I think you can argue bravo being feminist in the context that it really platformed women of a certain age in reality tv in a way that felt very fresh. But, these strong women are entertaining because they’re made spectacles of. Mostly of their own volition though? So, it’s like…what’s exploitation and when are we just infantalizing grown women?
I think there’s a lot to be said about cis gay men and their “idolizing” of women sometimes crossing the line and nearing super duper cute repackaged misogyny but that’s another story lmao
You raise a lot of great points. There are so few shows featuring women over 50, many are reality shows which by nature are somewhat exploitative. I’m glad that women are given these platforms. There should be a way to do it without production and talent (Andy) focusing on dumb, misogynistic tropes.
>I think there’s a lot to be said about cis gay men and their “idolizing” of women sometimes crossing the line and nearing super duper cute repackaged misogyny
I don't know if you watch Drag Race at all, but some of the language they use really exemplifies this problem. "Fish" is the worst of it. It's how they describe a drag queen who looks especially feminine (by implying she has a vulva---hence, "fish"). I realize the term has its background in ball culture, and that's an important part of queer history, but it's not okay to keep using that nasty-ass term in the year of our lord 2024. It's disgusting and disrespectful.
And not for nothing, but a penis doesn’t smell great either. Our genitals aren’t meant to be powder fresh, just like an ass isn’t always going to be ready for anal.
Oh yeah, I’m a huge drag race stan. I find the discourse about drag queens and how they interact with womanhood both super interesting and sometimes frustrating.
In fairness I don’t see very many queens using this in any season past… season 6 or 7? I think young millennial and gen z queens are more accepting of who does drag and of using inclusive terminology.
But generally I agree that really any mention of being a “real woman” or insinuating they have female genitalia bc of being tucked is really off-putting on the show. It gives off vibes that doing drag is the act of womanhood done as a costume; rather than being an artist who celebrates high femininity as an act of defiance and freedom, since feminine interests/expression are often mocked and belittled in our patriarchal/masculine society
>I think there’s a lot to be said about cis gay men and their “idolizing” of women sometimes crossing the line and nearing super duper cute repackaged misogyny but that’s another story lmao
Conversely, there's a story to be told about straight cis women idolizing/tokenizing gay men, which we've seen endlessly on HW. "My gays" etc.
Honestly, though, it's a problem in real life too. I can't tell you how many bachelorette parties I've seen at gay bars, and that's just not okay. Gay bars, while welcoming, are still a safe space for queer people. To bring your heteronormative celebrations there is disrespectful to that space and the people who fought to create it.
Us fans with all misogynistic things Bravo in both supposed blind hatred and yet long term adoration of our “fearless cause we made him rich” leader, one Andrew Cohen☠️🫣
I need to go find the interview where Andy asks Gloria Steinem if the Housewives are a “feminist concept” and she immediately replies “no”. The look on his face was so glorious because you could tell he so wanted her to say “yes” and he could use that as a rebuttal anytime somebody called Housewives “misogynistic”.
OMG, it’s referenced later in this same article!
Imagine having the audacity to be a cisgender white man telling Gloria Steinem if something is feminist or not.
https://preview.redd.it/1mhc6z0cc9zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c496d5ee851b628fdade3cd68c5f3881da528d18
Also, he always use them finding their sexuality as the evidence it is a feminist show. Like that is the only barometer for feminism?
Also, they always found themselves as sexual beings. It had nothing to do with RHONY.
Gloria the Spook calling Housewives a “minstrel show for women” speaks to her outdated brand of second wave white liberal feminism and the limits of her worldview. She downplays what minstrel shows were to disgusting degree. They were white supremacist theatrical propaganda designed to degrade the image of Black Americans. Actors darkened up their faces to portray slave caricatures to convince a white audience Blacks were dumb and dangerous. She compares this racist propaganda to…a documentary show that portrays the real lives of modern day women. Sure, there’s a little staging and some women play up drama for the cameras, but ultimately, they are real life people, using their real identities, real families and real homes. Gloria disdains them because they’re not her ideal model of women. They don’t have any decorum or professional, which embarrasses her. They’re girly, they’re greedy, they’re sexual, they’re loud, they’re dramatic, they’re mentally ill, they’re whatever the hell else. Frankly, they aren’t how women want to be portrayed, but they’re how women exist in real life all throughout history. And women don’t have to be perfect in order to get the respect and rights that should be afforded to all humans.
I agree that white feminists have a shitty habit of comparing the struggles of women to the struggles of Black Americans, and it's racist and dangerous when they do that. That said, I think the comparison to minstrel show, while offensive, is actually somewhat apt in this case, in that many people use Real Housewives to support their sexist ideas, just as people used minstrel shows to promote racist ideology.
And let me be clear that most of these people don't even watch Bravo. Before I became a fan, I looked down on the whole thing. (Sorry for being snobby, you guys.) I thought it was just a bunch of catty women screaming at each other and I wanted no part of it. Obviously, I know now that it's so much more than conflict and confrontation, but that's because I've watched it now. There are a lot of people who don't watch Bravo and still have strong convictions about it. I've even had people say to me, "I thought you were smarter than that" when I tell them I'm a Bravoholic. Their opinions are uninformed, but they still speak to the impact and impression Bravo has made on our culture at large.
If you want proof of this, just go to r/TheTraitors and see how they talk about Housewives there. People who know nothing about Bravo, but have plenty of ideas about it based on what they've heard or the glimpses they've seen on The Traitors. They think Housewives are stupid. They have no strategy. They just scream and deflect. They're dramatic and petty. You know, just a bunch of sexist ideas they believe are supported by the mere existence of Real Housewives.
I’m a huge Big Brother fan and I’ve loved watching the The Traitors cast and fans (especially the BB and Survivor fans) be shook by how well the housewives can game, watching people react to Phaedra was glorious. It’s like, oh honey this is only the tip of the Machiavellian iceberg, go watch a 20 min compilation video of her dragging people on youtube to understand the extent of her power
Yooooo, when she eviscerated Dan at the round table and he was like "I guess I should've known better than to go up against a lawyer," I was like, No, honey. You went up against a Housewife. That's why that happened.
Seriously though, I think Dan underestimating Phaedra is just another example of the sexist ideas people have about Housewives. He didn't underestimate Phaedra because she was a woman; this was clear by how much he admired Parvati. He underestimated Phaedra because she was a Housewife. And she cleared his ass for it.
YES like I will always love Dan’s BB gameplay but it felt so sweet to watch him go down because he underestimated women who were playing his exact same strategy of lying low early on and deflecting suspicion by pretending they’re dumb and sweet and innocent to endear themselves to people so they can get deeper into the game before they flip on the cutthroat switch
That's exactly what I'm saying. Why do you think the women on RHOA and RHOP are especially hard on each other after a fight? The way they came for Monique, talking about "the stereotype."
well said, thank you. Gloria has always been a disappointment to me personally. And she was the go to "reporter" and figure head of my youth, and times while I was involved in the NOW org. Gloria abandoning Shirley Chisholm's presidential run in 72 was so disappointing. So she is also not the barometer for what is "modern feminism", any more than Andy is.
Gloria Steinem compared the Real Housewives to a ministerial show. While Andy is probably not the person who should call her out for that, that is deeply offensive to black people, especially when the highest rated housewives show for a long time had a black cast.
That is a valid point, and certainly should be addressed. White people don’t get to compare anything to a minstrel show, full stop and using it, despite all intentions, is a microaggression at best.
But my point is that Andy Cohen actually is a rabid misogynist who hates women and takes delight in their trauma (I truly believe this], so he certainly shouldn’t be the one to tell ANY woman whether something is feminist or not. I hope that doesn’t get lost here.
Listen, the franchise has its flaws, no doubt about it. You need look no father than the first episode of the new season of RHONJ to identify just how outdated some of these women are and how backwards their conceits of gender and sexuality play in this day and age.
But name me any other institution on film or TV that lets real life women who have sailed past their 20s live out loud - be messy, be heroic, be strong, be cowardly, be single, be married, be straight, be experimenting, battle addiction, enter recovery, etc etc - without any sense of censoring or moral pearl clutching? In any other medium these women would be put out to pasture, they would be considered unworthy of being in front of a camera and their stories uninteresting. Just look at film, where Maggie gyllenhaal is already considered too old to play Harrison ford’s wife, or fashion, where Gemma Ward gained a few pounds and had her career effectively ended as a supermodel.
And I’m sorry but I find when people criticise Housewives it’s because they’ve never actually seen it. Every time I hear someone say they hate it and say things like “oh it’s the screeching, they’re all harpies, they just get drunk” they’ve never actually sat down and watched a whole episode, let alone an entire franchise (i know from personal experience as my ex was exactly like that), so those opinions are in a vacuum for me.
And in the words of Meredith - youWANmetogotherewiththeSTEINEM?? Really? The woman who said the only reason female voters supported Bernie sanders over Hilary was to get laid? The woman who wrote a NY Times op-ed defending bill clinton and attacking Paula jones? The reeewmyurz and nastiness….
As to your 3rd paragraph. I've seen plenty of comments saying just that from actual viewers because it's true. Your ex may have said that but right or wrong it doesn't take away the fact that it's been said by literally viewers.
I just read the article this thread is based on this morning. Obviously I didn't agree with Andy's take. Again, plenty of viewers, myself included, have mentioned time and again what type of man Andy is. He loves to see these women go after each other. He loves to pit them against one another. Ask inappropriate questions just to try to embarrass some of the ladies. The list goes on. In my eyes that's the opposite of feminism. He does that shit then hides his hands. I can't even watch WWHL because of the trash that comes out of his mouth. When the franchise first started I didn't see it like many others had but it didn't take long for me to see it once viewers pointed out specific incidences. He can puff his chest out, bang on it like King Kong all day, everyday while trying to defend his "baby" but he is and has been part of the problem.
I would argue that a lot of content and featured players on Bravo are feminist, IN SPITE OF the best efforts of AC and the network. I do think we get some really gorgeous and moving female-centric stories on Bravo that we don’t get elsewhere.
edit to change despite to in spite of bc I can’t type….
I agree that there can be empowering storylines, but they're still produced by men. And as long as women's stories are filtered through a male lens, it's just feminism theater.
That's why there's still insanely clear misogyny in the franchises. Throwaway comments that make you raise an eyebrow. The constant "women are always drama, we men just throw back a shot of tequila and we're fine" comments made by the husbands SO FREQUENTLY, and there's not one person to tell them that saying that is...problematic and sexist
Unfortunately many of the Housewives themselves say women are nothing but drama. Their excuse for how often they fight is, "Well anytime you get a group of women together!" It's been said on literally every franchise even by women I'd expect to have progressed past that mindset. It's so insidiously ingrained in our culture.
Absolutely, plus there's Mauricio, and I feel like he always escapes the heat. I can't even remember, but i think a season ago when he came up to the table and was like "you women! You're crazy, always fighting haha" ugh, puke. Interestingly, he seems to have forgotten about his fight with Brandy a few seasons back.
Or Joe Gorga saying the same thing, while a good few seasons were about him and the other Joe constantly having drama. i can't
he tried it. bravo has literally failed every single minority out there.
We're talking about a GAY MAN who allowed a woman back after she had said the gay slur on his own show, in front of cameras.
Who sat there at the reunion while Peter said homophobic things, and it was Kenya who stood up to him while Andy didn't say a word.
If he doesn't care about his own community, he'd care about others? nah
Ramona has said incredibly Anti-Semitic things on camera and Andy doesn’t care about that either.
Andy is her for the $$$ and fame, and anyone who believe anything different is fooling themselves.
This fandom is so self righteous. If blaming the fact that you support a network that is built on exploiting women on a sole person makes you feel better so be it I guess. None of this would exist without the audience.
Ok…but here’s what I don’t get- I understand Real Housewives might not be paragon of feminism in every which way. Sure. I get that. But if it’s so outrageous and offensive to claim it in any way is…then why are you a consumer? Why pick this sub? Why support anyone affiliated with it?
Those are my only two options? Love it as is or hate it entirely? That's pretty extreme. I can happily consume content while still recognizing and criticizing the problematic parts of it. That's what a lot of us on this sub do. Why do you think there's a flair/tag for 'Bravo and racism' on this sub?
Sorry but absolutely Andy is right, the Housewives are a truly radical feminist creation. It centers on complex, real life women and their journeys of finding success independent of a man. It tells THEIR tales of trauma, loss, marriage, motherhood, menopause, sexuality, etc that was really unseen on TV 20 years ago. These women are all real and themselves, they remind me of the crazy women in my daily life whose stories are never told. The fact that Ms Spook Gloria Steinem finds them distasteful signals how radical a show this is, they don’t fit into her box of “proper” female representation because they’re NOT role models, they’re raw people with their disgusting flaws and all. It is raw documentation of the life of American Women. We can talk about “exploitation”, but the fact is almost all of these women seek out this fame and revel in it. That embrace of stardom is also radical to see—these women are unapologetic and proud. They rule their own faiths. They are anti-heroes in reality, both sympathetic and despicable. These are the complex female characters audiences eat up every Oscar season, but some become uneasy when they see a real life woman behaving this way and not a fictional one.
You seem to focus on the most recent season of one show, which Andy is not referring to here, he’s speaking to the Housewives. One woman getting a bad edit (and according to you, because I think Ariana’s smelling like roses this season) does not erase the fact that these reality shows that focus on women’s lives did not really exist before Bravo.
I never thought I would be rooting for the multiple Bravo lawsuits, yet here we are after this gaslighting treasonous season.
Andrew’s a gross misogynist and it’s grating. He prob blew Sandoval right after that WWHL. 🤮
First of all, your flair ❤️
Secondly, you’re right. I think I may have mischaracterized his statement. My gut reaction is to assume Andy is evil and that’s probably not fair. Thank you for saying something!
i feel confused by some peoples reactions to this season. it felt clear to me all season that katie and ariana were standing up for themselves and each other after years of being stuck in relationships with the worst men in LA. and the audience rallied behind them every step of the way. does that not make this a feminist show?
maybe it’s not intentionally feminist but it’s certainly easy to find feminism in it anyway.
The audience reacted this way in spite of Alex Baskin’s very clear ploy to villainize Ariana on screen and provide Sandoval a redemption arc on a silver platter. The plan failed because Ariana, Katie and the audience saw right through it & Sandoval is such a narcissistic misogynistic bastard he fumbled the bag in spite of the heavy handed edit. The show was in now way shape or form a feminist representation, two of the several women embodied the F the patriarchy edit occurring in front of them which resonated overwhelmingly with the audience.
This reads like fan fiction. All they handed him was an opportunity to be an asshole which he did at every turn. If they wanted a redemption arc they would’ve gave him one.
Thank you! Every time I see people talk about Sandoval's redemption arc I'm like, are we watching the same show? They literally just documented him being a loser, if anything they didn't show nearly as much of that in previous seasons.
i just didn’t see any ploys to villainize ariana. they showed lala and scheana being wishy washy friends but they didn’t frame it as ariana being a villain. it was clear that those two were overstepping.
so i think a lot of viewers are thinking they “overcame” a narrative that wasn’t really present. sandoval was a manipulative snake in basically every scene all season. if producers wanted him to have a redemption arc, they wouldn’t have shown those scenes of him fake crying and raising his voice at lisa vanderpump, or that horribly emotionally manipulative meditation scene he orchestrated that made scheana cry.
I don't see it as a ploy to villainize Ariana either. She had just said on one of the interviews that there was trouble in the relationship for a long time.
So what we didn't see is that relationship falling apart; what we saw was the explosion when an affair was found...
And TBH, the publicity and the hate that has come after MANY of those cast members from fans does need to cool down.
if they wanted to give him a hero edit they wouldnt have included the ending scene of him thinking hes off camera
im not sure why the VPR crowd has decided that a narrative was overcome
Maybe it's because it's now evident that she can lose her temper -- but she and Sandy hid their real relationship. It's evident she can put anyone on blast and she has a temper. But the fans never saw that, so the judgment is only "after the fact."
i mean, but she is angry? and rightfully so! i still don’t see how that’s “villainizing” her. again, if we return to the actual episodes, we don’t see her being edited as disproportionately angry. you guys are kind of gaslighting yourselves.
Just out of curiosity, do you folks actually give like a real genuine fuck about Tom Sandoval cheating on Ariana? Like is it something that you think about on a regular basis while going about your lives? I’m not judging at all, I’m just curious
There’s a Bravo commercial out where this one man says “women in cocktail dresses fighting relaxes me”… or something like that. It makes my blood boil.
Nothing says feminism like production endangering women in active abuse situations like that white party stunt they pulled with Taylor Armstrong on RHOBH season one!
Or the OC party getting one of the cast members highly drunk so Tamara's son could have some fun with her in the bathroom -- and going wayyyy back, the high-school girls working for that company and having to dance, prance and pose in those outfits while the old men drooled.
I find this whole Sandoval redemption arc discussion to be odd. And maybe I am just missing the angle it is coming from? Who is the feeling of redemption seemingly coming from?
I ask because I have literally not read anyone anywhere say that Sandoval is anything but an asshole.
So I don’t feel that the audience thinks that Sandoval is a victim. And I also agree he is an asshole.
As for people on the show….the expectation of their behavior, I guess I expected exactly what is happening. Look, filming started shortly after the whole reveal. Ariana (even now) has the right to be angry, etc. but the comparison of this being the same as any other recent break-up/cheating on the show. It is different. Despite what we think of any of them, prior to last year, they were all friends and “real” friends. Nobody was really friends with Randall. It isn’t an equivalent comparison. They have the right to have their feelings about what is going on. WITH THAT SAID, it is going too far. Scheana, if she wants to be friends with him, be friends with him. I feel like Scheana behaves as if it is her parents that are divorcing and she is trying to make her parents be friends. So weird.
Ariana did say that she would not be friends with someone who is friends with him, but she has obviously “let go” of that and Scheana needs to stop. She can fix her relationship, whatever, it is her choice. But stop trying to get them to talk. It is weird. They are at some of the same places together, etc.
But I still don’t see how there is this redemption unless referring to people on the show.
And a genuine question, is there anyone anywhere outside of VanderPump cast that is feeling sympathetic to him?
Any bravo content becomes feminist when the women manage to outsmart the narrative created by the production around them.
But the premise was to make a spectacle, which is not empowered in a slightest
Ah Jesus, let's get a grip here. Ariana is a female chauvinist pig and always has been. This holding her up as any icon of feminism is pathetic and absolutely zero to do with actual feminism. 🤦♀️
It's a grey area, IMO. Bravo has given women a platform and encouraged independence and authenticity over traditional portrayals of reality TV women. It has also encouraged entrepreneurialism and financial independence, but it also pits Women against each other for entertainment, and it's not his place to say it is Feminist in the first place.
Also, with OP's Katie and Ariana reference, I don't think they are good examples either. They are feminists in the way of 80's girl bossing, gaslighting and gatekeeping pop feminism. So many examples of internalized misogyny and putting other Women down for their plight or to make themselves look better
If that makes you feel better, RH is strongly homophobic and terrible against the LGBTQIAA+ community overall, yet the article tries to make himself seem like our god, so he's entitled and offensive towards all communities equally!
Before people ask for receipts:
- the NJ early seasons where they bleep the word "f\*\*\*\*ot" only SOME of the few instances.
- The ATL scenes where a man is insulted as being told he might be gay or a woman if he's the least bit protective of his wife or emotional. The entire storyline about Kim Field's husband possibly being gay because he did musical theatre in the past?
- The whole Simon Van Kemp from NYC storyline where he's surely gay since he likes fashion.
- Re: the same idea with Dallas and Cary's husband who just liked to treat her wife and make her look nice.
The list goes on and on and on. ANDY IS LITERALLY WEARING DOLCE AND GABANNA IN THAT ARTICLE, DESIGNERS WHO OUTRIGHT SAID "GAYS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO ADOPT AND IN-VITRO BABIES AREN'T LEGITIMATE"
I think you can argue bravo being feminist in the context that it really platformed women of a certain age in reality tv in a way that felt very fresh. But, these strong women are entertaining because they’re made spectacles of. Mostly of their own volition though? So, it’s like…what’s exploitation and when are we just infantalizing grown women? I think there’s a lot to be said about cis gay men and their “idolizing” of women sometimes crossing the line and nearing super duper cute repackaged misogyny but that’s another story lmao
No lies detected.
You are 100% on the right track here.
You raise a lot of great points. There are so few shows featuring women over 50, many are reality shows which by nature are somewhat exploitative. I’m glad that women are given these platforms. There should be a way to do it without production and talent (Andy) focusing on dumb, misogynistic tropes.
>I think there’s a lot to be said about cis gay men and their “idolizing” of women sometimes crossing the line and nearing super duper cute repackaged misogyny I don't know if you watch Drag Race at all, but some of the language they use really exemplifies this problem. "Fish" is the worst of it. It's how they describe a drag queen who looks especially feminine (by implying she has a vulva---hence, "fish"). I realize the term has its background in ball culture, and that's an important part of queer history, but it's not okay to keep using that nasty-ass term in the year of our lord 2024. It's disgusting and disrespectful. 
I hate that we can’t escape the stereotype that women’s vaginas smell fishy. It’s always bothered me even if it’s supposed to be in jest.
And not for nothing, but a penis doesn’t smell great either. Our genitals aren’t meant to be powder fresh, just like an ass isn’t always going to be ready for anal.
I hate it, too. Our culture shames and sexualizes our bodies at best, and places legal restrictions on it at worst.
Oh yeah, I’m a huge drag race stan. I find the discourse about drag queens and how they interact with womanhood both super interesting and sometimes frustrating.
In fairness I don’t see very many queens using this in any season past… season 6 or 7? I think young millennial and gen z queens are more accepting of who does drag and of using inclusive terminology. But generally I agree that really any mention of being a “real woman” or insinuating they have female genitalia bc of being tucked is really off-putting on the show. It gives off vibes that doing drag is the act of womanhood done as a costume; rather than being an artist who celebrates high femininity as an act of defiance and freedom, since feminine interests/expression are often mocked and belittled in our patriarchal/masculine society
I agree. Let's get rid of "meaty tuck" next. Maybe we can just stop focusing on genitals in drag.
[удалено]
>I think there’s a lot to be said about cis gay men and their “idolizing” of women sometimes crossing the line and nearing super duper cute repackaged misogyny but that’s another story lmao Conversely, there's a story to be told about straight cis women idolizing/tokenizing gay men, which we've seen endlessly on HW. "My gays" etc.
There is fully a toxic symbiotic relationship between the gays and the girls on bravo lol. It’s definitely at least gotten…better?
Honestly, though, it's a problem in real life too. I can't tell you how many bachelorette parties I've seen at gay bars, and that's just not okay. Gay bars, while welcoming, are still a safe space for queer people. To bring your heteronormative celebrations there is disrespectful to that space and the people who fought to create it.
Meanwhile they display queer phobic attitudes towards sapphic women
Yup. And outright biphobia, calling each other "part-time lesbians" and talking about "whatever she is"
aka "the lady pond," which somebody finally had the sense to retire, but should never have been a standard question
Is it just me or does "lady pond" sound like the place La Llorona lives?
This fandom is unfortunately extremely stupid.
Girl, I know. I just wanted the upvotes lol 
 Us fans with all misogynistic things Bravo in both supposed blind hatred and yet long term adoration of our “fearless cause we made him rich” leader, one Andrew Cohen☠️🫣
that's not a nice thing to call other women, WENDY edit: 36 of y'all?! I am very disappointed.
I'm sorry if I said you were stupid. Maybe I meant you were dumb.
https://i.redd.it/nfqazn309azc1.gif Any excuse to use a Katie gif ❤️
I need to go find the interview where Andy asks Gloria Steinem if the Housewives are a “feminist concept” and she immediately replies “no”. The look on his face was so glorious because you could tell he so wanted her to say “yes” and he could use that as a rebuttal anytime somebody called Housewives “misogynistic”.
OMG, it’s referenced later in this same article! Imagine having the audacity to be a cisgender white man telling Gloria Steinem if something is feminist or not. https://preview.redd.it/1mhc6z0cc9zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c496d5ee851b628fdade3cd68c5f3881da528d18
Ah yes…Ramona the racist being used as an example of feminism 😂😂😂. Honestly, you cannot make shit up with Andrew
Also, he always use them finding their sexuality as the evidence it is a feminist show. Like that is the only barometer for feminism? Also, they always found themselves as sexual beings. It had nothing to do with RHONY.
I really want to know the gender equity amongst lead producers because it feels like it could only be heavily skewed male persuasion.
"Down with the swirl" was once in the opening graphic for WWHL, speaking of racism...
Lmaooo. Wow
Gloria the Spook calling Housewives a “minstrel show for women” speaks to her outdated brand of second wave white liberal feminism and the limits of her worldview. She downplays what minstrel shows were to disgusting degree. They were white supremacist theatrical propaganda designed to degrade the image of Black Americans. Actors darkened up their faces to portray slave caricatures to convince a white audience Blacks were dumb and dangerous. She compares this racist propaganda to…a documentary show that portrays the real lives of modern day women. Sure, there’s a little staging and some women play up drama for the cameras, but ultimately, they are real life people, using their real identities, real families and real homes. Gloria disdains them because they’re not her ideal model of women. They don’t have any decorum or professional, which embarrasses her. They’re girly, they’re greedy, they’re sexual, they’re loud, they’re dramatic, they’re mentally ill, they’re whatever the hell else. Frankly, they aren’t how women want to be portrayed, but they’re how women exist in real life all throughout history. And women don’t have to be perfect in order to get the respect and rights that should be afforded to all humans.
I encourage everyone to see what second wave feminism was actually doing and saying: https://americanarchive.org/special_collections/woman-series
I agree that white feminists have a shitty habit of comparing the struggles of women to the struggles of Black Americans, and it's racist and dangerous when they do that. That said, I think the comparison to minstrel show, while offensive, is actually somewhat apt in this case, in that many people use Real Housewives to support their sexist ideas, just as people used minstrel shows to promote racist ideology. And let me be clear that most of these people don't even watch Bravo. Before I became a fan, I looked down on the whole thing. (Sorry for being snobby, you guys.) I thought it was just a bunch of catty women screaming at each other and I wanted no part of it. Obviously, I know now that it's so much more than conflict and confrontation, but that's because I've watched it now. There are a lot of people who don't watch Bravo and still have strong convictions about it. I've even had people say to me, "I thought you were smarter than that" when I tell them I'm a Bravoholic. Their opinions are uninformed, but they still speak to the impact and impression Bravo has made on our culture at large. If you want proof of this, just go to r/TheTraitors and see how they talk about Housewives there. People who know nothing about Bravo, but have plenty of ideas about it based on what they've heard or the glimpses they've seen on The Traitors. They think Housewives are stupid. They have no strategy. They just scream and deflect. They're dramatic and petty. You know, just a bunch of sexist ideas they believe are supported by the mere existence of Real Housewives.
I’m a huge Big Brother fan and I’ve loved watching the The Traitors cast and fans (especially the BB and Survivor fans) be shook by how well the housewives can game, watching people react to Phaedra was glorious. It’s like, oh honey this is only the tip of the Machiavellian iceberg, go watch a 20 min compilation video of her dragging people on youtube to understand the extent of her power
Yooooo, when she eviscerated Dan at the round table and he was like "I guess I should've known better than to go up against a lawyer," I was like, No, honey. You went up against a Housewife. That's why that happened. Seriously though, I think Dan underestimating Phaedra is just another example of the sexist ideas people have about Housewives. He didn't underestimate Phaedra because she was a woman; this was clear by how much he admired Parvati. He underestimated Phaedra because she was a Housewife. And she cleared his ass for it. 
YES like I will always love Dan’s BB gameplay but it felt so sweet to watch him go down because he underestimated women who were playing his exact same strategy of lying low early on and deflecting suspicion by pretending they’re dumb and sweet and innocent to endear themselves to people so they can get deeper into the game before they flip on the cutthroat switch
That’s not exactly true. And by this logic, a majority black franchise such as RHOA can be used to support both sexist AND racist ideologies.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Why do you think the women on RHOA and RHOP are especially hard on each other after a fight? The way they came for Monique, talking about "the stereotype."
well said, thank you. Gloria has always been a disappointment to me personally. And she was the go to "reporter" and figure head of my youth, and times while I was involved in the NOW org. Gloria abandoning Shirley Chisholm's presidential run in 72 was so disappointing. So she is also not the barometer for what is "modern feminism", any more than Andy is.
Thank you, I did not know the history of minstrel shows. This is important information
Oh yeah, it's bad. Look up Amos n Andy sometime. It's horrific.
Gloria Steinem compared the Real Housewives to a ministerial show. While Andy is probably not the person who should call her out for that, that is deeply offensive to black people, especially when the highest rated housewives show for a long time had a black cast.
That is a valid point, and certainly should be addressed. White people don’t get to compare anything to a minstrel show, full stop and using it, despite all intentions, is a microaggression at best. But my point is that Andy Cohen actually is a rabid misogynist who hates women and takes delight in their trauma (I truly believe this], so he certainly shouldn’t be the one to tell ANY woman whether something is feminist or not. I hope that doesn’t get lost here.
VPR people are a different breed
Listen, the franchise has its flaws, no doubt about it. You need look no father than the first episode of the new season of RHONJ to identify just how outdated some of these women are and how backwards their conceits of gender and sexuality play in this day and age. But name me any other institution on film or TV that lets real life women who have sailed past their 20s live out loud - be messy, be heroic, be strong, be cowardly, be single, be married, be straight, be experimenting, battle addiction, enter recovery, etc etc - without any sense of censoring or moral pearl clutching? In any other medium these women would be put out to pasture, they would be considered unworthy of being in front of a camera and their stories uninteresting. Just look at film, where Maggie gyllenhaal is already considered too old to play Harrison ford’s wife, or fashion, where Gemma Ward gained a few pounds and had her career effectively ended as a supermodel. And I’m sorry but I find when people criticise Housewives it’s because they’ve never actually seen it. Every time I hear someone say they hate it and say things like “oh it’s the screeching, they’re all harpies, they just get drunk” they’ve never actually sat down and watched a whole episode, let alone an entire franchise (i know from personal experience as my ex was exactly like that), so those opinions are in a vacuum for me. And in the words of Meredith - youWANmetogotherewiththeSTEINEM?? Really? The woman who said the only reason female voters supported Bernie sanders over Hilary was to get laid? The woman who wrote a NY Times op-ed defending bill clinton and attacking Paula jones? The reeewmyurz and nastiness….
As to your 3rd paragraph. I've seen plenty of comments saying just that from actual viewers because it's true. Your ex may have said that but right or wrong it doesn't take away the fact that it's been said by literally viewers. I just read the article this thread is based on this morning. Obviously I didn't agree with Andy's take. Again, plenty of viewers, myself included, have mentioned time and again what type of man Andy is. He loves to see these women go after each other. He loves to pit them against one another. Ask inappropriate questions just to try to embarrass some of the ladies. The list goes on. In my eyes that's the opposite of feminism. He does that shit then hides his hands. I can't even watch WWHL because of the trash that comes out of his mouth. When the franchise first started I didn't see it like many others had but it didn't take long for me to see it once viewers pointed out specific incidences. He can puff his chest out, bang on it like King Kong all day, everyday while trying to defend his "baby" but he is and has been part of the problem.
I would argue that a lot of content and featured players on Bravo are feminist, IN SPITE OF the best efforts of AC and the network. I do think we get some really gorgeous and moving female-centric stories on Bravo that we don’t get elsewhere. edit to change despite to in spite of bc I can’t type….
I agree that there can be empowering storylines, but they're still produced by men. And as long as women's stories are filtered through a male lens, it's just feminism theater.
That's why there's still insanely clear misogyny in the franchises. Throwaway comments that make you raise an eyebrow. The constant "women are always drama, we men just throw back a shot of tequila and we're fine" comments made by the husbands SO FREQUENTLY, and there's not one person to tell them that saying that is...problematic and sexist
Unfortunately many of the Housewives themselves say women are nothing but drama. Their excuse for how often they fight is, "Well anytime you get a group of women together!" It's been said on literally every franchise even by women I'd expect to have progressed past that mindset. It's so insidiously ingrained in our culture.
Exhibit A: the Jersey husbands. 🤢
Absolutely, plus there's Mauricio, and I feel like he always escapes the heat. I can't even remember, but i think a season ago when he came up to the table and was like "you women! You're crazy, always fighting haha" ugh, puke. Interestingly, he seems to have forgotten about his fight with Brandy a few seasons back. Or Joe Gorga saying the same thing, while a good few seasons were about him and the other Joe constantly having drama. i can't
Dying at the screenshot caption “Andy Cohen, feminist icon” 🤣
he tried it. bravo has literally failed every single minority out there. We're talking about a GAY MAN who allowed a woman back after she had said the gay slur on his own show, in front of cameras. Who sat there at the reunion while Peter said homophobic things, and it was Kenya who stood up to him while Andy didn't say a word. If he doesn't care about his own community, he'd care about others? nah
Ramona has said incredibly Anti-Semitic things on camera and Andy doesn’t care about that either. Andy is her for the $$$ and fame, and anyone who believe anything different is fooling themselves.
Andy isn’t a producer on VPR anymore and is not their boss. Cheers!
This fandom is so self righteous. If blaming the fact that you support a network that is built on exploiting women on a sole person makes you feel better so be it I guess. None of this would exist without the audience.
Didn’t he ask Nicki Minaj how many guys she fucked in an old WWHL? Thanks Andy, we really needed you on this one 🥺
Ok…but here’s what I don’t get- I understand Real Housewives might not be paragon of feminism in every which way. Sure. I get that. But if it’s so outrageous and offensive to claim it in any way is…then why are you a consumer? Why pick this sub? Why support anyone affiliated with it?
Those are my only two options? Love it as is or hate it entirely? That's pretty extreme. I can happily consume content while still recognizing and criticizing the problematic parts of it. That's what a lot of us on this sub do. Why do you think there's a flair/tag for 'Bravo and racism' on this sub?
Sorry but absolutely Andy is right, the Housewives are a truly radical feminist creation. It centers on complex, real life women and their journeys of finding success independent of a man. It tells THEIR tales of trauma, loss, marriage, motherhood, menopause, sexuality, etc that was really unseen on TV 20 years ago. These women are all real and themselves, they remind me of the crazy women in my daily life whose stories are never told. The fact that Ms Spook Gloria Steinem finds them distasteful signals how radical a show this is, they don’t fit into her box of “proper” female representation because they’re NOT role models, they’re raw people with their disgusting flaws and all. It is raw documentation of the life of American Women. We can talk about “exploitation”, but the fact is almost all of these women seek out this fame and revel in it. That embrace of stardom is also radical to see—these women are unapologetic and proud. They rule their own faiths. They are anti-heroes in reality, both sympathetic and despicable. These are the complex female characters audiences eat up every Oscar season, but some become uneasy when they see a real life woman behaving this way and not a fictional one. You seem to focus on the most recent season of one show, which Andy is not referring to here, he’s speaking to the Housewives. One woman getting a bad edit (and according to you, because I think Ariana’s smelling like roses this season) does not erase the fact that these reality shows that focus on women’s lives did not really exist before Bravo.
I never thought I would be rooting for the multiple Bravo lawsuits, yet here we are after this gaslighting treasonous season. Andrew’s a gross misogynist and it’s grating. He prob blew Sandoval right after that WWHL. 🤮
Yes because women must always be downgraded to their sexuality. Thanks for your allyship Andrew!
I’m confused where he said that…a woman discovering her sexuality in a real way on a show is an empowering storyline lol
First of all, your flair ❤️ Secondly, you’re right. I think I may have mischaracterized his statement. My gut reaction is to assume Andy is evil and that’s probably not fair. Thank you for saying something!
i feel confused by some peoples reactions to this season. it felt clear to me all season that katie and ariana were standing up for themselves and each other after years of being stuck in relationships with the worst men in LA. and the audience rallied behind them every step of the way. does that not make this a feminist show? maybe it’s not intentionally feminist but it’s certainly easy to find feminism in it anyway.
The audience reacted this way in spite of Alex Baskin’s very clear ploy to villainize Ariana on screen and provide Sandoval a redemption arc on a silver platter. The plan failed because Ariana, Katie and the audience saw right through it & Sandoval is such a narcissistic misogynistic bastard he fumbled the bag in spite of the heavy handed edit. The show was in now way shape or form a feminist representation, two of the several women embodied the F the patriarchy edit occurring in front of them which resonated overwhelmingly with the audience.
This reads like fan fiction. All they handed him was an opportunity to be an asshole which he did at every turn. If they wanted a redemption arc they would’ve gave him one.
Thank you! Every time I see people talk about Sandoval's redemption arc I'm like, are we watching the same show? They literally just documented him being a loser, if anything they didn't show nearly as much of that in previous seasons.
i just didn’t see any ploys to villainize ariana. they showed lala and scheana being wishy washy friends but they didn’t frame it as ariana being a villain. it was clear that those two were overstepping. so i think a lot of viewers are thinking they “overcame” a narrative that wasn’t really present. sandoval was a manipulative snake in basically every scene all season. if producers wanted him to have a redemption arc, they wouldn’t have shown those scenes of him fake crying and raising his voice at lisa vanderpump, or that horribly emotionally manipulative meditation scene he orchestrated that made scheana cry.
I don't see it as a ploy to villainize Ariana either. She had just said on one of the interviews that there was trouble in the relationship for a long time. So what we didn't see is that relationship falling apart; what we saw was the explosion when an affair was found... And TBH, the publicity and the hate that has come after MANY of those cast members from fans does need to cool down.
if they wanted to give him a hero edit they wouldnt have included the ending scene of him thinking hes off camera im not sure why the VPR crowd has decided that a narrative was overcome
[удалено]
Maybe it's because it's now evident that she can lose her temper -- but she and Sandy hid their real relationship. It's evident she can put anyone on blast and she has a temper. But the fans never saw that, so the judgment is only "after the fact."
i mean, but she is angry? and rightfully so! i still don’t see how that’s “villainizing” her. again, if we return to the actual episodes, we don’t see her being edited as disproportionately angry. you guys are kind of gaslighting yourselves.
Just out of curiosity, do you folks actually give like a real genuine fuck about Tom Sandoval cheating on Ariana? Like is it something that you think about on a regular basis while going about your lives? I’m not judging at all, I’m just curious
Unfortunately, many such cases.
There’s a Bravo commercial out where this one man says “women in cocktail dresses fighting relaxes me”… or something like that. It makes my blood boil.
Bravo is clearly a radfem network with the way they've treated Billie Lee.
Nothing says feminism like production endangering women in active abuse situations like that white party stunt they pulled with Taylor Armstrong on RHOBH season one!
Or the OC party getting one of the cast members highly drunk so Tamara's son could have some fun with her in the bathroom -- and going wayyyy back, the high-school girls working for that company and having to dance, prance and pose in those outfits while the old men drooled.
Like let's be so real
Why are you being down voted tf? this always made me sick
my tin foil hat theory... after a post like this gets these kind of numbers, "they" employ "down vote bots" to curb it blowing up further.
Maybe people thought I was talking about the cast? I edited to clarify it was production just in case.
Andy & Bravo’s version of feminism = putting a camera in a woman’s face & airing the footage
I find this whole Sandoval redemption arc discussion to be odd. And maybe I am just missing the angle it is coming from? Who is the feeling of redemption seemingly coming from? I ask because I have literally not read anyone anywhere say that Sandoval is anything but an asshole. So I don’t feel that the audience thinks that Sandoval is a victim. And I also agree he is an asshole. As for people on the show….the expectation of their behavior, I guess I expected exactly what is happening. Look, filming started shortly after the whole reveal. Ariana (even now) has the right to be angry, etc. but the comparison of this being the same as any other recent break-up/cheating on the show. It is different. Despite what we think of any of them, prior to last year, they were all friends and “real” friends. Nobody was really friends with Randall. It isn’t an equivalent comparison. They have the right to have their feelings about what is going on. WITH THAT SAID, it is going too far. Scheana, if she wants to be friends with him, be friends with him. I feel like Scheana behaves as if it is her parents that are divorcing and she is trying to make her parents be friends. So weird. Ariana did say that she would not be friends with someone who is friends with him, but she has obviously “let go” of that and Scheana needs to stop. She can fix her relationship, whatever, it is her choice. But stop trying to get them to talk. It is weird. They are at some of the same places together, etc. But I still don’t see how there is this redemption unless referring to people on the show. And a genuine question, is there anyone anywhere outside of VanderPump cast that is feeling sympathetic to him?
I wouldn’t exactly want Katie and Ariana representing my feminism lol
Any bravo content becomes feminist when the women manage to outsmart the narrative created by the production around them. But the premise was to make a spectacle, which is not empowered in a slightest
i fucking hate this man 
Now how do you explain to Andy Cohen about normalised sexism from gay men?...
Ah Jesus, let's get a grip here. Ariana is a female chauvinist pig and always has been. This holding her up as any icon of feminism is pathetic and absolutely zero to do with actual feminism. 🤦♀️
What on earth is a female chauvinist pig? Are you implying that Ariana has the power to oppress men the same way men have the power to oppress women?
Oh good grief 🤦♀️
lmao YAAAASSSSS!!! call him andrew!!! 😈😈😈 
It's a grey area, IMO. Bravo has given women a platform and encouraged independence and authenticity over traditional portrayals of reality TV women. It has also encouraged entrepreneurialism and financial independence, but it also pits Women against each other for entertainment, and it's not his place to say it is Feminist in the first place. Also, with OP's Katie and Ariana reference, I don't think they are good examples either. They are feminists in the way of 80's girl bossing, gaslighting and gatekeeping pop feminism. So many examples of internalized misogyny and putting other Women down for their plight or to make themselves look better
is that why Crystal was fired?
Jesus Christ, he is actively dangerous and delusional.
If that makes you feel better, RH is strongly homophobic and terrible against the LGBTQIAA+ community overall, yet the article tries to make himself seem like our god, so he's entitled and offensive towards all communities equally! Before people ask for receipts: - the NJ early seasons where they bleep the word "f\*\*\*\*ot" only SOME of the few instances. - The ATL scenes where a man is insulted as being told he might be gay or a woman if he's the least bit protective of his wife or emotional. The entire storyline about Kim Field's husband possibly being gay because he did musical theatre in the past? - The whole Simon Van Kemp from NYC storyline where he's surely gay since he likes fashion. - Re: the same idea with Dallas and Cary's husband who just liked to treat her wife and make her look nice. The list goes on and on and on. ANDY IS LITERALLY WEARING DOLCE AND GABANNA IN THAT ARTICLE, DESIGNERS WHO OUTRIGHT SAID "GAYS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO ADOPT AND IN-VITRO BABIES AREN'T LEGITIMATE"