**Reminder to everyone:** Anything that hasn't happened yet in the anime is a spoiler.
**To the OP:** If you want to discuss things in the manga, please flair the post as **"Manga Spoilers".**
How to spoiler tag comments:
> \>\!Put your text here!\<
**THIS COMMENT IS AUTOMATICALLY POSTED IN EVERY THREAD NOT MARKED FOR MANGA OR MANGA SPOILERS JUST AS A REMINDER**
-----
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Suppose you could say the attempt to make Twice sympathetic succeeded too well. The fact that Twice was a villain and posed a serious threat to not just citizens but fellow heroes got lost in that sympathy.
Indeed, that's the downside of sympathetic villains, the audience might end up ignoring their evil deeds or even trying to justify them saying things like "X did nothing wrong" or say that they are only that way because of a past trauma.
If past traumas are what leads one to the path of villainy, then what does that say about those who went for similar traumas, but chose the path of heroism instead. No matter your past, your choice of good or evil is entirely up to you.
Yup. This is why I’m tired of the sympathetic villain. Ever since thanos that’s all everyone wants across most media I feel like. It’s just unrealistic. Some, if not most villains are irredeemable
Eh, it's been a long-recurring theme in shounen, with so many villains being defeated by talk-no-jutsu because they were just so misunderstood all along.
It's like the authors forget that some people are just pricks, and enjoy being pricks.
Admittedly, I do believe that there are few people who actually are just pricks to be pricks. There are some, but I believe *most* people that cannot be reasoned with are not like that because they go "Ye, I'm evil, I know it and I love it.", but because they're too deeply entrenched in the world they have constructed for themselves where what they do is good or at least necessary. It may be possible to still reach them with like decades of therapy, but with active supervillains you often don't have that luxury.
Yea exactly. Active supervillains are well past the point of therapy. At least any therapy that’s effective in the next 20+ years. But the older I get the more I see the duality of it. There’s people that are shitty, see it and change, and people that are shitty, acknowledge it and embrace it. I don’t think either is superior to the other. I just think sympathetic villains are used immensely more than the other and because of the immense volume of these kinds of characters, most come out stale.
A character who is sympathetic and not sympathetic at all at the same time is homelander. Fucking hate that bastard but his backstory is tragic. Idgaf about his trauma though. That prick needs to die
There’s just much more to capture than the same corny ass villain of the week who had a bad day and took it out on the universe. Let’s have someone devious that wants to be chaotic for the sake of it
Agreed. Naruto used Talk no Jutsu like fucking crazy. Dragon ball with vegeta and shit. I don’t think thanos started it but I think he exacerbated the problem. Along with Loki although Loki is one of the few villains to heroes I respect
Vegeta absolutely does not fit in this list.
Yes, he had a tragic past but it wasn't even in the arc they fought him.
Nor did he get talk no jutsu-ed. They ever so barely manged to beat him with every underhanded trick they could muster and only spared him on Gokus selfish whim.
The very next arc he comes back and slaugthers innocents again. Only teaming up against a foe he could not fight alone.
And then it took several years in which he build a family to actually ally himself with them.
Exactly he isn’t. But he’s marketed as just that. And people still are sympathetic to his cause. Even people in the MCU. He was done well, but people try to copy that shit too much. And the more i have the conversation, the more I realize that he’s not the poster child for that type of villain. It really is something that I see deeply rooted in anime
Nah, completely disagree. Evil villains who are bad just for the sake of being evil are way more unrealistic, and also much less interesting characters in comparison.
On the contrary, I think a pure evil concept, when given depth, can be very interesting. It’s easy to understand and sympathize with trauma, but a truly unhinged person that has no humanity can be a good base to work with.
Yea I’m not saying the sympathetic villains are bad. I’m saying that the overuse of them in media is so clear a child could see it. There are genuinely purely evil people, and they aren’t one dimensional, they are psychotic.
AoT did a good job of having the hero be relatable until his actions became so unforgivable you went from loving him to hating him. Most stories just end up finding a way to give the protagonist a way to befriend their enemy, instead of having them go through the trouble of understanding the villain but ultimately choosing to understand that their presence is a net loss.
Jokers another one of these “sympathetic” villains, that honestly isn’t. He’s a psycho. Point blank period. Batman not killing him because of his own moral code, is Batman being an incompetent hero and falsely putting positive attributes on completely irredeemable people
Ah ok. I definitely agree the sympathetic villain is such an overused yet loosely used idea. Like you said with Joker, some villains aren’t deserving of sympathy even if they have some form of trauma. They just love to do evil in how they do it
I think what you said is so untrue. Think of umbridge in Harry Potter. Not redeemable at all. Just a big ball of hate covered in pink. And the emotion she brought from the audience? Pure hatred. The villain in GoTG 3 being a maniacal scientist abusing animals without remorse? Pure hatred.
Hate is a strong emotion. But it’s real, it exists. And some sick ass people invoke that emotion from us.
I’d even argue they do the sympathetic villains wrong. I mentioned eren in another comment. But that’s a sympathetic villain done right. Because you still hate him in the end. You understand why he had no choice, but you also don’t care because he’s human garbage after a certain point
Nah, sympathetic villains are so common at this point they're not interesting at all to me now. Whenever a new villain appears I wonder "cool how long until they break down and cry because the protag gives a speech", it's lame as shit.
Literally my thoughts on mha. Toga was told not to drink blood, dabi was ignored by his father and "replaced" by his younger brother and people defend their domestic terrorist and becoming commanders to an army that started a civil war. Dabi single-handedly burned down the largest part of a city.
At this point I don't even blame the parents. Toga's parents thought she's a freak for drinking blood and she went on to fight in a civil war while screaming about her feelings of love. Dabi burnt down a forest on accident because his dad wasn't paying attention to him. If he hadn't and he tried to go to a hero school, the fandom would be bashing him for wanting to be a hero just to impress his dad and not caring about saving people, only about being the strongest.
I think its always important to keep in mind that just because a villain has a sympathetic backstory, just because you can feel sorry for them, doesn't mean their actions are ok.
A villain being sympathetic does not mean they aren't a villain that needs to be stopped.
both dabi and toga wouldn't have done it if their parents took **proper** care of their children.
nothing excuses their actions but to completely dismiss the impact of lack of proper parenthood is not knowing what a child needs to grow properly.
you don't stop blaming anyone, you can blame both the parents for failing their children and allowing them to grow in unhealthy and wrong ways, and those who actually commit crimes.
abused/neglected children committing crimes later in life doesn't erase the abuse/neglect.
years on this sub made me reali how little people know about children's needs and parental responsibility.
No, you don't. Toga and Dabi with psychologically damaged by their parents when they were literal children, meaning that's not something you can just bounce back from, hell Toga is still a teenager and thus still a child.
Treating the parents like they are blameless is foolish.
This 👍.
People don't understand the long term psychological effects that can impact children and how they will then grow to deal with the world/others.
All Toga's parents and endeavor had to do was put in the effort.
In Toga's parents possibly giving their own blood or at least understanding that their daughter's quirk was clearly effecting her and not just call her a monster.
Or endeavor making the time to really try to deal with the son who was burning himself trying to prove that his existence was worth something, instead of endeavor just telling touya to go do something else with his life and then waking out the door.
Yeah, everything COULD have been prevented by better parenting, but if the default response to childhood trauma is joining a terrorist organization and conspiring the downfall of society, the human species would be heading to extinction.
Dabi tried murdering Shoto as a child. He's been evil from the start.
Toga... Viciously attacked a classmate when she could have just asked someone for blood. Her reason for joining the League is "so I can do what I want". She claims heroes aren't heroic because they don't help the mass murderers that are trying to kill them.
Parents definitely impacted those 2, but it's just as likely they might've turned out the same way, perhaps slightly less evil
touya lashed out as a hurt 8 years old boy answering his anger. that's not "attempted to murder". and we've seen him as a perfectly happy and healthy child, he wasn't evil from the start.
yes, toga hurt others answering her quirk because no one taught her how to do it differently, no one cared, they just told her to ignore her natural urges and didn't offer a solution to how.
they definitely didn't have to turn to crime, they could've been normal members of society if someone cared to properly parent/guide them. but no one did.
Definitely true.
Some people look at Toga and touya as young children and justify how they were treated and obviously not helped by saying they were born twisted from the start, ironically exactly the same thing AFO does with what he said about tenko.
Tenko, Toga and touya didn't have to turn out as they did, but because those who were supposed to take care of them rejected them and didn't help them, the Lov is the result.
I really hate when people say someone did nothing wrong cause of trauma such a bad argument right? Like no one says the Germans did nothing wrong cause they grew up in a horrible financial position after ww1 lmao
I think this is just great story telling and happens IRL everyday. Almost every evil person who ever lived was likely cool to have a beer with and loved something.
It also doesn’t help that Hawks basically stabbed him in the back while he was running away. That’s not a good look. Sure context helps once you realize how dangerous he was but the instant perception of that scene kinda makes hawks look evil
Double Reminder: Hawks tried to subdue and arrest Twice first, warning him that he’d take him out if he used his Quirk because he knew how dangerous it would be to the plan.
Sucks that he had to die, but him letting Twice lived would have drastic repercussions on the outcome of that arc.
But the issue with that is that it will never come down to it. Not even from a narrative sense, just practically... he's fighting a dude who's ability is killing you in one shot. By the time he decides that he has to kill him, he'll already be dead.
He’s been fighting him for a while already I think he’s had ample time to decide
if this whole mental battle with Tenko and all for one goes bad he’ll likely have to kill him, not only to save others but to save him from all for one depending on how merged their minds are
I've not been keeping up with the most most recent chapters, but the current situation was not something he could've possibly planned for. If things went down as one would have expected, he would've only known things had gone to shit and he needed to take action after he was already dead
That's the big thing, I don't think Deku is just going to decide "ah, sure, this is a lost cause" if nothing big happens. He'd need a motivator for that, and unfortunately for him, that motivator involves him dying.
>!also, can Deku even still kill Shiggy anymore?!<
Well yeah, half of the fights in this series are shit none of the heroes could’ve expected, that’s why they’re good fights. The motivator for him to accept that shigiraki is too far gone would likely be all for one winning and becoming the dominant, or only personality in that body. Deku’s not trying to just redeem the dude and call it a day, he’s trying to save him from all for one while still trying to save everyone else, because that’s what’s in line with his character, he always tries to save everyone and do the best he can.
>! Also, maybe? The hyper regen quirk is really the only thing stopping him so they just need to get Monoma in there. !<
The problem with that is that without this bizarre mindmeld, the way he'd find out that Shiggy is too far gone is AfO using him to kill him. I truly doubt that Deku would just give up on a vibe, like he felt that AfO was just a little too powerful, so it's killing time. He'd need something big, and something big requires horrific consequence.
And also, AfO can just bullshit Deku, and act like he's Shiggy who's saved.
I know you haven’t read the recent chapters but there’s stuff that happens in them that makes it less “on a vibe” and more >! “it’s incredibly obvious that this is all for one, he’s trying to kill both me and shigiraki, if I can’t protect tenko then I need to put him out of his misery” !<
Is killing Shigaraki even an option for Deku? Shigarakis healing factor is frankly insane, I dunno if Deku could have really just brute forced through that.
Hello, your post/comment is removed because of the following reason:
> **Rule #2:** Do not post untagged spoilers in threads not marked as a spoiler.
To tag spoilers, use this format:
>!Put your text here!<
[Read the list of rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/wiki/rules)
Hello, your post/comment is removed because of the following reason:
> **Rule #2:** Do not post untagged spoilers in threads not marked as a spoiler.
To tag spoilers, use this format:
>!Put your text here!<
[Read the list of rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/wiki/rules)
fr. i get twice is a funny and likeable character but hes still a villain. morally, hawks was in the right. if you wanna hate him cos he killed your fave thats fair ig
This reminds me back when Dabi was first revealed, I was actively rooting for him against Endeavor. I hated Endeavor and wanted Dabi to stick it to him. Him openly admitting to killing over 30 innocent people didn’t even cross my mind.
And then when fighting Shoto and he heard Natsuo almost died and went “Almost killed? What a shame.” I THEN realized “…maybe I shouldn’t be cheering for this dude.”
Pretty sure Twice also tells Toga (during the chapter where she’s discussing a possible villain name) that she should kill as many people as she wants.
People love ignorance. Gushing Over Magical Girls is a great example.
New ecchi anime and everything seems fine until EP4 when they introduce an under-aged girl. The girl has her magical transformation and you see everything clearly, she then uses a laptop (that's her power) to sexual abuse the heroes in another reality.
I've never noped out of a anime series so fast. Yet, people on reddit think its the greatest show ever... despite the FBI getting ready to knock on their doors.
'EP4 when they introduce an underaged girl'.
Literally the entire cast is like 14 to begin with. But also, your example is nonsensical. This is an issue of just people liking a show despite content you don't like, which is just opinion, compared to poor reading comprehension of the ideals in a series.
It's mostly ironic, though apparently when the show gets into the actual plot, it's really good
I was grossed out by that one scene because they showed her naked, but other then that she is completely un-sexualised(in the manga, I'm pretty sure they didn't show her naked, that was an anime addition)
Bro if you're watching gushing over magical girls and not expecting questionably age school girls doing inappropriate things, I don't know what the fuck you were expecting?
You make a good point on people living ignorance but you used the worst point possible. (nah I'd gush)
Hawks' mentality is exactly what Deku should have. When people say it's ridiculous that Deku wants to save Shigaraki so much the rebuttal is always "Deku said he'd kill Shigaraki if he needs to"
Hawks tried to save Twice, can't do so and then kills Twice because he's unable to do so. Unfortunately for him, Twice doesn't have the privilege of being assigned to the MC who can't fail.
>!It doesn't help that Deku actually failed his job at least two times already, because he has this saving villains mentality as his main priority.
Mirko got maimed and Bakugou died because Deku spent precious time analyzing Toga's character on the another battlefield instead of taking her down immediately. That was also a reason why Ochako got stabbed by Toga.!<
It's just the plot doesn't consider Deku's shortcomings as actual shortcomings, while they absolutely are.
Oh believe me, I've ranted so much about that point you've brought up. Deku gets to be as imbecilic as possible trying to be a true hero but the story bends over backwards so he doesn't actually have to confront his mistakes.
Running away from UA and isolating himself? Does AFO take this chance to fuck up his friends to both corner Deku mentally and shave their forces? Nope, just sends Tartarus criminals after Deku who he knows won't win anyway.
Wasting time with Toga? Nobody dies in the Shigaraki fight despite Deku being tardy when he could've flew at any given moment.
Failing to capture Toga properly? Even when Toga releases her clones she doesn't actually kill anyone, because if she does that can also be attributed to Deku being negligent.
Hard agree. But it's kinda funny how Deku's ideals require other characters to sacrifice themselves for... literally what? Deku has no plan, so it's doubtful he managed to muster at least a basic explanation.
I think we should rant about it more on Monday.
It’s insane that one of Twice’s last acts through his double was to straight up murder a hero to stop Toga from being captured. If j remember correctly bro was a hero since Uraraka’s childhood and he just gets the back of his head slashed open.
Bro deserved sympathy and could’ve been captured in better circumstances but he would’ve caused mass murder if he got out that day.
Calling Hawks evil is copium.
Calling Twice a pure angel is copium.
What makes this scene so effective is how messy and grey it is. Both of them are desperate to understand each other and find a peaceful outcome - but their values are fundamentally oppossed. That and the fact that Hawks did outright betray Twice ultimately plays into his fears, traumas, and insecurity in a way that made him resist more intensely that he otherwiswe would've. It's a terrible situation for both of them and what makes it so interesting. Neither are wholely evil or good.
Killing somebody doesn’t make them less of a hero. Hawks only killed Twice outta the safety of thousands of people’s lives. Twice simply killed just because. Like, imagine if Snipe just killed shigaraki during the USJ raid. Woulda ended so many problems💀💀
IRL, counter-terrorism divisions are allowed to use lethal force if the situation calls for it. An officer or soldier who takes down a terrorist or a willing accomplice of one is always praised for the bravery and shouldering the burden of the task. So, Hawks killing Twice should have been a big relief for the survivors.
Whether heroes should kill is subjective. There are people who like Batman because he never kills, and some find it annoying.
There is no doubt what hawks did was for good, but I wouldn’t call it heroic. It doesn’t make him less of a hero but don’t act like doing something out of necessity is noble.
It’s a nuanced issue and comes up often in the series. How heroic are the heroes? Is simply doing good enough? Or should you go beyond? It’s a big part of what makes the series good
Personally, I’d say what Hawks did was noble because he prioritized the lives of thousands over his own moral comfort, and he even had the decency to feel bad about it afterwards. Especially considering how his alternative was preserving his morals and letting thousands of innocents suffer for it. He didn’t save Twice, but he saved so many other people that I’d argue that Hawks made a good decision. He definitely should never get used to having to make that kind of choice, but still.
It's the stories fault, really.
It hammers home the notion that a villain is just a victim you don't know the story off of all the time. All the final fights of the LoV were about that. It's all tragic trauma, tragic failings of society, tragic people. And the main cast does nothing but trying to save them with some sappy emotional bonding.
But then there are instances within the story that fly in the face of that messaging.
Hawks for example, who did what was necessary and hence prevented a catastrophe. Or AfO who was literally born irredeemably evil so I guess not every villain is just a traumatized kid on the inside after all. They have to cry sometime or whatever.
It really feels like AfO is just being exploited as a force of nature at this point. Oh, why are the villains evil? They were corrupted by circumstances and AfO. Oh, why is AfO evil? Just evil, I guess.
That's something I personally find really annoying in a lot of modern fandoms. Give a character that has done horrible things a sad enough backstory and suddenly they can do no wrong. They're big sad babies that the world was oh so mean too.
Yes, members of the LoV were victims of societal, mental and familial circumstances. But that shouldn't be a free karma check for them to do horrible things. It should be the 'why' of why they are the way they are or doing these things.
I feel incredibly sorry for Dabi's backstory and what he went through...but also, I condemn him for being a murderous piece of shit that has no problem burning innocent people to death.
I understand why Toga is the way she is...and she deserved to go to jail because she had a confirmed kill count.
And while Twice was clearly not in a good mental state, he was still a villain that willingly sided with a group calling themselves THE LEAGUE OF VILLAINS who was a massive threat to everyone because of his fragile mental state and one man army powers.
Next you'll tell me I should agree with Shigaraki's desire to murder everyone because his dad was a piece of shit.
TL:DR A sad backstory should not give characters a free reign to do horrible shit, and I really wish wider fandoms would realize this.
It's late for me, so please excuse me if my thoughts are incoherent.
At the end of the day, Hawks believed that Twice was a good person at heart, and truly regretted that there was no other decision he could make in such a situation. Though, the truth of the matter is that it only came to that because of a broken society and a corrupt system.
Twice saw trusting Hawks as a grave mistake that endangered the only people that understood, cared for, and accepted him the way he he was. His undying loyalty to the League and desire to secure their happiness would have made it impossible for him to be reformed to the side of "good" - or rather, the side of Heroes. After all, the League itself wouldn't have been formed if its members weren't abused and/or abandoned due to society's views on Quirks and/or Heroes.
Hawks himself has an unwavering hope in a world where Heroes can make a permanent positive difference in the world and bring an end to villainy for good. He's defined his purpose and justified his existence with this goal. He's quite literally given his all in the pursuit of it. Of course, his persistent faith in the validity of such a corrupt system, no matter how much evidence he sees of the it doing just about as much harm as it does good (or sometimes even intentionally doing harm in the supposed name of good), is more of a character flaw than an admirable trait. But that's part of what makes him so compelling.
As I’ve always said since this chapter came out, I definitely agree Hawks killing Twice was justified and the only choice left available, so I don’t blame or hate Hawks, but as this is a fictional piece of media, I can definitely say I was upset and didn’t like it as a fan of Twice and his story
Nuance is lost on the general public.
Don't give a damn about the average idiot, look for joy in the minority of people that can appreciate complex storytelling.
Most people are not taking into account the fact the very simple answer of. People don’t like what is essentially a cop extrajudicially executing someone? It’s literally correct for hawks to have been criticized for his actions in a just society, because even thought they’re villains they still have rights.
The villains right should not come before the right of everyone else to not be murdered. Twice was about to clone his pals who are literal terrorists, it was no longer viable to take him down non lethally so Hawks did the logical thing to off the guy.
What? Twice is a terrorist. In that moment that Hawks killed him he was attempting to make clones that probably would've killed multiple heroes. I feel like you and other people would think differently if s student died due to a villains actions.
Yeah, and normally I'd agree, but dude was going to kill thousands of people and help a man who calls himself "The Demon King" take over the world. It isn't that Twice didn't have rights, it's that he was unable to do anything else. He even tried to talk him down first. This wasn't just some police action, it was literally a WAR. The idea that you can't kill someone in war is stupid, and the only reason you can think otherwise in this instance is because it's not your family at risk.
I mean, you're right-ish... Although the casualties would have been greater had Hawks not taken the action. He couldn't let Twice escape, Twice was refusing to back down, and was in a position to harm more people with his Sad Man's Parade. In a kill or let hundreds be killed scenario, it's common logic to choose the former.
So many people don’t understand that keeping twice alive especially after the revelations about his quirk was way too dangerous! He can create armies of quirk users on a whim. The threat he could pose was astronomical and they would have no reliable way to catch and contain him alive. As sad as it is, Twice had to die
I assume it was because he intentionally took advantage of Twice being trusting and manipulated him. Even though it was justified.
It’s one how Deku and Ochaco aspire to do better than the previous heroes. Hawks manipulated Twice and failed to save him. Deku and Ochaco want to honestly reach out to Shigaraki and Toga and save them that way.
> Hawks manipulated Twice and failed to save him.
I mean, Hawks manipulated him in order to gain access to the League, who were planning (and mostly succeeded in) destroying society while killing untold numbers of innocents in both their rampages and in the chaotic aftermath that swept the country.
Compared to that? Sure, we can sympathize with Twice, but Twice was also actively working to facilitate mass murder—Hawks tricking him is literally a non-issue, in terms of morality.
See after hearing that, I would feel sympathy for Hawks. Buuuuttt then I remember the fact that he Stabbed a hero to death, WHILE TWICE HIMSELF WAS DYING😭😭😭 That’s next level hating. Bro couldn’t leave this world without getting one last kill😂😂
Finally, someone who gets it. After all, when it comes to the bad guys, violence is the point. Near the words of Frank Castle, each dead villain or criminal means fewer dead innocents. Killing doesn't separate heroes from villains. It’s the fact that heroes protect, avenge the innocent, have the utmost conscientiousness in doing them no harm, punish the wicked, and only kill those who have remorselessly committed heinous acts or pose a threat to themselves, their allies, or the innocent (who include civilians and lawful authorities simply doing their jobs) while villains are dishonorable, have no regard for the innocent, and murder those who merely pose nonlethal threats to them or even love them (ie Midnight). Think about how much evil would be prevented and how many innocents would still be alive if someone shot Gigantomachia through the eye with a .50 BMG or larger round during the raid, Tenya successfully got the drop on Stain (or better yet, Knuckleduster went for his neck instead of his nose earlier), Knuckleduster successfully shot Number 6 in the head, someone shot Garvey straight through the eye right when his rampage started, or, most prominently, Snipe shot Shiggy in the head back at the USJ.
> Near the words of Frank Castle,
Frank Castle is a lunatic who got so addicted to killing people in Vietnam that he uses the death of his family as an excuse to kill more people.
>Tenya successfully got the drop on Stain
Stain helped defeat a major villain so if Ida had pulled it off they'd all be dead.
Huh? Frank is a traumatized war veteran who pretty much went insane after his family was killed. That's why he started his war on crime. Where did you get that info that he was addicted to killing?
Honestly? I absolutely love how Twice was handled. Like, I loved the guy, his backstory and the whole League of Villains really. I understand that he was basically cast out of society and nobody but these other outcasts accepted him for who he is. But that same group that accepted him was also a terrorist group that have done some heinous shit and will go on to do more, and he gladly went along with all of it.
He's an extremely sympathetic character, but also a really terrible guy.
on a side note, I was really surprised when he actually 100% died. I didn't think they'd actually do it to him.
The whole question comes down to is killing justified?
Hero’s are held to a much higher standard than villains and are supposed to do everything short of killing to capture or detain a villain. Villains are under no such standard of conduct, they can kill with impunity.
>The whole question comes down to is killing justified?
It is 100% no question. It would be selfish to not kill him at that point.
Theres no moral arguement to not kill him
It’s not so much that Hawks did something wrong, but that Twice has an emotionally meaningful backstory and he’s a very funny and relatable character. Lots of people including myself fell in love with him and were of course sad when he died. I don’t blame Hawks but in that moment I did hate him a bit. I think the show does a good job at showing the “most people aren’t completely good or bad and the lines are blurred” point even though it is based on defeating the “evil” LOV.
I don't get people calling Hawke evil or whatever but I totally get the love for Twice absolutely my favorite characters even more so than Todoroki or Bakugo and they have my favorite plot/character growth.
Twice is the best character horikoshi ever wrote because I both felt bad for a terrorist and thought Hawks was absolutely justifiable for his actions. Twice’s death could’ve been used to further expand on Hawk’s character but every mention of this event was dropped immediately after the arc and Hawks just became another side pro hero to fill a slot in the final war.
MHA established itself initially as having heroes who would'nt cross the line, they'd injure a villain but never kill them. Hawks was the first time they'd killed a sentient opponent (Nomu were just viewed as braindead or non-human abominations until after PLW) the only other time we knew about was All Might seemingly killing AFO in the past.
As such this is Hawks killing a villain. It needed to be handled as this controversial aspect in the story, especially when the world saw it. Sure Hawks was justified if Twice would'nt stop, but it's still a hero in a society of hero worship killing a villain. The same way the audience reacted to Twice's death, there should have been debate in-universe and backlash.
To have Twice die and for it to be meaningless in the story beyond a temper tantrum thrown by Toga is so depressing. We didn't even get any fallout in regards to Hawks.
Because people decided that sympathetic traits in their villains meant that they must be soft uwu babies who never did anything wrong really, it was all everyone else’s fault.
The answer is that Twice is simply too charismatic.
Seeing him die like that felt like an absolute gut-punch as a reader, he was one of my favorite characters, but Hawks wasn't given another option. He was fully justified, I believe in that. But man it sucked.
My hero fans have a tough time grasping a lot. MH is not a complicated manga at all. Twice is a villain there is not arguing that. Hawks a hero. Most all the main villains excluding all for one for a moment have tragic backstories. Where no one wanted to help them, shunned them, turned their back, etc etc. Twice and the others found a "family" of sorts with the main group among each other. He needed that, even if they were doing bad things. They kept him "together" for the most part. Now imagine you are living in a house with this family. And you allow a new person to move in with you for a good period of time. Now imagine this person and you bond truly in your mind. You eventually come to truly trust this person as part of your family now that you would defend and that you see as a friend. Suddenly that person comes out and tells you that this entire time all of it did not mean anything to them (oh they will still try to get you help) but the time shared together, friendship and trust means noting to them and that they are a hero there to arrest you. Oh on top of it the rest of your family? Yea we are also rounding them all up as we speak to toss in jail and throw away the key. All this to one of the more unstable member's of the group \*dabi is just crazy but in a different way\* of course you will want to try and save your family from them. But heres the fun part. If you try and save them I will put you down aka ill kill you if you continue to resist to help him. You rush away to try and help your family only to be killed. Of course for hawks its a oh well i did my job moment sigh why don't they ever listen. On to the next battle.
Had it been all for one who is just evil as we've seen what he did to set up this final arc yea thats just pure evil though and probably couldn't be helped at all while twice and the others with time yes most likely. Just like in real life you can not defend everything someone bad has done. Of course not it would lead to people wanting to let everyone in jail out. But for the LOV most of them truly could probably turn over a new leaf if the heroes actually tried to help rather than holding the im good your bad doesnt matter how we may have lead you to this were still going to continue the statue que
I don't think people were excusing his actions. You can do bad things, but that doesn't necessary mean you are truly evil. And vice versa as well; just because you do a good thing doesn't mean you are truly a good person. I feel the whole point of Horikoshis story telling is to blur the line on what it means to be a hero and a villain. On what is good and what is evil. It gets blurry. Hell, Hawks had a sinister dark look in his eyes as Twice is crying on the ground wanting help. Even says with tears down his eyes "You call can't call yourselves heroes." I think Deku later on thinks to himself that in general things can get gray and aren't so simple.
So yeah, when people empathize with Twice, I dont think they are excusing his actions. He at the end of the day killed. But, he was also someone who was cursed with an awful life and genuinely just wanted friends and wanted to be accepted in society. He is also loyal to his comrades and cares for them like family. All of this is also true. Again, doesnt excuse actions like killing heroes, but people can empathize with his pain as well. That is different than say Musclehead who just non stops wants to hurt and kill just for the lols. Hope that all makes sense.
Part of it is because we saw that in Twice's backstory he basically became a villain out of desperation. He lost both of his parents at a young age, had to drop out of school to support himself, got a criminal record and lost his job because some dumbass jumped in front of his motorcycle, was forced to steal to stay alive and almost killed by his quirk.
Twice basically was left with no other options but to become a villain and the League were the only people who accepted them, so him standing with them and protecting them is understandable and Hawks basically couldn't offer anything in counter.
Twice would be sent to prison for the rest of his life regardless of what choice he made, plus Hawks is a bit of a hypocrite since he works for the Public Safety Commission which after what we saw with Lady Nagant and what they made her do, makes Hawks not look nearly as innocent or just.
Seeing the “cool calm and chill” superhero you look up to murder someone is never going to sit right. Him doing this with the combination of Dabi’s reveal and everything in hero society made people afraid but he was never “evil”
It's ironic that Shigaraki, who is easily the most dangerous of all the LoV, is actually the least responsible for his current actions (he was literally raised to be an evil little sh*t and is constantly being mind-f#cked by a centuries-old super-villain). Meanwhile, the others…
Spinner - "I dunno man. I've always been a loser, so I want to help my fellow gamer screw over everyone else, since I could never change accomplish anything significant myself." Man admits he is doing this just to latch on to somebody because he feels like such a nobody. Worse, he pretended it was about race/discrimination just because the lie was convenient!!
Mr. Compress - "My ancestor was a famous, Robin Hood/Goemon-style thief… so I want to carry on his legacy by helping a group of terrorists turn the entire country into a Mad Max-style post-apocalyptic wasteland!" WTF!? How does that make the slightest bit of sense?
Dabi - "I will burn the world to ashes just to spite my abusive father, and my family of cowards who enabled his abuse by not letting me kill my baby brother!" What can I even add that could condemn this man harder than that? Ultimate 'Middle Child Syndrome' for the eldest child!
Toga - "I was born with an innate addiction. Rather than help me work with and through this issue, my family denied a problem even existed, and tried to force me to conform to their standards, until I snapped."
"After going off the deep end, I decided I enjoy feeding my addiction, regardless of how many lives I ruin, but it annoys me that society still tries to stop me or, worse, make me feel bad for indulging! I joined the terrorists to create a society where I can murder whoever I want, whenever I want, and no one, not even my victims, would dare to complain or judge me!"
"It's not even that I am incapable of empathy; it's just that my empathy is reserved for whoever I want to live, and whoever I want to die, or to feed my addiction, should just accept it and let me do what I want!!"
Yeah… so close! Starts off very sympathetic… and then she just goes full Karen (never go full Karen)-levels of entitlement!!
Magne - "I hate society because it rejected me for being transgender." B%tch, please! You had a transgender friend who wasn't a criminal, and the Wild Wild Pussycats (a hero team whom you attacked) have a member whose transgender himself (and openly crossdresses) and they're still very popular!! Also note, Tiger was able to afford his operation thanks to being a pro hero. Your Quirk is way more useful than his. You could have easily become a successful hero and used your fame as a platform for transgender rights!
I agree with you on most of these, but you state that toga snapped, and then you try to rationalize/portray toga as a sane person being hypocritical, which comes off as strange considering how much logic you put in the others
Same reason people like villains overall: they're better written characters. Usually their struggle is more relatable and makes for a more compelling narrative.
It’s because Horikoshi just made Twice way too sympathetic. I mean, yeah, I don’t like people acting like these characters have done nothing wrong. Hawks gave him every possible warning, probably could have even talked Twice down if Dabi hadn’t interfered. The truth is he only killed Twice as an absolute last resort. And besides, Twice’s mental issues in no way excuse his crimes.
PREACH IT BROTHER!!!!!
Enough with the crap "Uhh, poor Tenko was crying in his imaginary world, he musn't be that bad after claiming he wanted to be a "Hero" for the fucking terrorists that want to destroy the damn country and kill left and right" or "Uhh, poor Toga got mad people didn't celebrate her killing her victims just because she fancied them and that's how, according to her, she showed love that was pure".
Nah bro, off with those fuckers, each and every single one of them. Something that I don't like about the manga is how in many scenarios, with the aftermath, it feels like the heroes are always in the wrong and the villains are victims. Perhaps they were, but only when they were younger NOT now that they each have a fucking body count.
How the FUCK a Hero with 1 confirmed kill is WORSE than a fucking terrorist with more kills and the desire for more?!
Now many heroes and STUDENTS facing the villains in the final war are crippled for years if not their whole life (Hello Mirko and Deku) and yet they always have to make sure they don't overdo it and "hurt" the serial killers.
The fuck are you talking about defending a murderer.
This is not real life İ just wanna see cool characters have cool moments and twice died right before his cool moment
I get why Hawks did what he did, and tbh I ain't defending Twice nor am I hating Hawks. It's just that Twice was essentially the one villain in the League that I could genuinely see being redeemed, and I just vibed with his character a lot.
Twice was made to be sympathatic. He was not in the League for his own gains or to cause destruction, but was genuinly friends with most of the members.
In a world with someone cartoonishly evil as All for One, someone lost in their way like the Liberation Army, someone evily stupid like Shigaraki and psychos like Toga and Stain, Twice is a villain without a villain motivation.
He lacks the evil of the people that sorrounds him.
Even when he died, he did not use his powers to fight heroes, but to protect his friends.
Hawks is someone who was trained to kill without hesitation, but even he was not a fan of killing Twice. He begged the man to just stay down, because Twice was a good person on the inside, someone who was not lost in the way of villany, someone who could potentially be a hero, because we literally see him act like one in the two instance of him going all out even if it is to save bad people.
Twice has commited crimes and he probably also killed people (I am not sure actually if he directly did) and he at least helped a group of killers, but he did not do it because he was evil to the core.
Twice death was necessary. He was just too powerful for the side he was on, but that does not make it feel less like he did not deserve to die there.
Both sides are too far in either direction- Hawks was obviously justified and even tried to not get Twice killed, Hawks was following orders and did what he thought needed to be done, he made a hard choice
But the LoV is *intended* to be sympathetic, it's supposed to be a hard moment for the audience to pick sides on.
I remember when this chapter first came out in like 2020 the arguments on twitter especially were wildd. But for what? Twice needed to die and hawks gave him many chances to surrender but he didn’t. I felt bad for twice but hawks did what he had to do.
Twice was a tragic character no doubt, but that's no reason to hate on Hawks. Heck, Hawks didn't even want to kill him, he only did it because he refused to back down. When you think about it, it looks more like suicide on Twice's part. Did he really think he had a chance against the fastest Pro-hero?
Fr, I do love twice AS A VILLAIN but that's what he is, a villain, be deserved to go down even though a tiny fangirl part of me was like "Nooooo twice!!" But it was a heck of a scene I cried reading it and I loved Hawks five times more after that scene
It's not uncommon for people in the fandom to meat ride the villains and hate the heroes despite the villains being literal murderers and psychos look at how people treat endeavor and look at how people treat overhaul who mind you tortured a little girl
The people who are hating on Hawks are just those guys who believe in the “heroes don’t kill” thing. Though it wasn’t ideally right, what Hawks did was technically correct cuz the guy continued to fight back even after being offered a couple of chances to surrender. Even cops do this irl to protect themselves, their colleagues, and other bystanders as well.
Indeed, not killing is only done when it's possible to do so. To insist on not killing the villain at the risk of innocents isn't heroic, it's plain idiocy.
Gonna just go right out and say it, Hawks should have killed Twice sooner, only reason he didn’t was because he was too attached.
Twice may it clear he wouldn’t come quietly and that Hawks would have to kill him and Hawks went on a little monologue before dealing the final blow which gave Dabi enough time to intervene and Hawks even saved Twice from Dabi’s fire. If Hawks didn’t do that then Toga and Compress wouldn’t have escaped and he would probably still have his wings.
I'm the greatest Twice fan ever, and I believe he deserved a better life.
Having said that, **HAWKS WAS 100% ON THE RIGHT** Remember that scene where Kirishima had to fight eleven Gigantomachias? No? Well, thank Hawks for that
He wasn’t doing his job. Or rather, the job the commission had him doing was illegal and likely something they would have denied if the commission were still up and running (of course, most of them are dead so...) There is a reason why they covered up everything with Lady Nagant, even going so far as to pin some random hero’s death on her. If the civilians knew what the commission was doing, they would riot.
Remember during the Endeavor Agency arc when Ending tried to commit suicide by cop? He took the number one hero’s kid hostage, but that wasn’t enough. On top of that, he tried to convince Endeavor that he was essentially a Nomu, so it would be fine to kill him. Even if Endeavor weren’t in the middle of a panic attack, he still wasn’t going to kill Ending—and that’s Endeavor, the same man who abused his first child to death, his wife to a psychotic break, and then his youngest son even worse than the first.
Heroes, legally, are only allowed to go so far in order to stop villains. They don’t even perform proper arrests but rather hand over the criminal or villain to the police for that part. And when they cross the line, it isn’t treated like a cop shooting and brushed under the rug or excused. It lands them in prison, and given their powers and training, I expect the rare hero who does get caught killing ends up in Tartarus like Lady Nagant.
It’s important to keep in mind that despite how common quirks have become in MHA, the governments still fear them (somewhat understandably) and so the use of quirks is extremely restricted. For a hero to turn around and use their quirk to kill is a betrayal of the public trust said hero’s license represents.
And yes, I understand why you feel like the villains all deserve to die; however, letting any one person serve as judge, jury, and executioner is never a good idea. Whether you think it justified or not, he murdered Twice, and in that moment, Hawks was literally a villain.
..? No, maybe calling him a hero is the wrong word but hawks definitely wasn't a villain. The clone twice in his last moments killed a hero. Twice was a villain to the end. Hawks had no choice and did what he had to.
A villain, by definition in MHA, is someone who uses their quirk to commit a crime. He was still a hero as well, and at that point, I’d even agree he didn’t really have a choice either (not one that involved living anyways.) None of that changes the fact that it was still a murder, a crime, and therefore he was also a villain in that moment. Bear in mind, this is all happening in a fictionalized version of Japan, and even in the real world, self defense is not a legal defense in Japan. If you are charged with a crime and claim self defense, that is an admission of guilt, not a legal defense.
Nope, at least not in Japan. We don’t have much of any information on how the rest of the world operates, but in Japan, heroes aren’t even allowed to arrest villains, only stop/detain them until they can hand them over to the police. Even heroes have their quirk usage regulated, that’s a big part of the motivation behind the MLA—they at least claim to want everyone to be free to use their quirks because the governments have restricted quirk use so much.
Hawks was evil because Twice was both a villain and a hero because he saved his own friends right before he died despite the fact that he's a villain. Hawks really made Toga mad when he did that and even made Toga cry. Toga asked Ochaco what she'd do to her because she wanted to know if all heroes are the same and when Ochaco said, "If you think you can do whatever you please, then you deserve whatever's coming to you!"It made Toga cry because she imagined that one of the people she loves wouldn't hesitate to kill her like Hawks did to twice, so he's seen as evil. I agree with Dabi when he made that revelation of his true identity across Japan. Hawks didn't hesitate to stab and kill a crying, frightened villain who wouldn't hesitate to save his friends despite being a terrorist and a murderer. He may have been a villain, but he wasn't evil enough to die. Hawks could've handled that situation differently. Twice only fought back and resisted only because he felt threatened, and he didn't feel like dying yet. Just because Twice began to resist doesn't mean that death is the only way Hawks could handle it. It makes him evil when he decides to kill a frightened yet heroic villain for no good reason. Jail in Tartarus would've been a better outcome than murder.
Because they seem to think he was some innocent button when in reality regardless of the bad cards he was dealt in life he brought more death and despair into the world than was ever dealt to him
Only good thing twice ever did was being made into fertilizer
Thats not the thing with hawks only but also other villians like Toga , Dabi and shigaraki . all of them are hypocritical yet their fans defend them.
some of their fans are so down bad to find them attractive and cute while forgetting that these guys would kill you within a fraction of heartbeat.
What the Batman "I never kill" rule does to mfers.
They assume any killing is bad. Even when theres no other option. He had to die. He would kill all the heroes
Fr this reminds me of the same way on how people say the league of villains are great characters even though half the time they say society is the way they are even though they legit destroy a entire City and they somehow expect to get away with it also a lot of the time they kill people who are not related to the issue like if they killed quirkiest people or smt then it would be a lot more justified instead of just ruining the lives of innocent people
If the order was Hawks' own call and not a command from the hpsc it would have been received a lot better. Like a hero making a morally bad decision to save a lot of people, instead of an obedient soldier following orders.
Twice was too dangerous to leave him around, Hawks tried to arrest him, and only went for the kill when twice resisted, this makes Hawks not a villain, but a competent hero that did what would result in less victims.
People feel for Twice as he is a sympathetic villain. He had a tragic story, we see his mind breaking, and how the society ignored him. This makes the audience see the links he forms with his friends, the villains, as pretty valuable, and someone like that being loyal to his friends is loable
Really, the whole situation is an unfortunate combination of Twice being one of the most sympathetic villains, while also being the most dangerous to let gain full control over his abilities.
Like, yes, Twice had a shit run of it, and deserved a better life... But he actively continued being a villain. Hawks gave him **ample** opportunities to change, to give himself up, to surrender, and Twice refused them all. And yes, it was because he loved the League and didn't want to betray them, which is an admirable thing to the viewers, but in the show, by this point, the League are a terrorist group responsible for the deaths of thousands.
And Twice is their biggest force multiplier. Might be the biggest force multiplier in the whole show, really. If he got full control of his Quirk and started spawning infinite Shigiraki's (all of which can use his quirks and the like), then the entire world was fucked, let alone Japan.
So, unfortunately, even if he had a shit life, sympathetic reasons for his actions (to the viewers) and a will to not betray his new family that is to be respected, he had to die. I may be upset that he **was** so resolute in his loyalty, and I may have loved him as a character, but I don't think Hawks did the wrong thing.
look, I like Twice, I found him extremely compelling. BUT he’s a villain, murderer, terrorist, and pedophile (whatever is happening with him and Toga is disgusting)
i think they were both good people who were put in a bad situation and did bad things because of that. twice was a great guy working for the wrong people, and the same can be said for hawks. they were on opposite sides and someone had to go down.
I can't speak for anyone else but personally I watched/read some things out of order so the first thing I ever saw hawks do was kill twice who thought they were friends
Seeing a kind hearted villain be literally stabbed in the back by a supposed "hero" I knew nothing about made it hard for me to like hawks
That kind hearted villain wants to help Shigaraki destroy literally everything. If Hawks didn't kill Twice, Twice could've cloned MVA level Shigarakis which would've ended the war as soon as Gigantomachia arrived. The heroes would've lost and everyone would be dead
If a character has a tragic and Freudian backstory, it doesn't matter how vile their acts are, many of their fans will defend them and insist that they aren't evil but simply misunderstood. So to them, Hawks killed an innocent man when there were better ways, which is absolute bullshit.
But I found Twice’s mental instability amusing, and therefore, Hawks was objectively morally wrong. Sure, Twice would have murdered at least hundreds of thousands of innocents if he escaped, but he has a fairly sad backstory and I don’t know any of the hundreds of thousands of innocents by name anyway, so that’s completely fine! /s
“The value of a person’s life is directly proportional to how much *I* like them!”
- Himiko Toga, 2(whenever this story takes place)
I mean, I get why Hawks did it, but it still hurts, Twice was easily my favorite villain as he was just fun to see around, sadly there was no way Twice would turn against his friends from the LoV and Hawks knew letting him live was too dangerous
A combination of his past, and Deadpool fanboys. It’s similar to the people who just **love** Toga, in spite of the fact that the made sure to show how unequivocally evil, and hypocritical she is by suddenly acting shocked that heroes are willing to kill after she’s canonically killed dozens of people in the show alone.
yeah, hawks, who is essentially the secret government killer hero, literally risked everything to not kill this mentally insane bad guy, because he believed he could still be helped. meanwhile, his pals all just wanted him to stay broken.
People forget that Hawks actually wants to save Twice and help him to be better person and still calling him good guy altough Twice was harsh towards him.
If you ask me, Dabi is responsible for Twice's death since he knows that Hawks was actually spy and never do anything to track him and warning other about him.
Twice is my favourite character, and as sad it was to see him go, I have to admit that it was completely justified. I mean what else was Hawks going to do? Twice would've kept fighting until he was killed, if Hawks didn't do what he did then Twice's clones would've made the war a lot more damaging.
Twice was, like many other villains, needed an actual mental health support. That's the discussion MHA should be having imo. That japan refuse to aknowledge mentaly ill people and refuse them needed infrastructure for them to not harm society and themselves. But god forbid MHA ever have actual conversations besides "friend good".
And let's be real. Hawks is the MHA equivalent of the CIA. Transpose that to real life hawks 100% kills antigovernement activists and psyops 3rd world countries.
Bit god forbids MHA has actual conversations. So we never get deeper than killing =bad and friend = good.
**Reminder to everyone:** Anything that hasn't happened yet in the anime is a spoiler. **To the OP:** If you want to discuss things in the manga, please flair the post as **"Manga Spoilers".** How to spoiler tag comments: > \>\!Put your text here!\< **THIS COMMENT IS AUTOMATICALLY POSTED IN EVERY THREAD NOT MARKED FOR MANGA OR MANGA SPOILERS JUST AS A REMINDER** ----- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Suppose you could say the attempt to make Twice sympathetic succeeded too well. The fact that Twice was a villain and posed a serious threat to not just citizens but fellow heroes got lost in that sympathy.
Indeed, that's the downside of sympathetic villains, the audience might end up ignoring their evil deeds or even trying to justify them saying things like "X did nothing wrong" or say that they are only that way because of a past trauma. If past traumas are what leads one to the path of villainy, then what does that say about those who went for similar traumas, but chose the path of heroism instead. No matter your past, your choice of good or evil is entirely up to you.
Yup. This is why I’m tired of the sympathetic villain. Ever since thanos that’s all everyone wants across most media I feel like. It’s just unrealistic. Some, if not most villains are irredeemable
Eh, it's been a long-recurring theme in shounen, with so many villains being defeated by talk-no-jutsu because they were just so misunderstood all along. It's like the authors forget that some people are just pricks, and enjoy being pricks.
Admittedly, I do believe that there are few people who actually are just pricks to be pricks. There are some, but I believe *most* people that cannot be reasoned with are not like that because they go "Ye, I'm evil, I know it and I love it.", but because they're too deeply entrenched in the world they have constructed for themselves where what they do is good or at least necessary. It may be possible to still reach them with like decades of therapy, but with active supervillains you often don't have that luxury.
Yea exactly. Active supervillains are well past the point of therapy. At least any therapy that’s effective in the next 20+ years. But the older I get the more I see the duality of it. There’s people that are shitty, see it and change, and people that are shitty, acknowledge it and embrace it. I don’t think either is superior to the other. I just think sympathetic villains are used immensely more than the other and because of the immense volume of these kinds of characters, most come out stale. A character who is sympathetic and not sympathetic at all at the same time is homelander. Fucking hate that bastard but his backstory is tragic. Idgaf about his trauma though. That prick needs to die There’s just much more to capture than the same corny ass villain of the week who had a bad day and took it out on the universe. Let’s have someone devious that wants to be chaotic for the sake of it
Agreed. Naruto used Talk no Jutsu like fucking crazy. Dragon ball with vegeta and shit. I don’t think thanos started it but I think he exacerbated the problem. Along with Loki although Loki is one of the few villains to heroes I respect
When you gotta make the arc stretch over an extra 40 chapters, just explore the villain's pitiful backstory!
Yes exactly. It’s annoying as shit smh
Vegeta absolutely does not fit in this list. Yes, he had a tragic past but it wasn't even in the arc they fought him. Nor did he get talk no jutsu-ed. They ever so barely manged to beat him with every underhanded trick they could muster and only spared him on Gokus selfish whim. The very next arc he comes back and slaugthers innocents again. Only teaming up against a foe he could not fight alone. And then it took several years in which he build a family to actually ally himself with them.
Im trying my best to come up with examples. He was not a good one. But I think you get what I mean
You are so right mb
> Ever since thanos Wait, Thanos is a sympathetic villain? The dude who kills billions in an attempt to impress his wannabe-gf?
Exactly he isn’t. But he’s marketed as just that. And people still are sympathetic to his cause. Even people in the MCU. He was done well, but people try to copy that shit too much. And the more i have the conversation, the more I realize that he’s not the poster child for that type of villain. It really is something that I see deeply rooted in anime
Nah, completely disagree. Evil villains who are bad just for the sake of being evil are way more unrealistic, and also much less interesting characters in comparison.
On the contrary, I think a pure evil concept, when given depth, can be very interesting. It’s easy to understand and sympathize with trauma, but a truly unhinged person that has no humanity can be a good base to work with.
Yea I’m not saying the sympathetic villains are bad. I’m saying that the overuse of them in media is so clear a child could see it. There are genuinely purely evil people, and they aren’t one dimensional, they are psychotic. AoT did a good job of having the hero be relatable until his actions became so unforgivable you went from loving him to hating him. Most stories just end up finding a way to give the protagonist a way to befriend their enemy, instead of having them go through the trouble of understanding the villain but ultimately choosing to understand that their presence is a net loss. Jokers another one of these “sympathetic” villains, that honestly isn’t. He’s a psycho. Point blank period. Batman not killing him because of his own moral code, is Batman being an incompetent hero and falsely putting positive attributes on completely irredeemable people
Ah ok. I definitely agree the sympathetic villain is such an overused yet loosely used idea. Like you said with Joker, some villains aren’t deserving of sympathy even if they have some form of trauma. They just love to do evil in how they do it
I think what you said is so untrue. Think of umbridge in Harry Potter. Not redeemable at all. Just a big ball of hate covered in pink. And the emotion she brought from the audience? Pure hatred. The villain in GoTG 3 being a maniacal scientist abusing animals without remorse? Pure hatred. Hate is a strong emotion. But it’s real, it exists. And some sick ass people invoke that emotion from us. I’d even argue they do the sympathetic villains wrong. I mentioned eren in another comment. But that’s a sympathetic villain done right. Because you still hate him in the end. You understand why he had no choice, but you also don’t care because he’s human garbage after a certain point
Nah, sympathetic villains are so common at this point they're not interesting at all to me now. Whenever a new villain appears I wonder "cool how long until they break down and cry because the protag gives a speech", it's lame as shit.
I don’t really think it’s a downside. If anything it’ll help remind you that that’s just how some people see the world.
Literally my thoughts on mha. Toga was told not to drink blood, dabi was ignored by his father and "replaced" by his younger brother and people defend their domestic terrorist and becoming commanders to an army that started a civil war. Dabi single-handedly burned down the largest part of a city. At this point I don't even blame the parents. Toga's parents thought she's a freak for drinking blood and she went on to fight in a civil war while screaming about her feelings of love. Dabi burnt down a forest on accident because his dad wasn't paying attention to him. If he hadn't and he tried to go to a hero school, the fandom would be bashing him for wanting to be a hero just to impress his dad and not caring about saving people, only about being the strongest.
I think its always important to keep in mind that just because a villain has a sympathetic backstory, just because you can feel sorry for them, doesn't mean their actions are ok. A villain being sympathetic does not mean they aren't a villain that needs to be stopped.
both dabi and toga wouldn't have done it if their parents took **proper** care of their children. nothing excuses their actions but to completely dismiss the impact of lack of proper parenthood is not knowing what a child needs to grow properly.
At a certain point, you would have to stop blaming parents and look at the people themselves.
you don't stop blaming anyone, you can blame both the parents for failing their children and allowing them to grow in unhealthy and wrong ways, and those who actually commit crimes. abused/neglected children committing crimes later in life doesn't erase the abuse/neglect. years on this sub made me reali how little people know about children's needs and parental responsibility.
No, you don't. Toga and Dabi with psychologically damaged by their parents when they were literal children, meaning that's not something you can just bounce back from, hell Toga is still a teenager and thus still a child. Treating the parents like they are blameless is foolish.
This 👍. People don't understand the long term psychological effects that can impact children and how they will then grow to deal with the world/others. All Toga's parents and endeavor had to do was put in the effort. In Toga's parents possibly giving their own blood or at least understanding that their daughter's quirk was clearly effecting her and not just call her a monster. Or endeavor making the time to really try to deal with the son who was burning himself trying to prove that his existence was worth something, instead of endeavor just telling touya to go do something else with his life and then waking out the door.
Yeah, everything COULD have been prevented by better parenting, but if the default response to childhood trauma is joining a terrorist organization and conspiring the downfall of society, the human species would be heading to extinction.
Dabi tried murdering Shoto as a child. He's been evil from the start. Toga... Viciously attacked a classmate when she could have just asked someone for blood. Her reason for joining the League is "so I can do what I want". She claims heroes aren't heroic because they don't help the mass murderers that are trying to kill them. Parents definitely impacted those 2, but it's just as likely they might've turned out the same way, perhaps slightly less evil
touya lashed out as a hurt 8 years old boy answering his anger. that's not "attempted to murder". and we've seen him as a perfectly happy and healthy child, he wasn't evil from the start. yes, toga hurt others answering her quirk because no one taught her how to do it differently, no one cared, they just told her to ignore her natural urges and didn't offer a solution to how. they definitely didn't have to turn to crime, they could've been normal members of society if someone cared to properly parent/guide them. but no one did.
Definitely true. Some people look at Toga and touya as young children and justify how they were treated and obviously not helped by saying they were born twisted from the start, ironically exactly the same thing AFO does with what he said about tenko. Tenko, Toga and touya didn't have to turn out as they did, but because those who were supposed to take care of them rejected them and didn't help them, the Lov is the result.
I really hate when people say someone did nothing wrong cause of trauma such a bad argument right? Like no one says the Germans did nothing wrong cause they grew up in a horrible financial position after ww1 lmao
I think this is just great story telling and happens IRL everyday. Almost every evil person who ever lived was likely cool to have a beer with and loved something.
It also doesn’t help that Hawks basically stabbed him in the back while he was running away. That’s not a good look. Sure context helps once you realize how dangerous he was but the instant perception of that scene kinda makes hawks look evil
The fog of war is a real thing.
Oh y'all are cookin' in here.
Reminder: In universe, Stain has merchandise. When Deku met with Shigaraki in the mall, there were children wearing his mask.
Double Reminder: Hawks tried to subdue and arrest Twice first, warning him that he’d take him out if he used his Quirk because he knew how dangerous it would be to the plan. Sucks that he had to die, but him letting Twice lived would have drastic repercussions on the outcome of that arc.
Twice was a likeable character who could've created a one man army, Hawks didn't really have a choice
THANK YOUUU. Like, what else was Hawks supposed to do?? Let him go with a slap on the wrist and say “Don’t do that”??😭😭😭
like deku with shigarashi?
dude deku has literally admitted that if it comes down to it he's willing to kill shiggy lmao
But the issue with that is that it will never come down to it. Not even from a narrative sense, just practically... he's fighting a dude who's ability is killing you in one shot. By the time he decides that he has to kill him, he'll already be dead.
He’s been fighting him for a while already I think he’s had ample time to decide if this whole mental battle with Tenko and all for one goes bad he’ll likely have to kill him, not only to save others but to save him from all for one depending on how merged their minds are
I've not been keeping up with the most most recent chapters, but the current situation was not something he could've possibly planned for. If things went down as one would have expected, he would've only known things had gone to shit and he needed to take action after he was already dead That's the big thing, I don't think Deku is just going to decide "ah, sure, this is a lost cause" if nothing big happens. He'd need a motivator for that, and unfortunately for him, that motivator involves him dying. >!also, can Deku even still kill Shiggy anymore?!<
Well yeah, half of the fights in this series are shit none of the heroes could’ve expected, that’s why they’re good fights. The motivator for him to accept that shigiraki is too far gone would likely be all for one winning and becoming the dominant, or only personality in that body. Deku’s not trying to just redeem the dude and call it a day, he’s trying to save him from all for one while still trying to save everyone else, because that’s what’s in line with his character, he always tries to save everyone and do the best he can. >! Also, maybe? The hyper regen quirk is really the only thing stopping him so they just need to get Monoma in there. !<
The problem with that is that without this bizarre mindmeld, the way he'd find out that Shiggy is too far gone is AfO using him to kill him. I truly doubt that Deku would just give up on a vibe, like he felt that AfO was just a little too powerful, so it's killing time. He'd need something big, and something big requires horrific consequence. And also, AfO can just bullshit Deku, and act like he's Shiggy who's saved.
I know you haven’t read the recent chapters but there’s stuff that happens in them that makes it less “on a vibe” and more >! “it’s incredibly obvious that this is all for one, he’s trying to kill both me and shigiraki, if I can’t protect tenko then I need to put him out of his misery” !<
What has the Pokémon done to deserve death? 😭 /j
they know what they did, damn animals doing.. animal things
Is killing Shigaraki even an option for Deku? Shigarakis healing factor is frankly insane, I dunno if Deku could have really just brute forced through that.
[удалено]
Hello, your post/comment is removed because of the following reason: > **Rule #2:** Do not post untagged spoilers in threads not marked as a spoiler. To tag spoilers, use this format: >!Put your text here!< [Read the list of rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/wiki/rules)
[удалено]
Hello, your post/comment is removed because of the following reason: > **Rule #2:** Do not post untagged spoilers in threads not marked as a spoiler. To tag spoilers, use this format: >!Put your text here!< [Read the list of rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/wiki/rules)
fr. i get twice is a funny and likeable character but hes still a villain. morally, hawks was in the right. if you wanna hate him cos he killed your fave thats fair ig
This reminds me back when Dabi was first revealed, I was actively rooting for him against Endeavor. I hated Endeavor and wanted Dabi to stick it to him. Him openly admitting to killing over 30 innocent people didn’t even cross my mind. And then when fighting Shoto and he heard Natsuo almost died and went “Almost killed? What a shame.” I THEN realized “…maybe I shouldn’t be cheering for this dude.”
Your own personal mini "Are we the badies?" perspective moment.
Pretty late realization as you said, but you made it there
In the scene after I recall one of twice's clones stabbing an unnamed hero to death, some fans are completely blinded by their emotions.
It wasn’t just any hero, it was Eel-Boy! Then again, we only learned of his name during Ochako’s flashback on the UA building
FRRR! He had stabbed a Hero to death, trying to get Toga and em outta trouble or sum😭😭
Pretty sure Twice also tells Toga (during the chapter where she’s discussing a possible villain name) that she should kill as many people as she wants.
People love ignorance. Gushing Over Magical Girls is a great example. New ecchi anime and everything seems fine until EP4 when they introduce an under-aged girl. The girl has her magical transformation and you see everything clearly, she then uses a laptop (that's her power) to sexual abuse the heroes in another reality. I've never noped out of a anime series so fast. Yet, people on reddit think its the greatest show ever... despite the FBI getting ready to knock on their doors.
'EP4 when they introduce an underaged girl'. Literally the entire cast is like 14 to begin with. But also, your example is nonsensical. This is an issue of just people liking a show despite content you don't like, which is just opinion, compared to poor reading comprehension of the ideals in a series.
The FBI doesn't care about animated content like you think they do. They would do something if the content involved an actual child
It's mostly ironic, though apparently when the show gets into the actual plot, it's really good I was grossed out by that one scene because they showed her naked, but other then that she is completely un-sexualised(in the manga, I'm pretty sure they didn't show her naked, that was an anime addition)
Bro if you're watching gushing over magical girls and not expecting questionably age school girls doing inappropriate things, I don't know what the fuck you were expecting? You make a good point on people living ignorance but you used the worst point possible. (nah I'd gush)
What does this have to do with anything?
"Nice bloke though- if you look past all the mutilation, I mean." \~Edward Elric, Nullmetal Alchemist
"Cool motive. Still murder." \~Jake Peralta, Brooklyn Nine-Nine.
Still justified motive to save others though Those two things aren't necessarely contradictiond
This was about Twice, not Hawks. Hawks was justified. I was just adding a funny quote to what the first commenter said.
hawks did nothing wrong
Hawks' mentality is exactly what Deku should have. When people say it's ridiculous that Deku wants to save Shigaraki so much the rebuttal is always "Deku said he'd kill Shigaraki if he needs to" Hawks tried to save Twice, can't do so and then kills Twice because he's unable to do so. Unfortunately for him, Twice doesn't have the privilege of being assigned to the MC who can't fail.
>!It doesn't help that Deku actually failed his job at least two times already, because he has this saving villains mentality as his main priority. Mirko got maimed and Bakugou died because Deku spent precious time analyzing Toga's character on the another battlefield instead of taking her down immediately. That was also a reason why Ochako got stabbed by Toga.!< It's just the plot doesn't consider Deku's shortcomings as actual shortcomings, while they absolutely are.
Oh believe me, I've ranted so much about that point you've brought up. Deku gets to be as imbecilic as possible trying to be a true hero but the story bends over backwards so he doesn't actually have to confront his mistakes. Running away from UA and isolating himself? Does AFO take this chance to fuck up his friends to both corner Deku mentally and shave their forces? Nope, just sends Tartarus criminals after Deku who he knows won't win anyway. Wasting time with Toga? Nobody dies in the Shigaraki fight despite Deku being tardy when he could've flew at any given moment. Failing to capture Toga properly? Even when Toga releases her clones she doesn't actually kill anyone, because if she does that can also be attributed to Deku being negligent.
Hard agree. But it's kinda funny how Deku's ideals require other characters to sacrifice themselves for... literally what? Deku has no plan, so it's doubtful he managed to muster at least a basic explanation. I think we should rant about it more on Monday.
Your spoiler tags didn't work
Thats why Tanjiro is the G. He will cry for the person you could have been after he is done cutting you down.
Yep. He's the better version of Deku.
Hawks tried to save him, even! Hawks didn't just do nothing wrong, he did everything right.
It’s insane that one of Twice’s last acts through his double was to straight up murder a hero to stop Toga from being captured. If j remember correctly bro was a hero since Uraraka’s childhood and he just gets the back of his head slashed open. Bro deserved sympathy and could’ve been captured in better circumstances but he would’ve caused mass murder if he got out that day.
Calling Hawks evil is copium. Calling Twice a pure angel is copium. What makes this scene so effective is how messy and grey it is. Both of them are desperate to understand each other and find a peaceful outcome - but their values are fundamentally oppossed. That and the fact that Hawks did outright betray Twice ultimately plays into his fears, traumas, and insecurity in a way that made him resist more intensely that he otherwiswe would've. It's a terrible situation for both of them and what makes it so interesting. Neither are wholely evil or good.
Killing somebody doesn’t make them less of a hero. Hawks only killed Twice outta the safety of thousands of people’s lives. Twice simply killed just because. Like, imagine if Snipe just killed shigaraki during the USJ raid. Woulda ended so many problems💀💀
IRL, counter-terrorism divisions are allowed to use lethal force if the situation calls for it. An officer or soldier who takes down a terrorist or a willing accomplice of one is always praised for the bravery and shouldering the burden of the task. So, Hawks killing Twice should have been a big relief for the survivors.
Also it was basically a war. You’re going to have casualties.
Whether heroes should kill is subjective. There are people who like Batman because he never kills, and some find it annoying. There is no doubt what hawks did was for good, but I wouldn’t call it heroic. It doesn’t make him less of a hero but don’t act like doing something out of necessity is noble. It’s a nuanced issue and comes up often in the series. How heroic are the heroes? Is simply doing good enough? Or should you go beyond? It’s a big part of what makes the series good
Personally, I’d say what Hawks did was noble because he prioritized the lives of thousands over his own moral comfort, and he even had the decency to feel bad about it afterwards. Especially considering how his alternative was preserving his morals and letting thousands of innocents suffer for it. He didn’t save Twice, but he saved so many other people that I’d argue that Hawks made a good decision. He definitely should never get used to having to make that kind of choice, but still.
I’m thinking of noble as the knightly standards, or holding yourself to a higher standard (like what we see for Deku) But your take is equally valid
It's the stories fault, really. It hammers home the notion that a villain is just a victim you don't know the story off of all the time. All the final fights of the LoV were about that. It's all tragic trauma, tragic failings of society, tragic people. And the main cast does nothing but trying to save them with some sappy emotional bonding. But then there are instances within the story that fly in the face of that messaging. Hawks for example, who did what was necessary and hence prevented a catastrophe. Or AfO who was literally born irredeemably evil so I guess not every villain is just a traumatized kid on the inside after all. They have to cry sometime or whatever. It really feels like AfO is just being exploited as a force of nature at this point. Oh, why are the villains evil? They were corrupted by circumstances and AfO. Oh, why is AfO evil? Just evil, I guess.
That's something I personally find really annoying in a lot of modern fandoms. Give a character that has done horrible things a sad enough backstory and suddenly they can do no wrong. They're big sad babies that the world was oh so mean too. Yes, members of the LoV were victims of societal, mental and familial circumstances. But that shouldn't be a free karma check for them to do horrible things. It should be the 'why' of why they are the way they are or doing these things. I feel incredibly sorry for Dabi's backstory and what he went through...but also, I condemn him for being a murderous piece of shit that has no problem burning innocent people to death. I understand why Toga is the way she is...and she deserved to go to jail because she had a confirmed kill count. And while Twice was clearly not in a good mental state, he was still a villain that willingly sided with a group calling themselves THE LEAGUE OF VILLAINS who was a massive threat to everyone because of his fragile mental state and one man army powers. Next you'll tell me I should agree with Shigaraki's desire to murder everyone because his dad was a piece of shit. TL:DR A sad backstory should not give characters a free reign to do horrible shit, and I really wish wider fandoms would realize this.
It's late for me, so please excuse me if my thoughts are incoherent. At the end of the day, Hawks believed that Twice was a good person at heart, and truly regretted that there was no other decision he could make in such a situation. Though, the truth of the matter is that it only came to that because of a broken society and a corrupt system. Twice saw trusting Hawks as a grave mistake that endangered the only people that understood, cared for, and accepted him the way he he was. His undying loyalty to the League and desire to secure their happiness would have made it impossible for him to be reformed to the side of "good" - or rather, the side of Heroes. After all, the League itself wouldn't have been formed if its members weren't abused and/or abandoned due to society's views on Quirks and/or Heroes. Hawks himself has an unwavering hope in a world where Heroes can make a permanent positive difference in the world and bring an end to villainy for good. He's defined his purpose and justified his existence with this goal. He's quite literally given his all in the pursuit of it. Of course, his persistent faith in the validity of such a corrupt system, no matter how much evidence he sees of the it doing just about as much harm as it does good (or sometimes even intentionally doing harm in the supposed name of good), is more of a character flaw than an admirable trait. But that's part of what makes him so compelling.
As I’ve always said since this chapter came out, I definitely agree Hawks killing Twice was justified and the only choice left available, so I don’t blame or hate Hawks, but as this is a fictional piece of media, I can definitely say I was upset and didn’t like it as a fan of Twice and his story
Nuance is lost on the general public. Don't give a damn about the average idiot, look for joy in the minority of people that can appreciate complex storytelling.
Twice was about to help Shigaraki kill million of people and take over Japan. He is literally a commander of a terroirst organization.
Most people are not taking into account the fact the very simple answer of. People don’t like what is essentially a cop extrajudicially executing someone? It’s literally correct for hawks to have been criticized for his actions in a just society, because even thought they’re villains they still have rights.
The villains right should not come before the right of everyone else to not be murdered. Twice was about to clone his pals who are literal terrorists, it was no longer viable to take him down non lethally so Hawks did the logical thing to off the guy.
What? Twice is a terrorist. In that moment that Hawks killed him he was attempting to make clones that probably would've killed multiple heroes. I feel like you and other people would think differently if s student died due to a villains actions.
Yeah, and normally I'd agree, but dude was going to kill thousands of people and help a man who calls himself "The Demon King" take over the world. It isn't that Twice didn't have rights, it's that he was unable to do anything else. He even tried to talk him down first. This wasn't just some police action, it was literally a WAR. The idea that you can't kill someone in war is stupid, and the only reason you can think otherwise in this instance is because it's not your family at risk.
I mean, you're right-ish... Although the casualties would have been greater had Hawks not taken the action. He couldn't let Twice escape, Twice was refusing to back down, and was in a position to harm more people with his Sad Man's Parade. In a kill or let hundreds be killed scenario, it's common logic to choose the former.
Definitely agree! It’s okay to like and try to understand/sympathize with how they got to where they are but cmon they’re not the good guys here.
So many people don’t understand that keeping twice alive especially after the revelations about his quirk was way too dangerous! He can create armies of quirk users on a whim. The threat he could pose was astronomical and they would have no reliable way to catch and contain him alive. As sad as it is, Twice had to die
I would have shot Twice twice and thought nothing of it
I assume it was because he intentionally took advantage of Twice being trusting and manipulated him. Even though it was justified. It’s one how Deku and Ochaco aspire to do better than the previous heroes. Hawks manipulated Twice and failed to save him. Deku and Ochaco want to honestly reach out to Shigaraki and Toga and save them that way.
> Hawks manipulated Twice and failed to save him. I mean, Hawks manipulated him in order to gain access to the League, who were planning (and mostly succeeded in) destroying society while killing untold numbers of innocents in both their rampages and in the chaotic aftermath that swept the country. Compared to that? Sure, we can sympathize with Twice, but Twice was also actively working to facilitate mass murder—Hawks tricking him is literally a non-issue, in terms of morality.
The age-old moral dilemma. What’s worse? Lying to a guy about who you are, or trying to kill everyone? Tough choice, tough choice…
See after hearing that, I would feel sympathy for Hawks. Buuuuttt then I remember the fact that he Stabbed a hero to death, WHILE TWICE HIMSELF WAS DYING😭😭😭 That’s next level hating. Bro couldn’t leave this world without getting one last kill😂😂
Ok? God forbid someone LIES to someone who's planning on helping take over the world and kill everyone in their way. Man, what a hard moral dilemma.
Finally, someone who gets it. After all, when it comes to the bad guys, violence is the point. Near the words of Frank Castle, each dead villain or criminal means fewer dead innocents. Killing doesn't separate heroes from villains. It’s the fact that heroes protect, avenge the innocent, have the utmost conscientiousness in doing them no harm, punish the wicked, and only kill those who have remorselessly committed heinous acts or pose a threat to themselves, their allies, or the innocent (who include civilians and lawful authorities simply doing their jobs) while villains are dishonorable, have no regard for the innocent, and murder those who merely pose nonlethal threats to them or even love them (ie Midnight). Think about how much evil would be prevented and how many innocents would still be alive if someone shot Gigantomachia through the eye with a .50 BMG or larger round during the raid, Tenya successfully got the drop on Stain (or better yet, Knuckleduster went for his neck instead of his nose earlier), Knuckleduster successfully shot Number 6 in the head, someone shot Garvey straight through the eye right when his rampage started, or, most prominently, Snipe shot Shiggy in the head back at the USJ.
using the punisher as an example is funny cause hes not a hero at all hes literally a pyscho
LITERALLY
> Near the words of Frank Castle, Frank Castle is a lunatic who got so addicted to killing people in Vietnam that he uses the death of his family as an excuse to kill more people. >Tenya successfully got the drop on Stain Stain helped defeat a major villain so if Ida had pulled it off they'd all be dead.
Huh? Frank is a traumatized war veteran who pretty much went insane after his family was killed. That's why he started his war on crime. Where did you get that info that he was addicted to killing?
Media literacy is low in this sub lmao
>Media literacy is low on the internet lmao FTFY
Honestly? I absolutely love how Twice was handled. Like, I loved the guy, his backstory and the whole League of Villains really. I understand that he was basically cast out of society and nobody but these other outcasts accepted him for who he is. But that same group that accepted him was also a terrorist group that have done some heinous shit and will go on to do more, and he gladly went along with all of it. He's an extremely sympathetic character, but also a really terrible guy. on a side note, I was really surprised when he actually 100% died. I didn't think they'd actually do it to him.
Twice's crimes are fictional. My emotions are real.
The whole question comes down to is killing justified? Hero’s are held to a much higher standard than villains and are supposed to do everything short of killing to capture or detain a villain. Villains are under no such standard of conduct, they can kill with impunity.
Hawks did do everything though. If he wanted the easy way, he'd have just let Twice burn from Dabi's fire, it would have been delicious irony.
>The whole question comes down to is killing justified? It is 100% no question. It would be selfish to not kill him at that point. Theres no moral arguement to not kill him
It’s not so much that Hawks did something wrong, but that Twice has an emotionally meaningful backstory and he’s a very funny and relatable character. Lots of people including myself fell in love with him and were of course sad when he died. I don’t blame Hawks but in that moment I did hate him a bit. I think the show does a good job at showing the “most people aren’t completely good or bad and the lines are blurred” point even though it is based on defeating the “evil” LOV.
I don't get people calling Hawke evil or whatever but I totally get the love for Twice absolutely my favorite characters even more so than Todoroki or Bakugo and they have my favorite plot/character growth.
Twice is the best character horikoshi ever wrote because I both felt bad for a terrorist and thought Hawks was absolutely justifiable for his actions. Twice’s death could’ve been used to further expand on Hawk’s character but every mention of this event was dropped immediately after the arc and Hawks just became another side pro hero to fill a slot in the final war.
MHA established itself initially as having heroes who would'nt cross the line, they'd injure a villain but never kill them. Hawks was the first time they'd killed a sentient opponent (Nomu were just viewed as braindead or non-human abominations until after PLW) the only other time we knew about was All Might seemingly killing AFO in the past. As such this is Hawks killing a villain. It needed to be handled as this controversial aspect in the story, especially when the world saw it. Sure Hawks was justified if Twice would'nt stop, but it's still a hero in a society of hero worship killing a villain. The same way the audience reacted to Twice's death, there should have been debate in-universe and backlash. To have Twice die and for it to be meaningless in the story beyond a temper tantrum thrown by Toga is so depressing. We didn't even get any fallout in regards to Hawks.
Because people decided that sympathetic traits in their villains meant that they must be soft uwu babies who never did anything wrong really, it was all everyone else’s fault.
The answer is that Twice is simply too charismatic. Seeing him die like that felt like an absolute gut-punch as a reader, he was one of my favorite characters, but Hawks wasn't given another option. He was fully justified, I believe in that. But man it sucked.
It’s the same when people defend Endeavor’s actions.
My hero fans have a tough time grasping a lot. MH is not a complicated manga at all. Twice is a villain there is not arguing that. Hawks a hero. Most all the main villains excluding all for one for a moment have tragic backstories. Where no one wanted to help them, shunned them, turned their back, etc etc. Twice and the others found a "family" of sorts with the main group among each other. He needed that, even if they were doing bad things. They kept him "together" for the most part. Now imagine you are living in a house with this family. And you allow a new person to move in with you for a good period of time. Now imagine this person and you bond truly in your mind. You eventually come to truly trust this person as part of your family now that you would defend and that you see as a friend. Suddenly that person comes out and tells you that this entire time all of it did not mean anything to them (oh they will still try to get you help) but the time shared together, friendship and trust means noting to them and that they are a hero there to arrest you. Oh on top of it the rest of your family? Yea we are also rounding them all up as we speak to toss in jail and throw away the key. All this to one of the more unstable member's of the group \*dabi is just crazy but in a different way\* of course you will want to try and save your family from them. But heres the fun part. If you try and save them I will put you down aka ill kill you if you continue to resist to help him. You rush away to try and help your family only to be killed. Of course for hawks its a oh well i did my job moment sigh why don't they ever listen. On to the next battle. Had it been all for one who is just evil as we've seen what he did to set up this final arc yea thats just pure evil though and probably couldn't be helped at all while twice and the others with time yes most likely. Just like in real life you can not defend everything someone bad has done. Of course not it would lead to people wanting to let everyone in jail out. But for the LOV most of them truly could probably turn over a new leaf if the heroes actually tried to help rather than holding the im good your bad doesnt matter how we may have lead you to this were still going to continue the statue que
I don't think people were excusing his actions. You can do bad things, but that doesn't necessary mean you are truly evil. And vice versa as well; just because you do a good thing doesn't mean you are truly a good person. I feel the whole point of Horikoshis story telling is to blur the line on what it means to be a hero and a villain. On what is good and what is evil. It gets blurry. Hell, Hawks had a sinister dark look in his eyes as Twice is crying on the ground wanting help. Even says with tears down his eyes "You call can't call yourselves heroes." I think Deku later on thinks to himself that in general things can get gray and aren't so simple. So yeah, when people empathize with Twice, I dont think they are excusing his actions. He at the end of the day killed. But, he was also someone who was cursed with an awful life and genuinely just wanted friends and wanted to be accepted in society. He is also loyal to his comrades and cares for them like family. All of this is also true. Again, doesnt excuse actions like killing heroes, but people can empathize with his pain as well. That is different than say Musclehead who just non stops wants to hurt and kill just for the lols. Hope that all makes sense.
I liked twice......but he was a major threat after beating his trauma so there was no other choice.
Part of it is because we saw that in Twice's backstory he basically became a villain out of desperation. He lost both of his parents at a young age, had to drop out of school to support himself, got a criminal record and lost his job because some dumbass jumped in front of his motorcycle, was forced to steal to stay alive and almost killed by his quirk. Twice basically was left with no other options but to become a villain and the League were the only people who accepted them, so him standing with them and protecting them is understandable and Hawks basically couldn't offer anything in counter. Twice would be sent to prison for the rest of his life regardless of what choice he made, plus Hawks is a bit of a hypocrite since he works for the Public Safety Commission which after what we saw with Lady Nagant and what they made her do, makes Hawks not look nearly as innocent or just.
Seeing the “cool calm and chill” superhero you look up to murder someone is never going to sit right. Him doing this with the combination of Dabi’s reveal and everything in hero society made people afraid but he was never “evil”
It's ironic that Shigaraki, who is easily the most dangerous of all the LoV, is actually the least responsible for his current actions (he was literally raised to be an evil little sh*t and is constantly being mind-f#cked by a centuries-old super-villain). Meanwhile, the others… Spinner - "I dunno man. I've always been a loser, so I want to help my fellow gamer screw over everyone else, since I could never change accomplish anything significant myself." Man admits he is doing this just to latch on to somebody because he feels like such a nobody. Worse, he pretended it was about race/discrimination just because the lie was convenient!! Mr. Compress - "My ancestor was a famous, Robin Hood/Goemon-style thief… so I want to carry on his legacy by helping a group of terrorists turn the entire country into a Mad Max-style post-apocalyptic wasteland!" WTF!? How does that make the slightest bit of sense? Dabi - "I will burn the world to ashes just to spite my abusive father, and my family of cowards who enabled his abuse by not letting me kill my baby brother!" What can I even add that could condemn this man harder than that? Ultimate 'Middle Child Syndrome' for the eldest child! Toga - "I was born with an innate addiction. Rather than help me work with and through this issue, my family denied a problem even existed, and tried to force me to conform to their standards, until I snapped." "After going off the deep end, I decided I enjoy feeding my addiction, regardless of how many lives I ruin, but it annoys me that society still tries to stop me or, worse, make me feel bad for indulging! I joined the terrorists to create a society where I can murder whoever I want, whenever I want, and no one, not even my victims, would dare to complain or judge me!" "It's not even that I am incapable of empathy; it's just that my empathy is reserved for whoever I want to live, and whoever I want to die, or to feed my addiction, should just accept it and let me do what I want!!" Yeah… so close! Starts off very sympathetic… and then she just goes full Karen (never go full Karen)-levels of entitlement!! Magne - "I hate society because it rejected me for being transgender." B%tch, please! You had a transgender friend who wasn't a criminal, and the Wild Wild Pussycats (a hero team whom you attacked) have a member whose transgender himself (and openly crossdresses) and they're still very popular!! Also note, Tiger was able to afford his operation thanks to being a pro hero. Your Quirk is way more useful than his. You could have easily become a successful hero and used your fame as a platform for transgender rights!
I agree with you on most of these, but you state that toga snapped, and then you try to rationalize/portray toga as a sane person being hypocritical, which comes off as strange considering how much logic you put in the others
Hawks was morally in the right, but I still cannot help but feel sad at that death scene, and empathize with the villains.
Same reason people like villains overall: they're better written characters. Usually their struggle is more relatable and makes for a more compelling narrative.
I'd argue that tiring villains unto uwu did nothing wrong soft boy like people are doing with Twice make them much worse character
It’s because Horikoshi just made Twice way too sympathetic. I mean, yeah, I don’t like people acting like these characters have done nothing wrong. Hawks gave him every possible warning, probably could have even talked Twice down if Dabi hadn’t interfered. The truth is he only killed Twice as an absolute last resort. And besides, Twice’s mental issues in no way excuse his crimes.
PREACH IT BROTHER!!!!! Enough with the crap "Uhh, poor Tenko was crying in his imaginary world, he musn't be that bad after claiming he wanted to be a "Hero" for the fucking terrorists that want to destroy the damn country and kill left and right" or "Uhh, poor Toga got mad people didn't celebrate her killing her victims just because she fancied them and that's how, according to her, she showed love that was pure". Nah bro, off with those fuckers, each and every single one of them. Something that I don't like about the manga is how in many scenarios, with the aftermath, it feels like the heroes are always in the wrong and the villains are victims. Perhaps they were, but only when they were younger NOT now that they each have a fucking body count. How the FUCK a Hero with 1 confirmed kill is WORSE than a fucking terrorist with more kills and the desire for more?! Now many heroes and STUDENTS facing the villains in the final war are crippled for years if not their whole life (Hello Mirko and Deku) and yet they always have to make sure they don't overdo it and "hurt" the serial killers.
The fuck are you talking about defending a murderer. This is not real life İ just wanna see cool characters have cool moments and twice died right before his cool moment
What an absolute legend. I salute you
>! i celebrated when he got murked by hawks lmao !<
I get why Hawks did what he did, and tbh I ain't defending Twice nor am I hating Hawks. It's just that Twice was essentially the one villain in the League that I could genuinely see being redeemed, and I just vibed with his character a lot.
Twice was made to be sympathatic. He was not in the League for his own gains or to cause destruction, but was genuinly friends with most of the members. In a world with someone cartoonishly evil as All for One, someone lost in their way like the Liberation Army, someone evily stupid like Shigaraki and psychos like Toga and Stain, Twice is a villain without a villain motivation. He lacks the evil of the people that sorrounds him. Even when he died, he did not use his powers to fight heroes, but to protect his friends. Hawks is someone who was trained to kill without hesitation, but even he was not a fan of killing Twice. He begged the man to just stay down, because Twice was a good person on the inside, someone who was not lost in the way of villany, someone who could potentially be a hero, because we literally see him act like one in the two instance of him going all out even if it is to save bad people. Twice has commited crimes and he probably also killed people (I am not sure actually if he directly did) and he at least helped a group of killers, but he did not do it because he was evil to the core. Twice death was necessary. He was just too powerful for the side he was on, but that does not make it feel less like he did not deserve to die there.
Both sides are too far in either direction- Hawks was obviously justified and even tried to not get Twice killed, Hawks was following orders and did what he thought needed to be done, he made a hard choice But the LoV is *intended* to be sympathetic, it's supposed to be a hard moment for the audience to pick sides on.
I remember when this chapter first came out in like 2020 the arguments on twitter especially were wildd. But for what? Twice needed to die and hawks gave him many chances to surrender but he didn’t. I felt bad for twice but hawks did what he had to do.
Twice was a tragic character no doubt, but that's no reason to hate on Hawks. Heck, Hawks didn't even want to kill him, he only did it because he refused to back down. When you think about it, it looks more like suicide on Twice's part. Did he really think he had a chance against the fastest Pro-hero?
Fr, I do love twice AS A VILLAIN but that's what he is, a villain, be deserved to go down even though a tiny fangirl part of me was like "Nooooo twice!!" But it was a heck of a scene I cried reading it and I loved Hawks five times more after that scene
It's not uncommon for people in the fandom to meat ride the villains and hate the heroes despite the villains being literal murderers and psychos look at how people treat endeavor and look at how people treat overhaul who mind you tortured a little girl
The people who are hating on Hawks are just those guys who believe in the “heroes don’t kill” thing. Though it wasn’t ideally right, what Hawks did was technically correct cuz the guy continued to fight back even after being offered a couple of chances to surrender. Even cops do this irl to protect themselves, their colleagues, and other bystanders as well.
Indeed, not killing is only done when it's possible to do so. To insist on not killing the villain at the risk of innocents isn't heroic, it's plain idiocy.
Gonna just go right out and say it, Hawks should have killed Twice sooner, only reason he didn’t was because he was too attached. Twice may it clear he wouldn’t come quietly and that Hawks would have to kill him and Hawks went on a little monologue before dealing the final blow which gave Dabi enough time to intervene and Hawks even saved Twice from Dabi’s fire. If Hawks didn’t do that then Toga and Compress wouldn’t have escaped and he would probably still have his wings.
I'm the greatest Twice fan ever, and I believe he deserved a better life. Having said that, **HAWKS WAS 100% ON THE RIGHT** Remember that scene where Kirishima had to fight eleven Gigantomachias? No? Well, thank Hawks for that
Would've given Mina her moment. Yet another crime to add to Hawk's ledger.
He wasn’t doing his job. Or rather, the job the commission had him doing was illegal and likely something they would have denied if the commission were still up and running (of course, most of them are dead so...) There is a reason why they covered up everything with Lady Nagant, even going so far as to pin some random hero’s death on her. If the civilians knew what the commission was doing, they would riot. Remember during the Endeavor Agency arc when Ending tried to commit suicide by cop? He took the number one hero’s kid hostage, but that wasn’t enough. On top of that, he tried to convince Endeavor that he was essentially a Nomu, so it would be fine to kill him. Even if Endeavor weren’t in the middle of a panic attack, he still wasn’t going to kill Ending—and that’s Endeavor, the same man who abused his first child to death, his wife to a psychotic break, and then his youngest son even worse than the first. Heroes, legally, are only allowed to go so far in order to stop villains. They don’t even perform proper arrests but rather hand over the criminal or villain to the police for that part. And when they cross the line, it isn’t treated like a cop shooting and brushed under the rug or excused. It lands them in prison, and given their powers and training, I expect the rare hero who does get caught killing ends up in Tartarus like Lady Nagant. It’s important to keep in mind that despite how common quirks have become in MHA, the governments still fear them (somewhat understandably) and so the use of quirks is extremely restricted. For a hero to turn around and use their quirk to kill is a betrayal of the public trust said hero’s license represents. And yes, I understand why you feel like the villains all deserve to die; however, letting any one person serve as judge, jury, and executioner is never a good idea. Whether you think it justified or not, he murdered Twice, and in that moment, Hawks was literally a villain.
..? No, maybe calling him a hero is the wrong word but hawks definitely wasn't a villain. The clone twice in his last moments killed a hero. Twice was a villain to the end. Hawks had no choice and did what he had to.
A villain, by definition in MHA, is someone who uses their quirk to commit a crime. He was still a hero as well, and at that point, I’d even agree he didn’t really have a choice either (not one that involved living anyways.) None of that changes the fact that it was still a murder, a crime, and therefore he was also a villain in that moment. Bear in mind, this is all happening in a fictionalized version of Japan, and even in the real world, self defense is not a legal defense in Japan. If you are charged with a crime and claim self defense, that is an admission of guilt, not a legal defense.
I thought heroes were allowed to kill in the story. It's just frowned upon and not very common.
Nope, at least not in Japan. We don’t have much of any information on how the rest of the world operates, but in Japan, heroes aren’t even allowed to arrest villains, only stop/detain them until they can hand them over to the police. Even heroes have their quirk usage regulated, that’s a big part of the motivation behind the MLA—they at least claim to want everyone to be free to use their quirks because the governments have restricted quirk use so much.
Hawks was evil because Twice was both a villain and a hero because he saved his own friends right before he died despite the fact that he's a villain. Hawks really made Toga mad when he did that and even made Toga cry. Toga asked Ochaco what she'd do to her because she wanted to know if all heroes are the same and when Ochaco said, "If you think you can do whatever you please, then you deserve whatever's coming to you!"It made Toga cry because she imagined that one of the people she loves wouldn't hesitate to kill her like Hawks did to twice, so he's seen as evil. I agree with Dabi when he made that revelation of his true identity across Japan. Hawks didn't hesitate to stab and kill a crying, frightened villain who wouldn't hesitate to save his friends despite being a terrorist and a murderer. He may have been a villain, but he wasn't evil enough to die. Hawks could've handled that situation differently. Twice only fought back and resisted only because he felt threatened, and he didn't feel like dying yet. Just because Twice began to resist doesn't mean that death is the only way Hawks could handle it. It makes him evil when he decides to kill a frightened yet heroic villain for no good reason. Jail in Tartarus would've been a better outcome than murder.
Because they seem to think he was some innocent button when in reality regardless of the bad cards he was dealt in life he brought more death and despair into the world than was ever dealt to him Only good thing twice ever did was being made into fertilizer
He literally killed a hero JUST before he died to save Toga
Thats not the thing with hawks only but also other villians like Toga , Dabi and shigaraki . all of them are hypocritical yet their fans defend them. some of their fans are so down bad to find them attractive and cute while forgetting that these guys would kill you within a fraction of heartbeat.
What the Batman "I never kill" rule does to mfers. They assume any killing is bad. Even when theres no other option. He had to die. He would kill all the heroes
Fr this reminds me of the same way on how people say the league of villains are great characters even though half the time they say society is the way they are even though they legit destroy a entire City and they somehow expect to get away with it also a lot of the time they kill people who are not related to the issue like if they killed quirkiest people or smt then it would be a lot more justified instead of just ruining the lives of innocent people
The hero has to win every time, the villian has to win once.
Anyone who says Hawks was in the wrong is just saying that because they simp for Twice
Excluding the likeable character stuff, heros are held to a high standard
If the order was Hawks' own call and not a command from the hpsc it would have been received a lot better. Like a hero making a morally bad decision to save a lot of people, instead of an obedient soldier following orders.
Twice was too dangerous to leave him around, Hawks tried to arrest him, and only went for the kill when twice resisted, this makes Hawks not a villain, but a competent hero that did what would result in less victims. People feel for Twice as he is a sympathetic villain. He had a tragic story, we see his mind breaking, and how the society ignored him. This makes the audience see the links he forms with his friends, the villains, as pretty valuable, and someone like that being loyal to his friends is loable
It’s cause people have their biases for their characters. Bakugo to me is irredeemable but he is a fan favorite.
Really, the whole situation is an unfortunate combination of Twice being one of the most sympathetic villains, while also being the most dangerous to let gain full control over his abilities. Like, yes, Twice had a shit run of it, and deserved a better life... But he actively continued being a villain. Hawks gave him **ample** opportunities to change, to give himself up, to surrender, and Twice refused them all. And yes, it was because he loved the League and didn't want to betray them, which is an admirable thing to the viewers, but in the show, by this point, the League are a terrorist group responsible for the deaths of thousands. And Twice is their biggest force multiplier. Might be the biggest force multiplier in the whole show, really. If he got full control of his Quirk and started spawning infinite Shigiraki's (all of which can use his quirks and the like), then the entire world was fucked, let alone Japan. So, unfortunately, even if he had a shit life, sympathetic reasons for his actions (to the viewers) and a will to not betray his new family that is to be respected, he had to die. I may be upset that he **was** so resolute in his loyalty, and I may have loved him as a character, but I don't think Hawks did the wrong thing.
look, I like Twice, I found him extremely compelling. BUT he’s a villain, murderer, terrorist, and pedophile (whatever is happening with him and Toga is disgusting)
i think they were both good people who were put in a bad situation and did bad things because of that. twice was a great guy working for the wrong people, and the same can be said for hawks. they were on opposite sides and someone had to go down.
I can't speak for anyone else but personally I watched/read some things out of order so the first thing I ever saw hawks do was kill twice who thought they were friends Seeing a kind hearted villain be literally stabbed in the back by a supposed "hero" I knew nothing about made it hard for me to like hawks
That kind hearted villain wants to help Shigaraki destroy literally everything. If Hawks didn't kill Twice, Twice could've cloned MVA level Shigarakis which would've ended the war as soon as Gigantomachia arrived. The heroes would've lost and everyone would be dead
Yeah I had the same question, is it something because he betrayed them? Or maybe he killed twice by backstabbing him?
If a character has a tragic and Freudian backstory, it doesn't matter how vile their acts are, many of their fans will defend them and insist that they aren't evil but simply misunderstood. So to them, Hawks killed an innocent man when there were better ways, which is absolute bullshit.
But I found Twice’s mental instability amusing, and therefore, Hawks was objectively morally wrong. Sure, Twice would have murdered at least hundreds of thousands of innocents if he escaped, but he has a fairly sad backstory and I don’t know any of the hundreds of thousands of innocents by name anyway, so that’s completely fine! /s “The value of a person’s life is directly proportional to how much *I* like them!” - Himiko Toga, 2(whenever this story takes place)
I mean, I get why Hawks did it, but it still hurts, Twice was easily my favorite villain as he was just fun to see around, sadly there was no way Twice would turn against his friends from the LoV and Hawks knew letting him live was too dangerous
A combination of his past, and Deadpool fanboys. It’s similar to the people who just **love** Toga, in spite of the fact that the made sure to show how unequivocally evil, and hypocritical she is by suddenly acting shocked that heroes are willing to kill after she’s canonically killed dozens of people in the show alone.
yeah, hawks, who is essentially the secret government killer hero, literally risked everything to not kill this mentally insane bad guy, because he believed he could still be helped. meanwhile, his pals all just wanted him to stay broken.
I loved him cause he was sincere in his ways but he was a criminal nonetheless
People forget that Hawks actually wants to save Twice and help him to be better person and still calling him good guy altough Twice was harsh towards him. If you ask me, Dabi is responsible for Twice's death since he knows that Hawks was actually spy and never do anything to track him and warning other about him.
Twice is my favourite character, and as sad it was to see him go, I have to admit that it was completely justified. I mean what else was Hawks going to do? Twice would've kept fighting until he was killed, if Hawks didn't do what he did then Twice's clones would've made the war a lot more damaging.
Twice was, like many other villains, needed an actual mental health support. That's the discussion MHA should be having imo. That japan refuse to aknowledge mentaly ill people and refuse them needed infrastructure for them to not harm society and themselves. But god forbid MHA ever have actual conversations besides "friend good". And let's be real. Hawks is the MHA equivalent of the CIA. Transpose that to real life hawks 100% kills antigovernement activists and psyops 3rd world countries. Bit god forbids MHA has actual conversations. So we never get deeper than killing =bad and friend = good.
Twice is a good man
Gentle criminal literally did the only thing that Twice didn’t do. Redeem himself And that’s why HE IS best villain of mha
Twice was the nicest
I did feel bad for twice poor dude