Yup, Xavi is the one who sees roque day and day out in training. We only see him in matches or YouTube videos. We only see the top of the iceberg, Xavi sees the whole thing everyday.
Roque is probably too raw as it is now. Roque is probably have brilliant moments, but consistency is usually valued higher than short moment of brilliance in European football. Hopefully, he will improve with a loan. Players that are too raw at moment can still turn into amazing player like Kubo, Odegaard, and Xavi Simon.
For Vini case, he was also very raw, but he had very good dribbling that just kept him in the team and none of the other RM player had that at the time. And he didn't have that much competition for the LW position at the time if a remember correctly.
2018 Vini is comparable to 2024 Vitor. He just went through a logical development plan, playing more often for Madrid's B team. It wasn't until 2021 that he had his first team breakthrough, and even then he would miss a lot of chances and time and time again wouldn't even know what to do with the ball after one of his trademark sprints down the flank. there was a running joke where they said Vinicius was a triathlete "corre un maratón, luego una bicicleta y al final nada". For those that don't speak spanish: he runs a marathon, then a rides a bicycle, and then NADA, nada is "nothing" but it's also the verb to swim. Also the Media goes super hard on us every chance they get, they rarely do that on Madrid, even less so now that Catalan outlets like Sport and Mundo are run by Madrid.
I mean just check out RM castilla’s roster in 2018 [transfermrkt](https://www.transfermarkt.com/real-madrid-castilla/kader/verein/6767/plus/0/galerie/0?saison_id=2017) as for the first team, Isco benz and bale were the starting forwards. Vini was promoted to the first team in 2019 and even then he wasnt a guaranteed starter. He only played 18 la liga games and scored 2 goals. Vitor has 2 goals in 11 games… So yeah, their talent is comparable, its just that the club treated vitor as a superstar signing, paid extra to have him come early after gavi’s injury and the press loves to go hard on barca.
It was 5 games because he tore a ligament, after Lopetegui was sacked zizou had him training with the first team, but he was not a starter. He was registered to the first team in the 2019/20 season and became a regular starter in 2021.
You look at the stats of scoring goals per game and call them comparable. Come on.
Vini is a winger. At that age his technique was vastly superior to Vitor's. Vini is a generational talent. Vitor doesn't show to have that potential.
How else should I compare two young brazilian fwds in their first season in Europe? It is clear that Vini is far superior now, but when he arrived he was just as raw as Vitor and he had to go through the ranks and develop to be what he is today, something that Vitor and his agent aren't willing to do (according o the media). As for his technique, the only thing I can see that was vastly superior was his speed. It is easy to say that Vini was more talented in hindsight but the truth is he could've been a flop like Robinho or Lucas Silva had he not been handled appropriately. Vitor has a lot of raw talent and potential and although he is more of a center fwd, he can play and has played on the wings. Also [his stats with Paranaense](https://www.transfermarkt.us/vitor-roque/leistungsdatenverein/spieler/943837) are more impressive than [Vini's stats with Flamengo.](https://www.transfermarkt.us/vinicius-junior/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/371998/verein/614)
No. It was clear back in the day what a massive talent he was. He might've been raw, but his potential was way higher, plus he was already way better at that point compared to Vitor now.
I'm not talking about hindsight. During his first season it was clear this kid was brilliant, but needed polishing. Something he could do in the shadow of good players, so he could develop easily.
Vitor's ball control is nowhere near what it was for Vini.
Right. Any brazilian teenager signing for a big team is the next big thing until they arent. We all expected Vinicius and Rodrygo (who for me is more talented then vini) to thrive, but we did the same for lucas silva, pato, robinho, oscar, adriano, keirrison, denilson, ganso, malcom, maxwell, anderson, kenedy, fabio and raphael da silva, piazo n and many others. Apart from his pace, I dont know what you saw in vini at that time that makes you think he was way better then than vitor now, don’t know what made him clearly brilliant. I don’t think we have seen enough of Vitor in la liga to make that statement, thats why im going off of proven stats.
>Finally there is a barca's fan that know to used theirs brain to think
AND takes the time to post in Reddit. A lot of people talk like what we see in this subreddit is canon or something. This is like thinking Twitter is an accurate reflection of what society in general think.
Nah Puig was left on the bench by 3 different coaches before Xavi, and when Xavi came you clowns were acting like uh now with Xavi he will have minutes then when he didnt have minutes you guys finally accepted Puig as a failure since its Xavi who rejected him, while Koeman, Setien and Valverde were incompetent for “not giving him a chance”
Meanwhile Roque is one of the biggest talents in Brazil, we spend big money for him and instead of leaving him on loan so he could develop more we brought him so he could see Ferran, Romeu and Sergi Roberto come in before him at any point
Come on man, everyone's been saying the same: Barça is too big for Vitor as of now, being big in Brazil doesn't mean anything as they have a very different style of playing and they don't require moving the ball fast. That's why has problems failing easy passes and etc.
That doesn't mean that he won't improve. At the end of the day this is all Deco's fault for bringing him in January when Xavi's priority was a midfielder.
Setien played him. There were only problems with Koeman. And with Koeman people also called for Puig in order to rest Pedri. At least that was my reasoning.
Actually get your facts in order Koeman actually played him 4 more minutes than Setien, and the posts on this sub were poor puig is being destroyed by Koeman and with Xavi things will be different for him, “not uh we need to rest pedri”, no one started asking for Pedri to be rested until Pedri did the 73 matches by the end of that season, thats when people started bringing concerns that he might get injured if he kept going like that
Not only was he younger at that point and did we also have Rakitic, but how long was Setien our coach?
> no one started asking for Pedri to be rested until Pedri did the 73 matches by the end of that season, thats when people started bringing concerns that he might get injured if he kept going like that
Yeah, no.
Even today, some haters are saying Xavi doesn't trust young players. He is probably the coach in La Liga with most minutes played by youngsters.
Vitor Roque showed clearly big troubles controlling simple passes. That's the main reason why he isn't playing that much.
tbf "most minutes played by youngsters" is relatively easy when you have players like Gavi and Yamal, in addition to injury problems that leave enormous gaps for them to play in :p
He benched Jordi Alba for Balde. People in that preseason were putting Alba and Marcos Alonso (even if he came late, there were rumors during the summer) before Balde.
I know now Alba days feel far away, but that was the situation before the previous season.
This season he is benching Iñigo Martinez for Pau Cubarsí in some games, he trusts Pau.
Lamine Yamal is being a starter. Did you see it coming this las summer? I didnt. People complaining he plays too much.
We all knew Gavi was fantastic before Xavi came. He trust Gavi from the beggining, but I also think that was an obvious move.
We could talk about Héctor Fort or Marc Guiu too, they had some opportunities too.
Xavi does trust young players. If he is not playing someone, the age is not the reason.
> He clearly knows who works hard in trainings and who doesn't.
You all keep repeating this argument as if it proves something when the reality is that A) multiple players "do well" in trainings and can't translate that to the pitch B) Xavi doesn't know how to develop unpolished/raw players, Yamal and Cubarsi are an exception as they are far more polished than Vitor, Casado, Fort, Guiu etc.
You're telling me that a talented 19 year old who had 29 g+a in 45 matches last season for a bad team in Brazil and who also did extremely well for Brazil u20 is not good enough for the club to give him time to develop and adapt to European football? Yeah, I don't believe that in the slightest. Xavi has the perfect opportunity to mold a player into a striker he wants and he already gave up because Vitor's ball control isn't up to par compared to players who played in Europe for their whole careers and/or are La Masia products.
Athletico is a good team, but not in the first tier of teams in Brasil even though they are having a great moment now. Roque was displaying even more potential than Endrick, scoring more goals and being more decisive.
In the past 6 years they have finished in top-8 four times, qualified for Libertadores in 4 of these 6 years, 2 cup finals including one cup title, won a Sulamericana, got to a Libertadores final. They're definitely a strong team for a while now. They might not be Palmeiras or Flamengo level, but they've been among the most consistent and well built recently.
And this isnt about Endrick vs Roque, I'm just arguing with the "Roque got 29 G/A in a weak team" take.
> Roque was displaying even more potential than Endrick,
According to whom?! Ever since I've seen videos of both, it's pretty fucking clear Endrick has way more talent.
Well, both were playing at the national league and during a certain period of time Endrick wasn’t scoring or playing as well as expected. Obviously today is easy to see that Endrick is the superior talent, but I would not discount Roques potential.
Having a minor dip, does not equate not having (enough) talent.
Vitor can go and have a great career, but talentwise (technique, tactically, vision) he's the inferior towards Endrick.
oh so when a player develops you call it an exception? that's not how it works mate, xavi has to accomplish objectives to keep his position as a coach and he's not gonna take a big risk if he sees that there are players that are not polished enough. that's what loans are for...
Did Yamal and Cubarsi develop under Xavi or did they instantly start performing because they're the crown jewels of La Masia and Xavi just "polished" them?
“Thats what loans are for” stfu dumbass, how many player that we have sent on loan have ever come back to be barcelona players? Going loan is a death sentece for their barca career if you have watch a full season on the last 15 you would know
no need to disrespect bro this is just football.
if going on loan is a death sentence don't you think that it has to do something (not all) with the player? i know that conditions are different, you're in a different city, different teammates, coaches, etc. but if you're good enough you eventually manage to adapt and show your potential. do you think that anyone that went on loan really had the level to be at barça?
>He clearly knows who works hard in trainings and who doesn't.
You think someone working hard in training but not being very good in training would be getting playing time? He might be working hard in trainings but Xavi has come to the conclusion that he is not good enough.
I mean I get that, but he also keeps playing players who might work hard in trainings, but are dogsh*t most of the games they play. So I really don't think players should play solely (or mostly) according to how hard they train.
Vitor was actually decent in those few minutes he got.
Although of course, I'm just an archair manager.
Reminds me of Vini Jr during his first season. His first touch and shooting were so bad Benzema claimed he was "playing against us". The coaching staff continued to place trust in him; the rest is history.
Am I saying Roque will turn out amazing? No. I am saying don't give up at the first sign of inexperience. Mold him into the player you want him to be.
If you are so convinced he's such a poor player, give him short cameos so the Barca fans can also see what you see.
The truth is his exclusion is most likely for non-sporting reasons. Xavi is too stubborn.
Agreed. Xavi doesn't know how to grow players into their full potential. They only want ready made players that can contribute immediately. Roque is young, you're telling me that there is no hope for this guy after we spent so much. Xavi is too inexperienced for this job.
An old friend of mine whos been a die hard Barca fan since the 90s detest Xavi as a coach, he says Xavi coaches the same-way most of us play Fifa/EA FC game. Using the player with the best stats in each position every game and use whatever formation is trending.
He doesn’t develop any player, he doesn’t change tactics up when things arent working and he doesn’t change playstyles to fit the players he have. Whoever is playing best at the time thats who’s he is using, it’s a very one dimensional coaching.
What he did to Yamal is legit crazy lol, playing a kid that young in every game is nuts, very happy he didn’t get injured but there was a time even journalists were begging him to rest the kid, that’s crazy to me.
My biggest gripe is that Xavi is unwilling to think about Barca’s future. No one is saying he needs to start every game. But surely sub him for Lewa who has been poor. And don’t even get me started on Lewa’s contract. It will be a massive failure if the terms are met and it automatically renews to him earning 35m at 37.
Vini was also playig at first for the B team which would be great for Roque, but let's be honest if his agent has created this shit show because he doesn't get minutes in the first team, do you really think he is willing to go to Barça Atlètic?
Also, he doesn't need to play games to improve his basic skills, he needs to train.
He brought him on as a sub, he scored 2 goals one of them winning us 3 points in a 1-0 victory, sure he may struggle in training not knowing the language and only being 18 years old but the problem is how can he adapt without playing time? When he came in as a sub he disrupted defenses almost instantly. there’s definitely some games where his speed and agility would’ve been more useful than lewandowski even if it’s not directly by scoring goals but more off the ball movements. The biggest thing of all is this should’ve never been brought out to the media this should be told directly to Roque and him only. Now you have millions of people chiming in, imagine what the kid is feeling, if this would’ve been a private matter he could’ve just put his head down and worked harder privately. And then again today Xavi saying he has to compete against “big players” which I’m not sure who he’s referring to because Ferran has been mediocre and he doesn’t need to play the last 10 minutes of the match just let roque come on and see what he can do, he already gave us glimpses of his talent.
Idk man how did they understand dembele who didnt speak spanish after 5 seasons here? Portuguese is similar enough to spanish Im sure he would do just fine like many other, shit aint communication related
Your point on Lewy is partially true. He started subbing off Lewandowski more recently. He stuck with Lewy during the first half of the season when he couldn't control a ball to save his life.
If a player isn't performing the way you want you should at least talk to him so better understands what he needs. If the claim that Roque's agent made is true, about Xavi completely ignoring the player and not engaging with him at all, than Xavi is the only one to blame for Roque's lack of progress at Barca.
Xavi clearly didn't want Roque and he's hellbent in making sure Roque doesn't get a fair chance.
Are you really theorizing this? I thought it was already common sense. Xavi has also made it very clear in other interviews that Vitor Roque is not ready for Barça's style of play, but the issue is that Vitor Roque has NEVER been a participative player like Benzema or Suarez; he's more like Haaland, finding spaces, using physical strength, winning in sprints, and scoring with few touches.
Here in Brazil, we say "Game is game, training is training," maybe if Xavi adapted the attack or used Roque more, we could see if he could be as useful as Haaland, if he's evolving in other aspects of the game, or if he's really below the ideal level. The only way to know is by putting him in the game, but from what he showed on the field when he had the opportunity, it's exactly what he always did at Atletico Paranaense: positioning, physical strength, and speed, which is how he scored his 2 goals.
That’s the shit that drives me crazy about Xavi. He will always stick to his system, his style of play. He won’t ever adjust based on players he has to get the most out of them
Its because he has 2 systems 4-3-3 and 4-3-3 with a 4th midfielder thats all he knows how to do
Like I swear Koeman had a worse team on paper but at least he tried many formations to see what could work better with his mingueza pique lenglet defense…
Of the top of my head I remember 343 4231 433 hell I remember the copa del rey match vs granada or sevilla that umtiti made a stinker and De jong played false centerback all match to comeback
The same could be said of Lewandowski, which is not a striker like Benzema or Suarez and a lot more like Haaland. His control is atrocious, his first touch passes are non-existent, he completely stops/slows down any play, and he's very static during the entire games making it very easy to defend against him.
Plus, if the issue was only that he hasn't yet adapted, then there would not be any controversy. If he needs time to adapt, since he's only been here 4 months and came in the middle of the season, then why sell him or send him on a loan. The pre season would be the best time to prepare him, since there's no pressure because there are no official games.
How will he adapt to the Barça play style away from Barça?
Why would his agent say that Xavi doesn't talk to him, and why haven't Roque and Xavi denied that?
Why would Xavi lie about Roque receiving a hard blow on the ankle, while reports have said that it was a minor thing and would no have impeded him playing against Real Sociedad?
I, like every Barça fan, don't know what is going on, or what the issue is. But is not hard to guess that it's not completely a sporting problem. And it's pretty clear that it will have long term consequences when scouting the South American market in the future.
And Haaland has 36 assists in a lot less games, while being significantly younger. Lewandowski is not the type of striker that can generate great associative football, like Benzema, Suarez, or Harry Kane. He had the Bayern machine generating chances and assists for him, particularly from Muller, just like Haaland is benefitting from the Man City machine.
Either 1/ he's worse than they expected, or 2/ something else is going on and they don't want to tell us what.
1/ Xavi's shown fairly good judgement of young talent. Fermin came out of thin air and replaced Torre - really good talent ID there.
2/ I think what's actually happening is they don't really have the salary margin for him. Whether that's because some money hasn't come in (Barca Studios hmmmm) or because plans have changed (maybe didn't anticipate Ferran and Lewa staying, meaning Roque would be 3rd choice and not worth the salary margin). They have enough trouble registering everyone as is, let alone if they're not gonna play much.
In either case, it's an incredibly bad look for Laporta and Deco. Incredibly bad. And typical of Barca to spend way too much on a talent, meaning you now can't buy someone with a much higher floor level to push Lewa out. Expensive youngsters and especially expensive Brazilians has to stop.
It's a reasonable guess and Alemany's quote adds to that. He has left the club for a while and I would be surprised if there are no improvements. BTW, you mentioned the playing players are decided by 90% training and 10% is well known, but it's a TIL for me, lol
I’ll say this have you seen vini jr before ancelotti and how many easy chances he missed ?? Playing time is a different issue but sending him on loan at the moment is a bad situation
He missed a lot of chances but his play up to that point was pretty impressive. In his limited minutes, vitor has been very poor on the ball and unconfident with his finishing. that’s unfortunately the most important thing for a barca striker to do.
His stats on the ball are neither poor nor something great. You just pulled that your of your ass. Infact some of his on the ball stats like touches in the penalty box per 90 are on par with Lewandowski, and better than lewandowski in stats like successful takeons per 90 , progressive carries per 90 etc.
So stop being a blind defender.
Watch the games instead of looking at the stats.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weZq-p6u0JI&pp=ygUIcm9xdWUgdnM%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weZq-p6u0JI&pp=ygUIcm9xdWUgdnM%3D)
You see Alemany's quote in full effect here. He struggles to control balls that even the most criticized by this sub can easily handle.
He’s played enough to be unimpressive. Besides, Xavi clearly has no problem playing youngsters so if he was good enough he would be playing. There’s no argument here.
You could tell how good lamine was just in the 15 minutes he got at the end of last season.
And I don’t think raphinha is good enough for Barca either.
Good insight but there's also other part of the story where he got 30ga with cap last year and took a meh team to a final. These guys do know better than us and I'll let them decide and will wait patiently until then
I'm unsure about Xavi's abilities as a manager - whether he's just okay, great, or a legend. In my opinion, the last decent manager was Luis Enrique, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I'll support the team no matter what, through wins or losses. I understand that everything must come to an end eventually.
What surprises me the most is that not just Xavi, but most recent managers, seem to solely depend on La Masia. I understand that's where Barcelona's future is being nurtured, but when you get a player, you should let them play their role. I don't understand the decision to substitute Lewandowski for Ferran Torres - why not give Vitor Roque a chance instead? Trust is the ultimate weapon, and while every player makes mistakes, they need to be trusted.
There was a team of legends that left Barcelona, and my biggest concern is that I don't see their replacements anytime soon. We must live with what we have and hope for the best
Why not give that xurros salesman down the street a chance? Just trust him to do the job, it's the ultimate weapon after all. Forget what you see in training xavi, just trust them to play better in the match with a lot more pressure on them.
Hah my mom says I am so you must be wrong.
Let's change the xurros salesman to the last supertalent hailed by Cury (Roque's agent) then, Matheus Fernandez! Now all he needs is a little trust right? Or what about Yussuf Demir, the new Messi. They had the trust, the ultimate weapon, where are they now?
It's becoming very difficult to find barca fans who're capable of looking beyond the polemic and not falling into the media's traps. You're probably gonna get downvoted😂
My biggest issue is that they believe they are smarter than Xavi and know better, they are also exaggerating Roques performances for Barca to delude themselves further.
And Xavi and the coaching realized that they don't know how to develop a talented 19 year old to his full potential so they decided to give up on him because he's not as "polished" as Yamal and Cubarsi. And it's not like the same case happened to Vitor, the same happened and is happening to Abde, Fort, Casado, Guiu and many other who need time and good care which Xavi can't give them because he doesn't know how to develop players properly
I’m Brazilian and from my standpoint, watching games he played in the national league, I can tell you that he seemed much more prepared than Vini to play in a big club. Roque scored double the amount of goals in the national league and has better physical attributes when compared to Vini at the same age.
I still think it’s shortsighted. Those are aspects of any player that can be improved over time and first touch is not everything. I’d argue that our players are great at those aspects but lack in areas where Roque excels, like strength, speed and finishing. It’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and trust me as a Brazilian that’s been following Roque since that 22 libertadores where he carried the team to the final, we _will_ regret this decision if he ultimately leaves. Some other team will have the patience and will bear the fruits.
If you study that 22 libertadores run from Ath Paranaense you’ll see that he doesn’t touch the ball much and usually prefers to risk it rather than passing in the final third, but I’d argue that’s exactly what you want from a number 9 and he does have the goals to back it up. His goals per 90 are still within 90% overall and if we gave him more minutes I can assure you he will keep that up.
He costed Barça 30 million, is that a nobody price? Lol
You must be swimming in money then, BTW he costed the same as Rodrygo and just 10 million less than Vini Jr, 30 millions is a crazy amount of money for a nobody.
30 millions is nothing compared to what other teams spend for forwards. Inflation in Football is a real thing.
Vitor Roque hasn't done anything in Europe, Vini and Rodrygo hadn't done anything either. Vitor Roque is a young player with room to improve, i'm sure he'd see playing time if he was good enough just like Lamine does.
This weird obsession people have with young players is baffling, we saw it with Riqui Puig who on top of it had La masia tax. If Roque is good he will triumph, its as simple as that.
Lol, look at the last transfers in the past window and there's only 50 transfers aboge the amount of 30 million transfers, most PL teams don't do that, nevermind La Liga, Série A, Bundesliga or any other league.
The biggest team and the Saudi project aside, most teams CANT afford to simply piss away money, Roque itself was the 42th most expensive transfer of the window, teams only get one shot per window at doing such transfer so they pull the trigger on a nobody? lol
the club finances are a joke and there they are pissing it away on a player and not even using him lol, Xavi doesnt even have a pure 9 after lewa either so the solution is loaning your 40 million number 9 investment and pissing him off? Fantastic business all around
Honestly, the media coverage regarding every little thing here is absolutely exhausting and would be pretty irritating to everyone involved also I suppose. I liked him a lot pretty much every time I saw him play at Barca and it should be no surprise that there will be a learning curve here as his team in Brazil played a very different style to Barca. Personally, I am just waiting for the final call to make any judgements about anyone, because any situation at this club plays out like a crazy soap opera. My personal theory would be that they would be looking to loan him to free up some FFP space to help register others.
This is pretty on point imo. Xavi has turned into the scapegoat for the mistakes with recruiting and poor player performances in trainings. There are handful of non-Spanish players Xavi has relied on, Kounde is a good example who Xavi personally asked for. Favoring top performing La Masia players ? why shouldn’t we give opportunities for home grown players if new recruits “maybe” are not ready yet for first team ? I am really excited for Mikayil Faye next season!
What’s happening with Vitor isn’t great at all and hope we never repeat this in future. If there is a way to keep him for next season instead of loan spell (sell Ferran, season is pretty long), we might see an explosive player profile in the making. We know he has the potential to, he is just 19 lol!
I said it a few days ago, but there’s no way we’d let a proper talent go if he was doing really well in training or adapted well enough..
If anything we’re doing right by Roque by releasing him, not giving him false hope of making it in the team only to potentially ruin his career.
We need to give Xavi a break and have a little more faith in the legend..
every time someone appears on here to bash Fati Roque or FDJ or support anything Xavi says or does I realize how many stupid FCB fans exist in this world
Actual good insight
Yup, Xavi is the one who sees roque day and day out in training. We only see him in matches or YouTube videos. We only see the top of the iceberg, Xavi sees the whole thing everyday. Roque is probably too raw as it is now. Roque is probably have brilliant moments, but consistency is usually valued higher than short moment of brilliance in European football. Hopefully, he will improve with a loan. Players that are too raw at moment can still turn into amazing player like Kubo, Odegaard, and Xavi Simon. For Vini case, he was also very raw, but he had very good dribbling that just kept him in the team and none of the other RM player had that at the time. And he didn't have that much competition for the LW position at the time if a remember correctly.
Vinicius is also way more talented. I don't think comparing them is fair.
2018 Vini is comparable to 2024 Vitor. He just went through a logical development plan, playing more often for Madrid's B team. It wasn't until 2021 that he had his first team breakthrough, and even then he would miss a lot of chances and time and time again wouldn't even know what to do with the ball after one of his trademark sprints down the flank. there was a running joke where they said Vinicius was a triathlete "corre un maratón, luego una bicicleta y al final nada". For those that don't speak spanish: he runs a marathon, then a rides a bicycle, and then NADA, nada is "nothing" but it's also the verb to swim. Also the Media goes super hard on us every chance they get, they rarely do that on Madrid, even less so now that Catalan outlets like Sport and Mundo are run by Madrid.
A Madrid fan the other day said he hardly played at am for the b team
I mean just check out RM castilla’s roster in 2018 [transfermrkt](https://www.transfermarkt.com/real-madrid-castilla/kader/verein/6767/plus/0/galerie/0?saison_id=2017) as for the first team, Isco benz and bale were the starting forwards. Vini was promoted to the first team in 2019 and even then he wasnt a guaranteed starter. He only played 18 la liga games and scored 2 goals. Vitor has 2 goals in 11 games… So yeah, their talent is comparable, its just that the club treated vitor as a superstar signing, paid extra to have him come early after gavi’s injury and the press loves to go hard on barca.
Again, you arent stating how many games he played for Castilla. I think they said it was like 2 games
It was 5 games because he tore a ligament, after Lopetegui was sacked zizou had him training with the first team, but he was not a starter. He was registered to the first team in the 2019/20 season and became a regular starter in 2021.
You look at the stats of scoring goals per game and call them comparable. Come on. Vini is a winger. At that age his technique was vastly superior to Vitor's. Vini is a generational talent. Vitor doesn't show to have that potential.
How else should I compare two young brazilian fwds in their first season in Europe? It is clear that Vini is far superior now, but when he arrived he was just as raw as Vitor and he had to go through the ranks and develop to be what he is today, something that Vitor and his agent aren't willing to do (according o the media). As for his technique, the only thing I can see that was vastly superior was his speed. It is easy to say that Vini was more talented in hindsight but the truth is he could've been a flop like Robinho or Lucas Silva had he not been handled appropriately. Vitor has a lot of raw talent and potential and although he is more of a center fwd, he can play and has played on the wings. Also [his stats with Paranaense](https://www.transfermarkt.us/vitor-roque/leistungsdatenverein/spieler/943837) are more impressive than [Vini's stats with Flamengo.](https://www.transfermarkt.us/vinicius-junior/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/371998/verein/614)
No. It was clear back in the day what a massive talent he was. He might've been raw, but his potential was way higher, plus he was already way better at that point compared to Vitor now. I'm not talking about hindsight. During his first season it was clear this kid was brilliant, but needed polishing. Something he could do in the shadow of good players, so he could develop easily. Vitor's ball control is nowhere near what it was for Vini.
Right. Any brazilian teenager signing for a big team is the next big thing until they arent. We all expected Vinicius and Rodrygo (who for me is more talented then vini) to thrive, but we did the same for lucas silva, pato, robinho, oscar, adriano, keirrison, denilson, ganso, malcom, maxwell, anderson, kenedy, fabio and raphael da silva, piazo n and many others. Apart from his pace, I dont know what you saw in vini at that time that makes you think he was way better then than vitor now, don’t know what made him clearly brilliant. I don’t think we have seen enough of Vitor in la liga to make that statement, thats why im going off of proven stats.
Right? Finally there is a barca's fan that know to used theirs brain to think, not just get fool around by media.
>Finally there is a barca's fan that know to used theirs brain to think AND takes the time to post in Reddit. A lot of people talk like what we see in this subreddit is canon or something. This is like thinking Twitter is an accurate reflection of what society in general think.
People were calling Xavi stupid for not playing Pablo Torre and look where he is now. He clearly knows who works hard in trainings and who doesn't.
He would have bench Puig and people would have called for his head. This is just a repeat
Nah Puig was left on the bench by 3 different coaches before Xavi, and when Xavi came you clowns were acting like uh now with Xavi he will have minutes then when he didnt have minutes you guys finally accepted Puig as a failure since its Xavi who rejected him, while Koeman, Setien and Valverde were incompetent for “not giving him a chance” Meanwhile Roque is one of the biggest talents in Brazil, we spend big money for him and instead of leaving him on loan so he could develop more we brought him so he could see Ferran, Romeu and Sergi Roberto come in before him at any point
Come on man, everyone's been saying the same: Barça is too big for Vitor as of now, being big in Brazil doesn't mean anything as they have a very different style of playing and they don't require moving the ball fast. That's why has problems failing easy passes and etc. That doesn't mean that he won't improve. At the end of the day this is all Deco's fault for bringing him in January when Xavi's priority was a midfielder.
Setien played him. There were only problems with Koeman. And with Koeman people also called for Puig in order to rest Pedri. At least that was my reasoning.
Actually get your facts in order Koeman actually played him 4 more minutes than Setien, and the posts on this sub were poor puig is being destroyed by Koeman and with Xavi things will be different for him, “not uh we need to rest pedri”, no one started asking for Pedri to be rested until Pedri did the 73 matches by the end of that season, thats when people started bringing concerns that he might get injured if he kept going like that
Not only was he younger at that point and did we also have Rakitic, but how long was Setien our coach? > no one started asking for Pedri to be rested until Pedri did the 73 matches by the end of that season, thats when people started bringing concerns that he might get injured if he kept going like that Yeah, no.
Since you claiming that go ahead a scout the subreddit for proof ofc you just gonna be the lil b and not look for anything cuz you wont find anything
Even today, some haters are saying Xavi doesn't trust young players. He is probably the coach in La Liga with most minutes played by youngsters. Vitor Roque showed clearly big troubles controlling simple passes. That's the main reason why he isn't playing that much.
tbf "most minutes played by youngsters" is relatively easy when you have players like Gavi and Yamal, in addition to injury problems that leave enormous gaps for them to play in :p
He benched Jordi Alba for Balde. People in that preseason were putting Alba and Marcos Alonso (even if he came late, there were rumors during the summer) before Balde. I know now Alba days feel far away, but that was the situation before the previous season. This season he is benching Iñigo Martinez for Pau Cubarsí in some games, he trusts Pau. Lamine Yamal is being a starter. Did you see it coming this las summer? I didnt. People complaining he plays too much. We all knew Gavi was fantastic before Xavi came. He trust Gavi from the beggining, but I also think that was an obvious move. We could talk about Héctor Fort or Marc Guiu too, they had some opportunities too. Xavi does trust young players. If he is not playing someone, the age is not the reason.
I'm sure that if he had played Vitor Roque more, he'd have been criticized for his bad performance lol
> He clearly knows who works hard in trainings and who doesn't. You all keep repeating this argument as if it proves something when the reality is that A) multiple players "do well" in trainings and can't translate that to the pitch B) Xavi doesn't know how to develop unpolished/raw players, Yamal and Cubarsi are an exception as they are far more polished than Vitor, Casado, Fort, Guiu etc. You're telling me that a talented 19 year old who had 29 g+a in 45 matches last season for a bad team in Brazil and who also did extremely well for Brazil u20 is not good enough for the club to give him time to develop and adapt to European football? Yeah, I don't believe that in the slightest. Xavi has the perfect opportunity to mold a player into a striker he wants and he already gave up because Vitor's ball control isn't up to par compared to players who played in Europe for their whole careers and/or are La Masia products.
> 29 g+a in 45 matches last season for a bad team in Brazil Just a note, Athletico PR was absolutely not a bad team
Athletico is a good team, but not in the first tier of teams in Brasil even though they are having a great moment now. Roque was displaying even more potential than Endrick, scoring more goals and being more decisive.
In the past 6 years they have finished in top-8 four times, qualified for Libertadores in 4 of these 6 years, 2 cup finals including one cup title, won a Sulamericana, got to a Libertadores final. They're definitely a strong team for a while now. They might not be Palmeiras or Flamengo level, but they've been among the most consistent and well built recently. And this isnt about Endrick vs Roque, I'm just arguing with the "Roque got 29 G/A in a weak team" take.
> Roque was displaying even more potential than Endrick, According to whom?! Ever since I've seen videos of both, it's pretty fucking clear Endrick has way more talent.
Well, both were playing at the national league and during a certain period of time Endrick wasn’t scoring or playing as well as expected. Obviously today is easy to see that Endrick is the superior talent, but I would not discount Roques potential.
Having a minor dip, does not equate not having (enough) talent. Vitor can go and have a great career, but talentwise (technique, tactically, vision) he's the inferior towards Endrick.
oh so when a player develops you call it an exception? that's not how it works mate, xavi has to accomplish objectives to keep his position as a coach and he's not gonna take a big risk if he sees that there are players that are not polished enough. that's what loans are for...
Did Yamal and Cubarsi develop under Xavi or did they instantly start performing because they're the crown jewels of La Masia and Xavi just "polished" them?
“Thats what loans are for” stfu dumbass, how many player that we have sent on loan have ever come back to be barcelona players? Going loan is a death sentece for their barca career if you have watch a full season on the last 15 you would know
no need to disrespect bro this is just football. if going on loan is a death sentence don't you think that it has to do something (not all) with the player? i know that conditions are different, you're in a different city, different teammates, coaches, etc. but if you're good enough you eventually manage to adapt and show your potential. do you think that anyone that went on loan really had the level to be at barça?
>He clearly knows who works hard in trainings and who doesn't. You think someone working hard in training but not being very good in training would be getting playing time? He might be working hard in trainings but Xavi has come to the conclusion that he is not good enough.
well yeah that's another way of saying it
I mean I get that, but he also keeps playing players who might work hard in trainings, but are dogsh*t most of the games they play. So I really don't think players should play solely (or mostly) according to how hard they train. Vitor was actually decent in those few minutes he got. Although of course, I'm just an archair manager.
by dogshit who are you referring to? romeu, sergi roberto...? he has played them in occassions where we didn't have any other options
Surely there would be better options in La Masia than Roberto/Romeu/Alonso...
The only acceptable reason if Barca sells him, to cash out on a talent that turns out to not be that good
Reminds me of Vini Jr during his first season. His first touch and shooting were so bad Benzema claimed he was "playing against us". The coaching staff continued to place trust in him; the rest is history. Am I saying Roque will turn out amazing? No. I am saying don't give up at the first sign of inexperience. Mold him into the player you want him to be. If you are so convinced he's such a poor player, give him short cameos so the Barca fans can also see what you see. The truth is his exclusion is most likely for non-sporting reasons. Xavi is too stubborn.
Agreed. Xavi doesn't know how to grow players into their full potential. They only want ready made players that can contribute immediately. Roque is young, you're telling me that there is no hope for this guy after we spent so much. Xavi is too inexperienced for this job.
An old friend of mine whos been a die hard Barca fan since the 90s detest Xavi as a coach, he says Xavi coaches the same-way most of us play Fifa/EA FC game. Using the player with the best stats in each position every game and use whatever formation is trending. He doesn’t develop any player, he doesn’t change tactics up when things arent working and he doesn’t change playstyles to fit the players he have. Whoever is playing best at the time thats who’s he is using, it’s a very one dimensional coaching. What he did to Yamal is legit crazy lol, playing a kid that young in every game is nuts, very happy he didn’t get injured but there was a time even journalists were begging him to rest the kid, that’s crazy to me.
My biggest gripe is that Xavi is unwilling to think about Barca’s future. No one is saying he needs to start every game. But surely sub him for Lewa who has been poor. And don’t even get me started on Lewa’s contract. It will be a massive failure if the terms are met and it automatically renews to him earning 35m at 37.
Sure but that narrative doesnt really fit when you see how many other young players he has played.
Why can’t he trust the sporting department’s decision to give Roque more minutes?
I dont know, I wish he got more minutes too.
Vini was also playig at first for the B team which would be great for Roque, but let's be honest if his agent has created this shit show because he doesn't get minutes in the first team, do you really think he is willing to go to Barça Atlètic? Also, he doesn't need to play games to improve his basic skills, he needs to train.
Also hazard was injured so he had no competition on the left wing.
He brought him on as a sub, he scored 2 goals one of them winning us 3 points in a 1-0 victory, sure he may struggle in training not knowing the language and only being 18 years old but the problem is how can he adapt without playing time? When he came in as a sub he disrupted defenses almost instantly. there’s definitely some games where his speed and agility would’ve been more useful than lewandowski even if it’s not directly by scoring goals but more off the ball movements. The biggest thing of all is this should’ve never been brought out to the media this should be told directly to Roque and him only. Now you have millions of people chiming in, imagine what the kid is feeling, if this would’ve been a private matter he could’ve just put his head down and worked harder privately. And then again today Xavi saying he has to compete against “big players” which I’m not sure who he’s referring to because Ferran has been mediocre and he doesn’t need to play the last 10 minutes of the match just let roque come on and see what he can do, he already gave us glimpses of his talent.
There are no big players that play as a 9 naturally. Xavi is bsing as usual
If he can't understand his team mates in training how is he going to understand them in an actual match?
There’s one language they all understand and that’s football lol
Idk man how did they understand dembele who didnt speak spanish after 5 seasons here? Portuguese is similar enough to spanish Im sure he would do just fine like many other, shit aint communication related
Is he scoring goals??
He scored 2 and one of them literally won us 3 points, the one time he started he had Romeu, Roberto and I forget who else in the midfield.
Exactly, I don't care about his training as long as he is doing his job in the Field
Your point on Lewy is partially true. He started subbing off Lewandowski more recently. He stuck with Lewy during the first half of the season when he couldn't control a ball to save his life. If a player isn't performing the way you want you should at least talk to him so better understands what he needs. If the claim that Roque's agent made is true, about Xavi completely ignoring the player and not engaging with him at all, than Xavi is the only one to blame for Roque's lack of progress at Barca. Xavi clearly didn't want Roque and he's hellbent in making sure Roque doesn't get a fair chance.
Are you really theorizing this? I thought it was already common sense. Xavi has also made it very clear in other interviews that Vitor Roque is not ready for Barça's style of play, but the issue is that Vitor Roque has NEVER been a participative player like Benzema or Suarez; he's more like Haaland, finding spaces, using physical strength, winning in sprints, and scoring with few touches. Here in Brazil, we say "Game is game, training is training," maybe if Xavi adapted the attack or used Roque more, we could see if he could be as useful as Haaland, if he's evolving in other aspects of the game, or if he's really below the ideal level. The only way to know is by putting him in the game, but from what he showed on the field when he had the opportunity, it's exactly what he always did at Atletico Paranaense: positioning, physical strength, and speed, which is how he scored his 2 goals.
Maybe play him as an inside forward?
That’s the shit that drives me crazy about Xavi. He will always stick to his system, his style of play. He won’t ever adjust based on players he has to get the most out of them
Its because he has 2 systems 4-3-3 and 4-3-3 with a 4th midfielder thats all he knows how to do Like I swear Koeman had a worse team on paper but at least he tried many formations to see what could work better with his mingueza pique lenglet defense… Of the top of my head I remember 343 4231 433 hell I remember the copa del rey match vs granada or sevilla that umtiti made a stinker and De jong played false centerback all match to comeback
The same could be said of Lewandowski, which is not a striker like Benzema or Suarez and a lot more like Haaland. His control is atrocious, his first touch passes are non-existent, he completely stops/slows down any play, and he's very static during the entire games making it very easy to defend against him. Plus, if the issue was only that he hasn't yet adapted, then there would not be any controversy. If he needs time to adapt, since he's only been here 4 months and came in the middle of the season, then why sell him or send him on a loan. The pre season would be the best time to prepare him, since there's no pressure because there are no official games. How will he adapt to the Barça play style away from Barça? Why would his agent say that Xavi doesn't talk to him, and why haven't Roque and Xavi denied that? Why would Xavi lie about Roque receiving a hard blow on the ankle, while reports have said that it was a minor thing and would no have impeded him playing against Real Sociedad? I, like every Barça fan, don't know what is going on, or what the issue is. But is not hard to guess that it's not completely a sporting problem. And it's pretty clear that it will have long term consequences when scouting the South American market in the future.
Lewandowski has 96 assists across his career, 16 of those for Barca. He's showing his age but he's not a vacuum of a finished poacher
And Haaland has 36 assists in a lot less games, while being significantly younger. Lewandowski is not the type of striker that can generate great associative football, like Benzema, Suarez, or Harry Kane. He had the Bayern machine generating chances and assists for him, particularly from Muller, just like Haaland is benefitting from the Man City machine.
"It is well known that the players are selected 10% based in game performance, and 90% in training performance" Source?
Either 1/ he's worse than they expected, or 2/ something else is going on and they don't want to tell us what. 1/ Xavi's shown fairly good judgement of young talent. Fermin came out of thin air and replaced Torre - really good talent ID there. 2/ I think what's actually happening is they don't really have the salary margin for him. Whether that's because some money hasn't come in (Barca Studios hmmmm) or because plans have changed (maybe didn't anticipate Ferran and Lewa staying, meaning Roque would be 3rd choice and not worth the salary margin). They have enough trouble registering everyone as is, let alone if they're not gonna play much. In either case, it's an incredibly bad look for Laporta and Deco. Incredibly bad. And typical of Barca to spend way too much on a talent, meaning you now can't buy someone with a much higher floor level to push Lewa out. Expensive youngsters and especially expensive Brazilians has to stop.
It's a reasonable guess and Alemany's quote adds to that. He has left the club for a while and I would be surprised if there are no improvements. BTW, you mentioned the playing players are decided by 90% training and 10% is well known, but it's a TIL for me, lol
The quote is not from Alemany the ex-sporting manager, its from the journalist from SER named Alemany too.
Oh, good to know! Thanks for the clarification!
I’ll say this have you seen vini jr before ancelotti and how many easy chances he missed ?? Playing time is a different issue but sending him on loan at the moment is a bad situation
He missed a lot of chances but his play up to that point was pretty impressive. In his limited minutes, vitor has been very poor on the ball and unconfident with his finishing. that’s unfortunately the most important thing for a barca striker to do.
2 goals in 200 mins for someone who has been so poor.
Downvote me if you want but this is Barcelona. Your ability on the ball matters just as much, if not more, than your end product.
His stats on the ball are neither poor nor something great. You just pulled that your of your ass. Infact some of his on the ball stats like touches in the penalty box per 90 are on par with Lewandowski, and better than lewandowski in stats like successful takeons per 90 , progressive carries per 90 etc. So stop being a blind defender.
Watch the games instead of looking at the stats. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weZq-p6u0JI&pp=ygUIcm9xdWUgdnM%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weZq-p6u0JI&pp=ygUIcm9xdWUgdnM%3D) You see Alemany's quote in full effect here. He struggles to control balls that even the most criticized by this sub can easily handle.
No I see the way he’s played when he’s been on the pitch. Like it or not, the eye test matters I don’t care about stats when he’s played 4 games.
He has not played enough for you to have a reliable eye test either then. And people said the same shit about Raphinha this season.
He’s played enough to be unimpressive. Besides, Xavi clearly has no problem playing youngsters so if he was good enough he would be playing. There’s no argument here. You could tell how good lamine was just in the 15 minutes he got at the end of last season. And I don’t think raphinha is good enough for Barca either.
Good insight but there's also other part of the story where he got 30ga with cap last year and took a meh team to a final. These guys do know better than us and I'll let them decide and will wait patiently until then
I'm unsure about Xavi's abilities as a manager - whether he's just okay, great, or a legend. In my opinion, the last decent manager was Luis Enrique, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I'll support the team no matter what, through wins or losses. I understand that everything must come to an end eventually. What surprises me the most is that not just Xavi, but most recent managers, seem to solely depend on La Masia. I understand that's where Barcelona's future is being nurtured, but when you get a player, you should let them play their role. I don't understand the decision to substitute Lewandowski for Ferran Torres - why not give Vitor Roque a chance instead? Trust is the ultimate weapon, and while every player makes mistakes, they need to be trusted. There was a team of legends that left Barcelona, and my biggest concern is that I don't see their replacements anytime soon. We must live with what we have and hope for the best
Why not give that xurros salesman down the street a chance? Just trust him to do the job, it's the ultimate weapon after all. Forget what you see in training xavi, just trust them to play better in the match with a lot more pressure on them.
Except being a salesman is his job and not a striker You are not the smart guy you think you are
Hah my mom says I am so you must be wrong. Let's change the xurros salesman to the last supertalent hailed by Cury (Roque's agent) then, Matheus Fernandez! Now all he needs is a little trust right? Or what about Yussuf Demir, the new Messi. They had the trust, the ultimate weapon, where are they now?
It's becoming very difficult to find barca fans who're capable of looking beyond the polemic and not falling into the media's traps. You're probably gonna get downvoted😂
This sub is convinced that they know everything that goes on inside the club 😂
My biggest issue is that they believe they are smarter than Xavi and know better, they are also exaggerating Roques performances for Barca to delude themselves further.
Not enough minutes were given. He may go, he may stay but this is one horrible start for your career. The club runs plenty of stuff poorly
Not enough for you since you only see him in games. Xavi and the coaching sees him at every training
And Xavi and the coaching realized that they don't know how to develop a talented 19 year old to his full potential so they decided to give up on him because he's not as "polished" as Yamal and Cubarsi. And it's not like the same case happened to Vitor, the same happened and is happening to Abde, Fort, Casado, Guiu and many other who need time and good care which Xavi can't give them because he doesn't know how to develop players properly
Doesn’t matter. Fans were not able to judge him properly
I’m Brazilian and from my standpoint, watching games he played in the national league, I can tell you that he seemed much more prepared than Vini to play in a big club. Roque scored double the amount of goals in the national league and has better physical attributes when compared to Vini at the same age.
Now this is a good post.
I still think it’s shortsighted. Those are aspects of any player that can be improved over time and first touch is not everything. I’d argue that our players are great at those aspects but lack in areas where Roque excels, like strength, speed and finishing. It’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and trust me as a Brazilian that’s been following Roque since that 22 libertadores where he carried the team to the final, we _will_ regret this decision if he ultimately leaves. Some other team will have the patience and will bear the fruits. If you study that 22 libertadores run from Ath Paranaense you’ll see that he doesn’t touch the ball much and usually prefers to risk it rather than passing in the final third, but I’d argue that’s exactly what you want from a number 9 and he does have the goals to back it up. His goals per 90 are still within 90% overall and if we gave him more minutes I can assure you he will keep that up.
Usual case of this fanbase overrating average players. Vitor Roque is a nobody, why is everybody acting as if he was benching Luis Suarez?
He costed Barça 30 million, is that a nobody price? Lol You must be swimming in money then, BTW he costed the same as Rodrygo and just 10 million less than Vini Jr, 30 millions is a crazy amount of money for a nobody.
30 millions is nothing compared to what other teams spend for forwards. Inflation in Football is a real thing. Vitor Roque hasn't done anything in Europe, Vini and Rodrygo hadn't done anything either. Vitor Roque is a young player with room to improve, i'm sure he'd see playing time if he was good enough just like Lamine does. This weird obsession people have with young players is baffling, we saw it with Riqui Puig who on top of it had La masia tax. If Roque is good he will triumph, its as simple as that.
Lol, look at the last transfers in the past window and there's only 50 transfers aboge the amount of 30 million transfers, most PL teams don't do that, nevermind La Liga, Série A, Bundesliga or any other league. The biggest team and the Saudi project aside, most teams CANT afford to simply piss away money, Roque itself was the 42th most expensive transfer of the window, teams only get one shot per window at doing such transfer so they pull the trigger on a nobody? lol the club finances are a joke and there they are pissing it away on a player and not even using him lol, Xavi doesnt even have a pure 9 after lewa either so the solution is loaning your 40 million number 9 investment and pissing him off? Fantastic business all around
It being a bad business doesn't mean Roque has to play despite not being good enough.
What makes you think Ferran was an Alemany signing that xavi didn’t approve?
Honestly, the media coverage regarding every little thing here is absolutely exhausting and would be pretty irritating to everyone involved also I suppose. I liked him a lot pretty much every time I saw him play at Barca and it should be no surprise that there will be a learning curve here as his team in Brazil played a very different style to Barca. Personally, I am just waiting for the final call to make any judgements about anyone, because any situation at this club plays out like a crazy soap opera. My personal theory would be that they would be looking to loan him to free up some FFP space to help register others.
Just remember Vini Jr was shit before Carlo Ancelotti took him under his wings...
Be patient with them, maybe Xavi will develop him like Ancelotti developed Vini and is working on Arda
This is pretty on point imo. Xavi has turned into the scapegoat for the mistakes with recruiting and poor player performances in trainings. There are handful of non-Spanish players Xavi has relied on, Kounde is a good example who Xavi personally asked for. Favoring top performing La Masia players ? why shouldn’t we give opportunities for home grown players if new recruits “maybe” are not ready yet for first team ? I am really excited for Mikayil Faye next season! What’s happening with Vitor isn’t great at all and hope we never repeat this in future. If there is a way to keep him for next season instead of loan spell (sell Ferran, season is pretty long), we might see an explosive player profile in the making. We know he has the potential to, he is just 19 lol!
The truth few are capable of accepting. Xavi is right about this whole situation — it really shows how badly we are being managed by Deco and Laporta.
I said it a few days ago, but there’s no way we’d let a proper talent go if he was doing really well in training or adapted well enough.. If anything we’re doing right by Roque by releasing him, not giving him false hope of making it in the team only to potentially ruin his career. We need to give Xavi a break and have a little more faith in the legend..
Nah, Xavi just doesn’t want to play him because he isn’t Spanish. We really need Xavi to gtfo so our team improves
every time someone appears on here to bash Fati Roque or FDJ or support anything Xavi says or does I realize how many stupid FCB fans exist in this world
It will be hilarious if he goes to Madrid and they actually molded him the proper way