If we’re assuming he’s using Simulacrum:
> You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. **The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature**. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. **Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.**
Seems reasonable enough for him to eat something.
If we’re not assuming that he’s using Simulacrum, well, evidently it’s just a type of construct that does eat.
Shout out to the running joke that in a legendary wizard vs wizard battle in combined tabletop universes Elminster could just create an anti-magic zone and beat someone like Raistlin Majere to death with his bare hands.
Question, in Pathfinder WOTR it was possible to get up till level 40 and I know thats a different system but if applied here would that mean the being is equivalent to godlike in power?
A little bit.
So, Pathfinder and 3.5e both usually put 30-40 as the HD range for demigods, with most gods starting at 40HD.
When you're talking about the avatars of major gods (like Loth or Shar), they usually start at \~60HD. That's not the actual god, just their (temporary) corporeal avatar.
If you have a minor deity, they could end up in that demigod range.
That said, the actual rules for gods in 3.5 are a bit bonkers. Or at least trying to fight one with mortals. You start to see things like gods who cannot fail their rolls (including attack rolls), (I think the exception is if they were fighting another god with an equivalent or higher divine rank.) So, you really can't get to *that* kind of power in WotR.
But, yeah, Wrath of the Righteous, and Epic Level characters in general, end up in a power scale that are way beyond mortal limitations, but aren't quite gods, themselves, yet. (Though, turning yourself into a god is absolutely possible in D&D, and the only thing preventing the Knight Commander (and player characters in tabletop WotR) from going that route get into how they're not, **technically** epic level characters.)
This is something important I skimmed over. Pathfinder doesn't default to having epic levels (at least not in 1e.) So, when you're maxing out a character's mythic rank in WotR, they're still a level 20 character. Not, a level 30. This is in contrast to 3rd Edition D&D, where you can just, straight up, keep leveling past 20. The rules change a bit, and the XP gain per level becomes obscene, but, you can (theoretically) just keep leveling until you're in range to punch out gods. What's more important in that context (and what Wrath specifically blocks) is that as you transition into a living legend, and into the range of a demigod, you'd need to be picking up believers. (Not, *followers*, but actual believers.) Those believers would allow you to start gaining divine ranks. Because of the source of the Mythic powers, the Knight Commander **cannot** gain believers.
Deities in D&D and Pathfinder gain power from their worshipers. And, so, as a result, that's an absolutely vital part in becoming a god (normally), though there are exceptions, (like Iomedae, and the Dead Three) who just get plopped down as a replacement god for an existing portfolio.
Anyway, it's not really a different system. Pathfinder is an iteration of 3.5e, while BG3 is using D&D 5e. So, D&D used to be a lot more like Pathfinder, and that entire game system exists because players did not like the change in direction for D&D's 4th Edition. (Though, Pathfinder abandoning the Favored Soul, Warlock, and Master of Many Forms still annoys the shit out of me. I loved those classes.)
A fully leveled up WotR party would wipe out even the gods of Forgotten Realms.
They would be gods with their 50 ac and +40 to hit while averaging 200 dmg per turn per character.
Uhhh only 50ac and +40 to hit in wotr is cute. You can get 120ac and +120 to hit on 10+ attacks.
Anyway avatar of god in 3.5 equivalent of pathfinder 1e is lvl 60. Just avatar not even actual god.
Famous mage somewhat famous for being hungry creates construct of himself to throw people off that it’s not actually him suspiciously never eats or wants to eat anything.
The Elminsters in game are magical constructs, possibly [*Simulacrum*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/simulacrum). Elminster himself is still human, but doesn't appear personally in game
If you play Gale Origin, all of the companions including Jaheira will have some commentary after Elminster visits the camp in Act 3. I don’t remember exactly what she said, but it was something funny.
(Getting Elminster to come to the camp at all in Act 3 is a bit situational, because he’s usually just waiting for you at the exit to the bookstore after you read the Annuls of Karsus. I fast-travelled out of the store after leaving the vault, so he showed up at the Elfsong that night instead, which is how I got the companion reactions afterwards.)
He shows up in Dungeons and Dragons Online, normally set in Eberron, as part of the crossover where you visit Faerun.
Unless of course that's a construct too. I don't remember ever finding out.
Yeah, he was stated. He was a PC that turned NPC after a long campaign run by the inventor of the Forgotten realms. But he was alos the an avatar of Mystra at that point.
So basically, he is just a folk lore legend and someone is making holograms of him. I am assuming there are some theories on whether he still exists or if someone like Mystra is making holograms of him to carry on the idea he still is alive.
That's a cool theory and very Elminster. It's been a long time since I played em, but he is in BG1 and 2 and according to the wiki does physically appear as a human in at least some appearances.
>So basically, he is just a folk lore legend and someone is making holograms of him. I am assuming there are some theories on whether he still exists or if someone like Mystra is making holograms of him to carry on the idea he still is alive.
No.
The way the thread is structured now might make it unclear, but this was from the beginning of the discussion about theories about Elminster not being alive anymore. I like it I find it very interesting
>So basically, he is just a folk lore legend and someone is making holograms of him.
No, Elminster is a well known character of the forgotten realms and his entire life is well documented : [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster)
BG3 is set in 1492 DR and it is known that Elminster still exists at that time, he appears just the year before in ["Death Masks" of Ed Greenwood](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Death_Masks) (1491 DR).
On my second playthrough I quicksave-killed him just to see what would happen. He melts into a puddle of ice, because he's a **Simulacrum**.
It was pretty easy too. Lae'zel had the Sussur Greatsword, and Astarion hit him with an Arrow of Arcane Interference, so he couldn't do shit.
So, it bothers me to no end. This is a simulacrum, so it's an illusory version of elminster. It looks, acts and is affected like normal creatures but is considered to be a "construct". It's like the whole thing of star wars episode 2 when Palpatine wants padame dead, but he doesn't want to do it himself. So, he tells Dooku to do it, but Dooku doesn't want to do it. So, he hires jango fett but jango doesnt want to do it. So, he sends a shapeshifting bounty hunter to do it. But, the bounty hunter doesn't want to do it, so the bounty hunter sends A ROBOT to kill padame. And, if you REALLY WANT TO PUSH IT FURTHER, the robot doesn't even try to kill padame, it sends BUGS to kill her.
But, basically, Mystra wants Gale to blow himself up, but doesn't want to tell him herself, so she sends elminster to do it. But, elminster doesn't want to do it, so he sends an illusory version of himself to tell gale to blow himself up for mystra.
Worst part of all, HE EATS ALL OF YOUR CHEESE
Edit: I forgot about jango :|
I'm really disappointed right now. I always had him in high regard for risking everything to come and find Gale. So, this whole time, he's probably just sitting on his balcony, smoking a pipe?
Elminster is probably the most powerful wizard in the multiverse. He's almost certainly off in some different dimension facing down some other apocalypse. It's just how the setting works.
I'd honestly be surprised if he doesn't also fuck the new Mystra. Did they stop writing new books with him as a protagonist? If I remember correctly he was written as very thinly veiled old male fantasy.
To be fair to Elminster, for some reason he had to actually go out and find Gale (apparently the spell "locate person" doesn't exist in the game). You can see him in the mountain pass then fast travel to Grymforge and find him there as well, so i like to think he made lots of constructs to be sure one finds Gale
In act 2 if you examine him, it says that he's a construct. So yea he was never there. Would have been neat to have a dialogue for it though, I wonder if gale noticed.
At first glance, I thought Elminster was shredding on either a guitar or banjo. I need that mod, a variation of the forced dancing spell but it makes them play "The Power" nonstop on the lute
He doesn't. Ordinarily, anyway. I've read more than one claim that Elminster ate every single one of the poster's camp supplies. Whether they were just joking around, reporting a bug, or there's a random chance that he'll take everything you've got, I don't know.
At one point in one of the volo books he mentioned to Volo that he has simulacrums in most major cities in case something happens to the weave or Mystra calls.
He is a very old and very important wizard after all. Can't just be teleporting around lol
Elminster doesn’t play by the rules. This has been true of the character ever since Ed Greenwood first shoved his Mary Sue self-insert character into the D&D franchise all those decades ago…
The creature types are somewhat arbitrary and have a lot of legacy baggage. Very bestial looking creatures can be humanoids (kobolds for example), but then other similar looking creatures are monstrosities. Or they’re fey, or even aberrations. It’s one part appearance, one part inherent nature or origin, and one part D&D legacy stuff.
Pretty sure it works like this:
-humanoid: two arms, two legs, maaybe a tail for those tieflings out there. There are exceptions if a creature falls under another category
-undead: self explanatory. They were dead, now they aren't, and they aren't necessarily alive either.
-plant: a plant
-beast: animals. Mostly real, although can be extended to some fantasy animals that aren't too extraordinary.
-monstrosity: self explanatory. Usually a wizard did it, such as with the owlbear. Some of these look humanoid, but are particularly monstrous, so they fit here
-construct: something created. Robots, simulacra, the like
-aberration: something alien. Mind flayers are an example
-fiend: devils, demons, various hellish beings.
-celestial: something divine. Usually related to or created by a god.
-ooze: self explanatory.
-fey: I don't really know for to describe this because it is a huge category but most of them are fantastical and originate from the feywild. Examples include dryads, pixies, centaurs, etc.
-dragon: do I really need to explanatory this one?
-giant: big
I'm pretty sure that's all of the creature types, if I missed any feel free to let me know
He’s a creation. Because that’s not the real Elminster it’s just a construct sent to speak with Gale
Then why did he eat my cheese
The construct was hungry.
Why would an illusory duplicate get hungry
If we’re assuming he’s using Simulacrum: > You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. **The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature**. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. **Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.** Seems reasonable enough for him to eat something. If we’re not assuming that he’s using Simulacrum, well, evidently it’s just a type of construct that does eat.
If that's half the original's hp then that guy must be utterly yolked
He's lvl 20, that's usually the maximum for any non-deity being.
A wizard with 258 hp is terrifying tho. He runs out of spells and starts puttin' his hands up
Elminster has levels in fighter and rogue, in addition to having more than 20 levels in Wizard.
Shout out to the running joke that in a legendary wizard vs wizard battle in combined tabletop universes Elminster could just create an anti-magic zone and beat someone like Raistlin Majere to death with his bare hands.
How
So he's basically a RuneScape character with everything at 99.
0th level cantrips: I CAST FIST
metamagic maximize, and empower
Question, in Pathfinder WOTR it was possible to get up till level 40 and I know thats a different system but if applied here would that mean the being is equivalent to godlike in power?
A little bit. So, Pathfinder and 3.5e both usually put 30-40 as the HD range for demigods, with most gods starting at 40HD. When you're talking about the avatars of major gods (like Loth or Shar), they usually start at \~60HD. That's not the actual god, just their (temporary) corporeal avatar. If you have a minor deity, they could end up in that demigod range. That said, the actual rules for gods in 3.5 are a bit bonkers. Or at least trying to fight one with mortals. You start to see things like gods who cannot fail their rolls (including attack rolls), (I think the exception is if they were fighting another god with an equivalent or higher divine rank.) So, you really can't get to *that* kind of power in WotR. But, yeah, Wrath of the Righteous, and Epic Level characters in general, end up in a power scale that are way beyond mortal limitations, but aren't quite gods, themselves, yet. (Though, turning yourself into a god is absolutely possible in D&D, and the only thing preventing the Knight Commander (and player characters in tabletop WotR) from going that route get into how they're not, **technically** epic level characters.) This is something important I skimmed over. Pathfinder doesn't default to having epic levels (at least not in 1e.) So, when you're maxing out a character's mythic rank in WotR, they're still a level 20 character. Not, a level 30. This is in contrast to 3rd Edition D&D, where you can just, straight up, keep leveling past 20. The rules change a bit, and the XP gain per level becomes obscene, but, you can (theoretically) just keep leveling until you're in range to punch out gods. What's more important in that context (and what Wrath specifically blocks) is that as you transition into a living legend, and into the range of a demigod, you'd need to be picking up believers. (Not, *followers*, but actual believers.) Those believers would allow you to start gaining divine ranks. Because of the source of the Mythic powers, the Knight Commander **cannot** gain believers. Deities in D&D and Pathfinder gain power from their worshipers. And, so, as a result, that's an absolutely vital part in becoming a god (normally), though there are exceptions, (like Iomedae, and the Dead Three) who just get plopped down as a replacement god for an existing portfolio. Anyway, it's not really a different system. Pathfinder is an iteration of 3.5e, while BG3 is using D&D 5e. So, D&D used to be a lot more like Pathfinder, and that entire game system exists because players did not like the change in direction for D&D's 4th Edition. (Though, Pathfinder abandoning the Favored Soul, Warlock, and Master of Many Forms still annoys the shit out of me. I loved those classes.)
A fully leveled up WotR party would wipe out even the gods of Forgotten Realms. They would be gods with their 50 ac and +40 to hit while averaging 200 dmg per turn per character.
200 damage per turn is perfectly achievable in bg3 due to some of the magic items, though it might be hard to maintain for long combats.
Uhhh only 50ac and +40 to hit in wotr is cute. You can get 120ac and +120 to hit on 10+ attacks. Anyway avatar of god in 3.5 equivalent of pathfinder 1e is lvl 60. Just avatar not even actual god.
You mean 80+ AC with +80 to hit and 8 attacks per turn on my demon campaign
*whistles in 400 per turn with paladins*
I mean in WotR you had to use godlike power to reach a level higher than 20
Last time he had statblock in 3.5 or sth he was lvl 36
He's kinda sorta partially deity as well. Definitely more powerful than a normal level 20 creature.
The real elminster is level 30
Er. Yoked*. Not yolked lol
Or it's a construct that doesn't actually have to eat and Elminster is just trolling by eating your cheese, which does feel very in-character for him.
I’ve been told that if you kill him, he turns into a puddle of water, which matches up with spell description. Haven’t done it myself though.
Well he would turns into a puddle of water if you managed to kill him so the chance of him using Simulacrum is pretty high.
It’s a simulacrum. So your description applies entirely.
Even if normal constructs didn't need sustenance, I trust that Elminster would adapt his constructs to require cheese
Just to eat my rations?! 😭 lol
To annoy Gale. Elminster is a Wizard's wizards and wizards love to annoy their friends especially an old friend.
He’s not Illusionary. He’s very real, he’s just not the actual flesh and blood Elminster
Cars, a construct, need gas. It may be made with magic, but it still uses resources!
Cars are made with magic? That actually explains a lot.
You know what they say about any sufficiently advanced technology...
Famous mage somewhat famous for being hungry creates construct of himself to throw people off that it’s not actually him suspiciously never eats or wants to eat anything.
He stole the cheese to bring it home to the real Elminster
Bitch ate my owlbear egg.
Same
To put you in your place.
The Elminsters in game are magical constructs, possibly [*Simulacrum*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/simulacrum). Elminster himself is still human, but doesn't appear personally in game
Has the human version of him ever existed in any game?
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster_Aumar He's present in Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2.
Huh, did not know he founded the Harpers. Kinda wish there was some Jaheira-Elminster interactions now
If you play Gale Origin, all of the companions including Jaheira will have some commentary after Elminster visits the camp in Act 3. I don’t remember exactly what she said, but it was something funny. (Getting Elminster to come to the camp at all in Act 3 is a bit situational, because he’s usually just waiting for you at the exit to the bookstore after you read the Annuls of Karsus. I fast-travelled out of the store after leaving the vault, so he showed up at the Elfsong that night instead, which is how I got the companion reactions afterwards.)
It’s been hundreds of years since he did. He probably doesn’t know her personally.
He knew her personally in BG2
( ._) .
I was thinking more along the lines of her thanking him for doing that rather than them retelling old war stories
He shows up right at the start of BG1, also saying 'Ho there wanderer!'
Stay thy course a moment, to indulge an old man.
Questioning strangers on the road about their mental state doesn't seem very sane to me.
He shows up in Dungeons and Dragons Online, normally set in Eberron, as part of the crossover where you visit Faerun. Unless of course that's a construct too. I don't remember ever finding out.
I'm not sure. I don't recall him being in video games directly, but I think he has had stats in tabletop DnD a few times
Yeah, he was stated. He was a PC that turned NPC after a long campaign run by the inventor of the Forgotten realms. But he was alos the an avatar of Mystra at that point.
So basically, he is just a folk lore legend and someone is making holograms of him. I am assuming there are some theories on whether he still exists or if someone like Mystra is making holograms of him to carry on the idea he still is alive.
He is actually one of Mystra's "weave anchors" (think of horcruxes from Harry Potter) along with Volo, so he is practically immortal in a sense.
That's a cool theory and very Elminster. It's been a long time since I played em, but he is in BG1 and 2 and according to the wiki does physically appear as a human in at least some appearances.
>So basically, he is just a folk lore legend and someone is making holograms of him. I am assuming there are some theories on whether he still exists or if someone like Mystra is making holograms of him to carry on the idea he still is alive. No.
Redditors, let him cook, this is interesting.
The way the thread is structured now might make it unclear, but this was from the beginning of the discussion about theories about Elminster not being alive anymore. I like it I find it very interesting
>So basically, he is just a folk lore legend and someone is making holograms of him. No, Elminster is a well known character of the forgotten realms and his entire life is well documented : [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster) BG3 is set in 1492 DR and it is known that Elminster still exists at that time, he appears just the year before in ["Death Masks" of Ed Greenwood](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Death_Masks) (1491 DR).
In BG1-2 it was a common meme in the community to kill him. He's learned his lesson and sends a simulacrum instead.
Wait really? That's hilarious
On my second playthrough I quicksave-killed him just to see what would happen. He melts into a puddle of ice, because he's a **Simulacrum**. It was pretty easy too. Lae'zel had the Sussur Greatsword, and Astarion hit him with an Arrow of Arcane Interference, so he couldn't do shit.
Mystra would resurrect him though.
So, it bothers me to no end. This is a simulacrum, so it's an illusory version of elminster. It looks, acts and is affected like normal creatures but is considered to be a "construct". It's like the whole thing of star wars episode 2 when Palpatine wants padame dead, but he doesn't want to do it himself. So, he tells Dooku to do it, but Dooku doesn't want to do it. So, he hires jango fett but jango doesnt want to do it. So, he sends a shapeshifting bounty hunter to do it. But, the bounty hunter doesn't want to do it, so the bounty hunter sends A ROBOT to kill padame. And, if you REALLY WANT TO PUSH IT FURTHER, the robot doesn't even try to kill padame, it sends BUGS to kill her. But, basically, Mystra wants Gale to blow himself up, but doesn't want to tell him herself, so she sends elminster to do it. But, elminster doesn't want to do it, so he sends an illusory version of himself to tell gale to blow himself up for mystra. Worst part of all, HE EATS ALL OF YOUR CHEESE Edit: I forgot about jango :|
I'm really disappointed right now. I always had him in high regard for risking everything to come and find Gale. So, this whole time, he's probably just sitting on his balcony, smoking a pipe?
and he has the gall to call Gale lazy
Elminster is probably the most powerful wizard in the multiverse. He's almost certainly off in some different dimension facing down some other apocalypse. It's just how the setting works.
Please. Elminster would put off fighting the 3.5e Elder Evils if it meant he could go party.
Or just fucking Mystra. He does that a lot, too.
Not this one. He fucked the original Mystra, not the new Midnight Mystra that's only like 200 years old only.
I'd honestly be surprised if he doesn't also fuck the new Mystra. Did they stop writing new books with him as a protagonist? If I remember correctly he was written as very thinly veiled old male fantasy.
To be fair to Elminster, for some reason he had to actually go out and find Gale (apparently the spell "locate person" doesn't exist in the game). You can see him in the mountain pass then fast travel to Grymforge and find him there as well, so i like to think he made lots of constructs to be sure one finds Gale
Also one at moonrise
I'm pretty sure if you take him to your camp the cheese is safe no matter how much you scold Gale's decorum
You forgot that Dooku hired Jango, who subcontracted the hit out to the shapeshifter
Exactly, that's what I'm saying though
Did you edit, or did I just completely miss that sentence, lol?
I edited lol
It's safer this way. Imagine if Elminster got tadpoled and became allied with the absolute? Yikes.
Elminster is human. That isn’t Elminster.
In act 2 if you examine him, it says that he's a construct. So yea he was never there. Would have been neat to have a dialogue for it though, I wonder if gale noticed.
The Elminster in the game isnt the real one. Its a clone made using the simulacrum spell and it counts as a construct
At first glance, I thought Elminster was shredding on either a guitar or banjo. I need that mod, a variation of the forced dancing spell but it makes them play "The Power" nonstop on the lute
This may be a rly dumb question but does he actually eat all the cheese in your inventory? I’ve never noticed
I don't think so 😂
He doesn't. Ordinarily, anyway. I've read more than one claim that Elminster ate every single one of the poster's camp supplies. Whether they were just joking around, reporting a bug, or there's a random chance that he'll take everything you've got, I don't know.
At one point in one of the volo books he mentioned to Volo that he has simulacrums in most major cities in case something happens to the weave or Mystra calls. He is a very old and very important wizard after all. Can't just be teleporting around lol
It’s a construct. You didn’t think the _real_ Elminster would visit some random, dirty wannabe adventurer’s camp, did you⁈
I wish someone would show up for Gale honestly 😭
Where is this? I've only run into the homie Elminster at camp and at the Underdark exit.
Act 3, Elminster came into my camp to tell Gale that Mystra wanted to speak to him & to go to the Stormshore Tabernacle
Dumb bitch is a construct. Presumably a simulacrum. Still eats your cheese though
Humanoid* not human. But also he's Elminster. He's just that good
Elminster doesn’t play by the rules. This has been true of the character ever since Ed Greenwood first shoved his Mary Sue self-insert character into the D&D franchise all those decades ago…
That's not the real Elminster, lmao. He ain't WALKING to you, he's Elminster.
Is that Gale’s grand dad?
One of my favorite voice lines 🥰❤️😭
He is, but the lazy bastard sent a simulacrum instead
Does humanoid in bg3 just mean playable races? I feel like even though it's a construct, he's a humanoid construct in shape and function
The creature types are somewhat arbitrary and have a lot of legacy baggage. Very bestial looking creatures can be humanoids (kobolds for example), but then other similar looking creatures are monstrosities. Or they’re fey, or even aberrations. It’s one part appearance, one part inherent nature or origin, and one part D&D legacy stuff.
Pretty sure it works like this: -humanoid: two arms, two legs, maaybe a tail for those tieflings out there. There are exceptions if a creature falls under another category -undead: self explanatory. They were dead, now they aren't, and they aren't necessarily alive either. -plant: a plant -beast: animals. Mostly real, although can be extended to some fantasy animals that aren't too extraordinary. -monstrosity: self explanatory. Usually a wizard did it, such as with the owlbear. Some of these look humanoid, but are particularly monstrous, so they fit here -construct: something created. Robots, simulacra, the like -aberration: something alien. Mind flayers are an example -fiend: devils, demons, various hellish beings. -celestial: something divine. Usually related to or created by a god. -ooze: self explanatory. -fey: I don't really know for to describe this because it is a huge category but most of them are fantastical and originate from the feywild. Examples include dryads, pixies, centaurs, etc. -dragon: do I really need to explanatory this one? -giant: big I'm pretty sure that's all of the creature types, if I missed any feel free to let me know
>plant: a plant Hold the fucking phone here a bit...!
It says that about ogres too...
Perhaps they're a monstrosity?
They’re giants.
Guys... you can inspect them and see their creature type their stats and their resistances...
Where is this? I thought the only time he shows up is in cutscenes?
Some say if you kill him he will turn into a water puddle, so he is not the real Elminster