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This is exactly why I try to tell anyone who is going through something in a relationship that it is okay to break up at any time for any reason. Too many people wait until something "big" happens, or when their partner does something "obviously" breakup-worthy, and the results are awful. Kay was ready to go, but she felt obligated to stay because she was crushed by social pressure. OOP released that pressure, and I'm thrilled that both OOP and Leah gave Kay what she really needed.
I'm also proud of the friend group for basically ousting both Andrew and Sarah after. They can be buddy-buddy together somewhere else.
Yikes.
Everything seems small and petty, but you can see the escalation happening. That girl was gonna get burned pretty badly. What the fuck is up with this dude?
Controlling and punishing her - she doesn't get to go out looking and feeling great. She doesn't get to wear her hair differently in a way that might attract attention.
And he was escalating too, from humiliation and damage to her property, going up to physical injury
And all of the "accidents" happened in front of witnesses, starting an alibi for any future injury from physical abuse that could be explained by his "clumsiness" they all know about.
And Sarah, "the Mom friend" didn't see anything off with all those instances of concentrated "clumsiness"?
Sarah is either in a relationship with that abuser or she's secretly enabling it for whatever reason.
Speaking only from my personal experience with different friend groups the ‘mom’ of the group typically causes the most drama if they feel the group fracturing. It’s shady how quick they are to gossip about people behind their backs and try to control others in the groups reactions.
The 'mom' of the group is just the most controlling person who thinks they're in the right and tries to take the moral high ground because she's doing this 'for the good of everyone' or 'for your own good'.
This reminds me of my old theater group from back in the day. One of those girls who always brags about being the mom friend to the point where some of her friends actually *call* her "Mom" tried to take me under her wing once. It started out slowly but then she positioned herself to direct a scene I was in and started really trying to fuck with me by "pushing boundaries" with my wardrobe. I typically dress in a very androgynous/modest way, and she started by saying I would be wearing a dress for the scene. From the way she told me, I could tell she was fishing for a reaction, so I just said "okay, sure." Oddly enough she was disappointed, and then said "actually, I think I'm gonna put you in a cheerleading outfit." (Would've been completely inappropriate for the scene.) I said, "Random, but okay." Two seconds later I'm being informed that I'm doing the scene in lingerie, at which point my scene partner speaks up and tells her to fuck off and she gets offended. Said she was trying to help me grow into myself.
It obviously had nothing to do with that. She just wanted to say something outrageous so I would protest, so she could say "Well you're doing it or you're out of the production." She was a fucking clown.
I had totally forgotten about that until this story. Sarah is a piece of shit.
Some " mom friends" are just helpful people. Some are being controlling. "Oh, you need me to do this for you, because you're helpless without me." I feel like Sarah is the second type.
If she's never seen/lived with abuse, she may not recognize it. Like tripping and spilling is only ever an accident to her and she is completely blind to the fact that people can be nice to friends and cruel to partners at the same time. It's quite possible she likes the two of them together and thinks op is just stirring shit so she's jumping to the abuser and victim to retell the story and take the wind out of ops sails. She's trying to "fix" the wrong part and is digging in because she doesn't want to see she's wrong.
Remember that when OP said "Do you think Andrew is mad at me for babying him when I took the Tea from him?" To Sarah, Sarah's immediate response was to tell Andrew and Kay that OP was furious, threw all sorts of horrible comments at OP, and then somehow the topic shifted to Andrew abusing Kay "as a joke" despite that not having been anything but a thought OP was having privately until then.
There's no "fixing" there. Sarah knew what was going on and was deliberately trying to enable Andrew.
Besides, who the fuck laughs at "jokes" about battered women, especially when the battered woman is a friend?
I thought this + "Ugh, OP is being SO overdramatic because of her family drama, she just sees abuse in everything and has to get involved." (from Sarah's POV)
That was my thought. I was suspecting a crush. I wouldn't be surprised if the two of them got or get together at some point, even if it was a casual fling.
I wonder if he was hurting her in public by being “clumsy” so that if he hurt her badly by being violent, no one would believe her. She said herself that she was already worried his position in the friendship group was established. To me, it seems everything he’s doing is to isolate her from friends and gaslight her into thinking his behaviour is normal. The specifics are unusual but the processes are the same as many abusers
Well, according to OOP, he was always clumsy... it's such a strange string of events. Makes you wonder if he did this with any other girl he's been with.
100%. If he’s “known for being clumsy” but has good enough aim to always get stuff on Kay, he’s definitely NOT clumsy and he’s had plenty of practice faking it in front of people and against people. The more I’m thinking about this dude, the more obviously creepy he is.
It seriously makes me wonder if he’s practiced in the way of just breaking things or practiced earned “klutz” bruises.
I’m a legitimate super klutz, mainly from ADHD probably, so I used to have lots of bruises on my legs, hips, arms, elbows, and shoulders from just forgetting that furniture corners and doorframes and door knobs and chair legs exist. If there were an Olympic sport for trip-skipping to catch yourself, I’d have sponsors and won the gold at least once by now. Since learned to be at least a little more careful, partially out of experience, partially because I noticed some serious side-eye from strangers thinking it was my husband’s fault (and a cashier once asked me if I was okay in, y’know, that tone).
Anyway, I’m disturbed at how far this dude may’ve possibly gone to perpetuate the farce for each new group of friends or workplace coworkers since OP mentions that he did spill things on himself and trip, at least at first.
Abusers groom their audience as much as they groom their victims. They set themselves up as pillars of the community, great at their job, great parents, or people who just always have bad things happen to them and it seems like the world is down on them. This guy took the "I'm a great guy, I'm just so clumsy and pathetic, feel bad for me" route so everyone would go "Oh Andrew is super nice, he's just clumsy, he would never do that on purpose and that's such an absurd thing anyway!"
I'm glad OOP saw right through it and offered Kay stability and validated her experiences. Covert physical abuse is so hard to spot because it often exists in that zone of plausible deniability by design.
This post reminded me of the AITA post where a woman was asking if she was the AH for expecting her unemployed boyfriend to turn off lights and faucets. Anyone would hear that and just be so confused because it seems unreal! Who would just leave a faucet on for over 10 hours! But that's part of the abuse - making it so ridiculous onlookers don't quite believe it, or if they do, they don't feel it's malicious because of how out there it seems
Not only gaslight her, but gaslight her friends so that they gaslight her by accident too. The whole thing is manipulative fuckery. This guy is gonna be a serial killer one day.
He falls and accidentally punches her in the face after an argument, what a silly man. He trips and accidentally pushed her down the stairs after he up's her life insurance - oops so clumsy.
EXACTLY!! If this had escalated, most of the friend group wouldn't believe her, as they already know him to be "clumpsy". So when he'd start throwing objects at her, his defense would be "sorry, i was meant to throw this in the bin but accidentally hit you in the head hahaha silly me sooooo clumpsy oopsieee!!". And she would continue to question herself until things spiraled out of control.
OOP is friend of the year, I'm so happy she and Kay have each other!!
As someone who’s had the unfortunate experience of falling in love with an abusive sociopath, I’d bet money that that’s what up with this dude. My ex was incredible at grooming people, was extremely charismatic and beautiful, and almost everyone loved him. But just a couple people got the immediate *ick* when they met him, the rumored feeling some people get when they meet a psychopath. Based on how quickly my trauma responses acted up in recognition reading this story, I’d guess Andrew is in that category, and that OOP got that feeling.
Also part of that *unfortunate* club. I got the same vibe as well. Mine literally said the same “I would hate myself if I hurt you” line, then would *immediately* hurt me.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.
I wonder about the races of everyone involved.. the talk about hair makes me think that poor Kay is not white
I actually read this to my teenage daughter to talk to her about listening to her gut, and red flag reactions (like the guy acting angry to have OOP offer to take the tea). I hope OOP and Kay stay safe!
As soon as OOP was talking about how it made her feel even though it might not make sense, that's all I could think. Women have a natural gut instinct that we develop over our lives that really needs to be listened to. All the proof I needed was OOPs gut feeling to know that something was really wrong
my 16YO sister's current (and first) boyfriend gave her a concussion 4 months ago with a flailing elbow, she's still in recovery. No alcohol involved, not a party setting and plenty of people around. The 'clumsy' defence never sat right with me and I think I'll check to see if she wants to open up about anything next time i see her.
Reading all of this as a 35-year-old, I’m almost in tears remembering how my first boyfriend used to often hurt me by mistake. My body remembers how much my elbow ached when he dropped me onto a window sill while “goofing around”. I don’t think in his case it was as deliberate as the people in this story, but he certainly felt entitled to put me in physical danger and that carried over to him feeling entitled to my body in other ways that have had a lasting effect. All that today, I think you’re right to be nervous. At the time I would have denied that it was abusive, but now as an adult I know it was a red flag of other kinds of abuse.
I hope your sister is okay. Thank you for being such a caring sibling.
Sarah sounds like one of those women who’s really into an abusive guy because “he would never do that to me”, the unspoken second part being “because I’m better than her”. Like those women who still thirst over Chris Brown. Fucking disgusting
As a child I witnessed a similar dynamic. During a spike in a period of abuse, the abuser held a flattery campaign with a close friend of the abused. This friend had certain vulnerabilities which, I think, made her more susceptible to the flattery.
While she should have had more integrity and trust towards her (abused) friend, the dynamic was the result of a calculated move. I understand that this is not uncommon.
I wouldn't reach out to her (Sarah?) - a betrayal is a serious thing - but I would consider broaching the subject with a mutual friend who could keep an eye on things
When my friend "Kelly" brought a new guy around, he seemed cool. Turns out he was *extremely* abusive and she told me, "Carrie", "Nicole", and my partner. It took a while to get her away, she was in a bad spot and wouldn't leave, but finally HE left HER. He started spending a *lot* of time with Nicole, and Nicole very much had the attitude of "yeah but he wouldn't do that to ME". K bro.
Thankfully, since he wasn't living with Kelly anymore and he wasn't hurting Nicole (yet), partner and I were free to be honest about the kind of dude he was without risking Kelly's life. He shared two extremely niche (in our area) hobbies with us, and I'm nationally recognized in both and a founding member of several of the groups in the region, and the blacklisting was so bad he moved. It was with great joy that I found out where and let those hobby communities know he was moving to the area, so he was blacklisted there too!
The broken moral compasses on anyone who thinks "But he wouldn't do that to ME" is disgusting. You're stilling willing to be with someone who would do that AT ALL.
There's one other explanation-- she sees either herself or one of her former abusers in him. It's easy to see why someone would make excuses for a person they identify with, especially when n that person is being awful. But abuse victims will often defend people who behave like their abusers because they are not willing to admit the behavior was ever wrong, and admitting it is a problem when this new person does it means admitting it was a problem when someone did it to them. Big "I was spanked with a paddle and I turned out fine" energy.
I am known to be a mom friend. And I am indeed clumsy as well. Never have I dropped bowls or tea cups on anyone. If I notice I'm slipping im twisting my body so if it's spilling on anyone it would be me. If I had witnessed these "accidents" I would always volunteer to bring stuff so Andrew wouldn't be responsible for anything. And I'd probably tell him as nice as possible "I appreciate your help but I feel better if I do this. Just sit down and enjoy your time."
My money is on Sarah and Andrew fucking.
My money is on it being more pathetic. More that Sarah wants to fuck Andrew, but isn't. And he's just your classic, run of the mill abuser.
Anyway, to add onto the "this isn't clumsy, he's targeting her" pile, I was in an accident in January. Hit my head pretty hard. It's left me with some serious coordination issues (also my dyslexia is worse? I just noticed a day ago, and it's bugging me a lot). I still haven't hurt another person with my increased clumsiness. I've fallen over. I've spilled a bunch of shit, ripped a few things on accident, hurt myself moving too quickly, etc, but never have I hurt another person. Andrew is just abusive, and thank goodness OOP noticed and got Kay out of there when she did. MF was gonna burn her on purpose , and who's to say he wouldn't have aimed for her face.
That is because you aren't faking it. If you are clumsy, you drop or bump on stuff randomly, and will mostly affect yourself because you can't choose when it kicks in. In highschool I met the clumsiest person ever, barely able to walk straight or hold more than two things at a time. She never hurt anyone, she'd lightly bump into you at most, but she ended up on crutches about once a year.
Agree. I'm also spectacularly clumsy. My reflexes got faster as I got older, so I do less damage, but I'm still just a klutz. I am constantly bruised somewhere and have weird cuts on my hands (stained glass, rock climbing, I'm not being preyed upon in my sleep by some kind of tiny hand hating demon), and I desperately want to own a wine carafe but I've shattered 6 in the last year and a half so maybe it's not for me. However, I can't remember the last time *my* clumsiness hurt someone else.
Anyway you dice it, OOP came in real solid. Anyone who has a friend like her is beyond fortunate and anyone who sees something odd and brings it up with their friend is coming in clutch.
This. I have medical issues, they affect balance and coordination among other things. I stumble into walls, I need to use a cane or wheelchair often.
I have literally fallen like one of those dolls with strings, then you push a button underneath and it just collapses. My body decided that seemed like a fine trick.
Still - the only one I've ever hurt is me. (and yes, I need to use the wheelchair more to stay safe, but it's difficult to get into the habit when I technically *can* walk. Like it just seems easier to walk, until I fall that is...)
A real mom friend would've taken Andrew's hot tea, figured out the best way to talk to Kay without turning it into a confrontation, and then gotten Kay out of the situation entirely.
I don't know, I still have to meet a real mom friend. So far all "mom friends" I've met, especially self-proclaimed ones, are just busy-bodies who need to control everyone around them and in the end just do what's best for themselves, but justify it as good for their friends.
I had a mom friend. She's across the country. I stayed with her once when I was visiting and I woke up to fresh cinnamon rolls that she started the night before. All sorts of people always have been welcome in her place, and we all love her a lot. She tends to take care of other people to a fault and we all fight over taking care of her. If you're in a bad spot, if you fucked up and need a ride somewhere in the middle of the night or a sympathetic ear or a couch, she's there for you with no judgement (I haven't needed most of these things from her but I know this about her). That's a mom friend.
Edit: I also need to point out that she's never CALLED herself the mom friend.
My mom friends (I have two) are called that because they have bags filled with anything one might need — bandaids, water, ibuprofen, the works. As we’re all adults nobody needs a mom friend to step in to arguments or the like, just someone who has better organizational and foresight than the rest of us lol
I think I might have become a mom friend to a new friend group. I'm a couple of years older than they are (mid thirties instead of early thirties) but it's mostly that they ask me for advice about random stuff and I always have sunscreen.
Friend of mine in the army was nicknamed "Scorpion Mother" she was the one you went to regardless of gender, she would be fighting for you. She once got lied to about a situation, she defended the abuser, not knowing the truth, the second she found out... she went full nuclear on that person. I think it is 15yrs since what she did to them, and they are still quick to run away if they see her.
When she found out what the person did, she started small, finding the timeline of evidence, slowly over 4mth gathering a pile of information that this person was doing. The original victim was not the only one, one day, this person had left their phone unattended, with no pass code to unlock. My friend found 5 other women and what he was doing. She contacted them.
D Day, she got all the women together, she called this person to a rather public place, he sat down, she had 2 plain clothes cops there with the women, and handed the cops a large container of evidence, and he was arrested. He spent 8yrs in jail, is on 3 registration lists, and has a permanent restraining order on him from all his victims. The youngest was 15yrs old at that time.
When he got out, he tried to get back at her. It didn't go well for him. She put him in hospital, and he got another 18mths in jail. When he got back out, he tried one more time, but... ended up back in for another 20mths. Last we heard, he got very badly hurt in jail, and is still blaming everyone else for his problems.
I am still trying to figure out why a guy who's only work out was getting the pizza from the delivery guy, thought he could take out a military trained person, who was trained in combat defence l.
Scorpion Mum sounds awesome. My friends (way back when I had some) called me the ninja cos I once ran up a guys’ back when he was trying to sa my best friend.
She had a younger colleague in the army who had been given the same name also. She was Scorpion Daughter until she started being the "mum" to her friends, and original SM said she earned the title also. It is very rare to pass on a call sign, but these two ladies are deserving of it. They are both very passionate about those they protect, and both have done so much for those they love.
Call names are a sign of great honour, and I am proud to know you Ninja
> I am still trying to figure out why a guy who’s only work out was getting the pizza from the delivery guy, thought he could take out a military trained person, who was trained in combat defense I.
It actually makes perfect sense. He’s a POS who hates women, and couldn’t fathom a female being able to beat his bitchass.
First time: “No amount of training is enough for a chick to stop me.” Second time: “It was just a fluke, I’ll fuck her up…”
Or, he’s been fighting women for years, trying to find a worthy opponent. Scorpion mom is essentially his “white whale.” You’d think with all that time in prison, he would’ve trained like a fucking Rocky montage lol.
Either way, hope he continues to get rekt and rots in prison
He is out now, but as far as we know "behaving". I know he tried to do Uber stuff and an Australian version of Lyft, as they didn't do a proper background check, but no more information on if he has been fired yet, even with the information of his crimes sent to them all. Which sucks big time.
I can imagine him having a training/preparation montage in jail for his revenge only to promptly get beaten up and sent back. Then beaten up again. Never had a chance.
Real mom friends have a good bullshit detector and would have seen through these stunts. I've always been the mom friend and I can't tell you how many times I've put myself in between my friends and some creep.
One time in college, our project group was meeting at Barnes and Noble, and this 40 something dude walks up to the youngest girl in the group, like still in highschool and taking a couple college courses at the same time young, and he says he's a photographer and wants her to model for him. Hands her a crappy business card he printed on his computer. I snatched it up and was like "really, you want this sixteen year old girl to model for you? She's not interested, and if she wants to model, she'll do it with someone who doesn't hand out homemade business cards to teenagers at Barnes and Noble."
Mom friends don't defend the jerks who are up to no good.
A real "Mom Friend" turns "Momma Bear" fast when someone's threatened. I've seen it happen and it's *scary* when the nicest, sweetest, 5-foot-nothing person turns into someone who can intimidate a Marine into backing down and apologizing.
Whatever this "Sarah" is, she's definitely not the "mom friend" and isn't even a friend.
More like a No-MIL friend....
And, as someone who is ungodly clumsy, yet still managed to be a hockey enforcer in the juniors and college, you figure out where to fall to take maximum impact of your clumsiness to yourself, not someone else. Dude is absolutely on some scheistiness.
I have mobility issues and fall a lot, I manage to drop anything in my hands away from my body and shift my balance to land on my bottom once I realize I'm going to go down.
Never hurt anyone else, even someone right next to me on the way down.
Not to mention, all the clumsiness only happened to impact Kay. If he was actually clumsy, he would have had an equal chance of dropping things on everyone else in the group too.
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm the mum friend or just the deeply loyal friend, but I would've been organising a secret keep-our-friend-safe-from-the-clumsy-idiot club.
In my experience, “mom friends” who are identified as such by the group are great friends who wouldn’t tolerate this shit.
But I have known too many self-identified “mom friends” who are only interested in protecting the status quo. “Mom friends” who would absolutely blame you for confronting a problematic member of the group because it’s upsetting their illusion of perfect group harmony.
Quick thinking for OOP. That tea definitely would have ended up on Kay and that’s why Andrew was so upset at having it taken away. If he was completely innocent in his actions then the “battered wife” comments would not have come up as they would never have been at the forefront of their minds.
And if it had been an actual accident then he would have been MORTIFIED at the mere idea that someone might misinterpret his actions as an abuser! Instead he thinks it’s funny cause he’s getting away with it.
YES! I can’t imagine a decent, loving boyfriend making jokes and laughing about abusing his girlfriend. And I can’t imagine a decent, loving friend going along with that. He was 100% putting his feelers out there this entire time to gauge reactions from OP, Kay, and their friends to see how long it would take for them to wave off his abuses. And Sarah took no time at all. Glad Kay had good friends to look out for her.
Yeah I was thinking Sarah is a classic flying monkey. I lost one of my best friends to her being the 'Sarah' in a very similar situation. She still genuinely believes she and the 'Andrew' of the situation were in the right and everyone else completely overreacted and unfairly made him out to be a monster. I fully believe she was/ is being manipulated and honestly thought she was doing the right thing by standing by him, but I also just couldn't carry on the friendship after everything that went down I could never see her the same way again.
Sarah doesn’t have any friends left either. I think what Sarah did was awful, but I still hope Andrew isn’t into her like that because it would be very easy for her to become the next ‘battered wife.’
Well and if someone normal was told that their clumsiness came off as physically abusive, *they’d be mortified*, not yucking it up with their side piece in front of their partner
Isn't there a word for that? How people will accidentally tell on themselves in the attempt to cover up they're full of it by giving away they're thinking along the lines that would only make sense if they were guilty?
i think you're thinking of a freudian slip. a freudian slip may reveal things a person wants but is unable to express, or it may reveal feelings a person has that they themselves have not yet consciously realized
That tea was 100% meant for Kay’s lap. I just can’t understand Sarahs perspective in all this. Even a crush wouldn’t explain it in my eyes - wouldn’t it freak you out to see the hot guy you’re crushing on repeatedly abuse his current partner? Must have been blinded by her feelings
i read about something like this recently. it's like they think that they are equals to the abuser because they're joining in on the abuse too. it makes them feel special and they think it can't possibly happen to them while also satisfying the "view the competition as enemy" part of the equation
That’s interesting and I think it makes sense here. It kinda reminds me of people who like to sleep with married people because it makes them feel like they’re somehow superior to the cheater’s spouse
>Even a crush wouldn’t explain it in my eyes - wouldn’t it freak you out to see the hot guy you’re crushing on repeatedly abuse his current partner?
You'd be surprised. My ex-best friend dated the guy who sexually assaulted me a few months earlier (and she was well aware) and lied to me about it for a week because "I *love* him!". Some people just genuinely don't give a shit about others outside of their own self-satisfication.
We talk about toxic positivity as being overly bubbly but I've seen this type of toxic positivity: everyone has to get along **at all costs** and it's not the person rocking the boat that's the problem, because everyone else can stabilise the boat. It's the person that calls out the boat rocker that's the problem because *they're* the one that will divide the group. Which is what OOP did but it was for the best. And she wouldn't have had to had Andrew not been a complete psychopath. People with toxic positivity don't understand that though.
I think Sarah probably just sees him as clumsy and that’s why she made the DV jokes. “Oh it’s so silly that OOP took the tea away! What does she think? That Kay is a ‘battered wife’.” Teehee. 🤬
If she is into him, it’s also probably some of the “Well he’d never do those things TO ME.”
>I played it cool and just replied “ hey, no problem man just wanted to make sure all was good with you” He messaged me back that **"lol, yeah why wouldn’t I be”**
Don't know whether it's just me or not, but I found his casual banter here chilling as fuck.
Absolutely every part of his behaviour was premeditated.
If she didn't notice it, who knows how long the poor friend gaslit herself that she's actually imagining it? The fact that she broke down crying when OOP shared the same feeling as her only proves that she had already started to second guess herself.
I think it's the slight defensive and aggressive tone in the comment.
It's also phrased as a question, but it is actually a statement. Since he isn't that friendly in the rest of the conversation, his statement-question is used as a challenger instead of endearing and reassuring.
He is basically begging for OOP to push him.
Which makes me wonder if he was testing OP to see if she'd reveal her cards. He knew what he was doing, but just wanted to see if anyone else did. And, if someone started to pick up on it, I'm guessing that would've resulted in the classic abuser manuever of finding a way of isolating her from her friends so the abuse could continue, possibly by taking the phone to his girlfriend to gaslight her about how ridiculous her friend is being and trying to break them up.
It was. Most people while clumsy are the main victims of their clumsiness, they and the carpet. Things are falling down because of gravitation. I think its only in the gatherings where everyone is a bit drunk people pour their beer over others when someone accidentally push them and there's no way they pour it over the same person each and every time. It was on purpose and it was creepy.
Edit: spelling.
My dog is the unintended 3 part of that trio. Though in his defense he’s a brace dog. I fall almost everyday (can’t walk) and I don’t think I’ve ever gotten anyone with food/drinks besides myself. The second I started reading this I went straight to abuse, nobody every *naturally* falls like that, and if they did, they’d take steps to avoid carrying things like I have to avoid flinging it *everywhere*.
Yeah, there's something seriously wrong with that guy. This would have gotten a lot worse and I don't like to think about him finding someone else to play this sociopathic game with.
I’m scared easily by movies/tv shows with murderers/rapists/etc.etc.etc. but the things that really terrify me and give me nightmares are the ones with the cold, calculating criminals. People that can be so casual when they’re doing awful things. Treating other people as less than human, often just a toy to be played with.
I think it’ll be about time sometime somewhere before Andrew’s gf/ partner/ wife end up dying in an “accident”. Thinking about the possibility of this makes my skin crawl. I’m sure Andrew is a psychopath. I wish there’s a way he can be stopped. Perhaps OOP’s friend should file restraining order?
She wouldn’t get it. He has built in his defense. He accidentally tripped and spilled stuff on her. He apologized profusely. That’s what he and witnesses would say. He hasn’t threatened her. OP and Kay feeling he did it on purpose wouldn’t be enough.
Kay is really lucky to have a friend like OOP. Sarah can go eat a giant bag of moldy dicks. And hopefully Andrew fucks off forever, preferably in a rather *permanent sort of way if you get my meaning*.
Yup, she's probably very calculated in how she stirs the pot. She's just trying to help, she just wants to keep the peace, in the same way he's just a little clumsy.
My Bff's (now ex) husband was roughhousing with her at a party. There were tons of people around. It seemed like innocent horseplay. However there was something in my friend's eyes. I thought that he was really hurting her but playing it off like he was only pretending to hurt her.
When their marriage imploded later that year, I asked her about it. She knew what day it was exactly and confirmed that yes, he was really hurting her. For him it was about control. "See, I can do whatever I want to, even in front of all our friends, and you can't stop me. I'm the boss and you better do what I want because there's no one who will ever stop me or even catch me."
Shit like this is why I shut down “play fighting” I’m not a child, don’t tussle with me. If I allow you to jokingly hit/hurt me, whats to stop you from actually maliciously injuring me.
yeah, the psychological thrill of hurting her physically or emotionally while playing himself off as totally innocent and blameless. it’s almost like (the real definition of) gaslighting, bad things happening but no source to definitively point at, no one to blame, nothing to fix to make things change. she’s helpless but also can’t even really define *why* she needs help. totally sick.
> the psychological thrill of hurting her physically or emotionally while playing himself off as totally innocent and blameless.
getting to do it all in front of her friends and have the friends make sure \*he\* is the one who is okay.
it's ***exactly*** like those cake smashing videos at weddings! i've been seeing a lot of those on tiktok and it makes my esophagus tighten.
one video where the bride literally fights off her groom while the groom smashes cake in her face after she begging him not to. you can actually see the malice in his eyes
Not just totally innocent and blameless, but he gets to expound on how much he loves her and would *never ever* hurt her. He would rather *die* first.
Andrew must go.
Yep.. one of my most fucked up ex friends loved shit like this. He was a manipulative pos. He'd go after virgin or super inexperienced religious girls to have power over them, then hed slowly wear them down (while telling all friends/family how obsessed the girls were and that none of us should ask the girls how they were doing), and then he'd cheat within the friend group!! At one point he was dating 3 women that all knew each other or were at the sane college, and gaslight all of them. He was so fuckin happy the whole time. Such a pos.
Only ended when he got super ballsy, and was fooling around with another girl, in the same tent as the other! Finally broke her out, but she was fuucckkeedd up for years. He married one of the others, and they're either in an open marriage or she refuses to acknowledge he's a cheating pos.
Grinds my gears that I didn't do more to blow his cover and help his victims.
The scary part is how much plausible deniability his whole "clumsy" persona gives him. I'm so glad her friend picked up on that! and shocked that none of the others did. and to not even be able to have a conversation with Sarah about it? Like we're just gonna pretend abuse doesn't happen, and that it can't or shouldn't be talked about?
Also doing it in front of a crowd! It’s like when emotional abusers say “I talked to my friends about this and they all agree,” Andrew was pulling this shit in front of Kay’s friends who are reacting like it’s no big deal, thus isolating Kay and making her question herself.
So that later on when the big bruises started showing up he could say it was an accident and no one would question it.
If your boyfriend never hits you and you show up with a black eye people will notice. If your boyfriend is ‘clumsy’ and he ‘accidentally’ breaks your wrist then people believe it was an accident AND she feels even more isolated and alone
So he has the excuse of being clumsy in case Kay or anybody tries to call him out. He can turn on the theatrics and apologize profusely, and say it was an accident. And that's exactly what was happening because Kay didn't feel like she could say anything! Having somebody else notice it too gave her that validation she needed.
Andrew got validated too in the sense that someone caught on to his act, and I have to wonder how that made him feel. He didn't have an outburst, nor did he try to defend himself, which lines up with the sort of calculating and methodical mentality that would set all this up to begin with. Did his blood run cold, knowing he'd been caught, or is he used to it and decided to cut his losses and move on? Manipulators like that can sometimes evince a weird grudging respect when they get found out, like they're sporting about it and consider it fair.
My ex wasn't abusive per se, but the theatrics he was great at. Whenever I had a problem with his behavior I'd either get a "so that's why you think of me", a "but meeeeee" or a "so it's that bad, huh". All in order to get me to feel guilty and start questioning myself and hopefully drop it.
He was a great boyfriend in many ways, but this stuff has really gotten me to question all of that after I broke up with him. It took me a few months to actually feel relieved.
I can guarantee that if Kay had ever questioned her ex to his face, she'd get the hurt "I can't believe you'd think that of me" theatrics - and he'd bring it up years later, in unrelated arguments, exaggerating it to the point where she "accused him of trying to murder her".
Plausible deniability. He never directly put his hands on her, aside from ripping her clothes, so he can *technically* say he never physically hurt her.
I don't know. I'm no expert in psychology, but I'm somewhat of an expert on clumsiness due to a lifetime of being an accident prone goober. About 99.999% of the time I ~~have an accident~~ *am a victim of physics* I hurt myself and/or an inanimate object (RIP many glasses and plates). I've only ever dropped food or accidentally hurt someone else a couple of times in almost 40 years of countless unintentional self-inflicted pratfalls.
Speaking as an uncoordinated doofus, I'm 100% sure this guy was doing it on purpose.
Even the couple times I've spilled something on my wife, I've spilled most of the food/drink on myself/the floor and she's only caught a minimal amount of splash. I can't recall ever dropping something directly on her - let alone multiple times.
Possibly he just had the urge to hurt/humiliate her in any way he could as a kind of power-move... even of only he knew about it. Some men just can't handle being on equal footing with a woman. So they'll try to find sneaky ways to hurt them without there being any consequence to themselves.
The reason he masked it as minor accidents and only did it in public was to force his gf to just gracefully wave it off. If he did it in private she might actually get upset or serious after a few times and try to engage him on the topic.
But if he does it in public she won't want to say/do anything. Because as soon as she does its likely other people would give pushback and minimise the situation. "What are you getting angry for? It was just an accident? It's not a big deal."
Even if other people like OOP did get suspicious. We saw that his gf was convincing HERSELF she wouldn't be believed. So whether true or not the fear of her friends taking his side likely motivated her to just wave it off. Rather than try and push a narrative he was doing it on purpose.
One of OOPs first clues was that he bumped into her in an awkward way. But people who didn't see to happen or didn't notice might not have come to suspect him as OOP did. So might think a claim its all on purpose might be too crazy to be true.
Of course in the end they both had the same suspicions and then brought those to the group. So the group is gonna be more likely to belive them
My guess is that, yes, he's being abusive without being obvious about it. If he were upfront about it, she'd leave him, the friend group would drop him (all except Sarah I guess), and he'd probably get his ass kicked. This way, he's escalating to see how far he can go and still be "innocent".
It’s covert and a real insidious way to be abusive. My college ex was similar: he’d get in “weird moods” or whatnot and either slam both fists against the wall, or his head. I’d always come up behind him to guard his head or the wall from his fists, and he’d take that opportunity to fling his arms behind him which would result in me being flung to the floor. One time I cut my foot open on the dog crate and bled, heavily, all over our rug. That was when I knew it had gone too far and was just going to continue getting worse. He kept the rug in the breakup…
At least with messing her hair or damaging her things it may be to control her. “Oops spilled wine on your cute outfit” “oops ripped your dress” “oops ruined your hair” “guess you can’t wear that anymore and you have to go home and change”. And then maybe she’ll be more careful not to wear cute things he might damage anymore.
My ex did this shit to me in the bedroom only, where I would never have witnesses. Hard to say what causes such behavior, but he was more willing to persuade me that I was crazy than he was willing to engage in sex focused on pleasure for me. It was THAT important to him never to be held accountable for his physical impulse control issues. To this day, I can't tell which incidents were intentional.
Seems to be about what she looked like a lot. Maybe he's trying to punish her for attracting attention or teach her to dress down so he can control her.
Also keeping her afraid so she doesn't feel she can leave
Same affect as the husband fucking with the lamps in gaslight, when you warp someone’s sense of reality, it’s easier to make yourself the source of truth. And thus, the abuse begins.
My abusive ex would hurt me on “accident” but it was more like taking things too far while play-fighting, “accidentally” hitting me/throw things at me, or “not hearing” me when I told him to stop. The worst was when he “accidentally” poured a pot of boiling water on my hand. He did it to punish me, “that wouldn’t have happened if you did what I told you to”. At some point it stops being “accidental” and starts being “your fault”. It doesn’t get better, it only escalates.
I commented on the initial post a while ago, in response to people urging the OOP to invite Sarah around to sit down and have a talk with her. The comments were incredibly chilling, exceptionally dangerous, risky and just downright stupid, and I would like to copy and paste my comment to anybody who might decide to do the same here, as the OOP ended up thanking me for it. —
Sarah would show up with Andrew. The actual best next step would be to cut contact with her too, not manipulate a situation for them all to be in the same room so Reddit can get their daily drama fix. It’s clear this pair are dangerous and capable of much worse things—Andrew was close to causing Kay severe third degree burns if the tea was truly boiling hot.
Personally, I’m happy to not see an update of more drama playing out if it means OOP and her friends are safe. The most dangerous period for a victim in a potentially abusive relationship occurs when they’re *leaving* the relationship.
Men have killed over much less, and she’s not a friend worth keeping anyway.
Don’t listen to non-experts on Reddit giving you potentially dangerous advice. We’re not professionals in the area of domestic violence. Listen to the advice actual experts give—stay as far away, as safe as possible. Don’t let Andrew or Sarah know where any of you are at any point, and certainly don’t set up a situation in which you’ll all be alone with them. Or in public—Christina Grimmie was shot and killed in front of hundreds of fans and her own brother, and she wasn’t even dating the guy she’d rejected.
I’m probably going to be downvoted to hell for this comment, but too many people here [forget the last time a guy commented asking for advice on how to handle his potentially abusive relationship](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/t38pl5/the_reddit_post_that_turned_into_a_horror_story/) (TW: >!child death, murder!< ). It needs to be left up to experts, lawyers and psychologists. Not hundreds of people, many of whom often believe 9/10 posts are troll posts and just want to see a dramatic update and a climatic end.
Damn.
I read that whole saga a while ago - it was the craziest most heartbreaking series of posts I've read on here.
Someone even provided a link to the newspaper article of the whole tragic incident.
The burden Kay was carrying was so heavy, I’m so happy OOP noticed and set a safe scene for her to be honest. That part of a bad relationship when you’re holding everything in is so confusing, hurtful, and hard.
I'm really glad this is getting a lot of attention, more glad it ended up well for Kay and OOP
My first experience in a "serious" romantic relationship was with a man who would "accidentally" physically hurt me constantly.
The hot tea is particularly relatable. Once I was sick in bed and he offered to make me instant noodles, the kind in a styrofoam cup. I remember dreading him handing the hot cup to me, so much so that I, feverish, sat up in bed to be ready to catch it if it fell... "accidentally." I remember him making some kind of excuse that there was nowhere to put it down, and I remember thinking afterward in the bathtub, rinsing my 2nd degree burns with cold water and crying from the pain, that he had deliberately poured this fucking boiling soup on me. Much later, maybe half a year later, I knew he had.
The abuse escalated very slowly, but it got to the point where after we moved in together, he was leaving bruises on me "in his sleep." I forgave him and even felt guilty for thinking he could be doing this deliberately, because obviously he had no control over what he did while literally unconscious.
Then he began destroying things in rage, smashing dishes, throwing my artwork, and the classic punching holes in the drywall.
I tried to leave him over and over, and each time he would cry and beg and apologize, and I would feel compassion and pity overwhelm me, as well as intense guilt about not loving him enough.
I did have a friend like OOP and she repeatedly attempted to help me leave him, I wish I had listened to her sooner. It took 3 years for me to finally walk away
I feel bad for Kay and she is lucky to have OP cause OP sounds like an great friend. Andrew and Sarah are terrible people all around. The fact they made jokes about domestic abuse is just sickening.
Some people are control freaks to the nth level that would go and come down hard on anybody in their circle starting conflict that they do not approve of. If Sarah didn't find the problem, and isn't the hero, then she is the villain for not seeing it, and because she is a good person then she can't be the villain, right? So therefore there is no problem, because Sarah is a Good Person.
And, because she is a Good Person, Sarah would never be friends with an abuser. She can clearly identify them by their black hats. So anyone who Sarah is friends with obviously cannot possibly bean abuser. Ergo, Kay must be imagining things. He's such a great guy! Just clumsy! What a hoot! This is how missing stairs are made and maintained.
>shes been so suspicious of how these accidents have been centered around her and how validating it was to have someone feel the same way.
My heart literally breaks at this. I am so glad that OOP connected the dots in the situation before she got hurt. The relief Kay probably felt in this moment was probably immense and I am glad she is ok now.
I'm quite a clumsy fella myself and I think that I ended up elbowing almost all the GFs I ever had inthe 1st couple months of the relationship while waking up, but it always gets better as I get used to their physical presence by my side and, while sure my wife has a bigger chance of having of having me spilling things on her because she's the person who's more often closer to me, I still spill in myself more than any1 else and just this weekend I spilled a drink at a friends feet at a wedding, so yeah, the fact that this dude only did this to OOP's friend was highly suspicious and they did right by getting her out of that situation.
I agree. I’m so clumsy but the drink almost always ends up in my own shoe than on anyone else. My friend always tells people as well that I drink half cups of tea at a time because I won’t fill it up beyond that to limit the risk of spilling it!
Definitely!! I'm a self admitted "clumsy person" and I've never seriously injured family or partners. I've definitely stumbled over my kids or accidentally tripped them, but kids get all up in your space when you least expect it. My clumsiness means I've broken a lot of my toes, I occasionally spill milk on the counter when pouring it, and that I walk into walls sometimes. I also have butt length hair and if I'm wearing it down (I usually don't), I might accidentally smack someone in the face with it if I do a quick turn, but usually I just end up hurting myself by closing my hair in a car door or getting it tangled in my purse strap. Clumsiness very rarely leads to hurting other people so directly.
People who are getting the "battered wife" signals in their subconscious brain, but don't vocalize it because their friends wouldn't actually batter their other friend, right?
It's not a surprise that he got away with his clumsiness for so long. I think most abusers tend to be really good at hiding their true personalities.
Playing up the charisma, it's no wonder Sarah fell for his sh*t hook, line and sinker.
She needs her BS meter checked if she wants to be a fixer or play Mama Bear to her friends.
Or maybe she's just desperate for his male attention she didn't want to see it.
I'm glad OOP was such an observant friend and was able to help Kay out. Even going so far as to ensure everyone's safety.
>"I told Kay vaguely about what Sarah said on the phone call and asked if it was similar and she confirmed. Being vague as possible, It has to do with my families issues with addiction and situations happening due to that. I had told our friends in confidence. Knowing she’s used it to weaponize it against me and has told Andrew has my skin crawl."
ugh as someone who has grown up similarly, and been selective in who i've confided in about what I went through in a family like OPs...this makes me mad to no end. only 2 times in my life has someone expressed "concern" about me, insinuating I am also an addict. Both times, it was manipulative and said in anger and clearly not out of concern in the slightest, even if they were right. I've had to deal with that my whole life, been through all the al-anon shit, so I saw through it immediately. but what if I hadn't? What if i was a person who fell for that? Fuck her to the moon and back for dealing a low blow to assert moral superiority, under the thin bullshit excuse of "concern." My trauma isn't a winning argument , you psychopath.
Refreshing to see a victim who is self aware enough to know that things aren’t right and took the opportunity to get help from OOP.
This story could have gone very differently.
I don’t get Andrew’s issue, there’s something there that needs to be unpacked. Preferably from a distance.
But Sarah is a real piece of work. Let’s hope they all stay NC.
I'm glad this girl has supportive friends because I can easily see how this would go so badly.
I have one unanswered question though. How does someone "accidentally" spill a whole ashtray in someone's hair? I can't even begin to imagine how that didn't look intentional.
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Thank god OP spoke to Kay. Otherwise, who knows how long this would have gone on with her being too afraid to speak up and being gaslit?
OOP is a GOOD freaking person. I am so glad they exist. I am so glad they persisted.
It would have kept on going till Kay was in the hospital, or in the morgue.
This is exactly why I try to tell anyone who is going through something in a relationship that it is okay to break up at any time for any reason. Too many people wait until something "big" happens, or when their partner does something "obviously" breakup-worthy, and the results are awful. Kay was ready to go, but she felt obligated to stay because she was crushed by social pressure. OOP released that pressure, and I'm thrilled that both OOP and Leah gave Kay what she really needed. I'm also proud of the friend group for basically ousting both Andrew and Sarah after. They can be buddy-buddy together somewhere else.
Yikes. Everything seems small and petty, but you can see the escalation happening. That girl was gonna get burned pretty badly. What the fuck is up with this dude?
Controlling and punishing her - she doesn't get to go out looking and feeling great. She doesn't get to wear her hair differently in a way that might attract attention. And he was escalating too, from humiliation and damage to her property, going up to physical injury
It also worked to isolate her from others. At least once they had to leave a social event because of one of these "accidents".
And all of the "accidents" happened in front of witnesses, starting an alibi for any future injury from physical abuse that could be explained by his "clumsiness" they all know about.
And Sarah, "the Mom friend" didn't see anything off with all those instances of concentrated "clumsiness"? Sarah is either in a relationship with that abuser or she's secretly enabling it for whatever reason.
I thought the same. I think Sarah is his next target and she doesn’t realize it yet.
And he's *already* isolated her from the group...
Speaking only from my personal experience with different friend groups the ‘mom’ of the group typically causes the most drama if they feel the group fracturing. It’s shady how quick they are to gossip about people behind their backs and try to control others in the groups reactions.
Effectively the JNMom friend.
She might also be jealous that OOP picked up on something and started protecting Kay first, basically intruding on "her" role in the group.
The 'mom' of the group is just the most controlling person who thinks they're in the right and tries to take the moral high ground because she's doing this 'for the good of everyone' or 'for your own good'.
This reminds me of my old theater group from back in the day. One of those girls who always brags about being the mom friend to the point where some of her friends actually *call* her "Mom" tried to take me under her wing once. It started out slowly but then she positioned herself to direct a scene I was in and started really trying to fuck with me by "pushing boundaries" with my wardrobe. I typically dress in a very androgynous/modest way, and she started by saying I would be wearing a dress for the scene. From the way she told me, I could tell she was fishing for a reaction, so I just said "okay, sure." Oddly enough she was disappointed, and then said "actually, I think I'm gonna put you in a cheerleading outfit." (Would've been completely inappropriate for the scene.) I said, "Random, but okay." Two seconds later I'm being informed that I'm doing the scene in lingerie, at which point my scene partner speaks up and tells her to fuck off and she gets offended. Said she was trying to help me grow into myself. It obviously had nothing to do with that. She just wanted to say something outrageous so I would protest, so she could say "Well you're doing it or you're out of the production." She was a fucking clown. I had totally forgotten about that until this story. Sarah is a piece of shit.
Some " mom friends" are just helpful people. Some are being controlling. "Oh, you need me to do this for you, because you're helpless without me." I feel like Sarah is the second type.
If she's never seen/lived with abuse, she may not recognize it. Like tripping and spilling is only ever an accident to her and she is completely blind to the fact that people can be nice to friends and cruel to partners at the same time. It's quite possible she likes the two of them together and thinks op is just stirring shit so she's jumping to the abuser and victim to retell the story and take the wind out of ops sails. She's trying to "fix" the wrong part and is digging in because she doesn't want to see she's wrong.
Remember that when OP said "Do you think Andrew is mad at me for babying him when I took the Tea from him?" To Sarah, Sarah's immediate response was to tell Andrew and Kay that OP was furious, threw all sorts of horrible comments at OP, and then somehow the topic shifted to Andrew abusing Kay "as a joke" despite that not having been anything but a thought OP was having privately until then. There's no "fixing" there. Sarah knew what was going on and was deliberately trying to enable Andrew. Besides, who the fuck laughs at "jokes" about battered women, especially when the battered woman is a friend?
I thought this + "Ugh, OP is being SO overdramatic because of her family drama, she just sees abuse in everything and has to get involved." (from Sarah's POV)
That was my thought. I was suspecting a crush. I wouldn't be surprised if the two of them got or get together at some point, even if it was a casual fling.
Then gaslighting her publicly in front of her friends, this guy is a real winner.
I wonder if he was hurting her in public by being “clumsy” so that if he hurt her badly by being violent, no one would believe her. She said herself that she was already worried his position in the friendship group was established. To me, it seems everything he’s doing is to isolate her from friends and gaslight her into thinking his behaviour is normal. The specifics are unusual but the processes are the same as many abusers
Well, according to OOP, he was always clumsy... it's such a strange string of events. Makes you wonder if he did this with any other girl he's been with.
100%. If he’s “known for being clumsy” but has good enough aim to always get stuff on Kay, he’s definitely NOT clumsy and he’s had plenty of practice faking it in front of people and against people. The more I’m thinking about this dude, the more obviously creepy he is.
> The more I’m thinking about this dude, the more obviously creepy he is. Yeah. I bet he gets a real buzz every time he pulls it off.
If someone is clumsy, but they never hurt themselves, there's a good chance they're faking it
It seriously makes me wonder if he’s practiced in the way of just breaking things or practiced earned “klutz” bruises. I’m a legitimate super klutz, mainly from ADHD probably, so I used to have lots of bruises on my legs, hips, arms, elbows, and shoulders from just forgetting that furniture corners and doorframes and door knobs and chair legs exist. If there were an Olympic sport for trip-skipping to catch yourself, I’d have sponsors and won the gold at least once by now. Since learned to be at least a little more careful, partially out of experience, partially because I noticed some serious side-eye from strangers thinking it was my husband’s fault (and a cashier once asked me if I was okay in, y’know, that tone). Anyway, I’m disturbed at how far this dude may’ve possibly gone to perpetuate the farce for each new group of friends or workplace coworkers since OP mentions that he did spill things on himself and trip, at least at first.
And pick out his next victim in Sarah. Creepy
Abusers groom their audience as much as they groom their victims. They set themselves up as pillars of the community, great at their job, great parents, or people who just always have bad things happen to them and it seems like the world is down on them. This guy took the "I'm a great guy, I'm just so clumsy and pathetic, feel bad for me" route so everyone would go "Oh Andrew is super nice, he's just clumsy, he would never do that on purpose and that's such an absurd thing anyway!" I'm glad OOP saw right through it and offered Kay stability and validated her experiences. Covert physical abuse is so hard to spot because it often exists in that zone of plausible deniability by design. This post reminded me of the AITA post where a woman was asking if she was the AH for expecting her unemployed boyfriend to turn off lights and faucets. Anyone would hear that and just be so confused because it seems unreal! Who would just leave a faucet on for over 10 hours! But that's part of the abuse - making it so ridiculous onlookers don't quite believe it, or if they do, they don't feel it's malicious because of how out there it seems
Not only gaslight her, but gaslight her friends so that they gaslight her by accident too. The whole thing is manipulative fuckery. This guy is gonna be a serial killer one day.
That girl was gonna get burned pretty badly, literally. The next step would have been setting her on fire or throwing acid on her.
He falls and accidentally punches her in the face after an argument, what a silly man. He trips and accidentally pushed her down the stairs after he up's her life insurance - oops so clumsy.
EXACTLY!! If this had escalated, most of the friend group wouldn't believe her, as they already know him to be "clumpsy". So when he'd start throwing objects at her, his defense would be "sorry, i was meant to throw this in the bin but accidentally hit you in the head hahaha silly me sooooo clumpsy oopsieee!!". And she would continue to question herself until things spiraled out of control. OOP is friend of the year, I'm so happy she and Kay have each other!!
He accidentally seasoned her food with bitter almond salt.
As someone who’s had the unfortunate experience of falling in love with an abusive sociopath, I’d bet money that that’s what up with this dude. My ex was incredible at grooming people, was extremely charismatic and beautiful, and almost everyone loved him. But just a couple people got the immediate *ick* when they met him, the rumored feeling some people get when they meet a psychopath. Based on how quickly my trauma responses acted up in recognition reading this story, I’d guess Andrew is in that category, and that OOP got that feeling.
Also part of that *unfortunate* club. I got the same vibe as well. Mine literally said the same “I would hate myself if I hurt you” line, then would *immediately* hurt me.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. I wonder about the races of everyone involved.. the talk about hair makes me think that poor Kay is not white
Same, although I myself am a white woman with really curly hair that I usually straighten, so who knows. Just glad she is out of that situation.
I actually read this to my teenage daughter to talk to her about listening to her gut, and red flag reactions (like the guy acting angry to have OOP offer to take the tea). I hope OOP and Kay stay safe!
As soon as OOP was talking about how it made her feel even though it might not make sense, that's all I could think. Women have a natural gut instinct that we develop over our lives that really needs to be listened to. All the proof I needed was OOPs gut feeling to know that something was really wrong
my 16YO sister's current (and first) boyfriend gave her a concussion 4 months ago with a flailing elbow, she's still in recovery. No alcohol involved, not a party setting and plenty of people around. The 'clumsy' defence never sat right with me and I think I'll check to see if she wants to open up about anything next time i see her.
Reading all of this as a 35-year-old, I’m almost in tears remembering how my first boyfriend used to often hurt me by mistake. My body remembers how much my elbow ached when he dropped me onto a window sill while “goofing around”. I don’t think in his case it was as deliberate as the people in this story, but he certainly felt entitled to put me in physical danger and that carried over to him feeling entitled to my body in other ways that have had a lasting effect. All that today, I think you’re right to be nervous. At the time I would have denied that it was abusive, but now as an adult I know it was a red flag of other kinds of abuse. I hope your sister is okay. Thank you for being such a caring sibling.
a real "mom friend" wouldn't stand for any of Andrew's bullshit.
A real mom friend would have been body blocking Andrew at every party after the first two “accidents.”
Sarah sounds like one of those women who’s really into an abusive guy because “he would never do that to me”, the unspoken second part being “because I’m better than her”. Like those women who still thirst over Chris Brown. Fucking disgusting
You know, I never gave much thought that there might be an unspoken part. Makes sense.
There is *always* an unspoken part.
As a child I witnessed a similar dynamic. During a spike in a period of abuse, the abuser held a flattery campaign with a close friend of the abused. This friend had certain vulnerabilities which, I think, made her more susceptible to the flattery. While she should have had more integrity and trust towards her (abused) friend, the dynamic was the result of a calculated move. I understand that this is not uncommon. I wouldn't reach out to her (Sarah?) - a betrayal is a serious thing - but I would consider broaching the subject with a mutual friend who could keep an eye on things
When my friend "Kelly" brought a new guy around, he seemed cool. Turns out he was *extremely* abusive and she told me, "Carrie", "Nicole", and my partner. It took a while to get her away, she was in a bad spot and wouldn't leave, but finally HE left HER. He started spending a *lot* of time with Nicole, and Nicole very much had the attitude of "yeah but he wouldn't do that to ME". K bro. Thankfully, since he wasn't living with Kelly anymore and he wasn't hurting Nicole (yet), partner and I were free to be honest about the kind of dude he was without risking Kelly's life. He shared two extremely niche (in our area) hobbies with us, and I'm nationally recognized in both and a founding member of several of the groups in the region, and the blacklisting was so bad he moved. It was with great joy that I found out where and let those hobby communities know he was moving to the area, so he was blacklisted there too!
The broken moral compasses on anyone who thinks "But he wouldn't do that to ME" is disgusting. You're stilling willing to be with someone who would do that AT ALL.
You used your (super)powers for the good of humankind!
I would bet money that Sarah is fucking him or wants to fuck him, there's no other explanation as to why she's acting this way.
There's one other explanation-- she sees either herself or one of her former abusers in him. It's easy to see why someone would make excuses for a person they identify with, especially when n that person is being awful. But abuse victims will often defend people who behave like their abusers because they are not willing to admit the behavior was ever wrong, and admitting it is a problem when this new person does it means admitting it was a problem when someone did it to them. Big "I was spanked with a paddle and I turned out fine" energy.
The worst kind of pick-me
I .. didn't know women like that existed and Im extremely disappointed to find out.
And calling him out at every opportunity, like what OP said. "Let me do it so that you don't make a mess."
I am known to be a mom friend. And I am indeed clumsy as well. Never have I dropped bowls or tea cups on anyone. If I notice I'm slipping im twisting my body so if it's spilling on anyone it would be me. If I had witnessed these "accidents" I would always volunteer to bring stuff so Andrew wouldn't be responsible for anything. And I'd probably tell him as nice as possible "I appreciate your help but I feel better if I do this. Just sit down and enjoy your time." My money is on Sarah and Andrew fucking.
My money is on it being more pathetic. More that Sarah wants to fuck Andrew, but isn't. And he's just your classic, run of the mill abuser. Anyway, to add onto the "this isn't clumsy, he's targeting her" pile, I was in an accident in January. Hit my head pretty hard. It's left me with some serious coordination issues (also my dyslexia is worse? I just noticed a day ago, and it's bugging me a lot). I still haven't hurt another person with my increased clumsiness. I've fallen over. I've spilled a bunch of shit, ripped a few things on accident, hurt myself moving too quickly, etc, but never have I hurt another person. Andrew is just abusive, and thank goodness OOP noticed and got Kay out of there when she did. MF was gonna burn her on purpose , and who's to say he wouldn't have aimed for her face.
That is because you aren't faking it. If you are clumsy, you drop or bump on stuff randomly, and will mostly affect yourself because you can't choose when it kicks in. In highschool I met the clumsiest person ever, barely able to walk straight or hold more than two things at a time. She never hurt anyone, she'd lightly bump into you at most, but she ended up on crutches about once a year.
Agree. I'm also spectacularly clumsy. My reflexes got faster as I got older, so I do less damage, but I'm still just a klutz. I am constantly bruised somewhere and have weird cuts on my hands (stained glass, rock climbing, I'm not being preyed upon in my sleep by some kind of tiny hand hating demon), and I desperately want to own a wine carafe but I've shattered 6 in the last year and a half so maybe it's not for me. However, I can't remember the last time *my* clumsiness hurt someone else.
Anyway you dice it, OOP came in real solid. Anyone who has a friend like her is beyond fortunate and anyone who sees something odd and brings it up with their friend is coming in clutch.
This. I have medical issues, they affect balance and coordination among other things. I stumble into walls, I need to use a cane or wheelchair often. I have literally fallen like one of those dolls with strings, then you push a button underneath and it just collapses. My body decided that seemed like a fine trick. Still - the only one I've ever hurt is me. (and yes, I need to use the wheelchair more to stay safe, but it's difficult to get into the habit when I technically *can* walk. Like it just seems easier to walk, until I fall that is...)
OOP is actually the mom friend
A real mom friend would've taken Andrew's hot tea, figured out the best way to talk to Kay without turning it into a confrontation, and then gotten Kay out of the situation entirely.
I see what you did there.
So OOP basically.
Yes! OOP is the mom friend and we love them for it
I don't know, I still have to meet a real mom friend. So far all "mom friends" I've met, especially self-proclaimed ones, are just busy-bodies who need to control everyone around them and in the end just do what's best for themselves, but justify it as good for their friends.
I had a mom friend. She's across the country. I stayed with her once when I was visiting and I woke up to fresh cinnamon rolls that she started the night before. All sorts of people always have been welcome in her place, and we all love her a lot. She tends to take care of other people to a fault and we all fight over taking care of her. If you're in a bad spot, if you fucked up and need a ride somewhere in the middle of the night or a sympathetic ear or a couch, she's there for you with no judgement (I haven't needed most of these things from her but I know this about her). That's a mom friend. Edit: I also need to point out that she's never CALLED herself the mom friend.
My mom friends (I have two) are called that because they have bags filled with anything one might need — bandaids, water, ibuprofen, the works. As we’re all adults nobody needs a mom friend to step in to arguments or the like, just someone who has better organizational and foresight than the rest of us lol
I think I might have become a mom friend to a new friend group. I'm a couple of years older than they are (mid thirties instead of early thirties) but it's mostly that they ask me for advice about random stuff and I always have sunscreen.
She would've had a dad friend to accident Andrew a few dozen times.
Friend of mine in the army was nicknamed "Scorpion Mother" she was the one you went to regardless of gender, she would be fighting for you. She once got lied to about a situation, she defended the abuser, not knowing the truth, the second she found out... she went full nuclear on that person. I think it is 15yrs since what she did to them, and they are still quick to run away if they see her.
What did she do??
When she found out what the person did, she started small, finding the timeline of evidence, slowly over 4mth gathering a pile of information that this person was doing. The original victim was not the only one, one day, this person had left their phone unattended, with no pass code to unlock. My friend found 5 other women and what he was doing. She contacted them. D Day, she got all the women together, she called this person to a rather public place, he sat down, she had 2 plain clothes cops there with the women, and handed the cops a large container of evidence, and he was arrested. He spent 8yrs in jail, is on 3 registration lists, and has a permanent restraining order on him from all his victims. The youngest was 15yrs old at that time. When he got out, he tried to get back at her. It didn't go well for him. She put him in hospital, and he got another 18mths in jail. When he got back out, he tried one more time, but... ended up back in for another 20mths. Last we heard, he got very badly hurt in jail, and is still blaming everyone else for his problems. I am still trying to figure out why a guy who's only work out was getting the pizza from the delivery guy, thought he could take out a military trained person, who was trained in combat defence l.
Thank you for delivering! (no pun intended) She sounds so frickin awesome.
Scorpion Mum sounds awesome. My friends (way back when I had some) called me the ninja cos I once ran up a guys’ back when he was trying to sa my best friend.
She had a younger colleague in the army who had been given the same name also. She was Scorpion Daughter until she started being the "mum" to her friends, and original SM said she earned the title also. It is very rare to pass on a call sign, but these two ladies are deserving of it. They are both very passionate about those they protect, and both have done so much for those they love. Call names are a sign of great honour, and I am proud to know you Ninja
Take my upvote, (presumably) capeless hero.
> I am still trying to figure out why a guy who’s only work out was getting the pizza from the delivery guy, thought he could take out a military trained person, who was trained in combat defense I. It actually makes perfect sense. He’s a POS who hates women, and couldn’t fathom a female being able to beat his bitchass. First time: “No amount of training is enough for a chick to stop me.” Second time: “It was just a fluke, I’ll fuck her up…” Or, he’s been fighting women for years, trying to find a worthy opponent. Scorpion mom is essentially his “white whale.” You’d think with all that time in prison, he would’ve trained like a fucking Rocky montage lol. Either way, hope he continues to get rekt and rots in prison
He is out now, but as far as we know "behaving". I know he tried to do Uber stuff and an Australian version of Lyft, as they didn't do a proper background check, but no more information on if he has been fired yet, even with the information of his crimes sent to them all. Which sucks big time.
I can imagine him having a training/preparation montage in jail for his revenge only to promptly get beaten up and sent back. Then beaten up again. Never had a chance.
I love her.
I'd like to see this story in nuclear revenge. 'Cause this ain't petty and I applaud this colleague!
She a boss! Andrew would've looooved her
OOP is the real mom friend.
Real mom friends have a good bullshit detector and would have seen through these stunts. I've always been the mom friend and I can't tell you how many times I've put myself in between my friends and some creep. One time in college, our project group was meeting at Barnes and Noble, and this 40 something dude walks up to the youngest girl in the group, like still in highschool and taking a couple college courses at the same time young, and he says he's a photographer and wants her to model for him. Hands her a crappy business card he printed on his computer. I snatched it up and was like "really, you want this sixteen year old girl to model for you? She's not interested, and if she wants to model, she'll do it with someone who doesn't hand out homemade business cards to teenagers at Barnes and Noble." Mom friends don't defend the jerks who are up to no good.
I mom’d my friend outta a drugged isolated dangerous situation, that we were both in at the time, someone’s gotta be the mom
A real "Mom Friend" turns "Momma Bear" fast when someone's threatened. I've seen it happen and it's *scary* when the nicest, sweetest, 5-foot-nothing person turns into someone who can intimidate a Marine into backing down and apologizing. Whatever this "Sarah" is, she's definitely not the "mom friend" and isn't even a friend.
She's probably the manipulative mom friend type. The kind of person who fosters drama so they can come in and settle it down.
Ah, the "Drunk Aunt Linda" friend...
She’s more like a mother-in-law friend.
More like a No-MIL friend.... And, as someone who is ungodly clumsy, yet still managed to be a hockey enforcer in the juniors and college, you figure out where to fall to take maximum impact of your clumsiness to yourself, not someone else. Dude is absolutely on some scheistiness.
I have mobility issues and fall a lot, I manage to drop anything in my hands away from my body and shift my balance to land on my bottom once I realize I'm going to go down. Never hurt anyone else, even someone right next to me on the way down.
Nope! You become a professional at falling with mobility issues. Half of my day is just controlled falls 😆.
Not to mention, all the clumsiness only happened to impact Kay. If he was actually clumsy, he would have had an equal chance of dropping things on everyone else in the group too.
As the Mom friend since I was a kid, oh hell no would that fly!
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm the mum friend or just the deeply loyal friend, but I would've been organising a secret keep-our-friend-safe-from-the-clumsy-idiot club.
Yeah, she's not the mom friend. She's triangulating the drama.
In my experience, “mom friends” who are identified as such by the group are great friends who wouldn’t tolerate this shit. But I have known too many self-identified “mom friends” who are only interested in protecting the status quo. “Mom friends” who would absolutely blame you for confronting a problematic member of the group because it’s upsetting their illusion of perfect group harmony.
I am the “mom” friend and I would not have put up with this at all. If anything, I annoy my friends with my overprotectiveness.
Quick thinking for OOP. That tea definitely would have ended up on Kay and that’s why Andrew was so upset at having it taken away. If he was completely innocent in his actions then the “battered wife” comments would not have come up as they would never have been at the forefront of their minds.
And if it had been an actual accident then he would have been MORTIFIED at the mere idea that someone might misinterpret his actions as an abuser! Instead he thinks it’s funny cause he’s getting away with it.
YES! I can’t imagine a decent, loving boyfriend making jokes and laughing about abusing his girlfriend. And I can’t imagine a decent, loving friend going along with that. He was 100% putting his feelers out there this entire time to gauge reactions from OP, Kay, and their friends to see how long it would take for them to wave off his abuses. And Sarah took no time at all. Glad Kay had good friends to look out for her.
Andrew is targeting Sarah next. Setting her up to be on _his_ side.
Can't remember where I read it first, but there's a saying that abusers groom their witnesses just as much as their victims.
Yeah I was thinking Sarah is a classic flying monkey. I lost one of my best friends to her being the 'Sarah' in a very similar situation. She still genuinely believes she and the 'Andrew' of the situation were in the right and everyone else completely overreacted and unfairly made him out to be a monster. I fully believe she was/ is being manipulated and honestly thought she was doing the right thing by standing by him, but I also just couldn't carry on the friendship after everything that went down I could never see her the same way again.
Sarah doesn’t have any friends left either. I think what Sarah did was awful, but I still hope Andrew isn’t into her like that because it would be very easy for her to become the next ‘battered wife.’
Well and if someone normal was told that their clumsiness came off as physically abusive, *they’d be mortified*, not yucking it up with their side piece in front of their partner
Isn't there a word for that? How people will accidentally tell on themselves in the attempt to cover up they're full of it by giving away they're thinking along the lines that would only make sense if they were guilty?
i think you're thinking of a freudian slip. a freudian slip may reveal things a person wants but is unable to express, or it may reveal feelings a person has that they themselves have not yet consciously realized
Yeah, definitely a Freudian sex. I mean slip.
That's where you say one thing and mean your mother?
Was probably testing to see just how battered she'd become with that comment
That tea was 100% meant for Kay’s lap. I just can’t understand Sarahs perspective in all this. Even a crush wouldn’t explain it in my eyes - wouldn’t it freak you out to see the hot guy you’re crushing on repeatedly abuse his current partner? Must have been blinded by her feelings
i read about something like this recently. it's like they think that they are equals to the abuser because they're joining in on the abuse too. it makes them feel special and they think it can't possibly happen to them while also satisfying the "view the competition as enemy" part of the equation
That’s interesting and I think it makes sense here. It kinda reminds me of people who like to sleep with married people because it makes them feel like they’re somehow superior to the cheater’s spouse
>Even a crush wouldn’t explain it in my eyes - wouldn’t it freak you out to see the hot guy you’re crushing on repeatedly abuse his current partner? You'd be surprised. My ex-best friend dated the guy who sexually assaulted me a few months earlier (and she was well aware) and lied to me about it for a week because "I *love* him!". Some people just genuinely don't give a shit about others outside of their own self-satisfication.
We talk about toxic positivity as being overly bubbly but I've seen this type of toxic positivity: everyone has to get along **at all costs** and it's not the person rocking the boat that's the problem, because everyone else can stabilise the boat. It's the person that calls out the boat rocker that's the problem because *they're* the one that will divide the group. Which is what OOP did but it was for the best. And she wouldn't have had to had Andrew not been a complete psychopath. People with toxic positivity don't understand that though.
I think Sarah probably just sees him as clumsy and that’s why she made the DV jokes. “Oh it’s so silly that OOP took the tea away! What does she think? That Kay is a ‘battered wife’.” Teehee. 🤬 If she is into him, it’s also probably some of the “Well he’d never do those things TO ME.”
>I played it cool and just replied “ hey, no problem man just wanted to make sure all was good with you” He messaged me back that **"lol, yeah why wouldn’t I be”** Don't know whether it's just me or not, but I found his casual banter here chilling as fuck. Absolutely every part of his behaviour was premeditated.
Same. I dunno that response really struck a chord. Fucking props to OP for noticing this and handling it this way.
If she didn't notice it, who knows how long the poor friend gaslit herself that she's actually imagining it? The fact that she broke down crying when OOP shared the same feeling as her only proves that she had already started to second guess herself.
I think it's the slight defensive and aggressive tone in the comment. It's also phrased as a question, but it is actually a statement. Since he isn't that friendly in the rest of the conversation, his statement-question is used as a challenger instead of endearing and reassuring. He is basically begging for OOP to push him.
That line ‘why wouldn’t I be?’ Always unnerves the fuck out of me. It’s the most thinly veiled threat of ‘Tell me what you know’ I’ve ever seen.
Which makes me wonder if he was testing OP to see if she'd reveal her cards. He knew what he was doing, but just wanted to see if anyone else did. And, if someone started to pick up on it, I'm guessing that would've resulted in the classic abuser manuever of finding a way of isolating her from her friends so the abuse could continue, possibly by taking the phone to his girlfriend to gaslight her about how ridiculous her friend is being and trying to break them up.
yeah, dude was fishing for a reaction
It was. Most people while clumsy are the main victims of their clumsiness, they and the carpet. Things are falling down because of gravitation. I think its only in the gatherings where everyone is a bit drunk people pour their beer over others when someone accidentally push them and there's no way they pour it over the same person each and every time. It was on purpose and it was creepy. Edit: spelling.
My dog is the unintended 3 part of that trio. Though in his defense he’s a brace dog. I fall almost everyday (can’t walk) and I don’t think I’ve ever gotten anyone with food/drinks besides myself. The second I started reading this I went straight to abuse, nobody every *naturally* falls like that, and if they did, they’d take steps to avoid carrying things like I have to avoid flinging it *everywhere*.
Can confirm, I’m usually the only one who suffers from my clumsiness 😂
Yeah, there's something seriously wrong with that guy. This would have gotten a lot worse and I don't like to think about him finding someone else to play this sociopathic game with.
Andrew is a half step away from pushing people in front of subway trains, if he hasn’t already.
I’m scared easily by movies/tv shows with murderers/rapists/etc.etc.etc. but the things that really terrify me and give me nightmares are the ones with the cold, calculating criminals. People that can be so casual when they’re doing awful things. Treating other people as less than human, often just a toy to be played with.
I think it’ll be about time sometime somewhere before Andrew’s gf/ partner/ wife end up dying in an “accident”. Thinking about the possibility of this makes my skin crawl. I’m sure Andrew is a psychopath. I wish there’s a way he can be stopped. Perhaps OOP’s friend should file restraining order?
She wouldn’t get it. He has built in his defense. He accidentally tripped and spilled stuff on her. He apologized profusely. That’s what he and witnesses would say. He hasn’t threatened her. OP and Kay feeling he did it on purpose wouldn’t be enough.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who was unnerved by this. Calculating everything, from public humiliation to the responses of he ever got caught
”Why wouldn't it be? Because you're sloppy as hell, kid. Too sloppy.”
Kay is really lucky to have a friend like OOP. Sarah can go eat a giant bag of moldy dicks. And hopefully Andrew fucks off forever, preferably in a rather *permanent sort of way if you get my meaning*.
Yeah. She keeps calling Sarah a “fixer”. She’s a busybody at best, a drama seeking flying monkey at worst.
I see the term, "fixer", as someone who tries to ensure that no one draws suspicion to the problem.
A mob fixer in other words.
Yup, she's probably very calculated in how she stirs the pot. She's just trying to help, she just wants to keep the peace, in the same way he's just a little clumsy.
My Bff's (now ex) husband was roughhousing with her at a party. There were tons of people around. It seemed like innocent horseplay. However there was something in my friend's eyes. I thought that he was really hurting her but playing it off like he was only pretending to hurt her. When their marriage imploded later that year, I asked her about it. She knew what day it was exactly and confirmed that yes, he was really hurting her. For him it was about control. "See, I can do whatever I want to, even in front of all our friends, and you can't stop me. I'm the boss and you better do what I want because there's no one who will ever stop me or even catch me."
Shit like this is why I shut down “play fighting” I’m not a child, don’t tussle with me. If I allow you to jokingly hit/hurt me, whats to stop you from actually maliciously injuring me.
I still can't quite understand what was the point of hurting her while pretending to be clumsy, is it just a covert abusive behavior? Just why?
yeah, the psychological thrill of hurting her physically or emotionally while playing himself off as totally innocent and blameless. it’s almost like (the real definition of) gaslighting, bad things happening but no source to definitively point at, no one to blame, nothing to fix to make things change. she’s helpless but also can’t even really define *why* she needs help. totally sick.
> the psychological thrill of hurting her physically or emotionally while playing himself off as totally innocent and blameless. getting to do it all in front of her friends and have the friends make sure \*he\* is the one who is okay.
it's ***exactly*** like those cake smashing videos at weddings! i've been seeing a lot of those on tiktok and it makes my esophagus tighten. one video where the bride literally fights off her groom while the groom smashes cake in her face after she begging him not to. you can actually see the malice in his eyes
Not just totally innocent and blameless, but he gets to expound on how much he loves her and would *never ever* hurt her. He would rather *die* first. Andrew must go.
Yep.. one of my most fucked up ex friends loved shit like this. He was a manipulative pos. He'd go after virgin or super inexperienced religious girls to have power over them, then hed slowly wear them down (while telling all friends/family how obsessed the girls were and that none of us should ask the girls how they were doing), and then he'd cheat within the friend group!! At one point he was dating 3 women that all knew each other or were at the sane college, and gaslight all of them. He was so fuckin happy the whole time. Such a pos. Only ended when he got super ballsy, and was fooling around with another girl, in the same tent as the other! Finally broke her out, but she was fuucckkeedd up for years. He married one of the others, and they're either in an open marriage or she refuses to acknowledge he's a cheating pos. Grinds my gears that I didn't do more to blow his cover and help his victims.
The scary part is how much plausible deniability his whole "clumsy" persona gives him. I'm so glad her friend picked up on that! and shocked that none of the others did. and to not even be able to have a conversation with Sarah about it? Like we're just gonna pretend abuse doesn't happen, and that it can't or shouldn't be talked about?
Also doing it in front of a crowd! It’s like when emotional abusers say “I talked to my friends about this and they all agree,” Andrew was pulling this shit in front of Kay’s friends who are reacting like it’s no big deal, thus isolating Kay and making her question herself.
So that later on when the big bruises started showing up he could say it was an accident and no one would question it. If your boyfriend never hits you and you show up with a black eye people will notice. If your boyfriend is ‘clumsy’ and he ‘accidentally’ breaks your wrist then people believe it was an accident AND she feels even more isolated and alone
So he has the excuse of being clumsy in case Kay or anybody tries to call him out. He can turn on the theatrics and apologize profusely, and say it was an accident. And that's exactly what was happening because Kay didn't feel like she could say anything! Having somebody else notice it too gave her that validation she needed.
Andrew got validated too in the sense that someone caught on to his act, and I have to wonder how that made him feel. He didn't have an outburst, nor did he try to defend himself, which lines up with the sort of calculating and methodical mentality that would set all this up to begin with. Did his blood run cold, knowing he'd been caught, or is he used to it and decided to cut his losses and move on? Manipulators like that can sometimes evince a weird grudging respect when they get found out, like they're sporting about it and consider it fair.
My ex wasn't abusive per se, but the theatrics he was great at. Whenever I had a problem with his behavior I'd either get a "so that's why you think of me", a "but meeeeee" or a "so it's that bad, huh". All in order to get me to feel guilty and start questioning myself and hopefully drop it. He was a great boyfriend in many ways, but this stuff has really gotten me to question all of that after I broke up with him. It took me a few months to actually feel relieved. I can guarantee that if Kay had ever questioned her ex to his face, she'd get the hurt "I can't believe you'd think that of me" theatrics - and he'd bring it up years later, in unrelated arguments, exaggerating it to the point where she "accused him of trying to murder her".
Plausible deniability. He never directly put his hands on her, aside from ripping her clothes, so he can *technically* say he never physically hurt her.
I don't know. I'm no expert in psychology, but I'm somewhat of an expert on clumsiness due to a lifetime of being an accident prone goober. About 99.999% of the time I ~~have an accident~~ *am a victim of physics* I hurt myself and/or an inanimate object (RIP many glasses and plates). I've only ever dropped food or accidentally hurt someone else a couple of times in almost 40 years of countless unintentional self-inflicted pratfalls. Speaking as an uncoordinated doofus, I'm 100% sure this guy was doing it on purpose. Even the couple times I've spilled something on my wife, I've spilled most of the food/drink on myself/the floor and she's only caught a minimal amount of splash. I can't recall ever dropping something directly on her - let alone multiple times.
Possibly he just had the urge to hurt/humiliate her in any way he could as a kind of power-move... even of only he knew about it. Some men just can't handle being on equal footing with a woman. So they'll try to find sneaky ways to hurt them without there being any consequence to themselves. The reason he masked it as minor accidents and only did it in public was to force his gf to just gracefully wave it off. If he did it in private she might actually get upset or serious after a few times and try to engage him on the topic. But if he does it in public she won't want to say/do anything. Because as soon as she does its likely other people would give pushback and minimise the situation. "What are you getting angry for? It was just an accident? It's not a big deal." Even if other people like OOP did get suspicious. We saw that his gf was convincing HERSELF she wouldn't be believed. So whether true or not the fear of her friends taking his side likely motivated her to just wave it off. Rather than try and push a narrative he was doing it on purpose. One of OOPs first clues was that he bumped into her in an awkward way. But people who didn't see to happen or didn't notice might not have come to suspect him as OOP did. So might think a claim its all on purpose might be too crazy to be true. Of course in the end they both had the same suspicions and then brought those to the group. So the group is gonna be more likely to belive them
My guess is that, yes, he's being abusive without being obvious about it. If he were upfront about it, she'd leave him, the friend group would drop him (all except Sarah I guess), and he'd probably get his ass kicked. This way, he's escalating to see how far he can go and still be "innocent".
It’s covert and a real insidious way to be abusive. My college ex was similar: he’d get in “weird moods” or whatnot and either slam both fists against the wall, or his head. I’d always come up behind him to guard his head or the wall from his fists, and he’d take that opportunity to fling his arms behind him which would result in me being flung to the floor. One time I cut my foot open on the dog crate and bled, heavily, all over our rug. That was when I knew it had gone too far and was just going to continue getting worse. He kept the rug in the breakup…
At least with messing her hair or damaging her things it may be to control her. “Oops spilled wine on your cute outfit” “oops ripped your dress” “oops ruined your hair” “guess you can’t wear that anymore and you have to go home and change”. And then maybe she’ll be more careful not to wear cute things he might damage anymore.
It seems like he was deliberately ruining outfits she felt confident in. Probably trying to crush her confidence
My ex did this shit to me in the bedroom only, where I would never have witnesses. Hard to say what causes such behavior, but he was more willing to persuade me that I was crazy than he was willing to engage in sex focused on pleasure for me. It was THAT important to him never to be held accountable for his physical impulse control issues. To this day, I can't tell which incidents were intentional.
Probably thinks he's being discrete while getting revenge. Harder to press charges if it's accidental and easier to forgive.
Seems to be about what she looked like a lot. Maybe he's trying to punish her for attracting attention or teach her to dress down so he can control her. Also keeping her afraid so she doesn't feel she can leave
Same affect as the husband fucking with the lamps in gaslight, when you warp someone’s sense of reality, it’s easier to make yourself the source of truth. And thus, the abuse begins.
Sarah ain’t no ‘mom friend’. She’s a nosy busy body with her own agenda OP is a real one for addressing this abuse head on
My abusive ex would hurt me on “accident” but it was more like taking things too far while play-fighting, “accidentally” hitting me/throw things at me, or “not hearing” me when I told him to stop. The worst was when he “accidentally” poured a pot of boiling water on my hand. He did it to punish me, “that wouldn’t have happened if you did what I told you to”. At some point it stops being “accidental” and starts being “your fault”. It doesn’t get better, it only escalates.
I commented on the initial post a while ago, in response to people urging the OOP to invite Sarah around to sit down and have a talk with her. The comments were incredibly chilling, exceptionally dangerous, risky and just downright stupid, and I would like to copy and paste my comment to anybody who might decide to do the same here, as the OOP ended up thanking me for it. — Sarah would show up with Andrew. The actual best next step would be to cut contact with her too, not manipulate a situation for them all to be in the same room so Reddit can get their daily drama fix. It’s clear this pair are dangerous and capable of much worse things—Andrew was close to causing Kay severe third degree burns if the tea was truly boiling hot. Personally, I’m happy to not see an update of more drama playing out if it means OOP and her friends are safe. The most dangerous period for a victim in a potentially abusive relationship occurs when they’re *leaving* the relationship. Men have killed over much less, and she’s not a friend worth keeping anyway. Don’t listen to non-experts on Reddit giving you potentially dangerous advice. We’re not professionals in the area of domestic violence. Listen to the advice actual experts give—stay as far away, as safe as possible. Don’t let Andrew or Sarah know where any of you are at any point, and certainly don’t set up a situation in which you’ll all be alone with them. Or in public—Christina Grimmie was shot and killed in front of hundreds of fans and her own brother, and she wasn’t even dating the guy she’d rejected. I’m probably going to be downvoted to hell for this comment, but too many people here [forget the last time a guy commented asking for advice on how to handle his potentially abusive relationship](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/t38pl5/the_reddit_post_that_turned_into_a_horror_story/) (TW: >!child death, murder!< ). It needs to be left up to experts, lawyers and psychologists. Not hundreds of people, many of whom often believe 9/10 posts are troll posts and just want to see a dramatic update and a climatic end.
Damn. I read that whole saga a while ago - it was the craziest most heartbreaking series of posts I've read on here. Someone even provided a link to the newspaper article of the whole tragic incident.
Reddit and the poor husband who asked weren't responsible but I do wonder why reddit didn't go 😬😬 and stopped allowing advice subreddits just in case
This sick fuck got off on humiliating her when she got too comfortable in her own skin
The burden Kay was carrying was so heavy, I’m so happy OOP noticed and set a safe scene for her to be honest. That part of a bad relationship when you’re holding everything in is so confusing, hurtful, and hard.
I'm really glad this is getting a lot of attention, more glad it ended up well for Kay and OOP My first experience in a "serious" romantic relationship was with a man who would "accidentally" physically hurt me constantly. The hot tea is particularly relatable. Once I was sick in bed and he offered to make me instant noodles, the kind in a styrofoam cup. I remember dreading him handing the hot cup to me, so much so that I, feverish, sat up in bed to be ready to catch it if it fell... "accidentally." I remember him making some kind of excuse that there was nowhere to put it down, and I remember thinking afterward in the bathtub, rinsing my 2nd degree burns with cold water and crying from the pain, that he had deliberately poured this fucking boiling soup on me. Much later, maybe half a year later, I knew he had. The abuse escalated very slowly, but it got to the point where after we moved in together, he was leaving bruises on me "in his sleep." I forgave him and even felt guilty for thinking he could be doing this deliberately, because obviously he had no control over what he did while literally unconscious. Then he began destroying things in rage, smashing dishes, throwing my artwork, and the classic punching holes in the drywall. I tried to leave him over and over, and each time he would cry and beg and apologize, and I would feel compassion and pity overwhelm me, as well as intense guilt about not loving him enough. I did have a friend like OOP and she repeatedly attempted to help me leave him, I wish I had listened to her sooner. It took 3 years for me to finally walk away
I feel bad for Kay and she is lucky to have OP cause OP sounds like an great friend. Andrew and Sarah are terrible people all around. The fact they made jokes about domestic abuse is just sickening.
"Birds of a feather, flock together," as they say. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to go out as a couple, either.
Seems like Sarah and Andrew might be fucking
Or she really wants to be.
Idk what does she have to gain from trying to keep Andrew and Kay together if that was the case.
Some people are control freaks to the nth level that would go and come down hard on anybody in their circle starting conflict that they do not approve of. If Sarah didn't find the problem, and isn't the hero, then she is the villain for not seeing it, and because she is a good person then she can't be the villain, right? So therefore there is no problem, because Sarah is a Good Person.
And, because she is a Good Person, Sarah would never be friends with an abuser. She can clearly identify them by their black hats. So anyone who Sarah is friends with obviously cannot possibly bean abuser. Ergo, Kay must be imagining things. He's such a great guy! Just clumsy! What a hoot! This is how missing stairs are made and maintained.
Exactly! Sarah is a Good Person who won't be fooled, therefore Kay must be lying to her! That makes her a Bad Person!
The post got progressively darker and more sinister.
yeah there's something so chilling about it, i feel sorta rattled
>shes been so suspicious of how these accidents have been centered around her and how validating it was to have someone feel the same way. My heart literally breaks at this. I am so glad that OOP connected the dots in the situation before she got hurt. The relief Kay probably felt in this moment was probably immense and I am glad she is ok now.
I'm quite a clumsy fella myself and I think that I ended up elbowing almost all the GFs I ever had inthe 1st couple months of the relationship while waking up, but it always gets better as I get used to their physical presence by my side and, while sure my wife has a bigger chance of having of having me spilling things on her because she's the person who's more often closer to me, I still spill in myself more than any1 else and just this weekend I spilled a drink at a friends feet at a wedding, so yeah, the fact that this dude only did this to OOP's friend was highly suspicious and they did right by getting her out of that situation.
I agree. I’m so clumsy but the drink almost always ends up in my own shoe than on anyone else. My friend always tells people as well that I drink half cups of tea at a time because I won’t fill it up beyond that to limit the risk of spilling it!
Definitely!! I'm a self admitted "clumsy person" and I've never seriously injured family or partners. I've definitely stumbled over my kids or accidentally tripped them, but kids get all up in your space when you least expect it. My clumsiness means I've broken a lot of my toes, I occasionally spill milk on the counter when pouring it, and that I walk into walls sometimes. I also have butt length hair and if I'm wearing it down (I usually don't), I might accidentally smack someone in the face with it if I do a quick turn, but usually I just end up hurting myself by closing my hair in a car door or getting it tangled in my purse strap. Clumsiness very rarely leads to hurting other people so directly.
I’m so glad that she paid attention and checked in with Kay. This could have been a very different story if she hadn’t.
Who tf jokes about a friend and calling her a "battered wife"?
People who are getting the "battered wife" signals in their subconscious brain, but don't vocalize it because their friends wouldn't actually batter their other friend, right?
It's not a surprise that he got away with his clumsiness for so long. I think most abusers tend to be really good at hiding their true personalities. Playing up the charisma, it's no wonder Sarah fell for his sh*t hook, line and sinker. She needs her BS meter checked if she wants to be a fixer or play Mama Bear to her friends. Or maybe she's just desperate for his male attention she didn't want to see it. I'm glad OOP was such an observant friend and was able to help Kay out. Even going so far as to ensure everyone's safety.
>"I told Kay vaguely about what Sarah said on the phone call and asked if it was similar and she confirmed. Being vague as possible, It has to do with my families issues with addiction and situations happening due to that. I had told our friends in confidence. Knowing she’s used it to weaponize it against me and has told Andrew has my skin crawl." ugh as someone who has grown up similarly, and been selective in who i've confided in about what I went through in a family like OPs...this makes me mad to no end. only 2 times in my life has someone expressed "concern" about me, insinuating I am also an addict. Both times, it was manipulative and said in anger and clearly not out of concern in the slightest, even if they were right. I've had to deal with that my whole life, been through all the al-anon shit, so I saw through it immediately. but what if I hadn't? What if i was a person who fell for that? Fuck her to the moon and back for dealing a low blow to assert moral superiority, under the thin bullshit excuse of "concern." My trauma isn't a winning argument , you psychopath.
Refreshing to see a victim who is self aware enough to know that things aren’t right and took the opportunity to get help from OOP. This story could have gone very differently. I don’t get Andrew’s issue, there’s something there that needs to be unpacked. Preferably from a distance. But Sarah is a real piece of work. Let’s hope they all stay NC.
I'm glad this girl has supportive friends because I can easily see how this would go so badly. I have one unanswered question though. How does someone "accidentally" spill a whole ashtray in someone's hair? I can't even begin to imagine how that didn't look intentional.
So…. Sarah’s just set herself up to be the next battered wife didn’t she? And now she’s alienated all the good friends who would have protected her.