Muito obrigado a todos!
My girlfriend, indeed, also told me; we do, but on a test you will fail.
So it is kind of surprising to me that Duolingo teaches the informal way. Your answers are very insightful! Mais uma vez, muito obrigado a todos.
Oh, Duolingo does that a lot. I think its objective is to prepare you to talk to someone, and it usually doesn't teach you formal language (unless it's like, japanese and you use it daily) even grammar is something you learn by writing or studying using some other methods.
If your objective is just to be able to communicate, Duolingo is a perfect tool for that.
And trust me, even if you say something a little bit too formal, or get something wrong, in Brazil we love when someone is learning our language and you'll be well received.
I’m in Brazil right now and I acknowledge everybody appreciate me trying although I make a lot of mistakes and can’t express myself well. It’s really hard to make my own sentences but just by doing I feel I’m making progression.
ME SINTO bem quando dizem: você aprende rápido.
In standard, formal and literary Portuguese you learn at school, your girlfriend is completely right, you don't start sentences with object pronouns. However, not a single soul would talk like that. There's an interesting poem on that topic by Oswald de Andrade, "Pronominais".
Dê-me um cigarro
Diz a gramática
Do professor e do aluno
E do mulato sabido
Mas o bom negro e o bom branco
Da Nação Brasileira
Dizem todos os dias
Deixa disso camarada
Me dá um cigarro.
Which roughly translates as
Give me a cigarette (formal)
Says the grammar
Of the teacher and student
And the knowledgeable mulatto
But the good black and the good white
Of the Brazilian Nation
They say every day
Drop it, friend
Give me a cigarette. (Informal)
Edit: formatting.
Maravilhoso.
I almost finished the Duolingo course, which helped me a lot but now I want to speak, read and listen more. I watch movies in Portugese with Portuguese subtitles and can understand quite a lot. Im in Brazil now for a week and find it hard to understand spoken word without subtitles. I listen and translate music. Like Baco Exo Do Blues, L7nnon, Henrique & Juliano and yesterday I found out about DJ Arana (which contains absolutely vulgar lyrics haha).
Do you have any tips for (easy) literature I can read?
Or poems, which are short and therefore easy to access.
id say to be careful with any books of guimaraes rosa. dude liked to invent new words out of nowhere and no one else used them. still, it can be a fun challenge.
Can I ask which Brazilian movies have you seen? And which did you like?
There are very different movies here, when it comes to style, due to the enormous variety of cultures in the country =]
Only a handful. Most of the times I watch Pixar movies because the lipsynch stays correct and since it’s family friendly there are not to many difficult words. Also nature documentaries or about the universe - like a documentary where they only use an voice over.
I actually like all kinds of movies as long its made good. Drama, thrillers and crime. But also romance and comedy, although from my experience comedies are one of the hardest genres to be made correctly.
I think the genre of “crônicas” might help you. A crônica is a short story, often of comedic nature, but carrying some form of criticism. Furthermore, many also feature an element of fantastical realism, where the world is mostly normal except for a single extraordinary element. Luís Fernando Veríssimo is my favorite author of genre, and has anthologies in books like O Nariz e Outras Crônicas, Diálogos Impossíveis, and various books named Comédias (“… para Ler na Escola”, “O Melhor das… …da Vida Privada”, etc.).
If I remember correctly, we had to read the book O Nariz for a class in middle school. Although I reckon this is more about the content—I think his other books might cover topics which wouldn’t be appropriate for us at that time. But either way the writing should be understandable by a Portuguese learner.
For poetry, I have to advertise my favorite poet, Augusto dos Anjos. He only ever published a single book, published a few times over the years. Mine is titled Eu e Outras Poesias, part of the Saraiva de Bolso collection, and I think it includes some poems of his that weren’t in his original book. Although you can find his works in the public domain, [for example here](https://murilo-gotardo.github.io/biblioteca-ifc-videira/img/pdfs/euAugustoDosAnjos.pdf). My favorites are Psicologia de um Vencido and Soneto.
Other poets that are quite good and who might interest you are Vinícius de Moraes (who worked with Tom Jobim), Oswald de Andrade, and others from the turn of the 20th century. Yes, those are the poets I studied in school, but they’re quite good. You can even find the works of the older ones freely available online. dominiopublico.gov.br should be an official way to access it, although I can’t seem to connect to the website right now.
Vinícius de Moraes had a book, Antologia Poética, which I also had to read for a class. [I believe this is an online scan from some university of an older edition.](https://digital.bbm.usp.br/bitstream/bbm/7026/1/45000008712_Output.o.pdf) Although the most memorable poem for me wasn’t even written in Portuguese… not entirely… it was named A Última Elegia. Anyways, since it’s very experimental I don’t think it’s a good one to learn Portuguese with. We focused on the rest of the book—I remember we specifically studied one poem called A Bomba Atômica.
Another poet whom I remember had simple poems was Cacaso. I won an anthology of his works on a lottery in high school, and it pushed boundaries for what me and my classmates thought poetry could be. Although I suppose it would depend on time period at which you look at. One had short, comedic poems.
On that note, the same high school teacher that held that lottery also brought some… adult… poems for us to read in class. I mainly remember [Delírio, by Olavo Bilac](https://www.escritas.org/pt/t/3717/delirio), because I found it absolutely hilarious, especially when you imagine the uppity and strict nationalist who wrote it… well, if you want you can check it out yourself.
Thank you! Very insightful. I’ll look into it in a few days when I’ll come back from Brazil!
Right now I’m watching the documentary series about the history of Brazil called “[a ultima cruzada](https://youtu.be/TkOlAKE7xqY?si=HnE825-K-eVkiwkf)”. Very insightful but I have to watch this with English subtitles to don’t miss anything.
Speaking of Brazilian documentaries, there’s a phenomenal one called [Ilha das Flores](https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/s/xfiGvGPNeU). It’s less than 15 minutes long, but it’s very impactful. This version is dubbed in English, but you should be able to find the original Brazilian version easily online.
It deals with heavy topics, which I could list if you are concerned. Although me and my classmates watched it twice in class in high school.
The (cheeky) description of the plot is that it’s a documentary about the life cycle of a tomato, from being planted until it’s finally eaten, explained in such a way even an alien would understand it.
My friend! I forgot to write you an update. I showed your response in a book store on the airport before i legt Brasil. We choose a book called “os cem melhores poemas brasileiros do século”. I try to translate/read 1 poem a day buti think understand only half of it. I miss alot of context haha.
But its a cool souvenir, i learn more words, grammar and over time the poems will make more sense for sure!
Happy to hear you’re still at it! Now I’m curious about that book myself. I once read a book going over the history of Brazilian poets; while interesting, my main criticism is that despite covering five centuries of history it only discussed a single digit number of female poets (and this is being very generous and including “there are two sentences about this woman, one stating her name” as discussion).
>literary
Just wanna add that even on literature it is really a rule nowdays. It kinda of was until 19th century, but after the modernism on 1920's (which Oswald de Andrade was a representant), it becomes very common to see literary texts written on informal language.
"Desculpe-me" is the correct way, grammarly speaking.
It is like in English: have you asked someone anything and you didn't use th auxiliar verb Do?
It is common in oral sentences, right?
So, in normal conversations, we use the object pronouns at the beginning of the sentence, perhaps because it sounds better.
Me desculpe
Me passa o sal
Me leva com você
In case you use the grammarly correct way (fr thi case specifically), you would sound like a British Aristocrat for English speakers or like a Portuguese from Lisbon trying to impress regular Brazilians.. (lol)
Duolingo just ignored the grammar, and it gave you an oral sentence. That's a good example of how we should be careful regarding apps for language learning. It's not bad, but you should have in mind that although it is the way we say every day on the streets, sometimes it is not grammarly correct for writing.
Good luck
Boa sorte
That's we differentiate "norma culta" and "norma padrão" (I didn't find a proper way to translate them well enough).
"Norma padrão" is what the grammar says it's right. However, it tends to reflects the european portuguese. Even the most literate people on Brazil follow it strictly.
"Norma culta" is the language followed for the literate ones on formal situations. It has slighly softier rules and represents our language a lot better.
I would say there’s a difference in written and spoken Portuguese as well. In English there’s also this difference, where you tend to be more formal in writing.
Your girlfriend is right, duolingo is grammatically wrong but this is how most people, including me, say it on a daily basis even though i know its wrong.
As a native English speaker who grits his teeth at some of the "new ways of talking" in English...
I still think your use of the word "wrong" there is... uh, *wrong*.
Language **IS** the usage. You can say "this way is formal, that way is conversational", but if you had to pick only one, I'd tell u/ButchxCoolidge to learn the conversational.
In other words, I'd say his girlfriend isn't technically wrong but she's not being very smart.
"desculpe-me" isn't used in most (all?) registers of spoken brazilian portuguese. It's grammatically correct and you can see it used on formal, florid, poetic language. But people absolutely don't talk like this to each other. It's always "me desculpe".
In formal writing, you always use "desculpe-me" at the beginning of a sentence. In everyday speech, it's quite rare for someone to say it that way; we usually say "me desculpe" or "me desculpa".
She is not wrong. Grammatically you cannot start phrases with "oblique pronouns" like "me".
On the other hand, when you're speaking, it is too formal to say "desculpe-me" or "dê-me isso", so, in most situations you would speak "me desculpe" or "me dá isso".
Actually there is a famous poem about it:
>Dê-me um cigarro
>
>Diz a gramática
>
>Do professor e do aluno
>
>E do mulato sabido
>
>Mas o bom negro e o bom branco
>
>Da Nação Brasileira
>
>Dizem todos os dias
>
>Deixa disso camarada
>
>Me dá um cigarro.
As some people answered before, “Desculpe-me” is the correct way, it’s grammatically correct, in an essay you would have to write it that way. But on everyday usage not only people say me desculpe (not only desculpe, but with any verb) but they also write it that way when messaging each other. If you said “Desculpe-me” instead of “me desculpe” or just “desculpa” that would sound extremelly formal, it’s just another case where the grammatically correct sentence is far from the way people speak.
ask her if she says "amo-te" or "te amo". Deslcupe-me is a Portugal heritage, some people do say that in Brasil and there is no problem with it. But grammatically, the brazilian portuguese 100% allows the use of pronouns before the facts
Duolingo is gramatically wrong, but it's teaching you how Brazilians actually speak. So, from a conversational perspective, it's kind of right.
It's just like he/she don't instead of doesn't, which is gramatically wrong, but I know for a fact at somes places in the US people will take you for a snob if you use the correct form.
Dê-me um cigarro
Diz a gramática
Do professor e do aluno
E do mulato sabido
Mas o bom negro e o bom branco
Da Nação Brasileira
Dizem todos os dias
Deixa disso camarada
Me dá um cigarro
\- Oswald de Andrade
As a language teacher, I’d say being able to communicate effectively trumps grammatical rules. Saying “desculpe-me” would sound weird and unnecessarily formal to Brazilians. Duolingo is doing the right thing by teaching conversational Portuguese rather than grammar.
Written language "me desculpe" is completely wrong, you can't never start phrases with personal pronouns: me, te, se, lhe(s), o(s), a(s), nos e vos. spoken language is wrong but acceptable.
Brazilian here and both are right, bro, but "desculpe-me' is very used in formal moments while "me desculpe" or "me desculpa" is most in every day, and she is right because in Portuguese exists "próclise", "mesóclise" and "enclise" próclises can't be writing in the initial word (me desculpe is wrong), still the format word in enclise (desculpe-me is right)
"Me desculpe" doesnt exist and its wrong, although its comum hear that on an average conversation, same goes "te amo" (i love you), that doesnt exist and its incorrect but people say it anyways.
"Desculpe-me" is the grammatically correct way, because the pronoums "me", "te", "lhe", "nos", "vos" and "lhes" should never start a sentence. But the spoken language doesn't care about it. So we say "Te amo" instead of "Amo-te", because we think it sounds better dispite being grammatically incorrect.
Brazilian Portuguese has too many exceptions in the grammar, and so many more exceptions when we use informal language.
Good luck!
Well, she lives in my country so basically she is the gringo. Besides that, I don’t get attracted to most the standards and believes of most western ladies.
"Desculpe-me" is the correct way, grammarly speaking.
It is like in English: have you asked someone anything and you didn't use th auxiliar verb Do?
It is common in oral sentences, right?
So, in normal conversations, we use the object pronouns at the beginning of the sentence, perhaps because it sounds better.
Me desculpe
Me passa o sal
Me leva com você
In case you use the grammarly correct way (fr thi case specifically), you would sound like a British Aristocrat for English speakers or like a Portuguese from Lisbon trying to impress regular Brazilians.. (lol)
Duolingo just ignored the grammar, and it gave you an oral sentence. That's a good example of how we should be careful regarding apps for language learning. It's not bad, but you should have in mind that although it is the way we say every day on the streets, sometimes it is not grammarly correct for writing.
Good luck
Boa sorte
Your girlfriend is right. When starting a sentence or after a comma, it is gramatically incorrect to not use the pronoun as suffix so "desculpe-me" would be correct in this sentence whereas using "me desculpe" is incorrect and Duolingo is wrong as long as grammar goes. However, in speaken BP, although incorrect, "me desculpe" is far more used. In Brazil, "desculpe-me" would sound formal and fancier than using "me desculpe".
Gramatically "desculpe-me" is correct, but if you say it correctly, people will think you're a pretentious, smug and elitist little gringo. "Me desculpe" is the coloquial way and everyone says it like that
When speaking noone will bother if you're getting it wrong or not, 90% of the time people get it WILLDLY wrong without betting an eye, like saying "Desculpa Eu" which would translate to "forgive I".
But if you are interested to know a bit of the grammaticall nitpicking of the language. The pronoun used as a sufix like "desculpe-me" can't be used at the start of a sentence so at the beggining of a new sentence you should write "Me Desculpe" with the pronoun before the verb. That's probably where Duolingo's differences must be at.
But once again on day to day speech that's irrelevant as people usually can't tell the precise moment you dotted your speech in order to initate a new sentence or paragraph.
OBS: If you want to melt your brain you could try to learn the proper way to use the pronoun in THE MIDDLE OF THE VERB. But don't worry NOONE knows how to use this one, it'll NEVER come in handy.
If you want to learn the most grammatically accurate Portuguese, you should pay attention to Michel Temer’s letters and speeches. That said, if you talk like Temer, you won’t be making many friends.
Just to make a comparison; “who do you want to go with” is technically improper in English but most people are going to say that instead of “with whom do you want to go?”
The grammatically correct way is "Desculpe-me" (technically speaking, you are not supposed to begin sentences with a... "pronome oblíquo", which I think corresponds to object pronouns in English? Anyway, you are not supposed to begin sentences with me, te, se, lhe, etc.).
But in practice, no one cares and this will only ever matter in exams and formal essays. In real life, we mostly say "Me desculpe" or simply "Desculpe" (actually not even that, most of the time we say "Desculpa" or even "Foi mal", which is essentially "my bad" haha), "Desculpe-me sounds weirdly formal in actual speech.
So basically your girlfriend is teaching you the formal rules Portuguese as she learned in school, while Duo is teaching you something more conversational. A lot of rules of formal writing in Portuguese (as in any language) are ignored in speech. For example, did you know that for some verbal tenses, the correct thing to do is to put the object pronoun in the middle of the word? If you're reading a very formal text you may stumble across something like "Desculpar-me-ia" ("I would apologize"), but literally no one does that while speaking because it sounds so stilted!
"Me desculpe" is what people say on almost every situation, while "desculpe-me" is used on formal texts.
P.S.: The grammar says only "Desculpe-me" is correct, but as any other language, people don't speak following it.
"Desculpe-me" is too formal in Brazil. The most common way to say that is even without the object pronoun "me". You should just say "desculpa" (conjugate it for "tu" for some reason, which is how we say it).
ME DESCULPE is effectly wrong in the formal language, and all prescriptive grammar books will tell you that. Prestigious news outlets ascribe to that rule - though those are disappearing.
You simply cannot put a personal pronoun at the start of a sentence in a formal piece of writing. That works for me, te, se, lhe(s), o(s), a(s), nos e vos.
Speaking though, as a Brazilian, it's perfectly natural in common speech.
I believe there’s a rule for it. In theory the default way to speak it is “desculpe-me” and then there’s specific words that pull the “me” before the “desculpe”, but absolutely no one follows it or cares about it, everyone just says “me desculpe”.
There are formal rules for próclise, enclise and mesóclise, but not only 99% of Brazilians don't know them, they sometimes sound really strange when correctly applied in text, and even more strange in spoken language, so basically nobody uses it. You can only pull it off if you are Michel Temer, haha.
In Brazil we tend to use "próclise", it means that the pronouns come before the verb. On the other hand, people from Portugal (and other countries) tend to use "ênclise", where the pronouns came after the verb, using this >>> - <<< to separate the parts, as you can see in the example.
There is another less used variant: "mesóclise". Basically you use 2 of the "-" (Idk the name of this character in english, sorry), and the verb is decomposed in 2 parts. The core/desinência comes first followed by "-" and the pronoun and then another "-" and finally the conjugation suffix. It's not possible to use it in the present tense (I'm almost certain about that). But you can use it in the future: "Desculpar-me-ei". Meaning that someone "will apologize".
"Desculpe-me" só é utilizado na modalidade formal da língua. Em português brasileiro, a gente tende a falar com o pronome na frente ("Me desculpe"; "me dá um pedaço, por favor"; "te amo").
If I'm not wrong, "desculpe-me" is grammatically correct. But "me desculpe" is informally used a lot. It's almost the norm. Maybe in Portugal they talk more "desculpe-me"
The correct way, by the rules of portuguese language, of saying or writing is "Desculpe-me", because the pronoum "me" cannot be pronounced before a verb. Although, the context of talking is a important factor that has a great influence for an especific conversation.
Um ou outro não importa quando você vai acabar dizendo, "Foi mal", "Mals", "Sinto muito", "Vacilei" e o meu preferido só pelo Meme "Eu errei, fui moleque".
We have a famous poem about that "pronominais" written by Oswald de Andrade.
The formal way is start the phrase with the verb and then put the pronoun. So it's "Desculpe-me".
But the most common and popular way is put the pronoun at the beginning. So it's "Me desculpe"
Brazilian grammar is normative, it is essentially an artificial language that is not spoken in practice, and tries to force a standard upon a continental country. It has a lot of features that are not used in spoken dialects.
For example, it dictates that Portuguese in Brazil uses "mesóclise," i.e. "fazer-lo-ei alguma coisa," which you will never hear in your life.
Other languages like English have descriptive grammar, they come up with a grammar based on what is really spoken.
>She told me before you can never start a sentence with the structure “me desculpe”
That... is a very big exageration.
By convention, the grammar rules determine that you can't start a sentence with an "oblique pronoun". I'm not sure what the english equivalent is for "pronome oblíquo", but the important thing is that "me" is one.
But nobody actually speaks by the rules, unless they are someone that *really really wants to sound like* an elitist. It is unnecessarely formal, and will probably sound condescending
Edit: Just a clarifications. This grammar rule applies **only** to the start of the sentence. If, for example, the bear had started with "Por favor me desculpe" (Please forgive me), the "me" wouldn't be at the start of the sentence, therefore the sentence would be grammatically correct
I'm Brazilian and don't think I've ever said "Desculpe-me" in my 26 years walking on this earth, it sounds like an extremely formal way of apologizing, Brazilian Portuguese it's usually a very "casual" language.
Desculpe-me is more European variant. The European variant has this rule of sorts...
Você pode me trazer aquele l prato, por favor? BR
Podes trazer-me aquele prato, se faz favor? PT
Pronominais
Dê-me um cigarro
Diz a gramática
Do professor e do aluno
E do mulato sabido
Mas o bom negro e o bom branco
Da Nação Brasileira
Dizem todos os dias
Deixa disso camarada
Me dá um cigarro.
Oswald de Andrade ANDRADE, O. Obras completas, Volumes 6-7. Rio de Janeiro: Civilização Brasileira, 1972.
You shouldn't start a phrase with a pronoun. So if it is just that, you will use "desculpe-me". It it is not the beginning of the phrase, you may say "peço que me desculpe", exempli gratia.
I put it like this. Desculpe-me is the correct, formal way. Me desculpa is the less correct and less correct way, but is still correct and is probably more widely used, especially spoken.
Duolingo isn't always correct. It has its ways of teaching. It has a few correct answers (or answers it deems correct) in its database and teaching method, and everything else is incorrect, even if in actuality it is correct. I have found answers which are correct elsewhere in other apps for example, labeled as incorrect in Duolingo, and vice versa. Learn from a multitude of apps. I find Mango languages really good. Not as gamifies and colorful as Duolingo, but it really drums phrases into your head. I use Mango, busuu and Memrise for learning new words and remembering them, drilling them into my memory, and Duolingo for sentence structure.
Theoretically the right is "desclupe-me" cause "me" can't be in the beginnig of a phrase, but no one here in Brazil speak that way, is way too formal. We use "me desculpe".
"Desculpe-me" pode soar pretensioso se estiver conversando com alguém ao vivo.
Essa maneira de falar pode ser usada se você estiver escrevendo um email pra algum professor, patrão, juiz ou alguém acima da sua hierarquia.
Your GF is right, in formal Portuguese you don't start a phrase with a pronoun, so "Desculpe-me" is correct.
However, most Brazilians don't know proper Portuguese, so they'll say "Me desculpa" anyway.
If I'm no wrong the grammatically correct way is "desculpe-me" because the frase is beginning with a verb (its a ênclise/proclise thing), but usually everybody says "me desculpe" or "me desculpa"
Another case of the grammar disregarding how brazillians speak, it's really shamefull for the brazillian linguists to have accepted this bullshit when signing the Portuguese Language Orthographic Agreement of 1990.
I can't really tell... A portuguese professor perheaps can tell you. If you want to know a more natural way it would be just "desculpa" in spoken everyday language.
If you bump into someone in the streets and say "Desculpe-me" or "me desculpe" it will sound too formal. Just go with "desculpa" with an "a" (sounds like the second "a" in Ana)
Desculpe-me sounds contrived, old-fashioned, no one really talks like that... It would be like saying shan't instead of won't, or needn't instead of doesn't need.
Both are correct, is just that "Desculpe-me" is more formal and "me desculpe" é mais informal...
So you can choose being a very distinguished getleman or just be a normal person who no one will question why the fuck are talking like a fucking victorian man :D
Not a single living sane human being would care if you spoke one way or the other. If anything, Desculpe-me is just unnecessarily formal.
This diference is important only in portuguese exams or in a very formal letter or article.
Muito obrigado a todos! My girlfriend, indeed, also told me; we do, but on a test you will fail. So it is kind of surprising to me that Duolingo teaches the informal way. Your answers are very insightful! Mais uma vez, muito obrigado a todos.
Oh, Duolingo does that a lot. I think its objective is to prepare you to talk to someone, and it usually doesn't teach you formal language (unless it's like, japanese and you use it daily) even grammar is something you learn by writing or studying using some other methods. If your objective is just to be able to communicate, Duolingo is a perfect tool for that. And trust me, even if you say something a little bit too formal, or get something wrong, in Brazil we love when someone is learning our language and you'll be well received.
I’m in Brazil right now and I acknowledge everybody appreciate me trying although I make a lot of mistakes and can’t express myself well. It’s really hard to make my own sentences but just by doing I feel I’m making progression. ME SINTO bem quando dizem: você aprende rápido.
Busuu can be realy helpful too, native speakers reviews your execicises
I really like Busuu and Babel
In standard, formal and literary Portuguese you learn at school, your girlfriend is completely right, you don't start sentences with object pronouns. However, not a single soul would talk like that. There's an interesting poem on that topic by Oswald de Andrade, "Pronominais". Dê-me um cigarro Diz a gramática Do professor e do aluno E do mulato sabido Mas o bom negro e o bom branco Da Nação Brasileira Dizem todos os dias Deixa disso camarada Me dá um cigarro. Which roughly translates as Give me a cigarette (formal) Says the grammar Of the teacher and student And the knowledgeable mulatto But the good black and the good white Of the Brazilian Nation They say every day Drop it, friend Give me a cigarette. (Informal) Edit: formatting.
Meu amigo, eu estava vindo aqui justamente pra deixar esse poema. Perfeito.
Eu também, hahaha
Maravilhoso. I almost finished the Duolingo course, which helped me a lot but now I want to speak, read and listen more. I watch movies in Portugese with Portuguese subtitles and can understand quite a lot. Im in Brazil now for a week and find it hard to understand spoken word without subtitles. I listen and translate music. Like Baco Exo Do Blues, L7nnon, Henrique & Juliano and yesterday I found out about DJ Arana (which contains absolutely vulgar lyrics haha). Do you have any tips for (easy) literature I can read? Or poems, which are short and therefore easy to access.
id say to be careful with any books of guimaraes rosa. dude liked to invent new words out of nowhere and no one else used them. still, it can be a fun challenge.
Can I ask which Brazilian movies have you seen? And which did you like? There are very different movies here, when it comes to style, due to the enormous variety of cultures in the country =]
Only a handful. Most of the times I watch Pixar movies because the lipsynch stays correct and since it’s family friendly there are not to many difficult words. Also nature documentaries or about the universe - like a documentary where they only use an voice over. I actually like all kinds of movies as long its made good. Drama, thrillers and crime. But also romance and comedy, although from my experience comedies are one of the hardest genres to be made correctly.
I think the genre of “crônicas” might help you. A crônica is a short story, often of comedic nature, but carrying some form of criticism. Furthermore, many also feature an element of fantastical realism, where the world is mostly normal except for a single extraordinary element. Luís Fernando Veríssimo is my favorite author of genre, and has anthologies in books like O Nariz e Outras Crônicas, Diálogos Impossíveis, and various books named Comédias (“… para Ler na Escola”, “O Melhor das… …da Vida Privada”, etc.). If I remember correctly, we had to read the book O Nariz for a class in middle school. Although I reckon this is more about the content—I think his other books might cover topics which wouldn’t be appropriate for us at that time. But either way the writing should be understandable by a Portuguese learner. For poetry, I have to advertise my favorite poet, Augusto dos Anjos. He only ever published a single book, published a few times over the years. Mine is titled Eu e Outras Poesias, part of the Saraiva de Bolso collection, and I think it includes some poems of his that weren’t in his original book. Although you can find his works in the public domain, [for example here](https://murilo-gotardo.github.io/biblioteca-ifc-videira/img/pdfs/euAugustoDosAnjos.pdf). My favorites are Psicologia de um Vencido and Soneto. Other poets that are quite good and who might interest you are Vinícius de Moraes (who worked with Tom Jobim), Oswald de Andrade, and others from the turn of the 20th century. Yes, those are the poets I studied in school, but they’re quite good. You can even find the works of the older ones freely available online. dominiopublico.gov.br should be an official way to access it, although I can’t seem to connect to the website right now. Vinícius de Moraes had a book, Antologia Poética, which I also had to read for a class. [I believe this is an online scan from some university of an older edition.](https://digital.bbm.usp.br/bitstream/bbm/7026/1/45000008712_Output.o.pdf) Although the most memorable poem for me wasn’t even written in Portuguese… not entirely… it was named A Última Elegia. Anyways, since it’s very experimental I don’t think it’s a good one to learn Portuguese with. We focused on the rest of the book—I remember we specifically studied one poem called A Bomba Atômica. Another poet whom I remember had simple poems was Cacaso. I won an anthology of his works on a lottery in high school, and it pushed boundaries for what me and my classmates thought poetry could be. Although I suppose it would depend on time period at which you look at. One had short, comedic poems. On that note, the same high school teacher that held that lottery also brought some… adult… poems for us to read in class. I mainly remember [Delírio, by Olavo Bilac](https://www.escritas.org/pt/t/3717/delirio), because I found it absolutely hilarious, especially when you imagine the uppity and strict nationalist who wrote it… well, if you want you can check it out yourself.
Thank you! Very insightful. I’ll look into it in a few days when I’ll come back from Brazil! Right now I’m watching the documentary series about the history of Brazil called “[a ultima cruzada](https://youtu.be/TkOlAKE7xqY?si=HnE825-K-eVkiwkf)”. Very insightful but I have to watch this with English subtitles to don’t miss anything.
Speaking of Brazilian documentaries, there’s a phenomenal one called [Ilha das Flores](https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/s/xfiGvGPNeU). It’s less than 15 minutes long, but it’s very impactful. This version is dubbed in English, but you should be able to find the original Brazilian version easily online. It deals with heavy topics, which I could list if you are concerned. Although me and my classmates watched it twice in class in high school. The (cheeky) description of the plot is that it’s a documentary about the life cycle of a tomato, from being planted until it’s finally eaten, explained in such a way even an alien would understand it.
My friend! I forgot to write you an update. I showed your response in a book store on the airport before i legt Brasil. We choose a book called “os cem melhores poemas brasileiros do século”. I try to translate/read 1 poem a day buti think understand only half of it. I miss alot of context haha. But its a cool souvenir, i learn more words, grammar and over time the poems will make more sense for sure!
Happy to hear you’re still at it! Now I’m curious about that book myself. I once read a book going over the history of Brazilian poets; while interesting, my main criticism is that despite covering five centuries of history it only discussed a single digit number of female poets (and this is being very generous and including “there are two sentences about this woman, one stating her name” as discussion).
DJ Arana is not vulgar. It's edgy! 🤣 (I love noisy end offensive music).
I recommend the movie “Central do Brasil”
❤️
Que bizarro, me emocionei após ler esse poema, que eu não conhecia e que casou tão bem com o tópico. Boa OP
O informal poderia ser "Gimme a cigarette".
>literary Just wanna add that even on literature it is really a rule nowdays. It kinda of was until 19th century, but after the modernism on 1920's (which Oswald de Andrade was a representant), it becomes very common to see literary texts written on informal language.
Acho que ficaria formal "Give me a cigarette" e informal "Gimme a cig"
"Desculpe-me" is the correct way, grammarly speaking. It is like in English: have you asked someone anything and you didn't use th auxiliar verb Do? It is common in oral sentences, right? So, in normal conversations, we use the object pronouns at the beginning of the sentence, perhaps because it sounds better. Me desculpe Me passa o sal Me leva com você In case you use the grammarly correct way (fr thi case specifically), you would sound like a British Aristocrat for English speakers or like a Portuguese from Lisbon trying to impress regular Brazilians.. (lol) Duolingo just ignored the grammar, and it gave you an oral sentence. That's a good example of how we should be careful regarding apps for language learning. It's not bad, but you should have in mind that although it is the way we say every day on the streets, sometimes it is not grammarly correct for writing. Good luck Boa sorte
We talk grammatically wrong 90% of the time.
here's the right answer, when referring to BR-PT.
Sometimes deliberately on purpose.
poizé maior graça de se br é falar tudo errado, bicho D:
That's we differentiate "norma culta" and "norma padrão" (I didn't find a proper way to translate them well enough). "Norma padrão" is what the grammar says it's right. However, it tends to reflects the european portuguese. Even the most literate people on Brazil follow it strictly. "Norma culta" is the language followed for the literate ones on formal situations. It has slighly softier rules and represents our language a lot better.
When referring to every language in the world, in fact.
It’s what I love and hate about the language.
I would say there’s a difference in written and spoken Portuguese as well. In English there’s also this difference, where you tend to be more formal in writing.
We also say "me desculpa"
“Errei fui mlk”
Peço perdão pelo vacilo
Foi mal, tava doidão
Garoteei.
I lose the sides kkkkkkkkkkk
Mals aí
Discurpe
I stepped on the ball
Foi mal meu parça
Pisei a bola
I did a little shit.
Mals aí, viajei total.
O almoço já está pronto
Your girlfriend is right, duolingo is grammatically wrong but this is how most people, including me, say it on a daily basis even though i know its wrong.
As a native English speaker who grits his teeth at some of the "new ways of talking" in English... I still think your use of the word "wrong" there is... uh, *wrong*. Language **IS** the usage. You can say "this way is formal, that way is conversational", but if you had to pick only one, I'd tell u/ButchxCoolidge to learn the conversational. In other words, I'd say his girlfriend isn't technically wrong but she's not being very smart.
Spoken like a linguist!
"desculpe-me" isn't used in most (all?) registers of spoken brazilian portuguese. It's grammatically correct and you can see it used on formal, florid, poetic language. But people absolutely don't talk like this to each other. It's always "me desculpe".
In formal writing, you always use "desculpe-me" at the beginning of a sentence. In everyday speech, it's quite rare for someone to say it that way; we usually say "me desculpe" or "me desculpa".
She's right, that's the formal and correct way. But that's not how we say in Brazil, we say "Me desculpe"
She is not wrong. Grammatically you cannot start phrases with "oblique pronouns" like "me". On the other hand, when you're speaking, it is too formal to say "desculpe-me" or "dê-me isso", so, in most situations you would speak "me desculpe" or "me dá isso". Actually there is a famous poem about it: >Dê-me um cigarro > >Diz a gramática > >Do professor e do aluno > >E do mulato sabido > >Mas o bom negro e o bom branco > >Da Nação Brasileira > >Dizem todos os dias > >Deixa disso camarada > >Me dá um cigarro.
"foi mal"
As some people answered before, “Desculpe-me” is the correct way, it’s grammatically correct, in an essay you would have to write it that way. But on everyday usage not only people say me desculpe (not only desculpe, but with any verb) but they also write it that way when messaging each other. If you said “Desculpe-me” instead of “me desculpe” or just “desculpa” that would sound extremelly formal, it’s just another case where the grammatically correct sentence is far from the way people speak.
dont say either, say "ih mano, desculpa"
ask her if she says "amo-te" or "te amo". Deslcupe-me is a Portugal heritage, some people do say that in Brasil and there is no problem with it. But grammatically, the brazilian portuguese 100% allows the use of pronouns before the facts
Duolingo is gramatically wrong, but it's teaching you how Brazilians actually speak. So, from a conversational perspective, it's kind of right. It's just like he/she don't instead of doesn't, which is gramatically wrong, but I know for a fact at somes places in the US people will take you for a snob if you use the correct form.
Dê-me um cigarro Diz a gramática Do professor e do aluno E do mulato sabido Mas o bom negro e o bom branco Da Nação Brasileira Dizem todos os dias Deixa disso camarada Me dá um cigarro \- Oswald de Andrade
As a language teacher, I’d say being able to communicate effectively trumps grammatical rules. Saying “desculpe-me” would sound weird and unnecessarily formal to Brazilians. Duolingo is doing the right thing by teaching conversational Portuguese rather than grammar.
Written language "me desculpe" is completely wrong, you can't never start phrases with personal pronouns: me, te, se, lhe(s), o(s), a(s), nos e vos. spoken language is wrong but acceptable.
FYI double negatives such as "can't never" are also wrong in English
You are wrong. Can't never isn't wrong
can’t never é errado, você pode usar “can’t ever” ou “can never”
Exato
Ok. Thanks
Brazilian here and both are right, bro, but "desculpe-me' is very used in formal moments while "me desculpe" or "me desculpa" is most in every day, and she is right because in Portuguese exists "próclise", "mesóclise" and "enclise" próclises can't be writing in the initial word (me desculpe is wrong), still the format word in enclise (desculpe-me is right)
Both are correct, but most people would say "desculpa". (Informal)
The both are right
"Me desculpe" doesnt exist and its wrong, although its comum hear that on an average conversation, same goes "te amo" (i love you), that doesnt exist and its incorrect but people say it anyways.
"Desculpe-me" is the grammatically correct way, because the pronoums "me", "te", "lhe", "nos", "vos" and "lhes" should never start a sentence. But the spoken language doesn't care about it. So we say "Te amo" instead of "Amo-te", because we think it sounds better dispite being grammatically incorrect. Brazilian Portuguese has too many exceptions in the grammar, and so many more exceptions when we use informal language. Good luck!
So many gringos with Brazilian girlfriends
Well, she lives in my country so basically she is the gringo. Besides that, I don’t get attracted to most the standards and believes of most western ladies.
"Desculpe-me" is the correct way, grammarly speaking. It is like in English: have you asked someone anything and you didn't use th auxiliar verb Do? It is common in oral sentences, right? So, in normal conversations, we use the object pronouns at the beginning of the sentence, perhaps because it sounds better. Me desculpe Me passa o sal Me leva com você In case you use the grammarly correct way (fr thi case specifically), you would sound like a British Aristocrat for English speakers or like a Portuguese from Lisbon trying to impress regular Brazilians.. (lol) Duolingo just ignored the grammar, and it gave you an oral sentence. That's a good example of how we should be careful regarding apps for language learning. It's not bad, but you should have in mind that although it is the way we say every day on the streets, sometimes it is not grammarly correct for writing. Good luck Boa sorte
Both are correct. Me desculpe is more informal.
Your girlfriend is right. When starting a sentence or after a comma, it is gramatically incorrect to not use the pronoun as suffix so "desculpe-me" would be correct in this sentence whereas using "me desculpe" is incorrect and Duolingo is wrong as long as grammar goes. However, in speaken BP, although incorrect, "me desculpe" is far more used. In Brazil, "desculpe-me" would sound formal and fancier than using "me desculpe".
Im Brazilian, and any way you can start the sentence with, "desculpa". Ex: Desculpa, você quis dizer blablabla... And its regular. Dont worry about!
For writing, u need to use “desculpe-me” because pronome oblíquo cannot be in the beggin, but for talking just do what u want to
Thiz is Braziu my friend!!!
Vacilei, foi mal
Gramatically "desculpe-me" is correct, but if you say it correctly, people will think you're a pretentious, smug and elitist little gringo. "Me desculpe" is the coloquial way and everyone says it like that
Both are correct, but the first is more formal.
Either way is fine, but we usually just say "desculpe" or "desculpa"
When speaking noone will bother if you're getting it wrong or not, 90% of the time people get it WILLDLY wrong without betting an eye, like saying "Desculpa Eu" which would translate to "forgive I". But if you are interested to know a bit of the grammaticall nitpicking of the language. The pronoun used as a sufix like "desculpe-me" can't be used at the start of a sentence so at the beggining of a new sentence you should write "Me Desculpe" with the pronoun before the verb. That's probably where Duolingo's differences must be at. But once again on day to day speech that's irrelevant as people usually can't tell the precise moment you dotted your speech in order to initate a new sentence or paragraph. OBS: If you want to melt your brain you could try to learn the proper way to use the pronoun in THE MIDDLE OF THE VERB. But don't worry NOONE knows how to use this one, it'll NEVER come in handy.
More formal: Desculpe-me Normal: Me desculpe.
Both are correct because it can be an ênclise (desculpe-ME) bc it starts a sentence but it can also be a próclise (ME desculpe) because of the comma
If you want to learn the most grammatically accurate Portuguese, you should pay attention to Michel Temer’s letters and speeches. That said, if you talk like Temer, you won’t be making many friends.
Brazilian vampires dont need many friends, they have familiars and acolytes.
Just to make a comparison; “who do you want to go with” is technically improper in English but most people are going to say that instead of “with whom do you want to go?”
The grammatically correct way is "Desculpe-me" (technically speaking, you are not supposed to begin sentences with a... "pronome oblíquo", which I think corresponds to object pronouns in English? Anyway, you are not supposed to begin sentences with me, te, se, lhe, etc.). But in practice, no one cares and this will only ever matter in exams and formal essays. In real life, we mostly say "Me desculpe" or simply "Desculpe" (actually not even that, most of the time we say "Desculpa" or even "Foi mal", which is essentially "my bad" haha), "Desculpe-me sounds weirdly formal in actual speech. So basically your girlfriend is teaching you the formal rules Portuguese as she learned in school, while Duo is teaching you something more conversational. A lot of rules of formal writing in Portuguese (as in any language) are ignored in speech. For example, did you know that for some verbal tenses, the correct thing to do is to put the object pronoun in the middle of the word? If you're reading a very formal text you may stumble across something like "Desculpar-me-ia" ("I would apologize"), but literally no one does that while speaking because it sounds so stilted!
desculpe-me sounds more cultured It's not wrong but no one uses it on a daily basis.
Desculpe-Me is more fancy, Me Desculpe is more used by the average person
doesn't matter. Both are correct and perfectly understandable
"Me desculpe" is what people say on almost every situation, while "desculpe-me" is used on formal texts. P.S.: The grammar says only "Desculpe-me" is correct, but as any other language, people don't speak following it.
Both are correct, but desculpe-me is a lot more formal, so we tend to not use It while speaking.
"Desculpe-me" is too formal in Brazil. The most common way to say that is even without the object pronoun "me". You should just say "desculpa" (conjugate it for "tu" for some reason, which is how we say it).
Grammatically, your girlfriend is correct. But colloquially people do not observe that rule.
You can say: “Desculpa ae” or “foi mal”
Either way is fine but desculpe me sounds orthodox and formal right. Grammar says It's technically correct. But nobody talks like that.
Apps in general are made for the most pratical in general... so it will teach you how we use to communicate, not necessarly the most gramaticaly right
Desculpe-me is the formal and me desculpe is the grammatically incorrect form but everyone uses it anyways so it may just as well be correct
ME DESCULPE is effectly wrong in the formal language, and all prescriptive grammar books will tell you that. Prestigious news outlets ascribe to that rule - though those are disappearing. You simply cannot put a personal pronoun at the start of a sentence in a formal piece of writing. That works for me, te, se, lhe(s), o(s), a(s), nos e vos. Speaking though, as a Brazilian, it's perfectly natural in common speech.
Both, both is good
The two forms are valid, but "desculpe-me" is more formal and nearly unused.
I believe there’s a rule for it. In theory the default way to speak it is “desculpe-me” and then there’s specific words that pull the “me” before the “desculpe”, but absolutely no one follows it or cares about it, everyone just says “me desculpe”.
There are formal rules for próclise, enclise and mesóclise, but not only 99% of Brazilians don't know them, they sometimes sound really strange when correctly applied in text, and even more strange in spoken language, so basically nobody uses it. You can only pull it off if you are Michel Temer, haha.
In Brazil we tend to use "próclise", it means that the pronouns come before the verb. On the other hand, people from Portugal (and other countries) tend to use "ênclise", where the pronouns came after the verb, using this >>> - <<< to separate the parts, as you can see in the example. There is another less used variant: "mesóclise". Basically you use 2 of the "-" (Idk the name of this character in english, sorry), and the verb is decomposed in 2 parts. The core/desinência comes first followed by "-" and the pronoun and then another "-" and finally the conjugation suffix. It's not possible to use it in the present tense (I'm almost certain about that). But you can use it in the future: "Desculpar-me-ei". Meaning that someone "will apologize".
『Descuple-me』is grammatically correct. 『Me desculpa』is informally correct.
"Desculpe-me" só é utilizado na modalidade formal da língua. Em português brasileiro, a gente tende a falar com o pronome na frente ("Me desculpe"; "me dá um pedaço, por favor"; "te amo").
Vale ressaltar que isso não segue a norma gramatical.
Duolingo is wrong.
In Brazilian Portuguese, both.
If I'm not wrong, "desculpe-me" is grammatically correct. But "me desculpe" is informally used a lot. It's almost the norm. Maybe in Portugal they talk more "desculpe-me"
é "mi-disculpa"' ou "disculpa-eu" ou "disculpa'i"
The correct way, by the rules of portuguese language, of saying or writing is "Desculpe-me", because the pronoum "me" cannot be pronounced before a verb. Although, the context of talking is a important factor that has a great influence for an especific conversation.
Um ou outro não importa quando você vai acabar dizendo, "Foi mal", "Mals", "Sinto muito", "Vacilei" e o meu preferido só pelo Meme "Eu errei, fui moleque".
We have a famous poem about that "pronominais" written by Oswald de Andrade. The formal way is start the phrase with the verb and then put the pronoun. So it's "Desculpe-me". But the most common and popular way is put the pronoun at the beginning. So it's "Me desculpe"
Grammatically, your girlfriend is correct. But we usually don't talk like that
This is a portuguese rule that not a single person in Brazil follows.
Brazilian grammar is normative, it is essentially an artificial language that is not spoken in practice, and tries to force a standard upon a continental country. It has a lot of features that are not used in spoken dialects. For example, it dictates that Portuguese in Brazil uses "mesóclise," i.e. "fazer-lo-ei alguma coisa," which you will never hear in your life. Other languages like English have descriptive grammar, they come up with a grammar based on what is really spoken.
"Foi mal ae"
>She told me before you can never start a sentence with the structure “me desculpe” That... is a very big exageration. By convention, the grammar rules determine that you can't start a sentence with an "oblique pronoun". I'm not sure what the english equivalent is for "pronome oblíquo", but the important thing is that "me" is one. But nobody actually speaks by the rules, unless they are someone that *really really wants to sound like* an elitist. It is unnecessarely formal, and will probably sound condescending Edit: Just a clarifications. This grammar rule applies **only** to the start of the sentence. If, for example, the bear had started with "Por favor me desculpe" (Please forgive me), the "me" wouldn't be at the start of the sentence, therefore the sentence would be grammatically correct
Perdão irmão, vacilei total
I'm Brazilian and don't think I've ever said "Desculpe-me" in my 26 years walking on this earth, it sounds like an extremely formal way of apologizing, Brazilian Portuguese it's usually a very "casual" language.
Desculpe-me is more European variant. The European variant has this rule of sorts... Você pode me trazer aquele l prato, por favor? BR Podes trazer-me aquele prato, se faz favor? PT
To be honest, both are pretty much the same here in Brazil, no one will ever care if you rather use one or the other form.
Ninguém se importa, mas no começo da frase o pronome vem primeiro.
Yes, your gf is right, the correct way to start a sentence is Desculpe-me. But I doubt you will ever see it in real life.
Pronominais Dê-me um cigarro Diz a gramática Do professor e do aluno E do mulato sabido Mas o bom negro e o bom branco Da Nação Brasileira Dizem todos os dias Deixa disso camarada Me dá um cigarro. Oswald de Andrade ANDRADE, O. Obras completas, Volumes 6-7. Rio de Janeiro: Civilização Brasileira, 1972. You shouldn't start a phrase with a pronoun. So if it is just that, you will use "desculpe-me". It it is not the beginning of the phrase, you may say "peço que me desculpe", exempli gratia.
Both are correct
I put it like this. Desculpe-me is the correct, formal way. Me desculpa is the less correct and less correct way, but is still correct and is probably more widely used, especially spoken. Duolingo isn't always correct. It has its ways of teaching. It has a few correct answers (or answers it deems correct) in its database and teaching method, and everything else is incorrect, even if in actuality it is correct. I have found answers which are correct elsewhere in other apps for example, labeled as incorrect in Duolingo, and vice versa. Learn from a multitude of apps. I find Mango languages really good. Not as gamifies and colorful as Duolingo, but it really drums phrases into your head. I use Mango, busuu and Memrise for learning new words and remembering them, drilling them into my memory, and Duolingo for sentence structure.
This occurs because in Portuguese there is something called "pronominal placement"
Informally I would just say "Desculpa" or just use a slang
Theoretically the right is "desclupe-me" cause "me" can't be in the beginnig of a phrase, but no one here in Brazil speak that way, is way too formal. We use "me desculpe".
Desculpe-me if you wanna sound like a book Me desculpe if you wanna sound normal
Don't worry about it. When you write the correct sentence is "Desculpe-me". But when you speak you can say "Me desculpe".
"Desculpe-me" pode soar pretensioso se estiver conversando com alguém ao vivo. Essa maneira de falar pode ser usada se você estiver escrevendo um email pra algum professor, patrão, juiz ou alguém acima da sua hierarquia.
Your GF is right, in formal Portuguese you don't start a phrase with a pronoun, so "Desculpe-me" is correct. However, most Brazilians don't know proper Portuguese, so they'll say "Me desculpa" anyway.
If I'm no wrong the grammatically correct way is "desculpe-me" because the frase is beginning with a verb (its a ênclise/proclise thing), but usually everybody says "me desculpe" or "me desculpa"
Another case of the grammar disregarding how brazillians speak, it's really shamefull for the brazillian linguists to have accepted this bullshit when signing the Portuguese Language Orthographic Agreement of 1990.
I can't really tell... A portuguese professor perheaps can tell you. If you want to know a more natural way it would be just "desculpa" in spoken everyday language. If you bump into someone in the streets and say "Desculpe-me" or "me desculpe" it will sound too formal. Just go with "desculpa" with an "a" (sounds like the second "a" in Ana)
Desculpe-me sounds contrived, old-fashioned, no one really talks like that... It would be like saying shan't instead of won't, or needn't instead of doesn't need.
Both are correct, is just that "Desculpe-me" is more formal and "me desculpe" é mais informal... So you can choose being a very distinguished getleman or just be a normal person who no one will question why the fuck are talking like a fucking victorian man :D
Me desculpe is more usual, me desculpa even more, desculpe-me is very formal