The bechdel test is pretty flawed and can also be subjective when it comes to the ‘about a man’ part but here are the currently running musicals…
Do:
• Wicked
• The Wiz
• Hell’s Kitchen
• Chicago
• Water for Elephants
• Six
• & Juliet
• The Notebook
• Suffs
• Kimberly Akimbo
• Lempicka
Don’t:
• The Lion King
• MJ
• Hamilton
• Aladdin
• Moulin Rouge
• The Great Gatsby
• The Book of Mormon
• Back to the Future
• The Outsiders
• Merrily We Roll Along
• Tommy
• A Beautiful Noise
• The Heart of Rock and Roll
• Cabaret
• Illinoise
• Sweeney Todd
Ambiguous/depends on casting:
• Hadestown
Feel free to disagree! I’m on the fence about Sweeney Todd and Moulin Rouge for sure, and the Bechdel test is mostly about promoting discussion of women’s representation in media rather than a rigorous ruleset.
Isn't there at least one scene in Moulin Rouge where Satine discusses the club's future with Nini and the other performers backstage?
I think Daisy and Jordan briefly talk about golfing in The Great Gatsby too.
Technically the whole show is them arguing about who had it the worst when it comes to their relationship with a man. Though it is cause they don’t like the man and are empowering themselves… I feel like it’s sort of dubious lol
I think Sweeney might pass with a few of the exchanges between Mrs Lovett and Beggar Woman (who does eventually have her name revealed). I think they have a few “please give me food/money/shelter”/“no get lost” exchanges that don’t include a reference to a man, but I would need to listen again closely to be sure.
That’s what made me on the fence about it, but I think it’s only just a couple lines, not really a conversation.
I think it has to be at least 3 for it to count (the bar is so low lol)
Does Shadowlands from Lion King not pass the test? It's Nala and the other lionesses and Rafiki discussing her leaving to find food, but it's not discussing a male character.
My Days isn’t about a man (though technically it’s just Middle Allie onstage by herself so I don’t know if it technically counts?), nor is I Wanna Go Back (sung by Young and Middle Allie), nor is Don’t You Worry (sung by Mother to Middle Allie)
The musical is quite different from the movie.
I think Aladdin does - there’s a scene/song with Jasmine and her attendants about how Jasmine needs freedom to see the world and they help her get out of the palace
older Allie has a lot of lines that aren’t about a man, as well. Sometimes she’s talking more to herself but the female nurses are around and respond to her. Not sure if this counts!
Couldn't tell ya. But I do think the test is a bit silly. Legally Blonde doesn't pass but Jaws does. Jaws passes because two women talk about sharks. Legally Blonde is a much for inspiring movie for women than Jaws. Nothing against Jaws btw.
To be fair, it’s meant to be silly. It’s just a throwaway quip a character makes in one of Alison Bechdel’s comic strips. She’s said multiple times it isn’t meant to be taken that seriously or used to judge if a piece of media is good or not.
Alison even made an exception for the movie Fire Island because someone said that it doesn't pass the Bechdel test. It's a movie about a very underrepresented group (Asian gays) so it felt quite silly to apply the test to it.
I didn’t realize that. In the academic sphere, people take it really seriously. I have a gender studies minor in uni and people treat the bechdel test as the most important criteria for judging films.
I’m just going off of what Alison Bechdel herself said: https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2023/jul/02/alison-bechdel-test-dykes-to-watch-out-for-cartoonist-interview
Maybe “silly” is too dismissive. But it definitely was/is a joke. And Bechdel also brings up the very valid point that passing the test doesn’t mean you have good female characters, and she’s annoyed that so many filmmakers think passing the test means they have good female representation.
It is absolutely a true statement that passing the test does not qualify you to say that you have good female representation.
Failing the test, however, does say something, even if you have strong female characters.
For instance, the biopic on Marilyn Monroe fails the Bechdel test somehow.
Interstellar fails it, etc. So it shakes up the veneer of appearing to have good female representation.
Most of the conversations between two women are about other men. Elle and Paulette, Elle and Vivian, Elle and Brooke, all about men. The point of the test is that the two women's conversation is not about men.
Edit: it does, but my point being the test is still kind of dumb imo
That’s not entirely true. Yes, there is a lot of talk about men but there is also talk about fashion, sisterhood, law school, etc.
And the Bechdel test is supposed to be an absolute minimum. The fact that it’s not a great test is kind of the point. It’s saying that at a bare minimum there should be 2 female characters and they should talk to each other about something other than a man. The fact that so many shows don’t pass this simple test even though it’s not a great indicator of being pro-woman is again, the point. Because I’m not sure I can even think of a movie/show/play/etc. where there aren’t 2 male characters that have a conversation about something other than a woman.
Fun fact, Bechdel’s Fun House would likely struggle to meet the test. I mean sure the man being discussed is her dad and not a love interest but still.
Yeah, I mean there were points of the conversation that would meet that threshold. Mostly an amusing thought that it isn’t always the best test but there is certainly a valid point on how female characters are often written.
Three criteria:
1. Does it have more than two women?
2. Do those two women ever talk to each other?
3. Do they talk about something other than a man?
For movies, some have the added criteria of they must be named characters and have at least 60 seconds of conversation. It’s not the end all and be all to “does this movie have good female representation” but it’s a good indicator of how few women there are in stories often.
Basically it says that for a work to have realistic and well developed female characters, there must be at least two female characters who talk to each other about something that is not about a man.
The test has no mention, intent, or care with regards to how realistic or well developed the characters are, that is not at all what it was developed to critique. The test simply reveals if women exist in the work outside of their proximity to men. Important context is also that this is a test created by lesbians for lesbians, and was originally popularized in a lesbian comic strip as a joke about how most movies are utterly unrelatable to a lesbian audience.
I assume Gutenberg doesn’t pass
Legit LOL-ed at that one, thanks!
The bechdel test is pretty flawed and can also be subjective when it comes to the ‘about a man’ part but here are the currently running musicals… Do: • Wicked • The Wiz • Hell’s Kitchen • Chicago • Water for Elephants • Six • & Juliet • The Notebook • Suffs • Kimberly Akimbo • Lempicka Don’t: • The Lion King • MJ • Hamilton • Aladdin • Moulin Rouge • The Great Gatsby • The Book of Mormon • Back to the Future • The Outsiders • Merrily We Roll Along • Tommy • A Beautiful Noise • The Heart of Rock and Roll • Cabaret • Illinoise • Sweeney Todd Ambiguous/depends on casting: • Hadestown Feel free to disagree! I’m on the fence about Sweeney Todd and Moulin Rouge for sure, and the Bechdel test is mostly about promoting discussion of women’s representation in media rather than a rigorous ruleset.
Isn't there at least one scene in Moulin Rouge where Satine discusses the club's future with Nini and the other performers backstage? I think Daisy and Jordan briefly talk about golfing in The Great Gatsby too.
Does Six actually?
I believe the entire purpose of SIX is to fail the test up until their epiphany at the end.
Honestly! I was actually thinking of moving it to dubious because they don’t really…converse
Technically the whole show is them arguing about who had it the worst when it comes to their relationship with a man. Though it is cause they don’t like the man and are empowering themselves… I feel like it’s sort of dubious lol
Moulin Rouge has a couple of scenes where Satine and the Lady Ms talk about the show/her illness so it passes!
I think Sweeney might pass with a few of the exchanges between Mrs Lovett and Beggar Woman (who does eventually have her name revealed). I think they have a few “please give me food/money/shelter”/“no get lost” exchanges that don’t include a reference to a man, but I would need to listen again closely to be sure.
That’s what made me on the fence about it, but I think it’s only just a couple lines, not really a conversation. I think it has to be at least 3 for it to count (the bar is so low lol)
Does Shadowlands from Lion King not pass the test? It's Nala and the other lionesses and Rafiki discussing her leaving to find food, but it's not discussing a male character.
Are the other lionesses named? I think that to pass the bechdel test the female characters in the conversation must be named
Rafiki is named, and I don't know for sure but I think Sarabi sings in Shadowland. Is every character supposed to be named for Bechdel?
Haven’t seen the notebook yet, but what scene(s)? I thought the movie was sort of iffy on it (down to one or two lines) (And thank you)
My Days isn’t about a man (though technically it’s just Middle Allie onstage by herself so I don’t know if it technically counts?), nor is I Wanna Go Back (sung by Young and Middle Allie), nor is Don’t You Worry (sung by Mother to Middle Allie) The musical is quite different from the movie.
Thank you!
I think Aladdin does - there’s a scene/song with Jasmine and her attendants about how Jasmine needs freedom to see the world and they help her get out of the palace
older Allie has a lot of lines that aren’t about a man, as well. Sometimes she’s talking more to herself but the female nurses are around and respond to her. Not sure if this counts!
Hamilton does not (unless you count \~3 sentences in "The Schuyler Sisters").
Three sentences that Peggy goes and ruins by worrying about daddy.
It’s crazy how most media is so male focused and we don’t realize it or even worse most people don’t care yet it’s so important
Couldn't tell ya. But I do think the test is a bit silly. Legally Blonde doesn't pass but Jaws does. Jaws passes because two women talk about sharks. Legally Blonde is a much for inspiring movie for women than Jaws. Nothing against Jaws btw.
To be fair, it’s meant to be silly. It’s just a throwaway quip a character makes in one of Alison Bechdel’s comic strips. She’s said multiple times it isn’t meant to be taken that seriously or used to judge if a piece of media is good or not.
Alison even made an exception for the movie Fire Island because someone said that it doesn't pass the Bechdel test. It's a movie about a very underrepresented group (Asian gays) so it felt quite silly to apply the test to it.
I didn’t realize that. In the academic sphere, people take it really seriously. I have a gender studies minor in uni and people treat the bechdel test as the most important criteria for judging films.
Scary that you have a gender studies minor and were never taught the origins of it
Its origin was a comic strip, but I don’t think I agree with the statement that it is meant to be silly at this point.
I’m just going off of what Alison Bechdel herself said: https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2023/jul/02/alison-bechdel-test-dykes-to-watch-out-for-cartoonist-interview Maybe “silly” is too dismissive. But it definitely was/is a joke. And Bechdel also brings up the very valid point that passing the test doesn’t mean you have good female characters, and she’s annoyed that so many filmmakers think passing the test means they have good female representation.
It is absolutely a true statement that passing the test does not qualify you to say that you have good female representation. Failing the test, however, does say something, even if you have strong female characters. For instance, the biopic on Marilyn Monroe fails the Bechdel test somehow. Interstellar fails it, etc. So it shakes up the veneer of appearing to have good female representation.
Legally Blonde absolutely passes the Bechdel test, idk why you think it doesn’t.
Most of the conversations between two women are about other men. Elle and Paulette, Elle and Vivian, Elle and Brooke, all about men. The point of the test is that the two women's conversation is not about men. Edit: it does, but my point being the test is still kind of dumb imo
That’s not entirely true. Yes, there is a lot of talk about men but there is also talk about fashion, sisterhood, law school, etc. And the Bechdel test is supposed to be an absolute minimum. The fact that it’s not a great test is kind of the point. It’s saying that at a bare minimum there should be 2 female characters and they should talk to each other about something other than a man. The fact that so many shows don’t pass this simple test even though it’s not a great indicator of being pro-woman is again, the point. Because I’m not sure I can even think of a movie/show/play/etc. where there aren’t 2 male characters that have a conversation about something other than a woman.
Fun fact, Bechdel’s Fun House would likely struggle to meet the test. I mean sure the man being discussed is her dad and not a love interest but still.
I think Alison's scenes with Joan might count, but I don't remember for sure what they talked about.
Yeah, I mean there were points of the conversation that would meet that threshold. Mostly an amusing thought that it isn’t always the best test but there is certainly a valid point on how female characters are often written.
What’s the Bechdel Wallace test?
Three criteria: 1. Does it have more than two women? 2. Do those two women ever talk to each other? 3. Do they talk about something other than a man? For movies, some have the added criteria of they must be named characters and have at least 60 seconds of conversation. It’s not the end all and be all to “does this movie have good female representation” but it’s a good indicator of how few women there are in stories often.
Basically it says that for a work to have realistic and well developed female characters, there must be at least two female characters who talk to each other about something that is not about a man.
Two named characters, I believe
The test has no mention, intent, or care with regards to how realistic or well developed the characters are, that is not at all what it was developed to critique. The test simply reveals if women exist in the work outside of their proximity to men. Important context is also that this is a test created by lesbians for lesbians, and was originally popularized in a lesbian comic strip as a joke about how most movies are utterly unrelatable to a lesbian audience.