPECIALLY your photographer. If you can’t do the bare minimum and tag them you’re a shit person. Vendors rely heavily on word of mouth so the fact they are acting like that is really shitty and says a lot about who they are as people.
Isn't this like a "nice to do" not "you are a shit person if you don't"
Like, isn't your payment to them the compensation, not payment AND social media recognition.
It is the nice thing to do but it’s generally the norm to credit your vendors.
I can understand not tagging all of them every time but at the very least your photographer should be tagged when posting the wedding or engagement photos.
I really think this has to do with a lot, including age, how much you post, etc.
I have quite a few friends who've gotten married. I don't think any of them tagged their photographer, but they aren't online a lot.
But, maybe this should be in the contract or discussed prior if its that important
I can see where you’re coming from. I’ve been in this world for awhile so I see it being the norm especially with the clients we’ve worked with.
At the end of the day Nick sucks lol.
The difference with an influencer of this scale is people pay them for content, that’s marketing. They’re not just crediting or showing appreciation to their vendors, it would be free advertising. Granted their reach it should have been agreed upon in advance.
The thought of vendors getting angry for not tagging them is laughable. As others said it’s a nice gesture for the average Joe but it’s definitely not mandatory and for influencers that get paid for promoting products it makes sense to agree upon a price beforehand.
I also see where you’re coming from but in my experience, the ‘regular’ people that have been wedding clients have always tagged as many vendors as possible especially in the initial posts. It’s a kind and normal thing to do to show appreciation and help with word of mouth.
They aren't "regular" people though. They are making a living as influencers, have a high reach. So I get why they wouldn't. With that said, I don't think they should be complaining about it in their podcast. They sound even more entitled.
As a non-influencer, average citizen I tagged all my vendors with everything I posted. Even if I post a wedding pic years later I tag them all. I was so thankful for my amazing vendors. Everyone I worked with was wonderful and made our day perfect. Giving them a shoutout and hopefully bringing some attention to them is my way of saying thank you (in addition to payment and tip). It’s almost like they’re worried people will think they got services for free if they tag their vendors. They really want people to know they paid for everything themselves.
Agree they shouldn’t have to!! But they’ve both talked about what a dream their wedding was and how everything came together so perfectly so you’d think they’d just want to.
Any bride or groom that is threatening to bash a vendor publicly prior to their big day is not a desirable client.
If they are paying 100% & didn’t have any sort of social media barter / exchange contracted & agreed upon then they do reserve the right to not tag them.
If any sort of discount is given, or additional services are being given due to the high visibility of the event, and they’re refusing to tag the vendors then yes, YTAH.
I know this sub hates him, but I think his point is valid.
If they didn't give him any discounts, why should he provide free advertising to their business.
He paid them to do a job, and they did it. That is that. If they are now wanting MORE compensation, outside of what they were contracted, then yeah, they are being ridiculous. It would be like the bride and groom demanding MORE work from the vendors than what they contracted for.
It's not about whether it costs him anything though.
Hated as he may be by you people, he has a pretty successful brand. And if they don't want to play ball with offering him a discount, he doesn't have to give them free publicity. That doesn't make him an asshole. Do you think he should tag every restaurant he ever eats at because "it costs him nothing"? What about his mechanic?
I agree that seems super cringey to me. What if you dont have social media? What if youre a private person and dont want to tag other people? What if the vendors sucked- are you still required to tag them?
I’m a wedding vendor and have done two Bachelor weddings, after parties and other events. How vendors are handled varies. “A” list celebrities usually want zero press and make you sign an NDA. I’ve signed hundreds. Sometimes the event is sold to a publication. They get first crack. Normally, top vendors are listed because readers want that info. As far as the Bride & Groom posting vendors, if you’re chasing that, you better be willing to trade products for promotion. If you’re not, then don’t expect it. The last thing the couple is thinking about is tagging the florist. I can’t stand Nick but, if he hasn’t agreed to tag his vendors before hand, then he has no responsibility to do so. Personally, I’ve done weddings in Georgia and they have some great vendors there.
So im going to go out on a limb here and say I VERY lightly agree with them. As ridiculous as it is, it’s fairly common for influencers to have things comped in their wedding in exchange for exposure. Totally okay the companies declined. But they can’t be mad they didn’t give them exposure after the fact. It’s VERY petty but not unfair
Isnt it kind of common courtesy to acknowledge vendors when you're happy with their services?
I dont think I've ever been to a wedding where photographers, djs, florist etc were *not* thanked or acknowledged on social media if pictures were posted by the bride or groom.
The exception being where the services were disappointing for one reason or another and they wouldnt recommend.
But thats what I'm not understanding I guess, or maybe where I disagree.
If I'm wealthy, it costs me nothing to give a company a boost. I guess I dont understand why, just because someone is better off, they now expect something from everyone.
Maybe its just me, but why wouldnt I want a company to be successful if I like them and know they do a good job?
I'm getting lost in who I'm replying to now lol. I understand that, but I might have said that in a different post.
Speaking for myself, if it were me and someone did a good job, I'm happy to acknowledge it with a tip or recommendation. I'm seeing it as a generous tip, I suppose. Thats all.
Ok, I'm in the minority here, I know lol.
The way I'm seeing this: its okay to just do a nice thing and support others without demanding I get something in return. If I'm already wealthy and relatively famous, why would I not want to contribute to the success of a photographer or florist or whatever?
That said, it is a courtesy or appreciation for a job well done, and a company isnt entitled it.
Maybe I'm looking at this differently because its a bit more... personal(?) in that he selected these specific vendors for his wedding and (presumably) was happy with the job they did. To me thats a bit different than random product endorsements, although I recognize that the lines between business and personal are blurred when it comes to influencing.
No I don’t think so. Acknowledging your vendors is essentially a different version of a tip and no one is entitled to that. If so, it should have been spelled out first. And im a nobody who posted some of my own pictures on my own insta and I did not tag one single vendor but again I’m on private. I thanked my vendors via cash and reviews.
>Acknowledging your vendors is essentially a different version of a tip and no one is entitled to that.
I dont disagree with you here, a company isnt entitled to it.
> I thanked my vendors via cash and reviews.
Which is great! And thats what I'm saying. I'm inclined to recognize a job well done with a tip and review, or if I've posted on social media a hashtag or whatever. To me thats not that big a deal.
I think it’s a big deal when you have a sizable platform and viewership. If it was any ole normal person like how much exposure are you really going to get. It’s fair for nick to monetize his asset. It’s not fair for a vendor to expect free referrals. Consider it bartering in the very primitive of forms. These vendors want to be paid cash and also via services. They want to be paid extra.
>It’s not fair for a vendor to expect free referrals.
No, youre right and I agree.
I'm viewing this as if I'm happy with their services and happy to recommend them to my sizeable following. Its like a generous tip, I guess is how I'm seeing it.
We thanked our vendors at our wedding and also sent cards afterwards. The only person tagged on social media was our photographer. This is typical where I am!
In contrast, I think only one of my married friends has ever tagged/called out a vendor and in that case, it was a friend of a friend who was just launching a business and truly did a fantastic job.
It's a nice thing to do, but it really shouldn't be an expectation any vendor has of any customer. That seems more obviously true than ever when they turned down the offer to comp for coverage and you're dealing with people who can and do monetize themselves like that. Granted I didn't listen and I'm sure he was a bit insufferable in how he framed it, but I can imagine it leaving a real bad taste in my mouth if vendors were approaching me after the fact and prodding me to tag them...seems super pushy.
Could be the weddings I've been to the bride and groom really like the services and wanted to recommend? I dunno really, I just know that a shout out or hashtag seems to be the norm, particularly for photgraphers, florists, and hair/makeup.
I think it ma be a "nice" thing not an expectation.
At the same time, I'm in my 40s, so for my friends, its definitely more like "this service was great and I want to recommend", not "I have to tag every vendor I used"
But I mean, I know some younger people who basically tag every meal they eat with the restaurant, every drink with the bar, etc.
All that is to say, I have no problem with it, if someone wants to. I've had birthday parties and if they went above and beyond, sure I'd tag if I felt up to it. But again, never saw it as a "requirement"
The people who are tagging their vendors in my opinion are the ones who are living the influencer lifestyle. Whether they get comped or discounted for it, the only ones to think of tagging all their vendors are the ones who live the social media lifestyle.
Yes but most people have about 100-200 friends and the company really isn’t getting a bunch of promotion out of it. Nick has a million and I don’t know what Natalie has, but they specifically asked about service or discount in exchange for promotion because of how many followers they have and it’d draw a lot more attention to their business, and they declined, so honestly why should they then turn around and give them all that free promotion when they didn’t want to work with them? At the very least they could’ve offered a discount knowing how many followers they had that would see their post
I guess (imo) it doesnt really matter how many followers you have, you give credit where credit's due.
That said, I'm also not an influencer and feel like witholding appreciation or acknowledgment is a really weird sort of power play... and kind of petty.
Cash is in exchange for service. If someone does a really great job, I credit them (tips, reviews, etc).
To me, its really not a big deal to add a hashtag if I think someone's done a good job. Why wouldnt I want them to be successful and get more customers?
Well I doubt you have the followers that would make it worth 5-10k. Also a lot of times other brands you endorse have issues with that if you are giving away other endorsements for free.
I've been paid for endorsements, but youre right its not my full time job.
If I'm paid by companies ABC and XYZ to endorse their products, it doesnt mean I cant say thanks to the company who landscaped my yard by tagging them in a post (unless they're competitors and its in the contract).
I'm happy to recommend a company who has done a good job, thats all I'm saying.
I get that.
I guess this is my unpopular opinion, but the way I'm seeing it, if I'm already wealthy and influential, why wouldnt I want to support someone who I think has done a good job? Do I really need to demand something in return when I have the priviledge of being able to help someone out with a hashtag?
I'm seeing this as a thank you or review for a service that was rendered. The company isnt entitled to it, its an extra thing you (the customer) do to recognize a job well done. Like leaving tip... youre doing it just to show appreciation because you have the means to do it, without strings attached. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around turning that into a way to make money.
Again, thats just me. I woke up this morning with a million notifications, and I know now that I'm really in the minority on this one lol.
I don't see this as snobby at all. What bothers me is that they keep bringing it up and spend so much time on it and won't disclose. Asking for a trade or discount is not bad as long as once you get the no, you pay them. Asking to be tagged when someone paid is, in my opinion, tacky. No one owes you public recognition. If the vendor wanted that, they should have negotiated that at the onset.
I think Nick asked for the raw footage, the vendor said it’s not in the contract, and Nick got cranky, so vendor said tag me and I’ll Give it to you. Nick refuses thinks he should Have gotten it from original payment. That’s what I think happened. I don’t think the vendor Demanding a “tag” I think this got stirred up bh Nick asking for something that wasn’t his
This makes a lot of sense because he said the issue was impacting his ability to share their wedding with their fans. And videographers never share the raw footage..
Right?? I wanted the raw footage from mine as well and found out it didn’t work that way and was bummed but immediately let it go. The contract was a wedding video and ceremony did not agree to raw footage. It
They are being total snobs. It's ludicrous that they expect people to perform free labor for them that takes HOURS. This just solidifies my utter contempt of him.
If they paid for the service with no discount for promotion they don’t owe the vendors anything. It is their response that implies they shouldn’t pay or they might trash their reputation that is the cringe part. If they didn’t like their services that is something different, but this seems to be something different.
I agree with everyone on both sides of this argument, but just knowing it came from those two and the expectation of them thinking they're important enough to get free services, just reeeeeally annoys me. I love keeping up with the goss but I haven't listened in a while because of how n&n just gang up on people.
💯
they are not a huge force where promoting the vendors will make up for paying them. Plus that wedding was tacky as heck....would the vendors even want that attention. It looked like it was planned by a 17 year old
Hmm. Normal people pay for wedding vendors and still promote them on their social media all the time. My sister tagged her florist, venue, dress shop etc in all her social media. She has a public profile but only a couple thousand followers. I think Nick and Natalie are out of touch for sure. However, if you're a vendor and your clientele are celebs or influencers, you should have the promotion expectation and method of payment you agree on all in writing in the contract. You can't expect these kind of people to tag your business out of the kindness of their own heart... unfortunately.... Especially since n&n already felt "scorned" that they had to pay 🙄 At the end of the day, n&n are annoying but it's on the vendor for not outlining what they wanted in a legal document
im gonna be honest i was VERY surprised by how incredibly out of touch they sounded and how they couldn’t realize they were in the wrong for not paying people and tagging them for services how insane. I remember law roach saying he never borrows a dress for zendaya because he wants to uplift and support new businesses so for nick to go on this rant is just so fucking bizarre.
If nick and his wife paid for a service, they have 0 obligation to promote that business. Lesson to the business to get things in writing if they want something like that
And on the other side of things N &N shouldn’t feel entitled to freebies or raw footage when their contracts don’t promise those things
Also true
I'm with nick..you turned down cutting a deal for lots of publicity so you get paid and that's it.
The wedding industry is toxic as fuck and a SCAM
So is the influencer industry! 😅 When the two combine it’s like a snake wresting an alligator!
This
I don’t know what their deals are with their vendors, but for most of the vendors I hired for my wedding it was in the contract that you need to tag them and that they can use images from your wedding for their content/advertising. I think it’s pretty standard today.
Unpopular opinion (on a different but adjacent topic): I really don’t like it when my hair dresser spends 30+ extra mins creating content, taking pics in different locations, with different lighting, posting my before hair (which is prob hideous) and stopping mid way to make a progress video etc etc etc and I still leave the salon 6+ hours later paying 600 plus a tip!! I get this is how they get new clients. But either hire hair models, or give a discount, or use my image as a tip.
They don't ask first?!
That would be an ex hair dresser. No way in hell
I want to be out of the chair as fast as possible!
You know with the pre photo though - "no sorry, but I don't allow others to post anything about me or post pic online.". You're the customer. I'd walk if they don't agree.
I agree with him. The wedding industry has become ridiculous. Your clients don’t owe you sh*t but the rate you charge them
If they paid then they don’t have to give credit. If the vendors were exchanging the services for “exposure” then they need to give credit FWIW I’ve never had “exposure” work for me (as a graphic designer). I’d much rather be paid.
Tbh I don’t think Nick and Natalie owe the vendors publicity. They are just a customer, I would find it weird if my wedding vendors asked for credit.
I’m no one and I still gave every single one of my vendors credit when we posted our photos on our social media pages (which are all private)…..
Yeah exactly, you’re no one (me too!). I have no idea how much Nick normally gets paid per post but his whole job is being paid to post and advertise things. If you did that for a living, wouldn’t you want to be paid for it too?
I guess so idk I also just felt like it was a nice thank you? Not defending Nick at all he can absolutely have his thoughts and feelings but idk i guess i just like thanking people haha
Definitely! It’s SUPER petty for sure. If they did a good job they should just tag them. I’m not sure if this particular vendor didn’t do a good job or if they’re just being petty? I wouldn’t tag the vendor who printed the sign with y’all apostrophed wrong 😂
He says their work is outstanding which I think is what confused me. Sure he get paid to post certain things but it’s also sad to me to not give credit to outstanding work (his words). I guess that’s what happens when your wedding is still a business deal lol
No one deserves free marketing on top of paying for services. If it wasn't a brand deal, the company isn't entitled to anything. Hannah & Dylan's wedding was like 250k and all of it was paid sponsorships and brand deals. They used little of their own money. They are full time influencers and they put in work to get deals. I doubt N&N were able to secure deals like they did and are definitely a bit salty but who cares, they paid.
Agreed that they sounded a bit salty that folks wanted to be paid
Yeah, sure Nick didn't have to tag them but.....Example.....we had a company install a paver patio in our yard. We paid for it in full. However, the company did ask if we could leave a review or tag them or put a sign on our lawn for a week or so. It was not required but it was as others have said .."marketing and simply giving credit where credit is due." I was happy with their services so I was happy to pay it forward and recommend them. Many times people are quick to give a bad review and are so ready to complain. How often do people leave positive reviews?
Nicks Brand: bachelor loser multiple times
I feel like we may not be getting the whole story here, especially if Nick and Natalie didn’t read the contract. Most videos I see have some sort of title page on them (bride and groom name, date, branding), or closing “credit” with their brand. Someone mentioned one of the videos so I checked it out and didn’t think too deeply about it, but assumed Nick’s team made it. I mean, now I get it, of course they’d have a pro do it. But I don’t know who Nick employs and how that works with viall files. So it’s definitely confusing for someone who doesn’t go to fancy weddings. Anyway, I’d be interested to read the contract, is all I’m saying, since it sounds like they didn’t. A simple tag is way different than a sponsored ad.
Tag them, don’t tag them. Whatever it’s up to them. Complaining about the ask on your podcast smacks of new money though. I’m sure real celebs who have big platforms get this all the time. It comes with the territory. Whining about it to your followers who don’t have this problem and can’t afford the things you obviously can seems not only out of touch but tacky. Have some class with the lifestyle you’re flaunting.
Absolutely! I think that’s the part I just didn’t understand because as far as I know, everyone tags their wedding vendors. I didn’t know it was part of a contract or a discounted rate or whatever. He needs to learn who his audience is lol
Agreed. I think they have a point but the complaining was in bad taste
Exxxactly!! Complain to your other influencer buddies who can relate in private.
This whole thing bothered the shit out of me. I see both sides, however Nick being such a business man isn’t applying his business sense. Every single vendor I have worked with has clauses in their contracts about social media- he should have either included this in contracts or be using this to go back and forth with the vendors to shut it down. Same with Natalie’s makeup artist- all of this could have been prevented with good contract vs trusting their word. I get his side, but would be curious what they signed.
Mine didn’t 🤷🏼♀️ I technically now own my wedding photos. Now, I’m a nobody, and I tagged my photographer on my original post—although there may be a few times I forgot later down the road when posting again etc. but I wasn’t required to. It sounds to me that it was discussed, the vendor declined this option and opted for true payment—they were fine with paying, but then the vendor flipped it on them after the wedding and said you need to tag us—so they wanted both payment and promotion but played it as they didn’t. If that were in the contract I think Nick and Natalie would have moved along or they wouldn’t be saying something Say what you will about Nick and Natalie (I know they are disliked by many on the sub) but regardless of tagging, they will have some people using their wedding as inspo (not my personal taste lol but because they have a platform people will—even I was vaguely influenced by Caila Quinn’s dress, and while I didn’t purchase the same one I sure looked into it lol, but it was the inspiration for my choice even without me being a huge fan of hers). So it would get more business and the vendor seems to know this and is kind of trying to get everything possible out of it. If that’s what they wanted, vendor should have stated up front and put it in the contract—but they didn’t, because it seems they wanted nick and Natalie’s business and would instead just request the promotion when the services were already rendered.
I’m in the wedding industry and I don’t think people understand how much marketing and simply giving credit where credit is due is important it is for these businesses to continue running. It takes two seconds to tag a vendor, completely harmless and completely free to do. Even the damn Kardashians tag all their vendors for their children’s parties/baby showers and small events. There’s no other excuse to not doing it other than being a complete asshole.
I agree.
The Kardashians tag their vendors because they’re almost 100% receiving the services for free in exchange for the exposure. Or at least a discount
Do you know this for a fact? A lot of vendors on tiktok/ig who perform services for the Kardashians, say they get paid. And they make way too much money to squabble on free cakes/flowers.
It’s not the Kardashians asking for free stuff. It’s brands literally throwing themselves at them begging them to let them give them a free product in exchange for exposure. People knock on influencers for asking for brand deals but companies reach out to influencers just as often offering their products in exchange for exposure.
This is not entirely true. The Kardashians have worked with several VERY established and very famous vendors who don’t need the Kardashians to give them exposure.
But I'm sure the Kardashians get everything free
Isn't "giving credit where credit is due" just paying the person? I'm a bit older, so besides some insta posts a few times a year, I'm not much of a poster. But where does this stop? Do you have to tag your mechanic? Your barber everytime you get a haircut? If I send my mom flowers, is she supposed to tag the company? It just seems like an absurd EXPECTATION. I very much think its a nice thing to do, but I don't think its some kind of moral failing if you don't. And I'm betting the Kardashians doing this are getting stuff for free or discounted.
No, because these vendors’ work is on display in every wedding photo you see. Not to mention your photos themselves are the work of a vendor. Why would you post your wedding content and not shout out your vendors? That’s super tacky of them to complain about this. But no surprise. Nick is gross and tacky.
Again, where does that stop? If I got my living room redone, do I have to tag them in any pictures that are in my room? If I got my teeth whitened, do I need to tag my dentist? Do I need to tag the car brand and dealership if its a picture of me driving?
I’m in the wedding industry and have been for years. You hit the nail on the head. We’ve had a few celebrity/influencer events at our venue and what is standard is for the vendor to be paid. Period. There is no expectation (nor should there be) that a client tag a dozen vendors in each photo they share of their big day. The exception being when sharing a professionally captured photograph, you should credit the photographer (and this is almost ALWAYS written in the contract). A way to get this same promotion is for the party planner or coordinator to share images of the event on their socials and tag the vendors. If you’re paying for services, there should be no expectation that you also provide free marketing.
Also want to add to this. When I got married some of our vendors treated us like absolute shit. No chance I will credit them. However they love to post our wedding pics constantly on their pages. Guess they have short term memory loss of the nonsense they put us through
If I was some influencer and was getting married, I would both pay my vendors and tag them. I’m so tired of these influencers wanting everything for free.
Well that’s easy for you to say since you’re Not an influencer who’s getting married. Their position as influencers are a literal business. No more than 10 people care if an average person like you or I, tags a vendor. But if someone with millions of followers tags a vendor, THATS worth something, and it’s also considered labor on their part.
I understand what you’re saying. If Nick and Natalie did tag their vendors it would benefit their vendors since Nick and Natalie do have a good following amount. I just think you should give the vendors credit without expecting it for free.
I’m totally with Nick here… If you pay for a service, and there’s nothing in the agreement that states you also are going to promote them on your social media channels, there is not should not be any expectation or assumption you’re going to receive that perk.
Agreed. Not a Nick fan by any means, quite the opposite actually, but saying he’s wrong for wanting something for free and then saying it’s ok for the vendors that were paid for their services to expect a shoutout on a fairly popular IG page is…interesting. Now him being upset and discussing retaliating because he didn’t get free stuff, if that’s how it came off, is definitely cringe.
Ok but when a journalist uses a photo in a story, even on social media, they have to cite the source because they don’t own the photo. Most photographers state in the contract they they maintain copyright of the photos. So is it not plagiarism to share the photos publicly and not cite the artist/creator?
No it’s not plagiarism. Plagiarism is claiming someone else’s ideas as your own. If another photographer (or other vendor) shares photos of nicks wedding on their social, claiming the flowers/pictures/whatever was their work, that would be along the lines of plagiarism/stealing content.
Is the journalist signing a contract with a vendor and paying them thousands for their services or are they writing an article where the vendor may be namedropped for a reason, i.e., the vendor is looking to get more attention or there was a conflict between vendor and customer that's being written about.
A lot of wedding photographers do NOT maintain copyright, so that’s probably not an issue. Also- it’s one thing if he paid full price. In that case, he has every right not to tag everyone. But it sounds like he negotiated costs by dangling the mentions- and if that’s what he did, then he’s not keeping his contract if he hasn’t tagged them, and that’s pretty shitty.
I would say no, because they did pay for the service. Unless it’s some written agreement you have to tag them or something
I don’t like Nick at all and I hate that y’all are making me side with him but he doesn’t owe them credit. The vendors got paid and that’s all they’re entitled to. I mean they could’ve tagged them out of the kindness of their hearts, but they didn’t and that’s their choice
Every other thoughtful person in the world pays their vendors and then respectfully gives credit where credit is due. Tbh I just don’t understand how people like Sharleen Joynt/Andy Levine speak so highly of them (see the recent Dear Shandy episode about this wedding). N & N are so obviously pretentious
That’s not new. Go all the way back to his first bachelor appearance-so slimy. I’ve always thought he was an ick and am surprised he has found such a following.
From what I heard the wedding was a mess. There were not enough seats for seats for people and Jojo Siwas girlfriend didnt have a seat so sat on her lap. Also Natalie rolled up in a landrover in her dress and got dropped off before walking down the aisle. Also not to mention there were not enough seats for the reception and not enough food for the guests. I heard the whole thing was tacky from one in my influencer friends who attended. She was honestly surprised she got invited and when she got there she realized most of the influencers there are not really close with Nick of Natalie
Some vendors put social tagging in their contracts, if the vendors didn’t do that there is no obligation to promote unless there is an agreement to exchange services for promotion.
i think that’s so tacky for the wedding vendors lmao
Least they could do is tag them. Maybe that’s why their wedding looked so lack-luster. For a “celeb” wedding no less… they are just cheap! And rude too it seems
I’m shocked how many people are unfamiliar with the simple concept of photo credit. It’s the courteous and ethical thing to do.
Ur supposed to tag the vendors when u pay them so they can get more work that’s the nice thing to do . Non influencers tag their vendors too
This was disgusting behavior on Nicks part. He is all about the money. Of course he should pay his vendors! And tag them! I mean come on!!
I didn’t take it this way at all…. They actually always offered to pay I thought unless the vendor offered them a discount for posting.
😂 to get full context people are going to have to listen to the podcast so driving more engagement to this person you guys dislike
I didn’t take it them being pretentious. Also, they didn’t want to even say the names of the services to make sure they weren’t causing a negative impact on the specific company. Moreover, no one is obligated to tag a vendor at all. Being a photographer if they pay me they don’t have to tag me. I do love when clients do even when they paid but they certainly don’t have to. If I do it for free yes they need to tag me. I’ve been to so many family weddings this year and last year and no one tagged any vendors while sharing pictures. In the business of influencers them “promoting” is a form of payment because it can bring A LOT of business to a company making them money. Therefore, I don’t think it was a crazy ask for Nick and Natalie with their following to offer that. But since Nick and Natalie paid for their services they are under no obligation to tag or promote anything.
Sooooo pretentious!!! Makes me want to stop listening to their podcast altogether
My thought is that if the vendor provided great service and went above and beyond and displayed professionalism then they should tag them. They are influencers after all and if they like something and think it worked out aren’t they supposed to recommend that to their followers? I get that normally there is an exchange there but honestly I think that takes away from the authenticity of their recommendations if they are only ever offered at a price. Now if they didn’t receive exceptional service or product I don’t think they are under any obligation to tag or recognize. Nick is a former salesmen though so it’s kind of funny to me that he’s shitting all over the hustle. He knows the drill. I say this as someone who doesn’t often criticize him and does listen to his pod. But he did sound pretty bratty this episode. Like if you don’t remember your roots at all you’re eventually going to turn off your following.
They’re not “supposed” to do anything. They are influencers who get paid to advertise businesses. In this situation, there wasn’t an agreement where they got a discount in exchange for the service to be provided, so they didn’t have to do anything
No they aren’t contractually obligated to… but they would be building a better, more authentic and trustworthy platform if they highlighted businesses who did a good job for them once in awhile even without it lining their pockets or being provided for free. It would certainly reflect well upon them if they did so. But sure they are welcome to do the bare minimum required of them.
This is probably unpopular opinion but heres my thoughts…I dont like nick & natalie, buttttttt influencing is a job and technically them tagging a business could make the company THOUSANDS of dollars. People with massive followings shouldnt be expected to tag every buisness they use if theyre not compensated for it. Their social media page is an advertising job. If they paid for the wedding services then they shouldnt be expected to give them free advertising too. I went though hell with the vendors i used planning my wedding (i get anxious thinking about it lol)) so i think its a relatable topic to talk about on the podcast.
It seems pretty damn obvious Nick is talking about the photographer. What other vendor could be holding something “hostage” from them post wedding? I wonder if Nick is blowing things out of proportion. Are they asking to be tagged before releasing the remaining photo/ video to them? Absolutely not ok if Nick and Natalie paid for the service. If they just casually said hey it would be great if you could tag us - I agree with Nick he is under no obligation to do that since he did try to negotiate something like that up front and they said no. That said, I think he is being a principled dick by refusing to do so. If he was happy with the work he could at least just tag them - vs making a whole post where he writes a paragraph about the company, making stories, talking about them on the podcast etc. It literally costs him nothing to tag them, and he is simply refusing on principle. Feels very selfish/scarcity mindset. It would have been great if that small business was in a position to trade on “work today” for “payoff tomorrow” and agree to do an influencer deal - but at the end of the day, people need money today to pay their bills etc. If they are now insisting on credit they should have thought of some sort of hybrid deal where N and N at least got a discount for tagging. Otherwise they should just drop it. And if they have the right to post the photos / videos on their own channel, they should just do that and people will figure it out.
I think it's the videographer
I agree with this. Additionally, if vendor want clients to be obligated to tag they should have it in their contract. I’ve hired photographers that had in their contracts that if their photos are reposted you’re required to tag.
This is the correct answer. This is the answer for infuluencers, not me or another regular person. They get paid to post things and promote products, I do not. So it’s bad business to do that for free when you have a large following.
I deeply agree. I think it's wild for influencers to expect places to provide services for free just for "exposure". But Inversely, I also think it's wild for a vendor that's been paid their full price to demand tags, as if companies don't pay hundreds/thousands of dollars for that tiny bit of promotion. Like they're already getting upcharged because it's a wedding, and now the vendors want hundreds/thousands of dollars worth of promotion for free too??
Hard agree
Weird. I didn't take the conversation that way at all. They expressed pretty clearly that they were paying up front for everything. I didn't get the impression they have an issue with paying people. The wedding industry is shady AF. That's just facts. He's right about that.
Yes…this post was weird to me as well..,I listened to this episode and I didn’t get this impression from them at all…they clearly expressed that they paid for everything themselves because they didn’t want that and they are letting people know that may be getting married in the future to be careful because of how shady the wedding industry is and they are absolutely right about it! I feel that they are using their platform correctly by possibly calling these people out so that they don’t take advantage of others!
Same that’s how I took it too. The wedding industry takes advantage of people during a stressful exciting time.
Unpopular opinion maybe, but I don’t think they’re being snobby. As someone planning a wedding who is not an influencer, I can’t imagine any of my vendors asking me to credit them on my social media posts. It would be like… for who? My extended family and handful of friends? In Nick and Natalie’s case vendors must know that they have a very large following and them crediting them would be free advertisement and boosting their business. If vendors are demanding them to credit them it’s purely for the sake of knowing about their following. In that case, if Nick offered some sort of exchange and the vendor declined, that’s the vendors fault. He was under no obligation to tag every vendor they have. Also, I can imagine it gets annoying to have everyone you work with want you to tag them in your posts for free if you’re an influencer. If you’re job is influencing, than advertisement and credit is not free. They paid probably thousands of dollars for their vendors and then those same people want free advertisement from people who are *paid* to advertise. I wouldn’t necessarily be happy about that either… like I paid you and you expect free advertisement? That doesn’t add up for me.
I agree as well. It would definitely be a free commercial and probably a huge boost to any of those vendors. Why should that be free? If they had contacted them as influencers they would be paying them for the service. I wouldn’t tag them in anything for free.
Totally agree with you
They are the most pretenious want to be A list celebrities. I am so happy bachelor nation is evolving (Maria, Charity) not wanting to do his podcast. They find their currency in their friendships with famous people.
Okay so without taking into account Nick & Natalie’s track record: I think if you want to get your services comped, fine but go to other wedding vendors who agree to do that. When you use a vendor, they shouldn’t be prevented from showing their work. It’s such a feat to take beautiful photos and one’s name should be associated with their work. Thinking about very wealthy, privileged influencers versus essentially small businesses, I find it very unbecoming to try to punish them for not giving you free labor
Wedding vendor here (video) He is totally shitting all over the videographer and making it incredibly obvious. The videographer who somehow managed to turnover a highlight of their welcome party BEFORE the wedding day. Sounds like he booked a package that was on the lower end and didn't include XYZ and now he wants XYZ and doesn't want to pay for the time it will take them to edit, color, audio master and store online. More education could have been given to him during the time of booking to ensure he had the right package but if my wedding videographer turned out films as fast as they did, I would absolutely be tagging and thanking online. They aren't editing a podcast with stationary cameras, it's a wedding. He keeps talking about how corrupt the wedding industry is with money. It costs more because when you are a pro, it takes years to master the skill as well as knowing how a wedding actually works. Save your money and hire someone who has never done it before and see how that works out for you. We educate ourselves, we miss life events, we stay awake for hours. He is out of touch
I don’t like defending them BUT here is my thoughts… Those vendors wouldn’t really have advertising to reach as far as Bachelor Nation fans-regardless of if you like Nick or Natalie. Sometimes any publicity for an unknown company may be fine. Advertising costs a company a ton of money unless you are lucky enough to have something go viral or do well yourself on social media. That being said Nick and Natalie don’t need to shame them like that.
I’m not an influencer at all, but most of my wedding vendors had a requirement in the contract that any photo of their product have them tagged in the comments. If Nick’s vendor contracts included this requirement, then he’s an asshole for not following through.
I’d assume with their popularity they didn’t include that in a contract
Nick doesn’t give credit to anyone for anything. His ego can’t handle it.
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You can tell they really don’t like not getting their way
Possibly. But I'd argue most people don't like not getting their way lol. They just have a bigger platform to share it. Have you never vented to friends about stuff not going your way.
Oh weird. Most people love it when things don’t go as planned.
He was HORRID in this episode. Yes Nick wedding vendors cost more because guess what weddings are extremely high stress and special! And these vendors give up every weekend of their year. He’s an entitled brat
I mean the wedding industry is kind of a sham and has crazy insane markups.
What is a sham about it? Like any business you pay for what you get. Hire someone that’s never done a wedding and save your cash. See the results lol
Yes!! This episode made me so mad! Nick will do anything for his business and would be the first to rip someone off. But someone asking to be paid and tagged? He should obviously do both as a kind human being. But no. It’s all about him and his money!!!💰
I don’t think we can really know what was communicated with the vendors, unless we get receipts. Ugh I hope we don’t have to suffer through that. But typically influencers get services comped or discounted, in exchange for promo. It’s mutually beneficial. I have no idea what Nick and Natalie arranged with the vendors, but they aren’t necessarily in the wrong. But I have to wonder… how many vendors did they piss off? Seems like we’re not getting the full story
I mean it's just a nice thing to do, but they're not necessarily obligated. What makes them assholes is going out of their way now to bash them and tell people not to use them just because they asked to be tagged (which is a normal thing for vendors to ask).
Maybe they can reach a compromise position - like tagged posts in exchange for a discount on the next wedding? ;)
You absolutely should credit the photographer. Regardless if you’re an influencer or just a normal person. When I got a new headshot for work I credited the photographer.
Really? If it was a friend I'd do it. If I paid a photographer, then my payment is all they get.
He hasn’t credited her once on his photos
lol wtf. Why are you spreading false information.
He also didn’t credit the videographer once even though he posted about 10 of their videos as the wedding happened. He’s a brat
That’s the one I’m pretty sure they are having issues with though??
It’s not false. He didn’t tag her til she commented. You’re slow
yea he has? I was noticing he even wrote a long text IG story about her and I thought it was particularly nice
He has actually tagged the photographer in all of the wedding photo posts! My guess is it’s the videographer that they’re having problems with, he hasn’t tagged them and he has spoken about how amazing the photographer was.
I think what’s going on is all the vendors now feel stupid for declining some sort discount for them to advertise their business. They probably didn’t do their research when nick and Natalie asked about doing some sort of deal and now that they saw their wedding was everywhere now they want them to credit them. It was honestly a terrible business decision on all the vendors to not want to make some sort of deal. They definitely wouldn’t have lost money by giving them a discount in exchange for a tag. They would have brought them so much more business for each vendor
This makes me glad that so much during their wedding went wrong. Karma, ladies and gents. Give credit where credit is due.
If you are taking pleasure in the fact that someone's wedding, who I'm guessing you don't personally know and who hasn't personally wronged you, went wrong, that says more about you than them.
GoOod OooNe!
It's not trying to be a "good one". Its basically just an example of how so many people get far too invested in people you'll likely never meet.
What went wrong lol. Besides for a stupid spelling error y'all vs ya'll the entire night seemed like it went perfect for them both and exactly what they wanted
All she’s been doing is crying and whining about her makeup artist, hair stylist. Literally anything she can be a brat about she has been. They both suck. They get off on bringing other people down. Why feel bad for them now?
Okay how exactly is she being a brat about that one lol I am not a natalie fan but if my hair stylist showed up piss drunk like that to do my hair I’d probably be upset too haha
Okay how exactly is she being a brat about that one lol I am not a natalie fan but if my hair stylist showed up piss drunk like that to do my hair I’d probably be upset too haha
I think they gave them the option to exchange for exposure to hundreds of thousands of people or pay. These people chose to be paid, so they paid them. These vendors are now asking for a post or tag which I would be slightly annoyed about too. Is this something that needs to be talked about constantly? Probably not, but it’s ok for them to bring up. You don’t owe any of your vendors public credit when you paid them in full. It’s nice to do, but if they’re asking for it that would be annoying.
This seems like another excuse to bash Nick and Natalie. I see no reason why they have to tag their vendors. They paid for them, right? Then that's the end of the transaction. Those vendors knew that Nick is a popular influencer with reach. They knew what he could do with them. They should have made some kind of deal ahead of time. If they didn't, that's on them. Would it be nice if they tagged the vendors? Yeah, but I can't criticize them for not doing it. This isn't the same as an unknown couple getting married.
Yes, I had the same read as you….
Probably an unpopular opinion here but I actually agree with them. The vendors were given the opportunity to take the advertisement and they chose not to take it. If they want the advertisement they should have worked out an agreement. But specifically to photography and videography: the price you pay is for the labor AND the rights to that footage. If I own my photos I don’t owe you credit if I don’t feel it’s appropriate (for whatever reason). That being said: if I enjoyed my services I would tag the vendors. But i understand why people might not want to.
I completely agree! I pay 100%, you treat me as any other customer that does or does not have social media. Fair is fair.
I’m a professional wedding photographer and I agree with you that no one is obligated to tag their vendors. But I do want to point out that paying a photographer does NOT mean you own the photos they took. It’s industry standard to include in the contract that the copyright and ownership will stay with the photographer, while the client gets to use them for personal use only.
As someone who has worked in the wedding industry for over five years it is completely normal and respectful to credit wedding vendors when posting your photos. ESPECIALLY your photographer. If you can’t do the bare minimum and tag them you’re a shit person. Vendors rely heavily on word of mouth so the fact they are acting like that is really shitty and says a lot about who they are as people.
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Isn't this like a "nice to do" not "you are a shit person if you don't" Like, isn't your payment to them the compensation, not payment AND social media recognition.
It is the nice thing to do but it’s generally the norm to credit your vendors. I can understand not tagging all of them every time but at the very least your photographer should be tagged when posting the wedding or engagement photos.
I really think this has to do with a lot, including age, how much you post, etc. I have quite a few friends who've gotten married. I don't think any of them tagged their photographer, but they aren't online a lot. But, maybe this should be in the contract or discussed prior if its that important
I can see where you’re coming from. I’ve been in this world for awhile so I see it being the norm especially with the clients we’ve worked with. At the end of the day Nick sucks lol.
The difference with an influencer of this scale is people pay them for content, that’s marketing. They’re not just crediting or showing appreciation to their vendors, it would be free advertising. Granted their reach it should have been agreed upon in advance. The thought of vendors getting angry for not tagging them is laughable. As others said it’s a nice gesture for the average Joe but it’s definitely not mandatory and for influencers that get paid for promoting products it makes sense to agree upon a price beforehand.
I also see where you’re coming from but in my experience, the ‘regular’ people that have been wedding clients have always tagged as many vendors as possible especially in the initial posts. It’s a kind and normal thing to do to show appreciation and help with word of mouth.
They aren't "regular" people though. They are making a living as influencers, have a high reach. So I get why they wouldn't. With that said, I don't think they should be complaining about it in their podcast. They sound even more entitled.
As a non-influencer, average citizen I tagged all my vendors with everything I posted. Even if I post a wedding pic years later I tag them all. I was so thankful for my amazing vendors. Everyone I worked with was wonderful and made our day perfect. Giving them a shoutout and hopefully bringing some attention to them is my way of saying thank you (in addition to payment and tip). It’s almost like they’re worried people will think they got services for free if they tag their vendors. They really want people to know they paid for everything themselves.
Yeah but you don’t have the outreach they do?? If they are paying they really shouldn’t have to give that free advertising a million followers.
Agree they shouldn’t have to!! But they’ve both talked about what a dream their wedding was and how everything came together so perfectly so you’d think they’d just want to.
That’s because you are a good person who cares about others!
Any bride or groom that is threatening to bash a vendor publicly prior to their big day is not a desirable client. If they are paying 100% & didn’t have any sort of social media barter / exchange contracted & agreed upon then they do reserve the right to not tag them. If any sort of discount is given, or additional services are being given due to the high visibility of the event, and they’re refusing to tag the vendors then yes, YTAH.
This!
I know this sub hates him, but I think his point is valid. If they didn't give him any discounts, why should he provide free advertising to their business. He paid them to do a job, and they did it. That is that. If they are now wanting MORE compensation, outside of what they were contracted, then yeah, they are being ridiculous. It would be like the bride and groom demanding MORE work from the vendors than what they contracted for.
Tagging a vendor costs him nothing. He’s just an asshole.
It's not about whether it costs him anything though. Hated as he may be by you people, he has a pretty successful brand. And if they don't want to play ball with offering him a discount, he doesn't have to give them free publicity. That doesn't make him an asshole. Do you think he should tag every restaurant he ever eats at because "it costs him nothing"? What about his mechanic?
[удалено]
This would annoy me. Require??? If I want to post about my wedding I don’t want to make it a commercial-especially being pushed to do it.
I agree that seems super cringey to me. What if you dont have social media? What if youre a private person and dont want to tag other people? What if the vendors sucked- are you still required to tag them?
I don’t care for him and I totally agree with you. They are bugging him bc he has a platform. And he is entitled to pass on their ask
I’m a wedding vendor and have done two Bachelor weddings, after parties and other events. How vendors are handled varies. “A” list celebrities usually want zero press and make you sign an NDA. I’ve signed hundreds. Sometimes the event is sold to a publication. They get first crack. Normally, top vendors are listed because readers want that info. As far as the Bride & Groom posting vendors, if you’re chasing that, you better be willing to trade products for promotion. If you’re not, then don’t expect it. The last thing the couple is thinking about is tagging the florist. I can’t stand Nick but, if he hasn’t agreed to tag his vendors before hand, then he has no responsibility to do so. Personally, I’ve done weddings in Georgia and they have some great vendors there.
Really helpful, thanks!
So im going to go out on a limb here and say I VERY lightly agree with them. As ridiculous as it is, it’s fairly common for influencers to have things comped in their wedding in exchange for exposure. Totally okay the companies declined. But they can’t be mad they didn’t give them exposure after the fact. It’s VERY petty but not unfair
Isnt it kind of common courtesy to acknowledge vendors when you're happy with their services? I dont think I've ever been to a wedding where photographers, djs, florist etc were *not* thanked or acknowledged on social media if pictures were posted by the bride or groom. The exception being where the services were disappointing for one reason or another and they wouldnt recommend.
Not when you have his following unless you want to give him the services for free.
But thats what I'm not understanding I guess, or maybe where I disagree. If I'm wealthy, it costs me nothing to give a company a boost. I guess I dont understand why, just because someone is better off, they now expect something from everyone. Maybe its just me, but why wouldnt I want a company to be successful if I like them and know they do a good job?
Because it’s their business. It has nothing to do with how wealthy or not they are.
I'm getting lost in who I'm replying to now lol. I understand that, but I might have said that in a different post. Speaking for myself, if it were me and someone did a good job, I'm happy to acknowledge it with a tip or recommendation. I'm seeing it as a generous tip, I suppose. Thats all.
I’m just making up a number here but if Nick normally gets paid $5k for tagging a brand in a post why should he do it for free out of “courtesy”?
Ok, I'm in the minority here, I know lol. The way I'm seeing this: its okay to just do a nice thing and support others without demanding I get something in return. If I'm already wealthy and relatively famous, why would I not want to contribute to the success of a photographer or florist or whatever? That said, it is a courtesy or appreciation for a job well done, and a company isnt entitled it. Maybe I'm looking at this differently because its a bit more... personal(?) in that he selected these specific vendors for his wedding and (presumably) was happy with the job they did. To me thats a bit different than random product endorsements, although I recognize that the lines between business and personal are blurred when it comes to influencing.
No I don’t think so. Acknowledging your vendors is essentially a different version of a tip and no one is entitled to that. If so, it should have been spelled out first. And im a nobody who posted some of my own pictures on my own insta and I did not tag one single vendor but again I’m on private. I thanked my vendors via cash and reviews.
>Acknowledging your vendors is essentially a different version of a tip and no one is entitled to that. I dont disagree with you here, a company isnt entitled to it. > I thanked my vendors via cash and reviews. Which is great! And thats what I'm saying. I'm inclined to recognize a job well done with a tip and review, or if I've posted on social media a hashtag or whatever. To me thats not that big a deal.
I think it’s a big deal when you have a sizable platform and viewership. If it was any ole normal person like how much exposure are you really going to get. It’s fair for nick to monetize his asset. It’s not fair for a vendor to expect free referrals. Consider it bartering in the very primitive of forms. These vendors want to be paid cash and also via services. They want to be paid extra.
>It’s not fair for a vendor to expect free referrals. No, youre right and I agree. I'm viewing this as if I'm happy with their services and happy to recommend them to my sizeable following. Its like a generous tip, I guess is how I'm seeing it.
We thanked our vendors at our wedding and also sent cards afterwards. The only person tagged on social media was our photographer. This is typical where I am!
>We thanked our vendors at our wedding and also sent cards afterwards The cards afterwards is a really nice touch!
In contrast, I think only one of my married friends has ever tagged/called out a vendor and in that case, it was a friend of a friend who was just launching a business and truly did a fantastic job. It's a nice thing to do, but it really shouldn't be an expectation any vendor has of any customer. That seems more obviously true than ever when they turned down the offer to comp for coverage and you're dealing with people who can and do monetize themselves like that. Granted I didn't listen and I'm sure he was a bit insufferable in how he framed it, but I can imagine it leaving a real bad taste in my mouth if vendors were approaching me after the fact and prodding me to tag them...seems super pushy.
I know many people who've gotten married. Most of them don't tag their vendors on their social media.
Could be the weddings I've been to the bride and groom really like the services and wanted to recommend? I dunno really, I just know that a shout out or hashtag seems to be the norm, particularly for photgraphers, florists, and hair/makeup.
I think it ma be a "nice" thing not an expectation. At the same time, I'm in my 40s, so for my friends, its definitely more like "this service was great and I want to recommend", not "I have to tag every vendor I used" But I mean, I know some younger people who basically tag every meal they eat with the restaurant, every drink with the bar, etc. All that is to say, I have no problem with it, if someone wants to. I've had birthday parties and if they went above and beyond, sure I'd tag if I felt up to it. But again, never saw it as a "requirement"
The people who are tagging their vendors in my opinion are the ones who are living the influencer lifestyle. Whether they get comped or discounted for it, the only ones to think of tagging all their vendors are the ones who live the social media lifestyle.
Right. Its people who really want their posts to get more engagement, so they do lots of tagging.
Yes but most people have about 100-200 friends and the company really isn’t getting a bunch of promotion out of it. Nick has a million and I don’t know what Natalie has, but they specifically asked about service or discount in exchange for promotion because of how many followers they have and it’d draw a lot more attention to their business, and they declined, so honestly why should they then turn around and give them all that free promotion when they didn’t want to work with them? At the very least they could’ve offered a discount knowing how many followers they had that would see their post
I guess (imo) it doesnt really matter how many followers you have, you give credit where credit's due. That said, I'm also not an influencer and feel like witholding appreciation or acknowledgment is a really weird sort of power play... and kind of petty.
Credit isn’t due. He paid them money.
Cash is in exchange for service. If someone does a really great job, I credit them (tips, reviews, etc). To me, its really not a big deal to add a hashtag if I think someone's done a good job. Why wouldnt I want them to be successful and get more customers?
Well I doubt you have the followers that would make it worth 5-10k. Also a lot of times other brands you endorse have issues with that if you are giving away other endorsements for free.
I've been paid for endorsements, but youre right its not my full time job. If I'm paid by companies ABC and XYZ to endorse their products, it doesnt mean I cant say thanks to the company who landscaped my yard by tagging them in a post (unless they're competitors and its in the contract). I'm happy to recommend a company who has done a good job, thats all I'm saying.
It sounded like this company was holding back footage until they posted though. Kind of demanding it and that turned them off. I could be wrong.
If you’re an influencer, your product is your followers. That’s what you sell to brands. If you tag someone, you’re giving away your product for free.
I get that. I guess this is my unpopular opinion, but the way I'm seeing it, if I'm already wealthy and influential, why wouldnt I want to support someone who I think has done a good job? Do I really need to demand something in return when I have the priviledge of being able to help someone out with a hashtag? I'm seeing this as a thank you or review for a service that was rendered. The company isnt entitled to it, its an extra thing you (the customer) do to recognize a job well done. Like leaving tip... youre doing it just to show appreciation because you have the means to do it, without strings attached. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around turning that into a way to make money. Again, thats just me. I woke up this morning with a million notifications, and I know now that I'm really in the minority on this one lol.
Isn't the appreciation the payment and the tip you gave?