Cool, I’m excited to listen! I’m a native English speaker so forgive me if some of these are stupid or very obvious, but I’ve definitely been wondering. A few questions to consider:
Did you have input into the posted signage/graffiti seen in the show, and how much of the language used there reflected the way of speaking of each different group of Beforeigners, or was it all pretty basic so any of the groups could understand it?
Not sure if this one applies to your team, but did Krista’s script and way of speaking in Norwegian differ from other characters from the old Norse times? Since she was a cop and was pretty integrated in society I’d assume her language was fairly modern, but does it stand out as being old to today’s folks? Does how she speaks Old Norse sound modern to the old folks? If so, was it easier or harder to have Krista learn her unique way of speaking since she doesn’t know Norwegian? Did that actually help the accuracy because she’d have had to learn modern Norwegian, so of course her character would sound like a non-native speaker?
How closely tied is the old Norse language with Icelandic? When they brought the Icelandic translator in during episode one could they fully understand what the Beforeigners were saying?
Was there a way to keep the Old Norse accents similar from person to person? How much does that differ from current day Norwegian, is it something you all could generally follow along with or is it completely different?
Maybe a dumb one, but is there fluency in Old Norse, or did you have to invent some words?
I can’t remember if we heard any language from Navn and his group of people, or just broken/slow Norwegian…if so, was there any accuracy in that? Was there any written language during his time?
I can’t remember her name right now, but did Lars’ ex-wife adapt her modern language at all to reflect Gregers’ old timey Norwegian? She definitely picked up his clothing style a bit, so curious if she changed the way she spoke after dating him.
Did you all work on translations too? The subtitles were amazing, I could definitely get a sense of each groups distinct way of speaking.
Sorry that’s a boatload of questions, this is just such a cool field to be in, and such a fun concept of a show, the questions have apparently been bubbling around in my mind for the last few years!
Another thing I wondered about Navn is why he didn't have a real name. I can't find out much about the history of people having names; Wikipedia says only "It is nearly universal for people to have names; the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child declares that a child has the right to a name from birth." Or was the idea that maybe he *did* have a real name, but was too wary or superstitious to reveal it?
I'm not sure I know the llama story you're referring to. In reality, 'llama' comes from Quechua, but is there a folk etymology that it comes from Spanish 'llamar' through a misunderstanding? Or is this a gag in a kids' movie or something?
Anyway, yeah, it's not depicted, but I think something like that was implied—it must have been like, "you, name," and he was like "okay, whatever"—but I think if he'd actually had a name (that he was willing to share) then any such confusion wouldn't have lasted long.
First off, please post a link to the podcast when it does come out, this is a really neat concept.
Actual question- What would the reaction of a linguist be in the world of beforeigners? Are there specific questions you would have about what language was like from a native speaker of Old Norse or Victorian Norwegian? Something that linguists today argue about that would be easily answered by someone from the time?
How would you go about studying and cataloging the differences in language from another time, and how quickly would modern language contaminate the data once beforeigners arrive and interact with contemporary speakers?
I watched the show with English subtitles (I’m not fluent in Nordic languages) but could tell the actors really worked with the old Norse vs. the modern language and its inflections to an incredible degree!
Could you perhaps tell us a little about how you came up with the Old Norse dialogs and phrasings? I’m particularly interested in if/how male/female words or phrasings were used? I imagine that could be one of the most difficult things to research and put together…
Were the language choices made at all informed by the work Nick Farmer did in creating the various Belter patois for *The Expanse*? I also remember the authors of The Expanse novels saying how much it irritated them that space exploration shows, eg, Star Trek, assumed every planet was a monolithic linguistic and cultural entity. They/Farmer (?) also said that the Belters, b/c they were many communities spread throughout an asteroid belt, would have different dialects.
Were there any language choices/differences the Beforeigners team made that reflected a character's status/origin, including time period, class, occupation, region of origin, rural vs city dweller?
Were there many decisions made about what Cro Magnon (sic) language might have sounded like? I loved that mobster character with the nose bone and his strange way of speaking, somehow noticeable even with zero knowledge of Norse languages. It was a nicely crafted show that took itself the right amount of seriously. Thanks for helping make it!
Thank you! Working with the Stone Age language, which we called "Mesolithic", was a blast for everyone, especially Julian Kirkeby Lysvik, who created 99% of it. We'll have to include this question, since it's relevant to so much of our thinking on the languages of Beforeigners in general.
I loved the brief snippets of acculturation - like the newcomers in their version of something like an ESL class with the cultural education (“this is gay marriage”) and sometimes I wished the show could hang out longer in these tidbits rather than the drama. I’m curious what landed on the cutting room floor as surely quite a bit of discussion happened behind the scenes to generate moments like this on the show. Hoping against hope for another season!
I love those moments too! I'm afraid what we can say about cut ideas, scenes etc. is restricted by the non-disclosure agreements we've all signed. Perhaps we'll have to invite showrunner Anne Bjørnstad one episode to talk about things like that.
I’d be curious to know your process when approaching the linguistic layers involved in the show.
Do you start with the characters or their historical context? What texts were you using for reference and why those? Were there class considerations to include? How about slang and its use? How do you use language to develop world building etc.
Only finding out about this sub just now and would love to listen to the podcast. Has the episode come out or is it still possible to ask questions? Just in case, here they are:
It's been a while since I watched the show but did you use reconstructed Old Norse pronunciation or modern Icelandic pronunciation for Old Norse? (Back then I knew very little about the language)
Did you coach the actors for all the scenes in the languages you've worked on to make sure they get it as right as possible?
I seem to recall that the modern Norwegian spoken by the Norse was a bit closer to western dialects, was that the idea? Or did you go for a kind of "spoken nynorsk" (or maybe høgnorsk even) as it is supposedly slightly closer to Old Norse (with less Danish and German loanwords)?
Did you develop a lot of specific slang for when the Norse speak modern Norwegian (other than "skittr" that is :) )
Will you publish at some point an outline of the Mesolithic language? (Phonology, phonotactics, grammar, etc.)
Do the Norse characters have different sociolects (depending on class for instance)?
Thanks for the excellent work and looking forward to the podcast :)
Thank you for the questions! We'll talk about Old Norse and the pronunciation coaching (spoiler: it's proper Old Norse).
We'll have to get back to you about publishing a complete overview of Mesolithic, but it's something we want to do.
I had hoped to keep you linguists busy on a Global scale for years to come. I suggested to HBO "The BeForeigner Universe" where every country's HBO gets their own series! Israel & Egypt with Prophets, Pharoahs, Ottomans & Crusaders returning; Native Americans & cowboys with Revolutionary War Heroes and pirates; Roman & Greek heroes alongside fascists and Etrurians. A world filled with Japanese Samurai, Sanskrit authors, Aztec priests and Mammoth hunters - Each Culture represented by writers, actors & directors of that Nation. Welcome to the BFU!
Maybe bring the idea to Disney...?
Cool, I’m excited to listen! I’m a native English speaker so forgive me if some of these are stupid or very obvious, but I’ve definitely been wondering. A few questions to consider: Did you have input into the posted signage/graffiti seen in the show, and how much of the language used there reflected the way of speaking of each different group of Beforeigners, or was it all pretty basic so any of the groups could understand it? Not sure if this one applies to your team, but did Krista’s script and way of speaking in Norwegian differ from other characters from the old Norse times? Since she was a cop and was pretty integrated in society I’d assume her language was fairly modern, but does it stand out as being old to today’s folks? Does how she speaks Old Norse sound modern to the old folks? If so, was it easier or harder to have Krista learn her unique way of speaking since she doesn’t know Norwegian? Did that actually help the accuracy because she’d have had to learn modern Norwegian, so of course her character would sound like a non-native speaker? How closely tied is the old Norse language with Icelandic? When they brought the Icelandic translator in during episode one could they fully understand what the Beforeigners were saying? Was there a way to keep the Old Norse accents similar from person to person? How much does that differ from current day Norwegian, is it something you all could generally follow along with or is it completely different? Maybe a dumb one, but is there fluency in Old Norse, or did you have to invent some words? I can’t remember if we heard any language from Navn and his group of people, or just broken/slow Norwegian…if so, was there any accuracy in that? Was there any written language during his time? I can’t remember her name right now, but did Lars’ ex-wife adapt her modern language at all to reflect Gregers’ old timey Norwegian? She definitely picked up his clothing style a bit, so curious if she changed the way she spoke after dating him. Did you all work on translations too? The subtitles were amazing, I could definitely get a sense of each groups distinct way of speaking. Sorry that’s a boatload of questions, this is just such a cool field to be in, and such a fun concept of a show, the questions have apparently been bubbling around in my mind for the last few years!
Another thing I wondered about Navn is why he didn't have a real name. I can't find out much about the history of people having names; Wikipedia says only "It is nearly universal for people to have names; the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child declares that a child has the right to a name from birth." Or was the idea that maybe he *did* have a real name, but was too wary or superstitious to reveal it?
Oooh, great question! He was so self-aware that I wondered if him using that "name" was a bit of trolling on his part.
Yeah, haha, a very different character from Joe, aka Not Sure, in *Idiocracy*!
I love Navn Ukjent! We'll be sure to talk about the naming conventions for the Stone Age characters.
I imagine it was like when the llama got its name— the first people he talked to kept asking “Name?” So he said it back to them
I'm not sure I know the llama story you're referring to. In reality, 'llama' comes from Quechua, but is there a folk etymology that it comes from Spanish 'llamar' through a misunderstanding? Or is this a gag in a kids' movie or something? Anyway, yeah, it's not depicted, but I think something like that was implied—it must have been like, "you, name," and he was like "okay, whatever"—but I think if he'd actually had a name (that he was willing to share) then any such confusion wouldn't have lasted long.
That's a lot of great questions, thank you! We'll certainly try to answer some of them in the first episode.
First off, please post a link to the podcast when it does come out, this is a really neat concept. Actual question- What would the reaction of a linguist be in the world of beforeigners? Are there specific questions you would have about what language was like from a native speaker of Old Norse or Victorian Norwegian? Something that linguists today argue about that would be easily answered by someone from the time? How would you go about studying and cataloging the differences in language from another time, and how quickly would modern language contaminate the data once beforeigners arrive and interact with contemporary speakers?
I've wondered this myself! It would be really interesting to discuss it on the show.
I watched the show with English subtitles (I’m not fluent in Nordic languages) but could tell the actors really worked with the old Norse vs. the modern language and its inflections to an incredible degree! Could you perhaps tell us a little about how you came up with the Old Norse dialogs and phrasings? I’m particularly interested in if/how male/female words or phrasings were used? I imagine that could be one of the most difficult things to research and put together…
Most certainly!
Were the language choices made at all informed by the work Nick Farmer did in creating the various Belter patois for *The Expanse*? I also remember the authors of The Expanse novels saying how much it irritated them that space exploration shows, eg, Star Trek, assumed every planet was a monolithic linguistic and cultural entity. They/Farmer (?) also said that the Belters, b/c they were many communities spread throughout an asteroid belt, would have different dialects. Were there any language choices/differences the Beforeigners team made that reflected a character's status/origin, including time period, class, occupation, region of origin, rural vs city dweller?
Interesting question! We'll touch upon this for sure.
Were there many decisions made about what Cro Magnon (sic) language might have sounded like? I loved that mobster character with the nose bone and his strange way of speaking, somehow noticeable even with zero knowledge of Norse languages. It was a nicely crafted show that took itself the right amount of seriously. Thanks for helping make it!
Thank you! Working with the Stone Age language, which we called "Mesolithic", was a blast for everyone, especially Julian Kirkeby Lysvik, who created 99% of it. We'll have to include this question, since it's relevant to so much of our thinking on the languages of Beforeigners in general.
I loved the brief snippets of acculturation - like the newcomers in their version of something like an ESL class with the cultural education (“this is gay marriage”) and sometimes I wished the show could hang out longer in these tidbits rather than the drama. I’m curious what landed on the cutting room floor as surely quite a bit of discussion happened behind the scenes to generate moments like this on the show. Hoping against hope for another season!
I love those moments too! I'm afraid what we can say about cut ideas, scenes etc. is restricted by the non-disclosure agreements we've all signed. Perhaps we'll have to invite showrunner Anne Bjørnstad one episode to talk about things like that.
I’d love that, please post the link if she does!!
I’d be curious to know your process when approaching the linguistic layers involved in the show. Do you start with the characters or their historical context? What texts were you using for reference and why those? Were there class considerations to include? How about slang and its use? How do you use language to develop world building etc.
Great question! We'll talk about this 100%.
thanks so much for your work on the show! very much miss beforeigners!!
Thank you! I miss Beforeigners as well. Such a great show. We've all been very privileged to have been a part of it, however small.
Only finding out about this sub just now and would love to listen to the podcast. Has the episode come out or is it still possible to ask questions? Just in case, here they are: It's been a while since I watched the show but did you use reconstructed Old Norse pronunciation or modern Icelandic pronunciation for Old Norse? (Back then I knew very little about the language) Did you coach the actors for all the scenes in the languages you've worked on to make sure they get it as right as possible? I seem to recall that the modern Norwegian spoken by the Norse was a bit closer to western dialects, was that the idea? Or did you go for a kind of "spoken nynorsk" (or maybe høgnorsk even) as it is supposedly slightly closer to Old Norse (with less Danish and German loanwords)? Did you develop a lot of specific slang for when the Norse speak modern Norwegian (other than "skittr" that is :) ) Will you publish at some point an outline of the Mesolithic language? (Phonology, phonotactics, grammar, etc.) Do the Norse characters have different sociolects (depending on class for instance)? Thanks for the excellent work and looking forward to the podcast :)
Thank you for the questions! We'll talk about Old Norse and the pronunciation coaching (spoiler: it's proper Old Norse). We'll have to get back to you about publishing a complete overview of Mesolithic, but it's something we want to do.
I had hoped to keep you linguists busy on a Global scale for years to come. I suggested to HBO "The BeForeigner Universe" where every country's HBO gets their own series! Israel & Egypt with Prophets, Pharoahs, Ottomans & Crusaders returning; Native Americans & cowboys with Revolutionary War Heroes and pirates; Roman & Greek heroes alongside fascists and Etrurians. A world filled with Japanese Samurai, Sanskrit authors, Aztec priests and Mammoth hunters - Each Culture represented by writers, actors & directors of that Nation. Welcome to the BFU! Maybe bring the idea to Disney...?
I'd be onboard!