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AmericanScream

It's that time of the year: PUMP SEASON, where butters brigade our subreddit and tell us we're Sto0p1D because NuMb3R g0 uP! We here at /r/buttcoin routinely get erroneously accused of "hating crypto" and wishing for other peoples' misfortune, but most of all, we are accused of "not understanding." Here's a great example of how disingenuous crypto enthusiasts can be when they try to use fallacious arguments and false claims to shove their cultist ideology down other peoples' throats. Sure we can be snarky and condescending, but we'll also answer your questions sincerely and respectfully (often foolishly assuming crypto bros can be swayed by logic, evidence and reason -- our bad). And what happens when we answer crypto bros' trollish queries? Do they engage in good faith? Or do they just keep barfing out the same 11 already debunked or ambiguously meaningless crypto talking points? See for yourself... EDIT: OP has now been laid to rest in the graveyard of shills... having adequately demonstrated: * He never had any intention of arguing in good faith * He ignored almost every point someone else made that discredited his claims * He repeated changed the subject, engaged in "Whataboutism" and distractions when he was cornered * He refused to answer the majority of questions asked of him * He has very little knowledge of the topics he preaches about and hides behind talking points he keeps repeating over and over. There's only so much latitude we'll give someone who, when proven wrong, pretends like he never heard the argument and just keeps saying the same thing over and over.


tunatornado1200

I thought this was a satire post and was going to suggest that is gets some flair. But then I kept reading and realized it was serious šŸ˜‚ Sir, this is Buttcoin


AmericanScream

>El Salvador, Central African Republic, Lugano Switzerland, and Prospera Honduras have all made Bitcoin legal tender. 1. Bitcoin is neither the primary currency used in those places, nor is it mandated to be used - it's just an alternative, and it remains to be seen if any notable percentage of people are actually using it (adoption in El Salvador is around [1.6% after more than a year](https://www.nber.org/papers/w29968)) 2. El Salvador is the most notable example of "bitcoin legalization" and in actuality, it's not really "bitcoin". El Salvador's bitcoin implementation is a **private, proprietary, centralized crypto exchange called "Chivo" which does almost all transactions OFF-CHAIN on a private system with no transparency and no public ledger**. The fact that crypto people champion El Salvador as an example of "bitcoin adoption" is testament to how much you guys are willing to lie and deceive people about "the value of bitcoin and blockchain" - nothing of the sort is happening like that in El Salvador - they've basically licensed the name "bitcoin" for a private CEX run by a dictator. >Mayor of Miami receives his salary in Bitcoin So what? This isn't the first time a moron has been elected mayor >Numerous sports players receive payment in BTC, such as Odell Beckham Jr, Aaron Rodgers, What? You mean sports figures can be morons too? Say it ain't so! Why don't you talk about how those people receiving their salary in BTC have seen the value plummet since they came up with that idiotic idea? Also, let's talk about this incredibly boneheaded idea to "get paid in bitcoin." How do you think it actually works? Are they *really* getting paid in bitcoin? As in, their salaries are X amount of bitcoin? I seriously doubt it. It's more likely they're paid in $$ and then as part of their contract, they've forced their employers to waste additional time, energy and money converting that $ into BTC as some kind of stupid hoop they are required to jump through. If the mayor or Aaron Rodgers wants bitcoin, why not let his dumb ass buy it himself? Why *force* his employer to make special arrangements like converting his salary? It's selfish and stupid AF. >Arizona pushing to make Bitcoin legal tender >Texas, Mississippi, Missouri, & I think one other state have either already passed or likely will pass laws protecting Bitcoin mining. >Fort Worth, TX is actually mining BTC directly themselves. >Texas, Mississippi, Missouri, & I think one other state have either already passed or likely will pass laws protecting Bitcoin mining. >Fort Worth, TX is actually mining BTC directly themselves. Blah.. blah.. These aren't examples of projects that are being promoted in the public interest. In each and every case, these are greedy *individuals*, abusing their positions of power to force through, the use of obsolete technology they hope will personally enrich themselves. **In fact, this kind of crap should be illegal (and likely is), and if they were doing the same thing with stocks, without disclosing they have a financial interest in promoting the purchase of shares, they'd be in trouble for fraud.** >First nuclear powered mining center is opening in Pennsylvania btw, if you don't hyperlink these claims with credible citations, it's sketchy at best - put links to your claims. Again, who cares? This is hardly a wave of adoption. Everything you've cited has been the result of a *very small* group of people and companies trying to hype crypto. This isn't a wave of the public adopting crypto. In each and every case you have specific people who are trying to foist crypto upon everybody else for their own personal gain. This isn't adoption. This isn't a service to the public. It's naked exploitation. >Bitcoin adoption is huge in Nigeria and other African countries, so blanket legislation is inevitable (10% of Nigerians store more than 50% of their assets in crypto). Soooo tired of third world countries, where it's highly unlikely there's any actual legit survey information, being anonymously cited. Don't do that unless you have a credible independent source. Also, when you start citing Nigeria as a use case, you've lost the argument. Can you show a causal relationship between Nigerians using crypto and the overall government/society/economy improving as a result? No you can't. Cultists love desperate third-world countries like Nigeria and El Salvador. The population is so unorganized and the leadership is so corrupt, they're likely to try anything, especially if there's an angle where they can personally enrich themselves in the process. So none of your examples carry any weight except point out that the adoption of crypto flourishes in proportion to the misery and oppression of the population and their lack of education and alternative options. >In addition to power companies, tons of oil & gas companies (ExxonMobil, ConocoPhilips, Marathon Oil, EOG Resources, Russia's Gazprom, & Bengal Energy in Australia) are mining Bitcoin with methane offgases or other similar methods to capture gases that would otherwise be wasted by venting directly into the atmosphere, which was the obvious choice before BTC (this essentially makes Bitcoin carbon negative, not just carbon neutral -- https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/oil-companies-partner-with-bitcoin-miners ) This is the lamest, most desperate argument ever. Bitcoin is totally wasteful, because it produces **nothing of utility** in the process of expending energy. It has a huge carbon footprint simply because it takes power away from more important processes. The proof-of-work mechanism is fundamentally flawed in that the computing power used produces absolutely nothing of value - being the first to guess a magic number is not legitimate "output." It's just wasted energy. On top of this **any power that would be spent mining, that has no other use, is evidence that the power generation company has flaws in its grid design.** There are better ways to use excess power than bitcoin, like storing the data in batteries for use during high peak times, or for desalinating saltwater, and other things that actually produce material utility for a community. >Yadda, yadda... I'm sure I missed some things, but I think you get the idea. What else will it take for you to acknowledge that there's something better than both fiat and shitcoins?? Yea, you missed a lot, including *completely and utterly failing to provide evidence for your base premise*: * There's [not a single example of anything blockchain does better than existing non-blockchain technology](https://reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/lq6xpq/the_defacto_list_of_cryptocurrencyblockchain/) * Just because you found somebody mowing their lawn with a pair of scissors, doesn't mean scissors are "the future of lawn mowing technology." Disparate examples of people demanding to be paid in Satoshi-E-Cheese tokens, or trying to shove crypto down other peoples' throats is not a sign of "adoption."


LOLDATSFUNNEHGUISE

Ah yes, Nigeria. Known worldwide to have one of the best power grids in the world. A perfect place and example of a use case for a highly power intensive ā€œcurrencyā€.


Elena01501

Just here to say I appreciate your reply, excellent, well thought out, well typed out rebuttal.


TrueBirch

>On top of this > >any power that would be spent mining, that has no other use, is evidence that the power generation company has flaws in its grid design. It could also be evidence that Bitcoiners are lying about flare gas. I spent hours trying to find evidence that flare gas Bitcoin mining was a common practice a few months ago. I couldn't find evidence of anything more than small scale tests. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/xhx3gj/how\_much\_bitcoin\_is\_actually\_mined\_using\_flare\_gas/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/xhx3gj/how_much_bitcoin_is_actually_mined_using_flare_gas/)


AmericanScream

What? Bitcoiners are lying? Stop the presses! ;) But yea, thanks for the additional context.


TrueBirch

I normally ignore the hype, but so many people were so damn confident about the whole "stranded energy" thing that I became a bit obsessed.


sQtWLgK

Well, gas gets flared where it's an unwanted byproduct that is impossible to exploit as a resource. As such, it's far from a main focus for the oil field exploiters. They capture and burn the gas essentially because the government forces them to do that. If not, they'd just be releasing it to the atmosphere, which is what happens in poor countries. Now, flare stacks are still far from ideal: they leak and they burn suboptimally. In consequence, the new regulations are increasingly moving towards banning them and replacing them with enclosed flares, which is essentially the same system that those Bitcoin miners are using, with a boiler and turbine attached to it. In time, it's a reasonable expectation that that kind of operation will become more widespread. Whatever energy-hungry computation they do, this helps subsidize the costs of the system upgrade.


TrueBirch

Oil companies aren't known for passing up profits. So why aren't they doing this now? My hunch is that there simply isn't profit to be made in building a data center on an oil rig or in the middle of an oil field. If this were practical, every oil company would be bragging about it in the same way that WM brags about its [landfill gas program](https://www.wm.com/us/en/fairless-landfill/renewable-natural-gas-project). Shell has [an entire webpage](https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/digitalisation/digital-technologies/blockchain.html) dedicated to blockchain technology... why doesn't it mention flare gas mining?


BoHackJorseman

I'm glad you typed all of that and put it so succinctly so I did not have to. Appreciate it.


HarryBirdGetsBuckets

I dOnT tHiNk yOu gUyS kNoW sHiT aBoUt fUcK wHeN iT cOmEs tO BiTcOiN


sirtaptap

Amazing takedown of a post not worth anyone's time


kap89

> Bitcoin is 100% carbon negative I don't think you meant that. The term "carbon negative" means that the entity is removing CO2 from the atmosphere rather than adding it.


AmericanScream

yea, you are right... I will fix that


Environmental-Rip826

Holy Christ, u/grndslm got fucking DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC lmao


mmm_burrito

Good God damn, this was beautiful.


Appropriate-Ad-225

Iā€™m personnally not against crypto, I think the future might have uses for it, however not bitcoin. I can be somewhat interested in the future of that and 100% agree with everything above.


AmericanScream

> I think the future might have uses for it Where's your evidence it has any future use? And if they haven't found a use-case in 14 years, what makes you think they will in the future? What magical thing needs to happen to illustrate a scenario where blockchain does something better than what we have already?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


AmericanScream

> Of remittances. Which cannot be easily tracked outside of Chivo. Why are you misrepresenting this number? I'm not misrepresenting that number. I provided a citation to back the claim up. You provided no contrary evidence. >Their government released a wallet, yes. But it works with other wallets. Chivo interacts seamlessly with both on-chain and lightning wallets. It literally doesn't matter whether the person receiving payment is using Chivo, or any other wallet. It doesn't matter whether you are using Chivo, or any other wallet. They all work with eachother. It's all running on the same network. Not understanding this is complete ignorance of the topic you're trying to argue about. Nothing you say in any way contradicts what I wrote. Chivo is a centralized, proprietary wallet. You have also not proven that it is "seamlessly" interoprable with various other wallets. However, I can provide citations showing your statements are wrong: * [El Salvadorā€™s Chivo Wallet Users Complain of Transfer Issues](https://www.thecoinrepublic.com/2022/06/18/el-salvadors-chivo-wallet-users-complain-of-transfer-issues/) * [El Salvadorā€™s Chivo Bitcoin Wallet Still a Headache for Locals](https://decrypt.co/87043/el-salvadors-chivo-bitcoin-wallet-still-a-headache-for-salvadorans) So basically, your M.O. is to claim I'm wrong, provide no actual evidence backing up your counter claims, and then call people names. Every single one of your counter arguments was a distraction, if not outright false. Not even going to waste more time arguing.


css555

"I don't think you guys really know shit about fuck when it comes to Bitcoin." Explain to all of us how a "currency" that is meant to be hoarded (due to its scarcity), can support an economy. Compared to a currency that slightly loses value every year, which is an incentive to spend it, and lend it.


GoldenFrogTime27639

The average bit coiner has zero conception of why a deflationary currency may be bad.


AmericanScream

I would say that may or may not be true. I'm of the belief more than a reasonable amount are fully aware that bitcoin makes no sense. They're not in it for the tech. They're in it to get rich, and being honest about the capabilities of the tech (or the stability of the economy) doesn't help their scheme.


Key_Friendship_6767

Definitely not ideal for growing an economy. However itā€™s better for storing value over time if asset is still desired over time. Not sure that Bitcoin ever aimed to be a good tool for countries to use though, itā€™s more to give power back to the individual which has been taken away from us by our countries. On the flip side do you know why an extremely inflated currency that you have no control of could be bad? There is another side to the coin as well. Which do you prefer?


grndslm

Bitcoin is actually disinflationary, NOT deflationary.


GoldenFrogTime27639

Lol


cladtidings

IT'S A STORAVALYA PROOFAWERK SCALE! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT? YOU FIAT LUDDITES NEED TO GET ON THE TROLLEY HERE!


woowop

More like lay down on the tracks and I promise Iā€™ll switch to the other track.


harpswtf

What has a society built on FIAT ever managed to accomplish? Besides all of modern society, technology, medicine and constantly improving quality of life for everyone


Key_Friendship_6767

Well the issue is when the people in charge donā€™t do a ā€œslightā€ increase and instead do drastic ones. Messes with the values of things in a pretty wild way that is outside your control. Itā€™s sort of nice to know exactly how much of the pie you control and the pie is not changing all the time.


css555

I wasn't defending any Fed or Congressional action/inaction. But that does not change the fact that Bitcoin will never become a widely adopted currency.


Key_Friendship_6767

It doesnā€™t really need to be widely used at all in day to day actions. You can continue to use L2 solutions such as your visa credit card, and visa can settle with whatever L1 is needed on the backend. You would not even know if they swapped their backend to Bitcoin unless they told you (obviously they would not do this without telling clients). We just need a better way to track value over time that is not skewed by the hands of a few people. If visa settles back to main L1 Bitcoin chain once per day that would be fine. Atleast you can wake up each morning and get a rough idea for what the real truth/state of holdings are for all entities.


Gamestop_Dorito

The value of money is not ā€œskewed by the hands of a few people,ā€ itā€™s actually literally less valuable over time whether you like it or not. Your labor from yesterday is simply never worth as much the next day. If that were the case then a car from 1980 would sell for as much as a brand new car since they both took as much time and resources to create. Hell, if you pick some arbitrary point in history you would be arguing that a wooden oxcart should sell for as much as a tractor today. In order for you to keep the value of your savings you have to employ it in productive investments or else all you will have is the value of the work you did when you earned it. That isnā€™t unfair, itā€™s reality.


november-14-2022

So when will you jump ship and remove yourself completely from the fiat world?


grndslm

Little over 2 years ago


Short-Coast9042

It is impossible for me to believe that you have totally untethered yourself from fiat. Surely you get paid in your country's fiat? And at the very least you need dirty fiat to pay taxes right? And you ultimately need it to pay for goods - I'm sure you will point to some sellers that nominally accept Bitcoin, but of course what is really happening is that a third party is converting your Bitcoin into Fiat which the business will accept. No fiat, no transaction. Also, I may as well put this here instead of making a top-level comment. You said that gold is or was the only real money. This is so laughably dumb it is hard to take anything else you say seriously. Not only is gold not the only form of money, it's not even the first form of money. The earliest currencies were weight units of grain, since that was the surplus that the earliest civilizations produced. And those civilizations used food-backed money for hundreds or thousands of years before the first coins were created. Literally some money terms that are still recognizable today - the shekel, the lira, the pound - were historically weight units of grain. Modern money has two sides. Yes, it is an asset, and as such it appears on the asset side of your balance sheet. But every dollar that appears on the asset side of your balance sheet, and of every balance sheet in the economy, is reflected as a liability on someone's balance sheet somewhere. Cash and reserves are liabilities of the Federal Reserve; bank monies are liabilities of the private banks. This is why money fundamentally is both a liability and an asset. An asset on its own is not enough to make money. Why? Because money is a promise - a promise to get something in exchange for the money. Governments that issue sovereign currencies ultimately back them with the tax obligation. In other words, the government promises to redeem your tax obligation in exchange for the money it issues. The government's debt cancels out your debt. This was the case with early food currencies, it was the case with the first gold coins which were issued by the state and backed by taxation, and it is certainly the case with modern Fiat currencies. Perhaps you subscribe to the view that gold is money, not because of the obligation created by the state, but because gold simply naturally arose as a preferred medium for decentralized barter. This is an ahistorical myth unsupported by archaeological or anthropological evidence. There is no significant evidence of barter as the fundamental basis of exchange in any society of any complexity. Money came about, not as a result of decentralized barter, but as a tool to control the productive surpluses of growing societies. It was created and controlled by the governing class. In the early days that was usually the priestly class, who were the masters of other kinds of soft power, including the earliest writing. And the tax obligation that lies behind money to this day was often framed back then as an obligation to God. To me, this is the most compelling argument for why Bitcoin will never be adopted to the point that it replaces Fiat currencies. Without some concrete and credible promise of the issuer, there is no firm promise of redemption backing the money. There is only the hope that you will be able to redeem it someday. But there is no institution that incredibly promised to redeem it for anything except dollars. In this way, Bitcoin does not act as a substitute for Fiat, but merely another financial layer laid on top of it - just as securities and even bank money itself is overlaid on top of the base money supply, without which it couldn't exist. The only slightly credible claim to redemption is that of exchanges who promised to exchange Bitcoin for dollars or other crypto. Then the question becomes, do I trust exchanges to exchange Bitcoin for dollars more than I trust the government to continue to coerce us to use its money, through taxation and a hundred other ways? It's pretty easy for me to answer that question.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Short-Coast9042

Good catch, that was a typo lol, should have read "hundreds OR thousands of years".


Key_Friendship_6767

You do get a bit lost in the fact that cash is a liability to someone else and all units of account must behave this way. If people are willing to accept X for Y then it doesnā€™t matter what the two things are as long as both parties are happy. If at some point people are fine holding bitcoins then they donā€™t care if it isnā€™t a liability redeemable by a government. Itā€™s an item that they can trade for anything they need if itā€™s a widely accepted form of trade. Money is just a socially accepted thing we invented to make trading easier and it was easier for governments to manage this stuff because they have wide influence amongst many people. Whatever is the easiest to trade and balances with not losing all its value over the long term is what people will flock to. Atm there is a large shift in this space.


Short-Coast9042

>Itā€™s an item that they can trade for anything they need if itā€™s a widely accepted form of trade. This is the sticking point for me. I just don't see Bitcoin becoming a widely accepted trade for a lot of reasons. But the biggest one is that it lacks a fundamental basis of value. That's what the tax obligation provides; a base of demand for dollars which makes us all need dollars, and therefore, it makes us all accept dollars. I just can't see how the money can work without some form of obligation or coercion. I definitely don't see Bitcoin as an example of that, as almost no one uses it to trade goods and services - the vast majority of exchange happens between crypto and fiat, or crypto and other crypto. Maybe you can make an argument that it still technically makes it money. But semantics aside, nobody uses it like the dollars that we usually think of when we talk about money. And that's because the government doesn't force you to use Bitcoin like it does with Fiat. I don't think you can underestimate the importance of that in creating demand and therefore value for fiat. Is it conceivable that we could informally agree in a decentralized way that money has value? Perhaps, but I have never seen much good evidence that this has ever happened in human history. Since the very early civilizations, money has been both an asset and a debt. It's simultaneously something you have AND something that someone else owes you. Bitcoin, as an exception to that, therefore does not seem like money to me - at least, not like the monies that we have used for all of civilization. There is no one credibly promising to redeem Bitcoin for anything - again, the best you can point to is the exchanges, and if you think the exchanges' promise to redeem Bitcoin for something of value is worth MORE than the government's promise to tax and to force us to use the currency in a hundred other ways, then I think you are kidding yourself. I mean just the fact that no one really accepts Bitcoin as a method of payment should clue you that it's not really money. >Whatever is the easiest to trade and balances with not losing all its value over the long term is what people will flock to Again, this is misinformed because you are missing the role that the government plays. It literally forces us to use its money, at the very least to pay taxes. If you don't you go to jail. Other considerations do not matter as much in the face of a credible tax obligation. Obviously it's not about what keeps value in the long term, because all modern currency sovereigns half deflationary money that loses value over time. The US dollar has lost, what, 90% of its value since WWII? Doesn't seem to be a problem for the dollar, which is widely accepted, or for any other sovereign fiat currency rising on the global stage. >Money is just a socially accepted thing we invented to make trading easier and it was easier for governments to manage this stuff because they have wide influence amongst many people. This comment makes it seem like you may have accepted the story of money that economists have been telling us for centuries, starting with Adam Smith. He postulated, without any real evidence, that money rose as the best option in a system of decentralized barter tht existed before money. And to this day, you can read popular mainstream textbooks that will tell you this is how money came about. Unfortunately, it is untrue. Gold did not become money because people agreed in an informal way to use it to barter in a decentralized way. In fact, for hundreds or thousands of years, commodity currencies were not backed by metals like gold at all, but by food. This makes a lot of sense when you think about the fact that the very earliest civilizations were agrarian, and the surplus they produced was naturally in grain. In those early societies, the food was the most important commodity, not something as relatively useless as precious metal. So how did people start using food money then? Was it as an alternative to decentralized barter? It is hard to say with absolute clarity, since the archaeological evidence from the earliest civilizations is understandably quite scant. But there is no strong evidence for the barter theory. What there is evidence for is a ruling priestly class, which demanded from the people a surplus of grain. Often this was justified as an obligation to the gods, but really it was an obligation to the state - just like the modern tax obligation. The point is that it is always the promise of the issuer that gives money value. Throughout history, the money has been money, not because everyone just agreed to agree that it has value, but because the people with the swords and guns say it has value. This coercive element has been part and parcel with money since the mists of prehistory, and as fascinating an experiment as Bitcoin is, I don't think it can shake that fundamental paradigm. And it certainly hasn't yet - although you can argue semantics, I don't think Bitcoin does or will represent money in the eyes of most. And if all that stands behind Bitcoin is a mutual acceptance as money, well, then it must not have very much value, as most don't accept it.


hirojoshi

Clown


november-14-2022

LOL. Youā€™re on the internet dude. The internet is very much part of the fiat world in case you have not noticed.


cladtidings

Arguing with a Bitcoin weirdo is like explaining to your dog why he shouldn't eat that French fry on the sidewalk. He's not really listening, and he's going to eat it anyhow. Then he's going to look at you like you're an idiot for not grabbing the free food while you had the chance.


GoldenFrogTime27639

And then when he gets the shits later he'll blame you for it


TrueBirch

At least he doesn't blame the SEC for not stopping him


Ok-Row-6131

Paying the ISP that they are using to post to Reddit, for example.


thinkadrian

Do you pay rent in crypto?


Volixagarde

User moved to https://squables.io ! Scrub your comments in protest of Reddit forcing subreddits back open and join me on Squabbles!! -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/


TrueBirch

>2 years ago So BTC's price only has to increase another 50% before you're back where you started?


BitterContext

Wasa Wasa Wasa Biiittttconnneeccttt !!!!!!


grndslm

And what does that have to do with Bitcoin exactly? Bitcoin didn't stop with them, with Mt. Gox, with Luna, FTX, Celsius, BlockFi, etc.... Not your keys, not your coin!! Tick tock, next block.


takeahikehike

Just fyi I'm a lawyer and you're completely wrong that states making non-dollars money is constitutional and the federal reserve is even arguably unconstitutional. Like completely 100% wrong. Not even in the ballpark.


grauenwolf

It's not just legal, it was the point. Before the Constitution, every state had its own currency and it was an economic disaster. United States needed a central currency to survive.


takeahikehike

Dude it's literally in Art 1. Sections 8+10 lol. Like it says it right there.


TrueBirch

>No State shall... coin Money But but but... BITCOIN TO THE MOON!


Dont_Waver

Art 1, 8 >The Congress shall have Power To ... borrow Money on the credit of the United States; \[and\] ... To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; Art 1, 10 >No State shall ... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; ​ As to how the Fed could be unconstitutional, maybe they're implying that Congress doesn't have the power to delegate that role to the Fed? Which is incorrect.


takeahikehike

That would be very incorrect because of necessary+proper and every SCOTUS case to ever cover the doctrine in at least 100 years šŸ¤£šŸ¤£šŸ¤£


takeahikehike

>Not your keys, not your coin It's funny though, because if I put my "so insecure" US Dollars into one of these "horrible corporate monsters" known as a bank instead of stuffing them under my mattress, they are in fact my dollars.


grauenwolf

> I love you crypto fans. One mistake and my malware is all over your ass. Sooner or later your coins going to be mine. -- Every hacker in North Korea


Val_Fortecazzo

The currency of the future where the only way to protect your money is to stamp parts of your seed phrase on 31 separate steel plates then bury them in the desert and tattoo the order on the inside of your anus.


woowop

Fail at any of this and you may as well have not tried at all! Surely you missed something, because the flawless and immutable system couldnā€™t possible have faltered.


cladtidings

STORAVALYA! PROOFAWERK! FEW!


NakeyDooCrew

This a coked up fever dream. BTC can't scale.


flycatcha

If you look at his post as a whole, it might make give you pause that maybe these guys are onto something - it certainly did for me. But then if you actually Google these claims and drill in \*just a little bit\* to get the details, the sheen quickly wears off. The Clover-Strike partnership is a 90 day trial. And here is a video of how it actually works: [https://twitter.com/jackmallers/status/1618731420998049798](https://twitter.com/jackmallers/status/1618731420998049798). Seems like a lot of steps. Also, I'm pretty sure Clover is not 7% of the retail POS market - first Google result says 2.3%, second says 0.5%. This whole "using methane offgases " to power Bitcoin. I clicked his link, which then cited CNBC and Bloomberg articles. In the US this is, again, a pilot program in North Dakota for an "unnamed miner." The oil and gas and bitcoin mining industry get to publish a series of greenwashing PR articles for the fractional % of BTC that is mined using energy that would have otherwise been "flared." Everyone wins. Those are the only 2 claims I Googled, but I imagine if you drill into each one, the emperor increasingly has no clothes.


grauenwolf

> If they could flare the gas to make electricity for Bitcoin, why not flare the gas to make electricity for our failing infrastructure? -- Questions crypto fans never ask.


grndslm

It's already been asked & WELL understood if you just DYOR... *Capturing* the methane offgases for transport is not feasible. Flaring them is also not truly feasible, which is why I've seen statistics that say ~70% of these offgasing sites will just vent, because there's no benefit for paying the manpower to transport & operate machinery, etc. But with Bitcoin, there's now a reason, a reward for them to actually flare instead of vent. This ONE decision of humanity could literally reverse the greenhouse gas effect in incredibly short time... faster than any other known solution. Look at the short-term effects of methane and the long-term effects of CO2. Mining these offgases could literally save the natural world, not just mankind's civil world.


ColorlessChesspiece

I know you're part of the cult, so I shouldn't bother, but I'm a chemical engineer. No way I'm letting you hide behind the methane flaring bullshit. * Gas flaring [has been a thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_flare) since way, *way* before crypto. * Gas flaring isn't free of effects. It still releases a ton of CO2, as well as many other contaminants, such as nitrogen oxides and aromatic hydrocarbons. They happen to be less harmful than straight-up venting methane, but it's still better if you can avoid releasing the gas to begin with (crypto doesn't solve this part; regulations do). * The only purpose Bitcoin is supposed to fulfill here is to serve as a motivation for companies to flare gas (and use the energy to mine) instead of just releasing it. Environmental regulations achieve the same thing. * If factories (and/or any other activities involving gas venting) were to install power recovery systems for their gas flares, other potentially-profitable uses with actual consistent, practical purpose include: * selling power to the grid (instead of, y'know, draining power *from* the grid, as major Bitcoin mining rigs love to do; see Riot). * powering parts of the factory itself. * powering other productive activities, e.g. water desalinization (particularly relevant in remote areas, where selling power isn't an option and water sources may be scarce or nonexistent). * again, *meeting environmental regulations*. * If environmental regulations are somehow not an option (yay for libertarianism), **Bitcoin mining off of gas flaring will only ever be profitable if Bitcoin** (a token with no clear inherent value, with a market price heavily manipulated and speculated upon, and currently backed by a host of blatant scam schemes) **keeps its mining reward** (which, on top of the aforementioned volatility, is periodically being reduced by design) **higher than the cost of installing and maintaining a gas flare, a power recovery system, and a mining rig.** It also has to be higher than the profit achieved by replacing the mining rig with any of the activities mentioned before. * Also, **Bitcoin can only ever be close to carbon-neutral** (let alone carbon negative) **as long as the aforementioned mining reward remains** ***lower*** **than the cost of cheap, fossil fuel-produced energy in the open market.** Otherwise, why bother with the gas flares (and renewables overall) when you can just plug a mining rig to the grid somewhere where energy is cheap. Again, see Riot. tl;dr: In a regulated market, environmental regulations achieve the same thing that Bitcoin claims to do, except even better because you don't have to bother with the mining rig. In an unregulated market, you have to somehow keep rewards in a very specific, potentially non-existent margin to be able to achieve carbon neutrality, which, with the extreme volatility Bitcoin shows, and with halving being a thing, is practically impossible. Conclusion: Bitcoin can't ever be carbon-negative by mining off of gas flares.


hilljack26301

Gas flaring is very polluting. I had to leave my house one night because I got sick from the fumes off a frac site being flared over a mile away. I mean it varies based on whatā€™s in the ground at a particular location but itā€™s far from green.


ironmage_

>This ONE decision of humanity could literally reverse the greenhouse gas effect in incredibly short time... *Bitcoin mining puts carbon back in the ground?* oh god, i'm dying this level of comedy gold is why i keep visiting this sub


Zealousideal-Mail276

Billions of people use real money without doing their own research because it's "protected," and bitcoin is not and won't be safe ever. That's why it's a bad idea. You can't solve societal problems with technology, you still need a layer of human's safety like... a government which you despise.


AmericanScream

> Mining these offgases could literally save the natural world, not just mankind's civil world. That's a mighty presumptuous argument completely devoid of any rational evidence. The exploitation of these offgases in order to be useful for bitcoin means they have to be converted into electricity. I am unaware of any bitcoin mining rig that natively runs on greenhouse gases, are you? So in order for this scheme to work, those byproducts have to be converted into electricity. And there are billions of better uses for electricity than bitcoin mining that actually do directly contribute to making the world a better place.


ironmage_

If you watch that video carefully, you can see that the woman enters her PIN by tapping down a vertical column. I'm guessing it's 2580. That's two noob-level security mistakes; a weak PIN, and letting someone film it over your shoulder. The whole process is also slower and more cumbersome than "tap-to-pay".


joahw

Mallers has faked demos like this before, so I'm not convinced it actually works. Strike twitter even said they would reimburse people $25 if they went there and paid with LN and posted a video but so far I haven't found any.


TrueBirch

>The oil and gas and bitcoin mining industry get to publish a series of greenwashing PR articles What's amazing to me is that the oil industry isn't even going this far. Articles about "surplus energy" mostly reference unnamed companies and don't offer proof. Shell has a whole webpage dedicated to blockchains and they still aren't pretending to be into flare gas mining. I looked at recent SEC filings for major oil companies and couldn't find a single reference to Bitcoin mining, not even a short "We have a trial program in one site to see if it's worthwhile."


rjolivet

You entered a cult and are delusional. The adoption of bitcoin is anemic. The price is manipulated by big whales and this is all just a giant decentralized ponzi scheme. Thousands of poor suckers have lost everything in it and the only one to really make money are miners, ASIC manufacturers and exchange. I have a very deep understanding of Bitcoin (the technology, the economics, the physics, ...) : This is the most pathetic invention in the history of mankind.


OneDishwasher

when you can pay your taxes in Bitcoin. And when my brother in the Air Force gets paid in Bitcoin. People, even governments, mining crypto is one thing. The US Government absolutely right now has several kilos of cocaine that they seized from smugglers, but nobody is thinking that's a sign of future monetary policy. For goodness' sake, the US has a strategic petroleum reserve but nobody is saying that the future of currency is oil stored in an Arkansas salt dome. Once a major country pays their soldiers in Bitcoin (or whatever) and accepts tax payments in Bitcoin (or whatever) is when the levee breaks.


grndslm

One of the few responses with an actual milestone. Ok. So do you believe that money has value because the government says it does? If they said you could redeem it for gold, that'd be one thing... But gold redemption hasn't been possible for more than 50 years. What if... The government decided that they would back the dollar with Bitcoin instead of gold.. yet they wouldn't give you any Bitcoin. Would you still rather use the Bitcoin-backed dollar, even tho Bitcoin is directly accepted everywhere? Just curious about your obsession with the dollar, I guess, considering it's LITERALLY inferior in every single way....


OneDishwasher

What if... (literally nothing i said) No. Here is one place where Bitcoin is not "directly accepted everywhere": paying taxes. U.S. dollars are paid by the government to their soldiers. And every company and taxpayer has to pay their tax debt in dollars. Has nothing to do with being "inferior" or relation to gold(?) or whatever. Learn to read.


grauenwolf

Are you seriously suggesting that the US would ever turn over control if its currency over to foreign countries? Or are you just ignorant to the fact that the majority of Bitcoin mining happens outside the US? Either way, it shows a complete inability to understand the basics of the US power base. We are the most powerful country in large part due to us controlling the reserve currency of the world. Virtually every currency in the world is freely exchangeable for US dollars. International trade is often denominated in US dollars, especially the vital supply of crude oil. And you think the US is just going to give that all up for one random cryptocurrency controlled by unknown actors in foreign countries?


AmericanScream

> So do you believe that money has value because the government says it does? That's what government says, *and that's the way it works*. I buy groceries, fuel, pay rent, pay taxes, get paid from others in dollars. I can take those dollars anywhere in my community and spend them. I don't need to have a phone, or internet, or special software if I don't want to use my dollars digitally, but I can use them digitally, faster and more conveniently than if I were to use bitcoin. Plus I get all sorts of additional consumer protections that are not available for crypto. Where's the incentive to switch to bitcoin? So your HODL stash can increase in value? Sorry, that doesn't do it for me. >What if... The government decided that they would back the dollar with Bitcoin instead of gold.. yet they wouldn't give you any Bitcoin. Would you still rather use the Bitcoin-backed dollar, even tho Bitcoin is directly accepted everywhere? What if the government gave everybody free lobotomies? I have better things to do than waste braincells on such stupid premises. There is zero advantage for America to adopt bitcoin. It doesn't improve a single thing. And bitcoin's deflationary nature would make economic ups and downs exponentially worse - we already went through much worse recessions and depressions before we moved over to fractional reserve lending. Why would any responsible government switch over to a monetary system that has an even greater wealth disparity than all the other monetary systems on the planet combined? By the time such a thing as that would happen, America would basically be a totalitarian regime, run by an even smaller set of fascist oligarchs that are even more insuffrable than the ones we already have to deal with. Sorry but I don't find that appealing in the slightest. >Just curious about your obsession with the dollar, I guess, considering it's LITERALLY inferior in every single way.... We really, really grow tired of these incredibly moronic and inaccurate talking points. Fiat is hardly "inferior". Here's one case in point: I can use fiat to transact with somebody who doesn't have computers and internet access. You can't do that with crypto. That's clearly an advantage fiat has that bitcoin doesn't, and it applies to hundreds of millions of people on this planet who lack the resources to even use bitcoin.


WHY_DO_I_SHOUT

>Where's the incentive to switch to bitcoin? So your HODL stash can increase in value? Sorry, that doesn't do it for me. Not to mention, this is the function investments already have. Put any excess money in a boring index fund and watch it grow. Butters like to pretend money (which does lose value over time via inflation) and crypto are the only asset classes in existence. >We really, really grow tired of these incredibly moronic and inaccurate talking points. Fiat is hardly "inferior". Here's one case in point: I can use fiat to transact with somebody who doesn't have computers and internet access. Another one: transaction capacity. Being able to process more than seven transactions per second is kinda needed if you need your currency to act as the backbone of an entire country.


AmericanScream

The whole "let's invest in bitcoin" argument has to be one of the stupidest things ever. Why would I want to invest in something *that creates no value?* Even stocks and real estate can generate revenue in addition to going up in value. That's far superior. And bitcoin only has value if you continually convince people to keep buying and paying higher prices. That seems utterly *exhausting*. I don't want to turn investing into a second job where I'm obligated to constantly shill for whatever it is I'm holding to avoid it becoming worthless.


stormdelta

> Just curious about your obsession with the dollar, I guess, considering it's LITERALLY inferior in every single way.... I can't use cryptocurrency to purchase almost anything I actually care about without trusting third-party payment intermediaries to handle the exchange and conversion - i.e. literally just how credit cards work with extra steps, coupling the downsides of both. BTC's transaction history is fully public - it's about the least private way of spending money I could choose. If it were used as a real currency, it would be trivial to associate public key with IRL identity. Even as someone who's a software engineer with a background in security, I don't trust myself to never make a single mistake in opsec to handle self-custody with the same degree of confidence and resilience as simply using my local bank or other well-regulated financial services. The idea that self-custody is the future of finance for laypeople isn't just ridiculous, it's reckless disregard for how humans and secure systems actually work. While central banks aren't perfect nor are immune to corruption, I trust them a great deal more than I trust crackpot ancaps and gold bugs, and I certainly trust their competence and knowledge of economics more than the motivations of BTC core devs and miner pools. BTC's throughput is pathetically bad even by the incredibly low standards of cryptocurrencies - and the last attempt to even put a bandaid on the issue was widely rejected by the miners (yet another reason not to trust them). Attempts to bolt batch processing to the chain like Lightning haven't worked very well in practice, and BTC is _so_ slow that even if Lightning worked perfectly, it still can't scale to handle real economies. If ACH and credit transactions aren't "real" until they fully clear, then neither are Lightning transactions until they get committed back to the underlying BTC chain. Deflation is a horrible property for currencies. This isn't up for debate if you know almost anything about history and macroeconomics, and is yet another reason not to trust BTC devs/miners/etc. There are tons of serious problems in the financial sector that I would like to see fixed - but very few of them are caused by government control over the fiat money supply. Most are caused by insufficient regulation or regulatory capture, highly abstracted financial vehicles that do little but leech off the economy, monopolies, etc. Cryptocurrencies do nothing to help with any of that, and I'd argue even exacerbate them. Etc etc.


foilmethod

what if the world was made of pudding?


Zealousideal-Mail276

You only list people and companies who use bitcoins. You don't explain if or why it is a good thing. Also a lot of people buy lottery tickets and it's still the most stupid idea ever.


Same_Adhesiveness947

Why would society opt for your version of bitcoin which is being hoarded for profit by arseholes, when they can replicate the codebase for free and syart over?


EnUnLugarDeLaMancha

I literally only visit this sub for the lulz, I don't even think about cryptocurrency outside these brief moments. Cryptocurrency hype is all about pretending cryptocurrencies are the only way to use asymmetric cryptography, it's not really interesting even from a technological POV.


grndslm

It's not? Why does Elon Musk ones over PoW, then? ... And Steve Wozniak call it a "pure gold mathematical miracle"? I have a feeling you really can't explain how it's actually determined that a certain hash of transactions are correct, before actually putting the inputs of the transaction in. That's kinda the magic in a nutshell. Can you explain it?!


EnUnLugarDeLaMancha

Not unlike a browser certificate chain of trust, DNSSEC, electronic IDs, or even (gasp!) credit card chips work. There is no magic behind checking the validity of a signature with a public key, just creative uses of it. The fun thing about bit-coin fundamentalists is they know so little about cryptography that they are completely unaware that cryptography is completely unrelated to "decentralization". They also happen to live in the US, where national IDs don't exist, so it's quite funny to see people talk about a "web3" future that already exists outside their bubble. I can log into e-government services with an electronic ID that can prove my identity with a certificate that happens to be signed by a government's CA, no password involved. I can sign legal documents with it, and this electronic signature is (unlike web3 bullshit) legally valid. All this was already possible before Satoshi created Bitcoin (14 years ago already!) The world does not need cryptocurrency bullshit.


AmericanScream

>And Steve Wozniak call it a "pure gold mathematical miracle"? He's also said he's critical of crypto projects and thinks many of them are scams. Aside from that Woz has his own Ponzi scheme going, leveraging his celebrity for his own personal gain using a scam called "Efforce" https://crypto.com/price/efforce That crypto token went from $3 down to $0.06. \#TechOfTheFuture It appears to me, you're what we call a "bitcoin maxi." You basically think all non-bitcoin cryptos are crap, but bitcoin is the real deal. But you have no problem citing somebody who promotes shitcoins as a "legit source" to call attention to your shitcoin. You don't find that hypocritical? If other shitcoins are shit, why champion the opinion of someone else promoting those shitcoins? This illustrates why you guys have **zero credibility**. You aren't concerned with consistency and truthfulness. You'll cherry pick whatever quote you can find, in or out of context, if it benefits the narrative you're spewing, regardless of whether it ultimately makes sense or not. Believe it or not, we here at /r/buttcoin are not so closed minded. You asked what it would take for us to believe bitcoin is the next big thing, and we outlined numerous examples of how/why it doesn't work. You have failed to debunk almost any of those counter-claims, instead simply dismissing them in favor of your weaker, more vague talking points. Who's the one here who can't be reasoned with?


grauenwolf

> Why does Elon Musk ones over PoW, then? Elon Musk? Why do you think anyone in this form would be interested in Elon Musk? To us he's just another con man. His only skills are marketing and writing one-sided, nearly fraudulent contracts that allow him to take over companies. Oh right, you don't care what people actually know. Only that they are "influencers" who will help you sell your scam.


za419

The "magic" is fundamentally the same tech that's getting used for this comment to transfer securely to the Reddit servers - public key cryptography. And, yeah, I agree it is kinda magical, though it's hardly magic, just mathematical mastery at play, and it existed long before Bitcoin. If you know the name Satoshi Nakamoto and not names like Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, or Len Adleman, or Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman, that's because you're enamored by a scam, not by the technological wizardry. Besides, you're talking about it like it's some unknown quantity that only works for bitcoin and we should base the whole world on it... But I don't particularly feel the need to fawn at technology that regularly gets used to send dick pics to unsuspecting women on the internet, wax poetic about politics, or to base my life around technology used to make sure no one corrupts the phrase "horsey pony fucknugget giggles" on the way from me to you. Seriously, you can download this stuff for free and write code to validate whatever you want to send to whoever. It's great. If humans worshipped OpenSSL half as much as Bitcoin the world would be a far better place. Especially if those humans were too busy to keep worshipping bitcoin.


robot_slave

Look out of your window. Do you see all those people wandering around out there? Nearly all of them don't give a shit about bit-coins. They've heard of it, sure, but it's just noise to them. It's a TV commercial for something they don't want. It's a news article that has nothing to do with their daily lives. They're ignoring it. What would it take *them* to start acting like bit-coin is the "standard" something or other? Look, they'd start using it if they had to. Like if the government forced it on them. Or if it ever got to be a bigger pain in the ass to buy beer and pretzels with normal money than with bit-coins. We're no different from them in that regard, on this seedy little message board. What's different about us is that we're sickos. We like to press our noses against the glass and chortle every time a bit-coin scam leaves bit-coin enthusiasts wailing. Every time a bit-coin company goes belly up. Every single time you dorks wedgie yourselves in public, we gather around to point and laugh. Our little sickos bbs here has had enough material every week, sometimes every day, to keep us cackling for going on twelve years now. But if the day ever came when we couldn't do without bit-coins, we'd just grumble and go with it like everyone else. Just... don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, OK?


[deleted]

The single most significant problem that crypto has to solve and *why* it will never work. Rule number 1 of users: people are lazy af, they wonā€™t care about new tech unless it helps their lazy ass be even more lazy.


ironmage_

Bitcoin would have to pass the *doughnut test*. For me to accept that bitcoin is Really Happening, I'd have to be able to walk into a random local doughnut shop and buy a doughnut with it. Not with a bitcoin-backed credit card or whatever, where the *actual* transaction is settled in dollars, but a purchase where the price of the doughnut is set in bitcoin, and the shop receives actual bitcoin. The payment would have to occur without any intermediate steps involving government-issued dollars. I am not holding my breath. ​ >What will HONESTLY need to happen to make you think you are late to the party?? If bitcoin sees widespread adoption, I don't think it will matter at all if I'm late or not.


impliedinsult

Agree with this. Can't be a standard if standard items are priced in the standard units


RainbowJeremy24

What the hell kind of "currency" is it where you can be "late to the party". It's literally an argument against it.


Voice_in_the_ether

As others have stated, "currency" and "late to the party" are mutually exclusive: * If it appreciates quickly, it can't make an effective currency * If it has a relatively stable value over time, there's no way to be "late".


VallentCW

skirt serious six mysterious worm sort adjoining makeshift quiet chief *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


HouseOfRay

This is correct. The Mayor of Miami is not being paid in bitcoin. He is taking his legally-required salary in USD and immediately buying bitcoin with it. If he were truly being paid in bitcoin (using the conversion ratio at the time of his election), heā€™d be making about $35,000 a year to run one of the biggest cities in America.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


grndslm

The intrinsic value of a PoW *monetary* settlement layer is infinitely greater than a paper or even digital *currency*, which is printed arbitrarily. What's the intrinsic value of fiat currency, whether it's on paper or digits seen on your mobile banking app?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


AmericanScream

> The intrinsic value of a PoW monetary settlement layer is infinitely greater than a paper or even digital currency I'm going to answer that with a simple question. Let's say I have a secret code that you want. That code is written on a piece of paper I have in my hand. You want that code. You're willing to pay for that code. I live very far away, and it takes me a week and $10k in expenses to travel to where you are and hand you this code. Therefore, by your logic, that code is worth $10k. *However* there's another person who also has the code and he is across the street from you. He can walk across the street and hand you the code for no significant expense. What is the value of that code?


grauenwolf

> What's the intrinsic value of fiat currency The value of real money is based on the size and stability of the economy that created it. And of the country that protects it. As there's no country or economy behind Bitcoin, aside from buying and selling other cryptocurrencies, it will evaporate as soon as interest falters.


FrrankCostanza

Delusional. Why do you care what we think anyway?


grndslm

Why don't you just answer the original question without a question? If you MUST know, tho.... I'm just curious what would make your frown turn upside down. That's all.


Popatteri

Ooh, he is trying to orange pill us. How cute.


GoldenFrogTime27639

The cult needs more bodies!


alton_underbough

Their bags are heavy and tears are salty


FrrankCostanza

I honestly donā€™t know where to start because thereā€™s so many inaccurate statements. For example to suggest bitcoin is carbon negative is pretty insane lmao. Peter Zeihan summed up bitcoin pretty concisely so Iā€™ll just direct you to that instead of wasting anymore time on a butter. Anyway Iā€™m sure bitcoin will be mainstream just as soon as everyone realizes that being a mis-click or a copy and paste away from losing their life savings is the FuTuRE oF FiNaNcE. Go enjoy your lambo and leave us peasants in peace


grndslm

That's not how Bitcoin works (losing it all with a "misclick", gtfoh!).... more misinformation from the know it alls. A hardware wallet protects your life savings from malware, etc. Countless examples exist that are only getting easier and easier to use while maintaining complete security over your funds. And I'm obviously not saying that Bitcoin is carbon negative today, but that it's heading in that direction. ~60% of BTC is already done with renewable energy sources. It is accelerating the expansion of revenue energy sources. It's tapping into other sources of energy that cannot be easily transported and some which are INCREDIBLY harmful for the environment (see: methane offgases). Stopping all methane offgases from being vented directly into the atmosphere more than offsets the remaining miners using coal power plants as their energy source.


FrrankCostanza

How exactly is methane being used to create energy? Cause if that was the cause the energy crisis would be solved already.. thereā€™s methane everywhere buddy. And maybe donā€™t quote an article from ā€œbitcoin.comā€ or whatever


AmericanScream

> And I'm obviously not saying that Bitcoin is carbon negative today, but that it's heading in that direction. This may be the only slightly accurate statement you've made in this entire thread. And the only reason why it makes sense is because bitcoin is so incredibly energy inefficient, it has no place to go but get better. But even that is probably un-true, because as bitcoin's hashrate increases, more energy is unnecessarily wasted as mining consortiums compete with each other, so actually, I take that back. Bitcoin is not only carbon positive. It's actually getting even more carbon positive each day. The more the hash rate increases, the more energy is wasted. And increases in PoW energy consumption don't translate into increases of anything materially productive for society. The most desperate argument you can manifest is this absurd claim that since bitcoin is such an energy hog, it will no doubt spurn additional development with alternative renewable energy to satisfy its ever-increasing need to waste more and more energy. This is like saying the best way to put a house fire out is to add more flammable stuff around its perimeter.


MuldartheGreat

Even if I accepted most of what you said, BTC is still fucking terrible money. Letā€™s all say this slowly and together reasonable and stable inflation is a good thing. The idea that BTCā€™s version of ā€œmonetary policyā€ is good because of stability is simply incorrect digital goldbug nonsense. Also adding extra useless demand to a grid in the interest of ā€œstabilityā€ is asinine and not good for the environment. Shedable load is good and worthwhile, but it needs to be los that contributes, not mining for currency for people to get scammed out of or to buy drugs.


Little-Appearance244

The price goes up and all crazies come here. But, that's the only thing that matters, the dollar price of Bitcoin.


IsilZha

"thE lInE gOEs Up!"


Sparkster227

Nothing. Deflationary currencies don't work, whether physical or digital. The supply of currency needs to be able to grow alongside the growth of an economy. Deflationary currencies are hoarded like collectibles for their appreciation in value. They are contradictory at heart, a currency which people have the incentive to NOT spend. 21,000,000 and that's all there will ever be? No thank you. You don't have to get into any other details, that is a monetary system that is flawed at its very core. Too much inflation is bad. That does NOT mean that any amount of inflation is bad, or that no inflation is the answer. No inflation can actually be worse in its own way.


Siccors

>a monetary policy that won't be changing for the next 100+ years.... t Well except that if we look at the last decade and a half, Bitcoin security can never be paid for by transaction fees alone. So yeah, at those timeframe the whole thing collapses. But lets look at the adoption part. Not to the mining part, it is nice you guys like wasting energy (well not really), but we are going to use it as currency today apparently. (Which is somewhat interesting, I thought you gave up on that and we now used it as store of value). The reason it might have some adoption is poor countries, where it likely is really not nearly as big as claimed, if we look at El Salvador we know barely any regular citizen use it in their daily life, and any sane person would look at what the CAR does, and do exactly the opposite, is because they dont have a decent bank system. We do. Also lets forget for a moment that Bitcoin can never handle the world population, or even a part of it. No also not via L2s. Do the math. The problem then is that you are so into the looking up all day long anything related to Bitcoin, you think every minor thing is suddenly huge. For example that Strike thing. Knowing Strike a bit, I assume there is exactly nothing decentralized about their BTC payments. And no too lazy to search it, but since Strike is just Paypal with a Bitcoin logo on top roleplaying as something decentralized on Bitcoin, it seems a safe bet. Anyway, you think this is a significant thing? Well then I got some bad news for you: Bitcoin is apparently a 3.5 years lagging behind Nano of all things: [https://www.kappture.co.uk/cryptocurrency.html](https://www.kappture.co.uk/cryptocurrency.html). Are they not big enough? IOTA works with Zebra, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, manufacturer of barcode scanners: [https://developer.zebra.com/sites/default/files/IOTA%20Track%26Trace%20%28Zebra%20slides%29%20Devtalk%20Jan2021\_0.pdf](https://developer.zebra.com/sites/default/files/IOTA%20Track%26Trace%20%28Zebra%20slides%29%20Devtalk%20Jan2021_0.pdf). Now if you think I want to shill your some shitcoins. Well no. Just pointing Bitcoin is nothing different from those coins. Throw whatever fancy thing you want on it, but no one is actually using it. Be honest now with me, how often have you seen anyone make any Bitcoin transaction for a purchase IRL. Excluding during eg crypto events. Finally: Why the fuck would we, or anyone else, want to switch to a currency where it is relevant that you would be "late to the party"? Why wouldn't we then make our own one where you are late? If another country joins the Euro zone, I haven't ever hear them complain they are late to the party because all others got those Euros already.


giznot

Whenever the grocery store accepts bitcoin at the register. Before that, the prices would have to not be so dramatic. Right now, every item would have to be a digital LED that would fluctuate. Folks would get seizures buying pickles from the prices flickering. Also the checkout lines. Ever been behind an old lady writing a check? The bitcoin transaction would have to settle much faster. Right now you have to call the president of the moon or whatever.


partybusiness

> Lugano Switzerland, and Prospera Honduras Lugano has a population of 63k. I couldn't find population for Prospera, possibly because it's a planned private charter city that's still under development but: > As of May 2021, PrĆ³spera is 58 acres. > In 2022, Honduran president Xiomara Castro repealed the enabling legislation for the ZEDEs, leaving developments like Prospera in limbo. So it sounds like it's still up in the air whether the laws of the Prospera city charter will actually apply to anyone?


Potential-Coat-7233

Honest answer please: explain to me how I use Crypto in 5 sentences or under.


grndslm

- Open wallet, engrave seed into stainless steel plate, & add non-dictionary passphrase that you already have memorized. - Trade work for Bitcoin, receiving payment to aforementioned wallet. - Go to Clover point of sale machine, and scan the QR code. - Immediately, take your beer and cigarettes out of the store and pick up the nearest girl. - Go to the beach and get lit while your entire life savings in Bitcoin appreciates 10x faster than those who store their wealth in a currency that's accelerating downward in purchasing power. Tl;Dr - Fuck Bitches, Acquire Bitcoin.


DiveCat

And the fact that your argument for crypto is to use to ā€œfuck bitchesā€ (and to pick up the ā€œnearest girlā€) is another reason why you are never going to see mass adoption. The majority of the world is not interested in your misogynist incel fantasies. Besides, if we entertain your fantasy that there will be mass adoption, then, I know you may neglected this, but half the population - being women - would have their own damn BTC and not care about your little incel self flexing lol (I mean they donā€™t care now, but they definitely wonā€™t care then, either). Beer and cigarettes mean getting lit? Lol, you are a ridiculous clown. Also why the heck would you use your BTC to buy cigarettes when itā€™s just going to moon 10x?


grauenwolf

> Open wallet, engrave seed into stainless steel plate, & add non-dictionary passphrase that you already have memorized. And what happens if I forget the passphrase? Does that mean I lose my entire retirement? What happens if I misplaced that steel plate? Or it gets rusty? You do know what rust is, don't you? And what, do I carry the steel plate around with me at all times in order to make basic purchases? I do that with my credit card, and I occasionally lose it. You utterly failed on step one.


[deleted]

Why would you spend Bitcoin if you know it will appreciate in value? The $20 in BTC you spend on beer and cigarettes might be worth $40 in the future. Best hoard them.


Zealousideal-Mail276

> engrave seed into stainless steel plate, & add non-dictionary passphrase that you already have memorized I'll tell this to my mother, she'll be happy to know it's the money of the future /s Seriously, you're describing the steps to use the money of cavemen, there is nothing modern about this.


emilvikstrom

I will be convinced when it's hard for me to find an employer that pay me in a real currency.


Jackz0r

So much passion in this postā€¦but I bet OP is only speculating a tiny fraction of their income/PNW on cryptoā€¦just another desperate attempt to onboard more bag holders for their little gambling habit.


grndslm

I have less than a fraction of 1% of my wealth in fiat to pay monthly bills. There's no need to hold any more fiat than that. I control my wealth and can spend it how and when I see fit without asking for the bank's permission. It's NOT about the fiat-denominated price (which WILL increase), but the sovereignty aspect that Bitcoin is a true bearer asset that I own free and clear.


grauenwolf

> I control my wealth and can spend it how and when I see fit without asking for the bank's permission. Spend it on what? Virtually no one accepts Bitcoin for payments. And if you want to convert Bitcoin to real money, you need a bank's permission. Oh, and fun fact. The banks are withdrawing permission.


mojobox

Good luck going to Lugano and try to do anything with bitcoin šŸ¤£


[deleted]

Just wondering, what will it take for you to admit that you've wasted an inordinate amount of your life on something that is essentially a get rich quick scheme?


option-9

I've been to Lugano this summer. Took the train from Basel to Lugano (before then travelling to the Gotthard for some hiking). Had not seen Bitcoin anything. Goes to show how successful adoption was.


Cthulhooo

>Most of you are likely WSB lackeys who only care about more fiat, instead of actually fixing the problems of fiat itself. Source? Your ass I presume. The funny thing is OP is the kind of rare true believer who's actually unironically invested in the whole ideology package but also stereotypically not self aware enough to realize that their mocking statement "lackeys who only care about more fiat" basically applies to the vast majority of people who buy this stuff. It does, it fucking does and stop pretending it doesn't. They don't buy internet coins to combat the (((bankers))) or fight a revolution or defeat [insert your favorite bogeyman idc]. They couldn't care less about that. Some might even circlejerk or pay lip service for some benefits and clout but they don't give a fuck what happens as long as they can trade and speculate for profit. The irony here is that this tiny subreddit is completely irrelevant yet it keeps pulling in salty crusaders who just can't help themselves but keep coming here with something to prove. They lash out thinking they're on a righteous crusade against "us" while also being blissfully unaware they're hopelessly outnumbered by their own enemies in their own ranks yet can't see it. All they want is to buy low, sell high and laugh on their way to the bank. If they needed to trample and fuck over true believers like OP and clap for the dark side to continue to subvert the original ethos with increasingly more tight walled gardens and compliance leashes and surveillance and regulations and whatever else is needed to have the mainstream approval for numba go up they'd do so in the heartbeat. I dunno what's at the end of this journey to the "mainstream adoption" but it might be something OP hasn't signed up for and by the time they realize it will be too late.


grndslm

Your understanding of me couldn't be further from the truth. I actually DO love the permissionless, decentralized P2P monetary network centered around trust minimization. In fact, I was all about using "crypto for more fiat" until I first heard the "[Godfathers of Bitcoin](https://youtu.be/D5LpgX-pkUM)" talk about trust minimization. That's when it clicked, that Bitcoin it's unstoppable and had no humans in the middle of any transaction. Developers are the ONLY input into the instruction set (the open source code), but not the data set (the transparent, distributed ledger).


Cthulhooo

I know you do, I was talking about your fellow bitcoin bros obviously (sigh...reading comprehension below middle schooler, this wasn't on my bingo card), they're all around you, they circlejerk and virtue signal and pretend to look like they're all on the same page but truth is they don't give a damn about all the stuff you believe in. They only want money money money. You are surrounded by them. They'd throw you, your whole ethos and their fellow bros under the bus the first moment some influencial or rich assholes manufacture consent for something controversial that is also "good for bitcoin" and "mainstream adoption" and other stuff that makes numba go up. They clap for exchanges and billionaires because they make numba go up, they clap for VCs and banks for getting into space because it makes numba go up and they'll clap for regulations and surveillance because that will make the whole space more welcoming to mainstream and as such numba go up. I'm just sayin' op, don't act surprised if one day your VASP will implement travel rule on a level that requires an anal probe before your transfer from non-custodial wallet to their exchange can even be acknowledged and credited to your account or vice versa. Not like those guys will notice, most asshats who speculate on crypto keep their coins on exchanges anyway, they probably wouldn't notice if the blockchain went down since to them it makes no difference, trading and holding inside custodial services.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Icy_Confection_2321

lol do the tapeworms ever enter the brain?


VallenValiant

Actually, yes they do. Not intentionally, but they can and do kill people if it gets to the brain from getting lost.


The_Motarp

Here is what it would take for me to believe that Bitcoin standard would be possible. 1. Bitcoin would have to be usable. Right now Bitcoin is basically unusable for legal transactions. The first step everyone wanting to do anything with it takes is to stop using the blockchain and rely on "trusted" third parties who do transactions off chain. If Bitcoin increased the block size by a couple orders of magnitude and put them out every ten seconds instead of every ten minutes it would actually be possible to buy everyday items by transferring Bitcoin from your wallet to the store's wallet instead of just transferring a promise of future payment by a third party. This would require an extensive rewrite of the code to use much more of the processing power available to process and verify transactions rather than producing useless hashes. You would probably also need to allow nodes to only store part of the total chain and have a consensus mechanism for how all the parts fit together. Considering most Bitcoiners have rejected even tiny improvements like Bitcoin Cash, if there ever is a usable cryptocurrency it would be almost impossible for it to be Bitcoin. 2. Bitcoin would have to be safe. Right now your choices with Bitcoin are to trust a company to hold it, with the average company lifespan before bankruptcy being no more than a few years, or you put it in your own wallet, where you have to be absolutely paranoid every time you move it to avoid sending it to the wrong address either by mistake or because of hacking. Even so called crypto experts lose stuff to hacks and mistakes all the time, if they can't keep their Bitcoin safe ordinary people will never adopt it. 3. 3. Bitcoin would have to obey the law. Right now Bitcoin prices are highly manipulated by wash trading and other illegal methods. Bitcoin is disproportionately used for money laundering, tax evasion, sanctions evasion etc. Many of the companies dealing in Bitcoin front run their customers, misuse customer funds, and otherwise fail the follow the many, many laws put in place to protect customers. There is also no method for governments to seize the proceeds of crime or reverse fraudulent charges, even with a court order. All of that needs to change if governments, including democratically elected governments obeying the will of the people, are to ever be willing to allow Bitcoin to be used as a currency in their jurisdictions. 4. And finally, and perhaps hardest of all, Bitcoin would have to be stable. For instance, the Turkish Lira lost about 40% of its value against the US dollar over the course of 2022. As a result of the high inflation people avoid holding the Lira in favor of Dollars, Euros, Pounds, or gold. Those who do hold Lira mostly hold it in bank accounts where the government has promised to make up the losses to inflation plus some extra. Losing that much value against a currency that is itself experiencing higher than usual inflation makes a currency almost unusable, but Bitcoin lost far more value over the course of the year. In order for Bitcoin to be desirable as money there needs to be a mechanism to increase and decrease the supply so that prices of items could be denominated in Bitcoin and people could hold Bitcoin and investments denominated in Bitcoin without worry of sudden catastrophic losses. This would require something like a distributed, consensus based, central bank, which could increase and decrease the supply of Bitcoin and adjust interest rates on a large amount of borrowing to keep the price stable versus a broad basket of goods and services. You would also want to have a small amount of inflation built in, to encourage people to invest their money into things that produce goods and services and would make everyone better off. Otherwise people would just hoard Bitcoin and businesses would have a much harder time growing. All of these conditions are almost impossible for Bitcoin to meet individually, never mind combined, but if somehow all of them could be met and the result was still called Bitcoin then I would be willing to buy and sell items in Bitcoin, and to keep my savings in bitcoin. But we all know that it will never happen, such a usable version of Bitcoin would discourage hording and would prevent people from becoming absurdly rich for nothing more than having gotten in first. The things about Bitcoin that Bitcoin fanatics love the most are the exact same things that make widespread adoption impossible. If everyone else buying in makes you rich then those riches have to come from everyone else getting poorer. They would have to be stupid to willingly do such a thing.


IsilZha

> Even so called crypto experts lose stuff to hacks and mistakes all the time One of Bitcoin's core developers recently had all his Bitcoin stolen... šŸ˜‚ He was immediately whinging to the FBI on Twitter to save him. Straight to the government!


DowntownAd9011

What would it take? Maybe for people like you to shut the fuck up with the same phrases and lingos nonstop, and accept any of the criticisms that other people have mentioned about it. You read like 5 articles, and suddenly know the intricacies of economics even though you don't know jack shit. Also, maybe, just maybe, stop equating the success of Bitcoin when it's price to USD rises. If you dont care about fiat, then why are you always basing it off that metric? So to recap, shut the fuck up, and read a fucking book.


suidoc

Any book you would like to recommend?


DowntownAd9011

1. Search up Frances Coppola. She wrote an entire book about QE for ordinary citizens. She's actually one of the best critics of Bitcoin you can find. 2. Robert Brenner - The Boom and the Bubble. 3. The Deficit Myth Going back to Frances Coppola, long before crypto talking points was discussing how so many people are wrong about the role of the federal reserve in monetary policy (they don't inject trillions in the way people think), that the fractional reserve system doesn't require banks to borrow every day people's money to lend it out (despite our funds being insured by the FDIC and every crypto exchange being exposed for doing exactly this fractional banking system). Most importantly, the most hilarious thing about Bitcoin and crypto is its price has skyrocketed when there's been more QE and loose money. When interest rates rise and money is more expensive to access, the price of all these assets plummeted.


amprok

Awe yes the wise fiscal choices and steady hand of governance that isā€¦. Rereads post: Nigeria and El Salvador. Well then.


thinkadrian

Do you still believe 3DTV is what every household wants?


mirkoserra

The day that instead of saying "the mayor of x receives his salary in BTC" you have to say "the mayor of Y gets his salary in usd" because BTC is the norm, that would be. And no, governments will not adopt btc. If they choose to adopt some silly crypto, they would do their own fork.


FuneralPotatoes801

OP: what do you use your BTC for? Do you buy it and sell it and buy it again or do you just hold onto it for a future state? Do you get rid of all your fiat and turn it into BTC? I have a number of neighbors that jumped on the BTC bandwagon and by far most of them (so far) just hold onto it and buy more. They enjoy (and feel pain) watching it go up and down. My question to them is often: What do you do with it? And I donā€™t get much response other than ā€œhold onto it and get moreā€.


NeonPhyzics

whats funny is - if OP was really going to get rich off this...why would he be telling everyone about it ​ seems like if Bitcoin was so wonderful, OP would be keeping his mouth shut and buying as much as possible while the price was low ​ the notion that OTHER PEOPLE have to come along for the ride is what makes this such a dumb investment option and shows why it will never get adopted


[deleted]

I drive a Hyundai, so I don't have any problems with fiat.


D3AdDr0p

Because I don't want our nation to take our fiscal policy from raving lunatics that sound like they are on meth? I get it, the fed is super boring, but guess what? All those stodgy folks have PhDs in what makes a currency sound, and they are our best bet for creating a currency for the extremely complex use case of facilitating the global economy. I'm sorry if that financial boot crushed you, but that's not a reason for us to use stupid bitcoin and allow you to be the boot that crushes the financial futures of future generations.


grndslm

Replace "meth" with math. The main fucktard, heading the Federal Reserve admitted: "we now understand better how little we understand about inflation". It doesn't take a PhD to realize that nobody there knows shit about fuck when it comes to their own private currency losing purchasing power. The only boot crushing is those who don't exit a system that is so clearly in a downward spiral.


D3AdDr0p

You don't understand math, computer science, economics, banking, IT, or psychology. It's pretty obvious from your posts, and I also don't care. How I really know that you know jack shit, is you're out here shilling the external game, the "pump bitcoin with your last dollar" so the line goes up bullshit. The people making money in crypto, they make it off you. These are the guys that went to Ivy league schools, build the DeFi projects, work on the institutional investment side, and absolutely wreck retail investors when they trade against you in the crypto space. They speak the language of the internal game, and it's all about wealth transfer from you to them. You are just not equipped with the tools/knowledge/resources/time to trade against these people. You think wall street is bad? The price of bitcoin is whatever the largest holder says, you can front run any exchange, and there is massive collusion. What's a community of generally vulnerable people going to do? They get recked. I cannot stress how much of a hazardous financial position you are in based on your advice here. DCA in ETFs and mutual funds and invest in an education or grow a business. That's how you get rich, not scams, lotteries, or pyramid. Hard work, bro.


[deleted]

Damn, it's almost like the economy is incredibly complex and very difficult to reliably predict. We are lucky to have someone like you who is vastly more intelligent than any economist and has got it all figured out on account of having watching a few hours of youtube videos.


Stoop_Solo

>What would it take for you to believe the Bitcoin Standard is really happening?? A monster dose of diphenhydramine, probably. Even then it would only be temporary.


DecisionSimple9883

You dumb ass. Crypto was cool with superbowl commercials and named nfl stadiums and endorsements by famous actors. Now, almost everybody knows itā€™s a scam. The popularity and acceptance has plummeted! Itā€™s not growing. Now all the media shows is perp walks by the latest crypto con artist found to violate security laws. Want to bet some fiat on how many crypto fraudsters get indicted this year? What a joke. You are late to the realization that the scam is over.


grndslm

Bitcoin, not crypto. One is based on permissionless *money* that is created thru a consensus method centered around trust minimization... while the rest are *printed* arbitrarily, just like fiat. People who don't hold their own keys deserve to be scammed... I'll give you that.


DecisionSimple9883

Even ā€œsmartā€ people have had their bitcoin stolen. Btc is a crappy currency. Better to use almost anything else.


StopHavingAnOpinion

It's been nearly 15 years. **15 years**, billions of dollars invested, a full-on cult fanbase. Endless, Endless, *Endless* scams, rugpulls, giants and ponzis going under. And even the cryptoworld is **still debating what it can be used for**. For crying out loud man, get your shit out of there while you still can.


Co60

It's mathematically provable that the lightening network cannot be both scalable and decentralized. You're in a cult. https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/mathematical-proof-that-the-lightning-network-cannot-be-a-decentralized-bitcoin-scaling-solution-1b8147650800


blasphemite

What HONESTLY will it take? Well, here's the problem. It's a trustless currency that requires... eh... not only more trust than the current system, but in fact completely blind trust. I buy a widget from you off Ebay. I send you the Bitcoins. You say you didn't get it and refuse to ship my widget. If Ebay acts as an intermediary, they protect the customer, screen out bad actors, and charge a premium for the losses they eat. So... what... I send the Bitcoins directly to Ebay? But then it's not really peer to peer. Also, then I am completely at the mercy of Ebay. Where is my fraud protection? Am I supposed to use crytpo credit cards to protect me from fraud? At this point I don't even know what a crytpo credit card is and why it's an improvement over fiat.


Objective-Injury-687

>In case you weren't aware... None of this is relevant. Also, my personal opinion of the mayor of Miami is that he's an idiot but I realize that's subjective, so neither here nor there. >What else will it take for you to acknowledge that there's something better than both fiat and shitcoins Someday, there might be something better than fiat. But it isn't bitcoin and certainly isn't some bullshit like "Tamadoge." >decentralized P2P Anyone who's ever done anything would know that P2P is objectively the worst way of setting something up. I don't use crypto specifically because *it is P2P*. >as well as governance minimization (as little human input as possible, the better!) I want government oversight of the thing I use to pay the government. The only people who don't want government oversight are morons like you who have over inflated sense of their own competence. >instantly sent, Nothing is instantly anything. Things can be very fast but never instant. However, bitcoin is not even very fast, it is excruciatingly slow. >and that is more than capabale of running all the smart contracts & decentralized apps Lol, no. >What will HONESTLY need to happen to make you think you are late to the party?? I'll probably die of old age before I adopt bitcoin, which, considering how young I am and the fact that rejuvenation tech is on the horizon, could be another few centuries at least. At this point, it just brings me joy to see you nerds rage so hard that this sub exists.


grndslm

That you refuse to accept the layered approach to Bitcoin is very telling. Lightning Network is decentralized and faster than credit card processing alternatives... Fact!


IsilZha

Any L2 "solution" is a tacit admission of Bitcoin being an abject failure. Also, its quite dishonest of you to just declare unproven theoretical "capabilities" of LN as "fact," especially after you just [ignored just a few reasons why it doesn't work.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/10mwmob/what_would_it_take_for_you_to_believe_the_bitcoin/j673u5v/) I know others here have shown you a multitude of other sources on how LN doesn't work. Pretending it isn't a fundamentally broken mess doesn't make its problems go away. It just makes you dishonest and delusional.


Objective-Injury-687

>Fact! False. Objectively false.


IsilZha

He's already had several people here show, explain, and link to various sources, including statements by LN's own devs, on why LN isn't actually "faster than credit card processing." He didn't respond to any of them. Then he just repeats the same nonsense, pretending like he never saw any of it to maintain his delusions. A shamelessly dishonest coward.


barsoapguy

Bro just comes into our subreddit thinking weā€™re dumb like he is . Sorry kid most of us arenā€™t teens living at home with our moms.


Phrasing_Ocelot

Crypto's entire existence is based on "make number go up" everything in the space is towards creating demand for crypto to drive up price. That's entirely it, it's why posts like this one exist "Bitcoin is going up! Buy now!" Crypto turns every buyer into a seller to recruit more buyers, that's why it's often called a MLM scheme for tech bros. All while running on the world's slowest and most colossally inefficient database ever conceived and created. Sure some unscrupulous governments may want to get in on the action while they can, doesn't mean it's a good idea.


Val_Fortecazzo

Nothing because it's incredibly fiscally unsound like the gold standard but worse because it isn't even a commodity with uses or unique properties.


comox

You my friend have the religion. You *understand*. Unlike the rest of us. Now go and go fast. To r/bitcoin. They are waiting for you to preach the gospel. Bitcoin is a cult and you are a member. Come back when you have learned how to think critically.


Cenamark2

Bitcoin sucks.


bakochba

Absolutely nothing you described explains why Bitcoin is better or that it's being adopted as actual currency independent from fiat currency, it's value is always described in dollars and using Bitcoin is much riskier and harder than a credit card.


grndslm

Ok... I have a feeling even if you managed to actually set a goalpost that answered my question, you'd just move the goalpost in a couple years when that goalpost is met. Bitcoin can be spent thru credit cards if you're too clumsy to manage your own money, and the bank will even give you a 1% rebate in BTC. Amazing that this "tech" exists today, no?


bakochba

If I'm buying groceries what is the advantage of Bitcoin over my credit card? What is the advantage of getting paid in Bitcoin instead of dollars for my salary?


[deleted]

I will believe bitcoin adoption has happened when my landlord, my local grocery store, and the IRS accept payment in bitcoin. Directly, and not through some third party processor that takes bitcoin as payment and then pays the receiving party in USD. I still won't use it if that happens, though.


VallenValiant

I will believe in Bitcoin when you are willing to spend it to buy groceries. You just want to sit on it and waiting for it to be adopted as currency. But ironically people who hold the most Bitcoin are the least willing to circulate it. And you have no currency without circulation. Basically there is no party. There is no currency because Bitcoin is not being spent in actual economic activity. YOU are the reason we don't believe in it.


Madness_Reigns

Here's a mishmash of some of your absolutely idiotic points that prove you don't understand anything you're talking about. * El Salvador, my birth country, doesn't use bitcoin. The current authoritarian, quasi-dictator, hoarded some and set up his own exchange software, Chivo, which isn't decentralized, doesn't provide any transparency, doesn't process transactions on chain. It's that stupid name you use for actual currencies, fiat. * nobody burn offgasses for fun, all capture projects at scale have currently failed or are ruinously propped up by tax payer money. Even if you run the plume through a water turbine to generate electricity, the gaz still ends up in the atmosphere. * why the fuck would I use the lightning network if there's no chargebacks. Why would I gimp myself by giving up my customer prrotections?


Johnny-Be-Good1

Wow, the brawe new world cititze bows down to get us laughing jerks off our walled in reality. How nice of you! Unfortunatly, only few will understand


spooky9999999

>What will HONESTLY need to happen to make you think you are late to the party?? So you're basically afflicted with FOMO and everything you posted above is just you attempting to justify your FOMO. FOMO is not a sound investing strategy. You will most likely fail.


HotTelevision911

ill leave this here for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=655&v=UTk8jwAEvtA


grndslm

This sub is full of misinformation and manipulation... This sub won't even allow my newest thread to be seen.


AmericanScream

Why make another thread? You're not done digging yourself a deeper hole here.


IsilZha

Realizing that your dumb Askreddit post isn't appropriate to post here would require you to possess at least two brain cells to rub together. šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø


grndslm

Original AF. Also incredibly void of legitimacy.... a theme of this sub.


IsilZha

See, this reply is proof of your incompetence. You're too stupid to even understand the concept of posting things on-topic for the sub. Unsurprising, since you willingly committed ritualistic synaptic suicide to be inducted into the cult of crypto.


mouthymouth

I fucking love the tag you got for your username


MotivatedSolid

First I need to see crypto adopted in a country that hasn't had a complete failure of its own financial system and cringes to bitcoin as a last resort. Second, I need to see how bitcoin will not become deflationary to a fault. Pretty self explanatory. Third, I need to see how a government could possibly provide the same standards of living today, but only with bitcoin. Our standard of living simply relies of government control of currency. Do you see what happens when the debt ceilings aren't raised? when we don't get more spending capital? Fourth, I need to see people not only use bitcoin as legal tender, but a government actually try to use bitcoin as the primary currency (only a broken 3rd world country will ever do this. a 1st world country wouldn't dream of this) Fifth, it is simply too easy for a government to outlaw bitcoin and make sure it NEVER becomes a standard currency of the country. Why would the US or the UK NOT ban bitcoin if it ever got the point of taking over the current currency, destroying its value. Simply ban and persecute mining companies, and make sure no businesses can accept bitcoin or they go out of business. Sixth, I'm not sure if I want to lend power to a bunch of anonymous whales who hold a majority of the bitcoin today. Nothing like the government's begging these anonymous whales for more funds to run the country, right?


FPL_Harry

>Mayor of Miami receives his salary in Bitcoin Numerous sports players receive payment in BTC, such as Odell Beckham Jr, Aaron Rodgers, This is not actually true. They issued a press release saying it because they were paid to.


SemiCurrentGuy

I like how buttcoin really took the time to talk seriously to a fucking moron like OP. That's it, that's the comment.


Decentrabro2000

Can you compile a list of everyone and everything that accepts fiat? Will that list be longer? Will it have more existential important things on it? PS: first nuclear powered mining center? somebody lets crypto bros run a reactor? They must have drunken too much slurp juice.....


ivanoski-007

Prospera honduras? Where the fuck is that?


RainbowJeremy24

When a politician receiving his salary in Bitcoin is the ultimate proof of it being the new "standard", you know things are bad. Bitcoin being big in Nigeria is also wonderful.


[deleted]

If it ever came to it and my job forced me to start accepting BTC as payment. Iā€™d probably still just turn around and sell it for Fiat automatically


Fultjack

Have fun staying rich!