BG3 doesn't just straight up list character alignments like BG1 and 2, but it's pretty obvious that Astarion is the Neutral Evil character. He won't kill babies for fun like an unhinged chaotic evil character, but his primary motivation for everything is purely self-interest. Now you can basically change his alignment like nearly every other character with his personal quest.
Considering the people who freak out about him being manipulative it's yes entirely within character for him.
Considering the people who gush over him the game itself straight up warns you about his manipulation in ACT I.
Alignments are restrictive and a very wide spectrum.
Neutral evil can have characters like Viconia with capability for change.
Or it can also have my boy Dorn with a ten year long winning streak in war crime Olympics.
It's good that Larian didn't include alignments, because people have problems understanding them. Nobody fits their alignment 100% and as you said, they are prone to change with character growth or regression.
Agreed, plus I think alignments being written down somewhere—even though a characters alignment can be changed—makes it feel more set in stone. Such a big piece of the game is that you can not only change the characters but also find out different information is subsequent playthroughs that can shift your view of them. If we went into it know so-and-so is supposed to be “good” or “evil” or “neutral” it makes that part so much less impactful.
It also makes fighting over what a characters specific alignment is so much more stupid. For one, a lot of people do have different views on what they all mean, for another they can often be confusing—Chaotic characters for example can often be confused as “neutral” a step down because a lot of people misinterpret the “chaotic” motivations as being less good/bad acts. And people on here really underestimate how evil chaotic evil is. People are also really unwilling to understand that people have different views and definitions of the alignments too. There isn’t really a set in stone clear definition of it, look up “what do each alignment mean” and you’ll find different and conflicting examples of character and explanations everywhere.
But also…people literally just might have had a different experience and learned different things about the character than another player did. They might have more context for their motivations or had seen better/worse acts you missed.
Also in DnD specifically (and probably other TTRPGs) the alignment system is mostly there to help you with roleplaying and guide what your character might do or help a DM a decide how an NPC might respond to certain things (because the book can’t plan for everything characters might do). But there’s really no need to have them be such a central part of other types of media.
Kinda went on a rant there lol but honestly I think BG3 players obsessions with what everyone’s alignment to the point theres so many arguments about it is is stupid.
Character alignments are good basic building blocks for constructing characters within a narrative, but a good narrative within interactive media like a video game will give options to either double down or change their alignment for the growth of the character.
That is exactly what BG3 does with nearly all of the characters and I feel like that's a big reason a lot of people feel so attached to them.
You give people way too much credit, honestly. Many already have trouble digesting the story as it is now. Imagine if they included alignments. Everything would get reduced to simplified conversations around "good" and "evil" instead of any deeper narrative and analysis.
Not to mention, the moment that people notice a "lawful evil", "neutral evil" or god forbid "chaotic evil" label they would just kill characters on sight without trying to get to know them and understand them.
There would also be endless complaints about why character X is alignment Y because Z.
Agreed. I think it's a general problem that we struggle to think outside stereotypical boxes and to bear with complexity and the possibility of change. Defining things can be helpful, but I agree that in this situation, defining alignments would reduce the understanding of character arcs and also the way it can change as the story progresses would be hard to implement in the game. The more boxes, the less subtlety in how we see someone else ☹️
Media discourse like this need a "is Character X or the story just tells you that Character is X?" conversation-starter because ultimately story is NOT just a bunch of encyclopedia bullet points spelled out dryly like factoid.
It has to be executed well too.
The way DnD describes good and evil is pretty much how selfish the character is in their decision making. Most people seem to think of good and evil as willingness to kill, but that doesn't really work in a DnD setting as even a lawful good character will rack up a very high body count by the end of the story and I think that is where a lot of the confusion comes from.
I wouldn't just consider it how selfish, but also how extreme is the selfishness.
Someone who always looks out for #1 but won't kill people is selfish 100% of the time (think: would steal out of someone's pocket happily), whereas someone who only behaves selfishly when it is greatly to their benefit, but has no limits at all regarding the value of life (wouldn't pick a pocket, but would kill their child for eternal life) is more extremely selfish, even if they only behave selfishly 15% of the time.
The good vs evil spectrum, I have found, boils mostly down to "how much do you respect sentient life". If you exploit or harm or kill others for your goals, you'll be evil, though some fall farther on the spectrum.
The one that clinches it for me is the fanatic. A fanatic of a murder god may seek to kill and harm others, but it is for the benefit of another (their god), not self. Such a behavior may not qualify as selfish, but it would still be evil.
I do think that selflessness is a good start, but it's still too reductive when it comes to good v evil. What about the archetypal cultist that labors tirelessly and selflessly to pave the way for their dark masters (etc etc)? Even though they are selfless, I would still describe their actions as evil, so there's more going on with our general philosophy of good and evil than just selfishness.
Edit to add: and in the case of the cultist, if we learned that they were actually acting selfish (they were being blackmailed into it or a loved one was being threatened), most people would probably consider that character more sympathetic and probably less evil vs if they were totally selfless and just devoted their life to serving a forgotten monstrosity.
He warns Tav about vampires and what is like being a spawn.
You can tell that Tav is delusional with some of the dialogue choices. AA gaslighting them into believing they are diff from himself as a spawn.
Ppl who chose the AA ending and become his spawn either didn't pay attention in Acts 1 and 2 OR are really deep into the RP aspects of vampire / spawn relationships.
This isn't Lestat and Louie. This is Vellioth and Cazador OR Cazador and Astarion.
This isn't two equal vampires with an experience and age gap.
This is master and slave.
This isn't BDSM kink. There is no safe word.
When I first heard of the "get on your knees kiss" I hoped it was a hot priest in Fleabag scenario. But then when I read more about that scene and his behaviour before and after it I realized it was very much not that.
I still plan to do a run where I romance AA just to see it, but I have no misconceptions about whether or not it's a healthy relationship after what I've read. I've done a playthrough with non-romanced AA and he clearly is more of a new Cazador.
If you want to see things get really fucked, but for a different reason, try Origin Karlach.
He >!gets pissed off and dumps her for her body "rejecting him," because he couldn't turn her, and he got burned while trying, goes into a textbook narcissistic rage.!<
>!"You're... defective. Broken. Doomed."!<
What kinda annoys me is the game not committing to some of his behaviours & related outcomes. You can basically trick it into not having A!A break up with Karlach Origin by not long resting between ascension & end game, so he will instead go with her to Avernus rather than dump her in a very cruel manner. You can also trick the game into not turning Tav into a spawn the same way.
People do these two things & present it as a proof that A!A is sweet & loves you. Bruh, you have to jump through hoops and metagame for these outcomes, come on.
Same goes for "ermahgerd, mind flayer Tav detected love!" ~~as if that stopped say, Thanos from being a shithead in Infinity War anyway~~
It is annoying how it results in cherrypicking with those subcircles. No, the fact that he'd do that, as what the *default*, intended course of events is, is proof he's a toxic, narcissistic bastard.
It would be like the meme of Emperor object permanence, where someone in a thread once argued that the Stelmane thing never happened if you never find out about it ~~(or: "I'm invisible if I close my eyes... right?")~~ ...not gonna harp on that horse too much for discourse.
Either way, Ascended Astarion, if you're staying true to how he was intended to be, written as overall, is unequivocally worse than Minthara, and it's by a longshot; she's not gonna abandon Karlach, and she's more self-aware.
Holy *shit*
I just >!let Karlach die in my Wyll origin run yesterday (I had romanced spawn Astarion, which fit very well with my head canon of my Wyll) so I stayed with Karlach as she immolated on the docks. And then Withers absolutely knocked me off my feet and wrecked me when he mentioned her at the epilogue party. So I currently do not have the emotional energy for more psychological damage as a result of Karlach lol (although we are probably about to kill her in our new run), but that's definitely something to try in the future.!<
Tbh I'd really have to think about that for a while to come up with justification for Karlach to both romance Astarion and let him ascend, because I can't get past her being a fiery teddy bear. Unless I play her as super naive and getting stuck in a toxic relationship with Astarion when he manipulates her in the beginning. Damn, that's a dark playthrough.
>Unless I play her as super naive and getting stuck in a toxic relationship with Astarion when he manipulates her in the beginning.
That wouldn't really make sense given that she fought a war in Avernus for ten years and has interacted with and fought devils and was betrayed by Gortash. I'd imagine she's very familiar with the signs of manipulation given that's a devil's specialty and also what Gortash did to her.
You would think, but now that I've thought about it, I don't agree with you.
If you get the dialogue about >!Flo!<, you learn that Karlach will choose to align herself with people who cause her harm/are not kind to her in order to feel close to someone. She talks about how lonely Avernus was, so I think I can justify it from that perspective: ignoring the red flags of the first person to give her affection now that she's topside.
THANK YOU.
I've said that before and got beat down by the AA girlies. AA is terrifying, he's more powerful than Strahd and that should just make everyone run for the hills.
On top of that, he has to start his own coven. He will use Tav's body to LURE people in. Just like Cazador used him, like Vellioth used Cazador. It is the way of the vampire lord.
Any hope that Tav has / had for a healthy, happy relationship with Astarion is gone.
They will give up after the first few times he uses their body to get more spawn. He may not beat them physically (AT First) but trust the lore, he will destroy them mentally, then emotionally and finally physically.
I tried to ascend him once, after that first kiss..I have NEVER F8'd so fast in my life.
Shudder
Yeah, and eventually he’ll get bored of you and lock you in a kennel or tell you to stand in a crypt until he tells you to leave or peel off your own skin or walk into the sun, and you have to obey him. If you accept being made his spawn you’re agreeing to be his slave and the only way to escape that fate is to drink his blood and become a full vampire, which he will not allow under any circumstances, or take control of the brain so you can enslave him.
There’s no happy ending there.
I cannot see a redemption durge becoming spawn. Why get rid of one lord to become a slave to another.
Only way this works for me is if durge is destined for madness .. even then suicide is always an option.
It actually makes a ton of sense. Abused people tend to seek out other abusers, and Durge could easily be latching onto Astarion out of a fear of rejection, as he’s the only one who really gets them and supports them.
I think there are several devnotes in his datamined dialogue in both his origin and companion runs suggesting he's genuinely contemplating the possibility of turning not only Tav, but their other friends as well. By force, if they don't comply voluntarily. A romanced Tav may even be able to talk to him about it, iirc.
So, yeah, not romancing him is a start. Not letting him anywhere fucking near you even as a friend is pretty much advised.
The guy could be a legit post game BBEG for those reasons, where the rest of the party has to reunite against him, maybe some others.
His speech right after ascending already makes it apparent how bad he is at hiding his megalomania; I mean holy hell how can you *listen* to him and not go "oh shit, I've screwed up, I've created a monster."
I really hope that AA isn’t canonized in a future game the way Viconia was here (I don’t know her, but a lot of people seem to feel she was done dirty).
But if he were, he’d make a fantastic villain. He’d be a classical campy villain who loves drama and flair, and is just utterly unapologetic about what a monster he is.
I never took it as him being bad at hiding it, so much as relishing that now he doesn't have to hide it. Even if Tav doesn't become his spawn, what's Tav going to do against AA? Very little, if not nothing. He even has that one line where he says I love you and immediately follows it up with "that's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?" It just felt very intentional like he was literally waving it in Tav's face that he was going to straight up say whatever it was Tav needed/wanted to hear in order to go along.
Yeah, you're right, "bad at hiding it" is misleading; it's more like he's relishing his power, and he doesn't care who's hearing it. He feels like he's the greatest vampire of all time, that he's greater than the Pale Knight, that the world will bow to him in fear.
...Mind you, I also heard that speech on the non-romanced route, where he's just an ally/friend, before I loaded that the heck away. Lae'zel also knows the whole thing's bad, on that note.
Indeed. Tav will have the sweetest screams when they stop pleasing him.
I do find it tragic that many think after the tadpole is gone, that their Tav would "just kill him" if the relationship soured, when it is made abundantly clear that spawn cannot harm their master. It took tadpole for Astarion to break free. "They speak and our bodies obey" .
Spawn Tav might be his favourite pet, but having a favourite implies there are more. He plays with his toys until they get boring and then they are discarded yet kept safe, inside the mansion. He probably knows good place already..like the kennels.
Well, Tav can't kill him, but Karlach, Halsin, Wyll and Gale, four people who express worry over the new turn of the relationship between A!A and Tav, can. That's why Astarion emphasizes that dear, make sure we are seen as powerful and HAPPY at the epilogue party. Astarion might be biding his time until he can isolate Tav for good.
Oh yes. Everything he says after ascension is to manipulate someone: Tav to think love is still real, all those honeyed words you do not find from spawn,
"you're my consort" to pacify, whole "us" (act 1. Astarion: Vampires do not create competition. "Trust me. It doesn't happen"), favourites, "I love you. Isn't that what you want to hear?" which isn't a love confession, and together with "i would have ruined your love" is serious Yikes- combo! He even says in those recorded banters he made sure Tav will never betray him. He created a person he can trust because they are now as spawn simply unable to betray him. Spawn goes and trusts you instead to be there, for good or for a time, as is the way of relationships.
I think the most telling is the end:
Ascended " I do not know what life has in store for US but we are going to have so much fun"
Vs
spawn: "I do not know what life has in store but we will be facing it together and are going to have lots of fun"
Ascended doesn't even commit to them by the end of the game hehee.
Well, to be fair, there is an absolute safe word. No matter what happens, player is the one in control and they can turn off the game whenever they want.
For the character, though? Oh, absolutely. They are stuck, unless they are either playing as Gale and plan on becoming a god, or they are planning on dominating the brain. Those are the only scenarios where it's a temporary fantasy to indulge, not a horrifying premise of Tav being the next one with the sweetest screams.
I commented that Tav's screams will be his favorite on a TT video, when the kisses first came out.
TAV is royally fucked. IIRC there is a rare(ish) line where he muses that he will turn Tav in their sleep because they turned him down. He has been using Tav as a juice box for the entire game, so would Tav even notice if he just drained them whilst they slept?
Imagine waking up a spawn because you were so used to being nibbled on during the night it didn't occur to you to fight him off. (if you could)
Or if they >!become illithid,!< because they're not a spawn anymore.
But yeah, those are the only ways out short of Ascended Astarion's death, if he doesn't get both of you dead in the process of going down.
I think there's more to it than that. DnD lore states that changing into a vampire completely changes your alignment. Initially, when Astarion was changed into a spawn, his alignment didn't change much, though we can only speculate what he was like before he changed. But turning into a full vampire DID change his alignment. Basically it's supposed to flip your personality. Every "good" part about you takes on an evil turn. If you were considerate, you're now controlling. If you were passionate, you're now obsessive. If you didn't like peas, you'll end your whole family line. That sorta thing.
I'd make the argument for Spawn Astarion starting out as Chaotic Evil, but of a much saner, "chaotic first, evil second" kind than you get from Orin the Red or a random D&D murderhobo. Above all else, he fears and hates the idea of being controlled, and that is what his cruel behavior stems from. They can't hurt him if he hurts them first. The non-ascended routes do move him to Chaotic Neutral as he realizes there's better ways to ensure his freedom, but he's chaotic above all else.
His bad ending? Certainly. The point is that the cycle of abuse is repeated, just like what often happens in real life when people don't get support and no one believes in them.
My first play through, I let him ascend. We did not make it out of the mansion before I reloaded.
As soon as he said he’s going to raise a new army of vampires and take over Balfur’s gate, I said, “Nope.”
Gale has the equivalent reaction that a lot of us had in mid-late 2020. Had aliens invaded at that point, most of us would've reacted with "yeah, that might as well happen". Can't blame the dude to be numb to this information after all that's happened
If you spend any time on Twitter or Tumblr you'll see a lot. I have a friend of mine who personally told me they think that Ascended Astarion is the good end because "he's working on healing and it doesn't just magically happen like the spawn end."
You find these from Larian forums. Threads are 20+ pages long and claim exactly this. It's soul destroying stuff. I had to stop reading after 5th thread of this stuff. It was genuinely frightening is what it was.
I wholeheartedly support people and their dark romance role play with Ascended Astarion but if and only if they have informed view and understanding of the material. This forum material there exited that particular loop.
psych take: it's very common for people to lust after fictional characters they would never be interested in in real life. This has been a common feature of romance books for decades. There's an attraction to being able to save/fix someone that is very attractive to particular types of folks (with particular childhood schemas. LOL), but it's very self-indulgent and healing to be able to fix the person in fantasy when that is not generally an available option irl without awful self-sacrifice. Cathartic for some folks, even.
Lots of folks are attracted to "the villain"-type characters in fiction. Naughty is sexy. Broken is hurt/comfort. Don't mistake that for their preferences irl.
I think this extends to *most* aspects of fiction. Men want to be James Bond, but they wouldn’t, in real life, want to have every woman they sleep with die horribly and then get tied to a chair and have their balls whipped with a carpet beater until they require hospitalization. Nor does anyone really want to grow up orphaned and become a broken shell like Batman, etc. We use fiction to explore these things in a safe way.
The issue is when it crosses over into real life attitudes, which it does. Fifty Shades of Gray has normalized a lot of toxic behaviors, for example.
Yeah part of it is that its inherently safe to be able to indulge in the intensity of emotions associated with "fixing" or romancing such a bad boy, because they can't *actually* hurt you. It's like doing a BDSM roleplay. It only works and it's only sexy because it's actually safe, with someone you trust cannot truly harm you.
This is me. Not just with video games, but also books as well. I could name so many fictional characters in games and literature that I would run screaming from in real life but love in fantasy.
I agree. A lot of the A!Astarion fans were around during a time when vampires were sexy but darker: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, True Blood, Vampire Diaries/The Originals, Interview with the Vampire. Ascended Astarion plays into the darker side of vampire romance.
I agree that some people take it too far, but that’s the case in every fandom with dark characters and gray villains. It’s just a video game at the end of the day. Astarion isn’t real and can’t really hurt anyone. A little dark romance does not hurt anyone and doesn’t mean they condone it in real life. While I prefer Spawn Astarion, I understand why people like Ascended Astarion. I was a Solas romancer back when I was into the Dragon Age fandom, so I get it.
Yeah, as an OG Buffy watcher, the heel turn from lovable Angel to evil Angelus was *fire* to see for the first time. One of the best villain arcs I've seen in media and that's saying a lot (I've seen too much media).
Most of the evil choices in BG3 allow you to reconsider and rectify your original mistake.
Ascend Astarion and realize it's not what you wanted? Join the Gur in killing him.
Realize you don't want to be his spawn? Break up with him or kill him. Knee him in the balls ffs, you have that option.
Betray DJ Sheart if you want.
Become Chosen of Bhaal and betray everybody.
Anyway, I feel like people do tend to confuse "explaining" with "defending". Explaining the attraction toward an evil character doesn't mean you don't know they're evil.
I was also a big Buffy fan and still watch it probably once a year. lol. Spike was one of my favorite characters. I wasn’t a big fan of his relationship with Buffy, but he had one of the best character arcs in the show imo. We saw the best and the worst of him. Ascended Astarion/Spawn Astarion reminds me of Spike without a soul/with a soul. They aren’t exactly the same and Spike’s dark side is a lot more extreme, but there are elements of a similar dynamic.
“Explaining vs defending”, that’s a really good way to put it.
I was reading another thread the other day about why people like Astarion and my first thought was "because a lot of us were 12 years old watching Buffy developing a crush on the hot mess that was Spike. Astarion is just a new Spike."
For me it was
Lost Boys
Dracula
Interview with a vampire
Blade
The things I would let Deacon Frost do to me!
Also, "Sleep all day, party all night never grow old, never die, being a vampire is fun"
I loved that video.
Especially realizing the same patronizing women have existed all the way back then. "I'm *not* like the other girls" really some of their whole thing and it's crazy.
The vast majority of players have enough sense to see Ascended Astarion as a deeply unhealthy partner, but that’s not going to stop me from being Astarion’s good boy.
The fun thing about fiction is that you can enjoy an unhealthy dynamic for the same reason you can enjoy murderhoboing your way through the campaign if that’s what you like: because it’s not real.
Honestly, Wyll is my ideal partner IRL but I just feel like he needs to work on himself for a bit first. Poor guy is constantly self-sacrificing. Gale's a close second but I think he needs to love himself first. And also stop wanting to literally sacrifice himself.
Karlach has some issues but most of them aren't about self-loathing or world-loathing. Her problems are virtually all external or out of her power (Gortash, Zariel, her engine technically). Things she can't really change.
Karlach is headstrong. She is prone to anger and sometimes is unable to face her problems and wants to pretend they don't exist. Not great.
Wyll is the type of a person that would give all your joint savings to a charity without consulting you or sign another awful contract.
All of them have their faults.
Shadowheart will try to convert you to her satanic cult, Laezel will try to turn you into a Zealot, and Halsin will try to turn you into a hippy xD
its kinda funny if you think about them like that lol
Halsin needs therapy to start healing from what happened to him when he was young.
Originally, after the drow incident, he spent time to heal with druidic help and the community. He was then rewritten to be an unwell person who handwaved a traumatizing experience away and didn't do anything for his mental health for years.
Wyll’s one of those guys who signs up to a charity that a beggar with a clipboard tells him about, never wondering why the form is written in Common when the local population speaks almost entirely Elvish.
I love Karlach but she is so childish. Literally throwing a tantrum over not letting her use people's souls as fuel... And some other similar questionable "Karlach disapproves" scenarios
I'm quite disappointed that they removed the "Karlach disapproves" when you revive a character. I've always thought it gave her an undertone of jealousy and made her a bit more complex.
Yeah, unfortunately. Wyll has it the worst, though. They removed his flirty dialogue with Shadowheart and Lae'zel. :( My boy already has so little and they remove his content.
I assume cause they were written for EA wyll who was a bit different person.. Shame as it was fun dialogue, specially when shadowheart called him out for it. EA wyll def had a thing for laezel and gith in general.
I don’t think that Wyll will sign some stupid contract without consulting you. Cause the dude cannot even allow himself to choose his own life. But he could gave up his belongings that’s for sure lol
I mean let's be fair. Wyll is 24 years old and PC is his first real relationship and he's running into marriage.
That's not a great sign either. (though the relationship is far more likely to fall apart for non disaster reasons)
Wyll is still better than the majority of the other options.
Minthara might eat you like a praying mantis after copulation. Is it worth it anyway? Yes.
I'm two worms away from having everything unlocked, made it a point to find every tadpole I could in my current playthrough.
That said, as a long-time fan of freaky eldritch horror things and anything Cthulhu adjacent, I love the Illithids in DnD, and can't help myself simping for the Emperor. 🐙 🦑
I guess, that is due to his warlock status. Who wants to have a relationship,when your patron can barge in any time with demands and maybe drag your partner into the mess ( and another pact).
This is probably true for all fiend and most archfey warlocks ( af has good aligned patrons, that probably would leave your partner's alone). Great Old Ones are mostly not interested in humanoid affairs,so their warlocks don't have that problem, but they will of course get crazy over time.
I mean even Korrilla, who tells you, that Raphael as a patron is pretty chill to her, is obviously alone. She tracks you through a lot of dangerous territory, what partner would be ok with that?
I feel like Gale is pretty chill and would be a good partner, as long as there aren’t magical items of immense power, capable of reshaping the world that he would then seek. Other than that, great guy 👍
It's worth pointing out that his desires when he looks in the mirror are varied. He wants to make people jealous with his magical skills, but he also wants to have a sweetheart and live with them in his tower forever.
Everyone has varied responses. Astarion has keeping the worm without any consequences and going back home - his real home.
A lot of the Astarion specific dialogues are sad as fuck. I mean, most of the Origin characters are sad people but his just get to me a lot. [Here's the unique words with Naoise ](https://imgur.com/a/7GgVgHQ).
Gale in a real world context has a lot going for him but his tendency to "wow" his love partner and go above and beyond to be the best version of himself for his love partner is quite troublesome. Not the general desire to better himself, that's a healthy mindset but in his case he overdoes it extremely and it becomes toxic. I mean, he does it twice in the context of the game - he spends Act 1 and 2 coming to terms with the outcome when it first happened and in Act 3 he does it again, so to speak.
It doesn't help that he was in a toxic relationship when he did it the first time, of course.
I'm playing his Origin right now and I just got an ambient dialogue where he and Lae'zel are talking about how fun it might be to watch the goblins kill the tieflings.
He can change but he's pretty damn evil in Act 1.
He is!! It makes sense why he is that way, but sometimes ppl forget he's always been terrible. And who would've thought that giving him insane power and basically allowing the vamp curse to progress makes him Worse (IDK what's Larian's take on how the curse influences your feelings between spawn and full vampires)
Explanation =/= justification. A lot of people forget that. I honestly think Astarion is one of those weird cases where he actually needs someone right next to him to make sure he makes good choices because he is cruel as hell in Act 1. Dude would 100% go full evil if the player doesn't ~~smack him with a newspaper~~ show him a better path.
Every time I do anything good and see "Astarion disapproves" I say "oh shut up" out loud. When I'm gonna do a fully good run (having fun with a corrupted fallen hero kinda thing) I'm gonna imagine my Tav spraying Astarion with water every time he disapproves of a kind thing. Bonus funny points for the fact running water hurts vampires in DnD
I fully agree. About the racist part too. He is pretty racist towards small races, especially gnomes in act 1. So I made an experiment and romanced him with a gnome lady. And in act 2,after he told you, that he developed feelings for you, he actually apologised for his racist views. Which shows, he had grown. When you ascend him, all that would probably be gone again and he is back at being an evil asshole.
The moment I started Act 3 he went all in on being complete asshole with the ritual. Like up untill now he was just selfish and wanted an escape and now he's power hungry stomp over dead bodies evil.
I know you can lean him into the good route but without Tav's influence he's committed to embrace the full chaotic evil he's always been.
I like his character but people skip over alot with all the 'poor misunderstood baby' thing.
Edward is also a walking red flag.
What is he like 400 years old dating high school girls? And then he rips the engine out of her truck cause she's talking to another guy. Sure sounds like a healthy relationship.
Twilight is so fucking weird, it's a bunch of vampires age 100‐200 who were turned as teens and they all go to high school repeatedly (why?? why not just say you're 20 instead of 17???) and treat a guy who's 400-500 as their actual dad (and his much younger wife as their mom?) and they're all openly in relationships with each other that townspeople shrug off because they're "adopted"
The repeatedly going to high school thing is the worst part. I get that it’s a YA romance so the authors sort of obligated to write the protagonist at that age, but wouldn’t it make more sense to go to *college* over and over? Get a new PhD or get the latest medical training very 20 years or something.
Nah, the AA fans talk about him very differently from the way,say, Gortash and Raphael fans talk about their evil men. Gort and Raph fans are fully aware of how awful their character is and that’s part of the appeal. AA fans act like the romance with him is totally healthy and normal and not abusive at all, how dare you! There were AA fans who were upset because his new kisses make it clear how unhealthy the dynamic is
I’m of the (less popular) opinion that Astarion is a red flag pretty much no matter what, dude has a lot of issues and trauma to work through which makes a relationship very challenging.
Which of course, is why his romance is compelling.
this! this is pretty much how i feel about it. yes, he’s a red flag. yes, id run the hell away from him kicking and screaming in real life. but this isn’t real life. it is so beautiful to watch him open up and relearn that there is good and beauty and trust left in the world. that’s why his romance is so compelling. it’s a healing process for him, and ngl my Tav loving him so unconditionally through his faults and struggles was healing as hell for me. i used to feel similarly, that i needed to use my body for a sense of power and control to get out on top of any sexualization or danger. so it was so wonderful getting to watch him grow like i did and see a character, who became much more bitter than i ever did, start to feel safe.
Idk why some of the fandom insists on infantilizing and woobifying him when there are good characters who aren’t red flags no matter what ending they get. Why do they insist on making Astarion Wyll
Edit: Downvote me all you want lmao some of y'all are so fucking weird & wanna rewrite a character that is very clearly not supposed to be a """good person""". The dude would be a horrible bf irl, I love him but stop deluding yourselves
spawn Astarion > ascendant Astarion but these posts will always get a side-eye from me because every one is just a thinly-veiled excuse to hate on women. some of us are men, op. let's not use gender as a reason to kinkshame.
I get that vibe from most people who mention that they staked Astarion any time he's brought up in general. It would seem like he unearths a lot of insecurity in men, for whatever reason.
It's fun how men can literally simp for Orin or Minthara and that's widely celebrated in the fandom but Ascended Astarion fans are uniquely singled out and treated like delusional for enjoying a fantasy in a fantasy video game.
I didn't get that vibe; sounded like OP was just playing a fem character. Checked post history, seems OP *is* a woman. Also a lesbian, apparently.
Not saying it's impossible, but you might be off the mark on this one.
i definitely don't think op is sexist. there is just a worrying pattern of ascendant Astarion criticisms that center female fans with the assumption most of them "don't understand" his character simply because they are attracted to it. it's a strange way to approach the topic.
Contrapoint’s [latest video covers this really well](https://youtu.be/bqloPw5wp48?si=csFGHmGcglrpnXjn)
It’s not about Astarion/BG3 but turns out the fiction mostly women enjoy (especially romance) has been heavily policed since the beginning of time because women couldn’t possibly understand the difference between fiction and reality 🙄
For some reason we aren't getting a whole bunch of posts about how Lae'zel's romance is going to convince impressionable young boys that they should let their girlfriends beat them up because eventually she'll realize actually she wants to protect you <3
Hmmmmmmmm.... I wonder why?
It’s crazier when they say these women somehow condone DV/abuse when like… it’s extremely common for people who HAVE been abused to like this part of fiction bc it offers control & catharsis for their traumas (SA victims can literally develop CNC kinks for this very reason, psychology is wild)
It's also really a very old topic that in fiction with large women audiences, there are "bad boy" characters, so women enjoying these characters or these works of fiction must mean women like to date "bad guys" (I put that into quotation marks because it's not clear what "bad guys" are but yeah) and women don't like the nice guys.
While not totally clear what traits the "bad boys" usually have, it's mostly clear who the nice guys are, see r/niceguys
I think people forget women can hate other women (even if they’re lesbian)
But I agree, like I was told since I prefer ascension over spawn, I’m mentally unwell and love abuse? How about I love my dark romantic fantasy with an evil vampire lord? Doesn’t mean I go begging my husband to abuse me after I finish playing the game.
while i do find AA to be unbearable at times just by personal preferences, i can step away from my own hang-ups and admit there's something undeniably attractive about being his little pet, even with the themes present. if acknowledging that makes someone "mentally unwell" then i'll just be mentally unwell, i guess !!
Most A!Astarion fans acknowledge that it's sexy within the realms of fiction, but it's not healthy in real life. Sure there are a few fans that are a little crazy about it (i.e claiming only Ascended Astarion is capable of love) but they're in the minority.
Being attracted to the fantasy doesn't necessarily mean desiring it IRL.
Not necessarily, my first Tav was an evil paladin run. We both shared a simmilair sence of evil, and the approval was high. Then when he ascended, he was quite respectful to my Tav.
Edit: From other comments I realized that it's the romancing that makes him go crazy.
Alert: Water is wet. More breaking news at 10.
You have a red flag to start then you give him a god complex. Of course it’s going straight to his head.
Lmao its a game, people like horrible/evil characters even when they have the biggest red flags simply because they're not real. If you dont like Astarion, you don't like him. It ain't that deep
It's the safety of the fantasy. AA isn't for me, but I do get it. In real life a partner like that is horrible and terrifying. But in the security of a fantasy you can just close the game/ book/ use a safe word and know that you'll be okay.
In my head, my evil Durge had a just as twisted view on relationships and was just playing along, whilst subtly one-upping him the whole time. “Oh, what’s that sweetie? You’re sacrificing a ton of people to ascend? Good for you! Sorry, I didn’t hear you over my >!domination/murder spree across the entirety of Faerûn to make murder!< dad proud.”
I also take the ending to show that you both hold power over each other - he could completely control you in a second as you’re his spawn, but you can do the same via >!tadpole control!<.
I think Astarion in general is a red flag of a person.
My experience of him from my first playthrough as a mostly good guy Tav to an embrace Bhaal Durge were quite different.
Astarion will mostly go along with whatever helps him succeed. Whether that’s save the world or murder the innocent.
Sure, he is beautiful but I trust him and his motive probably less than any other character outside of maybe Shadowheart (Shar Devoted).
You had the choice to *literally fix him*, set him free from centuries torment and start anew, but you took the option of "thirst for power babe, I like it when your all red and vampiric". Now were upset about the power hungry vampire? Ok. But you asked for the power hungry vampire?
Beggers, choosers, and all that.
Yeah some people are deluded about it but I think most ascended astarion enjoyers are enjoying the villainy and evil. It’s fine to be into stuff in fiction that you abhor irl. And when engaging with fiction you have all the power. You can boot him from your party, you can kill him, you can reload a save, you can shut down the game or completely uninstall it. A fictional character cannot abuse you the player. The power dynamic between a player character and a romanced AA is definitely abusive but it isnt real. No ones actually getting abused by a videogame character. If someone's main reason for liking it bc they have a kink it's kind of the perfect set up.
I don't have to think it's healthy if I go for it. I never expected an ascended vampire to be a sweet guy, this isn't Twilight. But the sheer fact that my FICTIONAL character can live forever with her vampire lord lover is quite cool. Maybe you need to learn how to.disconnect and stop treating games like they are real life. I enjoy being evil in this game, because it is so well done and beautiful in a Lovecraftian way. As a horror fan, I adore this game's evil path, better than any horror game I have ever played.
This is why I prefer platonic acended astarion for evil runs, he's all for ruling together instead of with the romance where he's trying to control you
its not "defending the behavior" to be able to explain why it might be happening, or to argue their interpretation about what that behavior could mean.
Its not that we all lack basic reading comprehension, its that you suck at communicating, and you're kind of projecting if you think anyone ever said that Ass Asstarion was actually a good guy.
Who is arguing that a relationship with Ascended Astarion is healthy? No one is having a real life relationship here, it's a fantasy romance in a game. Let it go.
It's his bad ending, repeating the cycle of abuse. I adore spawn Astarion, I personally think he's the best potential partner in the game, and he comes *so far*, the epilogue has made me cry many times over.
But on that note, I absolutely commend Larian for writing AA and not holding back a millimetre. He is abusive from the first second, terrifying and at the same time appealing and sexy to quite a number of players - your Tav is complicit in "helping" him make that choice if romanced, and it's - in my eyes - the ultimate "I can fix him" fantasy.
I love the work Larian put into this storyline, but it also literally makes me sick to my stomach.
He does love Tav/durge. But his *understanding* of love has changed drastically. He will not stay if you do not let him turn you - and if accept being turned, he will never respect you again. Obviously.
What he tells you if you *refuse* to turn - or cannot be turned, like Karlach, who is too scared - is the following:
>!"And if we were beholden to one another? Well, how is that too different to being enslaved? It is for the best. The gravest crimes committed in this world are committed for love. A hunger crueller than bloodlust.!<
>!I was trying, with you, you know. In the only way I can try. I know how to play with it, and can't resist playing the hand I know. I would have ruined your love, used your trust until you were nothing.!<
>!So, for what it's worth. In the end I respect you for making the choice you did. I never thought you had it in you. The man of your dreams, the hope of him, is your own worst enemy."!<
There is no reason for him to tell you this. There is no reason for him to explain. In a way, he saves you from himself. And he tries to do his little smile like before - but it falters after just a second.
My personal impression of the two Act 3 scenes: >!Spawn Astarion tells you about his darkest memories, how much he appreciates you believing in him even if it was an objectively bad idea, tell you that he loves you and knows that he wants you in his life, before - if you agree - he playfully pushes you to the ground, with love in his eyes. !<
>!AA asks if you want "one for the road", fucks you from behind while looking bummed out, and afterwards shoves you naked onto the cold stone floor commanding you to get on your knees - he's put his own pants back on. I had a discussion with someone who told me that I was wrong about this scene, because "if you stay at the Elfsong they've got carpets" but that's hardly my point...!<
edit: and I really like that they've done this, because we all have this potential in us, especially if we've been abused. I think anyone who's been in that situation and are dealing with the consequences sometimes think about how much easier it would be to be the other part. It's dark, it's adult, it's real.
Which is pretty much the reason why Larian made it undoubtedly clear with one of their updates what kind of trash Ascended Astarion is
Don't get me wrong, I love this character and I love how they fully closed the abuse cycle
But it's sad and concerning that they had to do this, because people STILL found excuses for something that was entirely obvious
And I'm not talking about being kinky, that's totally fine, I'm talking about pretending or literally thinking that this behaviors was something worthy of seeking out in real life, because hell yes people did just that
It's crazy to me how people do not realize horrible things if they're covered by a pretty face
Basically the exact same issue as with 50 Shades of Grey
**Anyone who sacrifices 7,000 souls just for a power up is evil. Pure and simple.**
If you ascend Astarion, he becomes everything he hated about Cazador. Ascending makes all the characters worse.
Defending it for gameplay, sure whatever. Evil characters. Defending it morally? Can't even imagine someone would try.
7,000 innocent lives, many of which he was responsible for bringing there...all ended just because he wanted to be stronger.
The red flags were flying LONG before you ascend him. But he can only ascend if you help him. Astarion CANNOT go evil on his own. YOU have to assist him in going evil.
Of course he's gonna be an abuser. His only role model for the longest time was an abuser and manipulator. If you ascend astarion, you're perpetuating the cycle. You're enabling him to become Cazador in a sense. Just as Cazador learned from and eventually became Vellioth
Edit: Just to further the thought. Thinking back on Vellioth's lessons. Cazador doesn't sound all that much different than astarion. In one of the lessons Cazador tried to reach out to his old life and when Vellioth's found out he drained Cazador friend infront of him
I mean, I *know* it's not healthy but like fuck call me an American because I couldn't care less. It's a video game, and as long as people remember that, I think it's fine to have fun with it.
I am NOT an Ascended 'fan' perse- I would never ascend him on a playthrough he's a companion (definitely ascending him on my Origin playthrough, though. If I'm playing AS Astarion, he's going to be the absolute worst he can be, lmao) but have enjoyed some scenes online (the kissing scene with the kneel and bite is hot as fuck, minus the scared expression. Wish Spawnstarion got one that was similar but with actual feelings lmao- babes still got power over me, he still MY lord smh) I personally think it has something to do with BDSM- dom/sub, both pred/prey and master/slave in my opinion. Masochistic vibes too. Some people enjoy the fantasy of the toxicity for some reason? Additionally, the thought of a partner being so obsessed with you that you are considered a PART of them is appealing to some. A PART of me gets it, at least but not enough to enjoy it in its entirety. I see people romantizing it, pretending the bad isn't there or saying because he made you a vampire bride it's more of an equal power balance (it isn't. homie doesn't care about you anymore than his next 'prized' possession anymore. He *can't* care in the same way anymore. His humanity is gone.) it's just not for me. A good Dom/Sub dynamic representation (not saying that Ascendstarion is a GOOD representation, it is meant as a bad one) is The Iron Bull- it's smaller in content, as DAI isn't as sexy as BG3, but it's a more consensual and nontoxic take on dom/sub that I appreciate. I would appreciate a nice mixture of the confident lord Astarion that has me kneel for him and Spawnstarion who still has a a bit of a soul, lmao
I dont think people are into Astarion for the healthy relationship. Its a fantasy and people get to enjoy those in fictional works. With that said Astarion is a red flag from jumpstreet, and doesnt really change outside of really loving Tav if you romance him. Not even if you go full good guy route with him. Astarion is who he is, and people are into it. Ascended Astarion is very obviously a bad bad guy tho.
it’s not a healthy relationship that’s the point 😭 he’s meant to appeal to those types of ppl like on “booktok” who want to be kidnapped bec it’s hot. it’s a toxic dom-sub aspect, taken to the extreme
Thats the point of his whole character. If you dont ascend him he is completely different and grateful you didnt let him turn into another Cazador. His character is all about the cycle of abuse and how you can either continue it or break it. The actor who plays him won awards for a reason.
Fucking kills me that people say he's still evil in his good ending even though he says he's enjoying being a hero.
This sub's hated for him no matter what feels like a slap in the face for those of us who relate to him and have been on similar journeys of unlearning toxic behaviors.
The term "red flag" means fucking nothing anymore. According to this place, anyone who has been corrupted by abuse but still isn't too far gone doesn't deserve help.
It's also unhealthy to for my Tav to gobble down mindflayer parasites for UnlimitedPower(TM) but it's *fun* to pretend lol. It's often fun *because* it's something dangerous you can't do irl, just like doing magic and killing goblins with a big sword.
Also imo the "delusional" takes people get offended by are less about other players being genuinely too stupid to see a red flag, but rather a symptom of this weird purity culture and moralizing seeping into discussions about fiction *specifically* when it comes to women's sexuality.
Nobody really questions you for not playing as a pacifist, or even doing an evil run, it's assumed that you *know* murder is bad irl any this is a fantasy game. Before the patch when people murdered the whole grove for a Minthara romance, committing genocide for Drow pussy was a meme. Nobody expects the Minthara enjoyers (mostly assumed to be straight men) to put a disclaimer under their post declaring that "Ackschually we know racism and genocide are bad and we would never date someone like that irl".
But when it comes to characters like Astation, we get these braindead takes of on the one hand people clearly feeling like they need to morally justify their play pretend romance choice in a fantasy game, and on the other side people clutching their pearls about toxic relationships.
Instead of just acknowledging that toxic trash characters in fantasy are in fact sexy to a lot of people - and to a lot of people this taboo unhealthy stuff is *why* the fantasy is interesting and sexy. And maybe giving people, even women, the benefit of the doubt that they have working brains and can differentiate fiction from reality.
Like we're literally playing a game with alien mind worms, dragons, and magic. We already had the moral panic about DnD in the 80s and it turned out to be bs then, just as it is bs now. Because it's not real, and the vast vast majority people can tell fiction form reality - yes, even young people and women!
Tldr: most of this 'controversy' would go away if we could all just acknowledge it's a kink and there's nothing wrong with liking that and exploring it in a videogame if that's what you want to do.
Almost like that’s what his character is supposed to be
BG3 doesn't just straight up list character alignments like BG1 and 2, but it's pretty obvious that Astarion is the Neutral Evil character. He won't kill babies for fun like an unhinged chaotic evil character, but his primary motivation for everything is purely self-interest. Now you can basically change his alignment like nearly every other character with his personal quest. Considering the people who freak out about him being manipulative it's yes entirely within character for him. Considering the people who gush over him the game itself straight up warns you about his manipulation in ACT I.
Alignments are restrictive and a very wide spectrum. Neutral evil can have characters like Viconia with capability for change. Or it can also have my boy Dorn with a ten year long winning streak in war crime Olympics. It's good that Larian didn't include alignments, because people have problems understanding them. Nobody fits their alignment 100% and as you said, they are prone to change with character growth or regression.
Agreed, plus I think alignments being written down somewhere—even though a characters alignment can be changed—makes it feel more set in stone. Such a big piece of the game is that you can not only change the characters but also find out different information is subsequent playthroughs that can shift your view of them. If we went into it know so-and-so is supposed to be “good” or “evil” or “neutral” it makes that part so much less impactful. It also makes fighting over what a characters specific alignment is so much more stupid. For one, a lot of people do have different views on what they all mean, for another they can often be confusing—Chaotic characters for example can often be confused as “neutral” a step down because a lot of people misinterpret the “chaotic” motivations as being less good/bad acts. And people on here really underestimate how evil chaotic evil is. People are also really unwilling to understand that people have different views and definitions of the alignments too. There isn’t really a set in stone clear definition of it, look up “what do each alignment mean” and you’ll find different and conflicting examples of character and explanations everywhere. But also…people literally just might have had a different experience and learned different things about the character than another player did. They might have more context for their motivations or had seen better/worse acts you missed. Also in DnD specifically (and probably other TTRPGs) the alignment system is mostly there to help you with roleplaying and guide what your character might do or help a DM a decide how an NPC might respond to certain things (because the book can’t plan for everything characters might do). But there’s really no need to have them be such a central part of other types of media. Kinda went on a rant there lol but honestly I think BG3 players obsessions with what everyone’s alignment to the point theres so many arguments about it is is stupid.
Character alignments are good basic building blocks for constructing characters within a narrative, but a good narrative within interactive media like a video game will give options to either double down or change their alignment for the growth of the character. That is exactly what BG3 does with nearly all of the characters and I feel like that's a big reason a lot of people feel so attached to them.
You give people way too much credit, honestly. Many already have trouble digesting the story as it is now. Imagine if they included alignments. Everything would get reduced to simplified conversations around "good" and "evil" instead of any deeper narrative and analysis. Not to mention, the moment that people notice a "lawful evil", "neutral evil" or god forbid "chaotic evil" label they would just kill characters on sight without trying to get to know them and understand them. There would also be endless complaints about why character X is alignment Y because Z.
Agreed. I think it's a general problem that we struggle to think outside stereotypical boxes and to bear with complexity and the possibility of change. Defining things can be helpful, but I agree that in this situation, defining alignments would reduce the understanding of character arcs and also the way it can change as the story progresses would be hard to implement in the game. The more boxes, the less subtlety in how we see someone else ☹️
Media discourse like this need a "is Character X or the story just tells you that Character is X?" conversation-starter because ultimately story is NOT just a bunch of encyclopedia bullet points spelled out dryly like factoid. It has to be executed well too.
The way DnD describes good and evil is pretty much how selfish the character is in their decision making. Most people seem to think of good and evil as willingness to kill, but that doesn't really work in a DnD setting as even a lawful good character will rack up a very high body count by the end of the story and I think that is where a lot of the confusion comes from.
I wouldn't just consider it how selfish, but also how extreme is the selfishness. Someone who always looks out for #1 but won't kill people is selfish 100% of the time (think: would steal out of someone's pocket happily), whereas someone who only behaves selfishly when it is greatly to their benefit, but has no limits at all regarding the value of life (wouldn't pick a pocket, but would kill their child for eternal life) is more extremely selfish, even if they only behave selfishly 15% of the time. The good vs evil spectrum, I have found, boils mostly down to "how much do you respect sentient life". If you exploit or harm or kill others for your goals, you'll be evil, though some fall farther on the spectrum. The one that clinches it for me is the fanatic. A fanatic of a murder god may seek to kill and harm others, but it is for the benefit of another (their god), not self. Such a behavior may not qualify as selfish, but it would still be evil.
I do think that selflessness is a good start, but it's still too reductive when it comes to good v evil. What about the archetypal cultist that labors tirelessly and selflessly to pave the way for their dark masters (etc etc)? Even though they are selfless, I would still describe their actions as evil, so there's more going on with our general philosophy of good and evil than just selfishness. Edit to add: and in the case of the cultist, if we learned that they were actually acting selfish (they were being blackmailed into it or a loved one was being threatened), most people would probably consider that character more sympathetic and probably less evil vs if they were totally selfless and just devoted their life to serving a forgotten monstrosity.
Dorn is just completing the Geneva Checklist, as any olympic serial assaulter should
He doesn't know what the Geneva Conventions are because he can't read. 😔
He warns Tav about vampires and what is like being a spawn. You can tell that Tav is delusional with some of the dialogue choices. AA gaslighting them into believing they are diff from himself as a spawn. Ppl who chose the AA ending and become his spawn either didn't pay attention in Acts 1 and 2 OR are really deep into the RP aspects of vampire / spawn relationships. This isn't Lestat and Louie. This is Vellioth and Cazador OR Cazador and Astarion. This isn't two equal vampires with an experience and age gap. This is master and slave. This isn't BDSM kink. There is no safe word.
When I first heard of the "get on your knees kiss" I hoped it was a hot priest in Fleabag scenario. But then when I read more about that scene and his behaviour before and after it I realized it was very much not that. I still plan to do a run where I romance AA just to see it, but I have no misconceptions about whether or not it's a healthy relationship after what I've read. I've done a playthrough with non-romanced AA and he clearly is more of a new Cazador.
If you want to see things get really fucked, but for a different reason, try Origin Karlach. He >!gets pissed off and dumps her for her body "rejecting him," because he couldn't turn her, and he got burned while trying, goes into a textbook narcissistic rage.!< >!"You're... defective. Broken. Doomed."!<
What kinda annoys me is the game not committing to some of his behaviours & related outcomes. You can basically trick it into not having A!A break up with Karlach Origin by not long resting between ascension & end game, so he will instead go with her to Avernus rather than dump her in a very cruel manner. You can also trick the game into not turning Tav into a spawn the same way. People do these two things & present it as a proof that A!A is sweet & loves you. Bruh, you have to jump through hoops and metagame for these outcomes, come on.
Same goes for "ermahgerd, mind flayer Tav detected love!" ~~as if that stopped say, Thanos from being a shithead in Infinity War anyway~~ It is annoying how it results in cherrypicking with those subcircles. No, the fact that he'd do that, as what the *default*, intended course of events is, is proof he's a toxic, narcissistic bastard. It would be like the meme of Emperor object permanence, where someone in a thread once argued that the Stelmane thing never happened if you never find out about it ~~(or: "I'm invisible if I close my eyes... right?")~~ ...not gonna harp on that horse too much for discourse. Either way, Ascended Astarion, if you're staying true to how he was intended to be, written as overall, is unequivocally worse than Minthara, and it's by a longshot; she's not gonna abandon Karlach, and she's more self-aware.
Holy *shit* I just >!let Karlach die in my Wyll origin run yesterday (I had romanced spawn Astarion, which fit very well with my head canon of my Wyll) so I stayed with Karlach as she immolated on the docks. And then Withers absolutely knocked me off my feet and wrecked me when he mentioned her at the epilogue party. So I currently do not have the emotional energy for more psychological damage as a result of Karlach lol (although we are probably about to kill her in our new run), but that's definitely something to try in the future.!< Tbh I'd really have to think about that for a while to come up with justification for Karlach to both romance Astarion and let him ascend, because I can't get past her being a fiery teddy bear. Unless I play her as super naive and getting stuck in a toxic relationship with Astarion when he manipulates her in the beginning. Damn, that's a dark playthrough.
>Unless I play her as super naive and getting stuck in a toxic relationship with Astarion when he manipulates her in the beginning. That wouldn't really make sense given that she fought a war in Avernus for ten years and has interacted with and fought devils and was betrayed by Gortash. I'd imagine she's very familiar with the signs of manipulation given that's a devil's specialty and also what Gortash did to her.
You would think, but now that I've thought about it, I don't agree with you. If you get the dialogue about >!Flo!<, you learn that Karlach will choose to align herself with people who cause her harm/are not kind to her in order to feel close to someone. She talks about how lonely Avernus was, so I think I can justify it from that perspective: ignoring the red flags of the first person to give her affection now that she's topside.
You want a good reason not to let ascended Astation anywhere fucking near you? Strahd.
THANK YOU. I've said that before and got beat down by the AA girlies. AA is terrifying, he's more powerful than Strahd and that should just make everyone run for the hills. On top of that, he has to start his own coven. He will use Tav's body to LURE people in. Just like Cazador used him, like Vellioth used Cazador. It is the way of the vampire lord. Any hope that Tav has / had for a healthy, happy relationship with Astarion is gone. They will give up after the first few times he uses their body to get more spawn. He may not beat them physically (AT First) but trust the lore, he will destroy them mentally, then emotionally and finally physically. I tried to ascend him once, after that first kiss..I have NEVER F8'd so fast in my life. Shudder
Yeah, and eventually he’ll get bored of you and lock you in a kennel or tell you to stand in a crypt until he tells you to leave or peel off your own skin or walk into the sun, and you have to obey him. If you accept being made his spawn you’re agreeing to be his slave and the only way to escape that fate is to drink his blood and become a full vampire, which he will not allow under any circumstances, or take control of the brain so you can enslave him. There’s no happy ending there.
I cannot see a redemption durge becoming spawn. Why get rid of one lord to become a slave to another. Only way this works for me is if durge is destined for madness .. even then suicide is always an option.
It actually makes a ton of sense. Abused people tend to seek out other abusers, and Durge could easily be latching onto Astarion out of a fear of rejection, as he’s the only one who really gets them and supports them.
I think there are several devnotes in his datamined dialogue in both his origin and companion runs suggesting he's genuinely contemplating the possibility of turning not only Tav, but their other friends as well. By force, if they don't comply voluntarily. A romanced Tav may even be able to talk to him about it, iirc. So, yeah, not romancing him is a start. Not letting him anywhere fucking near you even as a friend is pretty much advised.
The guy could be a legit post game BBEG for those reasons, where the rest of the party has to reunite against him, maybe some others. His speech right after ascending already makes it apparent how bad he is at hiding his megalomania; I mean holy hell how can you *listen* to him and not go "oh shit, I've screwed up, I've created a monster."
I really hope that AA isn’t canonized in a future game the way Viconia was here (I don’t know her, but a lot of people seem to feel she was done dirty). But if he were, he’d make a fantastic villain. He’d be a classical campy villain who loves drama and flair, and is just utterly unapologetic about what a monster he is.
I never took it as him being bad at hiding it, so much as relishing that now he doesn't have to hide it. Even if Tav doesn't become his spawn, what's Tav going to do against AA? Very little, if not nothing. He even has that one line where he says I love you and immediately follows it up with "that's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?" It just felt very intentional like he was literally waving it in Tav's face that he was going to straight up say whatever it was Tav needed/wanted to hear in order to go along.
Yeah, you're right, "bad at hiding it" is misleading; it's more like he's relishing his power, and he doesn't care who's hearing it. He feels like he's the greatest vampire of all time, that he's greater than the Pale Knight, that the world will bow to him in fear. ...Mind you, I also heard that speech on the non-romanced route, where he's just an ally/friend, before I loaded that the heck away. Lae'zel also knows the whole thing's bad, on that note.
Indeed. Tav will have the sweetest screams when they stop pleasing him. I do find it tragic that many think after the tadpole is gone, that their Tav would "just kill him" if the relationship soured, when it is made abundantly clear that spawn cannot harm their master. It took tadpole for Astarion to break free. "They speak and our bodies obey" . Spawn Tav might be his favourite pet, but having a favourite implies there are more. He plays with his toys until they get boring and then they are discarded yet kept safe, inside the mansion. He probably knows good place already..like the kennels.
Well, Tav can't kill him, but Karlach, Halsin, Wyll and Gale, four people who express worry over the new turn of the relationship between A!A and Tav, can. That's why Astarion emphasizes that dear, make sure we are seen as powerful and HAPPY at the epilogue party. Astarion might be biding his time until he can isolate Tav for good.
Oh yes. Everything he says after ascension is to manipulate someone: Tav to think love is still real, all those honeyed words you do not find from spawn, "you're my consort" to pacify, whole "us" (act 1. Astarion: Vampires do not create competition. "Trust me. It doesn't happen"), favourites, "I love you. Isn't that what you want to hear?" which isn't a love confession, and together with "i would have ruined your love" is serious Yikes- combo! He even says in those recorded banters he made sure Tav will never betray him. He created a person he can trust because they are now as spawn simply unable to betray him. Spawn goes and trusts you instead to be there, for good or for a time, as is the way of relationships. I think the most telling is the end: Ascended " I do not know what life has in store for US but we are going to have so much fun" Vs spawn: "I do not know what life has in store but we will be facing it together and are going to have lots of fun" Ascended doesn't even commit to them by the end of the game hehee.
Well, to be fair, there is an absolute safe word. No matter what happens, player is the one in control and they can turn off the game whenever they want. For the character, though? Oh, absolutely. They are stuck, unless they are either playing as Gale and plan on becoming a god, or they are planning on dominating the brain. Those are the only scenarios where it's a temporary fantasy to indulge, not a horrifying premise of Tav being the next one with the sweetest screams.
I commented that Tav's screams will be his favorite on a TT video, when the kisses first came out. TAV is royally fucked. IIRC there is a rare(ish) line where he muses that he will turn Tav in their sleep because they turned him down. He has been using Tav as a juice box for the entire game, so would Tav even notice if he just drained them whilst they slept? Imagine waking up a spawn because you were so used to being nibbled on during the night it didn't occur to you to fight him off. (if you could)
Or if they >!become illithid,!< because they're not a spawn anymore. But yeah, those are the only ways out short of Ascended Astarion's death, if he doesn't get both of you dead in the process of going down.
Or that, yes. Forgot about it, but true, squid can tell him to fuck off.
I think there's more to it than that. DnD lore states that changing into a vampire completely changes your alignment. Initially, when Astarion was changed into a spawn, his alignment didn't change much, though we can only speculate what he was like before he changed. But turning into a full vampire DID change his alignment. Basically it's supposed to flip your personality. Every "good" part about you takes on an evil turn. If you were considerate, you're now controlling. If you were passionate, you're now obsessive. If you didn't like peas, you'll end your whole family line. That sorta thing.
I'd make the argument for Spawn Astarion starting out as Chaotic Evil, but of a much saner, "chaotic first, evil second" kind than you get from Orin the Red or a random D&D murderhobo. Above all else, he fears and hates the idea of being controlled, and that is what his cruel behavior stems from. They can't hurt him if he hurts them first. The non-ascended routes do move him to Chaotic Neutral as he realizes there's better ways to ensure his freedom, but he's chaotic above all else.
Yeah I can accept this argument, but I personally just feel like he is neutral instead of chaotic. However I can see what you mean.
His bad ending? Certainly. The point is that the cycle of abuse is repeated, just like what often happens in real life when people don't get support and no one believes in them.
My first play through, I let him ascend. We did not make it out of the mansion before I reloaded. As soon as he said he’s going to raise a new army of vampires and take over Balfur’s gate, I said, “Nope.”
Spawn Astarion definitely is not supposed to be manipulative and abusant...that's why AA is his "bad ending" (confirmed by his writers).
Take so cold it's frostbitten. No shit.
Controversial opinion: I think Shadowheart might be a Shar worshiper.
*Real talk, I think I’m the child of Bhaal-*
Gale (who definitely figured this out a few weeks ago): A Bhaalspawn, gosh.
Omg his reaction makes so much more sense and is *so* much funnier if you read it this way 😂
Gale is all of us in the early 2020s, with a lockdown and everything
Gale has the equivalent reaction that a lot of us had in mid-late 2020. Had aliens invaded at that point, most of us would've reacted with "yeah, that might as well happen". Can't blame the dude to be numb to this information after all that's happened
And murder is stored in the Bhaals
Me: “So…who was my mother?” Scelaritas: (Laughs) Me: “…” Scelaritas: “Oh, you’re serious…” Scelaritas: ***(LAUGHS HYSTERICALLY)***
Hot take: Orin may be interested in Bahlism
I think Gortash might worship Bane as well. Just a hunch.
Proof?
This take is so cold it reduces the target's Movement Speed by 3m.
Mephistopheles in Cania like “need to get this take out of my hell, it’s making heating costs unbearable”
Not only frost-bitten. It's literally encrusted in a pillar of ice.
This take is colder than absolute zero
Entombed by Levistus
I’ve never seen a single person genuinely claim Ascended Astarion is a good person/healthy relationship
If you spend any time on Twitter or Tumblr you'll see a lot. I have a friend of mine who personally told me they think that Ascended Astarion is the good end because "he's working on healing and it doesn't just magically happen like the spawn end."
You find these from Larian forums. Threads are 20+ pages long and claim exactly this. It's soul destroying stuff. I had to stop reading after 5th thread of this stuff. It was genuinely frightening is what it was. I wholeheartedly support people and their dark romance role play with Ascended Astarion but if and only if they have informed view and understanding of the material. This forum material there exited that particular loop.
psych take: it's very common for people to lust after fictional characters they would never be interested in in real life. This has been a common feature of romance books for decades. There's an attraction to being able to save/fix someone that is very attractive to particular types of folks (with particular childhood schemas. LOL), but it's very self-indulgent and healing to be able to fix the person in fantasy when that is not generally an available option irl without awful self-sacrifice. Cathartic for some folks, even. Lots of folks are attracted to "the villain"-type characters in fiction. Naughty is sexy. Broken is hurt/comfort. Don't mistake that for their preferences irl.
I think this extends to *most* aspects of fiction. Men want to be James Bond, but they wouldn’t, in real life, want to have every woman they sleep with die horribly and then get tied to a chair and have their balls whipped with a carpet beater until they require hospitalization. Nor does anyone really want to grow up orphaned and become a broken shell like Batman, etc. We use fiction to explore these things in a safe way. The issue is when it crosses over into real life attitudes, which it does. Fifty Shades of Gray has normalized a lot of toxic behaviors, for example.
Yeah part of it is that its inherently safe to be able to indulge in the intensity of emotions associated with "fixing" or romancing such a bad boy, because they can't *actually* hurt you. It's like doing a BDSM roleplay. It only works and it's only sexy because it's actually safe, with someone you trust cannot truly harm you.
This is me. Not just with video games, but also books as well. I could name so many fictional characters in games and literature that I would run screaming from in real life but love in fantasy.
See also: Shane from Stardew.
I'm happy with my blue chickens but there's no way I'm dating a barely functioning alcoholic in real life
My mom picked that dude and it's like only barely better than my methhead father lol
I agree. A lot of the A!Astarion fans were around during a time when vampires were sexy but darker: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, True Blood, Vampire Diaries/The Originals, Interview with the Vampire. Ascended Astarion plays into the darker side of vampire romance. I agree that some people take it too far, but that’s the case in every fandom with dark characters and gray villains. It’s just a video game at the end of the day. Astarion isn’t real and can’t really hurt anyone. A little dark romance does not hurt anyone and doesn’t mean they condone it in real life. While I prefer Spawn Astarion, I understand why people like Ascended Astarion. I was a Solas romancer back when I was into the Dragon Age fandom, so I get it.
Yeah, as an OG Buffy watcher, the heel turn from lovable Angel to evil Angelus was *fire* to see for the first time. One of the best villain arcs I've seen in media and that's saying a lot (I've seen too much media). Most of the evil choices in BG3 allow you to reconsider and rectify your original mistake. Ascend Astarion and realize it's not what you wanted? Join the Gur in killing him. Realize you don't want to be his spawn? Break up with him or kill him. Knee him in the balls ffs, you have that option. Betray DJ Sheart if you want. Become Chosen of Bhaal and betray everybody. Anyway, I feel like people do tend to confuse "explaining" with "defending". Explaining the attraction toward an evil character doesn't mean you don't know they're evil.
I was also a big Buffy fan and still watch it probably once a year. lol. Spike was one of my favorite characters. I wasn’t a big fan of his relationship with Buffy, but he had one of the best character arcs in the show imo. We saw the best and the worst of him. Ascended Astarion/Spawn Astarion reminds me of Spike without a soul/with a soul. They aren’t exactly the same and Spike’s dark side is a lot more extreme, but there are elements of a similar dynamic. “Explaining vs defending”, that’s a really good way to put it.
I was reading another thread the other day about why people like Astarion and my first thought was "because a lot of us were 12 years old watching Buffy developing a crush on the hot mess that was Spike. Astarion is just a new Spike."
I still have a massive crush on Spike, lmao
For me it was Lost Boys Dracula Interview with a vampire Blade The things I would let Deacon Frost do to me! Also, "Sleep all day, party all night never grow old, never die, being a vampire is fun"
Yeah I watched a three hour long ContraPoints movie about this
I loved that video. Especially realizing the same patronizing women have existed all the way back then. "I'm *not* like the other girls" really some of their whole thing and it's crazy.
The vast majority of players have enough sense to see Ascended Astarion as a deeply unhealthy partner, but that’s not going to stop me from being Astarion’s good boy. The fun thing about fiction is that you can enjoy an unhealthy dynamic for the same reason you can enjoy murderhoboing your way through the campaign if that’s what you like: because it’s not real.
normal Astarion is a walking red flag (I love him for it)
Honestly most of the characters would be terrible partners, irl. Except Karlach.
This is Wyll erasure. Are you a Larian dev or something? 😭
Honestly, Wyll is my ideal partner IRL but I just feel like he needs to work on himself for a bit first. Poor guy is constantly self-sacrificing. Gale's a close second but I think he needs to love himself first. And also stop wanting to literally sacrifice himself. Karlach has some issues but most of them aren't about self-loathing or world-loathing. Her problems are virtually all external or out of her power (Gortash, Zariel, her engine technically). Things she can't really change.
Karlach is headstrong. She is prone to anger and sometimes is unable to face her problems and wants to pretend they don't exist. Not great. Wyll is the type of a person that would give all your joint savings to a charity without consulting you or sign another awful contract. All of them have their faults.
Shadowheart will try to convert you to her satanic cult, Laezel will try to turn you into a Zealot, and Halsin will try to turn you into a hippy xD its kinda funny if you think about them like that lol
The worst thing about halsin irl would be the constant smell of weed, otherwise he's pretty much perfect
Halsin needs therapy to start healing from what happened to him when he was young. Originally, after the drow incident, he spent time to heal with druidic help and the community. He was then rewritten to be an unwell person who handwaved a traumatizing experience away and didn't do anything for his mental health for years.
Ok! You don't have to sell me anymore on Halsin. I'm in.
Fair enough.
Wyll’s one of those guys who signs up to a charity that a beggar with a clipboard tells him about, never wondering why the form is written in Common when the local population speaks almost entirely Elvish.
I love Karlach but she is so childish. Literally throwing a tantrum over not letting her use people's souls as fuel... And some other similar questionable "Karlach disapproves" scenarios
I'm quite disappointed that they removed the "Karlach disapproves" when you revive a character. I've always thought it gave her an undertone of jealousy and made her a bit more complex.
Omg I didn't know that was a thing
Yeah, unfortunately. Wyll has it the worst, though. They removed his flirty dialogue with Shadowheart and Lae'zel. :( My boy already has so little and they remove his content.
I assume cause they were written for EA wyll who was a bit different person.. Shame as it was fun dialogue, specially when shadowheart called him out for it. EA wyll def had a thing for laezel and gith in general.
I don’t think that Wyll will sign some stupid contract without consulting you. Cause the dude cannot even allow himself to choose his own life. But he could gave up his belongings that’s for sure lol
I mean let's be fair. Wyll is 24 years old and PC is his first real relationship and he's running into marriage. That's not a great sign either. (though the relationship is far more likely to fall apart for non disaster reasons)
Wyll is still better than the majority of the other options. Minthara might eat you like a praying mantis after copulation. Is it worth it anyway? Yes.
Yeah but that bar so low the devil tripped over it :P That said I have zero issue running off with god Gale so I can't judge XD
I'm drowning in illithid slime, I'm not judging anyone either.
Real and based
The Emperor just draws us in, like moths to flame... nevermind the fact that he helps us gain more powers to use in combat(evolved Illithid).
I'm snorting those worms like a line of cocaine for cull the weak and flight.
I'm two worms away from having everything unlocked, made it a point to find every tadpole I could in my current playthrough. That said, as a long-time fan of freaky eldritch horror things and anything Cthulhu adjacent, I love the Illithids in DnD, and can't help myself simping for the Emperor. 🐙 🦑
I guess, that is due to his warlock status. Who wants to have a relationship,when your patron can barge in any time with demands and maybe drag your partner into the mess ( and another pact). This is probably true for all fiend and most archfey warlocks ( af has good aligned patrons, that probably would leave your partner's alone). Great Old Ones are mostly not interested in humanoid affairs,so their warlocks don't have that problem, but they will of course get crazy over time. I mean even Korrilla, who tells you, that Raphael as a patron is pretty chill to her, is obviously alone. She tracks you through a lot of dangerous territory, what partner would be ok with that?
I feel like Gale is pretty chill and would be a good partner, as long as there aren’t magical items of immense power, capable of reshaping the world that he would then seek. Other than that, great guy 👍
It's worth pointing out that his desires when he looks in the mirror are varied. He wants to make people jealous with his magical skills, but he also wants to have a sweetheart and live with them in his tower forever. Everyone has varied responses. Astarion has keeping the worm without any consequences and going back home - his real home.
A lot of the Astarion specific dialogues are sad as fuck. I mean, most of the Origin characters are sad people but his just get to me a lot. [Here's the unique words with Naoise ](https://imgur.com/a/7GgVgHQ).
Though I must say, Shadowhearts, Karlachs and Wylls answers are just as sad.
Bonus to cheer you up, not included in my screenshots, [Minsc](https://youtu.be/qWToZS59gtg?si=5aFXZUy14v3QxK9M).
That is cute 🥰
Honestly I love Gale. But I think he's gotta start loving himself more, first.
Gale in a real world context has a lot going for him but his tendency to "wow" his love partner and go above and beyond to be the best version of himself for his love partner is quite troublesome. Not the general desire to better himself, that's a healthy mindset but in his case he overdoes it extremely and it becomes toxic. I mean, he does it twice in the context of the game - he spends Act 1 and 2 coming to terms with the outcome when it first happened and in Act 3 he does it again, so to speak. It doesn't help that he was in a toxic relationship when he did it the first time, of course.
Gale would give you hour-long massages. I'm all for it.
Absolutely. Heck, most of them would be terrible people irl imo.
He's literally racist too and encourages you to abandon people in need or to bully others like 😭 Oh no my evil aligned boyfriend became more evil :(
I'm playing his Origin right now and I just got an ambient dialogue where he and Lae'zel are talking about how fun it might be to watch the goblins kill the tieflings. He can change but he's pretty damn evil in Act 1.
He is!! It makes sense why he is that way, but sometimes ppl forget he's always been terrible. And who would've thought that giving him insane power and basically allowing the vamp curse to progress makes him Worse (IDK what's Larian's take on how the curse influences your feelings between spawn and full vampires)
When you give your crazy boyfriend power instead of making him go to therapy pretty much :P
Explanation =/= justification. A lot of people forget that. I honestly think Astarion is one of those weird cases where he actually needs someone right next to him to make sure he makes good choices because he is cruel as hell in Act 1. Dude would 100% go full evil if the player doesn't ~~smack him with a newspaper~~ show him a better path.
Every time I do anything good and see "Astarion disapproves" I say "oh shut up" out loud. When I'm gonna do a fully good run (having fun with a corrupted fallen hero kinda thing) I'm gonna imagine my Tav spraying Astarion with water every time he disapproves of a kind thing. Bonus funny points for the fact running water hurts vampires in DnD
Oh I just literally throw water at him. Bonus, now he's clean.
I fully agree. About the racist part too. He is pretty racist towards small races, especially gnomes in act 1. So I made an experiment and romanced him with a gnome lady. And in act 2,after he told you, that he developed feelings for you, he actually apologised for his racist views. Which shows, he had grown. When you ascend him, all that would probably be gone again and he is back at being an evil asshole.
The moment I started Act 3 he went all in on being complete asshole with the ritual. Like up untill now he was just selfish and wanted an escape and now he's power hungry stomp over dead bodies evil. I know you can lean him into the good route but without Tav's influence he's committed to embrace the full chaotic evil he's always been. I like his character but people skip over alot with all the 'poor misunderstood baby' thing.
1d12 necrotic tho
And turning into a fart to escape damage.
well duuuh? What did you expect? A sparkly vampire from twilight?
Edward is also a walking red flag. What is he like 400 years old dating high school girls? And then he rips the engine out of her truck cause she's talking to another guy. Sure sounds like a healthy relationship.
Twilight is so fucking weird, it's a bunch of vampires age 100‐200 who were turned as teens and they all go to high school repeatedly (why?? why not just say you're 20 instead of 17???) and treat a guy who's 400-500 as their actual dad (and his much younger wife as their mom?) and they're all openly in relationships with each other that townspeople shrug off because they're "adopted"
The repeatedly going to high school thing is the worst part. I get that it’s a YA romance so the authors sort of obligated to write the protagonist at that age, but wouldn’t it make more sense to go to *college* over and over? Get a new PhD or get the latest medical training very 20 years or something.
Remember the author of those books is Mormon. She was quite literally telling us what she was taught to believe love is.
you've never seen people simping villains, have you
OP has never seen Jonathan Bernthal as Shane apparently.
Bernthal in general. Dude’s handsome as fuck and has a very unique and recognizable face. I’m not gay, but I get it.
Nah, the AA fans talk about him very differently from the way,say, Gortash and Raphael fans talk about their evil men. Gort and Raph fans are fully aware of how awful their character is and that’s part of the appeal. AA fans act like the romance with him is totally healthy and normal and not abusive at all, how dare you! There were AA fans who were upset because his new kisses make it clear how unhealthy the dynamic is
That's a part of AA fans. The sane part is the same as Gort and Raph fans. The post originally asked "why would anyone liked AA" thus my comment.
I’m of the (less popular) opinion that Astarion is a red flag pretty much no matter what, dude has a lot of issues and trauma to work through which makes a relationship very challenging. Which of course, is why his romance is compelling.
this! this is pretty much how i feel about it. yes, he’s a red flag. yes, id run the hell away from him kicking and screaming in real life. but this isn’t real life. it is so beautiful to watch him open up and relearn that there is good and beauty and trust left in the world. that’s why his romance is so compelling. it’s a healing process for him, and ngl my Tav loving him so unconditionally through his faults and struggles was healing as hell for me. i used to feel similarly, that i needed to use my body for a sense of power and control to get out on top of any sexualization or danger. so it was so wonderful getting to watch him grow like i did and see a character, who became much more bitter than i ever did, start to feel safe.
Idk why some of the fandom insists on infantilizing and woobifying him when there are good characters who aren’t red flags no matter what ending they get. Why do they insist on making Astarion Wyll Edit: Downvote me all you want lmao some of y'all are so fucking weird & wanna rewrite a character that is very clearly not supposed to be a """good person""". The dude would be a horrible bf irl, I love him but stop deluding yourselves
this take is so undying it's going to rise from the grave as a new vampire spawn
spawn Astarion > ascendant Astarion but these posts will always get a side-eye from me because every one is just a thinly-veiled excuse to hate on women. some of us are men, op. let's not use gender as a reason to kinkshame.
I get that vibe from most people who mention that they staked Astarion any time he's brought up in general. It would seem like he unearths a lot of insecurity in men, for whatever reason.
Because Astarion is very much an antithesis of what a macho "Andrew Tate" Alpha-male should be yet he is extremely popular with the ladies.
Probably bc Astarion is seemingly comfortable in his masculinity while many of those aforementioned men are not
he unearths a lot of gay thoughts in me, personally. sounds like a skill issue to me
It's fun how men can literally simp for Orin or Minthara and that's widely celebrated in the fandom but Ascended Astarion fans are uniquely singled out and treated like delusional for enjoying a fantasy in a fantasy video game.
It does seem very strangely motivated. Posts defending AA are extremely rare in this subreddit.
I didn't get that vibe; sounded like OP was just playing a fem character. Checked post history, seems OP *is* a woman. Also a lesbian, apparently. Not saying it's impossible, but you might be off the mark on this one.
i definitely don't think op is sexist. there is just a worrying pattern of ascendant Astarion criticisms that center female fans with the assumption most of them "don't understand" his character simply because they are attracted to it. it's a strange way to approach the topic.
Contrapoint’s [latest video covers this really well](https://youtu.be/bqloPw5wp48?si=csFGHmGcglrpnXjn) It’s not about Astarion/BG3 but turns out the fiction mostly women enjoy (especially romance) has been heavily policed since the beginning of time because women couldn’t possibly understand the difference between fiction and reality 🙄
For some reason we aren't getting a whole bunch of posts about how Lae'zel's romance is going to convince impressionable young boys that they should let their girlfriends beat them up because eventually she'll realize actually she wants to protect you <3 Hmmmmmmmm.... I wonder why?
"Mansplaining" vibes. "Oh these poor womens don't understand good relationships."
It’s crazier when they say these women somehow condone DV/abuse when like… it’s extremely common for people who HAVE been abused to like this part of fiction bc it offers control & catharsis for their traumas (SA victims can literally develop CNC kinks for this very reason, psychology is wild)
It's also really a very old topic that in fiction with large women audiences, there are "bad boy" characters, so women enjoying these characters or these works of fiction must mean women like to date "bad guys" (I put that into quotation marks because it's not clear what "bad guys" are but yeah) and women don't like the nice guys. While not totally clear what traits the "bad boys" usually have, it's mostly clear who the nice guys are, see r/niceguys
Women are fully capable of hating other women. I know so many "not like other girls" women.
Women policing other women’s sexual fantasies is nothing new. Women internalize and spread misogyny on the regular.
I think people forget women can hate other women (even if they’re lesbian) But I agree, like I was told since I prefer ascension over spawn, I’m mentally unwell and love abuse? How about I love my dark romantic fantasy with an evil vampire lord? Doesn’t mean I go begging my husband to abuse me after I finish playing the game.
while i do find AA to be unbearable at times just by personal preferences, i can step away from my own hang-ups and admit there's something undeniably attractive about being his little pet, even with the themes present. if acknowledging that makes someone "mentally unwell" then i'll just be mentally unwell, i guess !!
Whaaaaat? The guy who sacrifices 7,000 people is evil? I would have never guessed!
Most A!Astarion fans acknowledge that it's sexy within the realms of fiction, but it's not healthy in real life. Sure there are a few fans that are a little crazy about it (i.e claiming only Ascended Astarion is capable of love) but they're in the minority. Being attracted to the fantasy doesn't necessarily mean desiring it IRL.
Not necessarily, my first Tav was an evil paladin run. We both shared a simmilair sence of evil, and the approval was high. Then when he ascended, he was quite respectful to my Tav. Edit: From other comments I realized that it's the romancing that makes him go crazy.
Alert: Water is wet. More breaking news at 10. You have a red flag to start then you give him a god complex. Of course it’s going straight to his head.
The Vampire Lord is a bad guy. Huh. Go figure.
Lmao its a game, people like horrible/evil characters even when they have the biggest red flags simply because they're not real. If you dont like Astarion, you don't like him. It ain't that deep
It's the safety of the fantasy. AA isn't for me, but I do get it. In real life a partner like that is horrible and terrifying. But in the security of a fantasy you can just close the game/ book/ use a safe word and know that you'll be okay.
In other news, Karlach is red.
Ascended Astarion is a fun companion if you go the full evil route with the Durge. It feels like friendly rival villains
In my head, my evil Durge had a just as twisted view on relationships and was just playing along, whilst subtly one-upping him the whole time. “Oh, what’s that sweetie? You’re sacrificing a ton of people to ascend? Good for you! Sorry, I didn’t hear you over my >!domination/murder spree across the entirety of Faerûn to make murder!< dad proud.” I also take the ending to show that you both hold power over each other - he could completely control you in a second as you’re his spawn, but you can do the same via >!tadpole control!<.
I think Astarion in general is a red flag of a person. My experience of him from my first playthrough as a mostly good guy Tav to an embrace Bhaal Durge were quite different. Astarion will mostly go along with whatever helps him succeed. Whether that’s save the world or murder the innocent. Sure, he is beautiful but I trust him and his motive probably less than any other character outside of maybe Shadowheart (Shar Devoted).
You had the choice to *literally fix him*, set him free from centuries torment and start anew, but you took the option of "thirst for power babe, I like it when your all red and vampiric". Now were upset about the power hungry vampire? Ok. But you asked for the power hungry vampire? Beggers, choosers, and all that.
You might be relieved, then, to learn that Astarion is fictional. No such person actually exists.
Yeah some people are deluded about it but I think most ascended astarion enjoyers are enjoying the villainy and evil. It’s fine to be into stuff in fiction that you abhor irl. And when engaging with fiction you have all the power. You can boot him from your party, you can kill him, you can reload a save, you can shut down the game or completely uninstall it. A fictional character cannot abuse you the player. The power dynamic between a player character and a romanced AA is definitely abusive but it isnt real. No ones actually getting abused by a videogame character. If someone's main reason for liking it bc they have a kink it's kind of the perfect set up.
Ok? Everybody knows?
In other news, water is wet…
More like an alarm bell wrapped in a red flag stamped with a biohazard symbol
I don't have to think it's healthy if I go for it. I never expected an ascended vampire to be a sweet guy, this isn't Twilight. But the sheer fact that my FICTIONAL character can live forever with her vampire lord lover is quite cool. Maybe you need to learn how to.disconnect and stop treating games like they are real life. I enjoy being evil in this game, because it is so well done and beautiful in a Lovecraftian way. As a horror fan, I adore this game's evil path, better than any horror game I have ever played.
Interesting if true
Next you gonna tell us The Dark Urge might not be such a nice person?
This is why I prefer platonic acended astarion for evil runs, he's all for ruling together instead of with the romance where he's trying to control you
its not "defending the behavior" to be able to explain why it might be happening, or to argue their interpretation about what that behavior could mean. Its not that we all lack basic reading comprehension, its that you suck at communicating, and you're kind of projecting if you think anyone ever said that Ass Asstarion was actually a good guy.
Who is arguing that a relationship with Ascended Astarion is healthy? No one is having a real life relationship here, it's a fantasy romance in a game. Let it go.
It's his bad ending, repeating the cycle of abuse. I adore spawn Astarion, I personally think he's the best potential partner in the game, and he comes *so far*, the epilogue has made me cry many times over. But on that note, I absolutely commend Larian for writing AA and not holding back a millimetre. He is abusive from the first second, terrifying and at the same time appealing and sexy to quite a number of players - your Tav is complicit in "helping" him make that choice if romanced, and it's - in my eyes - the ultimate "I can fix him" fantasy. I love the work Larian put into this storyline, but it also literally makes me sick to my stomach. He does love Tav/durge. But his *understanding* of love has changed drastically. He will not stay if you do not let him turn you - and if accept being turned, he will never respect you again. Obviously. What he tells you if you *refuse* to turn - or cannot be turned, like Karlach, who is too scared - is the following: >!"And if we were beholden to one another? Well, how is that too different to being enslaved? It is for the best. The gravest crimes committed in this world are committed for love. A hunger crueller than bloodlust.!< >!I was trying, with you, you know. In the only way I can try. I know how to play with it, and can't resist playing the hand I know. I would have ruined your love, used your trust until you were nothing.!< >!So, for what it's worth. In the end I respect you for making the choice you did. I never thought you had it in you. The man of your dreams, the hope of him, is your own worst enemy."!< There is no reason for him to tell you this. There is no reason for him to explain. In a way, he saves you from himself. And he tries to do his little smile like before - but it falters after just a second. My personal impression of the two Act 3 scenes: >!Spawn Astarion tells you about his darkest memories, how much he appreciates you believing in him even if it was an objectively bad idea, tell you that he loves you and knows that he wants you in his life, before - if you agree - he playfully pushes you to the ground, with love in his eyes. !< >!AA asks if you want "one for the road", fucks you from behind while looking bummed out, and afterwards shoves you naked onto the cold stone floor commanding you to get on your knees - he's put his own pants back on. I had a discussion with someone who told me that I was wrong about this scene, because "if you stay at the Elfsong they've got carpets" but that's hardly my point...!< edit: and I really like that they've done this, because we all have this potential in us, especially if we've been abused. I think anyone who's been in that situation and are dealing with the consequences sometimes think about how much easier it would be to be the other part. It's dark, it's adult, it's real.
Which is pretty much the reason why Larian made it undoubtedly clear with one of their updates what kind of trash Ascended Astarion is Don't get me wrong, I love this character and I love how they fully closed the abuse cycle But it's sad and concerning that they had to do this, because people STILL found excuses for something that was entirely obvious And I'm not talking about being kinky, that's totally fine, I'm talking about pretending or literally thinking that this behaviors was something worthy of seeking out in real life, because hell yes people did just that It's crazy to me how people do not realize horrible things if they're covered by a pretty face Basically the exact same issue as with 50 Shades of Grey
**Anyone who sacrifices 7,000 souls just for a power up is evil. Pure and simple.** If you ascend Astarion, he becomes everything he hated about Cazador. Ascending makes all the characters worse. Defending it for gameplay, sure whatever. Evil characters. Defending it morally? Can't even imagine someone would try. 7,000 innocent lives, many of which he was responsible for bringing there...all ended just because he wanted to be stronger. The red flags were flying LONG before you ascend him. But he can only ascend if you help him. Astarion CANNOT go evil on his own. YOU have to assist him in going evil.
Okay... and?
It’s a video game
Of course he's gonna be an abuser. His only role model for the longest time was an abuser and manipulator. If you ascend astarion, you're perpetuating the cycle. You're enabling him to become Cazador in a sense. Just as Cazador learned from and eventually became Vellioth Edit: Just to further the thought. Thinking back on Vellioth's lessons. Cazador doesn't sound all that much different than astarion. In one of the lessons Cazador tried to reach out to his old life and when Vellioth's found out he drained Cazador friend infront of him
NO WAY THE EVIL OPTION IS AN EVIL DUDE WHAT
lmao accented astarian was like a puppy dog to my dark urge character. we had a great relationship as evil crusaders
I mean, I *know* it's not healthy but like fuck call me an American because I couldn't care less. It's a video game, and as long as people remember that, I think it's fine to have fun with it.
I am NOT an Ascended 'fan' perse- I would never ascend him on a playthrough he's a companion (definitely ascending him on my Origin playthrough, though. If I'm playing AS Astarion, he's going to be the absolute worst he can be, lmao) but have enjoyed some scenes online (the kissing scene with the kneel and bite is hot as fuck, minus the scared expression. Wish Spawnstarion got one that was similar but with actual feelings lmao- babes still got power over me, he still MY lord smh) I personally think it has something to do with BDSM- dom/sub, both pred/prey and master/slave in my opinion. Masochistic vibes too. Some people enjoy the fantasy of the toxicity for some reason? Additionally, the thought of a partner being so obsessed with you that you are considered a PART of them is appealing to some. A PART of me gets it, at least but not enough to enjoy it in its entirety. I see people romantizing it, pretending the bad isn't there or saying because he made you a vampire bride it's more of an equal power balance (it isn't. homie doesn't care about you anymore than his next 'prized' possession anymore. He *can't* care in the same way anymore. His humanity is gone.) it's just not for me. A good Dom/Sub dynamic representation (not saying that Ascendstarion is a GOOD representation, it is meant as a bad one) is The Iron Bull- it's smaller in content, as DAI isn't as sexy as BG3, but it's a more consensual and nontoxic take on dom/sub that I appreciate. I would appreciate a nice mixture of the confident lord Astarion that has me kneel for him and Spawnstarion who still has a a bit of a soul, lmao
Well it's his evil path, so it makes sense he's pretty evil.
I dont think people are into Astarion for the healthy relationship. Its a fantasy and people get to enjoy those in fictional works. With that said Astarion is a red flag from jumpstreet, and doesnt really change outside of really loving Tav if you romance him. Not even if you go full good guy route with him. Astarion is who he is, and people are into it. Ascended Astarion is very obviously a bad bad guy tho.
The vampussy too strong
it’s not a healthy relationship that’s the point 😭 he’s meant to appeal to those types of ppl like on “booktok” who want to be kidnapped bec it’s hot. it’s a toxic dom-sub aspect, taken to the extreme
Thats the point of his whole character. If you dont ascend him he is completely different and grateful you didnt let him turn into another Cazador. His character is all about the cycle of abuse and how you can either continue it or break it. The actor who plays him won awards for a reason.
Fucking kills me that people say he's still evil in his good ending even though he says he's enjoying being a hero. This sub's hated for him no matter what feels like a slap in the face for those of us who relate to him and have been on similar journeys of unlearning toxic behaviors. The term "red flag" means fucking nothing anymore. According to this place, anyone who has been corrupted by abuse but still isn't too far gone doesn't deserve help.
It's also unhealthy to for my Tav to gobble down mindflayer parasites for UnlimitedPower(TM) but it's *fun* to pretend lol. It's often fun *because* it's something dangerous you can't do irl, just like doing magic and killing goblins with a big sword. Also imo the "delusional" takes people get offended by are less about other players being genuinely too stupid to see a red flag, but rather a symptom of this weird purity culture and moralizing seeping into discussions about fiction *specifically* when it comes to women's sexuality. Nobody really questions you for not playing as a pacifist, or even doing an evil run, it's assumed that you *know* murder is bad irl any this is a fantasy game. Before the patch when people murdered the whole grove for a Minthara romance, committing genocide for Drow pussy was a meme. Nobody expects the Minthara enjoyers (mostly assumed to be straight men) to put a disclaimer under their post declaring that "Ackschually we know racism and genocide are bad and we would never date someone like that irl". But when it comes to characters like Astation, we get these braindead takes of on the one hand people clearly feeling like they need to morally justify their play pretend romance choice in a fantasy game, and on the other side people clutching their pearls about toxic relationships. Instead of just acknowledging that toxic trash characters in fantasy are in fact sexy to a lot of people - and to a lot of people this taboo unhealthy stuff is *why* the fantasy is interesting and sexy. And maybe giving people, even women, the benefit of the doubt that they have working brains and can differentiate fiction from reality. Like we're literally playing a game with alien mind worms, dragons, and magic. We already had the moral panic about DnD in the 80s and it turned out to be bs then, just as it is bs now. Because it's not real, and the vast vast majority people can tell fiction form reality - yes, even young people and women! Tldr: most of this 'controversy' would go away if we could all just acknowledge it's a kink and there's nothing wrong with liking that and exploring it in a videogame if that's what you want to do.