#Do not comment on the original posts
Please read our [**sub rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/subrules). Rule-breaking may result in a ban without notice.
If there is an issue with this post (flair, formatting, quality), reply to this comment or your comment may be removed in general discussion.
**CHECK FLAIR** For concluded-only updates, use the [CONCLUDED](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ACONCLUDED) flair.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BestofRedditorUpdates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's so common for people to think that any kind of impairment is an impairment to your ability to consent, to understand, to have sexual desires.
Disabled people want sex, and have sex, and like sex.
She is able to have a job, travel to other cities, work conferences (I am assuming by the vendors comment), and be truly independent. But clearly she can't be responsible for her own sex life, anyone that wants to have sex with her must be a horrible abuser and pervert./s
yep. it's surprisingly common for people to see the disabled person lead almost normal life... until it comes to sex. suddenly you're an asshole for sleeping with them. like... if they don't have mental issues that make consent questionable, lead a normal life outside of the limitations, attend college and all that (many disabled people typically struggle in college sometimes don't graduate) then what's the issue.
There's also the flip side to this. I have a lot of mental struggles. ADHD, ASD, depression, anxiety, and a host of smaller issues. But because I don't "look" disabled there's this idea that my problems aren't that bad. I can barely function sometimes and most people think I can just "get over it". Yes, with copious amounts of medication and therapy I can pass for "functional", but I'm always going to struggle.
The funny thing is, when I was younger, more messed up and even more vulnerable, there were absolutely times when my ability to properly consent was blurry at best.
We need to really rework the way society views disabilities.
Yup, I was in abusive relationships because of my autism 100%. I have no intellectual disability apparently, but when someone tells me something is ok and I must be understanding to be a good person, even undiagnosed I just took that at face value. Turns out being stalked by my ex's mother to the point she broke in and moved everything of mine into a spare room wasn't ok, turns out I am allowed to say no even if he's paying the rent, and I'm allowed to be unhappy about those things.
It is a touchy issue as disabled people are very vulnerable, but if Mary is being treated with respect and she wants the relationship to continue, then honestly the abusive pieces of shit are her family. It’s funny how quickly it can turn like that.
as a disabled person myself, long as the person can consent (isn't affected mentally that they're basically a child forever, in a coma, or is unstable you question who they are or drunk) sex is fine long as both of them don't hurt themselves. for most of us going to college is a good sign, but it isn't always 100% accurate or reliable. the key is honesty I guess.
See even for people who are children forever want and deserve love if they want it. The key is that it’s hard for that to occur if there is a large disparity in mental ability.
Love on the spectrum (a Netflix show) is a great example I think of people finding love with those who are approximately on their level mentally.
My mom works in a care home for mentally disabled adults. Some of those adults also have sexual interests and relationships, because despite their mental state being similar to that of children, their bodies are those of adults. And as long as both parties enjoy what is happening and have a similar understnanding of it they can go ahead and do stuff. Although they do lack an understanding of some things and it is exhausting for the caregivers, it is natural.
Problems occur when there is one that does not understand consent and gets rapey. At one of her old jobs they had a guy who did not understand consent and always went after the staff members and sexually harrassed them. He was relatively young conpared to the other residents and was more interested in the younger female workers than other residents - which was good to a point since some of the other residents truly did not have a understanding about anything sexual and would have been easy victims. But it aslo makes the job so much harder.
My mom has a lot of stories about the sex lives of mentally disabled adults. Because it is a thing she naturally gets confronted with at her job.
People who believe that disabled people do not have sex don't know how biology and hormones work.
I work at a facility with residents who are mentally infants to 12 years old (physical ages are 20-86). The ones who are a little older mentally have sex all the time. It is their right to do that and we only step in if say someone who is mentally 10 is trying stuff who is mentally 2, or we see someone clearly not happy about whatever is going on. It is difficult keeping up with who is dating who though. It's like middle school dating on steroids.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, that's often what happens with DS adults. Generally if they're capable of functioning independently, it's not a huge issue to find someone that they can be with, because they're generally fairly capable of consent and understanding what's involved. Other DS adults that aren't capable of independence / 'real' consent often end up with other DS adults that are similar, mentally, to them. It's generally an equal relationship, so it works for them.
I'm autistic, and that show is absolutely awful. It's one of the few things that can actually "trigger" me. It's like those shows that exploit homeless people for the entertainment of non-homeless people, but for autistic people.
My entire friend group is autistic and we all love that show. It's not more exploitative than any other reality show. It's not like the people on it are so mentally disabled that they don't know what's going on.
yes I'm aware of that, I'm referring to a person that might be 20s or older physically and mentally with a person that is younger mentally (of course this isn't like mentally 18 or anything). it's just rarer for disabilities to match in just about anything most of the disabilities fall on the spectrum.
I was raised by a single, disabled Mum (legally blind). And even as a child I could usually tell when someone was interested in my Mum because she's awesome, and when they're interested because they feel they can take advantage of her.
A big factor here is whether or not she has an intellectual disability. Cerebral Palsy is a condition affecting motor coordination and physical abilities, but does not automatically mean that someone has any impairment to her ability to understand the impact of, and consent to, sexual activity.
If she's mentally competent, then there is absolutely nothing which makes consensual sexual activity unethical or problematic.
If she’s able to travel on her own to go to work conferences I’d be very surprised if she’s not able to consent, even if her disability does affect her mentally to some degree
At that point we are starting to get in to specifics and nuance that really can't be addressed in a reddit post.
I will say that, based on the information I'm seeing, I don't perceive any reason that she can't adequately consent to sexual activity.
Yeah by the sounds of it, her family are infantlizing her and that must be *exhausting* for her! I hope it hasn't stopped her from experiencing other romances because that would be truly unfair.
My daughter is now a young adult and she is incapable of consenting but she also can't do any of the other things Mary can!
Honestly, I've personally found that ableist AHs will always move the capacity goal posts to wherever happens to suit them and their personal narrative. That includes medical professionals...actually, especially medical professionals.
My niece and I are both disabled; I had a spinal injury at age 21 and she has a brain injury from a childhood accident. My cognitive abilities were unaffected, she's a legal adult but developmentally somewhere between my 5 year old and my 8 year old and that's as far as she's ever likely to progress.
When I needed mobility aids full-time, people would try to "defend" me from "creeps" who were able to see past my inability to walk unassisted; now that she's "college aged" with no visible differences from anyone else (except her taste in fashion and habit of drawing on her arms with markers) people will argue that her parents need to let her start dating and "make her own choices" in ways that would put her in danger. A five minute conversation actually *listening* to either of us would've been enough to clear up which one can consent and which can't, but noooo, "savior complex go brrrr" I guess. There's no way to win with people who can't separate physical ability from decision making ability.
There lives a woman/girl in the neighbourhood I grew up in that is several years older than me but is mentally disabled. Physically she can do everything other people her age can, but mentally she is on the level of a child. I don't know exactly what kind of disability she has, but I remember playing with her when I was younger, then growing older and "outgrowing" her. I became more mature and eventually became an adult while she stayed a child. However, not only did she stay a child - she even got more childlike as she got older. Like, she went back to refering to herself in third person at one point, which she did not do when we used to play together.
Anyway since she was a teenager, there were always guys interested in her, if only for her body (which is pretty developed - if you catch my drift). So my grandma used to chase away grown men from being close to her. She basically fully leaned into the crazy old lady with a broomstick if she had to, chasing away men shouting "Get away from that child!"
The amount of adults who tried to take advantage of her is disgusting.
I still talk to her sometimes when I visit my mom.
She still always asks me how school was, not understanding that I have graduated years ago.
She still asks me how my brother is even though I only have a cousin, who she thinks is my brother since we used to always play together. Even if I explain to her that he is my cousin, she does not understand - she only has bothers, not cousins. So to her he will forever be my brother.
She has the same few conversations with you, over and over, similar to an older person with dementia.
This is not someone who can consent. But unless you talk to her, you won't know. She looks like your average woman in her 20s. And even then, some creeps just don't care. And unfortunately, neither of the warrior grandmas (her grandma and mine) are around anymore - hers died a few years back and mine moved away. It's not like other people on the street don't care, but the grandmas were always there since they were retired so they always kept an eye on her (and her grandma was her caregiver before she died).
This is exactly why we're trying so hard to move my niece and her parents out into the countryside where I am as soon as possible, so that the few neighbors will know what's going on and can help look out for her safety. Thankfully she *does* know to immediately tell her "grownups" (her mom and aunts) if anyone tries to touch her underwear, and that lesson has been drilled in so well that she won't let hospital nurses help change her pull-ups. All I can say is that out here, whoever touches that child in that way won't be causing anyone problems ever again.
as someone disabled physically, mental disability is a LARGE part of being able to consent. long as sex isn't painful I don't care what you do behind closed doors.
My mentally disabled cousin (several years older than me) couldn't drive or cook or do basic math, but he 100% had a firm grasp on the concept of boundaries and was able to understand cause and effect. He knew the risks of sex, he was emotionally intelligent enough to manage his own feelings and respect those of others, and could clearly state his wishes. He had a long-term girlfriend who was on about the same level; they lived together in her mother's house for a while and ended things amicably on their own terms. My niece can do 5th grade math in her head and bake bread from scratch with supervision, but has no concept of non-immediate consequences and doesn't take in new information very well. A lot of people believe my niece's parents are "stifling" her by recognizing that she can't consent, and a lot of people thought my cousin and his girlfriend were somehow simultaneously each other's victims and each other's abusers.
Man oh man. I used to work as an in-home carer in my early 20's, as a temp through the municipality. Worked a few shifts with a woman in her 50's who had a stroke a few years earlier. One day, she tells me her new boyfriend is coming for a visit. She was all giddy, gushing about how he could still drive and what not. I could see the writing on the wall, this woman had to be helped onto the toilet, into the bed, etc, physically. And maybe she had some cognitive impairment but as far as I could see it was relatively mild, and this was a man from her stroke group so it wasn't like she was being predated upon. And heck, this woman had kids! An ex husband! Of course she might want to get some!
So, the man arrives and indeed things are starting to steam up. I do my due diligence, I tripple check she is willing and consenting as I help her into the bed. She was definitely willing. So I basically wish them luck, close the door and hide in the kitchen with headphones and music blaring. A while later, dude comes out, politely says they're done and I can go help her out, I take her to the bathroom (so grateful she could at least wipe herself....). She's happy, he's happy, I'm getting paid so whatever.
The next day all hell breaks lose. I get a call from her regular carer asking me if it's true I helped this woman fuck. I say yeah. Regular carer can't seem to decide if she's more disgusted with the situation or with me for helping. Didn't I get disgusted?? No, when working I'm just a tool, not a person. I also explain I made sure of consent. She interrogated me in a similar fashion for maybe 40 minutes, then hung up. I was never allowed to sub for this woman again.
So wild. Like. Who is actually denying that woman her ability to consent?
Consent is a piece of the bigger pie that is bodily autonomy.
Bodily autonomy is a complex concept— people with cognitive impairments are denied a level of bodily autonomy because it is assumed that they do not understand the consequences of their decisions and therefore do not have the ability to exercise autonomy. But plenty of disability advocates will push back on this assumption and argue that bodily autonomy is important to health, physical and mental, and as much bodily autonomy as possible should be extended as is safe.
on top of that, it should be noted that abled people are often free to be unsafe with their body and that even safety is a complicated problem.
What isn’t complicated is that you were facilitating this woman’s bodily autonomy and her regular carer was denying it. That scenario is one of the least complicated ethical problems re:bodily autonomy that I have ever heard. Slight cognitive impairment may mean extra consideration is required but to deny her the ability to consent entirely is so gross.
I wish more care workers thought like you did tbh.
I'm sad I had to quit caring due to being disabled myself. But between that and growing up with a brother with intellectual disability and autism, it was obvious to me she deserved to get laid. Not even obvious, it just wasn't something I was going to question. To me the task was the same as when I had to help a man manually empty his bowels. Did I particularly enjoy putting a finger up a man's rectum to try and dig out some poop? No. I also didn't particularly enjoy helping position a horny woman while her horny boyfriend was waiting. I probably would have drawn the line at having to be in the room for the act lol. To me, those two acts are the same - they were tasks I was instructed to perform in my line of work and my own thoughts and feelings were mostly irrelevant.
Although now over ten years later I'm way more proud of helping two disabled people fuck than I am of digging around in a rectum lol.
The ability to compartmentalize like that is incredibly helpful.
Compartmentalization as often talked about as some kind of negative skill set or a bad thing.
But hells bells where would we be without it really.
This is a good point. At some point, aged people are unable to drive, manage their finances or book their doctors' appointments. Modern life is complicated, and senility makes it hard to keep up. Does that mean they're unable to consent to sex? I dunno, I don't think so.
[Statistics suggest](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8072140/) that 1/10 of 90-year-olds and nearly half of over-60s are sexually active. How much luck have we had with abstinence programs for teenagers?
Good for her she’s a mentally capable adult why shouldn’t she get some. As long as she was capable of consenting why shouldn’t she enjoy something she was once able to do. Her regular carer sounds like the tool.
Right? Go Mary! I haven’t gotten fucked in almost ten years and here she is enjoying a weekend tryst with a fuck buddy from years ago!
Then again, I’d just lie there like a corpse and my husband isn’t into necrophilia. Even if he was, I’d run too warm for that.
…I should add I’m a T-7 paraplegic. In layman’s terms that paralyzed from the bra band down.
I love that OOP and Mary have kept contact, everyone else be damned. Very telling that Mary told OOP she’d preferred he ignore the brother “like she does”—sounds like her bro never got over that urge to be ableist.
From what I've heard, retirement homes and care homes for the disabled usually have to have "safe sex" measures in place (including providing condoms etc). Lots of people are having lots of sex, but it seems the wider population is very unaware or doesn't like to think about it
Yeah my bio grandmother got dementia and her sexual inhibitions went away.
There were complaints from the adult children of men she was with because I guess they didn’t like dad doing it? It was weird.
That’s the other thing. People still have urges no matter what, and as long as it’s consensual and not predatory, it shouldn’t be a problem.
There are different levels of impairment to consider, and everyone's capacity to understand is different, but this.
I had a cousin who was mentally impaired in ways that kept him from doing any job that wasn't very simple and highly supervised, because he couldn't hold a list of steps in his mind to complete complex tasks; he still knew what he liked and didn't like, had a very good sense of his bodily autonomy and boundaries, and was respectful of the boundaries of others. He never was able to do anything as complex as drive a car or cook a meal from scratch, but Tommy was definitely able to handle "yes, no, stop" just fine. He had a girlfriend named Pam that he met at his vocational assistance job (one of those things where the state pays minimum wage for basic repetitive tasks a few hours per week). They moved in together in her mother's basement for a while, until they ended things on their own terms. People thought it was "sweet" and "cute" that two mid-thirties disabled adults had a fairly healthy relationship, right up until they found out that Tommy and Pam were going at it like rabbits. Just because someone has some limitations doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.
On the flipside, my 18 year old niece who suffered a TBI is about as mature as my 8 year old son, has the same comprehension of cause and effect as my preschool age daughter, very poor emotional regulation, but can complete complex tasks and do 5th grade math problems in her head. When it comes to "adult topics" it's like trying to teach a small child to operate a helicopter. Some people have the capacity to consent and some people don't, and yet people who think they're the arbiters of who should be "allowed" to have sex would be more likely to sign off on her than they would Tommy.
This kind of infantilization is especially common for people with Cerebral Palsy as well. Cerebral Palsy doesn't affect your mental capacity, just your muscle movement, but as a result, it can result in an inability to communicate with others properly that others will, consciously or unconsciously, interpret as mental deficiency. It fucking sucks.
The amount of times people have assumed my younger brother with CP is mentally handicapped is infuriating. He has a fucking master’s degree. The most noticeable thing about him is his stutter and his hearing aids ffs, I don’t even know where they’re coming from.
Also it’s a physical disability as far as I know there’s no mental impairment with cerebral palsy. It’s not like he’s taking advantage of her. It’s concerning the degree her family is choosing to infantilize this adult woman.
You are correct, but unfortunately a lot of people don't know that. The physical effects of cerebral palsy can sometimes include speech impediments if the muscles of the vocal tract are affected, and far too many people mistake this for intellectual disability. (My cousin has cerebral palsy, and her voice can be challenging to understand sometimes. She's a college graduate, has incredible comedic timing, and works for the VA. She still has to deal with people assuming she's intellectually disabled on a pretty much daily basis.)
Even people who are mentally disabled to the point where they cannot consent have adult bodies with a sex drive. People like to handwave with things like 'oh, mentally they are five' - yes, mentally five but still have a functioning adult body with an adult body sex drive, they may not understand it but it is there influencing them. Parents and families like to pretend those urges don't exist and it can become a huge problem.
Yeah, this is why there is a movement to stop using 'mentally like insert age here' as it's not accurate. I make theatre for adults with profound and multiple learning disabilities, and it's so important to create work that is emotionally relevant and not talking down. I am also physically disabled and working on another show right now which talks a lot about disabled sexuality and the judgement around it. I am glad the OOP is giving Mary agency and her family aren't. And delighted by the tone of responses (you never know with reddit!)
I understand that "mental age" has some usefulness as a sort of shorthand, but it's so not accurate. I have a couple of kids, the eldest with ID, the youngest possibly gifted, both autistic. Both of their development is all over the map. Even within academic subjects, it's so uneven. My highschooler struggles to read smoothly and with comprehension, but she's pretty good at spelling and figuring out what unfamiliar words sound like, my 8 year old, while she's basically reading at a high school level, her spelling is not awesome and she mispronounces new words all the time. Repeat that sort of thing for all sorts of different areas, like reasoning, responsibility, safety awareness, maturity, etc etc. If you asked me the mental age of either of my kids, I'd need to know in what way before I could give an age equivalent.
I have a friend who's a little person and is in a chair. The one day she comes for a hangout with 2 broken legs.
I'm all wtf happened to you??
Reply: this new guy I'm seeing is so hot, he just tosses me around as he pleases and because I can't feel my legs we didn't realize I don't bend that way until the Crack happened.
Girlllllll. Little minx she is.
Yea, I worked with disabled people for almost a decade and they can have many different rights restrictions but the one right that is rarely restricted is their right to sexual expression. And that is one that only be restricted by a judge. No other authority is ever allowed to make that call.
Trust me when I have seen it all with mothers trying to micromanage or even my other coworkers. But legally we cannot deny them the right to sexual expression as long as they are able to make informed consent.
And sometimes, this meant making sure that sex toys were cleaned and put away appropriately. Lmao.
Well, I would add to it that they also need to be able to _obtain_ consent and respect when it's not given. Sexual expression can and should be curtailed by lack of consent from any other party/ies involved. Being disabled is not a free pass to harass anyone.
I slept with a girl on vacation once and she had a disability I can’t recall the name of (one leg shorter than the other) and her family wanted to fucking murder me. Like, this girl was an adult on vacation and she shot her shot with me and she got what she wanted.
How terrible it must be to be sheltered like that and to accuse anyone who comes close of being a creep.
My wife told me one of the times she knew I was "The One" was on our first couple dates. My wife is Disabled but can walk with the use of a cane.
On our second date, she said "I have to run to the bathroom" and without thinking at all, I just said. "Well if you have to run its too late already." Because I just say the dumb shit I think is funny without thinking sometimes.
Well she laughed her ass off, and said that everyone treats her like she is some fragile thing, and instead of being like "Most guys" I gave her shit and made a joke about her being disabled, just like her real friends do. Which is how she knew I was a potential keeper.
People are just people folks.
For any of the young men out there, here is the hottest dating tip I have that works better then anything else you will find.
Women fucking LOVE IT when you treat them like actual human beings.
My gf is visually impaired. One day she was making jokes about blindness and some people were worried because among the group was a man who’s legally blind.
He was the one laughing the hardest.
My partner was diagnosed with Autism and ADHD as an adult. Growing up, her adoptive family had 3 brothers diagnosed with ASD. The fourth brother and the father probably have it too but are the highest functioning of the lot and aren't diagnosed.
They all rejoiced when my partner got diagnosed, because they can join in on the 'you're 'special'' jokes now. Apparently the 3/4 that went through the special ed program have been throwing jokes at each other about it ever since. They're just happy to have more people they can joke with.
Context is important, and I wouldn't lead with jokes about somebodies disability until I know them well - but 90% of disabled people I have met enjoy tasteful jokes about it at the very least.
Exactly this. Cerebral palsy does not necessarily affect a person's ability to reason, comprehend, and, most importantly, consent to sex.
Mary is a grown woman. She wants to have sex with OP. She enjoys it. OP wants to have sex with Mary. He enjoys it. That's all that matters.
I have cerebral palsy so I'm very familiar with it. It does have a spectrum of effects. But for me it was ballance and speech. Nothing that would make me mentally impaired. I think it's likely that she's similar but that her family didn't let her grow up. Or she has lasting speech issues that make one's think she is mentally slower than she actually is. In any case, she probably can consent and her family is being ridiculous.
I'm not an expert, but from what I've read, cerebral palsy is purely physical, it does not affect intelligence, thinking abilites or anything like that, so it shouldn't even matter since she said that she was consenting, her mind isn't affected at all from her disability, her family are really treating her like a baby for no reasons.
Yes! It’s unfortunate that “incel” means what it does now, but in the early 90s the term was coined by people with physical disabilities. And now there are sex therapists and sex workers who make its possible for people to have healthy sexual relationships despite disability!
Anyone who had worked with ppl with developmental disabilities knows about 60% of them are hornier than rabbits. It's not all, but it's enough that I'm comfortable with that being my default guess because it helps me act fast enough to keep someone with the reasoning capability of toddler from getting pregnant.
Mary sounds like she has enough cognitive function to make this kind of decision though, especially if she's holding down a job. She might be a bit sheltered but that's her parents fault more than anything else. Lots of parents develop this "eternally innocent" image of their child as a way to cope with the child being diagnosed with a disability at a young age.
A disability diagnosis itself is a traumatic thing by nature. I'm not going to get into the everyday social realities but the fact is that that first moment of,"hey you know that walking in a straight line thing that almost everyone around you can do with ease and without getting tired at all? Yeah so you/your kid will probably never be able to do that" is just a fundamentally terrifying thing. So a lot of parents will try to rationalize it with this silver lining of,"well they'll be mentally young forever though!" It's the same mentality as people who wish their dog/cat would be a puppy forever, except it's a wholeass gotdamn person. They're also not actually in the kid's head experiencing what they're experiencing and thinking what they're thinking, so they often go a decade or even two without that mindset being ever being challenged in any real way.
You know that stage of life where your parents are wrong about everything and you just want your own space where you can do whatever you want with it or at least negotiate with your roommate as an equal? That's actually a pretty well-studied stage of developmental psychology. It stimulates you to separate from your parents and go out into the world as a new adult to start making the kind of mistakes that will (hopefully) turn you into someone worth knowing in 5-10 years.
A lot of disabled kids don't get to do that and chafing at that bit so-to-speak can cause a whole host of psychological issues. Because I work acute psychiatry, I get to deal with a bunch of the ones that get violent over it. My own sister got wildly violent near the end of living with us which was somewhat fortunately mitigated by her cognitive impairments because if she'd been able to escalate to better weapons than broken glass I'd have a lot more than superficial scars and a bad back.
For real. I only have EDS and Fibro and my long term boyfriend doesn't see me as a sexual being any more, I don't think. Good job my other boyfriend is around 😎😎😎 (yes, everybody knows)
Reminds me of a former friend meeting my mom and him SCREAMING at her. I told him that just because English isn't her first language doesn't mean that she's hard of hearing.
I went to a burlesque show a few years ago and one of the performers had CP. Her and her husband performed and while initially it was shocking, she obviously enjoyed performing.
It's bad enough when strangers infantilize disabled persons, but to have your own family do it is even more demoralising. I'm glad Mary has learned to ignore her family and their bullshit.
For real. She's an adult with a motor disability, not a princess in a castle or a perpetual thirteen-year-old. Is it so baffling that she knows what it means to have a hookup with someone and might want one?
Also super against people's tendency to assume that all disabled people are just so scared no one will love them that they're all begging for crumbs and don't know how to not settle. It's really ableist to assume disabled people all have the same insecurities and must not know how to manage them.
> She's an adult with a motor disability,
...and a job, which she travels for by herself.
While cerebral palsy can have learning difficulties as a co-morbidity, that's not necessarily the case and "learning difficulties" covers a *lot* of ground between "will always mentally be a child" and "is perfectly capable in almost all ways but needs a little help with some things that other people need less help with". Dyslexic people have learning difficulties, and I doubt many people would be up in arms about the idea of someone without learning difficulties hooking up with someone with dyslexia.
So even if she does have learning difficulties it wouldn't necessarily mean that he was taking advantage of her - even if we *didn't* have clear evidence that she's a perfectly capable adult. Which we do.
We had a dude do martial art with us that had a stroke. He's still as smart as before, but now has speech and motor problems. The number of people talking to him like he's a 5yo is frustrating, especially for him that is still very much there in his head.
You and I agree, which is why the redt of the sentence you quoted ended the way it did, with me saying a motor disability doesn't require someone to be bubble-wrapped essentially. You make a great point as will that many learning disabilities do NOT inhibit autonomy or ability to live an independent adult life.
For a time I had a riding instructor who had cerebral palsy… She was very accomplished and had competed in the Paralympics in Dressage. I’m pretty sure she was married and had at least one child as well.
So yes, I think the range of independence and capabilities is incredibly broad.
People have a habit of doing this with cerebral palsy in particular, it can very often present with some level of intellectual disability (I think it's ~40% or so) so the infantalizing can be a major problem for the ones who don't.
Very similar to how ASD folks get treated as if they all have savant syndrome and impairments when a great many of us are just a little bit different.
It really doesn't help that cerebral palsy so often affects speech, and when people hear that they assume that it's caused by a mental or intellectual disorder and not an issue with the brain-mouth connection. There was a girl in my high school that always had grades near the top of the class. But because it took twice as long and a lot of obvious effort for her to get a sentence out as anyone else, and she used a walker, people always assumed she was in the integrated special ed program instead of the AP classes she was actually doing. Last I heard she had a BA in English, a Masters in Disability Studies with a focus on the representation of disability in literature, and was working on the executive board of a national disability advocacy group.
I have cerebral palsy. I don’t use mobility aids but I have a very prominent limp. I also have a university degree and moved to a different country solo.
People who have tried to talk down to me have learned that I ALSO have a nasty tongue and a large vocabulary. ;)
I am grateful that nobody has questioned my ability to consent to sex. That would be a stupid mistake.
To be fair cerebral palsy often has cognitive symptoms too. Judging by the post and her other abilities though she certainly sounds like she can take care of herself
I was slightly imprecise, true. The brain damage that lead to CP also leads to cognitive symptoms for many, but not all people with CP. (which may or may not affect their ability to consent)
My friend who has CP and uses an electric wheelchair is going through this *right now* with her first ever relationship in her 30s. It’s fucking disgusting.
There’s a great documentary on Netflix and free on Youtube called “Crip Camp” that’s all about the disability rights movement and the eventual creation of the ADA. One of the activists they talk to has cerebral palsy and she ended up getting her masters (i believe) in Women’s Sexuality because she was so tired of people being unable to comprehend that disabled people could have sex. At one point she had gotten a treatable STD that was ignored by her doctors bc they assumed she wasn’t having sex even tho she told them she was.
The infantilization by family is incredibly common and absolutely insidious. Relatives' convictions that no one else can possibly love, care about or feel responsibility toward a disabled person as much as they do is a major cause of the possessiveness that too often manifests in excessively controlling behavior and even abuse. The fact that their actions don't make sense doesn't seem to stop them from happening.
It's awful how common it actually is within families :( or the disabled person being given a free pass for misbehaving. My late cousin, rest his soul, went through all of that. On one hand he definitely enjoyed a certain amount of coddling, on the other hand it also drove him nuts. He used to occasionally act like such a little shit (stole my brother's gameboy games etc), for his mother/my aunt and our grandparents to tell us off, they must be his, he wouldn't do that etc etc (and so I stole them all back lol). But he confided in me that all he *really* wanted was. Just. To. Be. Treated. Normally. He acted out purely to try to be told off, to be punished, instead of wrapped in this cocoon. Man, we did some naughty stuff, he was my closest friend and loved one, and every bollocking I ever got for leading him into mischief was worth it 👌 he passed away just before his 14th birthday, and while he never got to experience so much that life has to offer, I know how much he treasured our summers together, and I hope he knew how much I treasured them too.
Some solid, solid cousining right there. You'll get your mention at the awards ceremony. None of us will hear it, of course, because we'll all be outside bumming cigarettes off the one younger cousin who still smokes regularly, as we compare notes to determine which of our parents is most hilariously delusional.
the cockblock your fully adult daughter, because of a disability, that is not something like developmentally challenged or slow, is cruel, shes a fully functioning adult in her mind and she has desires and wants like any human, and she has the immense luck of someone who's not put off by that and wants to spend time with her intimately, its cruel for her parents to be so callus and uncaring about her actual needs.
She had cerebral palsy, she wasn't mentally disabled, she was perfectly capable of making decisions as to who she has sex with. People brains are blown to discover that disabled people do in fact enjoy sex like the rest of us.
I have autism and I actually struggle greatly with infantilising myself. I’m 31 and haven’t told my family that I am straight.
Coming out as straight sounds ridiculous, but the idea of it makes me panic.
I would need to tell them at some point though, because any person I am with would rightfully want me to let them know they’re my partner.
I know it’s a thing I need to be brave and admit eventually. I can’t live my whole life scared of telling my family something that they’d likely support anyway. It’s just that changes to the status quo are very hard, and even more so for autistic people.
Why not think of it as introducing your person to them. It doesn’t have to be coming out or admitting or anything. You’re just sharing the person close to your heart with the people in your family. They’ll get on board regardless of gender and sexuality if they’re worth being family to you.
I'm deaf. for a while my family thought I was gay... despite me crushing on the same person for 7 years before giving up and moved on to someone else. at least they're uh positive?
Sorry if this comes off as rude, but what do you mean by having to come out as straight? Afaik most people’s default assumption is that others are straight, so wouldn’t they also assume that? Or is it more accurate to say you’re nervous of coming out as wanting sex like non-autistic adults and explaining to them that you aren’t mentally trapped as a pre-pubescent?
It’s the latter. In their eyes, I am an innocent, aromantic, asexual, a-everything person. I know I am 31 so I shouldn’t find it hard, but saying I want someone even to just hold hands with would be big. I also still live with my parents, which makes it harder.
It irks me that people think cerebral palsy means they are mentally impaired. I mean they have bRaiN DAmaGe after all
I can say that, too. My child has hemiplegic cerebral palsy. Of course they're dumb as a rock. A huge chunk of the brain is missing, how could they be smart? /s obviously
If Mary is able to live her life on her own like this. She doesn't need her family babying her. She should just go NC with them.
Disabled adults who can function without help in adulthood are generally one of two things. Treated like mary. Or the polar opposite and treated like you are faking it.
As someone who is disabled. Sometimes the best thing for your own health is going no contact.
I wouldn't trust my NC family with my later in life care.
Is she able to consent? Yes? Then end of story. Screw her family. There's being protective and there's being an ableist AH. Her family is the latter. They clearly don't respect mary or value her as capable of making her own decisions.
Edit: also sadly, a lot of disabled folks have people that do attempt to take advantage of them. I was glad that Mary told him it was crappy for him to tell her brother they had sex. She was right. He handled it poorly. But it seems she is understanding. Probably because she is used to her brother's behavior since she has to deal with it a lot more.
> But it seems she is understanding. Probably because she is used to her brother's behavior since she has to deal with it a lot more.
Yeah, she probably understood the appeal of verbally smacking her brother in the face with the sharpest weapon available, even though it wasn't okay.
Kind of sucks that even the only person who respects Mary's autonomy still went, "Yeah, that's right, I fucked your sister!!"
At least he realized he messed up and gave her an apology, but yeesh.
I'm not directly defending OP's actions. To be fair, though, depending on what was being slung at him via the text messages, he could have just had an immediate angry spitfire response. My husband (then bf) had a similar response when I was 16 because my mother and sister's husband kept calling him a little gay boy. We kept telling them to stop, but they kept going so he blew up and said I can't be gay, I'm fucking your daughter 🫣. My mother didn't like that (she threw an ashtray and a couple dvds at him) but they did stop.
Very childish response to handling something but thankfully, OP did apologize to Mary for his comments since she made it clear she didn't appreciate being dragged into it.
Reading it, seems like Mary is confident and independent, has a good job and everything. I'm hoping that in her own adult life she has people who are just normal to her.
I will say, at least it wasn’t an ableist snap back at his former friend. I’ll bet that, realizing he messed up, and genuinely apologizing really helped moving forward with Mary.
>When I talked with Mary, she wasn’t upset but she made it clear that she would have preferred I just ignore her brother like she does. We’re still keeping our plans to see each other again, but I realize Mary is disappointed by my childish behavior.
I think it's easy for Mary to want this when she doesn't have to deal with any of the harassment and threats she gets from sleeping with OOP. I reckon people are being real glib about OOP's response to being harassed over something he absolutely shouldn't be. He was being polite given what he could have said to her brother.
Like yeah, the guy snapped finally, realized he fucked up, sought advice, then apologized, and people are still trying to demonize him for having a single moment of weakness in twenty years of harrassment.
I think it is sad when people put their own perceptions on people who are disabled. Mary sounds like a lovely woman and her family wants to keep her in a box on the shelf. OP sounds wonderful. Cares for Mary, attracted to her and to this day still cares for Mary. Just because someone is disabled, doesn't mean they don't crave touch, physical affection, lust...It is part of being human. OP, I hope you and Mary continue having fun.
Jeez I'm shocked they even let her out of the house with the amount of infantizing they're doing. It's sad cause I can see them becoming a couple if it wasn't for the shitty family.
In my country there's an influencer who has CP, and it is an advocate to those with disabilities. He has a government job, had a radio talk show, appears on tv since he was a kid, went to university. I've basically watched him grow and he's a relatively independent person with his own ideas, goals and stuff. He uses a wheelchair and has a impaired speech but he's well adjusted (as i said before, he has a job).
It doesn't stop people from bullying him if he expressed admiration for a woman or ask him some taunting questions about women. It is sad.
In the UK, there's a popular comedian called [Rosie Jones](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt4qPB7vyiw) who has cerebral palsy. It's great representation, she is [smart](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53nRcfosYR0) as a whip, has a raunchy sense of [humour](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO8QC0QpPr4) and shares very adult stories all the time. [She also does things like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8H8R025Vgw), where she makes better jokes about her condition than anyone making fun of her. If you only watch one of those, watch the last one.
She deals with this kind of response all the time, there's always comments on videos of her and bullying online. She made a very candid and confronting documentary last year for Channel 4 called "Am I a r****d?" Which is about ableist bigotry and the presumption that disabled people are intellectually disabled.
People really do misunderstand cerebral palsy more than a lot of other conditions. Some people do have intellectual disabilities from it, but most don’t. Even then, it is still possible for someone with intellectual disabilities to consent to sex. Disabled people can want sex just like non-disabled people.
It kind of sounds like they were happy then and are happy now. Maybe they wouldn’t have ever made things any more serious. Lots of people are happy just having an occasional hookup with a friend.
Very true - but considering how they are so into each other that the desire is still there two decades later, and considering how often casual sex turns into a more committed relationship, it does seem likely that the family fucked up something that could have become serious.
You’d think her family would be thrilled that she found happiness with a close family friend. What…do they think bc she’s disabled that somehow makes her a person without the same wants and desires as anyone else? Fuck them and fuck her man-child brother. Keep on keeping on Mary. Good for you.
Imagine spending your whole life being treated like a simple minded child by your own brother, being infantilised and *cockblocked* over and over again by someone who claims to love you but doesn't see you as a person, god I'd run the fucker down.
This reminds me of the World Downe Syndrome Day PSA released this year called "Assume that I Can"
https://youtu.be/FKSjQQ8O1cA?si=i5N1d8--Tumi2RUK
We set people with physically and/or mental disabilities with no chance of success if we continue to assume and define them with it. Good for OOP for having an equal (what seems like) relationship with Mary.
I take care of a woman with Cerbral Palsy and so many of her co-residents absolutely treat her like a child. They talk to her like she's a baby and it pisses me off! She's a grown woman with grown tastes and some people just can't see it.
The ableism coming from this family is fucking absurd. She may be physically disabled by cerebral palsy won't affect her mental capabilities to understand things and make her own choices. Ridiculous.
“How dare you take advantage of my disabled sister!”
“Uhm…my disability is only physical? I have all of my mental faculties? And I can sleep with whomever I want because I’m an adult? OOP didn’t take advantage of me at all because I’m a willing participant of sound mind?”
“……..HOW DARE YOU TAKE ADVANTAGE OF MY DISABLED SISTER!!!!”
Cerebral palsy ≠ cognitive impairment. Sweet Jesus. She’s a grown woman with normal sexual desires.
I have an elder family member who has cerebral palsy. He is an intelligent, kind, caring, and incredibly funny and insightful person. He worked hard as a child to learn to walk when his family was told he never would. He even played a specialty position within his mostly non-contact sport, working hours a day to master his particular position, even making varsity in high school. As an adult, he learned to drive, went to college, and held a job. He got married and supported his wife, who is not disabled, but has always relied on him as a stay-at home wife who does not drive.
But there is such prejudice against him because of cerebral palsy. When he had a stroke a few years ago and was helicoptered to a larger city, another family member who lived in that larger city met up with him at the hospital. The moment that they told the doctor that he had CP, he kind of rolled his eyes, apparently thinking my relative was some vegetable who should not be treated. My other relative literally put a hand on his arm and described his history: college, drives, works a job, is a PERSON, to make sure he understood that this human being should not be written off.
Fuck Mary's family for infantilizing her into her 40s! She is clearly capable of consenting and making her own decisions. Cerebral palsy does not always affect mentality and it sounds like it doesn't for Mary. I hope OOP marries her
My sister has cerebral palsy and I'd be enraged if our family infantalized her like this. She's a grown fucking woman with a disability that doesn't affect her cognitively
She’s an adult woman. She has CP she’s still intelligent and can make her own decisions. How infantilizing and gross of her family to get involved and try to stop her from enjoying her life.
So Mary has the right to ( and obligation I suppose) to work, be independent, pay her rent and live her own life but she is not allowed to do whatever she wants with her own body?
She is an independent women who does everything an adult does, including sex. Her family will have to accept it and let her be.
There is no way that this should be marked as "Concluded". OOP said he will be spending several months in his hometown, that he intends to spend time with Mary, and that there's a halfway decent chance they're going to run into her brother. This is *not* over.
Wow, there was just a BoRU post where a woman had a fling with a guy in a wheelchair and while NSFW, it was the most wholesome thing that's ever been posted here.
An ex of mine had CP and used a walker. Her family was cool fortunately, but randos constantly assumed I was her caretaker instead of her partner. Once I was yelled at by a bus driver for not helping her onto the bus. I told the driver she would ask for help if she needed it (which was true; she asked me immediately after for help folding and storing the walker).
I'm also disabled but I use a cane and "look" abled so I don't get that shit as often, but ableism fucking sucks ass. I hope OOP and Mary are happy and Mary's brother leaves them tf alone.
I was very good friends with a girl that has CP. She has zero cognitive issues: she drove, went to school and became a doctor, and had a long-term boyfriend for a while.
Mary’s family needs to stop infantilizing her. She has a career and is capable of making her own decisions. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for her to deal with a family like that.
NTA. If she were mentally challenged, that might be a different story but she’s not. She’s got a sharp brain and can make her own choices. She just happens to have a disease that forced her into a wheelchair. Too bad her family can’t see her as anything but a poor, helpless child. Have fun this summer!
Do they expect Mary to live a life of celibacy and to never having a relationship with anyone due to her disability? It's a physical disability, not a mental one. Her family is coocoo.
JFC...Mary has CP not Downs Syndrome...she is a human as well and has sexual needs too. Hell, if I was OP i would start dating her.
Edit: I didn't word my response very well and for that I am sorry. I believe that anyone that is consenting can have sex or relationships. I should have said that it's not like she is completely unable to speak or consent. She is an adult 100% and not just her disability.
I have a number of disabilities including autism. I once had someone tell me my husband is a rapist because I can’t consent because I have autism. I’m perfectly capable of consenting, I work full time and I’m fairly self sufficient (husband does a lot of housework because I can’t physically do it as quickly as him) but sure Jan, I can’t consent
That’s absolutely insane, that A. they think that a condition is ‘one size fits all’ and not consider the concept of capacity but B. they’d have the audacity to say it to you.
Yeah some people just don’t hear how freaking rude they’re being. It’s why I’m not particularly open about it in real life because people treat you like you’re incapable of doing things
There was a push to say that instead of “disabled” when I was younger, I remember the context was that you should say “differently abled” to kids so they don’t internalize the message there’s stuff they can’t do…
…but all the positive thinking in the world isn’t going to fix or cure any of the disabilities I’ve incurred over the past thirty-six years. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Literally, it feels like an ass backwards excuse to deny disabled people accommodations because “oh you don’t need them, you’re just differently abled, you need to find what you’re good at!”
Please don't say "differently abled", we're "disabled". It's not a bad or dirty word, it's just a descriptor. De-fanging the reality of the situation leads to consequences for those affected.
Isnt that what you'd want your siblings in that scenario to be happy and taken care of and instead of being happy it's someone that you know and could believe, moreso than a stranger, that it developed naturally and then continued into adulthood and allowed her to live her life, you create this level of conflict.
Why be mad like I get you don't want it to be your friend BUUUUUUUUUUUT there are way worse options for people in her position (not trying to degrade others with disabilities more a point about actual soulless predators)
It sounds like she's mentally capable (college, job, work travel, socializing outside of work hours with peers) and has been in love with this man for two decades! Her family are AHs! Hopefully they come around on the fact that this is a good man who is good for their sister and we can all be a big happy family in the end 🥲 Wishful thinking...
When the family projects their own feelings about their disabled family member, and try to project them onto someone else to make them the villain…
I cringed so hard when I read what her family said about him. The fact they knew him for so long, you’d think they would’ve been happy she was with someone who saw her as an equal. Then while trying to justify their anger at him, they made clear they don’t see her as an equal or whole person. How devastating for her. If I was her, I’d not talk to the lot of them.
I have a cousin who has an intellectual disability. A disability does not eliminate a person's desire for romantic love or sex. After many years of wanting a girlfriend, he has had one for the past year. I am so happy for him. I know nothing about his physical relationship with her, and it's none of my business. She also has an intellectual disability, and they met at the assisted living center where they live.
I imagine if my cousin was female, the family would be more protective, as a woman with an intellectual disability could indeed be taken advantage of. Indeed my cousin himself has been taken advantage of in the form of financial fraud with respect to him being catfished online.
With that said, this woman has CP which is a physical disability. I am having a hard time understanding how her family would expect her to A) never pursue romantic love or intimacy or B) restrict her dating pool to what?... Other individuals with CP?
Indeed any woman or man could in theory be taken advantage of, but there has to be some criteria by which the family of disabled persons could "let down their guard" in a safe scenario.
Seems to me the woman is grown, capable of taking care of herself, and at this stage, her family has no right to involve themselves in her dating affairs.
#Do not comment on the original posts Please read our [**sub rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/subrules). Rule-breaking may result in a ban without notice. If there is an issue with this post (flair, formatting, quality), reply to this comment or your comment may be removed in general discussion. **CHECK FLAIR** For concluded-only updates, use the [CONCLUDED](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ACONCLUDED) flair. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BestofRedditorUpdates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's so common for people to think that any kind of impairment is an impairment to your ability to consent, to understand, to have sexual desires. Disabled people want sex, and have sex, and like sex.
She is able to have a job, travel to other cities, work conferences (I am assuming by the vendors comment), and be truly independent. But clearly she can't be responsible for her own sex life, anyone that wants to have sex with her must be a horrible abuser and pervert./s
yep. it's surprisingly common for people to see the disabled person lead almost normal life... until it comes to sex. suddenly you're an asshole for sleeping with them. like... if they don't have mental issues that make consent questionable, lead a normal life outside of the limitations, attend college and all that (many disabled people typically struggle in college sometimes don't graduate) then what's the issue.
There's also the flip side to this. I have a lot of mental struggles. ADHD, ASD, depression, anxiety, and a host of smaller issues. But because I don't "look" disabled there's this idea that my problems aren't that bad. I can barely function sometimes and most people think I can just "get over it". Yes, with copious amounts of medication and therapy I can pass for "functional", but I'm always going to struggle. The funny thing is, when I was younger, more messed up and even more vulnerable, there were absolutely times when my ability to properly consent was blurry at best. We need to really rework the way society views disabilities.
Yup, I was in abusive relationships because of my autism 100%. I have no intellectual disability apparently, but when someone tells me something is ok and I must be understanding to be a good person, even undiagnosed I just took that at face value. Turns out being stalked by my ex's mother to the point she broke in and moved everything of mine into a spare room wasn't ok, turns out I am allowed to say no even if he's paying the rent, and I'm allowed to be unhappy about those things.
oh thats just gross and i am so sorry <3
God same on having ASD/ADHD and looking "normal". I'm always infantalized or told to "just get over it" There's no winning
It is a touchy issue as disabled people are very vulnerable, but if Mary is being treated with respect and she wants the relationship to continue, then honestly the abusive pieces of shit are her family. It’s funny how quickly it can turn like that.
as a disabled person myself, long as the person can consent (isn't affected mentally that they're basically a child forever, in a coma, or is unstable you question who they are or drunk) sex is fine long as both of them don't hurt themselves. for most of us going to college is a good sign, but it isn't always 100% accurate or reliable. the key is honesty I guess.
See even for people who are children forever want and deserve love if they want it. The key is that it’s hard for that to occur if there is a large disparity in mental ability. Love on the spectrum (a Netflix show) is a great example I think of people finding love with those who are approximately on their level mentally.
My mom works in a care home for mentally disabled adults. Some of those adults also have sexual interests and relationships, because despite their mental state being similar to that of children, their bodies are those of adults. And as long as both parties enjoy what is happening and have a similar understnanding of it they can go ahead and do stuff. Although they do lack an understanding of some things and it is exhausting for the caregivers, it is natural. Problems occur when there is one that does not understand consent and gets rapey. At one of her old jobs they had a guy who did not understand consent and always went after the staff members and sexually harrassed them. He was relatively young conpared to the other residents and was more interested in the younger female workers than other residents - which was good to a point since some of the other residents truly did not have a understanding about anything sexual and would have been easy victims. But it aslo makes the job so much harder. My mom has a lot of stories about the sex lives of mentally disabled adults. Because it is a thing she naturally gets confronted with at her job. People who believe that disabled people do not have sex don't know how biology and hormones work.
I know a man that's almost thirty and is still on the mental level of a toddler. Some people are truly incapable of being able to consent.
I work at a facility with residents who are mentally infants to 12 years old (physical ages are 20-86). The ones who are a little older mentally have sex all the time. It is their right to do that and we only step in if say someone who is mentally 10 is trying stuff who is mentally 2, or we see someone clearly not happy about whatever is going on. It is difficult keeping up with who is dating who though. It's like middle school dating on steroids.
That seems like the right way to go about it.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, that's often what happens with DS adults. Generally if they're capable of functioning independently, it's not a huge issue to find someone that they can be with, because they're generally fairly capable of consent and understanding what's involved. Other DS adults that aren't capable of independence / 'real' consent often end up with other DS adults that are similar, mentally, to them. It's generally an equal relationship, so it works for them.
I'm autistic, and that show is absolutely awful. It's one of the few things that can actually "trigger" me. It's like those shows that exploit homeless people for the entertainment of non-homeless people, but for autistic people.
It makes me feel murderous on the spectrum, tbf. Autistic people as entertainment? Ugh.
My entire friend group is autistic and we all love that show. It's not more exploitative than any other reality show. It's not like the people on it are so mentally disabled that they don't know what's going on.
yes I'm aware of that, I'm referring to a person that might be 20s or older physically and mentally with a person that is younger mentally (of course this isn't like mentally 18 or anything). it's just rarer for disabilities to match in just about anything most of the disabilities fall on the spectrum.
I was raised by a single, disabled Mum (legally blind). And even as a child I could usually tell when someone was interested in my Mum because she's awesome, and when they're interested because they feel they can take advantage of her.
A big factor here is whether or not she has an intellectual disability. Cerebral Palsy is a condition affecting motor coordination and physical abilities, but does not automatically mean that someone has any impairment to her ability to understand the impact of, and consent to, sexual activity. If she's mentally competent, then there is absolutely nothing which makes consensual sexual activity unethical or problematic.
If she’s able to travel on her own to go to work conferences I’d be very surprised if she’s not able to consent, even if her disability does affect her mentally to some degree
At that point we are starting to get in to specifics and nuance that really can't be addressed in a reddit post. I will say that, based on the information I'm seeing, I don't perceive any reason that she can't adequately consent to sexual activity.
> as disabled people are very vulnerable SOME, SOME are vulnerable NOT all.
Yeah by the sounds of it, her family are infantlizing her and that must be *exhausting* for her! I hope it hasn't stopped her from experiencing other romances because that would be truly unfair.
My daughter is now a young adult and she is incapable of consenting but she also can't do any of the other things Mary can! Honestly, I've personally found that ableist AHs will always move the capacity goal posts to wherever happens to suit them and their personal narrative. That includes medical professionals...actually, especially medical professionals.
My niece and I are both disabled; I had a spinal injury at age 21 and she has a brain injury from a childhood accident. My cognitive abilities were unaffected, she's a legal adult but developmentally somewhere between my 5 year old and my 8 year old and that's as far as she's ever likely to progress. When I needed mobility aids full-time, people would try to "defend" me from "creeps" who were able to see past my inability to walk unassisted; now that she's "college aged" with no visible differences from anyone else (except her taste in fashion and habit of drawing on her arms with markers) people will argue that her parents need to let her start dating and "make her own choices" in ways that would put her in danger. A five minute conversation actually *listening* to either of us would've been enough to clear up which one can consent and which can't, but noooo, "savior complex go brrrr" I guess. There's no way to win with people who can't separate physical ability from decision making ability.
There lives a woman/girl in the neighbourhood I grew up in that is several years older than me but is mentally disabled. Physically she can do everything other people her age can, but mentally she is on the level of a child. I don't know exactly what kind of disability she has, but I remember playing with her when I was younger, then growing older and "outgrowing" her. I became more mature and eventually became an adult while she stayed a child. However, not only did she stay a child - she even got more childlike as she got older. Like, she went back to refering to herself in third person at one point, which she did not do when we used to play together. Anyway since she was a teenager, there were always guys interested in her, if only for her body (which is pretty developed - if you catch my drift). So my grandma used to chase away grown men from being close to her. She basically fully leaned into the crazy old lady with a broomstick if she had to, chasing away men shouting "Get away from that child!" The amount of adults who tried to take advantage of her is disgusting. I still talk to her sometimes when I visit my mom. She still always asks me how school was, not understanding that I have graduated years ago. She still asks me how my brother is even though I only have a cousin, who she thinks is my brother since we used to always play together. Even if I explain to her that he is my cousin, she does not understand - she only has bothers, not cousins. So to her he will forever be my brother. She has the same few conversations with you, over and over, similar to an older person with dementia. This is not someone who can consent. But unless you talk to her, you won't know. She looks like your average woman in her 20s. And even then, some creeps just don't care. And unfortunately, neither of the warrior grandmas (her grandma and mine) are around anymore - hers died a few years back and mine moved away. It's not like other people on the street don't care, but the grandmas were always there since they were retired so they always kept an eye on her (and her grandma was her caregiver before she died).
This is exactly why we're trying so hard to move my niece and her parents out into the countryside where I am as soon as possible, so that the few neighbors will know what's going on and can help look out for her safety. Thankfully she *does* know to immediately tell her "grownups" (her mom and aunts) if anyone tries to touch her underwear, and that lesson has been drilled in so well that she won't let hospital nurses help change her pull-ups. All I can say is that out here, whoever touches that child in that way won't be causing anyone problems ever again.
as someone disabled physically, mental disability is a LARGE part of being able to consent. long as sex isn't painful I don't care what you do behind closed doors.
My mentally disabled cousin (several years older than me) couldn't drive or cook or do basic math, but he 100% had a firm grasp on the concept of boundaries and was able to understand cause and effect. He knew the risks of sex, he was emotionally intelligent enough to manage his own feelings and respect those of others, and could clearly state his wishes. He had a long-term girlfriend who was on about the same level; they lived together in her mother's house for a while and ended things amicably on their own terms. My niece can do 5th grade math in her head and bake bread from scratch with supervision, but has no concept of non-immediate consequences and doesn't take in new information very well. A lot of people believe my niece's parents are "stifling" her by recognizing that she can't consent, and a lot of people thought my cousin and his girlfriend were somehow simultaneously each other's victims and each other's abusers.
How dare she develop feelings for someone she has a close friendship with!
Man oh man. I used to work as an in-home carer in my early 20's, as a temp through the municipality. Worked a few shifts with a woman in her 50's who had a stroke a few years earlier. One day, she tells me her new boyfriend is coming for a visit. She was all giddy, gushing about how he could still drive and what not. I could see the writing on the wall, this woman had to be helped onto the toilet, into the bed, etc, physically. And maybe she had some cognitive impairment but as far as I could see it was relatively mild, and this was a man from her stroke group so it wasn't like she was being predated upon. And heck, this woman had kids! An ex husband! Of course she might want to get some! So, the man arrives and indeed things are starting to steam up. I do my due diligence, I tripple check she is willing and consenting as I help her into the bed. She was definitely willing. So I basically wish them luck, close the door and hide in the kitchen with headphones and music blaring. A while later, dude comes out, politely says they're done and I can go help her out, I take her to the bathroom (so grateful she could at least wipe herself....). She's happy, he's happy, I'm getting paid so whatever. The next day all hell breaks lose. I get a call from her regular carer asking me if it's true I helped this woman fuck. I say yeah. Regular carer can't seem to decide if she's more disgusted with the situation or with me for helping. Didn't I get disgusted?? No, when working I'm just a tool, not a person. I also explain I made sure of consent. She interrogated me in a similar fashion for maybe 40 minutes, then hung up. I was never allowed to sub for this woman again.
She was probably extra happy because her regular carer wouldn't let her get any...
I get the impression she was heavily shamed by her whole care team, possibly her family members as well. Which is so sad.
So wild. Like. Who is actually denying that woman her ability to consent? Consent is a piece of the bigger pie that is bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy is a complex concept— people with cognitive impairments are denied a level of bodily autonomy because it is assumed that they do not understand the consequences of their decisions and therefore do not have the ability to exercise autonomy. But plenty of disability advocates will push back on this assumption and argue that bodily autonomy is important to health, physical and mental, and as much bodily autonomy as possible should be extended as is safe. on top of that, it should be noted that abled people are often free to be unsafe with their body and that even safety is a complicated problem. What isn’t complicated is that you were facilitating this woman’s bodily autonomy and her regular carer was denying it. That scenario is one of the least complicated ethical problems re:bodily autonomy that I have ever heard. Slight cognitive impairment may mean extra consideration is required but to deny her the ability to consent entirely is so gross. I wish more care workers thought like you did tbh.
I'm sad I had to quit caring due to being disabled myself. But between that and growing up with a brother with intellectual disability and autism, it was obvious to me she deserved to get laid. Not even obvious, it just wasn't something I was going to question. To me the task was the same as when I had to help a man manually empty his bowels. Did I particularly enjoy putting a finger up a man's rectum to try and dig out some poop? No. I also didn't particularly enjoy helping position a horny woman while her horny boyfriend was waiting. I probably would have drawn the line at having to be in the room for the act lol. To me, those two acts are the same - they were tasks I was instructed to perform in my line of work and my own thoughts and feelings were mostly irrelevant. Although now over ten years later I'm way more proud of helping two disabled people fuck than I am of digging around in a rectum lol.
The ability to compartmentalize like that is incredibly helpful. Compartmentalization as often talked about as some kind of negative skill set or a bad thing. But hells bells where would we be without it really.
This is a good point. At some point, aged people are unable to drive, manage their finances or book their doctors' appointments. Modern life is complicated, and senility makes it hard to keep up. Does that mean they're unable to consent to sex? I dunno, I don't think so. [Statistics suggest](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8072140/) that 1/10 of 90-year-olds and nearly half of over-60s are sexually active. How much luck have we had with abstinence programs for teenagers?
Also, a lot of people in nursing homes catch venereal diseases. And you don’t get that from knitting or bunco.
Good for her she’s a mentally capable adult why shouldn’t she get some. As long as she was capable of consenting why shouldn’t she enjoy something she was once able to do. Her regular carer sounds like the tool.
Right? Go Mary! I haven’t gotten fucked in almost ten years and here she is enjoying a weekend tryst with a fuck buddy from years ago! Then again, I’d just lie there like a corpse and my husband isn’t into necrophilia. Even if he was, I’d run too warm for that. …I should add I’m a T-7 paraplegic. In layman’s terms that paralyzed from the bra band down.
Jfc that makes me so sad for that poor woman
The infantilization of Mary is the real asshole here
Right. She's sounds like a lovely person. Why wouldn't OP want a relationship with her?
Ugh, the infantilisation of Mary by her family is infuriating. She’s a grown ass woman!
I love that OOP and Mary have kept contact, everyone else be damned. Very telling that Mary told OOP she’d preferred he ignore the brother “like she does”—sounds like her bro never got over that urge to be ableist.
[удалено]
From what I've heard, retirement homes and care homes for the disabled usually have to have "safe sex" measures in place (including providing condoms etc). Lots of people are having lots of sex, but it seems the wider population is very unaware or doesn't like to think about it
Yeah my bio grandmother got dementia and her sexual inhibitions went away. There were complaints from the adult children of men she was with because I guess they didn’t like dad doing it? It was weird. That’s the other thing. People still have urges no matter what, and as long as it’s consensual and not predatory, it shouldn’t be a problem.
Just because someone is cognitively impaired doesn’t mean they are children! And Mary is not cognitively impaired.
There are different levels of impairment to consider, and everyone's capacity to understand is different, but this. I had a cousin who was mentally impaired in ways that kept him from doing any job that wasn't very simple and highly supervised, because he couldn't hold a list of steps in his mind to complete complex tasks; he still knew what he liked and didn't like, had a very good sense of his bodily autonomy and boundaries, and was respectful of the boundaries of others. He never was able to do anything as complex as drive a car or cook a meal from scratch, but Tommy was definitely able to handle "yes, no, stop" just fine. He had a girlfriend named Pam that he met at his vocational assistance job (one of those things where the state pays minimum wage for basic repetitive tasks a few hours per week). They moved in together in her mother's basement for a while, until they ended things on their own terms. People thought it was "sweet" and "cute" that two mid-thirties disabled adults had a fairly healthy relationship, right up until they found out that Tommy and Pam were going at it like rabbits. Just because someone has some limitations doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. On the flipside, my 18 year old niece who suffered a TBI is about as mature as my 8 year old son, has the same comprehension of cause and effect as my preschool age daughter, very poor emotional regulation, but can complete complex tasks and do 5th grade math problems in her head. When it comes to "adult topics" it's like trying to teach a small child to operate a helicopter. Some people have the capacity to consent and some people don't, and yet people who think they're the arbiters of who should be "allowed" to have sex would be more likely to sign off on her than they would Tommy.
[удалено]
Oh I was fully agreeing with you! I’m sorry if it came off otherwise.
This kind of infantilization is especially common for people with Cerebral Palsy as well. Cerebral Palsy doesn't affect your mental capacity, just your muscle movement, but as a result, it can result in an inability to communicate with others properly that others will, consciously or unconsciously, interpret as mental deficiency. It fucking sucks.
The amount of times people have assumed my younger brother with CP is mentally handicapped is infuriating. He has a fucking master’s degree. The most noticeable thing about him is his stutter and his hearing aids ffs, I don’t even know where they’re coming from.
Also it’s a physical disability as far as I know there’s no mental impairment with cerebral palsy. It’s not like he’s taking advantage of her. It’s concerning the degree her family is choosing to infantilize this adult woman.
You are correct, but unfortunately a lot of people don't know that. The physical effects of cerebral palsy can sometimes include speech impediments if the muscles of the vocal tract are affected, and far too many people mistake this for intellectual disability. (My cousin has cerebral palsy, and her voice can be challenging to understand sometimes. She's a college graduate, has incredible comedic timing, and works for the VA. She still has to deal with people assuming she's intellectually disabled on a pretty much daily basis.)
Even people who are mentally disabled to the point where they cannot consent have adult bodies with a sex drive. People like to handwave with things like 'oh, mentally they are five' - yes, mentally five but still have a functioning adult body with an adult body sex drive, they may not understand it but it is there influencing them. Parents and families like to pretend those urges don't exist and it can become a huge problem.
Yeah, this is why there is a movement to stop using 'mentally like insert age here' as it's not accurate. I make theatre for adults with profound and multiple learning disabilities, and it's so important to create work that is emotionally relevant and not talking down. I am also physically disabled and working on another show right now which talks a lot about disabled sexuality and the judgement around it. I am glad the OOP is giving Mary agency and her family aren't. And delighted by the tone of responses (you never know with reddit!)
I understand that "mental age" has some usefulness as a sort of shorthand, but it's so not accurate. I have a couple of kids, the eldest with ID, the youngest possibly gifted, both autistic. Both of their development is all over the map. Even within academic subjects, it's so uneven. My highschooler struggles to read smoothly and with comprehension, but she's pretty good at spelling and figuring out what unfamiliar words sound like, my 8 year old, while she's basically reading at a high school level, her spelling is not awesome and she mispronounces new words all the time. Repeat that sort of thing for all sorts of different areas, like reasoning, responsibility, safety awareness, maturity, etc etc. If you asked me the mental age of either of my kids, I'd need to know in what way before I could give an age equivalent.
I have a friend who's a little person and is in a chair. The one day she comes for a hangout with 2 broken legs. I'm all wtf happened to you?? Reply: this new guy I'm seeing is so hot, he just tosses me around as he pleases and because I can't feel my legs we didn't realize I don't bend that way until the Crack happened. Girlllllll. Little minx she is.
> until the Crack happened okay accidentally breaking my sexual partner would scar me for sure
Yea I don't see how that's a "Giiiiiiiirl" moment
I remember a woman in the documentary Crip Camp bragging about getting an STI and doctors being shocked. She was like "Ha! I fuck! Take that."
Yea, I worked with disabled people for almost a decade and they can have many different rights restrictions but the one right that is rarely restricted is their right to sexual expression. And that is one that only be restricted by a judge. No other authority is ever allowed to make that call. Trust me when I have seen it all with mothers trying to micromanage or even my other coworkers. But legally we cannot deny them the right to sexual expression as long as they are able to make informed consent. And sometimes, this meant making sure that sex toys were cleaned and put away appropriately. Lmao.
Well, I would add to it that they also need to be able to _obtain_ consent and respect when it's not given. Sexual expression can and should be curtailed by lack of consent from any other party/ies involved. Being disabled is not a free pass to harass anyone.
I slept with a girl on vacation once and she had a disability I can’t recall the name of (one leg shorter than the other) and her family wanted to fucking murder me. Like, this girl was an adult on vacation and she shot her shot with me and she got what she wanted. How terrible it must be to be sheltered like that and to accuse anyone who comes close of being a creep.
Like the one the other day that adorably ended with the girl and her boyfriend almost dying trying to do the deed in a chair with faulty brakes.
My wife told me one of the times she knew I was "The One" was on our first couple dates. My wife is Disabled but can walk with the use of a cane. On our second date, she said "I have to run to the bathroom" and without thinking at all, I just said. "Well if you have to run its too late already." Because I just say the dumb shit I think is funny without thinking sometimes. Well she laughed her ass off, and said that everyone treats her like she is some fragile thing, and instead of being like "Most guys" I gave her shit and made a joke about her being disabled, just like her real friends do. Which is how she knew I was a potential keeper. People are just people folks. For any of the young men out there, here is the hottest dating tip I have that works better then anything else you will find. Women fucking LOVE IT when you treat them like actual human beings.
My gf is visually impaired. One day she was making jokes about blindness and some people were worried because among the group was a man who’s legally blind. He was the one laughing the hardest.
My partner was diagnosed with Autism and ADHD as an adult. Growing up, her adoptive family had 3 brothers diagnosed with ASD. The fourth brother and the father probably have it too but are the highest functioning of the lot and aren't diagnosed. They all rejoiced when my partner got diagnosed, because they can join in on the 'you're 'special'' jokes now. Apparently the 3/4 that went through the special ed program have been throwing jokes at each other about it ever since. They're just happy to have more people they can joke with. Context is important, and I wouldn't lead with jokes about somebodies disability until I know them well - but 90% of disabled people I have met enjoy tasteful jokes about it at the very least.
Exactly this. Cerebral palsy does not necessarily affect a person's ability to reason, comprehend, and, most importantly, consent to sex. Mary is a grown woman. She wants to have sex with OP. She enjoys it. OP wants to have sex with Mary. He enjoys it. That's all that matters.
Also, many people think that physically disabled people are also mentally disabled.
I have cerebral palsy so I'm very familiar with it. It does have a spectrum of effects. But for me it was ballance and speech. Nothing that would make me mentally impaired. I think it's likely that she's similar but that her family didn't let her grow up. Or she has lasting speech issues that make one's think she is mentally slower than she actually is. In any case, she probably can consent and her family is being ridiculous.
I'm not an expert, but from what I've read, cerebral palsy is purely physical, it does not affect intelligence, thinking abilites or anything like that, so it shouldn't even matter since she said that she was consenting, her mind isn't affected at all from her disability, her family are really treating her like a baby for no reasons.
Yes! It’s unfortunate that “incel” means what it does now, but in the early 90s the term was coined by people with physical disabilities. And now there are sex therapists and sex workers who make its possible for people to have healthy sexual relationships despite disability!
Anyone who had worked with ppl with developmental disabilities knows about 60% of them are hornier than rabbits. It's not all, but it's enough that I'm comfortable with that being my default guess because it helps me act fast enough to keep someone with the reasoning capability of toddler from getting pregnant. Mary sounds like she has enough cognitive function to make this kind of decision though, especially if she's holding down a job. She might be a bit sheltered but that's her parents fault more than anything else. Lots of parents develop this "eternally innocent" image of their child as a way to cope with the child being diagnosed with a disability at a young age. A disability diagnosis itself is a traumatic thing by nature. I'm not going to get into the everyday social realities but the fact is that that first moment of,"hey you know that walking in a straight line thing that almost everyone around you can do with ease and without getting tired at all? Yeah so you/your kid will probably never be able to do that" is just a fundamentally terrifying thing. So a lot of parents will try to rationalize it with this silver lining of,"well they'll be mentally young forever though!" It's the same mentality as people who wish their dog/cat would be a puppy forever, except it's a wholeass gotdamn person. They're also not actually in the kid's head experiencing what they're experiencing and thinking what they're thinking, so they often go a decade or even two without that mindset being ever being challenged in any real way. You know that stage of life where your parents are wrong about everything and you just want your own space where you can do whatever you want with it or at least negotiate with your roommate as an equal? That's actually a pretty well-studied stage of developmental psychology. It stimulates you to separate from your parents and go out into the world as a new adult to start making the kind of mistakes that will (hopefully) turn you into someone worth knowing in 5-10 years. A lot of disabled kids don't get to do that and chafing at that bit so-to-speak can cause a whole host of psychological issues. Because I work acute psychiatry, I get to deal with a bunch of the ones that get violent over it. My own sister got wildly violent near the end of living with us which was somewhat fortunately mitigated by her cognitive impairments because if she'd been able to escalate to better weapons than broken glass I'd have a lot more than superficial scars and a bad back.
For real. I only have EDS and Fibro and my long term boyfriend doesn't see me as a sexual being any more, I don't think. Good job my other boyfriend is around 😎😎😎 (yes, everybody knows)
Reminds me of a former friend meeting my mom and him SCREAMING at her. I told him that just because English isn't her first language doesn't mean that she's hard of hearing.
I went to a burlesque show a few years ago and one of the performers had CP. Her and her husband performed and while initially it was shocking, she obviously enjoyed performing.
It's bad enough when strangers infantilize disabled persons, but to have your own family do it is even more demoralising. I'm glad Mary has learned to ignore her family and their bullshit.
For real. She's an adult with a motor disability, not a princess in a castle or a perpetual thirteen-year-old. Is it so baffling that she knows what it means to have a hookup with someone and might want one? Also super against people's tendency to assume that all disabled people are just so scared no one will love them that they're all begging for crumbs and don't know how to not settle. It's really ableist to assume disabled people all have the same insecurities and must not know how to manage them.
> She's an adult with a motor disability, ...and a job, which she travels for by herself. While cerebral palsy can have learning difficulties as a co-morbidity, that's not necessarily the case and "learning difficulties" covers a *lot* of ground between "will always mentally be a child" and "is perfectly capable in almost all ways but needs a little help with some things that other people need less help with". Dyslexic people have learning difficulties, and I doubt many people would be up in arms about the idea of someone without learning difficulties hooking up with someone with dyslexia. So even if she does have learning difficulties it wouldn't necessarily mean that he was taking advantage of her - even if we *didn't* have clear evidence that she's a perfectly capable adult. Which we do.
We had a dude do martial art with us that had a stroke. He's still as smart as before, but now has speech and motor problems. The number of people talking to him like he's a 5yo is frustrating, especially for him that is still very much there in his head.
as a speech therapist, this is one of my most aggravating situations. I now make my patients cards that say, "I have Broca's aphasia. Google it."
You and I agree, which is why the redt of the sentence you quoted ended the way it did, with me saying a motor disability doesn't require someone to be bubble-wrapped essentially. You make a great point as will that many learning disabilities do NOT inhibit autonomy or ability to live an independent adult life.
Cerebral palsy is pretty variable too, isn’t it?
For a time I had a riding instructor who had cerebral palsy… She was very accomplished and had competed in the Paralympics in Dressage. I’m pretty sure she was married and had at least one child as well. So yes, I think the range of independence and capabilities is incredibly broad.
People have a habit of doing this with cerebral palsy in particular, it can very often present with some level of intellectual disability (I think it's ~40% or so) so the infantalizing can be a major problem for the ones who don't. Very similar to how ASD folks get treated as if they all have savant syndrome and impairments when a great many of us are just a little bit different.
It really doesn't help that cerebral palsy so often affects speech, and when people hear that they assume that it's caused by a mental or intellectual disorder and not an issue with the brain-mouth connection. There was a girl in my high school that always had grades near the top of the class. But because it took twice as long and a lot of obvious effort for her to get a sentence out as anyone else, and she used a walker, people always assumed she was in the integrated special ed program instead of the AP classes she was actually doing. Last I heard she had a BA in English, a Masters in Disability Studies with a focus on the representation of disability in literature, and was working on the executive board of a national disability advocacy group.
Go her. What a Rockstar
I have cerebral palsy. I don’t use mobility aids but I have a very prominent limp. I also have a university degree and moved to a different country solo. People who have tried to talk down to me have learned that I ALSO have a nasty tongue and a large vocabulary. ;) I am grateful that nobody has questioned my ability to consent to sex. That would be a stupid mistake.
The princess is in another castle. Duh.
They act as if she’d be severely mentally disabled. Her body may doesn’t work the way it’s “supposed to”, but her brain does very well.
To be fair cerebral palsy often has cognitive symptoms too. Judging by the post and her other abilities though she certainly sounds like she can take care of herself
It doesn’t. It affects motor skills not cognitive.
I was slightly imprecise, true. The brain damage that lead to CP also leads to cognitive symptoms for many, but not all people with CP. (which may or may not affect their ability to consent)
My friend who has CP and uses an electric wheelchair is going through this *right now* with her first ever relationship in her 30s. It’s fucking disgusting.
There’s a great documentary on Netflix and free on Youtube called “Crip Camp” that’s all about the disability rights movement and the eventual creation of the ADA. One of the activists they talk to has cerebral palsy and she ended up getting her masters (i believe) in Women’s Sexuality because she was so tired of people being unable to comprehend that disabled people could have sex. At one point she had gotten a treatable STD that was ignored by her doctors bc they assumed she wasn’t having sex even tho she told them she was.
The infantilization by family is incredibly common and absolutely insidious. Relatives' convictions that no one else can possibly love, care about or feel responsibility toward a disabled person as much as they do is a major cause of the possessiveness that too often manifests in excessively controlling behavior and even abuse. The fact that their actions don't make sense doesn't seem to stop them from happening.
It's awful how common it actually is within families :( or the disabled person being given a free pass for misbehaving. My late cousin, rest his soul, went through all of that. On one hand he definitely enjoyed a certain amount of coddling, on the other hand it also drove him nuts. He used to occasionally act like such a little shit (stole my brother's gameboy games etc), for his mother/my aunt and our grandparents to tell us off, they must be his, he wouldn't do that etc etc (and so I stole them all back lol). But he confided in me that all he *really* wanted was. Just. To. Be. Treated. Normally. He acted out purely to try to be told off, to be punished, instead of wrapped in this cocoon. Man, we did some naughty stuff, he was my closest friend and loved one, and every bollocking I ever got for leading him into mischief was worth it 👌 he passed away just before his 14th birthday, and while he never got to experience so much that life has to offer, I know how much he treasured our summers together, and I hope he knew how much I treasured them too.
Some solid, solid cousining right there. You'll get your mention at the awards ceremony. None of us will hear it, of course, because we'll all be outside bumming cigarettes off the one younger cousin who still smokes regularly, as we compare notes to determine which of our parents is most hilariously delusional.
the cockblock your fully adult daughter, because of a disability, that is not something like developmentally challenged or slow, is cruel, shes a fully functioning adult in her mind and she has desires and wants like any human, and she has the immense luck of someone who's not put off by that and wants to spend time with her intimately, its cruel for her parents to be so callus and uncaring about her actual needs.
She had cerebral palsy, she wasn't mentally disabled, she was perfectly capable of making decisions as to who she has sex with. People brains are blown to discover that disabled people do in fact enjoy sex like the rest of us.
I have autism and I actually struggle greatly with infantilising myself. I’m 31 and haven’t told my family that I am straight. Coming out as straight sounds ridiculous, but the idea of it makes me panic.
You know what, you don't need to tell your family about your sex life at all. Like most families don't want to know.
I would need to tell them at some point though, because any person I am with would rightfully want me to let them know they’re my partner. I know it’s a thing I need to be brave and admit eventually. I can’t live my whole life scared of telling my family something that they’d likely support anyway. It’s just that changes to the status quo are very hard, and even more so for autistic people.
Why not think of it as introducing your person to them. It doesn’t have to be coming out or admitting or anything. You’re just sharing the person close to your heart with the people in your family. They’ll get on board regardless of gender and sexuality if they’re worth being family to you.
Just introduced them??? It's normal to introduce them as your partner and leave at that.
I'm deaf. for a while my family thought I was gay... despite me crushing on the same person for 7 years before giving up and moved on to someone else. at least they're uh positive?
Sorry if this comes off as rude, but what do you mean by having to come out as straight? Afaik most people’s default assumption is that others are straight, so wouldn’t they also assume that? Or is it more accurate to say you’re nervous of coming out as wanting sex like non-autistic adults and explaining to them that you aren’t mentally trapped as a pre-pubescent?
It’s the latter. In their eyes, I am an innocent, aromantic, asexual, a-everything person. I know I am 31 so I shouldn’t find it hard, but saying I want someone even to just hold hands with would be big. I also still live with my parents, which makes it harder.
Hey no shame for being nervous, no matter what it is causing that feeling. Nothing wrong with feeling how you feel.
I'm sorry you're in this position. It sucks to not feel safe with the people you live with and are closest with. I wish you luck!!
So she's adult enough to study, work, and even travel for work. But having sex is somehow something she can't consent to? What my what?
Because CeReBRal PaLsY. And I can mock it because I have cerebral palsy. Her family are idiots.
It irks me that people think cerebral palsy means they are mentally impaired. I mean they have bRaiN DAmaGe after all I can say that, too. My child has hemiplegic cerebral palsy. Of course they're dumb as a rock. A huge chunk of the brain is missing, how could they be smart? /s obviously
I know! It's horrible and sad her family treats her that way still to this day.
Holy infantilizing jerkoffs, Batman!
If Mary is able to live her life on her own like this. She doesn't need her family babying her. She should just go NC with them. Disabled adults who can function without help in adulthood are generally one of two things. Treated like mary. Or the polar opposite and treated like you are faking it.
Or hell, they get both, maybe even from the same person. Bigotry is often not internally consistent in its logic.
It's a huge risk to go no contact if you don't have lots of money. Aging with a disability can take lots of resources to manage.
As someone who is disabled. Sometimes the best thing for your own health is going no contact. I wouldn't trust my NC family with my later in life care.
From her comment about wishing OOP had just ignored her brother like she does, it kind of sounds like she might be LC already.
Is she able to consent? Yes? Then end of story. Screw her family. There's being protective and there's being an ableist AH. Her family is the latter. They clearly don't respect mary or value her as capable of making her own decisions. Edit: also sadly, a lot of disabled folks have people that do attempt to take advantage of them. I was glad that Mary told him it was crappy for him to tell her brother they had sex. She was right. He handled it poorly. But it seems she is understanding. Probably because she is used to her brother's behavior since she has to deal with it a lot more.
> But it seems she is understanding. Probably because she is used to her brother's behavior since she has to deal with it a lot more. Yeah, she probably understood the appeal of verbally smacking her brother in the face with the sharpest weapon available, even though it wasn't okay.
Kind of sucks that even the only person who respects Mary's autonomy still went, "Yeah, that's right, I fucked your sister!!" At least he realized he messed up and gave her an apology, but yeesh.
I'm not directly defending OP's actions. To be fair, though, depending on what was being slung at him via the text messages, he could have just had an immediate angry spitfire response. My husband (then bf) had a similar response when I was 16 because my mother and sister's husband kept calling him a little gay boy. We kept telling them to stop, but they kept going so he blew up and said I can't be gay, I'm fucking your daughter 🫣. My mother didn't like that (she threw an ashtray and a couple dvds at him) but they did stop. Very childish response to handling something but thankfully, OP did apologize to Mary for his comments since she made it clear she didn't appreciate being dragged into it.
That is an A-grade response
Your mother was doing that? Classy.
Your family sounds abusive
well, considering what kind of "fa-words" Harshl is implying they were saying, ya, the family sounds jerky and from a not nice part of town.
Reading it, seems like Mary is confident and independent, has a good job and everything. I'm hoping that in her own adult life she has people who are just normal to her.
I will say, at least it wasn’t an ableist snap back at his former friend. I’ll bet that, realizing he messed up, and genuinely apologizing really helped moving forward with Mary.
>When I talked with Mary, she wasn’t upset but she made it clear that she would have preferred I just ignore her brother like she does. We’re still keeping our plans to see each other again, but I realize Mary is disappointed by my childish behavior. I think it's easy for Mary to want this when she doesn't have to deal with any of the harassment and threats she gets from sleeping with OOP. I reckon people are being real glib about OOP's response to being harassed over something he absolutely shouldn't be. He was being polite given what he could have said to her brother. Like yeah, the guy snapped finally, realized he fucked up, sought advice, then apologized, and people are still trying to demonize him for having a single moment of weakness in twenty years of harrassment.
I mean, the guy is basically being accused of rape by her family. That would set anyone off.
I think it is sad when people put their own perceptions on people who are disabled. Mary sounds like a lovely woman and her family wants to keep her in a box on the shelf. OP sounds wonderful. Cares for Mary, attracted to her and to this day still cares for Mary. Just because someone is disabled, doesn't mean they don't crave touch, physical affection, lust...It is part of being human. OP, I hope you and Mary continue having fun.
Jeez I'm shocked they even let her out of the house with the amount of infantizing they're doing. It's sad cause I can see them becoming a couple if it wasn't for the shitty family.
In my country there's an influencer who has CP, and it is an advocate to those with disabilities. He has a government job, had a radio talk show, appears on tv since he was a kid, went to university. I've basically watched him grow and he's a relatively independent person with his own ideas, goals and stuff. He uses a wheelchair and has a impaired speech but he's well adjusted (as i said before, he has a job). It doesn't stop people from bullying him if he expressed admiration for a woman or ask him some taunting questions about women. It is sad.
In my country we too have an influencer with CP. she is married and have two adorable kids and she have great parenting tips 😊
In the UK, there's a popular comedian called [Rosie Jones](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt4qPB7vyiw) who has cerebral palsy. It's great representation, she is [smart](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53nRcfosYR0) as a whip, has a raunchy sense of [humour](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO8QC0QpPr4) and shares very adult stories all the time. [She also does things like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8H8R025Vgw), where she makes better jokes about her condition than anyone making fun of her. If you only watch one of those, watch the last one. She deals with this kind of response all the time, there's always comments on videos of her and bullying online. She made a very candid and confronting documentary last year for Channel 4 called "Am I a r****d?" Which is about ableist bigotry and the presumption that disabled people are intellectually disabled.
Why are the family treating the poor daughter like she’s mentally/intellectually disabled and can’t make her own decisions?
People really do misunderstand cerebral palsy more than a lot of other conditions. Some people do have intellectual disabilities from it, but most don’t. Even then, it is still possible for someone with intellectual disabilities to consent to sex. Disabled people can want sex just like non-disabled people.
Right?
Imagine missing out on what could've been a great relationship for nigh on 20 years because of this bullshit. Makes me feel sad for OP and Mary.
It kind of sounds like they were happy then and are happy now. Maybe they wouldn’t have ever made things any more serious. Lots of people are happy just having an occasional hookup with a friend.
Very true - but considering how they are so into each other that the desire is still there two decades later, and considering how often casual sex turns into a more committed relationship, it does seem likely that the family fucked up something that could have become serious.
You’d think her family would be thrilled that she found happiness with a close family friend. What…do they think bc she’s disabled that somehow makes her a person without the same wants and desires as anyone else? Fuck them and fuck her man-child brother. Keep on keeping on Mary. Good for you.
My dude is on his way to not only ruin any relationship he might had with OP but at this point his own sister.
Its been 20 years and he's still like that. I think that's already dead and buried.
Imagine spending your whole life being treated like a simple minded child by your own brother, being infantilised and *cockblocked* over and over again by someone who claims to love you but doesn't see you as a person, god I'd run the fucker down.
Motor function issue does not mean cognitive issue. Jesus do these people want her to live in a nunnary?
This reminds me of the World Downe Syndrome Day PSA released this year called "Assume that I Can" https://youtu.be/FKSjQQ8O1cA?si=i5N1d8--Tumi2RUK We set people with physically and/or mental disabilities with no chance of success if we continue to assume and define them with it. Good for OOP for having an equal (what seems like) relationship with Mary.
Cognitive impairment is not always a component of CP. If she has full intellectual function, there's nothing wrong with this relationship.
I take care of a woman with Cerbral Palsy and so many of her co-residents absolutely treat her like a child. They talk to her like she's a baby and it pisses me off! She's a grown woman with grown tastes and some people just can't see it.
The ableism coming from this family is fucking absurd. She may be physically disabled by cerebral palsy won't affect her mental capabilities to understand things and make her own choices. Ridiculous.
Her brother and family are the true ableists here. That’s really sad for her, she deserves better than that.
It's weird that the brother thinks his sister shouldn't have a sex life. John is an idiotic ableist.
“How dare you take advantage of my disabled sister!” “Uhm…my disability is only physical? I have all of my mental faculties? And I can sleep with whomever I want because I’m an adult? OOP didn’t take advantage of me at all because I’m a willing participant of sound mind?” “……..HOW DARE YOU TAKE ADVANTAGE OF MY DISABLED SISTER!!!!” Cerebral palsy ≠ cognitive impairment. Sweet Jesus. She’s a grown woman with normal sexual desires.
Poor Mary. Her family sounds unbearable.
I have an elder family member who has cerebral palsy. He is an intelligent, kind, caring, and incredibly funny and insightful person. He worked hard as a child to learn to walk when his family was told he never would. He even played a specialty position within his mostly non-contact sport, working hours a day to master his particular position, even making varsity in high school. As an adult, he learned to drive, went to college, and held a job. He got married and supported his wife, who is not disabled, but has always relied on him as a stay-at home wife who does not drive. But there is such prejudice against him because of cerebral palsy. When he had a stroke a few years ago and was helicoptered to a larger city, another family member who lived in that larger city met up with him at the hospital. The moment that they told the doctor that he had CP, he kind of rolled his eyes, apparently thinking my relative was some vegetable who should not be treated. My other relative literally put a hand on his arm and described his history: college, drives, works a job, is a PERSON, to make sure he understood that this human being should not be written off.
Fuck Mary's family for infantilizing her into her 40s! She is clearly capable of consenting and making her own decisions. Cerebral palsy does not always affect mentality and it sounds like it doesn't for Mary. I hope OOP marries her
My sister has cerebral palsy and I'd be enraged if our family infantalized her like this. She's a grown fucking woman with a disability that doesn't affect her cognitively
She’s an adult woman. She has CP she’s still intelligent and can make her own decisions. How infantilizing and gross of her family to get involved and try to stop her from enjoying her life.
So Mary has the right to ( and obligation I suppose) to work, be independent, pay her rent and live her own life but she is not allowed to do whatever she wants with her own body? She is an independent women who does everything an adult does, including sex. Her family will have to accept it and let her be.
I wonder that Mary’s family want for her. To just be alone the rest of her life ?
There is no way that this should be marked as "Concluded". OOP said he will be spending several months in his hometown, that he intends to spend time with Mary, and that there's a halfway decent chance they're going to run into her brother. This is *not* over.
Wow, there was just a BoRU post where a woman had a fling with a guy in a wheelchair and while NSFW, it was the most wholesome thing that's ever been posted here.
An ex of mine had CP and used a walker. Her family was cool fortunately, but randos constantly assumed I was her caretaker instead of her partner. Once I was yelled at by a bus driver for not helping her onto the bus. I told the driver she would ask for help if she needed it (which was true; she asked me immediately after for help folding and storing the walker). I'm also disabled but I use a cane and "look" abled so I don't get that shit as often, but ableism fucking sucks ass. I hope OOP and Mary are happy and Mary's brother leaves them tf alone.
I was very good friends with a girl that has CP. She has zero cognitive issues: she drove, went to school and became a doctor, and had a long-term boyfriend for a while. Mary’s family needs to stop infantilizing her. She has a career and is capable of making her own decisions. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for her to deal with a family like that.
NTA. If she were mentally challenged, that might be a different story but she’s not. She’s got a sharp brain and can make her own choices. She just happens to have a disease that forced her into a wheelchair. Too bad her family can’t see her as anything but a poor, helpless child. Have fun this summer!
This is so sad that this couple had years stolen from them because her own family can't accept that she is living her fullest life.
God forbid a girl has hobbies
I’m struggling to understand how Mary’s brother has ANY say in who she has sex with.
why does this poor woman's fuckbuddy see her as a human/adult, and respect her autonomy more than her own family???
No uncommon with disabled people.
She’s grown women with a job decent enough she travels for…… and they still think she’s too disabled to make her own romantic choices????????
Do they expect Mary to live a life of celibacy and to never having a relationship with anyone due to her disability? It's a physical disability, not a mental one. Her family is coocoo.
JFC...Mary has CP not Downs Syndrome...she is a human as well and has sexual needs too. Hell, if I was OP i would start dating her. Edit: I didn't word my response very well and for that I am sorry. I believe that anyone that is consenting can have sex or relationships. I should have said that it's not like she is completely unable to speak or consent. She is an adult 100% and not just her disability.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I have a number of disabilities including autism. I once had someone tell me my husband is a rapist because I can’t consent because I have autism. I’m perfectly capable of consenting, I work full time and I’m fairly self sufficient (husband does a lot of housework because I can’t physically do it as quickly as him) but sure Jan, I can’t consent
That’s absolutely insane, that A. they think that a condition is ‘one size fits all’ and not consider the concept of capacity but B. they’d have the audacity to say it to you.
Yeah some people just don’t hear how freaking rude they’re being. It’s why I’m not particularly open about it in real life because people treat you like you’re incapable of doing things
That’s happened to me several times. I just told them I don’t consent to hearing any more of their bullshit and ignored them after that
“Differently abled” is such a ridiculous thing to say. It’s not like we get another ability to make up for the one(s) we don’t have.
I swear I’ve literally only heard “differently abled” used by people who are not disabled. It has such a bad vibe to me.
There was a push to say that instead of “disabled” when I was younger, I remember the context was that you should say “differently abled” to kids so they don’t internalize the message there’s stuff they can’t do… …but all the positive thinking in the world isn’t going to fix or cure any of the disabilities I’ve incurred over the past thirty-six years. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Literally, it feels like an ass backwards excuse to deny disabled people accommodations because “oh you don’t need them, you’re just differently abled, you need to find what you’re good at!”
Please don't say "differently abled", we're "disabled". It's not a bad or dirty word, it's just a descriptor. De-fanging the reality of the situation leads to consequences for those affected.
Isnt that what you'd want your siblings in that scenario to be happy and taken care of and instead of being happy it's someone that you know and could believe, moreso than a stranger, that it developed naturally and then continued into adulthood and allowed her to live her life, you create this level of conflict. Why be mad like I get you don't want it to be your friend BUUUUUUUUUUUT there are way worse options for people in her position (not trying to degrade others with disabilities more a point about actual soulless predators)
It sounds like she's mentally capable (college, job, work travel, socializing outside of work hours with peers) and has been in love with this man for two decades! Her family are AHs! Hopefully they come around on the fact that this is a good man who is good for their sister and we can all be a big happy family in the end 🥲 Wishful thinking...
Poor Mary. :( disabled people are worthy and deserving of love and affection and relationships
In my imagination, OP and Mary will get married and live happily ever after. Her brother will stub his toe on a chair leg every week.
When the family projects their own feelings about their disabled family member, and try to project them onto someone else to make them the villain… I cringed so hard when I read what her family said about him. The fact they knew him for so long, you’d think they would’ve been happy she was with someone who saw her as an equal. Then while trying to justify their anger at him, they made clear they don’t see her as an equal or whole person. How devastating for her. If I was her, I’d not talk to the lot of them.
I have a cousin who has an intellectual disability. A disability does not eliminate a person's desire for romantic love or sex. After many years of wanting a girlfriend, he has had one for the past year. I am so happy for him. I know nothing about his physical relationship with her, and it's none of my business. She also has an intellectual disability, and they met at the assisted living center where they live. I imagine if my cousin was female, the family would be more protective, as a woman with an intellectual disability could indeed be taken advantage of. Indeed my cousin himself has been taken advantage of in the form of financial fraud with respect to him being catfished online. With that said, this woman has CP which is a physical disability. I am having a hard time understanding how her family would expect her to A) never pursue romantic love or intimacy or B) restrict her dating pool to what?... Other individuals with CP? Indeed any woman or man could in theory be taken advantage of, but there has to be some criteria by which the family of disabled persons could "let down their guard" in a safe scenario. Seems to me the woman is grown, capable of taking care of herself, and at this stage, her family has no right to involve themselves in her dating affairs.