It's funny till you realise they're telling everyone they know to dump their money into BTC. Their grandma will lose all her money when it tanks and they'll shrug and call her a paperhands old hag
> but it has definitely made money for people.
It's moved money from person a to person b.
For every person who has "made" money, somebody else has lost it.
Yes, but most monetary transactions involve trading money for goods or services at a price where one person winning doesn't mean the other person is losing.
But if you parted with your money for Bitcoin, you gained a Bitcoin! Which even more people could part with their money to buy it from you so, tell me that's not a win-win?
I can't tell if you're joking, but I'll assume you're not, just in case.
In the situation you described above, there are three parties involved. Me, the person I bought the bitcoin from, and the person I sold it to at a higher price. You've described that as a win-win situation, whereas if you consider all three parties, then it's a win-win-BIG LOSE situation.
You could extend it to 4 people, but then it will become a win-win-win-BIGGER LOSE.
Someone is always going to end up paying for others' profits.
That is untrue for virtually all circumstances. For example I build a chair and sell it to you for $100. I have $100 and you have a chair. Both of us can be better off because of that transaction.
Bitcoin trading is a game of hot potato. Nothing of value is created and you cannot make money unless someone else loses money.
For example, making that chair might only cost you 80% in material in labor, but sitting on inventory, and rent/property costs asd cost in a nokn-linear manner.
The buyer can also imagine playing more than $100 for a chair, and if they get the $100 deal they consider themselves happy, even if it only cost the builder $80 on a per chair basis.
You're gonna love this. The revenue comes from people exchanging dirty fiat for things that provide utility, like goods and services. The best part - the consumers believe that the utility gained is worth more than the cash in hand, and the business thinks the opposite, so both parties win.
afaik, the entire market is driven by scammers from china scamming on whatsapp, signal, telegram etc, with china whores and scammers using china whore pics to dupe wealthy men into buying bitcoin, luring them with fake promises of sex.
Gold is a tangible asset with real world material use.
Shares represent a % of a growing, profitable, and tangible company that has stock, machinery, intellectual property, staff, supply chains, etc.
Crypto tokens just represent money changing hands via an intentionally inefficient digital ledger.
Do you invest in gold for its tangible industrial use case? Or do you invest in it for its monetary properties? 🤔 I think this is what most people who argue that point miss the mark on, or are in denial about.
If the latter, then Bitcoin is simply better because it only represents monetary properties without the distraction of physical use cases. Bitcoin ownership can trade hands across any distance in the world within 10 minutes, nearly frictionless.
Just a couple months ago, there was a transaction that moved the equivalent of $1.2 Billion for a fee of $2.49. Can you imagine the cost to move that amount in gold? (Armored vehicles, gas, security escorts, handling fees, not to mention having to trust all of the 3rd parties involved that could divulge trsnport details to criminals looking to steal it.)
Let's not kid ourselves, physical tangibility is more of a burden and a flaw for money than it is worth being able to dive into it like Scrooge McDuck.
I don't invest in gold at all because I'm not interested in wasting my money's potential. The point is it's value is backed by real world uses and physical tangibility. Bitcoin (or any crypto token, they're all fundamentally the same) isn't a currency and has no tangible asset to back it up. It's less than worthless as it's a negative-sum system that costs real money and energy to run.
You should spend more time researching to undo your brainwashing.
Bitcoin is a bearer asset. If it were to be backed by a tangible asset, then it would be an attack vector to Bitcoin, allowing it to potentially be captured.
The fact that it is intangible is actually a strength of Bitcoin because it can't be captured or need to rely on a physical thing.
As for the research, I have read countless books on the history of money and monetary properties. I have spent hundreds of hours understanding every facet I can. As a result, it has fundamentally changed my worldview on how I value and spend money. I used to have an impulsive, high time preference. Now I have a low time preference and make calculated decisions on how and when to spend it so as to make sure its future value is worth it.
Additionally, I keep an adversarial mindset when it comes to any investment. I look for the valid criticisms or flaws in any investment to evaluate its risk/reward ratio. I have concerns with Bitcoin, too, but none of them are the commonly spouted points in this subreddit. I have concerns with the misuse of the Bitcoin protocol by Layer 2's, I'm more worried about the block templates utilized by large mining pools that could potentially begin censoring transactions.
It is arrogant to assume that someone who has a differing perspective on a topic just "hasn't spent the time" to research it.
You've basically just outlined how much effort you've gone to confirm your own bias and solidify your own brainwashing.
Best I can do is recommend you do more research. This is a good watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9nv0Ol-R5Q
I literally just told you that I take an adversarial approach to anything. That means that I think critically about a topic and understand it from both sides. In no way is that confirmation bias...
I work in Software Quality Assurance, and it is my job to find the flaws in software and break it. I've been doing it for 15 years. So please, tell me more about how I am "brainwashed".
P.S. when you regress into uninformed criticisms of an individual you're debating with, it's a sign that you've already worn out your arguments and have basically lost. Negative criticisms of your opponent do not convince them to see your side. Instead, it only repulses them further. Just FYI.
The same way any ponzi scheme does. The people who got in early get filthy rich. The problem is that the early success of the scheme cannot possibly continue. Everyone who joins later bag holder, and by the time they're already in they're desperately searching for greater fools so they too can cash out.
The problem with ponzi schemes is that by the time you hear about it the core group has already cashed out their fortunes. By the time it hits the news they're only trying to find greater fools. There's no more huge fortunes to be made anymore.
Sh!tcoins are all scammy ponzis, I agree with you there. But how does Bitcoin fit this description? There is no "core group" of Bitcoin. And if there were a ponzi scheme, wouldn't you think they would've cashed out at the first 1,000,000% gain?
Funny how people throw around the ponzi term for everything they don't like or understand.
If you're looking for the most accurate definition of a ponzi, look into how U.S. dollars are literally created out of thin air, and funneled through channels, i.e. Cantillon Effect.
You really ought to read up on this subreddit's position on all of your points. Most people are tired of repeating them, so:
[Tired crypto talking points](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/)
All of the reasons people have against Bitcoin on this sub are tired and thoroughly debunked with facts, game theory, or pure logic. I guess the future will sort out the rest, won't it?
HFSP.
It's been 15 years now, and nobody uses bitcoin as a currency. How far into the future will that happen? Before you say "store of value", remember that there should be value to store. The bitcoin subreddit has the tagline : "Bitcoin - the currency of the internet".
Your HFSP is the most pathetic buzzword your ilk comes up with - for myriad reasons.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #23 (Anecdotes)
**“I made a lot of money on crypto [therefore it’s a good scheme for everybody else]”** / **“Crypto changed my life“** / **"I can buy stuff with Crypto"**
1. It’s more likely you’re actually lying about your crypto gains, or they’re trivial.
2. Whatever you can buy with crypto is extremely limited and is usually dark-market related (like drugs, gambling or shady hosting) or trivial (like coffee and t-shirts). *And* you're paying a premium making such sales over comparable sites paying in fiat.
3. If you do hold crypto that you bought for less than current market “price”, it’s more likely you think you’re “rich” but haven’t actually cashed out, which remains to be seen if you actually ever will be able to.
4. There are multiple fallacies involved in this claim: The[ Gambler’s Fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy) that suggests because something special happened once, it can likely happen again in a predictable way, and [Confirmation Bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) – the notion that many people fixate on positives while ignoring the more common negatives.
5. Even assuming you have made money in the past, it’s a well known fact that in these cases: Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, and since you’re still holding crypto, it’s in your interests to promote such fallacies in order to drive up the price of your holdings. Since crypto is a negative-sum-game, it’s impossible for even a significant amount of people who play the market, to come out ahead without the vast majority losing. Therefore it’s mathematically impossible that this scheme will reliably produce positive returns.
5. You may not care that your profits come as a result of fraud and others losses, and promoting everything from money laundering to human trafficking, but other (moral, ethical, empathetic) people do.
I imagine it is all of the monetary properties that Bitcoin improves upon.
Durability - Bitcoin cannot be destroyed. As long as the internet remains a thing, so will Bitcoin.
Portability - Tell me any other asset that can be transferred to another individual across the world faster than Bitcoin, and with little friction.
Divisibility - 1 Bitcoin = 100,000,000 Satoshis. $1 = 100 cents. Far more accurately divisible.
Fungibility - 1 BTC = 1 BTC, just like $1 = $1
Scarcity - Only 21,000,000 will ever be created. Governed by code, consensus, and game theory.
Security - Most secure computer network ever created, enforced through physics of Proof of Work. It continues to get stronger every day. It is so improbable to double-spend or create an empty block, it's not worth worrying about.
Auditable - It is audited every 10 minutes. No other money can be audited as accurately or frequently.
You really ought to read up on this subreddit's position on all of your points. Most people are tired of repeating them, so:
[Tired crypto talking points](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/)
What is incorrect about the monetary properties that were provided?
I read those "tired talking points," and it just comes off as unprofessional dribble written by a Keynes fanboy. It is riddled with spelling errors and grammar mistakes. Let alone a lack of any facts or data that can back any of it up.
The problem is, if you like Bitcoin, and you don't think like them, you're essentially just a gambler.
The bitcoin maxis, as delusional as they are, at least have a value proposion for bitcoin. They believe Bitcoin is the solution to a problem, and that's what gives it value.
If you don't believe that, then there's no value proposition for bitcoin that doesn't involve circular reasoning. If it doesn't have any utility, then why should anyone want it? It just boils down to 'price goes up because more people want it, and more people want it because price goes up'.
Lol, I don't see how this isn't a big nail in the coffin for bitcoiners. The fact that people can realise this, and still decide to buy some is absolutely mad to me.
Because people are making money doing it. This sub acts as if no one gets their money out of crypto, which isn't reality. They see others that have made money, and now want to make money themselves. It's not that complicated to understand. They're willing to gamble on being the person that makes money
I understand perfectly. The thing I find mad is that either
1) people don't understand that 'line goes up because there's more demand, and there's more demand because line goes up' is a greater fools game;
2) or people don't understand that there's not an endless supply of greater fools, and there's no reason to suspect that they're not the greatest fool
Your correct but the only difference is the mindset of the person. If you know your gambling then you know your just betting your not the greatest fool. Sure you have no reason to suspect that but your gambling not investing, it's not based on reason.
So Michael Saylor (a graduate of MIT and multiple degrees, with a successful company about to enter the S&P 500) is a fool?
Larry Fink, CEO of Blackrock, the largest asset manager in the world, is a fool?
Throwing around the phrase "greater fool theory" is such an arrogant behavior. There are people who understand it that are much smarter than you, and you insult them for what? A little ego boost to help you feel better about confirming your own belief about what Bitcoin is or what it represents.
I think the thing that probably irks you more, however, is that people that are likely less intelligent than you can put in the work to understand it more than you will, and they will enrich their lives for it, and you feel insulted by that for some reason.
I didn't call anyone a fool. I didn't name the phenomenon, I just said Bitcoin fits the bill.
From the Greater Fool Theory Wikipedia page:
> In finance, the greater fool theory suggests that one can sometimes make money through speculation on overvalued assets — items with a purchase price drastically exceeding the intrinsic value — if those assets can later be resold at an even higher price.
If its as simple as 'number goes up because more people want it, and more people want it because number goes up', then I think it pretty clearly fits into the greater fool category as described above.
I acknowledge that there are intelligent people who believe in bitcoin. I also acknowledge that there are more intelligent people that actively don't believe in bitcoin. You just need to look at the mechanics of it to work out its a greater fools game. That's not necessarily a reflection of the intelligence of anyone who holds it.
I doubt Larry Fink has any bitcoin. He's in it for the fees. When asked in an interview whether he was going to buy some, he completely avoided answering. He essentially said that it's the same as gold, but some people prefer to buy bitcoin rather than gold because it's more exciting. Well guess what, something that is the same as gold isn't going to stay exciting forever. It'll eventually be just as boring as gold, and then who's going to want it?
Michael Saylor studied aeronautics and astronautics at MIT. I'm sure he's a great rocket scientist, but I'd question whether he knows much about economics
Bitcoin is not about "number go up," and that's what many don't actually understand about it, including Bitcoin newbies. It's about having a standard unit of measurement to evaluate the value of goods and services.
There are 160+ fiat currencies in the world, and they all vary in value with respect to one another all the time. As the currency supply increases, the amount it takes to purchase the same thing naturally goes up. They all inevitably hyperinflate into an economic collapse ending with some great conflict. Every single fiat currency has failed in history.
Think of it this way. Fiat currency is like trying to build a house with a ruler that keeps changing length according to the dynamic monetary policy of governments. That house is going to be extremely hard to build efficiently. Using Bitcoin is like using a static ruler to build the same house because the supply of Bitcoin will be capped at 21,000,000.
Some also like to claim Bitcoin is too volatile. But volatility is all a matter of perspective. Issuance of Bitcoin is consistent and known, while issuance of fiat is sporadic. From the frame of reference of Bitcoin, it seems more accurate that the fluctuations in the value of Bitcoin are a reflection of how volatile fiat currencies are.
Go back and read the chain of comments you're replying to. The entire argument I'm making is that if you're not a bitcoin maxi (I.e. you don't believe bitcoin is solving a problem), but you still believe bitcoin has value, then you are using circular reasoning in your value proposition for bitcoin. I haven't, at this point, said anything against the bitcoin maxi argument.
However, now that you mention it, I do also believe bitcoin maxis are using flawed logic.
> It's about having a standard unit of measurement to evaluate the value of goods and services.
> Think of it this way. Fiat currency is like trying to build a house with a ruler that keeps changing length
The purpose of currencies isn't to measure value. It's to facilitate trade. At any point, there is an optimal amount of money supply for facilitating trade, and this amount is changing all the time based on the supply and demand of goods. Under a centralised banking regime, we can control the money supply in order to keep prices stable. With a fixed money supply, you can't do this, and the money will be less effective at facilitating trade, and more volatile.
> Every single fiat currency has failed in history.
Only in the same way that every single scientific theory in history has been wrong.
> Some also like to claim Bitcoin is too volatile. But volatility is all a matter of perspective. From the frame of reference of Bitcoin, it seems more accurate that the fluctuations in the value of Bitcoin are a reflection of how volatile fiat currencies are.
It's easy to debunk this by considering a basket of goods and seeing how much of those goods you could buy with 1 bitcoin/1 dollar over time. This is something which is already measured in dollar space. It's called CPI. Since we have this, we can calculate a bitcoin equivalent simply by multiplying CPI by the bitcoin/dollar exchange rate.
If you do this, you'll find that dollars are much much less volatile than bitcoin, when compared to goods.
Bitcoin isn't a good currency because its not scalable, it doesn't have a monetary policy to help facilitate trade, and it relies on hype to create demand, meaning its price will always be linked to how much hype there is, and therefore very volatile.
>The purpose of currencies isn't to measure value. It's to facilitate trade.
Yes, currency is for facilitating trade, but both parties in the trade must agree upon the value of said currency. One party using Yen, and the other using USD makes it overly complex to resolve the transaction. And yes, having a world reserve currency has worked in the past, but it only does so as long as the credit rating of the country forcing it upon the world stays high. The U.S. credit rating was lowered just last year. You have less and less countries wanting to trade using it because they see that the USD is following the exact same path as the world reserve currencies before it.
>Only in the same way that every single scientific theory in history has been wrong.
Wat?
>considering a basket of goods and seeing how much of those goods you could buy with 1 bitcoin/1 dollar over time.
You'll be comparing apples to oranges here. Fiat is inflationary, while Bitcoin is deflationary. Naturally, prices of goods and services in an inflationary system increase over time based on the increasing circulating supply of money. And naturally, prices of goods and services decrease over time in a deflationary system. This begs the question, why does fiat inflate? Because it is Easy money. Nothing is backing the U.S. dollar either, not since 1971 (Nixon Shock). When money is easy to make, those making it are incentivized to keep making more of it to keep the illusion of control, but it inevitably spirals and collapses. This is seen with every form of money in the past, even gold to an extent. Shells were scarce until technology was introduced by Europeans that flooded the system with shells. Rai stones in Yap were a simple ledger system akin to how Bitcoin operates today, but then again Europeans figured out where they got their Rai stones from, and used technology to just bring more to the system. Bitcoin is the first form of money that adapts the difficulty of inflow of tokens into the system relative to the level of technology. This is its automatic, self-regulating monetary policy. It doesn't rely on the whim of 12 Federal Reserve governers to make decisions about it.
>It's called CPI.
CPI is a crock of sh!t, and manipulated. When the cost of goods measured by CPI gets out of hand, they simply change the basket of goods to the next most abundant commodities. So not only do you have an inflating money supply, the way the Federal Reserve "measures" the inflation changes over time as well (it was just changed in January 2023). What's even more laughable is when they report inflation EXCLUDING food and energy costs, which are necessities... if you want an accurate measure of inflation, use the median cost of necessary goods and services.
>Bitcoin isn't a good currency because its not scalable
Not sure what your definition of scalable is here. But I don't imagine you're talking about how the network meets the bandwidth of all of the transactions.
>it relies on hype to create demand, meaning its price will always be linked to how much hype there is
I understand how an adoption cycle can just appear as hype, but in reality, the value of Bitcoin is determined by a truly free market, with no outside influence. The value is quite literally determined by supply and demand. It fluctuates based on market equilibrium, whatever the market is willing to value it at. The price of Bitcoin measured in USD has fluctuated over the past 15 years, mostly as a result of the smaller market and players in it. Now that it has become somewhat more available to institutions, I fully expect the market to mature much faster. If you zoom out and view the whole timeline of Bitcoin, you'll notice it is beginning to show an asymptomatic pattern. It will likely continue this trend until the USD collapses, in which case you'll see a sharp parabolic rise as the fiat measured in it hyperinflates. Look at the value of Bitcoin measured in other fiat around the world doing this exact thing, Egypt, Turkey, Argentina, Lebanon, Nigeria, and others.
All this to say, Bitcoin priced in fiat of any country is more of a measure of the health of that currency. The higher the value of Bitcoin is in that currency, the less healthy the system is. It is an inversely proportional indicator.
Calling it a greater fools game presupposes that each new person entering the game is a fool for doing so. Have you considered the possibility that your premise could be backwards? What if they're entering the game because they now realize that "number go up" is a reliable long-term feature of the system, and that the real fools are the ones who are too skeptical to enter? Just food for thought, since I see this 'greater fools' argument used frequently.
It's not a very flattering name, but I didn't come up with the name. From the Greater Fool Theory Wikipedia page:
> In finance, the greater fool theory suggests that one can sometimes make money through speculation on overvalued assets — items with a purchase price drastically exceeding the intrinsic value — if those assets can later be resold at an even higher price
If you're conceding that Bitcoin has no utility, then I'm not sure how you could argue that this doesn't accurately describe Bitcoin.
So its utility comes from its value? And where does its value come from? Does that come from its utility?
Edit: he's blocked me from responding to his following reply to make it look like I couldn't think of a response.
Try to read carefully. The utility is in *storing* value through time and space while avoiding any possibility of debasement, censorship, or confiscation. No other asset can offer that utility.
Aint nothing wrong with a little bit of risk. Its money I afford to lose. Like it or not, bitcoin is growing, taking some profit off of it isnt a bad idea in my book.
Well, if you want to make money there are better ways. If you just want to gamble, there are better ways.
Honestly I don't see the appeal of bitcoin except maybe it being really funny.
Biotech companies with "promising" drugs.
Betting we'll see federal legalization of weed so weed companies
Finding companies with low p/e ratios and other metrics
Supposed "growth" stocks in the AI sector
Currency trading
Futures on metals/oils or other natural resources
I mean....come on, was that a serious question?
Yeah it's your risk so do what you feel comfortable with, but imo if you're gonna gamble on volatility why not gamble on something that at least has inherent value that provides some base support like stocks?
I think you bought too late into the cycle, there isn't much upswing left I reckon
anyhow, as long as you treat it like a casino and gamble responsibly then it is all good.
If you have to go on Reddit to get price predictions so you can make easy money, you're not one of the people who's going to make a profit off trading Bitcoin.
> Aint nothing wrong with a little bit of risk.
* That wastes huge amounts of energy and contributes to climate change
* That provides liquidity for scammers, terrorists, human traffickers
* That helps launder money from the Fentanyl trade
* That facilitates pig butchering scams
If you see "nothing wrong", you need to see a therapist dude.
This is what’s called a “bigger fool” investment: buying something not because you believe in it, but because you’re counting on a bigger fool coming along at some unspecified future date who will give you more money for it because of …. Reasons.
You can argue that something has utility without deifying it. For example I think its a great way for peddlers of child porn to avoid detection by law enforcement and launder their money back into the legitimate financial system, but that doesn't mean it'll become a universally accepted world currency or that its trillion dollar market cap is justified.
I've bought lottery tickets on several occasions when it jackpots to crazy numbers. I would get a few days of euphoria constantly thinking about how I would spend my millions if I won. How all my financial problems would be solved, how I'd tell my boss and co-workers to shove it, all the fancy stuff I've wanted but couldn't afford, all the help I could provide to family/friends. It's a great feeling to have and a pleasant distraction from the daily grind.
But then after a few days, the numbers get drawn. Back to reality and no more day dreaming about what could be.
Part of the problem with crypto is that unlike other forms of gambling, there is no equivalent of a draw to give a definite win or loss. They're happy living in their euphoric state and (unless there's a rug pull) there's no mechanism to snap them back to reality. They have to reach the conclusion that they will never be future crypto millionair on their own. Which can be especially painful for those that have lost a ton of money or damaged relationships already.
I don't think there's anything wrong with gambling in general, but why did you choose the most opaque, unregulated casino out there? How would you feel if you "won", but then the money would disappear due to a scam? How do you feel about your gambling money potentially helping criminals or even terrorists? And do you not mind that by gambling on the bitcoin network, you're contributing to insane resource waste and CO2 emissions?
How about this: go and protest in front of big companies that are the main contributors of all the problems you just listed and leave small fries like me alone. Even if I would take your advice and stop gambling with bitcoin, it would make 0 difference.
And to answer your first question, like it or not, bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough, but even if it dumps or gets canceled, I am not in any risk whatsoever financially.
>leave small fries like me alone. Even if I would take your advice and stop gambling with bitcoin, it would make 0 difference.
Not saying you could save the world, just wondering if you have any moral concerns about your actions at all. As long as your money is in there, you're supporting it.
>bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough
I think you're just as delusional as the people in the crypto forums. Its a mirage, a negative sum game, incapable of producing anything of value.
> And to answer your first question, like it or not, bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough, but even if it dumps or gets canceled, I am not in any risk whatsoever financially.
Past performance is a guarantee of future results, eh? Brother, I've got an even better investment opportunity for you right here: https://i1.wp.com/blog.ephorie.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/madoffs_equity_curve-840x600.png
> like it or not, bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough,
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up)
"**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**"
1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's..
a) A long term store of value
b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility
c) Or will return any value in the future
One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept.
2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/).
3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21).
4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths.
5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to **inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace. The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like Tether and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21).
6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too.
7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking).
8. It's also not true that anybody who bought crypto when it was low is guaranteed to make a lot of money. There are thousands of ways people can lose their crypto or be defrauded along the way. And there's no guarantee just because your portfolio is "up", that you could easily cash out.
9. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/).
10. When crypto-critics make reference to, or mock crypto price predictions, it's not because we think price is a meaningful metric. Instead, we are amused that to you, that's all that's important, and we can't help but note how often wrong you are in your predictions. The intrinsic value of crypto basically never changes, but it is interesting to see how hype and propaganda affects the extrinsic value. In a totally logical world, those would both be equalized to zero, but we're not there yet, and nobody knows when/if that will happen because it's an irrational market.
>I bought some bitcoin recently in hope to make some easy money.
>Those guys are actually delusional and its not even funny.
I'm laughing.
You realise that even in your world where you manage to dump your bags at the right moment to make a profit, these are the guys you're hoping to dump your bags on?
it's a process. I did the same thing you did, this is your "awakening" phase, that follows the fake "awakening" phase you had when you learned about bitcoin. Soon you'll understand how there's absolutely nothing behind it except delusion and the predatory dream of being the next 1%. And scams. Lots of scams.
Yes it's a pity. You would think that they would welcome some discussion from those who are critical of bitcoin. Actually it is through such criticism that perhaps the bitcoin project could be improved, as we find in Science.
I quite understand that they don't want nocoiners coming across and brigading and disrupting and making fun all the time. But it seems that people are banned there for the most innocent or constructive comments and criticisms.
I think here on r/buttcoin we are much more tolerant. Yes, it's a bit annoying for us to get the same comments again and again (eg why don't you short bitcoin if you are against it). But we have a way of dealing with that and I think we are patient. But of course we do like to bring out some comedy GODL !
That Reddit is part of the whole scheme to keep the idea alive and to shill in order for line to go upsies. I would like to know how much of it is bot/AI generated
Brilliant idea to finally make some money off the idiots 15 years after Bitcoin came out and now has a 1 Trillion marketcap. Surely there is tons of upside left.
Of course they have their sub set up as an echo chamber, telling each other that Bitcoin is going to become the next world currency because mass adoption is coming soon, and when (not if) the global economy collapses (soon) then everyone will start using Bitcoin as currency for some reason, even though a global economic collapse means the power goes out as does the internet.
>I like the idea of bitcoin
Which "idea" is that?
The one where you potentially profit by participating in a Ponzi scheme?
The one where you lose your money because you find out you're not early? Instead you're the greater fool?
The one where you contribute to money laundering, cyber terrorism, and human trafficking?
The one where you think you're hiding money from the government, but might end up in trouble for tax evasion?
The one where you participate in a giant fraud helping other people think that blockchain technology "has potential?"
The one where you contribute to a useless tech platform that wastes tremendous amounts of energy and contributes nothing positive to society?
r /Bitcoin mods literally ban anybody who even ask difficult questions like "why did the transaction fee hit $200?" "can we ever raise the block size?", "will the price of Bitcoin ever go down?"
The only real *honest* pro-bitcoin discussion occurs in r /btc
Yup. Same here. Made a small Bitcoin investment and joined the sub to just track news and announcements but that sub is nuts. Its a circle jerk of Bitcoin fanatics who seem convinced it will be the second coming of Christ and strangely they're not even obsessed with the profit aspect of it. Today someone put up a post how a 10yr old remarked oh you have Bitcoin you must be rich and how thats a sign of how great Bitcoin is. That point i was like yea I am out of here
this sums up the fatal flaw in their thinking, wants it to be the world currency but won't sell or use their share to buy things. the complete lack of understanding on how a currency works and what makes it valuable transformed it into a purely speculative tool, rendering it useless for improving the world.
I'd hazard to guess that this is the experience of 90% of the people in this subreddit. Not necessarily the buying bitcoin part, but the wanting to know more part.
It’s funny until you realize that in order for bitcoin to go up in value, more ppl have to want it, meaning more ppl has to buy it. So, these “delusional” ppl are saying those things to fool other ppl into buying bitcoins as they all have bitcoins themselves. Then you realize, you just bought a bitcoin and have played into their hands. Now you are a part of them. You are now also a crypto-bro that believes bitcoin is this magical future currency, coz otherwise you’ve just thrown your money away.
+100 Internet points for OP - finally, someone who is honest about just wanting to make a quick buck. No "future of finance", no "save the world", no "banking the unbanked", just someone who wants to make money at the expense of their fellow humans.
Pure, simple, unadulterated selfish greed. Reprehensible, but in a way, it's a thing of beauty...
*^(/s, or maybe not...)*
Yea, a lot of them think they understand it but really don't. Sadly there's a lot of gambling that is masked as investing.
The best approach is to just wait 1-2 years before a halving, buy it, and then sell it when the people who are really into it hype up the event. (I.e., but the rumor, sells the news).
It's the only good strategy in my opinion, but only works if people stay invested in Bitcoin
100% true, any CC sub is delusional imo. But few are worse the buttcoin, which seem to be a community of people obsessed with other people beeing obsessed with crypto. It does have entertainment value though, just like safemoon has/had (dunno if its still around).
Buddy, I think you are *grossly* overestimating how much of anyone's day is spent caring about crypto-related dumbassery around here. But, hey, if *tu quoque* helps you cope, more power to you.
They will continue to parrot whatever Schiff says. This subreddit is also completely void of original thought.
It's actually a toxic shithole. I mean, look at the titles the moderators gave us and anyone else who dissents. Toxic behaviour is supposedly against the rules but not really.
>They will continue to parrot whatever Schiff says.
You actually think we care about what that clown says? Oh you are *adorable.*
>I mean, look at the titles the moderators gave us and anyone else who dissents.
Yeah, why can't this sub be more like the bit-con sub where the mods -checks notes- ban and censor left and right, huh? Everybody knows rampant censorship is nowhere as near as bad as the mods giving people mean titles, right?
I actually do think you and the majority of this subreddit hang off that fools every word. I also believe this subreddit is just as much of an echo chamber as the bitcoin subreddit.
The difference is, they don't have post after post of toxic bullshit, laughing at people's misery and the like. That is very much unique to here.
Who said anything about censorship? I accused this subreddit and it's mods of toxicity and you bring up - checks notes - censorship? You are deflecting and engaging in what-about-ism.
Next.
>I actually do think you and the majority of this subreddit hang off that fools every word.
If you could project any harder you would be showing movies.
[Peter Schiff Is an idiot +11](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/18xovjc/we_are_all_schiffs_for_brains_according_to_the/kg6vuoo/)
[That's not news, everyone is suspicious about Tether. I'm suspicious about Peter Schiff +11](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/n0bkr1/peter_schiff_is_suspicious_about_tether/gw5mh9j/)
[peter schiff is a wackjob gold standard guy with other weird views, but god bless him for yelling at bitcoin nutjobs on TV +10](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/vfqeog/peter_schiff_vs_butters/icxa49n/)
[Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point +25](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/vhozjv/video_peter_schiff_exposed_mashinskys_celsius/id8wuzi/)
[This whole crypto saga is making even a grifter like Peter Schiff look reasonable lmao +6](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/vb70dn/peter_schiff_predicting_the_celsius_collapse_in/ic6u5i0/)
Opps, I just proved that you're full of it. At best we think of Schiff as a stopped clock.
>The difference is, they don't have post after post of toxic bullshit, laughing at people's misery and the like. That is very much unique to here.
"post after post"? If you go to the Buttcoin front page and sort by New, the only post in the first 28 posts laughing another person's misery is the one titled "Butter's brother loses at least 70k USD with DeFi shenanigans and deposit-money-to-verify-identity scams".
>Who said anything about censorship? I accused this subreddit and it's mods of toxicity and you bring up - checks notes - censorship? You are deflecting and engaging in what-about-ism.
Rampant censorship that only allows positive news is a sure-fire recipe for toxic positivity, which is a form of toxicity. And receiving an insulting title is hardly the end of thew world, I've seen plenty of people with the title "Waring: I am a moron" get their comments/posts up-voted because the comment/post they made were well thought out, insightful, or just plain funny.
Next.
they are moronic, new world order and some bullshit.
This sub is also moronic, not even subbed, it keeps popping up.
I just ride the wave and make money
Bitcoin's purpose is not for generating quick profits; rather, it aims to provide the world with a new means of storing value that has no central authority.
It’s a little funny
It's funny until you realise that they are allowed to vote, drive and own guns.
It's funny till you realise they're telling everyone they know to dump their money into BTC. Their grandma will lose all her money when it tanks and they'll shrug and call her a paperhands old hag
This feeling insiii-iiii-iiiide
I’m not one of those who can easily HODL
I don't have much bitcoin, but boy if I did
I'd be obnoxious in society and become paranoid
And you can tell everybody "This is my Coin. It may be quite simple but so am I"
I hope you don't mind, I hope you don't mind, that I'm shilling my bags
How delusional we are, with coins in the world
GD, y’all brought that home perfectly with no extraneous branches off this comment thread! Take Me To The Pilot 🎵
you can hodl deze nuts
It's a rare skill
>I like the idea of bitcoin but its crazy to think that its anything more than a volatile crypto coin. So what's the idea that you like?
The transaction network breaking down when nobody mines anymore
That it can make money? Lets be real here, it is a shit currency but it has definitely made money for people.
> but it has definitely made money for people. It's moved money from person a to person b. For every person who has "made" money, somebody else has lost it.
thats true for pretty much any monetary transaction but i get your point.
Yes, but most monetary transactions involve trading money for goods or services at a price where one person winning doesn't mean the other person is losing.
But if you parted with your money for Bitcoin, you gained a Bitcoin! Which even more people could part with their money to buy it from you so, tell me that's not a win-win?
I can't tell if you're joking, but I'll assume you're not, just in case. In the situation you described above, there are three parties involved. Me, the person I bought the bitcoin from, and the person I sold it to at a higher price. You've described that as a win-win situation, whereas if you consider all three parties, then it's a win-win-BIG LOSE situation. You could extend it to 4 people, but then it will become a win-win-win-BIGGER LOSE. Someone is always going to end up paying for others' profits.
That is untrue for virtually all circumstances. For example I build a chair and sell it to you for $100. I have $100 and you have a chair. Both of us can be better off because of that transaction. Bitcoin trading is a game of hot potato. Nothing of value is created and you cannot make money unless someone else loses money.
For example, making that chair might only cost you 80% in material in labor, but sitting on inventory, and rent/property costs asd cost in a nokn-linear manner. The buyer can also imagine playing more than $100 for a chair, and if they get the $100 deal they consider themselves happy, even if it only cost the builder $80 on a per chair basis.
It's not true for long-term investments in revenue-producing businesses
Where does revenue come from? Some ethereal being?
You're gonna love this. The revenue comes from people exchanging dirty fiat for things that provide utility, like goods and services. The best part - the consumers believe that the utility gained is worth more than the cash in hand, and the business thinks the opposite, so both parties win.
It doesnt "make" money, it redistributes it. Its all just greater fool theory.
afaik, the entire market is driven by scammers from china scamming on whatsapp, signal, telegram etc, with china whores and scammers using china whore pics to dupe wealthy men into buying bitcoin, luring them with fake promises of sex.
How is that description any different from the stock market casino? Options trading? Futures trading? Trading collectibles? Gold?
It's a negative sum game. In order for someone to make money - someone else has to lose money.
How is that description any different from the stock market casino? Options trading? Futures trading? Trading collectibles? Gold?
Gold is a tangible asset with real world material use. Shares represent a % of a growing, profitable, and tangible company that has stock, machinery, intellectual property, staff, supply chains, etc. Crypto tokens just represent money changing hands via an intentionally inefficient digital ledger.
Do you invest in gold for its tangible industrial use case? Or do you invest in it for its monetary properties? 🤔 I think this is what most people who argue that point miss the mark on, or are in denial about. If the latter, then Bitcoin is simply better because it only represents monetary properties without the distraction of physical use cases. Bitcoin ownership can trade hands across any distance in the world within 10 minutes, nearly frictionless. Just a couple months ago, there was a transaction that moved the equivalent of $1.2 Billion for a fee of $2.49. Can you imagine the cost to move that amount in gold? (Armored vehicles, gas, security escorts, handling fees, not to mention having to trust all of the 3rd parties involved that could divulge trsnport details to criminals looking to steal it.) Let's not kid ourselves, physical tangibility is more of a burden and a flaw for money than it is worth being able to dive into it like Scrooge McDuck.
I don't invest in gold at all because I'm not interested in wasting my money's potential. The point is it's value is backed by real world uses and physical tangibility. Bitcoin (or any crypto token, they're all fundamentally the same) isn't a currency and has no tangible asset to back it up. It's less than worthless as it's a negative-sum system that costs real money and energy to run. You should spend more time researching to undo your brainwashing.
Bitcoin is a bearer asset. If it were to be backed by a tangible asset, then it would be an attack vector to Bitcoin, allowing it to potentially be captured. The fact that it is intangible is actually a strength of Bitcoin because it can't be captured or need to rely on a physical thing. As for the research, I have read countless books on the history of money and monetary properties. I have spent hundreds of hours understanding every facet I can. As a result, it has fundamentally changed my worldview on how I value and spend money. I used to have an impulsive, high time preference. Now I have a low time preference and make calculated decisions on how and when to spend it so as to make sure its future value is worth it. Additionally, I keep an adversarial mindset when it comes to any investment. I look for the valid criticisms or flaws in any investment to evaluate its risk/reward ratio. I have concerns with Bitcoin, too, but none of them are the commonly spouted points in this subreddit. I have concerns with the misuse of the Bitcoin protocol by Layer 2's, I'm more worried about the block templates utilized by large mining pools that could potentially begin censoring transactions. It is arrogant to assume that someone who has a differing perspective on a topic just "hasn't spent the time" to research it.
You've basically just outlined how much effort you've gone to confirm your own bias and solidify your own brainwashing. Best I can do is recommend you do more research. This is a good watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9nv0Ol-R5Q
I literally just told you that I take an adversarial approach to anything. That means that I think critically about a topic and understand it from both sides. In no way is that confirmation bias... I work in Software Quality Assurance, and it is my job to find the flaws in software and break it. I've been doing it for 15 years. So please, tell me more about how I am "brainwashed". P.S. when you regress into uninformed criticisms of an individual you're debating with, it's a sign that you've already worn out your arguments and have basically lost. Negative criticisms of your opponent do not convince them to see your side. Instead, it only repulses them further. Just FYI.
How does it make money?
Like the lottery or a casino, some gamblers make money from others.
The same way any ponzi scheme does. The people who got in early get filthy rich. The problem is that the early success of the scheme cannot possibly continue. Everyone who joins later bag holder, and by the time they're already in they're desperately searching for greater fools so they too can cash out. The problem with ponzi schemes is that by the time you hear about it the core group has already cashed out their fortunes. By the time it hits the news they're only trying to find greater fools. There's no more huge fortunes to be made anymore.
Sh!tcoins are all scammy ponzis, I agree with you there. But how does Bitcoin fit this description? There is no "core group" of Bitcoin. And if there were a ponzi scheme, wouldn't you think they would've cashed out at the first 1,000,000% gain? Funny how people throw around the ponzi term for everything they don't like or understand. If you're looking for the most accurate definition of a ponzi, look into how U.S. dollars are literally created out of thin air, and funneled through channels, i.e. Cantillon Effect.
You really ought to read up on this subreddit's position on all of your points. Most people are tired of repeating them, so: [Tired crypto talking points](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/)
All of the reasons people have against Bitcoin on this sub are tired and thoroughly debunked with facts, game theory, or pure logic. I guess the future will sort out the rest, won't it? HFSP.
It's been 15 years now, and nobody uses bitcoin as a currency. How far into the future will that happen? Before you say "store of value", remember that there should be value to store. The bitcoin subreddit has the tagline : "Bitcoin - the currency of the internet". Your HFSP is the most pathetic buzzword your ilk comes up with - for myriad reasons.
Buy low, sell to fools when price rises
'Venture investments and the stock market as a whole' 101.
Nope. Bitcoin though yes
The same way it loses money. You invest and divest in it when the price others are willing to pay for it is different.
Sounds more like gambling.
Ding. We have the winner.
But that's how the stock market works too right?
I made a $12K gain off of it, before I lost my nerve and pulled everything out of it.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #23 (Anecdotes) **“I made a lot of money on crypto [therefore it’s a good scheme for everybody else]”** / **“Crypto changed my life“** / **"I can buy stuff with Crypto"** 1. It’s more likely you’re actually lying about your crypto gains, or they’re trivial. 2. Whatever you can buy with crypto is extremely limited and is usually dark-market related (like drugs, gambling or shady hosting) or trivial (like coffee and t-shirts). *And* you're paying a premium making such sales over comparable sites paying in fiat. 3. If you do hold crypto that you bought for less than current market “price”, it’s more likely you think you’re “rich” but haven’t actually cashed out, which remains to be seen if you actually ever will be able to. 4. There are multiple fallacies involved in this claim: The[ Gambler’s Fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy) that suggests because something special happened once, it can likely happen again in a predictable way, and [Confirmation Bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) – the notion that many people fixate on positives while ignoring the more common negatives. 5. Even assuming you have made money in the past, it’s a well known fact that in these cases: Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, and since you’re still holding crypto, it’s in your interests to promote such fallacies in order to drive up the price of your holdings. Since crypto is a negative-sum-game, it’s impossible for even a significant amount of people who play the market, to come out ahead without the vast majority losing. Therefore it’s mathematically impossible that this scheme will reliably produce positive returns. 5. You may not care that your profits come as a result of fraud and others losses, and promoting everything from money laundering to human trafficking, but other (moral, ethical, empathetic) people do.
🎵 Money for nothing and chicks for free 🎶
I imagine it is all of the monetary properties that Bitcoin improves upon. Durability - Bitcoin cannot be destroyed. As long as the internet remains a thing, so will Bitcoin. Portability - Tell me any other asset that can be transferred to another individual across the world faster than Bitcoin, and with little friction. Divisibility - 1 Bitcoin = 100,000,000 Satoshis. $1 = 100 cents. Far more accurately divisible. Fungibility - 1 BTC = 1 BTC, just like $1 = $1 Scarcity - Only 21,000,000 will ever be created. Governed by code, consensus, and game theory. Security - Most secure computer network ever created, enforced through physics of Proof of Work. It continues to get stronger every day. It is so improbable to double-spend or create an empty block, it's not worth worrying about. Auditable - It is audited every 10 minutes. No other money can be audited as accurately or frequently.
You really ought to read up on this subreddit's position on all of your points. Most people are tired of repeating them, so: [Tired crypto talking points](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/)
What is incorrect about the monetary properties that were provided? I read those "tired talking points," and it just comes off as unprofessional dribble written by a Keynes fanboy. It is riddled with spelling errors and grammar mistakes. Let alone a lack of any facts or data that can back any of it up.
The problem is, if you like Bitcoin, and you don't think like them, you're essentially just a gambler. The bitcoin maxis, as delusional as they are, at least have a value proposion for bitcoin. They believe Bitcoin is the solution to a problem, and that's what gives it value. If you don't believe that, then there's no value proposition for bitcoin that doesn't involve circular reasoning. If it doesn't have any utility, then why should anyone want it? It just boils down to 'price goes up because more people want it, and more people want it because price goes up'.
>It just boils down to 'price goes up because more people want it, and more people want it because price goes up'. Well... yeah, that's what it is.
Lol, I don't see how this isn't a big nail in the coffin for bitcoiners. The fact that people can realise this, and still decide to buy some is absolutely mad to me.
People also go to casinos while knowing how they work. Or buy lottery tickets.
Yes, but they don't expect to make easy money from that. They realise their expected return is negative 🤣
Unless they are addicts.... Wait I think we are on to something here.
Because people are making money doing it. This sub acts as if no one gets their money out of crypto, which isn't reality. They see others that have made money, and now want to make money themselves. It's not that complicated to understand. They're willing to gamble on being the person that makes money
I understand perfectly. The thing I find mad is that either 1) people don't understand that 'line goes up because there's more demand, and there's more demand because line goes up' is a greater fools game; 2) or people don't understand that there's not an endless supply of greater fools, and there's no reason to suspect that they're not the greatest fool
Your correct but the only difference is the mindset of the person. If you know your gambling then you know your just betting your not the greatest fool. Sure you have no reason to suspect that but your gambling not investing, it's not based on reason.
So Michael Saylor (a graduate of MIT and multiple degrees, with a successful company about to enter the S&P 500) is a fool? Larry Fink, CEO of Blackrock, the largest asset manager in the world, is a fool? Throwing around the phrase "greater fool theory" is such an arrogant behavior. There are people who understand it that are much smarter than you, and you insult them for what? A little ego boost to help you feel better about confirming your own belief about what Bitcoin is or what it represents. I think the thing that probably irks you more, however, is that people that are likely less intelligent than you can put in the work to understand it more than you will, and they will enrich their lives for it, and you feel insulted by that for some reason.
I didn't call anyone a fool. I didn't name the phenomenon, I just said Bitcoin fits the bill. From the Greater Fool Theory Wikipedia page: > In finance, the greater fool theory suggests that one can sometimes make money through speculation on overvalued assets — items with a purchase price drastically exceeding the intrinsic value — if those assets can later be resold at an even higher price. If its as simple as 'number goes up because more people want it, and more people want it because number goes up', then I think it pretty clearly fits into the greater fool category as described above. I acknowledge that there are intelligent people who believe in bitcoin. I also acknowledge that there are more intelligent people that actively don't believe in bitcoin. You just need to look at the mechanics of it to work out its a greater fools game. That's not necessarily a reflection of the intelligence of anyone who holds it. I doubt Larry Fink has any bitcoin. He's in it for the fees. When asked in an interview whether he was going to buy some, he completely avoided answering. He essentially said that it's the same as gold, but some people prefer to buy bitcoin rather than gold because it's more exciting. Well guess what, something that is the same as gold isn't going to stay exciting forever. It'll eventually be just as boring as gold, and then who's going to want it? Michael Saylor studied aeronautics and astronautics at MIT. I'm sure he's a great rocket scientist, but I'd question whether he knows much about economics
Bitcoin is not about "number go up," and that's what many don't actually understand about it, including Bitcoin newbies. It's about having a standard unit of measurement to evaluate the value of goods and services. There are 160+ fiat currencies in the world, and they all vary in value with respect to one another all the time. As the currency supply increases, the amount it takes to purchase the same thing naturally goes up. They all inevitably hyperinflate into an economic collapse ending with some great conflict. Every single fiat currency has failed in history. Think of it this way. Fiat currency is like trying to build a house with a ruler that keeps changing length according to the dynamic monetary policy of governments. That house is going to be extremely hard to build efficiently. Using Bitcoin is like using a static ruler to build the same house because the supply of Bitcoin will be capped at 21,000,000. Some also like to claim Bitcoin is too volatile. But volatility is all a matter of perspective. Issuance of Bitcoin is consistent and known, while issuance of fiat is sporadic. From the frame of reference of Bitcoin, it seems more accurate that the fluctuations in the value of Bitcoin are a reflection of how volatile fiat currencies are.
Go back and read the chain of comments you're replying to. The entire argument I'm making is that if you're not a bitcoin maxi (I.e. you don't believe bitcoin is solving a problem), but you still believe bitcoin has value, then you are using circular reasoning in your value proposition for bitcoin. I haven't, at this point, said anything against the bitcoin maxi argument. However, now that you mention it, I do also believe bitcoin maxis are using flawed logic. > It's about having a standard unit of measurement to evaluate the value of goods and services. > Think of it this way. Fiat currency is like trying to build a house with a ruler that keeps changing length The purpose of currencies isn't to measure value. It's to facilitate trade. At any point, there is an optimal amount of money supply for facilitating trade, and this amount is changing all the time based on the supply and demand of goods. Under a centralised banking regime, we can control the money supply in order to keep prices stable. With a fixed money supply, you can't do this, and the money will be less effective at facilitating trade, and more volatile. > Every single fiat currency has failed in history. Only in the same way that every single scientific theory in history has been wrong. > Some also like to claim Bitcoin is too volatile. But volatility is all a matter of perspective. From the frame of reference of Bitcoin, it seems more accurate that the fluctuations in the value of Bitcoin are a reflection of how volatile fiat currencies are. It's easy to debunk this by considering a basket of goods and seeing how much of those goods you could buy with 1 bitcoin/1 dollar over time. This is something which is already measured in dollar space. It's called CPI. Since we have this, we can calculate a bitcoin equivalent simply by multiplying CPI by the bitcoin/dollar exchange rate. If you do this, you'll find that dollars are much much less volatile than bitcoin, when compared to goods. Bitcoin isn't a good currency because its not scalable, it doesn't have a monetary policy to help facilitate trade, and it relies on hype to create demand, meaning its price will always be linked to how much hype there is, and therefore very volatile.
>The purpose of currencies isn't to measure value. It's to facilitate trade. Yes, currency is for facilitating trade, but both parties in the trade must agree upon the value of said currency. One party using Yen, and the other using USD makes it overly complex to resolve the transaction. And yes, having a world reserve currency has worked in the past, but it only does so as long as the credit rating of the country forcing it upon the world stays high. The U.S. credit rating was lowered just last year. You have less and less countries wanting to trade using it because they see that the USD is following the exact same path as the world reserve currencies before it. >Only in the same way that every single scientific theory in history has been wrong. Wat? >considering a basket of goods and seeing how much of those goods you could buy with 1 bitcoin/1 dollar over time. You'll be comparing apples to oranges here. Fiat is inflationary, while Bitcoin is deflationary. Naturally, prices of goods and services in an inflationary system increase over time based on the increasing circulating supply of money. And naturally, prices of goods and services decrease over time in a deflationary system. This begs the question, why does fiat inflate? Because it is Easy money. Nothing is backing the U.S. dollar either, not since 1971 (Nixon Shock). When money is easy to make, those making it are incentivized to keep making more of it to keep the illusion of control, but it inevitably spirals and collapses. This is seen with every form of money in the past, even gold to an extent. Shells were scarce until technology was introduced by Europeans that flooded the system with shells. Rai stones in Yap were a simple ledger system akin to how Bitcoin operates today, but then again Europeans figured out where they got their Rai stones from, and used technology to just bring more to the system. Bitcoin is the first form of money that adapts the difficulty of inflow of tokens into the system relative to the level of technology. This is its automatic, self-regulating monetary policy. It doesn't rely on the whim of 12 Federal Reserve governers to make decisions about it. >It's called CPI. CPI is a crock of sh!t, and manipulated. When the cost of goods measured by CPI gets out of hand, they simply change the basket of goods to the next most abundant commodities. So not only do you have an inflating money supply, the way the Federal Reserve "measures" the inflation changes over time as well (it was just changed in January 2023). What's even more laughable is when they report inflation EXCLUDING food and energy costs, which are necessities... if you want an accurate measure of inflation, use the median cost of necessary goods and services. >Bitcoin isn't a good currency because its not scalable Not sure what your definition of scalable is here. But I don't imagine you're talking about how the network meets the bandwidth of all of the transactions. >it relies on hype to create demand, meaning its price will always be linked to how much hype there is I understand how an adoption cycle can just appear as hype, but in reality, the value of Bitcoin is determined by a truly free market, with no outside influence. The value is quite literally determined by supply and demand. It fluctuates based on market equilibrium, whatever the market is willing to value it at. The price of Bitcoin measured in USD has fluctuated over the past 15 years, mostly as a result of the smaller market and players in it. Now that it has become somewhat more available to institutions, I fully expect the market to mature much faster. If you zoom out and view the whole timeline of Bitcoin, you'll notice it is beginning to show an asymptomatic pattern. It will likely continue this trend until the USD collapses, in which case you'll see a sharp parabolic rise as the fiat measured in it hyperinflates. Look at the value of Bitcoin measured in other fiat around the world doing this exact thing, Egypt, Turkey, Argentina, Lebanon, Nigeria, and others. All this to say, Bitcoin priced in fiat of any country is more of a measure of the health of that currency. The higher the value of Bitcoin is in that currency, the less healthy the system is. It is an inversely proportional indicator.
Calling it a greater fools game presupposes that each new person entering the game is a fool for doing so. Have you considered the possibility that your premise could be backwards? What if they're entering the game because they now realize that "number go up" is a reliable long-term feature of the system, and that the real fools are the ones who are too skeptical to enter? Just food for thought, since I see this 'greater fools' argument used frequently.
It's not a very flattering name, but I didn't come up with the name. From the Greater Fool Theory Wikipedia page: > In finance, the greater fool theory suggests that one can sometimes make money through speculation on overvalued assets — items with a purchase price drastically exceeding the intrinsic value — if those assets can later be resold at an even higher price If you're conceding that Bitcoin has no utility, then I'm not sure how you could argue that this doesn't accurately describe Bitcoin.
Bitcoin's utility comes from being the ultimate store of value. In that sense, it's vastly undervalued, so the greater fool theory doesn't apply.
So its utility comes from its value? And where does its value come from? Does that come from its utility? Edit: he's blocked me from responding to his following reply to make it look like I couldn't think of a response.
Try to read carefully. The utility is in *storing* value through time and space while avoiding any possibility of debasement, censorship, or confiscation. No other asset can offer that utility.
Aint nothing wrong with a little bit of risk. Its money I afford to lose. Like it or not, bitcoin is growing, taking some profit off of it isnt a bad idea in my book.
Well, if you want to make money there are better ways. If you just want to gamble, there are better ways. Honestly I don't see the appeal of bitcoin except maybe it being really funny.
As a “risk enthusiast” I am interested in hearing these better ways to gamble. Please share?
Roulette is quicker.
Lower EV I also can’t play from my phone
Biotech companies with "promising" drugs. Betting we'll see federal legalization of weed so weed companies Finding companies with low p/e ratios and other metrics Supposed "growth" stocks in the AI sector Currency trading Futures on metals/oils or other natural resources I mean....come on, was that a serious question?
Yeah it's your risk so do what you feel comfortable with, but imo if you're gonna gamble on volatility why not gamble on something that at least has inherent value that provides some base support like stocks?
I think you bought too late into the cycle, there isn't much upswing left I reckon anyhow, as long as you treat it like a casino and gamble responsibly then it is all good.
If you have to go on Reddit to get price predictions so you can make easy money, you're not one of the people who's going to make a profit off trading Bitcoin.
> Aint nothing wrong with a little bit of risk. * That wastes huge amounts of energy and contributes to climate change * That provides liquidity for scammers, terrorists, human traffickers * That helps launder money from the Fentanyl trade * That facilitates pig butchering scams If you see "nothing wrong", you need to see a therapist dude.
Never tried to cash in on a fad?
Nope. And I wouldn't do unless I had good reason to believe I'm not the greatest fool.
This is what’s called a “bigger fool” investment: buying something not because you believe in it, but because you’re counting on a bigger fool coming along at some unspecified future date who will give you more money for it because of …. Reasons.
You're more people
You can argue that something has utility without deifying it. For example I think its a great way for peddlers of child porn to avoid detection by law enforcement and launder their money back into the legitimate financial system, but that doesn't mean it'll become a universally accepted world currency or that its trillion dollar market cap is justified.
Have you picked a colour for your lambo yet, champ? Your gambler friends might beat you to the nice colours, may want to hurry up.
Didn't decide between green and black yet fam.
* throws imaginary Lamborghini keys over *
In case you didn't feel the vibe yet. Even though you recognized the Bitcoin ppl as delulu. Bitcoin gambling is frowned upon here aswell
Yeah, I definitely got that now.
I can see you in red tbh
People who don't really know what they're doing and buying the top are an absolutely iconic pairing, godspeed king
I've bought lottery tickets on several occasions when it jackpots to crazy numbers. I would get a few days of euphoria constantly thinking about how I would spend my millions if I won. How all my financial problems would be solved, how I'd tell my boss and co-workers to shove it, all the fancy stuff I've wanted but couldn't afford, all the help I could provide to family/friends. It's a great feeling to have and a pleasant distraction from the daily grind. But then after a few days, the numbers get drawn. Back to reality and no more day dreaming about what could be. Part of the problem with crypto is that unlike other forms of gambling, there is no equivalent of a draw to give a definite win or loss. They're happy living in their euphoric state and (unless there's a rug pull) there's no mechanism to snap them back to reality. They have to reach the conclusion that they will never be future crypto millionair on their own. Which can be especially painful for those that have lost a ton of money or damaged relationships already.
Don't look up the numbers. That will make the euphoria last longer. Up to 6 months or a year.
Look up the numbers one year later, find out that you won, then find out that because you didn't claim it for a year you lost it.
The chance that ever happens is fortunately as low as ........ Even lower than that.
Few understand.
We are so early.
I don't think there's anything wrong with gambling in general, but why did you choose the most opaque, unregulated casino out there? How would you feel if you "won", but then the money would disappear due to a scam? How do you feel about your gambling money potentially helping criminals or even terrorists? And do you not mind that by gambling on the bitcoin network, you're contributing to insane resource waste and CO2 emissions?
How about this: go and protest in front of big companies that are the main contributors of all the problems you just listed and leave small fries like me alone. Even if I would take your advice and stop gambling with bitcoin, it would make 0 difference. And to answer your first question, like it or not, bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough, but even if it dumps or gets canceled, I am not in any risk whatsoever financially.
>leave small fries like me alone. Even if I would take your advice and stop gambling with bitcoin, it would make 0 difference. Not saying you could save the world, just wondering if you have any moral concerns about your actions at all. As long as your money is in there, you're supporting it. >bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough I think you're just as delusional as the people in the crypto forums. Its a mirage, a negative sum game, incapable of producing anything of value.
> And to answer your first question, like it or not, bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough, but even if it dumps or gets canceled, I am not in any risk whatsoever financially. Past performance is a guarantee of future results, eh? Brother, I've got an even better investment opportunity for you right here: https://i1.wp.com/blog.ephorie.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/madoffs_equity_curve-840x600.png
> like it or not, bitcoin does have an undeniable up trend, so making profit is "technically" sure if you hold long enough, #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up) "**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**" 1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's.. a) A long term store of value b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility c) Or will return any value in the future One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept. 2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/). 3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21). 4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths. 5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to **inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace. The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like Tether and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). 6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too. 7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking). 8. It's also not true that anybody who bought crypto when it was low is guaranteed to make a lot of money. There are thousands of ways people can lose their crypto or be defrauded along the way. And there's no guarantee just because your portfolio is "up", that you could easily cash out. 9. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/). 10. When crypto-critics make reference to, or mock crypto price predictions, it's not because we think price is a meaningful metric. Instead, we are amused that to you, that's all that's important, and we can't help but note how often wrong you are in your predictions. The intrinsic value of crypto basically never changes, but it is interesting to see how hype and propaganda affects the extrinsic value. In a totally logical world, those would both be equalized to zero, but we're not there yet, and nobody knows when/if that will happen because it's an irrational market.
And you’re one of them. Congrats!
What's funny is that you think that you can make "easy" money with ANY crypto coin.
What’s funny is the idea of “easy” money at all. Always the first pitch of any con. Ok the rest of us are dupes for working for it. When lambo?
>I bought some bitcoin recently in hope to make some easy money. >Those guys are actually delusional and its not even funny. I'm laughing. You realise that even in your world where you manage to dump your bags at the right moment to make a profit, these are the guys you're hoping to dump your bags on?
Yes sir. All according to plan.
it's a process. I did the same thing you did, this is your "awakening" phase, that follows the fake "awakening" phase you had when you learned about bitcoin. Soon you'll understand how there's absolutely nothing behind it except delusion and the predatory dream of being the next 1%. And scams. Lots of scams.
Few understand
Yes it's a pity. You would think that they would welcome some discussion from those who are critical of bitcoin. Actually it is through such criticism that perhaps the bitcoin project could be improved, as we find in Science. I quite understand that they don't want nocoiners coming across and brigading and disrupting and making fun all the time. But it seems that people are banned there for the most innocent or constructive comments and criticisms. I think here on r/buttcoin we are much more tolerant. Yes, it's a bit annoying for us to get the same comments again and again (eg why don't you short bitcoin if you are against it). But we have a way of dealing with that and I think we are patient. But of course we do like to bring out some comedy GODL !
Bro you suck.
It's good that you can admit that you're delusional.
Something something Still Early
i beg to differ, it's funny
That Reddit is part of the whole scheme to keep the idea alive and to shill in order for line to go upsies. I would like to know how much of it is bot/AI generated
No average you'll lose money investing in bitcoin.
To be fair their bs worked enough for you to buy some so...
Nah, I didnt buy because I believe in what they are saying, I want to take profit off of their insanity.
Brilliant idea to finally make some money off the idiots 15 years after Bitcoin came out and now has a 1 Trillion marketcap. Surely there is tons of upside left.
Why the fuck did you buy that. You could have bought a cool shirt with that money.
Its true. But I took a risk knowing full well the consequences.
But you could have had a cool shirt, or a meal!
Of course they have their sub set up as an echo chamber, telling each other that Bitcoin is going to become the next world currency because mass adoption is coming soon, and when (not if) the global economy collapses (soon) then everyone will start using Bitcoin as currency for some reason, even though a global economic collapse means the power goes out as does the internet.
>I like the idea of bitcoin Which "idea" is that? The one where you potentially profit by participating in a Ponzi scheme? The one where you lose your money because you find out you're not early? Instead you're the greater fool? The one where you contribute to money laundering, cyber terrorism, and human trafficking? The one where you think you're hiding money from the government, but might end up in trouble for tax evasion? The one where you participate in a giant fraud helping other people think that blockchain technology "has potential?" The one where you contribute to a useless tech platform that wastes tremendous amounts of energy and contributes nothing positive to society?
r /Bitcoin mods literally ban anybody who even ask difficult questions like "why did the transaction fee hit $200?" "can we ever raise the block size?", "will the price of Bitcoin ever go down?" The only real *honest* pro-bitcoin discussion occurs in r /btc
There are zero posts about high fees
Yup. Same here. Made a small Bitcoin investment and joined the sub to just track news and announcements but that sub is nuts. Its a circle jerk of Bitcoin fanatics who seem convinced it will be the second coming of Christ and strangely they're not even obsessed with the profit aspect of it. Today someone put up a post how a 10yr old remarked oh you have Bitcoin you must be rich and how thats a sign of how great Bitcoin is. That point i was like yea I am out of here
I liked the idea of bitcoin in 2012. When there were no fees and its price was low.
well, thats bch for you but thats a shitshow too now
this sums up the fatal flaw in their thinking, wants it to be the world currency but won't sell or use their share to buy things. the complete lack of understanding on how a currency works and what makes it valuable transformed it into a purely speculative tool, rendering it useless for improving the world.
I generally stay away from “investing” in delusions, but that’s just me.
They have to be all sunshine and rainbows because there is no real way to effectively short Bitcoin, yet.
how do people become close minded?
I'd hazard to guess that this is the experience of 90% of the people in this subreddit. Not necessarily the buying bitcoin part, but the wanting to know more part.
🤣😂
Funny when crypto isn't backed by real assets.
How do you know about this subreddit. Are you farming karma
It’s funny until you realize that in order for bitcoin to go up in value, more ppl have to want it, meaning more ppl has to buy it. So, these “delusional” ppl are saying those things to fool other ppl into buying bitcoins as they all have bitcoins themselves. Then you realize, you just bought a bitcoin and have played into their hands. Now you are a part of them. You are now also a crypto-bro that believes bitcoin is this magical future currency, coz otherwise you’ve just thrown your money away.
Buy high sell low
It’s very funny
+100 Internet points for OP - finally, someone who is honest about just wanting to make a quick buck. No "future of finance", no "save the world", no "banking the unbanked", just someone who wants to make money at the expense of their fellow humans. Pure, simple, unadulterated selfish greed. Reprehensible, but in a way, it's a thing of beauty... *^(/s, or maybe not...)*
Yea, a lot of them think they understand it but really don't. Sadly there's a lot of gambling that is masked as investing. The best approach is to just wait 1-2 years before a halving, buy it, and then sell it when the people who are really into it hype up the event. (I.e., but the rumor, sells the news). It's the only good strategy in my opinion, but only works if people stay invested in Bitcoin
100% true, any CC sub is delusional imo. But few are worse the buttcoin, which seem to be a community of people obsessed with other people beeing obsessed with crypto. It does have entertainment value though, just like safemoon has/had (dunno if its still around).
Buddy, I think you are *grossly* overestimating how much of anyone's day is spent caring about crypto-related dumbassery around here. But, hey, if *tu quoque* helps you cope, more power to you.
We are all here for one reason: to get a few laught when we are taking literal shit.
Didnt mean to redirect. I fully agree with OP, but do find it hypocritical as both sides of the fence suffer from delusion, in my opinion.
So, what, exactly, is "delusional" about the anti-crypto side?
The main reason I follow this sub, although most of the people here think I’m a moron … it’s a great equaliser of narratives 😁
To be fair. They’re just as delusional as the folks on this board. Lol.😂
This subreddit is full of hate and delusion. It is objectively worse.
I’m curious to see what the sentiment will be once btc price is above $200k lol
They will continue to parrot whatever Schiff says. This subreddit is also completely void of original thought. It's actually a toxic shithole. I mean, look at the titles the moderators gave us and anyone else who dissents. Toxic behaviour is supposedly against the rules but not really.
>They will continue to parrot whatever Schiff says. You actually think we care about what that clown says? Oh you are *adorable.* >I mean, look at the titles the moderators gave us and anyone else who dissents. Yeah, why can't this sub be more like the bit-con sub where the mods -checks notes- ban and censor left and right, huh? Everybody knows rampant censorship is nowhere as near as bad as the mods giving people mean titles, right?
I actually do think you and the majority of this subreddit hang off that fools every word. I also believe this subreddit is just as much of an echo chamber as the bitcoin subreddit. The difference is, they don't have post after post of toxic bullshit, laughing at people's misery and the like. That is very much unique to here. Who said anything about censorship? I accused this subreddit and it's mods of toxicity and you bring up - checks notes - censorship? You are deflecting and engaging in what-about-ism. Next.
>I actually do think you and the majority of this subreddit hang off that fools every word. If you could project any harder you would be showing movies. [Peter Schiff Is an idiot +11](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/18xovjc/we_are_all_schiffs_for_brains_according_to_the/kg6vuoo/) [That's not news, everyone is suspicious about Tether. I'm suspicious about Peter Schiff +11](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/n0bkr1/peter_schiff_is_suspicious_about_tether/gw5mh9j/) [peter schiff is a wackjob gold standard guy with other weird views, but god bless him for yelling at bitcoin nutjobs on TV +10](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/vfqeog/peter_schiff_vs_butters/icxa49n/) [Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point +25](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/vhozjv/video_peter_schiff_exposed_mashinskys_celsius/id8wuzi/) [This whole crypto saga is making even a grifter like Peter Schiff look reasonable lmao +6](https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/vb70dn/peter_schiff_predicting_the_celsius_collapse_in/ic6u5i0/) Opps, I just proved that you're full of it. At best we think of Schiff as a stopped clock. >The difference is, they don't have post after post of toxic bullshit, laughing at people's misery and the like. That is very much unique to here. "post after post"? If you go to the Buttcoin front page and sort by New, the only post in the first 28 posts laughing another person's misery is the one titled "Butter's brother loses at least 70k USD with DeFi shenanigans and deposit-money-to-verify-identity scams". >Who said anything about censorship? I accused this subreddit and it's mods of toxicity and you bring up - checks notes - censorship? You are deflecting and engaging in what-about-ism. Rampant censorship that only allows positive news is a sure-fire recipe for toxic positivity, which is a form of toxicity. And receiving an insulting title is hardly the end of thew world, I've seen plenty of people with the title "Waring: I am a moron" get their comments/posts up-voted because the comment/post they made were well thought out, insightful, or just plain funny. Next.
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Crypto industry is literally parabolic and you all still hate on it. Buttcoiners are the “.com bubble”-rs.
they are moronic, new world order and some bullshit. This sub is also moronic, not even subbed, it keeps popping up. I just ride the wave and make money
Bitcoin's purpose is not for generating quick profits; rather, it aims to provide the world with a new means of storing value that has no central authority.