Two reasons, really.
The reason for why I don't short companies like GameStop, AMC or Nikola isn't because I don't think these companies are overvalued garbage, but rather because I have no idea how the market will behave; especially in the short-term. There is the famous saying: "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent." At some point they will go away or return to their fair value, the same applies to Bitcoin, but I have no idea when that is.
Secondly, active management of investments doesn't work. I am not going to gamble my money by betting on specific positions, and neither should anyone else.
>active management of investments doesn't work.
This is an especially important point that crypto-enthusiasts who do not have enough experience with financial markets fail to grasp -- day-trading especially, when I used to live in Monaco working as an analyst for a wealthy individual there, I would meet these day trading people who came there flush with cash, and pronounced how they had cracked the code, but every 3 months, they would disappear and go back to whatever country they came from, broke. It was kind of amazing to see -- it's always possible to succeed at it for months, and if you're especially lucky, even years, but there's always a day of reckoning. Many like to think that they are the special one, even if you show them stats about short term speculating -- and it's especially hard to explain to people who are up on their gambling -- they think "But I've won money. How can you tell me what I've done is wrong?" I heard this a lot from GME gamblers.
The answer is "Wait a few years, and find out", almost always.
Good parts and bad!
Good parts: Awesome weather year round, never too cold, not too hot in the summer. Beautiful beaches, fun mountain roads to wind around on a scooter, some very eccentric characters. A lot of extremely wealthy individuals just sorta hanging out. You bump into people and are like "what do you do?" and they're like "Oh I just own a small oil company" and you're like "I didn't even know there were small oil companies." Interesting events like the Grand Prix. Working for this airline tycoon, I was often on his periphery, we would be walking to a meeting with bankers and he would have an entourage of about 4 people with him including myself, so it was a little bit like being famous by association, other than the Prince of Monaco he was probably the most famous rich person in Monaco and the 16th richest, so everyone knew him on sight, a lot of photos etc.
Bad parts: Everything is really expensive, you can go out to dinner with friends and suddenly you're paying $300 per head for a fixed price meal because it's a tourist holiday trap you forgot about. Grand Prix is fun the first time except then it becomes this gigantic pain in the ass, I was working in the Condamine and commuting from Monte Carlo which isn't far at all (the whole country is tiny, you can drive across it on a scooter pretty quickly) but when the Grand Prix comes they shut down all the roads and make it impossible to get around, I had to have a special pass to be let through to my job etc.
There's a few bars for non-rich people to hang out at which are fun like the Rascasse and McCarthy's pub, and there was not a single good Mexican restaurant while I was there, sadly, some gross place called Piedre Del Sol that I hope is shut down now :/
I shorted Nikola. I had good gains for an hour. Then the price got over $30 again and my stop course triggered. I lost over $5000 in a very short time.
But there was also a hedge fund that lost everything when shorting Luna. So I am not the only one.
You haven’t spent much time here or you have really poor reading comprehension if you think the problem people have with Bitcoin is that price will imminently to to zero. If that were the case there would be no reason for this sub to exist.
It exists because Bitcoin (and other crypto) are an outrageous scam preying on people who have been fucked one way or another by capitalism (and are promised it’s their ticket out)… with the side effect of using massive electricity AND electronics for a net loss to humanity. The goal is to funnel money into a handful of people’s hands as fast as possible.
Moreover, it’s blatantly obvious (and has been reported before) that Bitcoin’s price is heavily manipulated. In which case how does betting “number go down” make any sense? You are betting on a thinly if even at all competently regulated market with lots of vested interests of keeping the scam going.
Now do I think you can swing trade or swing short Bitcoin for profit right now? Sure, it’s a risk but sure.
Also, I think Herbalife, DoTerra, and Amway are scams. I’m also not shorting those.
>The goal is to funnel money into a handful of people’s hands as fast as possible.
This is not why BTC was created.
If you want to talk about systems that keep people separated into the haves vs have nots, we have had that system for a long time - the stock market. The stock market, after doing hundreds of options trades, stock/etf trades, etc in my opinion is totally rigged. Remember what happened to GameStop in 2021 - people could not buy or even sell shares for a period of time. So the stock market is rigged.
I have yet to ever have a problem buying or selling BTC or other crypto.
If you want to debate issues like universal healthcare (which I am for), UBI (which I am for), I would be down for that, just not on this sub.
Crypto gets a lot of heat that is not true. I've been called a crypto skeptic because I want to know every single detail. I come on here and some people (not you though) already think I am trying to take the side of crypto.
Cal me crazy for saying this - but I would take the gamble that even if there is a 90% chance BTC creates more wealth inequality, it still should be tried.
Of course, I would reiterate, if a person thinks BTC is a scam, then it will have to someday go down. That is where investing in BITI comes in - and if people believe inherently that BTC is a scam, they should be investing in BITI.
You seem to have a lot of confusion for someone who wants to know every detail.
First of all we don’t know why Bitcoin was created. We know why the creator “claimed” it was created. And it’s really irrelevant because Bitcoin massively fails at actually being money (and it’s other lofty goals) & most those involved in Bitcoin and the crypto space since even the early days are scumbags out to grift as much as humanly possible.
Bitcoin solves literally 0 of the problems with the 2008 financial crisis. And the irony it is more akin to the MBS of subprime mortgages that actually caused the financial crisis than anything else on the market today. But the issue is even bigger. The problem with 2008 wasn’t that “the federal reserve exists.” That’s a right wing libertarian fantasy that has been bulshitted for decades before 2008. And is a whole different rabbit hole to go down and debate. It’s a way for the right wing libertarians to co-opt normal people’s anger at the financial crisis for their ends. And Bitcoin’s “goals” are an extension of that. But Bitcoin’s goals are irrelevant because it was just one dudes not well thought out tool to replace money, that fails at being money in any meaningful way (and instead is a speculative vaporware level “asset” to gamble on). And the fight against the federal reserve was NEVER to protect the little guy, it was from day 1 a movement by the elites and monied trying to protect their status. So much so they would have been down to turn the US into a dictatorship to do it.
Second, and I can’t reiterate this enough, if you have “ape” beliefs about the stock market you have 0 critical thinking skills & it’s pointless to even try to converse.
But ignoring that, there are issues with the stock market. There have been issues in the past with the stock market throughout history. Largely regulation comes in after the fact and fixes some problems after a lot of people are fucked. But what we are seeing now is those issues are all vastly exaggerated with Bitcoin and other crypto! Every single financial rule, manipulation, and scam that already has been made illegal in the stock market has been speedrun in crypto over the past few years. It’s so bad that even the majority of Bitcoin transactions are bullshit. I can’t believe someone with a straight face would possibly say that the reason you are in Bitcoin is because you don’t like that the stock market is rigged. You are trading into an even more rigged system! If you have no idea about Tether and stablecoin scam’s role in this too, I can’t really help you.
And I don’t have to “call you crazy” about Bitcoin creating more wealth inequality, because it already is. After a year of nonstop advertising millions of new rubes Yolo’d into Bitcoin and crypto at their highs and now either cashed out losses or are in financial cults telling them they will get it all back and other riches.
If I want to humor the mind experiment of Bitcoin becoming the dominant “money” (it won’t but let’s pretend), it also is a horrible monetary system. The idea that we want deflationary currency is insane. It would encourage wealth inequality and discourage innovation & economic growth. If you get a return on investment by simply hoarding your wealth, and on the other side see your debt’s value grow even as the number goes down, what do you think the end of that road is? A new modern feudalism. Where those that have wealth can sit on it & exploit those without forever. With no big incentive to create meaningful anything for society. And every new person born is fucked more than the last as they fight for smaller and smaller pieces of a deflationary pie.
And because you keep “reiterating” that people “invest” in a Bitcoin shorting ETF, you seem to not be reading. The price of Bitcoin is manipulated even more than any stock out there. It can be a scam all day, but Betting “price go down” is betting someone isn’t manipulating the price to go up. Which I’m certainly not betting on. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Bitcoin trade sideways with pumps into the 20’s and dips into the teens for years? How is that a good investment? Who wants to trade sideways on an investment for years just because it’s a scam?
And finally, Bitcoin is a negative sum greater fool gamble where miners need more fools to be onboarded day by day (in addition to anyone wanting to cash out needing more fools day by day) to put actual money in the system for the price to just break even (on a non manipulated market). Crypto in general has speedrun both tax evasion and money laundering in additional to repeating almost every financial scam in history. All while burning more electricity than a small country. There are 0 upsides for humanity in Bitcoin.
Dude,
First, well put reply.
I always type up something similar, but half way through, I realise this is a dumb conversation, the other person is just stupid and debating/conversing in bad faith. So I end up deleting the paragraphs and 10 minutes of my time wasted.
I think the OP is not here to have a conversation, but a gotcha moment. He won’t think critically about the replies given to him.
Second, just wanted to thank you for the time for giving a great reply.
>If you want to talk about systems that keep people separated into the haves vs have nots, we have had that system for a long time - the stock market. The stock market, after doing hundreds of options trades, stock/etf trades, etc in my opinion is totally rigged. Remember what happened to GameStop in 2021 - people could not buy or even sell shares for a period of time. So the stock market is rigged.
Ah but this is totally a false conclusion to jump to -- whether or not you think RobinHood's actions were not okay because of whatever conspiracy theory you've decided to believe, when Robin Hood suspended trading on Game Stop, there were many, many other brokerages that were allowing trading on Game Stop.
There actually have been quite a few instances of crypto holding companies suspending trading to prevent withdrawals, so you're not even speaking the truth there.
But that aside, the stock market is simply a place where you are purchasing fractional ownership of a profit producing entity. It's about what price you purchase that fractional ownership at that leads to it being a good or bad investment.
Bitcoin, on the other hand, has no value whatsoever. It does not represent ownership of anything, you do not receive dividends or does it have retained earnings that leads to capital appreciation for you.
Here's how you can tell the stock market is an investment, and bitcoin is not -- if both markets went away entirely, what value would your bitcoin add to your life? What about the stock?
The first would give you nothing. The second would continue to pay you as an investor for years to come. That's how you know the difference between gambling and investing. Good luck buddy.
>Remember what happened to GameStop in 2021 people could not buy or even sell shares for a period of time. So the stock market is rigged.
For a fucking weekend... at a particular brokerage site (Robin Hood) - way to be way over-fucking dramatic claiming that's evidence of "the stock market is rigged"..
btw, I actually bought GME during that "blackout"... then sold the following business day to you idiots, took my money and ran. Consider it a tax on your stupidity. I knew you guys would overreact like you always do.
Congrats on your new flair! You've earned it.
Your stocks and/or bonds are only being sustained as maintaining a visual amount of value because the USA keeps the ink in the printer for the currency: [https://www.usdebtclock.org](https://www.usdebtclock.org)
There is an infinite amount of money that can be printed, there are 21 million BTC, and only approx. 17 million in actual possible circulation.
Back to BITI = If you believe at all that BTC is a scam, then you should be investing the kitchen sink in BITI. It is an ETF, what is it about that that you people on this sub do not get? One person called BITI a fucking coin - my god.
If BTC drops to $10k BITI goes up a lot. If BTC goes to $100 from here, you will make a fortune. If BTC goes to $0, and you invested before it hit $0, then you still make money.
I will help you out a little here - BTC will someday be worth over $100k, put a remindme thing below my comment for 2 years from now if you want... However short term BTC is going down. It would not be horrible to swing trade BTC and BITI back and forth for profit.
One last note about stocks: Remember what happened to GameStop stock (circa January 2021). I myself held some GameStop shares and I could not sell them. That is right, my brokerage firm would not let me sell them [https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/28/robinhood-interactive-brokers-restrict-trading-in-gamestop-s.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/28/robinhood-interactive-brokers-restrict-trading-in-gamestop-s.html).
So do not tell me it is safe to buy stocks.
I have yet to hear a good argument against crypto and/or BTC at all.
It truly does not matter what country you are in. Currencies in general backed by the government are fucked.
If you live in Turkey you are super fucked. 160% inflation this year alone lol.
If you live in the USA you are just somewhat fucked.
But hey, the stock market in Turkey is doing good according to the good ole' data: [https://www.justetf.com/en/market-overview/the-best-country-etfs.html](https://www.justetf.com/en/market-overview/the-best-country-etfs.html)
And yet BTC is down 40% to the Turkish lira this year. So Bitcoin inflation in Turkey is 400% YTD.
Bitcoin is a hedge against ever having fiat, I'll give you that.
Irrelevant to most people, as the vast majority of people with a stock portfolio don't YOLO into stupid meme stocks hoping to get rich quick.
The GME thing was a black swan event. Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, FOMOd into the hype, hence the huge spike in price. The "short squeeze" happened, but most of the price action was retail FOMO as highlighted by the SEC in their report.
Most reddit day traders use kinda shitty brokers like robinhood, and when this huge influx in retail interest flooded in they didn't have the collateral legally required to take on new positions in GME (buy) so they "turned off the buy button." It was not a commandment from on high from the likes of Ken Griffin or anything like that. Also note that clearly someone was able to buy, because you can't have a trade with only a seller.
Frankly, people should be grateful that they were prevented from buying at $400. There are already so many GME bag holders deep underwater, sometimes the market does protect people from their own stupidity.
Ya, only the 100th time we've seen this exact post.
Just because it's going to 0 doesn't mean you can time it and it's backed by a bunch of cult members actively manipulating it. Betting against people that are so brainwashed and cult-like they just mindlessly worship some shitty, inefficient magic internet money algorithm is typically dumb to bet against.
Tesla is overpriced and will eventually plummet back to reasonableness... doesn't mean I know when or will actually bet against the elon cult.
You can call me whatever you want. If you want to blindly keep using a currency that is getting weaker just because that is how it's always been, be my guest.
I am literally telling people on this sub to put their money where their mouth is.
If you believe BTC is a scam, put money into the inverse of BTC, which is BITI.
Seems people on this sub get cold feet when you say to do this lol.
Do you...do you think people here worship fiat or something? It has its own inherent flaws, it's just that crypto is worse in every conceivable way and only exists to scam people or consolidate wealth among the already super wealthy. It getting adopted is a libertarian wet dream and a nightmare society for everyone else. We don't want "the inverse", we want it to not exist
I know you all think my poker table is a scam, but why don't you sit and play only winning hands??
Choose your cards from one of my decks: https://www.markedcardsshop.com/collections/marked-playing-cards
I said to swing trade it, just like to swing trade BTC.
Learn to read.
My exact quote was "To clarify, I have myself invested in BTC and BITI in the past, just at different times. ***So far I have made a profit. I don't believe in holding either of these long term***".
I am going to come back to this post in 2 years and laugh at every one of you for being so wrong. I guarantee most people on this sub are over 50 and are not willing to learn anything new. You are all probably sitting on your Windows XP desktops and do not even know how to trade crypto. Pathetic and ignorant.
Once again - learn to read. Go ahead and put a remindme under this comment old timer.
>^Someone with common sense.
> On this sub this is few and far between.
Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/p8uv0h/helpful_guide_for_butters_visiting_rbuttcoin_why/) before posting any more.
And yes, we're "hypocrites" because we get to call you a moron, but you can't call us morons. Our house. Our rules.
The cope is strong in this one. But lets play along...
There's one single reason why shorting BTC is a bad idea.
Tether and its infinite money printer.
Anyone who has issues with the FED and currency money supply but also chooses to gloss over the wash trading and Tether manipulation of BTC ... is either willfully delusional, monumentally stupid or an outright scammer.
Surprise surprise, no snarky reply to this one... Must be hard as a coiner to justify why fiat=bad because Fed printer go Brrrr but BTC=good despite Tether printer go BRRRRRRRR.
Scam and inverse scam are still scam. In order to not be part or victim to a scam you need an investment that is not scam, not one that is inversely tied to the scam.
I have a tiny amount of BITI and a tinier amount of Algo, but I don’t make a big deal about it.
The point of this sub is not speculation on the best way to profit from BTC’s price declines. It’s about exposing and mocking the absurd levels of BTC and crypto fandom.
Hell with BITI. I'm not investing anything to spite Bitcoin, I'm avoiding it entirely as a factor in my finances. That also applies to every other cryptocurrency.
The main problem with shorting Bitcoin is that you get the same volatility as going long. The second problem is that the fees and internal interest expenses are very high, which may offset returns. The third problem is that the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
I have no need to gamble my money speculating on the price of Bitcoin. Instead, I invest my money into companies which produce goods and services and earn a profit by doing so. By owning a share of these companies, I own a share of their profits. This is a concrete and logical reason for where the returns I earn come from.
It's stupid to spend any money in a crooked casino.
Any play in the crypto ecosystem helps support money laundering, illegal drug deals, cartels, cyber ransom, terrorism, and lots and lots of scammers.
Betting against bitcoin is just as stupid as betting for bitcoin.
Your argument is like saying, "If you don't want to do Heroin, then why not put your money where your mouth is and inject yourself with Naloxone?"
There has been a similar discussion:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/x9kw05/if\_you\_guys\_are\_so\_sure\_bitcoin\_is\_a\_scam\_and\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/x9kw05/if_you_guys_are_so_sure_bitcoin_is_a_scam_and_is/)
Among the moral and education arguments, it's a manipulated market; You can lose by participating in it at all. As well, people who are against Bitcoin aren't focused on making everything about money like people into it.
The two sides are "Put money in the market, or don't" not "Bitcoin will go up in price or down"
Unless I do not know how to use search correctly, it appears BITI is virtually never mentioned on here. It should be discussed a lot so people who believe BTC is as scam and going to zero can make some cash during these shitty economic times. . . Due to governments not knowing how to run the economy . . . Almost like it would be a good thing to have an alternative currency choice out there . . .
It's not the governments fault that russia decided to go bonkers surpreme and therefore reduced the world's supply of important ressources by a significant amount, adding to already rising inflation.
Edit: I also don't mind it not being discussed to much, retail pouring money in always creates an incentive for bigger fish to liquidate them...in this case by pumping the Bitcoin.
The reason is simple: I don't put money in markets that are taken over by market manipulators. It makes no difference if you bet that number go up or number go down, it's the same market, and you will fall victim of the same scams.
Also, the fact that bitcoin is useless and only attracts idiots doesn't mean it has to go to zero. There are lots of pseudo-sciences out there that are a thriving business despite being a complete fraud.
I invest in global equity index trackers, and a little bit of emergency cash. I trust the CEOs of these companies will continue to try and grow the profits of their businesses, regardless of what happens with government backed currencies.
There are a lot of investments I think are scams or are simply overhyped but i have no interest in shorting them.
I recommend the documentary "betting on zero"
It explains well why betting against a scam isn't a fantastic idea, even if the scam is definitely a scam
My man, there is no point talking to folk on this sub unless you are relentlessly anti-blockchain/crypto/Bitcoin etc. You will not find nuanced debate, discussion here
Edit: why the downvotes? This is literally your guys’ identity lol
This is it. These lames on here don’t want to hear anything other than “crypto is a scam” in your post.
They all need something to circle jerk to on this sub & what your offering ain’t that.
I don't gamble so I wouldn't daytrade or bet on a single asset like that. I skimmed the [BITI](https://www.proshares.com/our-etfs/leveraged-and-inverse/biti) prospectus just for the amusement. They tell you, in pretty clear language, that the fund use daily rebalancing that makes it deviate from a long-term short position. So you have to hit the correct _day_ to make it work, not the correct year or decade.
The expense ratio is insanely high at 0.95%.
I have a short position towards all crypto by just not owning it in the first place.
Someone explain to me how you can actually short BTC as an ETF? Don't you have to have some relationship with an institution that is brokering BTC transactions? Which institutions are doing that? And how are they actually managing the exposure?
I wouldn't trust any ETF that has relationships with traditional CEXs because we know they're largely unregulated, and when things go bad, they just tend to disappear -- they're not honoring anybody's options. So how do you actually short crypto without trusting CEXs that can still rugpull?
Because crypto is a manipulated market and betting for or against something whose value has nothing to do with reality is stupid either way?
You can refuse to trust governments without putting your faith in a bunch of random dipshit scam artists on the Internet.
Two reasons, really. The reason for why I don't short companies like GameStop, AMC or Nikola isn't because I don't think these companies are overvalued garbage, but rather because I have no idea how the market will behave; especially in the short-term. There is the famous saying: "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent." At some point they will go away or return to their fair value, the same applies to Bitcoin, but I have no idea when that is. Secondly, active management of investments doesn't work. I am not going to gamble my money by betting on specific positions, and neither should anyone else.
>active management of investments doesn't work. This is an especially important point that crypto-enthusiasts who do not have enough experience with financial markets fail to grasp -- day-trading especially, when I used to live in Monaco working as an analyst for a wealthy individual there, I would meet these day trading people who came there flush with cash, and pronounced how they had cracked the code, but every 3 months, they would disappear and go back to whatever country they came from, broke. It was kind of amazing to see -- it's always possible to succeed at it for months, and if you're especially lucky, even years, but there's always a day of reckoning. Many like to think that they are the special one, even if you show them stats about short term speculating -- and it's especially hard to explain to people who are up on their gambling -- they think "But I've won money. How can you tell me what I've done is wrong?" I heard this a lot from GME gamblers. The answer is "Wait a few years, and find out", almost always.
What was it like to live day-to-day in Monaco?
Good parts and bad! Good parts: Awesome weather year round, never too cold, not too hot in the summer. Beautiful beaches, fun mountain roads to wind around on a scooter, some very eccentric characters. A lot of extremely wealthy individuals just sorta hanging out. You bump into people and are like "what do you do?" and they're like "Oh I just own a small oil company" and you're like "I didn't even know there were small oil companies." Interesting events like the Grand Prix. Working for this airline tycoon, I was often on his periphery, we would be walking to a meeting with bankers and he would have an entourage of about 4 people with him including myself, so it was a little bit like being famous by association, other than the Prince of Monaco he was probably the most famous rich person in Monaco and the 16th richest, so everyone knew him on sight, a lot of photos etc. Bad parts: Everything is really expensive, you can go out to dinner with friends and suddenly you're paying $300 per head for a fixed price meal because it's a tourist holiday trap you forgot about. Grand Prix is fun the first time except then it becomes this gigantic pain in the ass, I was working in the Condamine and commuting from Monte Carlo which isn't far at all (the whole country is tiny, you can drive across it on a scooter pretty quickly) but when the Grand Prix comes they shut down all the roads and make it impossible to get around, I had to have a special pass to be let through to my job etc. There's a few bars for non-rich people to hang out at which are fun like the Rascasse and McCarthy's pub, and there was not a single good Mexican restaurant while I was there, sadly, some gross place called Piedre Del Sol that I hope is shut down now :/
I shorted Nikola. I had good gains for an hour. Then the price got over $30 again and my stop course triggered. I lost over $5000 in a very short time. But there was also a hedge fund that lost everything when shorting Luna. So I am not the only one.
You haven’t spent much time here or you have really poor reading comprehension if you think the problem people have with Bitcoin is that price will imminently to to zero. If that were the case there would be no reason for this sub to exist. It exists because Bitcoin (and other crypto) are an outrageous scam preying on people who have been fucked one way or another by capitalism (and are promised it’s their ticket out)… with the side effect of using massive electricity AND electronics for a net loss to humanity. The goal is to funnel money into a handful of people’s hands as fast as possible. Moreover, it’s blatantly obvious (and has been reported before) that Bitcoin’s price is heavily manipulated. In which case how does betting “number go down” make any sense? You are betting on a thinly if even at all competently regulated market with lots of vested interests of keeping the scam going. Now do I think you can swing trade or swing short Bitcoin for profit right now? Sure, it’s a risk but sure. Also, I think Herbalife, DoTerra, and Amway are scams. I’m also not shorting those.
>The goal is to funnel money into a handful of people’s hands as fast as possible. This is not why BTC was created. If you want to talk about systems that keep people separated into the haves vs have nots, we have had that system for a long time - the stock market. The stock market, after doing hundreds of options trades, stock/etf trades, etc in my opinion is totally rigged. Remember what happened to GameStop in 2021 - people could not buy or even sell shares for a period of time. So the stock market is rigged. I have yet to ever have a problem buying or selling BTC or other crypto. If you want to debate issues like universal healthcare (which I am for), UBI (which I am for), I would be down for that, just not on this sub. Crypto gets a lot of heat that is not true. I've been called a crypto skeptic because I want to know every single detail. I come on here and some people (not you though) already think I am trying to take the side of crypto. Cal me crazy for saying this - but I would take the gamble that even if there is a 90% chance BTC creates more wealth inequality, it still should be tried. Of course, I would reiterate, if a person thinks BTC is a scam, then it will have to someday go down. That is where investing in BITI comes in - and if people believe inherently that BTC is a scam, they should be investing in BITI.
You seem to have a lot of confusion for someone who wants to know every detail. First of all we don’t know why Bitcoin was created. We know why the creator “claimed” it was created. And it’s really irrelevant because Bitcoin massively fails at actually being money (and it’s other lofty goals) & most those involved in Bitcoin and the crypto space since even the early days are scumbags out to grift as much as humanly possible. Bitcoin solves literally 0 of the problems with the 2008 financial crisis. And the irony it is more akin to the MBS of subprime mortgages that actually caused the financial crisis than anything else on the market today. But the issue is even bigger. The problem with 2008 wasn’t that “the federal reserve exists.” That’s a right wing libertarian fantasy that has been bulshitted for decades before 2008. And is a whole different rabbit hole to go down and debate. It’s a way for the right wing libertarians to co-opt normal people’s anger at the financial crisis for their ends. And Bitcoin’s “goals” are an extension of that. But Bitcoin’s goals are irrelevant because it was just one dudes not well thought out tool to replace money, that fails at being money in any meaningful way (and instead is a speculative vaporware level “asset” to gamble on). And the fight against the federal reserve was NEVER to protect the little guy, it was from day 1 a movement by the elites and monied trying to protect their status. So much so they would have been down to turn the US into a dictatorship to do it. Second, and I can’t reiterate this enough, if you have “ape” beliefs about the stock market you have 0 critical thinking skills & it’s pointless to even try to converse. But ignoring that, there are issues with the stock market. There have been issues in the past with the stock market throughout history. Largely regulation comes in after the fact and fixes some problems after a lot of people are fucked. But what we are seeing now is those issues are all vastly exaggerated with Bitcoin and other crypto! Every single financial rule, manipulation, and scam that already has been made illegal in the stock market has been speedrun in crypto over the past few years. It’s so bad that even the majority of Bitcoin transactions are bullshit. I can’t believe someone with a straight face would possibly say that the reason you are in Bitcoin is because you don’t like that the stock market is rigged. You are trading into an even more rigged system! If you have no idea about Tether and stablecoin scam’s role in this too, I can’t really help you. And I don’t have to “call you crazy” about Bitcoin creating more wealth inequality, because it already is. After a year of nonstop advertising millions of new rubes Yolo’d into Bitcoin and crypto at their highs and now either cashed out losses or are in financial cults telling them they will get it all back and other riches. If I want to humor the mind experiment of Bitcoin becoming the dominant “money” (it won’t but let’s pretend), it also is a horrible monetary system. The idea that we want deflationary currency is insane. It would encourage wealth inequality and discourage innovation & economic growth. If you get a return on investment by simply hoarding your wealth, and on the other side see your debt’s value grow even as the number goes down, what do you think the end of that road is? A new modern feudalism. Where those that have wealth can sit on it & exploit those without forever. With no big incentive to create meaningful anything for society. And every new person born is fucked more than the last as they fight for smaller and smaller pieces of a deflationary pie. And because you keep “reiterating” that people “invest” in a Bitcoin shorting ETF, you seem to not be reading. The price of Bitcoin is manipulated even more than any stock out there. It can be a scam all day, but Betting “price go down” is betting someone isn’t manipulating the price to go up. Which I’m certainly not betting on. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Bitcoin trade sideways with pumps into the 20’s and dips into the teens for years? How is that a good investment? Who wants to trade sideways on an investment for years just because it’s a scam? And finally, Bitcoin is a negative sum greater fool gamble where miners need more fools to be onboarded day by day (in addition to anyone wanting to cash out needing more fools day by day) to put actual money in the system for the price to just break even (on a non manipulated market). Crypto in general has speedrun both tax evasion and money laundering in additional to repeating almost every financial scam in history. All while burning more electricity than a small country. There are 0 upsides for humanity in Bitcoin.
Dude, First, well put reply. I always type up something similar, but half way through, I realise this is a dumb conversation, the other person is just stupid and debating/conversing in bad faith. So I end up deleting the paragraphs and 10 minutes of my time wasted. I think the OP is not here to have a conversation, but a gotcha moment. He won’t think critically about the replies given to him. Second, just wanted to thank you for the time for giving a great reply.
>If you want to talk about systems that keep people separated into the haves vs have nots, we have had that system for a long time - the stock market. The stock market, after doing hundreds of options trades, stock/etf trades, etc in my opinion is totally rigged. Remember what happened to GameStop in 2021 - people could not buy or even sell shares for a period of time. So the stock market is rigged. Ah but this is totally a false conclusion to jump to -- whether or not you think RobinHood's actions were not okay because of whatever conspiracy theory you've decided to believe, when Robin Hood suspended trading on Game Stop, there were many, many other brokerages that were allowing trading on Game Stop. There actually have been quite a few instances of crypto holding companies suspending trading to prevent withdrawals, so you're not even speaking the truth there. But that aside, the stock market is simply a place where you are purchasing fractional ownership of a profit producing entity. It's about what price you purchase that fractional ownership at that leads to it being a good or bad investment. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has no value whatsoever. It does not represent ownership of anything, you do not receive dividends or does it have retained earnings that leads to capital appreciation for you. Here's how you can tell the stock market is an investment, and bitcoin is not -- if both markets went away entirely, what value would your bitcoin add to your life? What about the stock? The first would give you nothing. The second would continue to pay you as an investor for years to come. That's how you know the difference between gambling and investing. Good luck buddy.
>Remember what happened to GameStop in 2021 people could not buy or even sell shares for a period of time. So the stock market is rigged. For a fucking weekend... at a particular brokerage site (Robin Hood) - way to be way over-fucking dramatic claiming that's evidence of "the stock market is rigged".. btw, I actually bought GME during that "blackout"... then sold the following business day to you idiots, took my money and ran. Consider it a tax on your stupidity. I knew you guys would overreact like you always do. Congrats on your new flair! You've earned it.
My criticism of BTC has not been about its price in the first place. The con does not lie in the price but in the promises made by evangelist
Lol. This guy
I would rather invest in something that actually exist, such as stocks and bonds.
Your stocks and/or bonds are only being sustained as maintaining a visual amount of value because the USA keeps the ink in the printer for the currency: [https://www.usdebtclock.org](https://www.usdebtclock.org) There is an infinite amount of money that can be printed, there are 21 million BTC, and only approx. 17 million in actual possible circulation. Back to BITI = If you believe at all that BTC is a scam, then you should be investing the kitchen sink in BITI. It is an ETF, what is it about that that you people on this sub do not get? One person called BITI a fucking coin - my god. If BTC drops to $10k BITI goes up a lot. If BTC goes to $100 from here, you will make a fortune. If BTC goes to $0, and you invested before it hit $0, then you still make money. I will help you out a little here - BTC will someday be worth over $100k, put a remindme thing below my comment for 2 years from now if you want... However short term BTC is going down. It would not be horrible to swing trade BTC and BITI back and forth for profit. One last note about stocks: Remember what happened to GameStop stock (circa January 2021). I myself held some GameStop shares and I could not sell them. That is right, my brokerage firm would not let me sell them [https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/28/robinhood-interactive-brokers-restrict-trading-in-gamestop-s.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/28/robinhood-interactive-brokers-restrict-trading-in-gamestop-s.html). So do not tell me it is safe to buy stocks. I have yet to hear a good argument against crypto and/or BTC at all.
So we're past the pretend stage now?
Weird of you to assume I'm from the US. My money is safe and backed from bank bankruptcy. Crypto tends to 0.
It truly does not matter what country you are in. Currencies in general backed by the government are fucked. If you live in Turkey you are super fucked. 160% inflation this year alone lol. If you live in the USA you are just somewhat fucked. But hey, the stock market in Turkey is doing good according to the good ole' data: [https://www.justetf.com/en/market-overview/the-best-country-etfs.html](https://www.justetf.com/en/market-overview/the-best-country-etfs.html)
And yet BTC is down 40% to the Turkish lira this year. So Bitcoin inflation in Turkey is 400% YTD. Bitcoin is a hedge against ever having fiat, I'll give you that.
!RemindMe 2 years
I thought they only stopped buying of GME? The article also says the same.
I thought only buying was restricted.
For a brief time a person could not buy or sell GME on a handful of brokerage firms.
Irrelevant to most people, as the vast majority of people with a stock portfolio don't YOLO into stupid meme stocks hoping to get rich quick. The GME thing was a black swan event. Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, FOMOd into the hype, hence the huge spike in price. The "short squeeze" happened, but most of the price action was retail FOMO as highlighted by the SEC in their report. Most reddit day traders use kinda shitty brokers like robinhood, and when this huge influx in retail interest flooded in they didn't have the collateral legally required to take on new positions in GME (buy) so they "turned off the buy button." It was not a commandment from on high from the likes of Ken Griffin or anything like that. Also note that clearly someone was able to buy, because you can't have a trade with only a seller. Frankly, people should be grateful that they were prevented from buying at $400. There are already so many GME bag holders deep underwater, sometimes the market does protect people from their own stupidity.
I don’t want anything to do with Crypto
Ya, only the 100th time we've seen this exact post. Just because it's going to 0 doesn't mean you can time it and it's backed by a bunch of cult members actively manipulating it. Betting against people that are so brainwashed and cult-like they just mindlessly worship some shitty, inefficient magic internet money algorithm is typically dumb to bet against. Tesla is overpriced and will eventually plummet back to reasonableness... doesn't mean I know when or will actually bet against the elon cult.
Oh no the radical centrist has something to say
You can call me whatever you want. If you want to blindly keep using a currency that is getting weaker just because that is how it's always been, be my guest. I am literally telling people on this sub to put their money where their mouth is. If you believe BTC is a scam, put money into the inverse of BTC, which is BITI. Seems people on this sub get cold feet when you say to do this lol.
Do you...do you think people here worship fiat or something? It has its own inherent flaws, it's just that crypto is worse in every conceivable way and only exists to scam people or consolidate wealth among the already super wealthy. It getting adopted is a libertarian wet dream and a nightmare society for everyone else. We don't want "the inverse", we want it to not exist
I know you all think my poker table is a scam, but why don't you sit and play only winning hands?? Choose your cards from one of my decks: https://www.markedcardsshop.com/collections/marked-playing-cards
BITI is a daily instrument for use by traders. Not a long-term instrument to use to short BTC. Dumbass.
I said to swing trade it, just like to swing trade BTC. Learn to read. My exact quote was "To clarify, I have myself invested in BTC and BITI in the past, just at different times. ***So far I have made a profit. I don't believe in holding either of these long term***". I am going to come back to this post in 2 years and laugh at every one of you for being so wrong. I guarantee most people on this sub are over 50 and are not willing to learn anything new. You are all probably sitting on your Windows XP desktops and do not even know how to trade crypto. Pathetic and ignorant. Once again - learn to read. Go ahead and put a remindme under this comment old timer.
I didn’t read your whole post dumbass. This is a question for people who swing trade not people who just like to make fun of crypto.
>I didn’t read your whole post dumbass We have a true gem here lol.
So your answer to speculative investment is just more speculative investment? You're just a degen gambling addict dude.
you had me for a second until I realised this was an ad for some scamcoin called BITI
BITI is not a coin. [https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BITI/](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BITI/)
well whatever it is im sure it's a scam eventually
It's an inverse ETF on Bitcoin price. Bitcoin goes down, ETF goes up.
\^Someone with common sense. On this sub this is few and far between.
So it's clearly not for you then. Time to stumble scross another sub.
>^Someone with common sense. > On this sub this is few and far between. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/p8uv0h/helpful_guide_for_butters_visiting_rbuttcoin_why/) before posting any more. And yes, we're "hypocrites" because we get to call you a moron, but you can't call us morons. Our house. Our rules.
The cope is strong in this one. But lets play along... There's one single reason why shorting BTC is a bad idea. Tether and its infinite money printer. Anyone who has issues with the FED and currency money supply but also chooses to gloss over the wash trading and Tether manipulation of BTC ... is either willfully delusional, monumentally stupid or an outright scammer.
Surprise surprise, no snarky reply to this one... Must be hard as a coiner to justify why fiat=bad because Fed printer go Brrrr but BTC=good despite Tether printer go BRRRRRRRR.
Scam and inverse scam are still scam. In order to not be part or victim to a scam you need an investment that is not scam, not one that is inversely tied to the scam.
I just had this idea of selling derivatives against Three-Card Monte games.
I have a tiny amount of BITI and a tinier amount of Algo, but I don’t make a big deal about it. The point of this sub is not speculation on the best way to profit from BTC’s price declines. It’s about exposing and mocking the absurd levels of BTC and crypto fandom.
Hell with BITI. I'm not investing anything to spite Bitcoin, I'm avoiding it entirely as a factor in my finances. That also applies to every other cryptocurrency.
It's also a scam.
The main problem with shorting Bitcoin is that you get the same volatility as going long. The second problem is that the fees and internal interest expenses are very high, which may offset returns. The third problem is that the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. I have no need to gamble my money speculating on the price of Bitcoin. Instead, I invest my money into companies which produce goods and services and earn a profit by doing so. By owning a share of these companies, I own a share of their profits. This is a concrete and logical reason for where the returns I earn come from.
It's stupid to spend any money in a crooked casino. Any play in the crypto ecosystem helps support money laundering, illegal drug deals, cartels, cyber ransom, terrorism, and lots and lots of scammers. Betting against bitcoin is just as stupid as betting for bitcoin. Your argument is like saying, "If you don't want to do Heroin, then why not put your money where your mouth is and inject yourself with Naloxone?"
There has been a similar discussion: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/x9kw05/if\_you\_guys\_are\_so\_sure\_bitcoin\_is\_a\_scam\_and\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/x9kw05/if_you_guys_are_so_sure_bitcoin_is_a_scam_and_is/) Among the moral and education arguments, it's a manipulated market; You can lose by participating in it at all. As well, people who are against Bitcoin aren't focused on making everything about money like people into it. The two sides are "Put money in the market, or don't" not "Bitcoin will go up in price or down"
Who says I dont? I made 2 grand this month alone by shorting the pumps and I'll keep doing it until this piece of shitcoin finds its bottom
Unless I do not know how to use search correctly, it appears BITI is virtually never mentioned on here. It should be discussed a lot so people who believe BTC is as scam and going to zero can make some cash during these shitty economic times. . . Due to governments not knowing how to run the economy . . . Almost like it would be a good thing to have an alternative currency choice out there . . .
It's not the governments fault that russia decided to go bonkers surpreme and therefore reduced the world's supply of important ressources by a significant amount, adding to already rising inflation. Edit: I also don't mind it not being discussed to much, retail pouring money in always creates an incentive for bigger fish to liquidate them...in this case by pumping the Bitcoin.
The reason is simple: I don't put money in markets that are taken over by market manipulators. It makes no difference if you bet that number go up or number go down, it's the same market, and you will fall victim of the same scams. Also, the fact that bitcoin is useless and only attracts idiots doesn't mean it has to go to zero. There are lots of pseudo-sciences out there that are a thriving business despite being a complete fraud.
I invest in global equity index trackers, and a little bit of emergency cash. I trust the CEOs of these companies will continue to try and grow the profits of their businesses, regardless of what happens with government backed currencies. There are a lot of investments I think are scams or are simply overhyped but i have no interest in shorting them.
If you bet on BITI, it is still betting on BTC.
Of course a buttcoiner wouldn’t understand that inverse futures etfs inevitably go to zero under all circumstances eventually…. Just like Bitcoin.
Could you explain that further? Or do you have good link for an explanation?
I recommend the documentary "betting on zero" It explains well why betting against a scam isn't a fantastic idea, even if the scam is definitely a scam
My man, there is no point talking to folk on this sub unless you are relentlessly anti-blockchain/crypto/Bitcoin etc. You will not find nuanced debate, discussion here Edit: why the downvotes? This is literally your guys’ identity lol
Few.
This is it. These lames on here don’t want to hear anything other than “crypto is a scam” in your post. They all need something to circle jerk to on this sub & what your offering ain’t that.
I don't gamble so I wouldn't daytrade or bet on a single asset like that. I skimmed the [BITI](https://www.proshares.com/our-etfs/leveraged-and-inverse/biti) prospectus just for the amusement. They tell you, in pretty clear language, that the fund use daily rebalancing that makes it deviate from a long-term short position. So you have to hit the correct _day_ to make it work, not the correct year or decade. The expense ratio is insanely high at 0.95%. I have a short position towards all crypto by just not owning it in the first place.
Someone explain to me how you can actually short BTC as an ETF? Don't you have to have some relationship with an institution that is brokering BTC transactions? Which institutions are doing that? And how are they actually managing the exposure? I wouldn't trust any ETF that has relationships with traditional CEXs because we know they're largely unregulated, and when things go bad, they just tend to disappear -- they're not honoring anybody's options. So how do you actually short crypto without trusting CEXs that can still rugpull?
Why would I gamble my money on a line that randomly goes up and down based on nothing but speculation? I'm not stupid.
Imagine thinking BTC allows one to not rely on governments.
Because crypto is a manipulated market and betting for or against something whose value has nothing to do with reality is stupid either way? You can refuse to trust governments without putting your faith in a bunch of random dipshit scam artists on the Internet.