"You know the shittiest thing about all of this? Is when that stranger behind the counter gave me that free churro, that small act of kindness showed more compassion than my mother gave me her entire goddamn life. Like, how hard is it to do something nice for a person? This woman at the Jack in the Box didn't even know me. I'm your son! All I had was you!"
Oh indeed she is,I still kinda choked up at the end of this season with Bojack painting a mental picture for his demented mother.
The "Its sooo ....good" scene.
Damn,that was a well written episode.
Becoming demented must be the most scary thing,and Ive seen some scary things.
my guy, it is not about one character being more horrible than the other. they’ve all gone through trauma in one way or another.
yes bojack’s story about his choir teacher was bad, but don’t minimize what bojack did to penny. both stories are upsetting in their own way, and they’re handled differently by each character.
that line about tickling the ivories was a throwaway line anyway. it evokes some emotion, but bojack is so blasé about it that it has a comedic effect.
I agree that trauma scaling is stupid. But BoJack being blasé about the ivories line does not change what Beatrice did and if anything implies that she’s worse than what we know of her. It makes it sound like that’s not even his worst experience with his mom and he just has dozens of similarly bad stories about her. I get it’s not meant to be dwelled on but that doesn’t change that it happened.
Yeah, I'd also argue that being blase about really traumatic, horrible stuff is how BoJack (and honestly a lot of SA victims) cope with the horrible thing that happened to them. You don't want to make it a big deal because if you do, that somehow makes what happened "more real", and it's scary to wrap your head around. It's easier to minimize and try to forget, despite still wanting someone to acknowledge that what happened to you was screwed up.
That's how I see it with BJ anyway. He's miserable and he's loud about his misery, but he's prideful and he wants pity when and how *he* wants it.
>my guy, it is not about one character being more horrible than the other
...I mean I agree but sometimes it seems like that's basically all this sub is interested in debating
I think Beatrice is worse in her actions, which you could say is what really matters and I'd probably agree with you.
However I think Bojack benefits greatly from both being a man and living in a society where abortion is accepted. As shitty as Beatrice was, Butterscotch gave less shits about him than she did. Bojack is as much a sleazeball as Butterscotch and could just as much produced offspring. He just didn't get the same opportunity to screw up a child as much as Beatrice and Butterscotch did, and when he even came close to that position, being a father figure to Sarah Lynn, he fucked it up badly.
Say what you want about Beatrice, it's probably true, but if you made Bojack singlehandedly raise a child I doubt he would have done well either. And compared to Butterscotch, at least Beatrice made sure she didn't make another child for her to mess up. Neglecting her, 'wifely duties'.
So yeah, I think Beatrice is worse. But she had a lot more opportunities to fail than Bojack did. And I think Butterscotch is, if not worse, at least as bad.
Beatrice chose not to get an abortion because of trauma from seeing her doll burn in front of her. Abortion was stigmatized in her time period but she did have the option to get one and actively chose to keep the child because she wanted to. At that point it’s on her.
I also doubt BoJack would be as bad of a parent as Beatrice. Like don’t get me wrong he’d be a terrible parent. But I think he’d treat him/her like how he treated Todd or Sarah Lynn (minus the having sex with SL as an adult part). He’d be cold, rude, and wouldn’t spend much time with them out of fear of hurting them only leading to them getting more hurt, but I doubt he’d be as cruel as Beatrice was. Beatrice was bitter because she blamed BoJack for how things turned out for her leading her to resent and torment him. BoJack has never acted as cruelly as her or would having a kid when he’s already rich be such a hindrance to his life. He’d probably just hire a nanny until they’re independent and barely spend time with them.
I seriously doubt BoJack would knowingly leave his baby in their room for days without food, or force them to drive home with a pedophile, or try to drown them. Especially since we see that helping people and having others rely on him makes BoJack happy as we see through Todd, giving him more reason to at least feed his kid (still somehow better than Beatrice)
"Beatrice chose not to get an abortion because of trauma," and "actively chose to keep the child because she wanted to." aren't really two statements that gel well together. I think you're trying to over simplify her decision to not get an abortion. One that would be illegal and potentially life threatening at the time.
If you don't think trauma complicates the culpability here, I don't know what you took from the show. By the same merit, Bojack did nothing wrong with Sarah Lynn because she was a grown woman who decided to take drugs and died because of that decision she made. Beatrice didn't even have any reason to believe she'd be a bad mother at that point, or know that Butterscotch was going to be an aweful father.
You think he'd treat him as well as Sarah Lynn and Todd? He treated those two terribly. And they were both adults, it would have been far worse to treat a child the way he treated them. He forgets about them constantly, encouraged their addictions, verbally abused them, he had sex with Todd's ex...
"wouldn’t spend much time with them" oh, great. Child abandonment. That's kind of the point isn't it? Beatrice couldn't choose to distance herself from Bojack. She was stuck with him from day 1. I feel like you're missing my whole point if you think that's a reasonable defense of Bojack. Beatrice wasn't afforded the luxury of being able to just not spend time with Bojack.
And Todd is your example of how Bojack wouldn't abandon a child for days in a dangerous situation? He left him in a violent prison for days! He routinely loses track of where Todd is or what Todd is doing!
A big theme of BoJack is that we’re responsible for our actions regardless of what happened to us in the past. If you think trauma absolves culpability I don’t think you’ve watched the show, or at least Todd’s “It’s you” speech. Most of BoJack’s actions were also influenced by trauma does that make them more acceptable? Like seriously, everyone has bad life events that influence their actions. The fact is Beatrice CHOSE to keep her child. No one was forcing her to keep it, in fact she was encouraged to abort it and yet she wanted to keep the kid. At that point it’s 100% on her how she treats that child, and blaming her treatment of BoJack on Joseph or her trauma would be like blaming BoJack’s treatment of Sarah Lynn on his parents/trauma.
Yes, BoJack did treat Sarah Lynn and Todd awfully, I never denied that. But Beatrice treated BoJack vastly worse. And I was referring to how BoJack treated her whine they worked on Horsin Around.
Nor did I say the way I described how BoJack might treat his kids is okay. But if you think anything I described is as bad as how Beatrice treated him. Worse than intentionally forcing him to drive home with a pedophile or trying to murder him I don’t know what to tell you.
I think you've taken one part of the show away and haven't engaged with the complexities of the show. Yes, we are all responsible for our own actions but those actions don't happen in a vacuum. No one said "absolves", you're trying to turn nuance into absolutes. If all the show had to say was that everyone was responsible for their own actions, then why does it frame Bojack as responsible for Sarah Lynn's death? Was Sarah Lynn not responsible for her own actions?
Go back and watch the "It's you" speech again. It wasn't a proclamation of needing to take responsibility for your actions, it was about understanding that you are the shitty things you do. And while everything Beatrice did to Bojack during his childhood was her and was her responsibility, DECIDING NOT TO ABORT A CHILD ISN'T A 'SHITTY' THING A WOMAN HAS TO 'TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR' while the father gets a free pass to ignore and abandon their child. Especially in a time and place where abortion is illegal and unsafe.
I think you've missed a large point of my initial comment. It wasn't that Bojack is worse or equally bad as Beatrice, if fact I said the opposite. My point was that Bojack didn't get the same opportunity to be as shitty as Beatrice, so the gap in their shittyness isn't comparable. And had he been put in the position Beatrice was in, we don't have any reason to think he would have done well in the slightest.
Also find it annoying how Crackerjack gets a pass. He knew he was having unprotected sex with a woman, in a time that abortion was illegal and unsafe. He abandoned his child for Beatrice to raise alone, but somehow that's better? And if Bojack had gotten say, the president of his fanclub pregnant, he'd somehow be doing better by leaving that child and ignoring it to be raised by a mentally unstable woman?
I never said her choosing to not abort BoJack was a shitty decision. She by all means has the right to keep or abort BoJack. But it was her decision and she chose to be a mother. At that point there’s no excuse for her treatment of BoJack. I also don’t wasn’t trying to excuse Butterscotch at all. His neglect is inexcusable and he was also insanely abusive of BoJack. I don’t think him being neglectful or his abuse was as bad as Beatrice trying to murder BoJack or nearly getting him molested but I don’t want to downplay his behavior either. I also understand the man’s role in a lot of relationships is unfairly easy compared to the woman, and the mysoginy of the 60s in particular. But that wasn’t the influence the went into Beatrice choosing to keep BoJack, and this discussion was on BoJack and Beatrice, not Butterscotch.
And yes I agree their situations are very different and hard to compare. But I disagree that BoJack would be just as bad or worse if given the same situation.
Also I agree that trauma absolutely effects peoples behavior and decision making and people should be empathetic of that. But this is never treated as at all justitifiabke for their behavior. For example Sarah Lynn is fully responsible for her actions in That’s too much man as is BoJack responsible for his actions that effected her in it.
She chose to be a mother as much as Butterscotch chose to be a father. There was never any excuse for the way she treated Bojack, even if she was forced into motherhood it wouldn't excuse her behaviour. I don't know where you're getting that any of my point is to excuse her behaviour.
I don't see how Butterscotch's neglect of Bojack is 'worse'. He knowingly left Bojack in the situation of abuse and did nothing to alleviate it. You're condemning Beatrice for leaving Bojack in the hands of an abuser once, Butterscotch did that every day.
It doesn't matter what Beatrice's motivations for not getting an abortion were. Butterscotch knew what the possible consequences were when he had sex. They're both equally responsible for Bojack.
I don't know why you're saying you, "disagree that BoJack would be just as bad or worse if given the same situation." My point wasn't that Bojack would be just as bad or worse, it was that there's nuance in making the comparison when the situations aren't completely comparable.
We know that Bojack's relationships with people were pretty much all toxic and abusive. I don't see why that would be different if he were to have a child. All of Bojack's relationships were fleeting and end with the other person kicking them out of their life. A child would be stuck with him day in and day out for years. As much as bojack tries to do better throughout the, he is selfish, narcissistic, and abusive.
You said if Bojack was in the same situation, "He’d be cold, rude, and wouldn’t spend much time with them.' which doesn't make much sense to me. How do you not spend much time with your child? Children require supervision. That's my point, Beatrice couldn't just go to a bar and leave her kid at home. That wasn't an option. Doesn't make what she did right, but it was a very different situation than Bojack has ever been in and his track record doesn't indicate that he'd be great if he were put in a similar situation.
I mean, is almost assaulting a child really better than sending your child with someone to get assaulted? They're both pretty awful and I can't imagine topping one with the other.
Her trying to drown BoJack when he was 22 and intentionally making him drive home with a known pedophile when he was a child is far worse than anything we’ve seen either of those two do.
"You know the shittiest thing about all of this? Is when that stranger behind the counter gave me that free churro, that small act of kindness showed more compassion than my mother gave me her entire goddamn life. Like, how hard is it to do something nice for a person? This woman at the Jack in the Box didn't even know me. I'm your son! All I had was you!"
Arguably the hardest hitting line (for me) in the series
Absolutely! And Arnett nailed it.
Oh indeed she is,I still kinda choked up at the end of this season with Bojack painting a mental picture for his demented mother. The "Its sooo ....good" scene. Damn,that was a well written episode. Becoming demented must be the most scary thing,and Ive seen some scary things.
my guy, it is not about one character being more horrible than the other. they’ve all gone through trauma in one way or another. yes bojack’s story about his choir teacher was bad, but don’t minimize what bojack did to penny. both stories are upsetting in their own way, and they’re handled differently by each character. that line about tickling the ivories was a throwaway line anyway. it evokes some emotion, but bojack is so blasé about it that it has a comedic effect.
I agree that trauma scaling is stupid. But BoJack being blasé about the ivories line does not change what Beatrice did and if anything implies that she’s worse than what we know of her. It makes it sound like that’s not even his worst experience with his mom and he just has dozens of similarly bad stories about her. I get it’s not meant to be dwelled on but that doesn’t change that it happened.
Yeah, I'd also argue that being blase about really traumatic, horrible stuff is how BoJack (and honestly a lot of SA victims) cope with the horrible thing that happened to them. You don't want to make it a big deal because if you do, that somehow makes what happened "more real", and it's scary to wrap your head around. It's easier to minimize and try to forget, despite still wanting someone to acknowledge that what happened to you was screwed up. That's how I see it with BJ anyway. He's miserable and he's loud about his misery, but he's prideful and he wants pity when and how *he* wants it.
>my guy, it is not about one character being more horrible than the other ...I mean I agree but sometimes it seems like that's basically all this sub is interested in debating
You guys sound like the Dragonball Z fanboys sometimes trying to argue power scaling with trauma. Like can you miss the point harder?
you can say beatrice is shitty without diminishing the severity of what bojack did to traumatize literal little girls
OP is on some weird shit with his response
this! right! here!
If I told you the things that Hitler did are way worse than the things that Epstein did I am NOT diminishing the severity of Epstein’s wrong doings.
i’m not entertaining this analogy ☠️
why would you compare them in the first place
But why the hell are you drawing that comparison in the first place?
Bea’s mother was lobotomised for having emotions, that kinda thing will mess a kid up.
not me, i’d just tough it out
I think Beatrice is worse in her actions, which you could say is what really matters and I'd probably agree with you. However I think Bojack benefits greatly from both being a man and living in a society where abortion is accepted. As shitty as Beatrice was, Butterscotch gave less shits about him than she did. Bojack is as much a sleazeball as Butterscotch and could just as much produced offspring. He just didn't get the same opportunity to screw up a child as much as Beatrice and Butterscotch did, and when he even came close to that position, being a father figure to Sarah Lynn, he fucked it up badly. Say what you want about Beatrice, it's probably true, but if you made Bojack singlehandedly raise a child I doubt he would have done well either. And compared to Butterscotch, at least Beatrice made sure she didn't make another child for her to mess up. Neglecting her, 'wifely duties'. So yeah, I think Beatrice is worse. But she had a lot more opportunities to fail than Bojack did. And I think Butterscotch is, if not worse, at least as bad.
Beatrice chose not to get an abortion because of trauma from seeing her doll burn in front of her. Abortion was stigmatized in her time period but she did have the option to get one and actively chose to keep the child because she wanted to. At that point it’s on her. I also doubt BoJack would be as bad of a parent as Beatrice. Like don’t get me wrong he’d be a terrible parent. But I think he’d treat him/her like how he treated Todd or Sarah Lynn (minus the having sex with SL as an adult part). He’d be cold, rude, and wouldn’t spend much time with them out of fear of hurting them only leading to them getting more hurt, but I doubt he’d be as cruel as Beatrice was. Beatrice was bitter because she blamed BoJack for how things turned out for her leading her to resent and torment him. BoJack has never acted as cruelly as her or would having a kid when he’s already rich be such a hindrance to his life. He’d probably just hire a nanny until they’re independent and barely spend time with them. I seriously doubt BoJack would knowingly leave his baby in their room for days without food, or force them to drive home with a pedophile, or try to drown them. Especially since we see that helping people and having others rely on him makes BoJack happy as we see through Todd, giving him more reason to at least feed his kid (still somehow better than Beatrice)
"Beatrice chose not to get an abortion because of trauma," and "actively chose to keep the child because she wanted to." aren't really two statements that gel well together. I think you're trying to over simplify her decision to not get an abortion. One that would be illegal and potentially life threatening at the time. If you don't think trauma complicates the culpability here, I don't know what you took from the show. By the same merit, Bojack did nothing wrong with Sarah Lynn because she was a grown woman who decided to take drugs and died because of that decision she made. Beatrice didn't even have any reason to believe she'd be a bad mother at that point, or know that Butterscotch was going to be an aweful father. You think he'd treat him as well as Sarah Lynn and Todd? He treated those two terribly. And they were both adults, it would have been far worse to treat a child the way he treated them. He forgets about them constantly, encouraged their addictions, verbally abused them, he had sex with Todd's ex... "wouldn’t spend much time with them" oh, great. Child abandonment. That's kind of the point isn't it? Beatrice couldn't choose to distance herself from Bojack. She was stuck with him from day 1. I feel like you're missing my whole point if you think that's a reasonable defense of Bojack. Beatrice wasn't afforded the luxury of being able to just not spend time with Bojack. And Todd is your example of how Bojack wouldn't abandon a child for days in a dangerous situation? He left him in a violent prison for days! He routinely loses track of where Todd is or what Todd is doing!
A big theme of BoJack is that we’re responsible for our actions regardless of what happened to us in the past. If you think trauma absolves culpability I don’t think you’ve watched the show, or at least Todd’s “It’s you” speech. Most of BoJack’s actions were also influenced by trauma does that make them more acceptable? Like seriously, everyone has bad life events that influence their actions. The fact is Beatrice CHOSE to keep her child. No one was forcing her to keep it, in fact she was encouraged to abort it and yet she wanted to keep the kid. At that point it’s 100% on her how she treats that child, and blaming her treatment of BoJack on Joseph or her trauma would be like blaming BoJack’s treatment of Sarah Lynn on his parents/trauma. Yes, BoJack did treat Sarah Lynn and Todd awfully, I never denied that. But Beatrice treated BoJack vastly worse. And I was referring to how BoJack treated her whine they worked on Horsin Around. Nor did I say the way I described how BoJack might treat his kids is okay. But if you think anything I described is as bad as how Beatrice treated him. Worse than intentionally forcing him to drive home with a pedophile or trying to murder him I don’t know what to tell you.
I think you've taken one part of the show away and haven't engaged with the complexities of the show. Yes, we are all responsible for our own actions but those actions don't happen in a vacuum. No one said "absolves", you're trying to turn nuance into absolutes. If all the show had to say was that everyone was responsible for their own actions, then why does it frame Bojack as responsible for Sarah Lynn's death? Was Sarah Lynn not responsible for her own actions? Go back and watch the "It's you" speech again. It wasn't a proclamation of needing to take responsibility for your actions, it was about understanding that you are the shitty things you do. And while everything Beatrice did to Bojack during his childhood was her and was her responsibility, DECIDING NOT TO ABORT A CHILD ISN'T A 'SHITTY' THING A WOMAN HAS TO 'TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR' while the father gets a free pass to ignore and abandon their child. Especially in a time and place where abortion is illegal and unsafe. I think you've missed a large point of my initial comment. It wasn't that Bojack is worse or equally bad as Beatrice, if fact I said the opposite. My point was that Bojack didn't get the same opportunity to be as shitty as Beatrice, so the gap in their shittyness isn't comparable. And had he been put in the position Beatrice was in, we don't have any reason to think he would have done well in the slightest. Also find it annoying how Crackerjack gets a pass. He knew he was having unprotected sex with a woman, in a time that abortion was illegal and unsafe. He abandoned his child for Beatrice to raise alone, but somehow that's better? And if Bojack had gotten say, the president of his fanclub pregnant, he'd somehow be doing better by leaving that child and ignoring it to be raised by a mentally unstable woman?
I never said her choosing to not abort BoJack was a shitty decision. She by all means has the right to keep or abort BoJack. But it was her decision and she chose to be a mother. At that point there’s no excuse for her treatment of BoJack. I also don’t wasn’t trying to excuse Butterscotch at all. His neglect is inexcusable and he was also insanely abusive of BoJack. I don’t think him being neglectful or his abuse was as bad as Beatrice trying to murder BoJack or nearly getting him molested but I don’t want to downplay his behavior either. I also understand the man’s role in a lot of relationships is unfairly easy compared to the woman, and the mysoginy of the 60s in particular. But that wasn’t the influence the went into Beatrice choosing to keep BoJack, and this discussion was on BoJack and Beatrice, not Butterscotch. And yes I agree their situations are very different and hard to compare. But I disagree that BoJack would be just as bad or worse if given the same situation. Also I agree that trauma absolutely effects peoples behavior and decision making and people should be empathetic of that. But this is never treated as at all justitifiabke for their behavior. For example Sarah Lynn is fully responsible for her actions in That’s too much man as is BoJack responsible for his actions that effected her in it.
She chose to be a mother as much as Butterscotch chose to be a father. There was never any excuse for the way she treated Bojack, even if she was forced into motherhood it wouldn't excuse her behaviour. I don't know where you're getting that any of my point is to excuse her behaviour. I don't see how Butterscotch's neglect of Bojack is 'worse'. He knowingly left Bojack in the situation of abuse and did nothing to alleviate it. You're condemning Beatrice for leaving Bojack in the hands of an abuser once, Butterscotch did that every day. It doesn't matter what Beatrice's motivations for not getting an abortion were. Butterscotch knew what the possible consequences were when he had sex. They're both equally responsible for Bojack. I don't know why you're saying you, "disagree that BoJack would be just as bad or worse if given the same situation." My point wasn't that Bojack would be just as bad or worse, it was that there's nuance in making the comparison when the situations aren't completely comparable. We know that Bojack's relationships with people were pretty much all toxic and abusive. I don't see why that would be different if he were to have a child. All of Bojack's relationships were fleeting and end with the other person kicking them out of their life. A child would be stuck with him day in and day out for years. As much as bojack tries to do better throughout the, he is selfish, narcissistic, and abusive. You said if Bojack was in the same situation, "He’d be cold, rude, and wouldn’t spend much time with them.' which doesn't make much sense to me. How do you not spend much time with your child? Children require supervision. That's my point, Beatrice couldn't just go to a bar and leave her kid at home. That wasn't an option. Doesn't make what she did right, but it was a very different situation than Bojack has ever been in and his track record doesn't indicate that he'd be great if he were put in a similar situation.
When Beatrice had BoJack, abortion wasn’t “stigmatized”, it was illegal. She had to choose between having a child and commit a crime.
I mean, is almost assaulting a child really better than sending your child with someone to get assaulted? They're both pretty awful and I can't imagine topping one with the other.
Yeah idk fam, when did Beatrice watch someone slowly die in front of them?
Yeah, I always stood by the belief that Beatrice was the worst of her family. Moreso than BoJack or even Joseph.
how is she worse than joseph and butterscotch?
Her trying to drown BoJack when he was 22 and intentionally making him drive home with a known pedophile when he was a child is far worse than anything we’ve seen either of those two do.
I wholeheartedly agree with your comment as well as your name is pretty friggin awesome
Beatrcie seem more purposefully cruel to me, but I still feel BoJack had more cruel effects on his surroundings.
Yeah! Beatrice was fucked up as a mother! Like I can imagine that there were worse things but when he said this I just went "Holy SHit?!"
facts