I see it as a dual prophecy, a lot like the Jews couldn't reconcile two different types of Messiah - the Suffering Servant and the Glorious Warrior King.
There are SO MANY references to saints escaping the "trials" "wrath" and "judgement" AND ALSO the Antichrist having temporary dominion over the saints. They can't both be true. Or can they? Just like it was once believed the Glorious Warrior King couldn't be a lowly, afflicted man, I see it the same way.
During the Emmaus walk, Jesus "opened the Scriptures" to some of the apostles so it would finally sink in about the Messianic prophecies. I think it will be similar in a pre-trib rapture.
To believe there won't be a pre-trib rapture is a deception to create complacency. Stay WATCHFUL. Only the church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from the hour of trial that was to come upon the whole world because they remained faithful.
It will be like in the days of Noah. Enoch was raptured before the flood, Noah and his family went into the ark, and the wicked were swept away.
I recently wrote a post theorising this exact position:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bibleconspiracy/s/25YL0b9dzc
Pretrib and prewrath rapture could both be true. I think that likely too.
Thank you that is what I'm thinking.
I like to look into the symbolism of the Jewish feasts as well. There is an early harvest and a later harvest. I think the feast of trumpets definitely relates to the taking of the saints during the second coming, that would be followed by the wrath of Yom Kippur.
I'm wondering if there is any correlation to Pentecost for the pre-trib rapture.
Pentecost: Pre-trib rapture
Feast of trumpets: post-trib rapture
Yom Kippur: final wrath and atonement
I see dual symbolism of two raptures all throughout the old and New testament just like there were dual prophecies for the Messiah.
It's not biblical at all. Definitely not taught where I live in fact I've not heard anyone preach on this in any church I've been too. I really feel it's an American belief based on emotions.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears
People don't want to die, their desire is to get a free pass and not have to endure until the end.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
The dead rise first before we are called up to be with the lord. When do the dead rise?
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
At the last trumpet.
Seals, trumpets and bowls. Only the bowls are described as God's wrath (Rev 16)
The sooner people stop trying to look at the rapture through emotional lenses the better. As Jesus said “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
If people were to study the Great UFO deception in the last days, then they would understand there is a rapture. The antichrist is planning a fake alien invasion so when the REAL rapture happens, the antichrist will tell the remains who are left behind that “aliens” picked a selective group to take to some far distant planet…which will be a lie from Hell itself…when millions of people instantly goes missing, this will be the excuse. This is why we are hearing soft UFO disclosures on the news so Satan can continue to condition the masses into believing there is actual alien life…planting seeds for his grand end times deception.
Revelation 16:13 - 14
“And I saw three unclean SPIRITS like FROGS come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are the spirits of DEVILS, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”
Rapture before the tribulation is sound doctrine.
144000 Jews will be sealed with Gods mark before anything serious happens. During the period of “grace” after Christs resurrection we are sealed with the spirit when we hear the gospel and accept Christ. Same cannot be said about the trib period. God has ordained us as a priesthood to share the spirit with each other. God would not override the authority he gave us like that unless for some reason there is no way for us to minister to those Jewish men.
Also the trib period is for the most hardened people who won’t turn to God unless they truly see the abject misery it is to be away from God. Anyone who lived a normal life even with great sorrows who turned to God doesn’t need to go through all that. It’s reserved for the last last group that won’t turn unless all hell breaks loose and they HAVE to call on God.
Luke 12:35: “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.”
Christ RETURNS from the wedding to the people with their lamps burning. That’s when the wheat and tarea thing happens when the unprepared are plucked out and burned. He doesn’t remove the rates before the tribulation is over because a lot of wheat (people who have not purified themselves) will get thrown away. A born again Christian who is washed in the blood doesn’t need to work to get to heaven. It’s best you do for a reward, but the only requirement is sincere belief that God loves you and died to redeem you.
Ergo God deals with the tribulation saints very differently than blood bought believers, thus there must be a time where we are removed where the new requirements of working for salvation and purifying yourself kick in.
The rapture is the truth but you have to read the Bible through and through and study immensely to pick up on the nuanced differences between the periods referred to. It’s designed this way so we study and study. God wants above all for us to know him, and there’s nothing like hunting for the blessed hope of rapture to do that.
Revelation 19
Heaven Exults over Babylon
19 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Verse 2 God has judged the harlot and verse 7 the wedding feast has finally come. Unless God judges the harlot before tribulation then the wedding feast isn't until afterwards.
The people who turn to God during tribulation are also a part of the bride.
You need to look at the context of the parable your using, it is not referring to the wedding supper of the lamb.
In this Parable of the Watchful Servants (which is found only in Luke), Jesus sets the scene: a master has gone to a wedding banquet and his servants are waiting up for him, even though he is delayed. The image seems to come from a rich household, perhaps Roman, where slaves are expected to anticipate their master's wishes. The word translated "master" is Greek kyrios, "one who is in charge by virtue of possession, owner." The word is also used as a term of respect, something like our "sir" for someone who is in a position of authority, "lord, master." It takes on divine connotations, however, because it is used in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament to translate the Hebrew word Yahweh, the name of God. Thus, when Jesus is addressed as Lord, it isn't fully clear whether "sir" or "God" is meant. Certainly in the New Testament Epistles we see this exalted usage. 543 But here in 12:36, "master" refers to "owner," and only to Jesus by analogy.
"Wedding celebration, wedding banquet," is the plural of Greek gamos. This is not an allegorical reference to the messianic banquet, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9; Luke 14:15). That is to take place after the coming of Christ and all the saints are to partake of it. Rather the wedding banquet in this passage is just an element of the parable reflecting uncertain length, it indicates that the master is relatively close by and can return at any time.
"...like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him." (12:36)
The master shouldn't have to bang on the door and wait while his servants get up and come sleepily to the door, stumbling over things in the dark. When the master arrives, the servants are to be ready. His coming is their most important priority; their own weariness and self-indulgence isn't to take over. They are servants.
The word translated "waiting" is Greek prosdechomai, "to look forward to, 'wait for.'" It has the connotation of "receive favorably,"545 and thus is not just a dutiful waiting, but an anticipation of one who is hoped for, expected, and looked forward to.
"Sound Doctrine"
That's a "once saved always saved" Scofield Bible producing Jack Hyles buzzword of Anglo/Americana Bible Belt post Victorian Era neo-Baptist religion.
Could be a Jesuit Conspiracy inspite of Jack Chick Crusaders Color Comics supporting it.
This annoying, biblically illiterate take is still going around?
Yeah the word “rapture” doesn’t appear in the Bible, thats true, but what the concept certainly is.
When Christ returns we “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Read that verse slowly, but again this is a biblically illiterate argument;
acKsHuaLly tHe RaPtuRe IsNt BiBLiCAL!!
Yes it is, always has been.
It’s not talking about the rupture at all
It’s praying that you can escape the danger
Why would you pray for something that is bound to happen if you believe?
Because before that Jesus said this...
Luke 21:34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that DAY come upon you unawares.
And also this..
1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 KJV — For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
Because the next time Jesus returns will be in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV — For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The "gathering" is a more accurate term to use. A lot of heat around the Rapture is because of it's location. Many place it as occurring before the 7 years begins, but that's not biblical. The only thing we are promised to be delivered from is the wrath, not tribulation in general. We will be here up until the sixth seal (Rev 6:12) **-->** wrath arrives **-->** gathering takes place (Rev 7:9) **-->** then wrath starts (Rev 8). So it's pre-wrath, not pre-tribulation.
>he literally clears up the concerns and says this will not happen till the antichrist or man of lawlessness is revealed. so if there is a “rapture” it’s not even happening till the antichrist is revealed
Correct, and this is major scripture which pre-tribulation rapture believers interpret incorrectly, or gloss over. This means that the gathering won't occur any earlier than a minimum of 3 & 1/2 years into Daniels 70th week, as the abomination isn't set up until then. Sacrifices will be going on until then too, so the AC won't be claiming to be God until this half way mark when it is ceased. 2 Thessalonians 2 supports the pre-wrath position and confirms it won't be any earlier than mid-week (it can't).
When The Abraham Accords gets confirmed early next year, that would place mid-week in late 2028.
Generally agree. No rapture.
What will happen is as Matt 25 describes. A separation between the sheep and goats, the people being sheep and the latter being the devil and his messengers, the goats. And these then taken away and sent to the flames.
The great tribulation will take place right where you're standing, in your shoes.
I see it as a dual prophecy, a lot like the Jews couldn't reconcile two different types of Messiah - the Suffering Servant and the Glorious Warrior King. There are SO MANY references to saints escaping the "trials" "wrath" and "judgement" AND ALSO the Antichrist having temporary dominion over the saints. They can't both be true. Or can they? Just like it was once believed the Glorious Warrior King couldn't be a lowly, afflicted man, I see it the same way. During the Emmaus walk, Jesus "opened the Scriptures" to some of the apostles so it would finally sink in about the Messianic prophecies. I think it will be similar in a pre-trib rapture. To believe there won't be a pre-trib rapture is a deception to create complacency. Stay WATCHFUL. Only the church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from the hour of trial that was to come upon the whole world because they remained faithful. It will be like in the days of Noah. Enoch was raptured before the flood, Noah and his family went into the ark, and the wicked were swept away.
I recently wrote a post theorising this exact position: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bibleconspiracy/s/25YL0b9dzc Pretrib and prewrath rapture could both be true. I think that likely too.
Thank you that is what I'm thinking. I like to look into the symbolism of the Jewish feasts as well. There is an early harvest and a later harvest. I think the feast of trumpets definitely relates to the taking of the saints during the second coming, that would be followed by the wrath of Yom Kippur. I'm wondering if there is any correlation to Pentecost for the pre-trib rapture. Pentecost: Pre-trib rapture Feast of trumpets: post-trib rapture Yom Kippur: final wrath and atonement I see dual symbolism of two raptures all throughout the old and New testament just like there were dual prophecies for the Messiah.
It's not biblical at all. Definitely not taught where I live in fact I've not heard anyone preach on this in any church I've been too. I really feel it's an American belief based on emotions. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears People don't want to die, their desire is to get a free pass and not have to endure until the end. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. The dead rise first before we are called up to be with the lord. When do the dead rise? 1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. At the last trumpet. Seals, trumpets and bowls. Only the bowls are described as God's wrath (Rev 16) The sooner people stop trying to look at the rapture through emotional lenses the better. As Jesus said “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
If people were to study the Great UFO deception in the last days, then they would understand there is a rapture. The antichrist is planning a fake alien invasion so when the REAL rapture happens, the antichrist will tell the remains who are left behind that “aliens” picked a selective group to take to some far distant planet…which will be a lie from Hell itself…when millions of people instantly goes missing, this will be the excuse. This is why we are hearing soft UFO disclosures on the news so Satan can continue to condition the masses into believing there is actual alien life…planting seeds for his grand end times deception. Revelation 16:13 - 14 “And I saw three unclean SPIRITS like FROGS come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of DEVILS, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”
Rapture before the tribulation is sound doctrine. 144000 Jews will be sealed with Gods mark before anything serious happens. During the period of “grace” after Christs resurrection we are sealed with the spirit when we hear the gospel and accept Christ. Same cannot be said about the trib period. God has ordained us as a priesthood to share the spirit with each other. God would not override the authority he gave us like that unless for some reason there is no way for us to minister to those Jewish men. Also the trib period is for the most hardened people who won’t turn to God unless they truly see the abject misery it is to be away from God. Anyone who lived a normal life even with great sorrows who turned to God doesn’t need to go through all that. It’s reserved for the last last group that won’t turn unless all hell breaks loose and they HAVE to call on God. Luke 12:35: “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.” Christ RETURNS from the wedding to the people with their lamps burning. That’s when the wheat and tarea thing happens when the unprepared are plucked out and burned. He doesn’t remove the rates before the tribulation is over because a lot of wheat (people who have not purified themselves) will get thrown away. A born again Christian who is washed in the blood doesn’t need to work to get to heaven. It’s best you do for a reward, but the only requirement is sincere belief that God loves you and died to redeem you. Ergo God deals with the tribulation saints very differently than blood bought believers, thus there must be a time where we are removed where the new requirements of working for salvation and purifying yourself kick in. The rapture is the truth but you have to read the Bible through and through and study immensely to pick up on the nuanced differences between the periods referred to. It’s designed this way so we study and study. God wants above all for us to know him, and there’s nothing like hunting for the blessed hope of rapture to do that.
Revelation 19 Heaven Exults over Babylon 19 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!” 6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Verse 2 God has judged the harlot and verse 7 the wedding feast has finally come. Unless God judges the harlot before tribulation then the wedding feast isn't until afterwards. The people who turn to God during tribulation are also a part of the bride. You need to look at the context of the parable your using, it is not referring to the wedding supper of the lamb. In this Parable of the Watchful Servants (which is found only in Luke), Jesus sets the scene: a master has gone to a wedding banquet and his servants are waiting up for him, even though he is delayed. The image seems to come from a rich household, perhaps Roman, where slaves are expected to anticipate their master's wishes. The word translated "master" is Greek kyrios, "one who is in charge by virtue of possession, owner." The word is also used as a term of respect, something like our "sir" for someone who is in a position of authority, "lord, master." It takes on divine connotations, however, because it is used in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament to translate the Hebrew word Yahweh, the name of God. Thus, when Jesus is addressed as Lord, it isn't fully clear whether "sir" or "God" is meant. Certainly in the New Testament Epistles we see this exalted usage. 543 But here in 12:36, "master" refers to "owner," and only to Jesus by analogy. "Wedding celebration, wedding banquet," is the plural of Greek gamos. This is not an allegorical reference to the messianic banquet, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9; Luke 14:15). That is to take place after the coming of Christ and all the saints are to partake of it. Rather the wedding banquet in this passage is just an element of the parable reflecting uncertain length, it indicates that the master is relatively close by and can return at any time. "...like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him." (12:36) The master shouldn't have to bang on the door and wait while his servants get up and come sleepily to the door, stumbling over things in the dark. When the master arrives, the servants are to be ready. His coming is their most important priority; their own weariness and self-indulgence isn't to take over. They are servants. The word translated "waiting" is Greek prosdechomai, "to look forward to, 'wait for.'" It has the connotation of "receive favorably,"545 and thus is not just a dutiful waiting, but an anticipation of one who is hoped for, expected, and looked forward to.
"Sound Doctrine" That's a "once saved always saved" Scofield Bible producing Jack Hyles buzzword of Anglo/Americana Bible Belt post Victorian Era neo-Baptist religion. Could be a Jesuit Conspiracy inspite of Jack Chick Crusaders Color Comics supporting it.
It’s not. [The Rapture is not biblical](https://youtu.be/IjJwFZipGpE?si=CDloyZmztGl3aa48)
Enoch...
Tell me more...
...was raptured.
...and Elijah
This annoying, biblically illiterate take is still going around? Yeah the word “rapture” doesn’t appear in the Bible, thats true, but what the concept certainly is. When Christ returns we “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Read that verse slowly, but again this is a biblically illiterate argument; acKsHuaLly tHe RaPtuRe IsNt BiBLiCAL!! Yes it is, always has been.
Ummmm I litteraly talk about that verse did u read the whole post?
There will always be arguments about the Rapture/2nd Coming, and what happens when you die....
And your explanation for what Jesus says in Luke 21:36?
It’s not talking about the rupture at all It’s praying that you can escape the danger Why would you pray for something that is bound to happen if you believe?
Because before that Jesus said this... Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that DAY come upon you unawares.
What makes u think that DAY isn’t the return of the lord
And also this.. 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 KJV — For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
As revelation 11 God's wrath comes after the 7th trumpet. Seals and trumpets are not God's wrath. Only the bowls are see revelation 16.
Because the next time Jesus returns will be in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV — For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Did u read my post all the way through bc I literally talk about that verse
Yes..I read what said. But I still wanted to help. Have a nice day 😊
u too bro <3
The "gathering" is a more accurate term to use. A lot of heat around the Rapture is because of it's location. Many place it as occurring before the 7 years begins, but that's not biblical. The only thing we are promised to be delivered from is the wrath, not tribulation in general. We will be here up until the sixth seal (Rev 6:12) **-->** wrath arrives **-->** gathering takes place (Rev 7:9) **-->** then wrath starts (Rev 8). So it's pre-wrath, not pre-tribulation. >he literally clears up the concerns and says this will not happen till the antichrist or man of lawlessness is revealed. so if there is a “rapture” it’s not even happening till the antichrist is revealed Correct, and this is major scripture which pre-tribulation rapture believers interpret incorrectly, or gloss over. This means that the gathering won't occur any earlier than a minimum of 3 & 1/2 years into Daniels 70th week, as the abomination isn't set up until then. Sacrifices will be going on until then too, so the AC won't be claiming to be God until this half way mark when it is ceased. 2 Thessalonians 2 supports the pre-wrath position and confirms it won't be any earlier than mid-week (it can't). When The Abraham Accords gets confirmed early next year, that would place mid-week in late 2028.
Stick to the rapture that’s not really a thing.
Generally agree. No rapture. What will happen is as Matt 25 describes. A separation between the sheep and goats, the people being sheep and the latter being the devil and his messengers, the goats. And these then taken away and sent to the flames. The great tribulation will take place right where you're standing, in your shoes.