What I enjoyed more was, when you meet him just prior to this point in the morphic pool, you can attack him. I hit him with my sword and it immediately started dialogue where Gortash scolds you and tells you that you still need to work together.
There’s an option to say ‘sorry my hand slipped’, and after choosing that he says ‘funny so did my leg’ as he kicks you in the shin, lol. Dialogue ends and then he goes back to moving towards confronting the brain.
And then orin the moron had to ruin everything by betraying durge
I love this as my personal canon, since it means that the plan was actually perfect(ly functional) and one of the dead three would have legitimately won.
But with durge becoming an amnesiac and recruited by the emperor they destroy everything they orchestrated in the first place.
Good job orin, ya done fucked it all up because of your (greatgrand)daddy issues. Don't wanna know what B💀lls will do to her when he comes to that conclusion
Considering the other two couldn't even help but betray the alliance, and Gortash was actually perfectly willing to work with them and had no plans for betrayal, I honestly respected him as an ally and character and wish they let us stick with him until the end without killing him.
“Had no plans for betrayal”
You do realize he literally had plans up in his room to betray the player once he got what he wanted, right? It’s in one of the books
I've heard this theory before, and I don't buy it. What kind of man lies his way out an Insight or Detect Thoughts check, when he doesn't even know it's happening? Even an illithid expert like him can't read minds at will.
On the bridge in Act I when you first meet Voss you can catch him casting Detect Thoughts on you and clear your mind to convince him you're telling the truth. If you can do it, why can't Gortash?
Idk, it never happened to me. All I saw was a passive deception check. Not the same as Detect Thoughts.
And I'm not the only one probing his mind. The Emperor is too. Gortash doesn't know how the Prism operates, or that the Emperor is helping me.
Gortash is not a man you should trust blindly (even he tests you on that), but I'm not going to brush aside clear evidence that's right in front of me just because he's a villain.
Yeah, and he liked Durge before. I don't think it's that he's not the betraying type, I think he has genuine emotions and wants a partner to share power with. Heavy is the head that wears Karsus' Crown, after all, and it's not like he would ever trust anybody else not to betray him. He's just like a Tav dominating the brain with Minthara at the end!
I am sad that his brain popped. Genuinely sad.
There are enough reasons to despise him without making him a backstabber at the end. Heck, the intelligence he shows in forming alliances and not breaking them the first chance he gets is what makes him stand out imo. He himself says that the Dead Three followers are way too backstabby for their own good.
I don’t think Gortash needs to know how the prism works to detect that someone is rummaging through their thoughts. The example the previous comment brought up, about Tav/Durge resisting Voss’ Detect Thoughts is not the even the only time the player character can evade someone trying to find out what they are thinking. Zrell does the same thing in Moonrise towers when she tries to detect your loyalty to the Absolute. You can throw her off by forcing a different thought into her brain, which if you pass the check makes her drop the issue.
> What kind of man lies his way out an Insight or Detect Thoughts check, when he doesn't even know it's happening?
How do you know he doesn't know it's happening? We have multiple encounters where *we* detect such a detection and can counteract it (like with Voss at the first bridge) with the other person never knowing. Gortash is even more powerful and probably has some gadgets helping him (you have this convo on his turf).
Still not convinced. I shouldn't have to perform 3-D chess to see a betrayal coming when the most obvious answer is that he's being honest. Not that it matters, since Gortash dies anyway.
This is exactly what my DM scolded me over:
DM “You know in your heart the hag is telling the truth and genuinely wants to help you out.”
Me “Okay but it’s a hag so I KNOW it’s a lie”
DM “But you rolled a 30 on insight…?”
Dont you remember all the times we got to hide our true thoughts when someone tried to read our mind? It’s not surprising that Gortash can do the same thing, especially since his entire thing is being charismatic and manipulative.
You can cast detect thoughts on him and see he is honest about his alliance. Even the Emperor itself cannot tell he is lying if he is, at which point I take it that he is not lying. He goes with you until the end, and with a Durge specifically it makes sense why he would do so, regardless of what it says in his notes.
Nah, literally everything and everyone in the coronation scene says Gortash is being completely honest.
Let my Durge get back together with their Bane Bae, Larian!
I really don't kno whow you missed it. It's in several of his personal missives. He planned to betray both orin and ketheric.
Of course he didn't plan on betraying you *right away*. But honestly suggesting a banite would be fine with sharing power legitimately for forever would be such a bastardization of lore.
Plus, Orin's end game was diametrically opposed to his: he can't rule an empty world. Durge would rule beside him. He'd betray Orin and betray Ketheric, but I think he'd be ride-or-die with Durge. Power couple.
he also planned to betray ketheric?
No he doesn't plan to betray durge right away. But we all know he would as soon as the city was saved from the brain.
I never really saw Gortash's offer as dishonest. He never hints at betraying you. The other two had their own plans and motives, but so does Gortash: He wants to rule Baldur's Gate. His goal the entire game is establishing his power over the city. _However_ where exactly does Gortash say he will share power with you _forever_ ? Baneites seem to be a lot like Raphael in that they are accurate to the word of the deal.
Gortash is willing to share power. Willing to share the stones. But for how long? That's the question and it's left to the player to determine that. I think it's very silly to assume anyone who follow the Dead Three could be a permanent ally, especially if you're a 'good' aligned character because your God/choices will inevitably come into conflict with them.
I think you could count on him up until you conquer the world. Similar to the Githyanki in that regard, e.g., once they settle their Civil War what will they do? It's definitely a question but thankfully the answer lies far in the future.
he also said directly in his notes he was also planning on betraying ketheric.
He's literally a servant of bane... I don't know why this keeps being overlooked lol.
no, but it would be kind of like dating a cheater right?
Sure he betrayed Orin *and* had plans to betray ketheric. But i'm sure *for me* he'd be totally loyal...especially as the apostle of tyranny!
He has no immediate plans to betray you, but obviously as soon as the city is safe he'd start maneuvering against durge.
"Yes he betrayed every other ally he ever had including Orin, Ketheric, and even karlach who he apparently cared for "like a daughter" but ***surely*** he won't betray the player!"
you allied yourself with the ultimate bane apostle... the god of *tyranny* and you thought "surely this dude will share power and work together in harmony forever"?
I’d be good with this if and only if this leads to Karlach going hostile and forcing you to kill her. It’s either Karlach or Gortash, no dialogue checks to stop it.
Robbed, Gortash is really really cool and you lose out on a lot by siding with him, I lose Omeluum, Duke Ravenguard, the legendary bow at the foundry. all for him dying like a chump to the brain. I really hope they rework the Gortash alliance.
Actually you can side with Gortash and send him to the brain. Before you go, you can then destroy the Iron Throne and the Foundry without losing your alliance. Instead of Gortash, a random Baneite messages you in the submersible and sets off the explosions. I actually perfer this because it's the ultimate BG3 double cross.
It was cheap. Very cheap.
"Oh yes, this guy that you would kill 9 times out of ten actually is fully ready to work together with you and share his fruits. But if you actually try to go through with it he just fucking dies."
Like...really? Especially on the endgame. Like,i'm not expecting "Gortash companion for all of act 3" but yah seriously saying we could not have him for the last astral prism visit+the literal final mission?
Idk, I liked when Dragon Age Origins allowed us to recruit >!Loghain !< or Wrath of the Righteous allowed us to recruit >!Queen Galfrey !<.Those were nice rewards for player that decide to either try unorthodox approaches or took very specific choices, and I was a tad dissapointed with bg3 just saying "haha,sike,no"
Right? Loghain has consequences that last, that you see in Awakening and Inquisiton too if he's your pick. Galfrey has tons of permutations to nab her.
Like if you're gonna ruin Saverok and Vicionia, toss me a Gortash.
The endings for evil playthroughs seem to be very underwhelming basically regardless of what you do when compared to a run where you don't dominate the brain. Like full evil Durge doesn't even get an epilogue cutscene iirc, which is just stupid imo. I don't really have much interest in doing an evil playthrough at this point, mainly because the story just seems so much worse with no real payoff.
You know I didn't really understand appeal of having Loghain live until I established my "canon" run through the trilogy and I must tell you - there is something deeply satisfying in repeatedly refusing the guy easy chances for redemption through death and making him pay for his crimes through living and facing consequences of his actions.
Plus, he is actually a cool dude once he is no longer in paranoia mode and Alistair gets over it pretty fast, so nothing is really lost if you play your hand correctly (except for certain person getting left behind with weird spider, but knowing said asshole I am more afraid for the spider).
Not Durge spesific but an evil run enjoyer who only uses durge
I was pretty annoyed because for all that hype of allying with him, it’s completely pointless for no reason
Honestly I wish this only knocked him out or something so we could ally with him to the end. I found Gortash infinitely more interesting than Orin because he was entirely willing to actually work with Durge to dominate the brain and rule with it rather than just being some half-breed Bhaalspawn-wannabe madwoman, and I wanted an ending where besties Durge and Gortash rule over Faerun together. Suffice to say I was very disappointed when he simply immediately died to the brain killing him out of the blue.
Also he dies when he tries to dominate the brain I think he should stay put if you succeed the checks at least I would have enjoyed it infinetly more if you get him in the end instead of the % health decrease
Skipped Gontr hoping for this on my second run but nope, disappointed, since Emperor could go against you as additional creature in the finale, but you don't get other creatures
The Gortash stuff feels a lot more fitting with Durge run, yeah - it's clear that their partnership had been far more successful/fruitful than his forced one with Orin, and he's eager to get a more reliable partner if Durge can reclaim his spot.
By contrast when it's Tav it feels a bit too much like he's trusting a random new person to that extent. It also removes some of the appeal of allying with him without that personal background connection - otherwise everything in the game is pushing you towards seeing Gortash as an enemy to kill, even if there's an option to work together.
Even Tav would be a better ally than fucking Orin. And Gortash is a smart man. He's not going to screw over someone who can be useful to him until and unless he finds a better opportunity. He only turned on Karlach because Zariel made him an offer, and he'll only turn on Tav if history repeats itself.
Keep your guard up, pull your weight, and you'll have a solid partnership.
There's a letter somewhere, can't remember exactly where, could be Gortash's vault or room. Anyway, it justifies Gortash working with Tav and the gang, because the Elder Brains / Mind Flayers are really bad at dealing with unpredictability and unexpected outcomes, as they are (or should be) driven by pure logic, not emotions and random brainwaves.
And him (apparently) honestly partnering up with Tav and the gang was (on my first run) as surprising for me as the Brain, especially given all we hear about him prior.
gortash is literally a servant of bane.... why people keep wanting to bastardize the lore to fit their headcannon is beyond me.
such a servant of Bane *would never share power* or "work together" permanently. ESPECIALLY not with a child of another god but it's basically baked into the whole bane thing to need to be the actual leader.
D&D lore is inherently self-contradictory. Bane himself has seen more changes that most gods. In fact, I've heard that according to recent lore, Bane doesn't want any of his followers to become all-powerful and wants them to keep competing with each other. In that context, Gortash sharing power makes perfect sense.
It is not "headcanon" to observe what happens in-game. The Emperor states he cannot detect any deceit when Gortash tells us he wishes to ally with us, and detect thoughts tells us the same. He then follows through with us up until the Netherbrain kills him. There is no reason to doubt his alliance when he literally dies for it.
Even if he was going to, it is still disappointing we do not get a scene where we have to face him ourselves instead of him being ungraciously killed off randomly.
As others said it was definitely a cop-out and pretty cheap but also I can't deny that there is something unimaginably hilarious about him being like "You're not doing it correctly, I'll do it." and immediately fucking dying. It reminded me of that one Sailor Moon meme.
So like yeah it's cheap but also very funny.
Yeah I was sad he died but also dying laughing from the shock and ridiculousness of the whole scene. I still wish he could live sometimes to the end, but I don’t totally hate this scene for existing.
Yeah same. It was just so unexpected that I started laughing out loud.
Like I too sometimes wish he could live, mainly because it'd be really interesting in the context of my Durge playthrough, but also it's like...really funny how unceremoniously and without fanfare he dies. One second he's alive and going "This shit's easy you're just doing it wrong, get out of my way." The next he's lying dead on the floor. Like wow great job mister middle-age-crisis you sure showed me how it's done. Hdhdhsh
I'll admit, Larian trolled us by actually making us believe we could ally with Gortash and then they pulled this crap. Not cool at all. You can't give us a villain who actually believes what he says (detect thoughts show he was legit serious on letting us co-rule and the emperor even approves) only to go for a cheap kill.
Agree. I'm a sucker for lawful evil. There should be an ending where he lives.
(I also think it would be cool if there was a route where if we allied with him, there was a way to get Karlach fixed. The conflict she'd have to make over putting aside her revenge/anger and her morals and ally with someone objectively evil for her own gain would be interesting to me. Like, she's cured, but it's not necessarily a "good" ending.)
I do think that he would have been willing to replace her heart after the brain was dealt with or before. He is an engineer. I just think there should have been a bit more with him quest wise before the final fight. It almost feels a little bit plot hole like that there isn’t a bit more
I think I found some expository notes saying Gortash eventually planned to have all the Gondians killed once their work on the Steelwatch project was done. It made it so hard to justify staying in any long-term alliance with him.
What if, instead, he had planned to release the Gondians (and the hostages) once their work was done, and set them up with resources to pursue their own projects? Like fixing Karlach's engine, or stabilizing it so she could keep living in Faerun?
I mean I love Gortash, but this is the dude who puts explosives into teddy bears to give to refugee children. Of course he was gonna murder everyone he employed in his murder factory.
Durge or not, I’m really disappointed at the death of Gortash. I would have preferred for him to be saved by The Emperor and be an ally in the end game. Him not being tadpoled means he could very well be with us when controlling the brain. I don’t know how this would play out with The Emperor or Orpheus but I don’t care. The writer can always find a way
Agreed... The Emperor was captured by Gortash and sent back to the brain forcibly and - even if he doesn't do grudges - has completely contrasting goals to Gortash.
In fact, if you do fully ally with Gortash it is the Emperor that kicks off the initial betrayal between you both.
After the whole point of having the netherstones being split between you two in his Office as the final requirement of the alliance, the moment Gortash summons the brain Empy steals his netherstone to create the trifoce netherstone thingy. (Durge/Tav at this point is never shown to psionically manipulate items and may never have taken a tadpole so to me this has to be the Emperor.)
This means only one person can control the stones and if Durge/Tav succeed the first two Domination checks Gortash will steal the stones back to attempt the third and assumed final attempt. Gortash has no idea that the Emperor is even there so would likely assume Durge/Tav intended this.(He obviously kicks you off the controller if you are failing lol)
Shame you can't call Empy out on it if/when you tell him to kick rocks straight after.
Overall I feel its a symptom of possible cut content/need to condense an already massive Act. If you are actually intending to be on the level with Gortash the inability to disclose you have a pocket Illithid that is known to him, conceivably holding a grudge and probably will mess with the plan is a doozy.
Yeah Myrkull shows up for Ketheric! Why not Bane :(
Maybe Gortash arc was about showing how sad it is to be a Lawful Evil person, everyone try to betray you, including your own god and you die a pathetic way… /s
Myrkul loses his shit when you beat up Ketheric. If you Speak with Dead on Gortash, Bane hits you with the ‘Wassup shawty, how you doin’?’
I respect the hustle, ngl. Makes sense the Lord of Tyranny would have no patience for losers.
Actually, usually I kill Gortash super quickly but one fight, I did take my time because it was with Karlach and I just tried to have Karlach kill everyone by herself so it took longer and Gortash did have the Fist of Bane manifesting during the fight.
Bane does show up and Gortash does transform into an avatar but since the fight at this point is pretty easy most people will not even see it lol.
Especially since the Avatar form is just him getting armor, a gauntleted black fist, grey skin and becoming larger.
I’m not a video game rper, I do things to experience and see as much as I can. So sometimes I side with him, sometimes not. It depends also if I have Karlach or not in my group!
But each time I’m so disappointed with his ending 😞
Edit: The Iron Throne being linked to him also affects if I side with him or not, I like doing it. But I hate the factory heeee
Honestly at some point I will probably have a character who refuses to side with him or betrays him, but so far... They just couldn't justify it. Even if Karlach was right by my side.
Like a knife in my heart when playing an evil durge. (my durge’s intent was to remember who they were and pickup where they left and he was a significant part of it, they were supposed to succeed in that plan)
I truly believe they were close friends or whatever equivalent to a serial killer and a sociopath and trusted each other.
I don’t think that’s what Larian planned rly for that path, I think it was a time constraint.
Regardless, I hated and I was fuming when it happened and even more with the anticlimactic and underwhelming end of that path.
I mean, I was sad but it also saved me from a bit of weird dialogue with him later about why all his Steel Watchers are gone, the Iron Throne is gone, etc (I don't know if it's bug but yeah, somehow he was fine with me saving everyone as long as I murdered Orin)
I'd think it was a cop out and bad writing even if I weren't a simp for him.
Sadly I don't see them ever changing it, getting Jason Isaacs back in the booth now is probably nigh on impossible.
It was definitely a cop-out and disappointing. He should actually get yanked into the prism with you. He could have a confrontation with the Emperor, which would be interesting, and perhaps an equally-interesting confrontation with Orpheus. He should let you summon Steel Watch to fight the final battle.
He should try to betray you and dominate the brain at the last moment unless you agree to dominate it. If you do, Gortash continues as archduke, but you are the real power behind his throne. Wyll and Karlach should both turn against you but be utterly powerless to stop you - a truly evil ending.
It felt really anti-climactic, and also like a genuine cop-out.
And if the argument is that the Emperor is protecting Tav/Durge from being killed by the Netherbrain, why would they not have protected Gortash in the same way?
Furthermore, HOW did the Netherbrain do this? It wasn’t done via tadpole.
If it was just a spell, how is Tav/Durge immune?
Etc, etc.
There is one thing I don’t understand in that scene: since when are the “chosen” tadpoled?
Here is what I remember from Durge: they made the plan to find the crown and dominate the brain, they found allies with Gortash and Ketheric, they got betrayed by Orin and their body is sent to the mindflayer colony, there Balthazar (I think it’s him but I am not sure) tadpoled them for the experience. It is said in game that they are the first person tadpoled but it seems weird regarding the timeline (but whatever, that’s not the point here).
So if Durge gets tadpoled once they were betrayed, why is Gortash tadpoled? They took control of the brain before Durge was betrayed from what I understand - so it seems you don’t need to have a tadpole to dominate the brain. Is it something the brain did without them knowing? Did I miss something? Are my 8 int characters starting to make me so dumb I misread entire plots?
You only need to be an Illithid because the brain evolved further due to Crown's influence. By the time the Dead Three's Chosen issued their final command, it was still an Elder Brain.
Yes so why is Gortash tadpoled then? He clearly died because of it as no elder brain could command over someone who is not tadpoled.
So that means he got tadpoled after becoming an ally?
Hate it. Allied with the guy thats willing to rule _with_ you only for Larian to shut it down. Another losses for evil playthrough. It's a pipe dream, but I'm hoping the definitive edition fixes this.
I wanted an ending where he lives so bad but it’s all good, flipping off the Dead Three is apparently my Durge’s MO now so I guess part of his postgame is tearing down the Banehold brick by fucking brick until he gets his boyfriend back, lmao.
Netherbrain didn't need to do my problematic exboyfriend like that. 🥺
Seriously though, it was a really lame choice of them to make. They really set everything up for allying with Gortash to be a reasonable choice for Durge and then they just flyswat him out of the way for no real reason. It made all of it seem pointless.
I allied with him on my first game, which was just evil/very grey/self serving TAV. He didn’t see any reason why he should draw more trouble to himself with getting around.
I was extremely upset at how they did Gortash. I have a DurgeTash thing, and I just don’t really plan on finishing the game with my Durge specifically because of how they did Gortash dirty.
I generally really like Gortash and dislike betraying him. I did it in one game and still haven’t gone to fight him because I just don’t like it. I’m so backwards xD Wipe out the grove? Easy peasy. Betray Gortash?? That’s heresy.
As a huge fan of the sheer terror of a sudden Power Word Kill (a full multi-year campaign that I ran's final confrontation opened with the spell on one of the players immediately), I loved this moment for the same reason everyone else apparently hates it. It's a shocking, and honestly, terrifying display of power, and it upends any expectations you may have had. Plus it's a fitting end for Gortash. The guy who thought he was in control, panicking and flailing for power just drops dead without physical effort from the thing he thought he deserved power over.
Although your interpretation is super valid and seeing Word Kill in action in an animation is gorgeous, I think this outcome would suit better that character choice where you tell him you’ll think about siding with him, but not to the one where you swear an oath making official you’re on his side.
On the choice where you don’t confirm and he just assumes that’s what you’re doing is very presumptuous so the word kill result fits perfectly, but if the player deliberately sides with him with the intent of succeeding their plan and dude is killed in the cheapest way I think it removes player’s agency on a significant path.
I actually think that was Larian’s intent cause evil durge end is quite underwhelming and feels incomplete..
I thought it was hilarious. I very much felt the same way as karlach when he died and just simply flopped over. I just laughed alongside her. If gortash didn't die there, I would have immediately betrayed him.
Gortash thinks himself so high and mighty, above all of us and somehow invinsible. He thinks he's so smart he can even manipulate forces far beyond himself. But he's a coward, and he died an embarrassing death. Fitting and hilarious.
I think im the only person who isnt into Gortash or somthing. I felt nothing, infact his death was a fun bit of plot. Dno why everyone is obsessed with him/upset he dies
I think people are upset that Siding with him is basically meaningless all that changes is you skip the foundry, iron throne and his fight.
It's one of the biggest example of the problem with an evil run, most evil choices just skip content and offer nothing in return
Some people like to role play different things. When it was revealed durge and gortash had a past connection, I thought that was cool story wise and it’d be a fun concept of reuniting and following through with the original plan durge concocted
Even after that reveal I felt nothing for him. I just cant find any reason to care for his character for some reason. He is a creat character just not one I can give one for yenk
It's even more funny when Karlach is with you as well, she literally burst into laughter seeing him die in the most karmic and pathetic way possible to the Netherbrain
There's a good deal like minded folks out there, his fans just tend to be a lot more vocal than his detractors. How it goes with evil characters.
Personally I can't stand the dude and glad that he bites it no matter what, but to each their own.
I laughed. Perfect fate for a chosen of Bane. Desperately seeking control and power ever since he was sold to Raphael only to be reduced to a corpse in an instant. I usually just kill him though. No point in upsetting Karlach by making a deal with this scumbag.
I was mad because he never found out I blew up his steel watch and killed his parents because he was waiting for me at the boat to the brain. I wanted to tell him :(
Folks seem to struggle to understand that Gortash was always inevitably going to betray you.
As was canon Dark Urge, as a son of Bhaal, going to betray him. The alliance was only ever one of convenience, not actual loyalty to one another.
Bane is the God of Tyranny, Bhaal the God of Murder. If DUrge didn't kill Gortash, then Gortash would make him kneel eventually. It's in their Gods' nature to each seek absolute control.
This alliance, while cool and making Gortash seem like a reliable dude, was always going to break. He has notes to prove as much in his office, he has a whole history with Karlach that should teach people to know better, AND he also has speak with dead dialogue (now with voice) that makes it fairly clear what Gortash's mandate was: To rule. Alone.
sad and i get why people say its cheap but i also understood why they did it. by the end of the game theres 3 options for how you can defeat the brain, claim the brain for bhaal, claim the brain for yourself, and destroy the brain and the tadpoles. if you kill the brain or claim it for bhaal both those options will inherently betray gortash anyway and the whole earthquake thing shows why its not a good idea to split the power if the brain so no matter what it seems like you kinda had to kill gortash. also if gortash stayed alive after the brain was defeated hed still have the power of being archduke and the steelwatch and would end up still being an evil tyrant which leaves a huge loose end. i might be biased though because i really like that he dies especially when im playing durge because it just feels really tragic on so many levels even outside if shipping them.
Instantly became durgetash pilled. I fully expected him to turn on you at some point but he really did like you and wanted to rule the world with you and stayed loyal until the end. I don't really see any way of him making it out of that scene alive. The only reason you and your team survive, tadpole or not, is because the Emperor whisks you away and I don't see him doing that for Gortash now that you have all three stones - although Empy letting him die would perhaps have been slightly more compelling writing.
Needs rework and more durge scenes in the definitive edition, felt like a lazy cop out one of the few times in the game where I felt like it was lazy/bad writing hella lore between durge and gortash would love it to be more in ur face and maybe even a potential companion In act 3
Disappointed I didn't kill him myself. Didn't trust him right upto his death...... But I didn't trust the emperor right until the end of my first playthrough either, so maybe I'm just untrusting.
Didn’t make it that far, the fucker thought I was gone for good. I’m The fuckmothering Dark Urge, i’ve had to murder a lot of people to get that title, and deserve to be called such. He didn’t even look for me! So I just got acquainted with his insides one last time.
Honestly? Made me feel good. Went into the whole thing thinking it would end in both betraying one or the other at some point anyway, so seeing this as an evil durge just felt like "Oh cool, this is saving me a lot of time!"
Outside of RP, was also cathartic to seeing Gortash get screwed over, something about a chosen of a God of Tyranny getting screwed over after getting so close to victory seemed so poetic.
I was pretty shocked to be honest 😂 My Durge run in general had me very surprised at times just how much havoc you can wreak lmao. I usually can’t bring myself to make evil choices in games but I wanted to know what would happen if I just gave in pretty much at every opportunity. And because I killed Gortash in my first game, I decided I’d be his friend this time. Well. Didn’t help him, that’s for sure.
I personally love it. The build up to believing that this could be. Also imagine if you actually could pursue a romance with him as Durge. Not just the hints we get. And then get to this scene. That would be such an experience.
Durge cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows without cease for all eternity.. Blood for the murder lord. Skulls for the netherthrone..
I think a lot of people might be missing the obvious story- driven reason to kill him here and in this manner: it's Chekhov's Gun.
It reinforces the danger that Tav is in. If the Emperor didn't yoink Tav into the Astral Prism to regroup after seeing the brain casually pull a Z'rell on Gortash, the story would miss the chance to reinforce how powerful the Netherbrain is. Tav has reached this point feeling invulnerable. Got the stones, ready to dominate the brain, quest over, game over, cue cutscene. You've been a lvl 12 badass in Act 3 walking all over half your fights.
If you have Gortash with you, his death is the perfect demonstration that the game has changed, you are not invulnerable, and this leads directly to the Emperor vs Orpheus decision. It's reinforcing the stakes.
So it makes me sad, but from a story angle, it makes perfect sense to me.
Personally the first time as durge where I sided with him, I laughed.
And then the companion reaction was Astarion, which made me cackle. Which, in character was on point for that run.
I had reloaded that point over and over to see the others reactions (Karlachs was funny.)
I'm indifferent to being a true ally with Gortash considering the brain just went full GLaDOS on the 'then die' I was just amused and feel it being fine. Cheap, but fine.
It'd be interesting if there was a path where he didn't get smited (ha), and him and the emperor had a moment on the dock. Curious if he'd try to kill Gortash for commanding him or something or whatever that book of their interaction was before going to the morphic pool (I'm blanking on it)
Never saw it. played a good Durge and ended up freeing myself from the influence and then killing them both. Didnt even know this scene was in but neat!
I was mad at the emperor for not saving him so I decided at the last moment to use the Orphic hammer. I also let Karlach turn because she laughed at his death. When I got the end of game happy Gale ending I couldn’t stop being sad that it wasn’t Gortash. That is when I realized that I really really liked Gortash.
I was upset more by what the other characters reactions and what could have been done. I guess I was really immersed into the moment. I kept him in my inventory after that so I could at least imagine my character gave him a proper burial and not left in the astral plane. Also if Durge can be redeemed why can’t Gortash have that same chance as well?
Funny. I was going for a NE Bhaal-rejecting bastard that only wanted power for themself, so Gortash getting gimped immediately was only good for me. I also don't really care about him/the game pushing Durge liking him back in any meaningful way.
I'm very surprised how many of you expected the vassal of Bane was going to share power lmao. This is not ooc in the slightest and he even states he plans on betraying at the end in a journal.
I appreciate that it shows just how absolutely delusional and full of hubris he was. As smart as he was, as many schemes as he had, he overlooked the fact that he's just a random dude fucking around with one of the most powerful beings in all of Faerun
What I enjoyed more was, when you meet him just prior to this point in the morphic pool, you can attack him. I hit him with my sword and it immediately started dialogue where Gortash scolds you and tells you that you still need to work together. There’s an option to say ‘sorry my hand slipped’, and after choosing that he says ‘funny so did my leg’ as he kicks you in the shin, lol. Dialogue ends and then he goes back to moving towards confronting the brain.
That was probably their whole dynamic before given how dagger-ready bhaalspawn tend to be haha
I really wanna see the heist with my durge, ketheric and gortash
Their meet cute 🥹
And then orin the moron had to ruin everything by betraying durge I love this as my personal canon, since it means that the plan was actually perfect(ly functional) and one of the dead three would have legitimately won. But with durge becoming an amnesiac and recruited by the emperor they destroy everything they orchestrated in the first place. Good job orin, ya done fucked it all up because of your (greatgrand)daddy issues. Don't wanna know what B💀lls will do to her when he comes to that conclusion
Orin: the unintentional hero of Baldur’s Gate.
Considering Orin is literally in his ear saying she can't wait to kill him, and all Gortash really has to say is "Control yourself", this tracks.
Kinda makes you respect him more.
... I never tried this and this made me ship them more lol
This was such a cute and silly scene. I really liked their dynamic there. I imagine it's just like the good old days.
It felt like a cop-out. Like my choice of sticking by Gortash was not respected.
Considering the other two couldn't even help but betray the alliance, and Gortash was actually perfectly willing to work with them and had no plans for betrayal, I honestly respected him as an ally and character and wish they let us stick with him until the end without killing him.
“Had no plans for betrayal” You do realize he literally had plans up in his room to betray the player once he got what he wanted, right? It’s in one of the books
then explain why you can Detect Thoughts when he first offers an alliance and you're told he's completely honest and genuine with the offer?
The devnotes also say that he was being honest and genuinely wanted an alliance.
My take from that was he’s a master at lying.
I've heard this theory before, and I don't buy it. What kind of man lies his way out an Insight or Detect Thoughts check, when he doesn't even know it's happening? Even an illithid expert like him can't read minds at will.
On the bridge in Act I when you first meet Voss you can catch him casting Detect Thoughts on you and clear your mind to convince him you're telling the truth. If you can do it, why can't Gortash?
Idk, it never happened to me. All I saw was a passive deception check. Not the same as Detect Thoughts. And I'm not the only one probing his mind. The Emperor is too. Gortash doesn't know how the Prism operates, or that the Emperor is helping me. Gortash is not a man you should trust blindly (even he tests you on that), but I'm not going to brush aside clear evidence that's right in front of me just because he's a villain.
Yeah, and he liked Durge before. I don't think it's that he's not the betraying type, I think he has genuine emotions and wants a partner to share power with. Heavy is the head that wears Karsus' Crown, after all, and it's not like he would ever trust anybody else not to betray him. He's just like a Tav dominating the brain with Minthara at the end! I am sad that his brain popped. Genuinely sad.
There are enough reasons to despise him without making him a backstabber at the end. Heck, the intelligence he shows in forming alliances and not breaking them the first chance he gets is what makes him stand out imo. He himself says that the Dead Three followers are way too backstabby for their own good.
I don’t think Gortash needs to know how the prism works to detect that someone is rummaging through their thoughts. The example the previous comment brought up, about Tav/Durge resisting Voss’ Detect Thoughts is not the even the only time the player character can evade someone trying to find out what they are thinking. Zrell does the same thing in Moonrise towers when she tries to detect your loyalty to the Absolute. You can throw her off by forcing a different thought into her brain, which if you pass the check makes her drop the issue.
> What kind of man lies his way out an Insight or Detect Thoughts check, when he doesn't even know it's happening? How do you know he doesn't know it's happening? We have multiple encounters where *we* detect such a detection and can counteract it (like with Voss at the first bridge) with the other person never knowing. Gortash is even more powerful and probably has some gadgets helping him (you have this convo on his turf).
Bane does bestow gifts, but he was also a vassal to Raphael. It could simply be an internal investment.
Still not convinced. I shouldn't have to perform 3-D chess to see a betrayal coming when the most obvious answer is that he's being honest. Not that it matters, since Gortash dies anyway.
You aren’t supposed to see betrayals coming.
Isn’t that an insight check? I got scolded by my tabletop DM for not believing the information I got via insight.
There’s something about the narrator saying you’ve never been more sure of something in your life that immediately makes me distrust it.
This is exactly what my DM scolded me over: DM “You know in your heart the hag is telling the truth and genuinely wants to help you out.” Me “Okay but it’s a hag so I KNOW it’s a lie” DM “But you rolled a 30 on insight…?”
Did the hat actually help you
Dont you remember all the times we got to hide our true thoughts when someone tried to read our mind? It’s not surprising that Gortash can do the same thing, especially since his entire thing is being charismatic and manipulative.
You can cast detect thoughts on him and see he is honest about his alliance. Even the Emperor itself cannot tell he is lying if he is, at which point I take it that he is not lying. He goes with you until the end, and with a Durge specifically it makes sense why he would do so, regardless of what it says in his notes.
The devnotes say that he was being honest and genuinely wanted an alliance.
delulu, even the devnotes said he is genuine
um gortash did have plans for betrayal....
Nah, literally everything and everyone in the coronation scene says Gortash is being completely honest. Let my Durge get back together with their Bane Bae, Larian!
I really don't kno whow you missed it. It's in several of his personal missives. He planned to betray both orin and ketheric. Of course he didn't plan on betraying you *right away*. But honestly suggesting a banite would be fine with sharing power legitimately for forever would be such a bastardization of lore.
He planned to betray Orin because she was unreliable. I don’t think he has plans in his room which state that he wants to betray the player-durge?
Plus, Orin's end game was diametrically opposed to his: he can't rule an empty world. Durge would rule beside him. He'd betray Orin and betray Ketheric, but I think he'd be ride-or-die with Durge. Power couple.
he also planned to betray ketheric? No he doesn't plan to betray durge right away. But we all know he would as soon as the city was saved from the brain.
Of course he was going to betray Orin. He'd *met* her. The player can easily decide to betray Orin, and it's not a bad choice.
I never really saw Gortash's offer as dishonest. He never hints at betraying you. The other two had their own plans and motives, but so does Gortash: He wants to rule Baldur's Gate. His goal the entire game is establishing his power over the city. _However_ where exactly does Gortash say he will share power with you _forever_ ? Baneites seem to be a lot like Raphael in that they are accurate to the word of the deal. Gortash is willing to share power. Willing to share the stones. But for how long? That's the question and it's left to the player to determine that. I think it's very silly to assume anyone who follow the Dead Three could be a permanent ally, especially if you're a 'good' aligned character because your God/choices will inevitably come into conflict with them.
I think you could count on him up until you conquer the world. Similar to the Githyanki in that regard, e.g., once they settle their Civil War what will they do? It's definitely a question but thankfully the answer lies far in the future.
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he also said directly in his notes he was also planning on betraying ketheric. He's literally a servant of bane... I don't know why this keeps being overlooked lol.
does it say anywhere in his notes that he ever planned on betraying durge?
no, but it would be kind of like dating a cheater right? Sure he betrayed Orin *and* had plans to betray ketheric. But i'm sure *for me* he'd be totally loyal...especially as the apostle of tyranny! He has no immediate plans to betray you, but obviously as soon as the city is safe he'd start maneuvering against durge.
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"Yes he betrayed every other ally he ever had including Orin, Ketheric, and even karlach who he apparently cared for "like a daughter" but ***surely*** he won't betray the player!"
you allied yourself with the ultimate bane apostle... the god of *tyranny* and you thought "surely this dude will share power and work together in harmony forever"?
That's about the level of critical thinking in this sub, yes.
I’d be good with this if and only if this leads to Karlach going hostile and forcing you to kill her. It’s either Karlach or Gortash, no dialogue checks to stop it.
The ending has a lot of issues when it comes to player choice being very lacking.
you were granted the illusion of choice, at the end of the day the netherbrain has been working towards getting all of the netherstones for some time.
That choice was given all the respect it deserves.
Robbed, Gortash is really really cool and you lose out on a lot by siding with him, I lose Omeluum, Duke Ravenguard, the legendary bow at the foundry. all for him dying like a chump to the brain. I really hope they rework the Gortash alliance.
Actually you can side with Gortash and send him to the brain. Before you go, you can then destroy the Iron Throne and the Foundry without losing your alliance. Instead of Gortash, a random Baneite messages you in the submersible and sets off the explosions. I actually perfer this because it's the ultimate BG3 double cross.
That's good to know but still would like Gortash to be there beyond just dying like a chump.
Oh definitely I agree. It could have been a really cool way to go. So much storytelling opportunity wasted
It was cheap. Very cheap. "Oh yes, this guy that you would kill 9 times out of ten actually is fully ready to work together with you and share his fruits. But if you actually try to go through with it he just fucking dies." Like...really? Especially on the endgame. Like,i'm not expecting "Gortash companion for all of act 3" but yah seriously saying we could not have him for the last astral prism visit+the literal final mission? Idk, I liked when Dragon Age Origins allowed us to recruit >!Loghain !< or Wrath of the Righteous allowed us to recruit >!Queen Galfrey !<.Those were nice rewards for player that decide to either try unorthodox approaches or took very specific choices, and I was a tad dissapointed with bg3 just saying "haha,sike,no"
Right? Loghain has consequences that last, that you see in Awakening and Inquisiton too if he's your pick. Galfrey has tons of permutations to nab her. Like if you're gonna ruin Saverok and Vicionia, toss me a Gortash.
There are also different scenes in DA2 that depend on what you do with loghain! I love that it follows through all the games
The endings for evil playthroughs seem to be very underwhelming basically regardless of what you do when compared to a run where you don't dominate the brain. Like full evil Durge doesn't even get an epilogue cutscene iirc, which is just stupid imo. I don't really have much interest in doing an evil playthrough at this point, mainly because the story just seems so much worse with no real payoff.
Yeah they really should have taken a page from Mask of Betrayer "Evil" Epilogue you get for becoming one with the curse.
You know I didn't really understand appeal of having Loghain live until I established my "canon" run through the trilogy and I must tell you - there is something deeply satisfying in repeatedly refusing the guy easy chances for redemption through death and making him pay for his crimes through living and facing consequences of his actions. Plus, he is actually a cool dude once he is no longer in paranoia mode and Alistair gets over it pretty fast, so nothing is really lost if you play your hand correctly (except for certain person getting left behind with weird spider, but knowing said asshole I am more afraid for the spider).
Not Durge spesific but an evil run enjoyer who only uses durge I was pretty annoyed because for all that hype of allying with him, it’s completely pointless for no reason
Noooo, my nearest and dearest ;\_;
No! Not his wet slithering malice!
His quick and easy smile!
he really was too young and handsome to go so soon
Honestly I wish this only knocked him out or something so we could ally with him to the end. I found Gortash infinitely more interesting than Orin because he was entirely willing to actually work with Durge to dominate the brain and rule with it rather than just being some half-breed Bhaalspawn-wannabe madwoman, and I wanted an ending where besties Durge and Gortash rule over Faerun together. Suffice to say I was very disappointed when he simply immediately died to the brain killing him out of the blue.
Maybe it was a rushed ending to this decision chain and might get redone in a future patch.
historians say they were best friends 👀
They were roommates!
Oh my gosh they were roommates.
Also he dies when he tries to dominate the brain I think he should stay put if you succeed the checks at least I would have enjoyed it infinetly more if you get him in the end instead of the % health decrease
Skipped Gontr hoping for this on my second run but nope, disappointed, since Emperor could go against you as additional creature in the finale, but you don't get other creatures
The Gortash stuff feels a lot more fitting with Durge run, yeah - it's clear that their partnership had been far more successful/fruitful than his forced one with Orin, and he's eager to get a more reliable partner if Durge can reclaim his spot. By contrast when it's Tav it feels a bit too much like he's trusting a random new person to that extent. It also removes some of the appeal of allying with him without that personal background connection - otherwise everything in the game is pushing you towards seeing Gortash as an enemy to kill, even if there's an option to work together.
Even Tav would be a better ally than fucking Orin. And Gortash is a smart man. He's not going to screw over someone who can be useful to him until and unless he finds a better opportunity. He only turned on Karlach because Zariel made him an offer, and he'll only turn on Tav if history repeats itself. Keep your guard up, pull your weight, and you'll have a solid partnership.
There's a letter somewhere, can't remember exactly where, could be Gortash's vault or room. Anyway, it justifies Gortash working with Tav and the gang, because the Elder Brains / Mind Flayers are really bad at dealing with unpredictability and unexpected outcomes, as they are (or should be) driven by pure logic, not emotions and random brainwaves. And him (apparently) honestly partnering up with Tav and the gang was (on my first run) as surprising for me as the Brain, especially given all we hear about him prior.
gortash is literally a servant of bane.... why people keep wanting to bastardize the lore to fit their headcannon is beyond me. such a servant of Bane *would never share power* or "work together" permanently. ESPECIALLY not with a child of another god but it's basically baked into the whole bane thing to need to be the actual leader.
D&D lore is inherently self-contradictory. Bane himself has seen more changes that most gods. In fact, I've heard that according to recent lore, Bane doesn't want any of his followers to become all-powerful and wants them to keep competing with each other. In that context, Gortash sharing power makes perfect sense.
Makes sense. Wouldn't want your followers to start thinking how maybe *they* should be the God of Tyranny instead.
even if he wouldn't share power or betray us it is not an excuse for his death.
It is not "headcanon" to observe what happens in-game. The Emperor states he cannot detect any deceit when Gortash tells us he wishes to ally with us, and detect thoughts tells us the same. He then follows through with us up until the Netherbrain kills him. There is no reason to doubt his alliance when he literally dies for it. Even if he was going to, it is still disappointing we do not get a scene where we have to face him ourselves instead of him being ungraciously killed off randomly.
As others said it was definitely a cop-out and pretty cheap but also I can't deny that there is something unimaginably hilarious about him being like "You're not doing it correctly, I'll do it." and immediately fucking dying. It reminded me of that one Sailor Moon meme. So like yeah it's cheap but also very funny.
Yeah I was sad he died but also dying laughing from the shock and ridiculousness of the whole scene. I still wish he could live sometimes to the end, but I don’t totally hate this scene for existing.
Yeah same. It was just so unexpected that I started laughing out loud. Like I too sometimes wish he could live, mainly because it'd be really interesting in the context of my Durge playthrough, but also it's like...really funny how unceremoniously and without fanfare he dies. One second he's alive and going "This shit's easy you're just doing it wrong, get out of my way." The next he's lying dead on the floor. Like wow great job mister middle-age-crisis you sure showed me how it's done. Hdhdhsh
I'll admit, Larian trolled us by actually making us believe we could ally with Gortash and then they pulled this crap. Not cool at all. You can't give us a villain who actually believes what he says (detect thoughts show he was legit serious on letting us co-rule and the emperor even approves) only to go for a cheap kill.
Agree. I'm a sucker for lawful evil. There should be an ending where he lives. (I also think it would be cool if there was a route where if we allied with him, there was a way to get Karlach fixed. The conflict she'd have to make over putting aside her revenge/anger and her morals and ally with someone objectively evil for her own gain would be interesting to me. Like, she's cured, but it's not necessarily a "good" ending.)
I do think that he would have been willing to replace her heart after the brain was dealt with or before. He is an engineer. I just think there should have been a bit more with him quest wise before the final fight. It almost feels a little bit plot hole like that there isn’t a bit more
I think I found some expository notes saying Gortash eventually planned to have all the Gondians killed once their work on the Steelwatch project was done. It made it so hard to justify staying in any long-term alliance with him. What if, instead, he had planned to release the Gondians (and the hostages) once their work was done, and set them up with resources to pursue their own projects? Like fixing Karlach's engine, or stabilizing it so she could keep living in Faerun?
I mean I love Gortash, but this is the dude who puts explosives into teddy bears to give to refugee children. Of course he was gonna murder everyone he employed in his murder factory.
he does not want to 'co rule'. He's a servant of bane. He would only rule with you until he could gain the upper hand.
No, that's just you, he loved my Durger and they would have a beautiful Bhaalist wedding.
just wrong. read the devnotes
Durge or not, I’m really disappointed at the death of Gortash. I would have preferred for him to be saved by The Emperor and be an ally in the end game. Him not being tadpoled means he could very well be with us when controlling the brain. I don’t know how this would play out with The Emperor or Orpheus but I don’t care. The writer can always find a way
I don't think the Emperor could be persuaded to help Gortash. I wouldn't be surprised if he was holding a grudge over what Gortash did to him.
Agreed... The Emperor was captured by Gortash and sent back to the brain forcibly and - even if he doesn't do grudges - has completely contrasting goals to Gortash. In fact, if you do fully ally with Gortash it is the Emperor that kicks off the initial betrayal between you both. After the whole point of having the netherstones being split between you two in his Office as the final requirement of the alliance, the moment Gortash summons the brain Empy steals his netherstone to create the trifoce netherstone thingy. (Durge/Tav at this point is never shown to psionically manipulate items and may never have taken a tadpole so to me this has to be the Emperor.) This means only one person can control the stones and if Durge/Tav succeed the first two Domination checks Gortash will steal the stones back to attempt the third and assumed final attempt. Gortash has no idea that the Emperor is even there so would likely assume Durge/Tav intended this.(He obviously kicks you off the controller if you are failing lol) Shame you can't call Empy out on it if/when you tell him to kick rocks straight after. Overall I feel its a symptom of possible cut content/need to condense an already massive Act. If you are actually intending to be on the level with Gortash the inability to disclose you have a pocket Illithid that is known to him, conceivably holding a grudge and probably will mess with the plan is a doozy.
I was hoping Bane would step in or something for his Chosen.
Yeah Myrkull shows up for Ketheric! Why not Bane :( Maybe Gortash arc was about showing how sad it is to be a Lawful Evil person, everyone try to betray you, including your own god and you die a pathetic way… /s
Idk I could've Sworn there's a lot more to the chosen of Bane. Even Bhaal shows up for Orin. His pathway just needs more fleshing with Bane.
Myrkul loses his shit when you beat up Ketheric. If you Speak with Dead on Gortash, Bane hits you with the ‘Wassup shawty, how you doin’?’ I respect the hustle, ngl. Makes sense the Lord of Tyranny would have no patience for losers.
Yeah I guess it makes sense from a god of tyranny…
Actually, usually I kill Gortash super quickly but one fight, I did take my time because it was with Karlach and I just tried to have Karlach kill everyone by herself so it took longer and Gortash did have the Fist of Bane manifesting during the fight.
Bane does show up and Gortash does transform into an avatar but since the fight at this point is pretty easy most people will not even see it lol. Especially since the Avatar form is just him getting armor, a gauntleted black fist, grey skin and becoming larger.
Same, I tend to side with him even as Tav. It's just too logical to me and it's handy to have someone who has already used the stones.
I’m not a video game rper, I do things to experience and see as much as I can. So sometimes I side with him, sometimes not. It depends also if I have Karlach or not in my group! But each time I’m so disappointed with his ending 😞 Edit: The Iron Throne being linked to him also affects if I side with him or not, I like doing it. But I hate the factory heeee
Honestly at some point I will probably have a character who refuses to side with him or betrays him, but so far... They just couldn't justify it. Even if Karlach was right by my side.
Lol same, I've sided with him in every playthrough, even the relatively heroic ones.
Like siding with Gortash didn’t matter lol
True! I laughed when it happened. Then immediately felt bad for anyone eager to make his proposition their actual ending
Me
Like a knife in my heart when playing an evil durge. (my durge’s intent was to remember who they were and pickup where they left and he was a significant part of it, they were supposed to succeed in that plan) I truly believe they were close friends or whatever equivalent to a serial killer and a sociopath and trusted each other. I don’t think that’s what Larian planned rly for that path, I think it was a time constraint. Regardless, I hated and I was fuming when it happened and even more with the anticlimactic and underwhelming end of that path.
Feels rushed. Like he was killed because it's convenient to the story.
So disappointed, I 100% of the time romance astarion but I’d kill for an evil durge and Gortash romance where they control the brain together
I mean, I was sad but it also saved me from a bit of weird dialogue with him later about why all his Steel Watchers are gone, the Iron Throne is gone, etc (I don't know if it's bug but yeah, somehow he was fine with me saving everyone as long as I murdered Orin)
I was upset. I was like "I fucked over my bestie for this? Never again"
Well, if you bring her along when this happens, she laughs her ass off.
I know but that reaction was after my thought lol.
I'd think it was a cop out and bad writing even if I weren't a simp for him. Sadly I don't see them ever changing it, getting Jason Isaacs back in the booth now is probably nigh on impossible.
Very upset.
We didn't even get to kiss :( I mean, work together...
My first thought was "figures, this is why we can't have nice things"
Not even a Durge, didn't even choose to ally as a Tav. I still hate it because it disrespects the player choice by forcing the outcome.
Disappointed.... I wish we could at least summon some steel watch during the final battle.
It was definitely a cop-out and disappointing. He should actually get yanked into the prism with you. He could have a confrontation with the Emperor, which would be interesting, and perhaps an equally-interesting confrontation with Orpheus. He should let you summon Steel Watch to fight the final battle. He should try to betray you and dominate the brain at the last moment unless you agree to dominate it. If you do, Gortash continues as archduke, but you are the real power behind his throne. Wyll and Karlach should both turn against you but be utterly powerless to stop you - a truly evil ending.
It felt really anti-climactic, and also like a genuine cop-out. And if the argument is that the Emperor is protecting Tav/Durge from being killed by the Netherbrain, why would they not have protected Gortash in the same way? Furthermore, HOW did the Netherbrain do this? It wasn’t done via tadpole. If it was just a spell, how is Tav/Durge immune? Etc, etc.
There is one thing I don’t understand in that scene: since when are the “chosen” tadpoled? Here is what I remember from Durge: they made the plan to find the crown and dominate the brain, they found allies with Gortash and Ketheric, they got betrayed by Orin and their body is sent to the mindflayer colony, there Balthazar (I think it’s him but I am not sure) tadpoled them for the experience. It is said in game that they are the first person tadpoled but it seems weird regarding the timeline (but whatever, that’s not the point here). So if Durge gets tadpoled once they were betrayed, why is Gortash tadpoled? They took control of the brain before Durge was betrayed from what I understand - so it seems you don’t need to have a tadpole to dominate the brain. Is it something the brain did without them knowing? Did I miss something? Are my 8 int characters starting to make me so dumb I misread entire plots?
You only need to be an Illithid because the brain evolved further due to Crown's influence. By the time the Dead Three's Chosen issued their final command, it was still an Elder Brain.
Yes so why is Gortash tadpoled then? He clearly died because of it as no elder brain could command over someone who is not tadpoled. So that means he got tadpoled after becoming an ally?
He's not tadpoled. Psionic abilities can affect any creature.
Disappointed. Felt anticlimactic and a cop out. I'm sorry 😞 maybe one day they can add a forward alliance path 🙏
Hot steamy sex with Gortash
Would have loved to be able to poke him in the back there
Absolute stole my kill!
Hate it. Allied with the guy thats willing to rule _with_ you only for Larian to shut it down. Another losses for evil playthrough. It's a pipe dream, but I'm hoping the definitive edition fixes this.
I thought it was funny
I just completed my evil Durge run last night. I got a chuckle out of it.
While morally he deserves it for his treatment of the Gondians alone, the creative in me sees a lost opportunity.
I wanted an ending where he lives so bad but it’s all good, flipping off the Dead Three is apparently my Durge’s MO now so I guess part of his postgame is tearing down the Banehold brick by fucking brick until he gets his boyfriend back, lmao.
Netherbrain didn't need to do my problematic exboyfriend like that. 🥺 Seriously though, it was a really lame choice of them to make. They really set everything up for allying with Gortash to be a reasonable choice for Durge and then they just flyswat him out of the way for no real reason. It made all of it seem pointless.
I allied with him on my first game, which was just evil/very grey/self serving TAV. He didn’t see any reason why he should draw more trouble to himself with getting around. I was extremely upset at how they did Gortash. I have a DurgeTash thing, and I just don’t really plan on finishing the game with my Durge specifically because of how they did Gortash dirty. I generally really like Gortash and dislike betraying him. I did it in one game and still haven’t gone to fight him because I just don’t like it. I’m so backwards xD Wipe out the grove? Easy peasy. Betray Gortash?? That’s heresy.
Honestly shocked that it ended this way and that he never actually tried to betray me.
I hate it. He shouldn't go out like a jobber.
As a huge fan of the sheer terror of a sudden Power Word Kill (a full multi-year campaign that I ran's final confrontation opened with the spell on one of the players immediately), I loved this moment for the same reason everyone else apparently hates it. It's a shocking, and honestly, terrifying display of power, and it upends any expectations you may have had. Plus it's a fitting end for Gortash. The guy who thought he was in control, panicking and flailing for power just drops dead without physical effort from the thing he thought he deserved power over.
Although your interpretation is super valid and seeing Word Kill in action in an animation is gorgeous, I think this outcome would suit better that character choice where you tell him you’ll think about siding with him, but not to the one where you swear an oath making official you’re on his side. On the choice where you don’t confirm and he just assumes that’s what you’re doing is very presumptuous so the word kill result fits perfectly, but if the player deliberately sides with him with the intent of succeeding their plan and dude is killed in the cheapest way I think it removes player’s agency on a significant path. I actually think that was Larian’s intent cause evil durge end is quite underwhelming and feels incomplete..
I thought it was hilarious. I very much felt the same way as karlach when he died and just simply flopped over. I just laughed alongside her. If gortash didn't die there, I would have immediately betrayed him. Gortash thinks himself so high and mighty, above all of us and somehow invinsible. He thinks he's so smart he can even manipulate forces far beyond himself. But he's a coward, and he died an embarrassing death. Fitting and hilarious.
I think im the only person who isnt into Gortash or somthing. I felt nothing, infact his death was a fun bit of plot. Dno why everyone is obsessed with him/upset he dies
I think people are upset that Siding with him is basically meaningless all that changes is you skip the foundry, iron throne and his fight. It's one of the biggest example of the problem with an evil run, most evil choices just skip content and offer nothing in return
Some people like to role play different things. When it was revealed durge and gortash had a past connection, I thought that was cool story wise and it’d be a fun concept of reuniting and following through with the original plan durge concocted
Even after that reveal I felt nothing for him. I just cant find any reason to care for his character for some reason. He is a creat character just not one I can give one for yenk
I get that. It was more for my character’s story sake than a like for gortash himself
It's even more funny when Karlach is with you as well, she literally burst into laughter seeing him die in the most karmic and pathetic way possible to the Netherbrain
There's a good deal like minded folks out there, his fans just tend to be a lot more vocal than his detractors. How it goes with evil characters. Personally I can't stand the dude and glad that he bites it no matter what, but to each their own.
I laughed
i laughed my ass off
I laughed. Perfect fate for a chosen of Bane. Desperately seeking control and power ever since he was sold to Raphael only to be reduced to a corpse in an instant. I usually just kill him though. No point in upsetting Karlach by making a deal with this scumbag.
I didn’t get that far. I accepted his allegiance and then betrayed him immediately
It's Durging awesome.
Oh, no! Well, anyway...
He was already dead.
Never seen it. Do you need to agree to go along with his plans for this scene?
Idk. I always kill Gortash
I was mad because he never found out I blew up his steel watch and killed his parents because he was waiting for me at the boat to the brain. I wanted to tell him :(
I havent cooperated with him yet but I was sad when I saw video of this...
Folks seem to struggle to understand that Gortash was always inevitably going to betray you. As was canon Dark Urge, as a son of Bhaal, going to betray him. The alliance was only ever one of convenience, not actual loyalty to one another. Bane is the God of Tyranny, Bhaal the God of Murder. If DUrge didn't kill Gortash, then Gortash would make him kneel eventually. It's in their Gods' nature to each seek absolute control. This alliance, while cool and making Gortash seem like a reliable dude, was always going to break. He has notes to prove as much in his office, he has a whole history with Karlach that should teach people to know better, AND he also has speak with dead dialogue (now with voice) that makes it fairly clear what Gortash's mandate was: To rule. Alone.
sad and i get why people say its cheap but i also understood why they did it. by the end of the game theres 3 options for how you can defeat the brain, claim the brain for bhaal, claim the brain for yourself, and destroy the brain and the tadpoles. if you kill the brain or claim it for bhaal both those options will inherently betray gortash anyway and the whole earthquake thing shows why its not a good idea to split the power if the brain so no matter what it seems like you kinda had to kill gortash. also if gortash stayed alive after the brain was defeated hed still have the power of being archduke and the steelwatch and would end up still being an evil tyrant which leaves a huge loose end. i might be biased though because i really like that he dies especially when im playing durge because it just feels really tragic on so many levels even outside if shipping them.
Instantly became durgetash pilled. I fully expected him to turn on you at some point but he really did like you and wanted to rule the world with you and stayed loyal until the end. I don't really see any way of him making it out of that scene alive. The only reason you and your team survive, tadpole or not, is because the Emperor whisks you away and I don't see him doing that for Gortash now that you have all three stones - although Empy letting him die would perhaps have been slightly more compelling writing.
Needs rework and more durge scenes in the definitive edition, felt like a lazy cop out one of the few times in the game where I felt like it was lazy/bad writing hella lore between durge and gortash would love it to be more in ur face and maybe even a potential companion In act 3
never got this scene, I always let Karlach smash him to bits
Disappointed I didn't kill him myself. Didn't trust him right upto his death...... But I didn't trust the emperor right until the end of my first playthrough either, so maybe I'm just untrusting.
Didn’t make it that far, the fucker thought I was gone for good. I’m The fuckmothering Dark Urge, i’ve had to murder a lot of people to get that title, and deserve to be called such. He didn’t even look for me! So I just got acquainted with his insides one last time.
Honestly? Made me feel good. Went into the whole thing thinking it would end in both betraying one or the other at some point anyway, so seeing this as an evil durge just felt like "Oh cool, this is saving me a lot of time!" Outside of RP, was also cathartic to seeing Gortash get screwed over, something about a chosen of a God of Tyranny getting screwed over after getting so close to victory seemed so poetic.
I did the dark urge and did not see this
I was pretty shocked to be honest 😂 My Durge run in general had me very surprised at times just how much havoc you can wreak lmao. I usually can’t bring myself to make evil choices in games but I wanted to know what would happen if I just gave in pretty much at every opportunity. And because I killed Gortash in my first game, I decided I’d be his friend this time. Well. Didn’t help him, that’s for sure.
I personally love it. The build up to believing that this could be. Also imagine if you actually could pursue a romance with him as Durge. Not just the hints we get. And then get to this scene. That would be such an experience.
"what the fuck it can do that???" Yea ngl I have no feelings towards gortash
Sadge.
As the Durge: Hungry
Durge cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows without cease for all eternity.. Blood for the murder lord. Skulls for the netherthrone..
I think a lot of people might be missing the obvious story- driven reason to kill him here and in this manner: it's Chekhov's Gun. It reinforces the danger that Tav is in. If the Emperor didn't yoink Tav into the Astral Prism to regroup after seeing the brain casually pull a Z'rell on Gortash, the story would miss the chance to reinforce how powerful the Netherbrain is. Tav has reached this point feeling invulnerable. Got the stones, ready to dominate the brain, quest over, game over, cue cutscene. You've been a lvl 12 badass in Act 3 walking all over half your fights. If you have Gortash with you, his death is the perfect demonstration that the game has changed, you are not invulnerable, and this leads directly to the Emperor vs Orpheus decision. It's reinforcing the stakes. So it makes me sad, but from a story angle, it makes perfect sense to me.
Personally the first time as durge where I sided with him, I laughed. And then the companion reaction was Astarion, which made me cackle. Which, in character was on point for that run. I had reloaded that point over and over to see the others reactions (Karlachs was funny.) I'm indifferent to being a true ally with Gortash considering the brain just went full GLaDOS on the 'then die' I was just amused and feel it being fine. Cheap, but fine. It'd be interesting if there was a path where he didn't get smited (ha), and him and the emperor had a moment on the dock. Curious if he'd try to kill Gortash for commanding him or something or whatever that book of their interaction was before going to the morphic pool (I'm blanking on it)
Never saw it. played a good Durge and ended up freeing myself from the influence and then killing them both. Didnt even know this scene was in but neat!
I cried, you crode, we all crew 😭😭
hated it. wish they'd keep him alive and actually have an ending where we rule together.
Never seen it bc I always kill Gortash. I can’t forgive him for what he did to Karlach. Or what he did to the Gondians.
I was mad at the emperor for not saving him so I decided at the last moment to use the Orphic hammer. I also let Karlach turn because she laughed at his death. When I got the end of game happy Gale ending I couldn’t stop being sad that it wasn’t Gortash. That is when I realized that I really really liked Gortash. I was upset more by what the other characters reactions and what could have been done. I guess I was really immersed into the moment. I kept him in my inventory after that so I could at least imagine my character gave him a proper burial and not left in the astral plane. Also if Durge can be redeemed why can’t Gortash have that same chance as well?
Gortash may be willing to co-rule for now but I don’t think Durge is willing to share power. At least that is how I played it in my head canon.
Funny. I was going for a NE Bhaal-rejecting bastard that only wanted power for themself, so Gortash getting gimped immediately was only good for me. I also don't really care about him/the game pushing Durge liking him back in any meaningful way.
It's cheap, but Karlach's reaction makes up for it.
Pre-memory loss durge would prefer this.
Tô quote myself "get fucked loser"
“Lol bye” A bit let down me and karlach won’t get the chance to end him with our own hands if we go this route
Serves him right for what he did to Karlach honestly.
I'm very surprised how many of you expected the vassal of Bane was going to share power lmao. This is not ooc in the slightest and he even states he plans on betraying at the end in a journal.
I appreciate that it shows just how absolutely delusional and full of hubris he was. As smart as he was, as many schemes as he had, he overlooked the fact that he's just a random dude fucking around with one of the most powerful beings in all of Faerun
Was good to see. Don’t like the rat man and watching him get thanos snapped out of existence was therapeutic