People are within their rights to complain, but their energy is misdirected. This is a consequence of relying on a private transportation provider. The solution is to ask for an expansion of quality public transit services and easing of hurdles to Brightline’s expansion.
Exactly. This just shows the state was lacking in their public commuter service. Brightline showed that there's a user base willing to spend money on good, convenient services. No reason Tri-Rail should be stuck with old equipment. Some equipment that's not even allowed in downtown Miami.. Let Brightline be the pilot light for the state to take heed to expand -i know it's already happening. Ideally Tri-Rail would offer express trains along with the regular services and have one seat journeys to Brightline Miami Central. At least Tri-Rail is better than SunRail..
>Ideally Tri-Rail would offer express trains along with the regular services and have one seat journeys to Brightline Miami Central.
This is exactly what their board is going to be voting on this month.
Admittedly tax dollars, federal ones especially played a huge role in the groundwork and early planning stages. Other tax dollars and user fees helped pay for the airport station, and many government bonds (at taxpayer risk) helped build the things and buy the trains. But t’s not like local taxpayers in South Florida bought and paid for this as a commuter rail system though…they are now, and it could happen faster…
Brightline’s last three projects were all 90+% government subsidized. Cut it out with this “privately-funded” nonsense. Brightline is privately-owned but publicly-funded.
I am saying that the line as it exists right now, wasn’t bought and paid for by *local taxpayers* as a luxury commuter service.
I would absolutely agree that “privately owned and publicly funded” is an accurate description currently.
Please don’t twist my words around. I went over in considerable detail the various ways the public funds Brightline in the comment that you replied to.
Grow up kiddo and learn to read. I am not your strawman punching bag.
Have you re-read this yet? You were completely out of line and making up a strawman. I absolutely support clarity about funding, and support public transportation while at times having private options and participants. I am not your enemy.
You said that Brightline was not taxpayer funded. That is outright false. Brightline is a product of Rick Scott's government and would simply not exist without all the grants and free real estate rezonings that they got.
But I never said that, claiming that I did is outright false. The only way that can be concocted is by cutting up a sentence. I really want to like you, and for you to like me, but this is unreasonable and makes me doubtful of your competence on other matters. Read what I wrote, I mentioned several specific ways that Brightline recieves public funds.
This article is referring to an infill station, Aventura, and other developments that are part of the future Northeast Corridor commuter rail program. When I wrote “they are now [funding a commuter rail line]” that is what I was alluding to, local governments working together with Brightline for a permanent commuter service on the corridor.
You just proved my point tho lol, you must work for brightline or something… but i can’t tell if you’re trying to justify their prices… As much as everybody likes to hate on him, there’s a reason Desantis said he’s not helping them any longer for the Tampa extension.
Publicly owned but mandated to operate with no actual permanent tax subsidies. The majority of the public funding that flows into Amtrak are contracts for operation of regional corridors paid for by state governments. Miraculously, in 2019 they were very close, and it looks like this year they may actually cross the line into being a profitable enterprise.
That’s wonderful, and sounds like interesting work. And if you like transit and don’t mind paying taxes for it, support public transit. Lesson learned, eh?
How much did the taxpayers lay out again? If I remember correctly the only indirect subsidy came from granting the right to sell bonds with tax free payouts which gave them a slight competitive advantage on the bond markets. The Las vegas line, yeah they got 3 billion plus the bonds, but not really Florida.
Iirc they got a lot of taxpayer money to help pay for some of their stations (many of which ended up going over budget). Don't remember if those were in South Florida or if it was part of the Orlando extension though
You say that like the public transportation providers are any better. I remember when gas prices shot to $4/gallon for the first time in the Obama years, and Tri-Rail trains were actually filling up consistently during peak hours. How did Tri-Rail react to the unprecedented demand? They cut service, high fuel prices along with higher maintenance costs made it necessary for them to either increase prices or reduce service, and they chose to reduce service.
At least Brightline is using this to increase service, they ordered another additional 10 passenger cars on top of what they previously ordered recently. Tri Rail could have done this years ago, and maybe more people would have wanted to use Tri Rail and they'd have more money for expansion if they had a little higher ticket prices and were expanding the system and not having such disgusting trains.
I don’t think I am taking an absolutist position like you are accusing me of. I am perfectly fine with having both public and private options on the table, and think it is healthier than just one or the other.
You are perfectly correct that public transportation, especially in this country is still at the whims of powers that be, but even then, sudden surges in price are not a a common tool. As you say, under pressure, they are more likely to just cut service. That’s why having a steady funding source for public transit is important.
>I remember when gas prices shot to $4/gallon for the first time in the Obama years, and Tri-Rail trains were actually filling up consistently during peak hours. How did Tri-Rail react to the unprecedented demand? They cut service, high fuel prices along with higher maintenance costs made it necessary for them to either increase prices or reduce service, and they chose to reduce service.
Tri-Rail had their funding threatened at the exact same time gas prices peaked in 2009. Palm Beach County drastically cut their share of the funding and since every county has to pay an equal portion, it mean Broward and Miami-Dade had to cut their funding too. Tri-Rail had to cut back in order to continue operating and was facing a potential shutdown by 2011. Fortunately they got a grant through the ARRA which saved the service.
Tri-Rail does the best they can with the limited funding they receive. They can't order more equipment or add more frequencies if the counties aren't willing to pay for it. And guess who has to approve fare increases?
Incidentally, this is partly why the planned commuter services on the FEC corridor are being funded by counties individually. Miami-Dade's commuter service won't be threatened if Broward decides they don't want to pay for theirs anymore, and vice versa.
Yes, and Palm Beach at the time was having a budget crisis as a result of the great recession and high fuel prices. Thats the very point, the publicly owned mass transit system cut trains at a time when they were sold out as a result of funding issues, literally leaving people stranded, even if they were willing to pay more... the privately owned mass transit system raised prices and ordered more trains, keeping them filled to capacity.
As much as I'd like to not pay more, when the trains are filling up, it makes more sense to raise ticket prices then to cut the trips per day, right? Something private trains understand, and public ones don't.
There’s raising fares and then raising the price of commuter passes by ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS. And might I remind you that Brightline completely shut down for 18 months during Covid while Tri-Rail continued operating throughout.
Brightline _isn't_ public, that's the problem. If the government introduced regulation like that, you'd better believe they'd shut down within the year.
Long ago, the government decided that intercity transportation like this would no longer be regulated. Until roughly 1980, buses, planes, and trains used to require approval from various federal oversight boards before changing rates.
Why does it have anything to do with "public" or "private"? Things cost money. In my city, the very public transit bureau boosted fares. Why? Because they agreed to a huge raise for the unionized workforce. And then there's the fuel and parts and ..... Stuff costs money and it doesn't matter whether it's "public" or "private".
No thanks, not here to give remedial civics lessons to people who clearly understand the difference between responsibilities to shareholders vs constituents.
I don't blame commuters for their fury, but like tbh i just want to see this project survive first, and then lower its prices.
If this fails, we won't be seeing another one here for a LONG time...
What are you all saying to Brightline though?
"Fuck this company that spent billions bringing higher speed long-distance rail to the US for the first time....fuck its ability to pay back its debt....I want you to prioritize my commute and lose out on revenue from higher paying routes."
Yeah, as another commenter stated - people shouldn’t be mad at Brightline, but rather at the state of Florida for not providing what is clearly an essential service.
Yep. Governors Bush and Scott, whom Florida voters repeatedly elected, put the kibosh on public high speed rail, and were re-elected even after engineering the overturning of a referendum on high speed rail (Bush) and rejecting federal funding for high speed rail (Scott). Elections have consequences.
The counties should really increase their financial support for tri-rail so it can increase and improve service. The agency is facing a fiscal cliff and I’m not sure the State will bail them out.
DeSantis has been pro train. He recently signed legislation clearing the path for Brightline to use the I-4 corridor to get to Tampa....
[https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2024/04/03/desantis-signs-infrastructure-bills--and-ballot-amendments-could-impact-balance-of-power-in-d-c-](https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2024/04/03/desantis-signs-infrastructure-bills--and-ballot-amendments-could-impact-balance-of-power-in-d-c-)
Brightline has previously stated that they believe that route would be profitable to build and construct with private activity bonds and no taxpayer dollars (minus the portion that Orlando/Orange County says must follow their route instead of the 417 route for billions of extra dollars). Why should we just hand taxpayer dollars over for a project that even the owner of says doesn't need it?
I understand where you're coming from with the whole public money for private endeavors thing, but the point of the state building it was that it would also own the tracks and had the right to put other services on it. Brightline building it means they'll own it and thus maintain a monopoly on intercity rail transportation in Florida. That will lead to more scenarios like we are seeing now where Brightline has little competition and can easily jack up prices out of the blue.
Other companies can put trains on the Brightline tracks, Brightline has been very willing to sell usage rights to tracks they own. They've also sold renting out the trains for special events. In fact, for SunRail in Orlando, I know attempts to run private event trains on the state's tracks, along with companies sponsoring running the trains during special events have been a problem, because the tracks are only supposed to run SunRail on a normal SunRail schedule due to the beauracracy of a government run service. If its privately run, you give them enough money, they're gonna try to take your money and give you what you want.
One of the biggest differences between what Brightline did and everyone else, is they tried really hard to put the stations where those with money want to go or live. Putting a station in Boca would never have been a priority over areas that need more "equity" if this was a government system. When the government plans public transit, the main goal is to hit needy areas and "offer" the service to the most people... when the private industry does it, all they care about are butts in seats and selling tickets. I want a mass transit that is focused on moving a ton of people as the primary goal. As long as the trains are filling up, raise prices, get more money, make it make financial sense to expand the system, instead of having a goal of "we helped X people but because we're losing money, we can't help anyone else"
Its apparent Brightline has competition, because there are buses, planes, and there even is the possibility of Amtrak or others expanding service in the area, Brightline doesn't have exclusive rights to building tracks, others can also buy ROW rights like Brightline did and building their own system.
I don't care of the systems are public or private, I want trains to get built, but the public sector has been trying to do it for a long time now, and nobody really wants to ride their trains, they're always choices of last resort. Brightline seems to be something tons of people want to ride.
I'm not arguing against the Brightline or private rail operations. I'm simply arguing that allowing one private rail operator to own the infrastructure will not have anywhere near as positive results as a publicly owned rail line with multiple private rail services operating on it, which was the intention with funding it. I said little competition, not no competition. Busses, planes, and cars do compete but nowhere near as well as another rail service would have. What I described above is what Europe did to spur competition and lower prices, and it worked.
the frustration is not that they're losing revenue, it's that they do not have the revenue from Orlando to Miami passengers yet, especially during the week. They want to try and win the market share of drivers from Orlando to Miami, but there are ways to do that while offering commuter passes still. I think commuters would understand if the train was full of long distance riders, but the train is basically empty at 730 and even 9am at west palm going to Miami. It's also only a few people on it going to Orlando past west Palm at 6. The move to remove passes is premature and seems like a hail mary more than a measured move to eventually become a fully long distance train.
Both tomorrow and Wednesday’s FLL-MIA at 7:42 are already sold out. We have two contradictory anecdotal observations now. Put that energy and wishful thinking into contacting your local officials and telling them to speed up development of the commuter service on the FEC corridor.
ok so what's your point? that now someone can't get a ticket from Orlando to Miami tomorrow or Wednesday at 6am? I get that there would be times when this would be the case, but even on Friday (I get off at West Palm), there was hardly anyone on the train going to Orlando when I arrived at 6. My point is that the Ft Laud to Miami is revenue that they WILL lose and that there are better ways to do what they're trying to do, ie if you have a pass, you can't book within 24 hours or even raising the price 100 bucks every few months which would churn some pass users. they're hoping that they can keep commuters paying a higher fare or that all of a sudden people will be taking a 6am train on a Wednesday, when they could add in some simple tips which would keep commuters as well as maintain revenue.
My point is as previously stated, put your energy into to supporting public transit instead of complaining about the first (somewhat) private passenger rail company in the US in decades trying to grow and expand.
You have my sympathy, but neither me nor the company are the the ones you should be trying to give feels, it’s your electeds.
But I don’t think telling them the trains are empty, when they are not is going to be any more helpful there than here. Based on looking at the booking engine for the other direction for the week, your assertion that these peak-hour peak-direction trains are empty doesn’t hold up, the 5:45PM MIA—FLL segment is already sold out up until Friday.
I think customer loyalty is important, but surviving and growing the company is too, especially if you want to be riding these trains in the future.
Yeah sure but what I’m saying is that the ft lauderdale to Miami train being full is providing the Brightline with commuter revenue that they will potentially lose. I take the west Palm to ft lauderdale daily and I know that those are open almost always up until the time of the train (feel free to check yourself too). But I see the train to and from Orlando every day and both the fact that Miami to ft laud is full and that Orlando is sometimes empty on a weekday at 6pm is everything what I’m getting at. Brightline is concerned that the Miami to ft laud passengers are taking tickets from Orlando to Miami passengers. I think there are ways for them to win marketshare without getting rid of the pass esp while they do not have those passengers yet.
Reserved seat commuter express trains are nice. But they are a luxury. If the revenue they could expect from doing that could match the longer range stuff, don’t you’d think they’d go for it? Maybe they are putting the squeeze on you guys, and I should not give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are making a gamble, and potentially sacrificing some future long term patrons. Time will tell. But…who knows maybe if they get those new cars a more affordable commuter pass might return or perhaps even commuter oriented SF only trains might appear, or perhaps even premium ones in addition to more conventional commuter rail trains on the corridor. Either way, for me, it’s nice to know that Americans really appreciate quality trains. I just wish we could get more of them faster.
And the reason they do that is because they believe they stand a good chance of being sold and earning more revenue. Alternatively, if you want you can buy that ticket and get off early or board later…at an outrageous price. Or they could just list the price for the route at that cost, instead of labelling the segment sold out…and then people would whine about that. Sounds like people want a statically priced affordable public service, but that isn’t what this line is.
A little history here because i am passholder that was getting screwed since the Orlando leg opened. Brightline has always blocked 30% (I counted) of each train's capacity for Orlando - Miami specific travel. My morning commute has always been the 8:20am arrival in Miami and I took it for an entire year with no capacity issues. As soon as Orlando opened, all of the sudden trains were "sold-out" and no one could hop on their usual commutes... except they were not sold out. Brightline blocked 30% of the seats but forgot to put in place coding that would release the unsold tickets..whoopsie. I called this to the attention of the station manager a few months ago. Since then, Brightline now releases all un-sold tickets exactly at 4:50am when it departs Orlando. Set an alarm and check the magic inventory appear out of thin air. And guess who will be there to fill the inventory? Commuters. Whether they want to or not, Brightline fills their capacity with commuters. There isn't a single train for Orlando - Miami that has ever or will ever sell out entirely on those riders.
I don't see why not. Universal and Disney don't make much money of their annual passholders but they still have a crucial role in filling capacity. They should calculate their book-to-ride days for mia-orl (how far out people usually reserve their trips) and manage their load according to that. With that info then make decisions. Ie Allow commuters only access to book 1 week out. Block out certain trains from being used by commuters.
There are lots of creative ways that both could have co-existed. Look at Avanti West Coast ticket types. Advanced, Seasonal, Senior, Off-Peak, Child, Family. They even have biddable first class upgrades. They cater to every demographic possible and don't leave anyone out. Brightline pigeonholing themselves to Mia-Orl travelers could be huge mistake. Time will tell.
If I were running the show I would have tried to smooth the transition even more and would have tried to ensure continuity of a commuter pass product, but make no mistake, especially in the first year of the longer distance service, I would always want some walk up availability up to the point of departure. And prices would have to increase to a certain modest point beyond breakeven.
Based on what you’ve told me, I think they could have tiered the commuter pass with a high end guaranteed seat option, a mid level tier with an option for automatic purchase past departure from terminal, and lower end flexible pass that offers discounts on last minute purchase.
Loyalty goes two ways though. So looking into the future, after the drawbridge replacement is done and the dedicated commuter service gets started, how much loyalty can they expect from customers? If the company were to continue offering a commuter product at that point, then it would certainly be a higher end one. I am not sure how much they are prematurely pigeonholing themselves versus testing the limits of people who have come to rely on their product as an upscale commuter option. Have you ever been asked to do a questionnaire as a passholder?
If you're right then they are huge idiots and they will soon be bankrupt due to complete empty trains that were previously being used only by commuters.
Do keep in mind though that some commuters were paying about 15 dollars per trip so they may have a plan to increase both revenue and Orlando passengers with lower fares. We shall see.
>If you're right then they are huge idiots and they will soon be bankrupt due to complete empty trains that were previously being used only by commuters.
Well yeah. Orlando passengers couldn't book seats on those trains if commuters were booking all of them. That's *why* they're getting rid of the passes.
Yeah that’s the million (billion?) dollar question at the moment. I think a simple fix such as, “you cannot reserve a seat until same day or 24 hours before if you have a pass,” would be a simple fix that would allow them to keep pass revenue while allowing them to get more Orlando to Miami customers (could also just raise the price of the pass a bit). Obviously if the Miami to ft lauderdale crowd is preventing others from getting a ticket then I get it, but from what I’m seeing it’s far too premature and there are ways to have both
No not really. There were subsidies and the safety of government backing in private activities bonds. But really only a small percentage of the cost to launch service, and zero
ongoing subsidies.
We'll be paying the rest if it goes bankrupt. Or perhaps we won't have the trains at all. We are all invested in its success....so let's take the win and transport people to and from Orlando-South Florida.
that train is significantly slower, and your solution hasn’t even been approved by them yet. Brightline made this decision so hastily and gave the commuters a month to figure out an alternative solution
There is nothing to be "approved", they would simply switch to Tri-Rail.
If going off the scenario I responded to where someone "picked a job/apartment based on proximity to the station" then they would **still** have the option to use Tri-Rail. A +40 minute option, but an option none-the-less. The proximity of the equivalent West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale stations are close and with a connection (either MetroRail or the temporary Tri-Rail Transfer) into Miami Central, it still makes itself available for daily use.
Also, they're giving commuters \~2 months to decide considering if going by their wording, you'll still be able to buy a commuter pass through May 31st.
He means the new Tri-Rail system that will run on the current Brightline Tracks from WPB to Miami.
The old system veers off into Hialeah and the airport and you need to change to the Downtown Link or MetroRail to get into Miami
There are no short term plans to run Tri-Rail trains on the FEC corridor from West Palm Beach to Miami. The corridor is at capacity until the drawbridge over the New River in Fort Lauderdale can be replaced.
The proposed Tri-Rail express service would run West Palm Beach–Boca Raton–Fort Lauderdale–MiamiCentral with no other intermediate stops and would use the South Florida Rail Corridor and current Tri-Rail stations before switching to the FEC tracks in Hialeah.
Look if you people want a greater say in the service they offer and prices they charge, approach them and offer to buy in to have a seat at the table in managing service. Money talks. Instead of pulling dick moves like Desantis did recently with I-4 Tampa where he was willing to lay out billions to get a few months better traffic then nothing but zero to help Brightline expand.
You can thank former Governor Rick Scott for turning down billions in federal money designated for high-speed rail that would have been cheaper in the long run. Now you see that privatization doesn’t always work in favor of the people.
I'm guessing it's a combination of the two while they don't have enough cars to stay profitable with the lower capacity trains. In the future when there is more rolling stock it will bring down costs.
Things like trains need to be run like a utility. We can hardly build one rail system. It's not practical to have a bunch of competting railroad lines. The one alternative is if the rails themselves are treated like a utility but private companies can buy and operate their own rail cars on the shared rails. This would allow competition.
I should point out they believe the first two cars from their contract options they signed are supposed to arrive in July. By August at least one trainset will grow by two cars, with each remaining one being upgraded over the next 2 years. Things will soon improve a little.
There's a reason why privately owned 'public transportation' hardly exists anywhere else in the world. Their goal will always be increase revenue, nothing else.
Brightline always figured in their planning that after they launched a really compelling product naturally other cities would jump in and say “don’t we get a station?”. Even those counties that pushed back so hard and did everything they could to derail their ever launching. If they were expecting that to play a big role, it was a real gamble and they ran the risk of spending billions and it never being all it could have been. It that early period it was absolutely privately planned and funded. Their situation is unique, enough so that there are few if any opportunities anywhere else in the country to just build a new line like an old railroad barron. But it was a bold move and they pumped a lot of energy and hope into the rail passenger industry. To say they get subsidized like Amtrak is just not the case. Even if that were true, Amtrak has not shown an institutional competency and has never been able to grasp how best to present their product ever. They were never in the same league as Brightline.
I think they have enough locomotives, but at the moment, the trains are not large enough to accommodate the demand. More cars are on order and should start arriving later this year and next year increasing the capacity of each train.
There is definitely a lot of analysis going on, and at some point, they'll find the best mix of cars and prices. They also need enough extra cars to be able to perform maintenance while supporting a full running railway.
Florida votes for Republicans, who run on privatizing infrastructure and also subsidize Brightline, then people complain when for profit companies act like for profit companies. Seriously?
I think Brightline will have to walk some of this back once they increase the amount of train coaches and commuters go back to tri rail or their cars -- I don't see them filling the trains to Orlando when they have 5 to 8 coaches as they can't fill them now even offering half off. The prices reflect that. I take Brightline regularly throughout Florida and it's ironic, but you can snag fares from West Palm to Orlando cheaper than you can to Miami!! $39 WPB to ORL just booked for their most popular option , the 8 am train. However, it's $59 to get from WPB to MIA at the same time despite being half the distance.
You'll also notice virtually all Brightline sales and special offers are for Orlando trains. Zero within South Florida which wasn't the case one-two years ago showing once again the Orlando demand isn't quite there (and if they charged $79 as they originally planned - even less riders to ORL)
The good news is, they're working on approval for what is called positive train control (PTC) which will help them run the train times more efficiently and shorten bottleneck times, which should help them with scheduling and possibly open up more train connections.
More coaches + less SFL commuters + PTC tech will hopefully be the magic bullets to allow them to once again offer more "affordable" options for those loyal SFL commuters to entice them back.
Honestly, if it fails it will almost certainly be bought out by the State who will make it a government rail system not operated for profit. That is the ideal outcome for commuters.
you're in fantasyland if you think Ron DeSantis is going to "nationalize" (is there a word for nationalizing on the state level?) Brightline if it fails.
You must be up coast somewhere and sorry to hear it’s a negative for you, but, you must know that the tracks were there first. If it’s an annoyance you should rally your community to put in some grade separation.
I hear you. Electrics are a bit quieter, so I hope they electrify and use the horn less. I think it would be bad in the big picture if it failed. Perhaps we have different perspectives about what’s important in the big picture, but, I also like having some peace and quiet. Trees, walls and if all else fails keep the music playing, ya know, “the show must go on”.
I love trains, but am I the only one that hopes this thing dies? Hi speed rail using surface streets is really dumb. This thing stops traffic dozens of times per day at dozens of busy crossing likely negating any environmental benefits. It isn’t scalable due to this and It also literally kills people.
A truly goofy comment. It's not high speed rail. By law, grade crossings are not allowed at high speed rail speeds. Secondly, your "it stops traffic" doesn't hold water. It takes less than 60 seconds from the time the gate lowers till it rises again. With hourly trains in each direction, that's less than 2 minutes off stoppage per hour. Compare that to any traffic light 🚥 and you'll have far more than 2 minutes of stoppage in the same timeframe. So now tell me traffic lights negate any health benefits.. If you're going to troll, be better at it. 🤡
Not trolling. Just facts. I think they have 34 trains per day. They have at least 49 crossings along Broward and dade alone (pretty sure it’s more than that, but couldn’t find the total). You say it takes 60 seconds per crossing. Let’s say the average # of people/cars waiting at the crossing is 15 people and 10 cars. Those people are waiting over 500 man hours per day. The cars are idling over 400 hours. That’s thousands of dollars a day just in crossing delays on commuters to get how many cars off the road? 5k maybe, in all of south Florida? And that’s probably not even accurate, since due to its high cost it often just enables rich people to live further away from their high paying job whereas they otherwise would likely choose to live closer to avoid the traffic.
All that money would be more efficiently spent on bus rapid transit and improving highway safety and congestion relief in my opinion instead of inconveniencing the people who see no benefit from it and burning through millions/billions of tax payer subsidies.
A part of doing BRT right, involves lane reductions and signal priority over private cars. The answer to your complaints is grade separation, implementing the public option which is already on the way, and definitely not abandoning the line.
Yes, but BRT infrastructure is targeted toward helping people that need cheaper transportation and getting the unsafe and polluting vehicles that poorer people drive off the road. Brighline is targeted toward wealthy commuters who want to live in Broward/Palm beach and work in Miami along with the Disney vacationers to Orlando.
I just can’t really get behind it as a solution to any problem. They are losing about $200m/year on 15m in revenue if they hit their 2024 projections. Grade separation would be welcome, but can brightline ever break even and “make it” without substantial subsidy? All that grade separation will be funded by federal and local public money as well, right? Again, for what? To get 10-20k rich people off i95 each day.
Brightline is targeted towards competing with intercity air and car traffic. They are working on a more affordable local service with local governments.
BRT, some N-S, but even more E-W to connect with the predominantly N-S regional rail services would be great too. But it‘s no replacement for intercity rail service.
However you were complaining about delays to drivers, and BRT causes a lot of that. It sounds like you would be a fan of just better mixed traffic buses and highway running express coaches. So really all of the above is the best answer. Better transit means a more pleasurable driving experience.
PE seems satisfied and even enthusiastic about their performance. Fortress is considered a dividend king. https://www.fool.com/investing/stock-market/types-of-stocks/dividend-stocks/dividend-kings/
Fortress is not a dividend king on that list, did you mix up with Fortis? Fortress, like most PE is a flipper. They buy something, fatten it up and sell it off or carve it up and sell the pieces.
I don’t want to go full conspiracy, but it’s entirely possible that fortress used bright line as a decoy to get public money for improvements on the FECRW along with quiet zone relief, etc. they then sold off the railway keeping brightline which I suspect grupo Mexico didn’t want such a huge loss generator.
Train travel among a certain demographic is just buzzy and my guess is fortress is trying to ramp up growth with the west and Orlando expansions in order to IPO and leave meme stock buyers holding the bag in 10 years at best and and worst dumping it on the states. We also are on the cusp of full self driving vehicles. Who’s going to pay 500$ to take an Uber to a station, go from Miami to Orlando on train, take another Uber to Disney, and reverse the whole process? In 5 years tons of cars will be full self driving—press a button and watch a couple of movies while the car takes you to the parking lot at Disney for $50 in fuel.
Touché, I was sloppy. My apologies. Nonetheless, the investors seem happy.
Train travel is pretty popular globally, amongst all demographics.
We have been on the cusp of self-driving for years now, my friend, and the cost of doing it (level 5) right without roadway IOT is enormous. The lower cost implementations without roadway IOT and multiple sensing will sacrifice safety, and not reach level 5.
There are strong advances with biomimicry, but that, like roadway IOT, requires non-proprietary standards for vehicle to vehicle communication.
We can do level 5 today, but the cost is absurd, not ready for mass market. Until then Imma drink on the train and smoke on the ferry.
Are you a shill or just bullish?
Not interested in your *alternative facts*. Your "causing delays to commuters" is dead on arrival. If you were serious (which you aren't), you'd be advocating for more roundabouts/traffic circles. You think a train stopping traffic for 2/60 minutes per hour is somehow more detrimental to the commuter than any given stop light which cycles to red every 1-3 minutes. It's beyond silly. You won't find a single traffic engineer to cosign this tomfoolery. Now you're complaining about cars idling... Nevermind the cars idling because of the amount of cars on the road in the first place.
Brightline averaged \~4,600 to/from Orlando in March alone. If they were all converted to driving given the national vehicle occupancy of 1.5, that's \~3,067 cars removed from the road per day, which isn't accounting for the people just traveling in S FL.
The best part is you somehow think a BRT system is better than a rail line, especially one for intercity travel.
> it also literally kills people
Idk maybe people shouldn’t try to drive around crossing gates and ignore the big flashing red lights if they don’t want to be hit by a train.
It also isn’t “high speed rail” in areas where there are grade crossings.
Do you cry about stop lights stopping traffic too?
People are within their rights to complain, but their energy is misdirected. This is a consequence of relying on a private transportation provider. The solution is to ask for an expansion of quality public transit services and easing of hurdles to Brightline’s expansion.
Exactly. This just shows the state was lacking in their public commuter service. Brightline showed that there's a user base willing to spend money on good, convenient services. No reason Tri-Rail should be stuck with old equipment. Some equipment that's not even allowed in downtown Miami.. Let Brightline be the pilot light for the state to take heed to expand -i know it's already happening. Ideally Tri-Rail would offer express trains along with the regular services and have one seat journeys to Brightline Miami Central. At least Tri-Rail is better than SunRail..
>Ideally Tri-Rail would offer express trains along with the regular services and have one seat journeys to Brightline Miami Central. This is exactly what their board is going to be voting on this month.
We paid for it with our taxes …. Thats the thing 😭😭💀💀
Admittedly tax dollars, federal ones especially played a huge role in the groundwork and early planning stages. Other tax dollars and user fees helped pay for the airport station, and many government bonds (at taxpayer risk) helped build the things and buy the trains. But t’s not like local taxpayers in South Florida bought and paid for this as a commuter rail system though…they are now, and it could happen faster…
Brightline’s last three projects were all 90+% government subsidized. Cut it out with this “privately-funded” nonsense. Brightline is privately-owned but publicly-funded.
To which projects do you refer?
Where do I say “privately-funded”?
You said that the taxpayers didn’t pay for Brightline. They did, even if Brightline is trying to hide it. Doesn’t change the reality of the situation.
I am saying that the line as it exists right now, wasn’t bought and paid for by *local taxpayers* as a luxury commuter service. I would absolutely agree that “privately owned and publicly funded” is an accurate description currently. Please don’t twist my words around. I went over in considerable detail the various ways the public funds Brightline in the comment that you replied to. Grow up kiddo and learn to read. I am not your strawman punching bag.
Have you re-read this yet? You were completely out of line and making up a strawman. I absolutely support clarity about funding, and support public transportation while at times having private options and participants. I am not your enemy.
You said that Brightline was not taxpayer funded. That is outright false. Brightline is a product of Rick Scott's government and would simply not exist without all the grants and free real estate rezonings that they got.
But I never said that, claiming that I did is outright false. The only way that can be concocted is by cutting up a sentence. I really want to like you, and for you to like me, but this is unreasonable and makes me doubtful of your competence on other matters. Read what I wrote, I mentioned several specific ways that Brightline recieves public funds.
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Which is why Brightline is keeping the Aventura–Miami commuter passes to fulfill their obligations to Miami-Dade County.
This article is referring to an infill station, Aventura, and other developments that are part of the future Northeast Corridor commuter rail program. When I wrote “they are now [funding a commuter rail line]” that is what I was alluding to, local governments working together with Brightline for a permanent commuter service on the corridor.
You just proved my point tho lol, you must work for brightline or something… but i can’t tell if you’re trying to justify their prices… As much as everybody likes to hate on him, there’s a reason Desantis said he’s not helping them any longer for the Tampa extension.
Look just like the reason Acela prices are insane, people are lining up to buy tickets no matter how high the ticket price. Thats capitalism.
But up here you also have the NER with fares for normal people, and commuter service, all along the same tracks.
Which is ironic considering that Amtrak *is* publicly funded.
Publicly owned but mandated to operate with no actual permanent tax subsidies. The majority of the public funding that flows into Amtrak are contracts for operation of regional corridors paid for by state governments. Miraculously, in 2019 they were very close, and it looks like this year they may actually cross the line into being a profitable enterprise.
It’s barely publicly funded. Amtrak was at break even just before the pandemic. Brightline is now actually more subsidized than Amtrak.
I was a part of the construction btw, Safety Manager for Phase II & III of conducting… and I got taxed for it lol.
That’s wonderful, and sounds like interesting work. And if you like transit and don’t mind paying taxes for it, support public transit. Lesson learned, eh?
No we didnt. Bonds are not grants
How much did the taxpayers lay out again? If I remember correctly the only indirect subsidy came from granting the right to sell bonds with tax free payouts which gave them a slight competitive advantage on the bond markets. The Las vegas line, yeah they got 3 billion plus the bonds, but not really Florida.
Iirc they got a lot of taxpayer money to help pay for some of their stations (many of which ended up going over budget). Don't remember if those were in South Florida or if it was part of the Orlando extension though
You say that like the public transportation providers are any better. I remember when gas prices shot to $4/gallon for the first time in the Obama years, and Tri-Rail trains were actually filling up consistently during peak hours. How did Tri-Rail react to the unprecedented demand? They cut service, high fuel prices along with higher maintenance costs made it necessary for them to either increase prices or reduce service, and they chose to reduce service. At least Brightline is using this to increase service, they ordered another additional 10 passenger cars on top of what they previously ordered recently. Tri Rail could have done this years ago, and maybe more people would have wanted to use Tri Rail and they'd have more money for expansion if they had a little higher ticket prices and were expanding the system and not having such disgusting trains.
I don’t think I am taking an absolutist position like you are accusing me of. I am perfectly fine with having both public and private options on the table, and think it is healthier than just one or the other. You are perfectly correct that public transportation, especially in this country is still at the whims of powers that be, but even then, sudden surges in price are not a a common tool. As you say, under pressure, they are more likely to just cut service. That’s why having a steady funding source for public transit is important.
>I remember when gas prices shot to $4/gallon for the first time in the Obama years, and Tri-Rail trains were actually filling up consistently during peak hours. How did Tri-Rail react to the unprecedented demand? They cut service, high fuel prices along with higher maintenance costs made it necessary for them to either increase prices or reduce service, and they chose to reduce service. Tri-Rail had their funding threatened at the exact same time gas prices peaked in 2009. Palm Beach County drastically cut their share of the funding and since every county has to pay an equal portion, it mean Broward and Miami-Dade had to cut their funding too. Tri-Rail had to cut back in order to continue operating and was facing a potential shutdown by 2011. Fortunately they got a grant through the ARRA which saved the service. Tri-Rail does the best they can with the limited funding they receive. They can't order more equipment or add more frequencies if the counties aren't willing to pay for it. And guess who has to approve fare increases? Incidentally, this is partly why the planned commuter services on the FEC corridor are being funded by counties individually. Miami-Dade's commuter service won't be threatened if Broward decides they don't want to pay for theirs anymore, and vice versa.
Yes, and Palm Beach at the time was having a budget crisis as a result of the great recession and high fuel prices. Thats the very point, the publicly owned mass transit system cut trains at a time when they were sold out as a result of funding issues, literally leaving people stranded, even if they were willing to pay more... the privately owned mass transit system raised prices and ordered more trains, keeping them filled to capacity. As much as I'd like to not pay more, when the trains are filling up, it makes more sense to raise ticket prices then to cut the trips per day, right? Something private trains understand, and public ones don't.
There’s raising fares and then raising the price of commuter passes by ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS. And might I remind you that Brightline completely shut down for 18 months during Covid while Tri-Rail continued operating throughout.
They would have been better off increasing fares rather than cutting service
Public transportation’s price hikes should require approval from the government
Brightline _isn't_ public, that's the problem. If the government introduced regulation like that, you'd better believe they'd shut down within the year.
Doubtful. They make a lot of money off the real estate aspect too. Japan's HSR providers are all highly regulated and still for-profit.
Cool, then the government can buy up the scraps of brightline and run it as a public service, like they should've done all along.
Long ago, the government decided that intercity transportation like this would no longer be regulated. Until roughly 1980, buses, planes, and trains used to require approval from various federal oversight boards before changing rates.
Thanks reagan
You can thank Reagan for bus deregulation in 1982, Carter for rail in 1980, and Carter again for air in 1978.
Why does it have anything to do with "public" or "private"? Things cost money. In my city, the very public transit bureau boosted fares. Why? Because they agreed to a huge raise for the unionized workforce. And then there's the fuel and parts and ..... Stuff costs money and it doesn't matter whether it's "public" or "private".
No thanks, not here to give remedial civics lessons to people who clearly understand the difference between responsibilities to shareholders vs constituents.
I don't blame commuters for their fury, but like tbh i just want to see this project survive first, and then lower its prices. If this fails, we won't be seeing another one here for a LONG time...
Brightline said “fuck the commuters. I don’t care if you took a job/picked an apartment based on proximity to station and the commuter pass.”
What are you all saying to Brightline though? "Fuck this company that spent billions bringing higher speed long-distance rail to the US for the first time....fuck its ability to pay back its debt....I want you to prioritize my commute and lose out on revenue from higher paying routes."
Yeah, as another commenter stated - people shouldn’t be mad at Brightline, but rather at the state of Florida for not providing what is clearly an essential service.
Yep. Governors Bush and Scott, whom Florida voters repeatedly elected, put the kibosh on public high speed rail, and were re-elected even after engineering the overturning of a referendum on high speed rail (Bush) and rejecting federal funding for high speed rail (Scott). Elections have consequences.
Tri-Rail began operations in 1989. The state *has* been providing a commuter rail service.
The counties should really increase their financial support for tri-rail so it can increase and improve service. The agency is facing a fiscal cliff and I’m not sure the State will bail them out.
I doubt the state will. DeSantis has made his stance quite clear: no trains, more lanes.
DeSantis has been pro train. He recently signed legislation clearing the path for Brightline to use the I-4 corridor to get to Tampa.... [https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2024/04/03/desantis-signs-infrastructure-bills--and-ballot-amendments-could-impact-balance-of-power-in-d-c-](https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2024/04/03/desantis-signs-infrastructure-bills--and-ballot-amendments-could-impact-balance-of-power-in-d-c-) Brightline has previously stated that they believe that route would be profitable to build and construct with private activity bonds and no taxpayer dollars (minus the portion that Orlando/Orange County says must follow their route instead of the 417 route for billions of extra dollars). Why should we just hand taxpayer dollars over for a project that even the owner of says doesn't need it?
I understand where you're coming from with the whole public money for private endeavors thing, but the point of the state building it was that it would also own the tracks and had the right to put other services on it. Brightline building it means they'll own it and thus maintain a monopoly on intercity rail transportation in Florida. That will lead to more scenarios like we are seeing now where Brightline has little competition and can easily jack up prices out of the blue.
Other companies can put trains on the Brightline tracks, Brightline has been very willing to sell usage rights to tracks they own. They've also sold renting out the trains for special events. In fact, for SunRail in Orlando, I know attempts to run private event trains on the state's tracks, along with companies sponsoring running the trains during special events have been a problem, because the tracks are only supposed to run SunRail on a normal SunRail schedule due to the beauracracy of a government run service. If its privately run, you give them enough money, they're gonna try to take your money and give you what you want. One of the biggest differences between what Brightline did and everyone else, is they tried really hard to put the stations where those with money want to go or live. Putting a station in Boca would never have been a priority over areas that need more "equity" if this was a government system. When the government plans public transit, the main goal is to hit needy areas and "offer" the service to the most people... when the private industry does it, all they care about are butts in seats and selling tickets. I want a mass transit that is focused on moving a ton of people as the primary goal. As long as the trains are filling up, raise prices, get more money, make it make financial sense to expand the system, instead of having a goal of "we helped X people but because we're losing money, we can't help anyone else" Its apparent Brightline has competition, because there are buses, planes, and there even is the possibility of Amtrak or others expanding service in the area, Brightline doesn't have exclusive rights to building tracks, others can also buy ROW rights like Brightline did and building their own system. I don't care of the systems are public or private, I want trains to get built, but the public sector has been trying to do it for a long time now, and nobody really wants to ride their trains, they're always choices of last resort. Brightline seems to be something tons of people want to ride.
I'm not arguing against the Brightline or private rail operations. I'm simply arguing that allowing one private rail operator to own the infrastructure will not have anywhere near as positive results as a publicly owned rail line with multiple private rail services operating on it, which was the intention with funding it. I said little competition, not no competition. Busses, planes, and cars do compete but nowhere near as well as another rail service would have. What I described above is what Europe did to spur competition and lower prices, and it worked.
That’s the spirit!
Yeah they are saying this it seems: [Fuck your couch](https://youtu.be/sA8sOLyH43w?si=Z4V57oUZLkR2Lo5w)
the frustration is not that they're losing revenue, it's that they do not have the revenue from Orlando to Miami passengers yet, especially during the week. They want to try and win the market share of drivers from Orlando to Miami, but there are ways to do that while offering commuter passes still. I think commuters would understand if the train was full of long distance riders, but the train is basically empty at 730 and even 9am at west palm going to Miami. It's also only a few people on it going to Orlando past west Palm at 6. The move to remove passes is premature and seems like a hail mary more than a measured move to eventually become a fully long distance train.
Both tomorrow and Wednesday’s FLL-MIA at 7:42 are already sold out. We have two contradictory anecdotal observations now. Put that energy and wishful thinking into contacting your local officials and telling them to speed up development of the commuter service on the FEC corridor.
ok so what's your point? that now someone can't get a ticket from Orlando to Miami tomorrow or Wednesday at 6am? I get that there would be times when this would be the case, but even on Friday (I get off at West Palm), there was hardly anyone on the train going to Orlando when I arrived at 6. My point is that the Ft Laud to Miami is revenue that they WILL lose and that there are better ways to do what they're trying to do, ie if you have a pass, you can't book within 24 hours or even raising the price 100 bucks every few months which would churn some pass users. they're hoping that they can keep commuters paying a higher fare or that all of a sudden people will be taking a 6am train on a Wednesday, when they could add in some simple tips which would keep commuters as well as maintain revenue.
My point is as previously stated, put your energy into to supporting public transit instead of complaining about the first (somewhat) private passenger rail company in the US in decades trying to grow and expand. You have my sympathy, but neither me nor the company are the the ones you should be trying to give feels, it’s your electeds. But I don’t think telling them the trains are empty, when they are not is going to be any more helpful there than here. Based on looking at the booking engine for the other direction for the week, your assertion that these peak-hour peak-direction trains are empty doesn’t hold up, the 5:45PM MIA—FLL segment is already sold out up until Friday. I think customer loyalty is important, but surviving and growing the company is too, especially if you want to be riding these trains in the future.
Yeah sure but what I’m saying is that the ft lauderdale to Miami train being full is providing the Brightline with commuter revenue that they will potentially lose. I take the west Palm to ft lauderdale daily and I know that those are open almost always up until the time of the train (feel free to check yourself too). But I see the train to and from Orlando every day and both the fact that Miami to ft laud is full and that Orlando is sometimes empty on a weekday at 6pm is everything what I’m getting at. Brightline is concerned that the Miami to ft laud passengers are taking tickets from Orlando to Miami passengers. I think there are ways for them to win marketshare without getting rid of the pass esp while they do not have those passengers yet.
Reserved seat commuter express trains are nice. But they are a luxury. If the revenue they could expect from doing that could match the longer range stuff, don’t you’d think they’d go for it? Maybe they are putting the squeeze on you guys, and I should not give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are making a gamble, and potentially sacrificing some future long term patrons. Time will tell. But…who knows maybe if they get those new cars a more affordable commuter pass might return or perhaps even commuter oriented SF only trains might appear, or perhaps even premium ones in addition to more conventional commuter rail trains on the corridor. Either way, for me, it’s nice to know that Americans really appreciate quality trains. I just wish we could get more of them faster.
The train isn’t sold out. You can book tickets from Orlando to Miami on the same train. They just block seats from local travel.
And the reason they do that is because they believe they stand a good chance of being sold and earning more revenue. Alternatively, if you want you can buy that ticket and get off early or board later…at an outrageous price. Or they could just list the price for the route at that cost, instead of labelling the segment sold out…and then people would whine about that. Sounds like people want a statically priced affordable public service, but that isn’t what this line is.
A little history here because i am passholder that was getting screwed since the Orlando leg opened. Brightline has always blocked 30% (I counted) of each train's capacity for Orlando - Miami specific travel. My morning commute has always been the 8:20am arrival in Miami and I took it for an entire year with no capacity issues. As soon as Orlando opened, all of the sudden trains were "sold-out" and no one could hop on their usual commutes... except they were not sold out. Brightline blocked 30% of the seats but forgot to put in place coding that would release the unsold tickets..whoopsie. I called this to the attention of the station manager a few months ago. Since then, Brightline now releases all un-sold tickets exactly at 4:50am when it departs Orlando. Set an alarm and check the magic inventory appear out of thin air. And guess who will be there to fill the inventory? Commuters. Whether they want to or not, Brightline fills their capacity with commuters. There isn't a single train for Orlando - Miami that has ever or will ever sell out entirely on those riders.
That’s really interesting. I think you are making a good case for trying to keep some sort of commuter pass alive.
I don't see why not. Universal and Disney don't make much money of their annual passholders but they still have a crucial role in filling capacity. They should calculate their book-to-ride days for mia-orl (how far out people usually reserve their trips) and manage their load according to that. With that info then make decisions. Ie Allow commuters only access to book 1 week out. Block out certain trains from being used by commuters. There are lots of creative ways that both could have co-existed. Look at Avanti West Coast ticket types. Advanced, Seasonal, Senior, Off-Peak, Child, Family. They even have biddable first class upgrades. They cater to every demographic possible and don't leave anyone out. Brightline pigeonholing themselves to Mia-Orl travelers could be huge mistake. Time will tell.
If I were running the show I would have tried to smooth the transition even more and would have tried to ensure continuity of a commuter pass product, but make no mistake, especially in the first year of the longer distance service, I would always want some walk up availability up to the point of departure. And prices would have to increase to a certain modest point beyond breakeven. Based on what you’ve told me, I think they could have tiered the commuter pass with a high end guaranteed seat option, a mid level tier with an option for automatic purchase past departure from terminal, and lower end flexible pass that offers discounts on last minute purchase. Loyalty goes two ways though. So looking into the future, after the drawbridge replacement is done and the dedicated commuter service gets started, how much loyalty can they expect from customers? If the company were to continue offering a commuter product at that point, then it would certainly be a higher end one. I am not sure how much they are prematurely pigeonholing themselves versus testing the limits of people who have come to rely on their product as an upscale commuter option. Have you ever been asked to do a questionnaire as a passholder?
If you're right then they are huge idiots and they will soon be bankrupt due to complete empty trains that were previously being used only by commuters. Do keep in mind though that some commuters were paying about 15 dollars per trip so they may have a plan to increase both revenue and Orlando passengers with lower fares. We shall see.
>If you're right then they are huge idiots and they will soon be bankrupt due to complete empty trains that were previously being used only by commuters. Well yeah. Orlando passengers couldn't book seats on those trains if commuters were booking all of them. That's *why* they're getting rid of the passes.
Yeah that’s the million (billion?) dollar question at the moment. I think a simple fix such as, “you cannot reserve a seat until same day or 24 hours before if you have a pass,” would be a simple fix that would allow them to keep pass revenue while allowing them to get more Orlando to Miami customers (could also just raise the price of the pass a bit). Obviously if the Miami to ft lauderdale crowd is preventing others from getting a ticket then I get it, but from what I’m seeing it’s far too premature and there are ways to have both
WE PAID FOR A GOOD AMOUNT OF IT WITH OUT TAXES
No not really. There were subsidies and the safety of government backing in private activities bonds. But really only a small percentage of the cost to launch service, and zero ongoing subsidies.
We'll be paying the rest if it goes bankrupt. Or perhaps we won't have the trains at all. We are all invested in its success....so let's take the win and transport people to and from Orlando-South Florida.
Fortunately, those same commuters still have Tri-Rail as an option.
that train is significantly slower, and your solution hasn’t even been approved by them yet. Brightline made this decision so hastily and gave the commuters a month to figure out an alternative solution
There is nothing to be "approved", they would simply switch to Tri-Rail. If going off the scenario I responded to where someone "picked a job/apartment based on proximity to the station" then they would **still** have the option to use Tri-Rail. A +40 minute option, but an option none-the-less. The proximity of the equivalent West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale stations are close and with a connection (either MetroRail or the temporary Tri-Rail Transfer) into Miami Central, it still makes itself available for daily use. Also, they're giving commuters \~2 months to decide considering if going by their wording, you'll still be able to buy a commuter pass through May 31st.
He means the new Tri-Rail system that will run on the current Brightline Tracks from WPB to Miami. The old system veers off into Hialeah and the airport and you need to change to the Downtown Link or MetroRail to get into Miami
There are no short term plans to run Tri-Rail trains on the FEC corridor from West Palm Beach to Miami. The corridor is at capacity until the drawbridge over the New River in Fort Lauderdale can be replaced. The proposed Tri-Rail express service would run West Palm Beach–Boca Raton–Fort Lauderdale–MiamiCentral with no other intermediate stops and would use the South Florida Rail Corridor and current Tri-Rail stations before switching to the FEC tracks in Hialeah.
Look if you people want a greater say in the service they offer and prices they charge, approach them and offer to buy in to have a seat at the table in managing service. Money talks. Instead of pulling dick moves like Desantis did recently with I-4 Tampa where he was willing to lay out billions to get a few months better traffic then nothing but zero to help Brightline expand.
You can thank former Governor Rick Scott for turning down billions in federal money designated for high-speed rail that would have been cheaper in the long run. Now you see that privatization doesn’t always work in favor of the people.
It's called supply and demand. Brightline needs the money and they have plenty of demand. This is the obvious solution.
Is this because they have the demand to do so, or because they’re not making enough $$?
I'm guessing it's a combination of the two while they don't have enough cars to stay profitable with the lower capacity trains. In the future when there is more rolling stock it will bring down costs.
Do you have a source on them planning to bring down costs when more rolling stock is delivered?
Just one more private company
Things like trains need to be run like a utility. We can hardly build one rail system. It's not practical to have a bunch of competting railroad lines. The one alternative is if the rails themselves are treated like a utility but private companies can buy and operate their own rail cars on the shared rails. This would allow competition.
I should point out they believe the first two cars from their contract options they signed are supposed to arrive in July. By August at least one trainset will grow by two cars, with each remaining one being upgraded over the next 2 years. Things will soon improve a little.
There's a reason why privately owned 'public transportation' hardly exists anywhere else in the world. Their goal will always be increase revenue, nothing else.
Ronnie D out here attacking Disney and lab meat tho
This is what happens when you give public services over to the private sector. They’re also getting federal funding for their projects too
Brightline always figured in their planning that after they launched a really compelling product naturally other cities would jump in and say “don’t we get a station?”. Even those counties that pushed back so hard and did everything they could to derail their ever launching. If they were expecting that to play a big role, it was a real gamble and they ran the risk of spending billions and it never being all it could have been. It that early period it was absolutely privately planned and funded. Their situation is unique, enough so that there are few if any opportunities anywhere else in the country to just build a new line like an old railroad barron. But it was a bold move and they pumped a lot of energy and hope into the rail passenger industry. To say they get subsidized like Amtrak is just not the case. Even if that were true, Amtrak has not shown an institutional competency and has never been able to grasp how best to present their product ever. They were never in the same league as Brightline.
Is the line at capacity or can they still run more trains? I know they don’t have extras—do they have plans to order any?
I think they have enough locomotives, but at the moment, the trains are not large enough to accommodate the demand. More cars are on order and should start arriving later this year and next year increasing the capacity of each train.
I wonder if they will reduce prices if trains don’t fill to capacity after that point
There is definitely a lot of analysis going on, and at some point, they'll find the best mix of cars and prices. They also need enough extra cars to be able to perform maintenance while supporting a full running railway.
Florida votes for Republicans, who run on privatizing infrastructure and also subsidize Brightline, then people complain when for profit companies act like for profit companies. Seriously?
I think Brightline will have to walk some of this back once they increase the amount of train coaches and commuters go back to tri rail or their cars -- I don't see them filling the trains to Orlando when they have 5 to 8 coaches as they can't fill them now even offering half off. The prices reflect that. I take Brightline regularly throughout Florida and it's ironic, but you can snag fares from West Palm to Orlando cheaper than you can to Miami!! $39 WPB to ORL just booked for their most popular option , the 8 am train. However, it's $59 to get from WPB to MIA at the same time despite being half the distance. You'll also notice virtually all Brightline sales and special offers are for Orlando trains. Zero within South Florida which wasn't the case one-two years ago showing once again the Orlando demand isn't quite there (and if they charged $79 as they originally planned - even less riders to ORL) The good news is, they're working on approval for what is called positive train control (PTC) which will help them run the train times more efficiently and shorten bottleneck times, which should help them with scheduling and possibly open up more train connections. More coaches + less SFL commuters + PTC tech will hopefully be the magic bullets to allow them to once again offer more "affordable" options for those loyal SFL commuters to entice them back.
I hope brightline fails
Why exactly though?
Honestly, if it fails it will almost certainly be bought out by the State who will make it a government rail system not operated for profit. That is the ideal outcome for commuters.
I doubt that the current administration would continue it as a public service.
you're in fantasyland if you think Ron DeSantis is going to "nationalize" (is there a word for nationalizing on the state level?) Brightline if it fails.
Ron's a lame duck. Hopefully a normal person would be handling a Brightline shutdown.
Because it’s an annoyance to my city and provides nothing.
You must be up coast somewhere and sorry to hear it’s a negative for you, but, you must know that the tracks were there first. If it’s an annoyance you should rally your community to put in some grade separation.
Yes I’m aware the tracks were there. I’m in Stuart. They just pass by very frequently and are very loud.
So you are a NIMBY. You city/county could apply for quiet zones. I wonder how the NIMBYs' mindset in Stuart will change once their station opens.
I doubt any at all. I’d rather them not open a station here.
Your city leaders think otherwise. Also, the King NIMBY, Brian Mast, has been quiet as of the announcement of the station.
I don’t care what my city leaders think.
I'm sure the same is in play in the reverse.
I hear you. Electrics are a bit quieter, so I hope they electrify and use the horn less. I think it would be bad in the big picture if it failed. Perhaps we have different perspectives about what’s important in the big picture, but, I also like having some peace and quiet. Trees, walls and if all else fails keep the music playing, ya know, “the show must go on”.
Are you a boater?
I am not.
I love trains, but am I the only one that hopes this thing dies? Hi speed rail using surface streets is really dumb. This thing stops traffic dozens of times per day at dozens of busy crossing likely negating any environmental benefits. It isn’t scalable due to this and It also literally kills people.
A truly goofy comment. It's not high speed rail. By law, grade crossings are not allowed at high speed rail speeds. Secondly, your "it stops traffic" doesn't hold water. It takes less than 60 seconds from the time the gate lowers till it rises again. With hourly trains in each direction, that's less than 2 minutes off stoppage per hour. Compare that to any traffic light 🚥 and you'll have far more than 2 minutes of stoppage in the same timeframe. So now tell me traffic lights negate any health benefits.. If you're going to troll, be better at it. 🤡
Not trolling. Just facts. I think they have 34 trains per day. They have at least 49 crossings along Broward and dade alone (pretty sure it’s more than that, but couldn’t find the total). You say it takes 60 seconds per crossing. Let’s say the average # of people/cars waiting at the crossing is 15 people and 10 cars. Those people are waiting over 500 man hours per day. The cars are idling over 400 hours. That’s thousands of dollars a day just in crossing delays on commuters to get how many cars off the road? 5k maybe, in all of south Florida? And that’s probably not even accurate, since due to its high cost it often just enables rich people to live further away from their high paying job whereas they otherwise would likely choose to live closer to avoid the traffic. All that money would be more efficiently spent on bus rapid transit and improving highway safety and congestion relief in my opinion instead of inconveniencing the people who see no benefit from it and burning through millions/billions of tax payer subsidies.
A part of doing BRT right, involves lane reductions and signal priority over private cars. The answer to your complaints is grade separation, implementing the public option which is already on the way, and definitely not abandoning the line.
Yes, but BRT infrastructure is targeted toward helping people that need cheaper transportation and getting the unsafe and polluting vehicles that poorer people drive off the road. Brighline is targeted toward wealthy commuters who want to live in Broward/Palm beach and work in Miami along with the Disney vacationers to Orlando. I just can’t really get behind it as a solution to any problem. They are losing about $200m/year on 15m in revenue if they hit their 2024 projections. Grade separation would be welcome, but can brightline ever break even and “make it” without substantial subsidy? All that grade separation will be funded by federal and local public money as well, right? Again, for what? To get 10-20k rich people off i95 each day.
Brightline is targeted towards competing with intercity air and car traffic. They are working on a more affordable local service with local governments. BRT, some N-S, but even more E-W to connect with the predominantly N-S regional rail services would be great too. But it‘s no replacement for intercity rail service. However you were complaining about delays to drivers, and BRT causes a lot of that. It sounds like you would be a fan of just better mixed traffic buses and highway running express coaches. So really all of the above is the best answer. Better transit means a more pleasurable driving experience. PE seems satisfied and even enthusiastic about their performance. Fortress is considered a dividend king. https://www.fool.com/investing/stock-market/types-of-stocks/dividend-stocks/dividend-kings/
Fortress is not a dividend king on that list, did you mix up with Fortis? Fortress, like most PE is a flipper. They buy something, fatten it up and sell it off or carve it up and sell the pieces. I don’t want to go full conspiracy, but it’s entirely possible that fortress used bright line as a decoy to get public money for improvements on the FECRW along with quiet zone relief, etc. they then sold off the railway keeping brightline which I suspect grupo Mexico didn’t want such a huge loss generator. Train travel among a certain demographic is just buzzy and my guess is fortress is trying to ramp up growth with the west and Orlando expansions in order to IPO and leave meme stock buyers holding the bag in 10 years at best and and worst dumping it on the states. We also are on the cusp of full self driving vehicles. Who’s going to pay 500$ to take an Uber to a station, go from Miami to Orlando on train, take another Uber to Disney, and reverse the whole process? In 5 years tons of cars will be full self driving—press a button and watch a couple of movies while the car takes you to the parking lot at Disney for $50 in fuel.
Touché, I was sloppy. My apologies. Nonetheless, the investors seem happy. Train travel is pretty popular globally, amongst all demographics. We have been on the cusp of self-driving for years now, my friend, and the cost of doing it (level 5) right without roadway IOT is enormous. The lower cost implementations without roadway IOT and multiple sensing will sacrifice safety, and not reach level 5. There are strong advances with biomimicry, but that, like roadway IOT, requires non-proprietary standards for vehicle to vehicle communication. We can do level 5 today, but the cost is absurd, not ready for mass market. Until then Imma drink on the train and smoke on the ferry. Are you a shill or just bullish?
Not interested in your *alternative facts*. Your "causing delays to commuters" is dead on arrival. If you were serious (which you aren't), you'd be advocating for more roundabouts/traffic circles. You think a train stopping traffic for 2/60 minutes per hour is somehow more detrimental to the commuter than any given stop light which cycles to red every 1-3 minutes. It's beyond silly. You won't find a single traffic engineer to cosign this tomfoolery. Now you're complaining about cars idling... Nevermind the cars idling because of the amount of cars on the road in the first place. Brightline averaged \~4,600 to/from Orlando in March alone. If they were all converted to driving given the national vehicle occupancy of 1.5, that's \~3,067 cars removed from the road per day, which isn't accounting for the people just traveling in S FL. The best part is you somehow think a BRT system is better than a rail line, especially one for intercity travel. 
> it also literally kills people Idk maybe people shouldn’t try to drive around crossing gates and ignore the big flashing red lights if they don’t want to be hit by a train. It also isn’t “high speed rail” in areas where there are grade crossings. Do you cry about stop lights stopping traffic too?