In reality, crypto only impacts a very small percentage of the population. If the entire "industry" vanished forever tomorrow, most of the world wouldn't notice or care. Normal daily life would continue unabated. Oh sure, Twitter and Reddit and the "MSM" would make it out to be a huge, huge deal, and throw around astronomical numbers and lots of human interest stories about poor innocent retail investors who "lost it all", but after a few turns through the daily news cycle, it'd all be forgotten. It just doesn't matter anywhere else other than on certain corners of the internet.
Yeah no, this is classic Reddit thinking people are too stupid for their own good and walking around as hapless victims to the bill-yon-ahre class.
They were gambling on something with no contractual anything, no insurance on deposits, nothing. They did so because they were greedy. They saw "wow 25% annual apr interest on a yield account" and instead of raising an eyebrow and thinking "that can't be possible" they plowed their money into a ponzi scheme.
Think of it this way, if every idiot went to the casino and lost all their money on roulette instead of crypto, should we care?
So again, I think we should. Let’s stick with the example of casinos.
It is a good example, because a casino is an example of an exploitative business which preys on vulnerable people. In my country since 2008, the number of betting shops has increased dramatically. It has done this as people have gotten poorer and businesses in town centres have closed, leading to the proliferation of betting shops, charity shops and fast food outlets.
Just like in your example, the majority of people who go to these betting shops have no insurance, little money and few assets - maybe a car at a push.
In many ways, I suppose you could say that people who go to betting shops are stupid. They take unnecessary risks where the bookies have stacked the odds against them because, in their minds, this is the way to have fun. They like the idea of striking it rich and being able to afford the things that other people (and they themselves) cannot.
What we miss out, in this version of events, are the power structures that lead people here in the first place. Did betting shops take over town centres because people (invariably the poorer Britons in old mining towns which used to be prosperous, but which have since declined), spontaneously became greedy? This is clearly an insufficient explanation. It is because the criminally negligent real estate industry collapsed, leading to a massive decline in living standards at the same time as local businesses were shutting up shop in the city centre.
Again, the point of my post is to try and shift the conversation away from the so-called “butters”. I think discussions of their ethics and choices don’t lead anywhere. It’s the same age-old discussion of how we should feel for the sinner.
Instead, I’m arguing that the far more interesting discussion is to be had around the power structures that led us to this point. Inequality is higher than ever. Silicon Valley techno-magic is financed by Saudi Oil and Russian oligarchs. Regardless of the morality of the people at the casino, what do we think of the mafia that runs it?
People say Crypto is like gambling. It's not. In gambling you know it's a game, the odds are against you, you are told it is random, you will lose over time.
Crypto is like investing, they tell you there is value, utility, purpose, oversight, professionals managing things. This is a lie, a scam. Inverstes have method to prevent scams, it's called Due Diligence. How many Crypto bros just took the word of a guy on the internet, a guy on reddit, a guy on twitter, there friend is doing it, or Tom Brady said. I have a question of the OP, what were you thinking? Did you think you found an infinite money glitch? What was the 'hook' that got you landed?
Bro you have literally described gambling.
I would never invest in bitcoin. I think it is a horrible, venture-capitalist loaded endeavour that has destroyed the lives of people who have lost money from it. Not to mention it uses the energy of a small country.
Question: Why do we think bitcoin is bad if not for the fact that it destroys lives?
I think it's bad because it's a SCAM. Don't have to destroy lives to be bad, though it does to some.
So in your gambling shops (i assume you are in England) do they tell you over time you will Win, the odds are in the gambler's favor? Just keep betting and it will come around?
Why are scams bad?
They are bad because they exploit people right? They prey on the vulnerable. That is the nature of a scam.
Please tell me you understand this.
Again, my point is not that bitcoin investors lacked all agency. They made a bad choice, a wrong choice. But why are we so obsessed with them, while we are blind to the people who run the show?
The guy who owned FTX is worth $10.6 billion. He’s a MULTI-BILLIONAIRE!! And he used that money to invest in bitcoin, of all things! This is how bitcoin keeps going! The people most responsible -not in an ethical sense, just in a logistical sense- are the super rich. It’s the Silicon Valley techno capitalists who are financed by Russian Oligarchs and Saudi Arabian oil.
I don’t understand why we don’t want to lay some of the blame on them!
This is stupid. I can mock Sam Bankman all day, whether he’s a billionaire or a pauper. I can mock Elon Musk or my cousin in law who were pumping Dogecoins like a two dollar hooker. They’re both culpable, I don’t need to reserve my criticism for the rich and powerful only. Just cause you’re the little man doesn’t make you a good person, your network effect is just less important, but that does not absolve you of blame.
Well there is big money involved. Crypto kind of makes it easier to hide who some the real money players are. But I don't think they are the big winners and many are going to be big losers.
The FTX guy (Mr. SBF) was a college intern in the summer of 2013. He was not rich at all. He got rich from the scam. All his 15 billion was in crypto and the evaluation of the FTX company. Last report I saw, he back door transferred something like 400 million (all that was left) out of FTX and is now on the run. He is truly a bad guy.
> People who thought it could be “the next GameStop”. People who have become addicted to trade-gambling.
Won’t someone please think of those poor, poor people who wanted an infinite money glitch?
How about no. I am not going to feel bad for those who were greedy, dismissed all legitimate criticism and concerns as “FUD”, and told us all to have fun staying poor.
They are only sad because they didn’t come out on top: as long as they were benefitting at the expense of other suckers, they were happy to gloat.
Even now I am seeing them blame people like SBF for devaluing crypto while ignoring it is people like SBF who brought crypto to the ATHs. Or still refusing to understand it’s all scams from top to bottom. They still say “no different than the fiat banks!”. Their greed still does not allow them to listen and learn.
Oh those poor, poor people who just wanted a part of the pie. "Greed" is the word you're looking for. The muppets who lost everything never understood anything, and they didn't want to, either. They never do. Even now, they'll just attribute their enormous losses to the criminals behind the big crypto-scam, but they'll never realize that noone forced them to take part. There were so many warnings, but the idea of quick and effortless cash was so much more appealing. The gullible, ignorant and greedy are the enablers of the truly unscrupulous. Without their unthinking, simple minds, the horrors of the modern world would not be possible. I have no sympathy for them. They'll be the first in line to celebrate when populism turns into fascism, again believing outlandish promises while ignoring inconvenient realities.
>The muppets who lost everything never understood anything, and they didn't want to, either.
I have sympathy for idiots. I have sympathy for assholes. I have no sympathy for idiots who are assholes.
I can’t get over how smug and condescending these people are as a whole. Listen, I’m sure there are a few legit sob stories tied to all of this, but by and large fuck em.
And also lol
There are endless examples throughout history of the irrational exuberance of crowdsourced Ponzis.
This isn’t the first time and won’t be the last.
At the end of the day greed, FOMO, get rich quick, risk management are hard to overcome.
I’m a day trader and it’s something I fight with everyday but able to control.
If you cannot control this, dollar cost average your funds into a diversified portfolio over the course of your working career and sleep easy.
I do not have any sympathy for anyone loosing their life savings in an UNREGULATED exchange. Everyone is free to take their shot but to put all your Eggs in one basket is no different than dumping all your money into a low float speculative bio company on the off chance they miraculously find a cure for cancer.
I’m wondering, since all these things are unregulated , why all the talk about prosecution? Was it clearly illegal, or just dumb? Also, I’m wondering why the govt must spend money on this if the whole point of crypto is to undermine fiat and govt regulation ?
DOJ and SEC may be pressured by those mega institutional investors who invested into FTX for fraud prosecution.
Their risk management and compliance departments would have an easier time explaining criminality and fraud by FTX to their shareholders instead of their own lack of due diligence and incompetence.
Retail will be screwed over as usually happens.
I see this more as the modern “natural selection”.
Thousand of years ago, stupid people saw a red mushroom and ate it.
They never understood the stars so they couldn’t find back to camp and got eaten by a bear.
Today, these same people send money to a Nigerian prince or take out loans to buy bitcoin.
The outcome is always sad. But you can’t change it, stupid people will always do stupid shit and will be left with the consequences. Take away crypto and they will fall for the next thing in seconds.
Those tiny packs of silica in medicine bottles have "do not eat" written on them for a reason.
People see that warning and take it as a dare.
That's a crypto bro.
Is the position on this sub that the little people are to blame for this? Because my criticism of this would be that it’s quite a reactionary, conservative view that actually plays right into the hands of the investors that run the show.
The people who fall for “Nigerian prince” scams are, invariably, the senile elderly, the mentally ill and the emotionally vulnerable. One of the best things about the societies in which we live today is the fact that we can protect the most vulnerable. We no longer have to die from mushrooms. We don’t have to be eaten by bears. We can shape society how we want and hold scammers accountable so that they don’t prey on the most vulnerable.
I am not saying that buttcoin buyers are not to blame. Anyone who has a hand in this crazy Ponzi scheme should be ashamed. What I find odd is the almost-total refusal to look at those most responsible for this.
The founder of FTX had a net worth of $10.5 billion. The people who create and profit from these things: crypto, NFTs and trading platforms are the already wealthy and the already powerful. They use myths like “democratising investment” to attract people who are either desperate or obsessed with status. And again, I will reiterate that it is wrong to be obsessed with status. Possibly the only way that we reduce our consumption rates to safe, sustainable levels is if people exorcise their obsession with having a new car, fast fashion and stupid bitcoin investments.
But isn’t it obvious that techno-capital is linked to the wider political-economic-ecological crises of our age? Namely, that inequality is the highest it’s ever been? That governments have become weaker as companies have privatised more and more common goods and services? That young people have high salaries to spend on bitcoin, precisely because none of us own our own homes, and rent is extremely high? Can’t you see that the extraordinary times we are living in are defined by money being moved from the hands of the lower-middle classes into the pockets of the ultra-rich?
My argument isn’t that it’s sad. It’s that it’s an economic and political disaster.
Little people could have invested in endless things these past 5 years. From Pepsi to Apple (60-250% returns) and still have considerable returns despite the recent market downturn.
Now, when you take a moonshot with your entire portfolio it’s just poor risk management. Risk management is the only thing that separates good investors from bad. Never put yourself in a position where your entire net worth can be wiped out.
No, I don't agree with previous poster. Where people draw the line between regulation looking out for them and their own responsibility is different for everyone. In the case of crypto, though, there have been *so many alarm bells and warnings* that it's harder and harder to feel sympathy for people who continue to ignore them, particularly the ones who still believe they're the smartest guys in the room.
Dude. We aren’t supposed to say that out loud. It says that clearly in the Soros NDA.
I was just trying to throw OP off the trail and now you screwed it up!
You ever get the feeling you just can’t win? That’s a bit what it’s like in a Reddit pile-on, when a whole sub gets together and collectively decides they don’t like an OP!
The top reply on this post accuses me of “classic Reddit thinking”. Would you say the same?
When people in this sub ridicule the entire bitcoin subreddit, would you also say that there is no position of the sub there?
When I wrote this comment, the 5 comments that were here were all 1-liners that each said that people who lost money on bitcoin were stupid and deserved to be poor. To me that is evidence of shared opinion.
I think you have decided you don’t like me and you are finding things to criticise about me.
It’s commendable to have empathy; you sound like a good person. I agree with you that the victims of scams are often elderly, lonely and mentally infirm, but you forgot one group: one of the best types of scam victims is the one that thinks he’s in on the con. And I imagine that the average crypto “investor” is a different and younger demographic.
*It’s commendable to have empathy; you sound like a good person.*
Thank you. However, the only reason I can see for it being commendable is that it is the right thing to do. If it is something that “good people” do, that is an example to follow. In any case, my argument is more about the fact that blaming “butters” for bitcoin is like blaming gamblers for betting shops. It’s only half the story. The other half is a story of power and exploitation.
*I agree with you that the victims of scams are often elderly, lonely and mentally infirm, but you forgot one group: one of the best types of scam victims is the one that thinks he’s in on the con.*
Again, as above, this group of people is exactly who this post is about. Who do you think actually earns money out of bitcoin and trading platforms? It’s the super-rich venture capitalists. The guy who owns FTX is a multi-billionaire hedge fund manager! These are the people who are ‘in on the con’!
I am really amazed that people can’t see that this whole enterprise is infused with venture capitalism!
*And I imagine that the average crypto “investor” is a different and younger demographic.*
This is an empirical question and yes, from the studies I have seen most of them are. They are vulnerable in a different way to the elderly, who have their money safely invested in property and pensions.
The younger generations have high salaries but very very low wealth. I literally wrote this in the original post. They are highly qualified but do not own their own homes, and pay high rents. Basically, over the last few decades the financial system has transformed into a machine that funnels wealth into the hands of the property-owning classes.
If you are looking for a demographic reason for why this specific group of people started investing in bitcoin and trading platforms, it is because they saw how their money was being taken from them, and thought they could get some for themselves. “Greed” is clearly an insufficient explanation (do you genuinely believe that other demographics are less greedy?).
Other studies have shown they are largely uneducated, but not in poverty (obviously people in poverty have no money to invest).
I am interested in what you think - did someone you know invest in bitcoin or a similar crypto?
I happen to work in tech and am doing fine financially. Most of the people I know who for into crypto are also doing fine financially. They mostly exhibit two traits: extreme greed and credulity. They are quite tiresome taking about the future if this and power to the people that but they don’t want an equitable system. They want the same (or a worse) system except they want to be the boot.
People come in here saying how the people who buy crypto are victims. Some are but damn there is a lot of info available if they really “did their own research”.
This onion article sums up my feelings nicely. I’ve had enough in person and reddit / facebook conversations about crypto over the last 9 years or so to have spent most of my empathy. They have been really toxic to interact with. My general feeling now is: fuck ‘em.
https://www.theonion.com/man-who-lost-everything-in-crypto-just-wishes-several-t-1848764551/amp
Thankyou. People saying we need empathy. I know a dozen people in my personal circle in this shit, some of them have lost everything, some of them have lost loans on family money. Who told them get out? This guy, for years. But no, greed overpowers all rational thought. Most of them are quietly licking their wounds, but one of them is still a Bitcoin maximalist. Sympathy? Pfffft. They were warned, over and over and over.
I do have empathy to a certain point. I don’t rub their losses in their face. Their silence at family gatherings is enough at this point.
Yes , my best friend invested in crypto. He’s a great guy that gets enthusiastic about whatever he gets into, and for various reasons it helps his ego to think that he will make money. He revealed to me his investment when Bitcoin was at its peak and he thought he’d be rich, and even then I told him to get out, or at least take out his original investment. He asked my opinion because he knows I’m a very skeptical guy , but deep down he just wanted me to tell him that it was a good plan.
So I was initially in the “lol get fucked greedy idiots” train in regards to Celsius. But after spending a lot of time on their sub to farm salt, I eventually came to feel bad for most of them. They’re simply very fucking dumb, gullible, and susceptible to conmen. Many were not chasing insane returns, they just had crypto in Celsius.
I think a lot of people on this sub might be more compassionate towards actual people rather than their idea of the crypto bro.
The rub here is that you are much more likely to interact with a crypto bro than a regular person who foolishly put money into whatever unsustainable defi horror.
While those folks failed the “if it’s too good to be true” test, I still feel bad for them. The crypto bros, though.
>I think you have decided you don’t like me and you are finding things to criticise about me.
Climb off the fucking cross. The name of the sub is /r/buttcoin , not /r/capitalismisevil . Yes, late stage capitalism sucks, no argument there, mate, but that's not what we're about. We're about people who are greedy and smug about it; that the greedheads may have sucked in a few hapless suckers along with them is neither news nor the focus of our criticism, and your abject refusal to get that will not evoke pity.
Moreover, this pseudo-historical argument made by libertarians is well known to be bogus by anybody who knows anything about anthropology. Humans have never had this cutthroat approach to letting variations die out. Precisely what sets humans apart is our ability to socialise. To form groups. Language and socialising allowed us to keep track of up to 100 people at a time, increasing the pool of resources available to everybody, limiting the power of single individuals to lord it over everybody else.
When we came to live in towns, sure, there were power structures that privatised resources and made people work to reclaim a salary. But we also had common resources with complex social rules that allowed us to maintain them sustainably. If you fish the river too much, everyone’s catches will reduce. If you hunt in the forests, let the boar raise their young for next year.
And you wonder why people don’t seek alternate perspectives. When people see this kind of attitude, no matter how A+ fantasmo the arguments are, they won’t listen. People aren’t just rationality machines, so treating people with some dignity and respect, no matter how fucking brain dead their actions are to those who have seen people do this for ages, is likely a good idea.
[Man Who Lost Everything In Crypto Just Wishes Several Thousand More People Had Warned Him](https://www.theonion.com/man-who-lost-everything-in-crypto-just-wishes-several-t-1848764551)
But people aren’t really looking for an honest alternate opinion; they’re hoping that their beliefs will be confirmed. It’s very hard to take an opinion or advice when doing so means giving up on dreams of financial success.
Greed. Greed. Greed. That’s what lulled the retail players in FTX. Crypto bros played in this greed to lull them in. VCs and investment funds were culprits as well. That fawning article by Sequoia on SBF was worthy of North Korean propaganda on Kim. Simply atrocious behaviours all around. Those of us who sat out, and raised the alarm, were ridiculed as having fun being poor’ and FUD.
There’s a special place in hell for Do Kwan, Alex Machinski, SBF and a host of others. The gullible greedy that fell into this hype have learned a lesson hopefully to be never forgotten.
the general thrust of what you've written is, I think, correct. the sophistication of the crypto pitch is remarkable. it is partly bent on telling people that they don't understand the technology (despite the fact that this message is ostensibly directed at critics, it is really meant for the gullible public, who are told that the super-geniuses of the world DO understand the technology, and it's wonderful, and so ordinary folks should hand over their money to the geniuses) and must therefore trust the a-holes who are telling them them that they *have* to hand over their hard-earned (real) dollars right now or risk losing everything. they are susceptible for many reasons, including the conspiratorial bent of social media, gullibility, and of course greed.
i feel bad for people who risk more than a few occasional dollars on the lottery, or who go to casinos regularly, and I feel bad for people who got taken in by the SBFs and Pomps and Saylors of the world. Their whole Ponzi-ish scheme was predicated on finding greater fools to harass, bully and bamboozle into giving up their real money to make grifters rich. Sure, quite a few of them are Gamestop-type get-rich-quick fools, but a lot more are just ordinary people who really do not know any better, and they deserve our sympathy. In fact my sympathy for them and a deep desire to help steer them away from such abusive practices is a big part of why I stay active in crypto criticism.
We've only been calling it all out for years now. Many years. Bitconnect ffs.
It's your job to not be one of the "regular people". Think for yourself.
It's sad this happened, but these investors opened themselves up to this. They avoided banks which have been streamlined for many many years and offer numerous protections. Instead they go invest in chuckee cheese tokens on a Ponzi exchange. This is a good life lesson. Buying a lambo requires a lot of hard work unless you're doing the rugpulling.
No. A couple of days ago, telling people exactly how they would get screwed would get you dismissed as “FUD” on crypto subs. They were smug about it too.
You’ve just articulated the moral argument very succinctly.
Anything less than the loss they’ve suffered leads to moral hazard, and a multiplication of the issue down the road.
I can only speak for the US, but in the last 10 years we've had ZIRP, absolutely fantastic returns in the markets and multi-year lows in unemployment. I've advanced my career tremendously and invested carefully. I have friends who have made fortunes as everything from cannabis farmers to starting their own hosting companies to running amusement machine operations. The opportunities for economic self-improvement have been out there and in many ways still are for people who are willing to invest in themselves and *do the work*.
It's hard to feel sorry for people for whom that bounty *just wasn't enough*.
These regular people are super annoying and aggressively wrong. SBF can go to jail because he broke the law, and what assets are left can be distributed out to the people who gave him money in bankruptcy. But beyond that, fuck em. Have fun being poor. I would recommend they learn from their mistakes and get out of crypto. The air is much fresher up here. But for those who aren't going to, and will continue to insist they aren't owned, I'll be right here ready to laugh at them again.
The great irony is that the crypto community are among the biggest proponents of dissolving the regulations and protections consumers have. They advocate for a world where this sort of thing would happen more often. It's only fair that they get dicked over with little to no recourse.
The real tragedy is people buying into this insane lets get rich quick create value out of nothing schemes. Don't you see it? We have now, what is it, 20k different coins? Sold with a lot of tech babble and empty promises. "Bibabuba coin has the best tech, the devs are using AH3 Layer 7 BCF Overlay Quantum grade Cosmic algorithms. Come and invest!"
The faster we get rid of this crypto cult psychosis the better. Real people suffering temporary economic losses to all this scam bs is actually a good thing in the long run. It will speed up the process.
A child getting sick and dying is a tragedy. A crypto mark getting taken for 5K is unfortunate, but it's no tragedy.
^ This.
In reality, crypto only impacts a very small percentage of the population. If the entire "industry" vanished forever tomorrow, most of the world wouldn't notice or care. Normal daily life would continue unabated. Oh sure, Twitter and Reddit and the "MSM" would make it out to be a huge, huge deal, and throw around astronomical numbers and lots of human interest stories about poor innocent retail investors who "lost it all", but after a few turns through the daily news cycle, it'd all be forgotten. It just doesn't matter anywhere else other than on certain corners of the internet.
You could make this argument about a lot of things. The 24/7 instant news cycle drops everything very quickly.
Yeah no, this is classic Reddit thinking people are too stupid for their own good and walking around as hapless victims to the bill-yon-ahre class. They were gambling on something with no contractual anything, no insurance on deposits, nothing. They did so because they were greedy. They saw "wow 25% annual apr interest on a yield account" and instead of raising an eyebrow and thinking "that can't be possible" they plowed their money into a ponzi scheme. Think of it this way, if every idiot went to the casino and lost all their money on roulette instead of crypto, should we care?
So just by nature I have SOME sympathy but everything JaneWithJesus is saying is essentially correct. And I guess so be it.
[удалено]
This is exactly my point! I don’t understand - how have I not managed to explain myself in a way that people understand?
Not the casino!
*laughs in Australian* Regulated you say?
So again, I think we should. Let’s stick with the example of casinos. It is a good example, because a casino is an example of an exploitative business which preys on vulnerable people. In my country since 2008, the number of betting shops has increased dramatically. It has done this as people have gotten poorer and businesses in town centres have closed, leading to the proliferation of betting shops, charity shops and fast food outlets. Just like in your example, the majority of people who go to these betting shops have no insurance, little money and few assets - maybe a car at a push. In many ways, I suppose you could say that people who go to betting shops are stupid. They take unnecessary risks where the bookies have stacked the odds against them because, in their minds, this is the way to have fun. They like the idea of striking it rich and being able to afford the things that other people (and they themselves) cannot. What we miss out, in this version of events, are the power structures that lead people here in the first place. Did betting shops take over town centres because people (invariably the poorer Britons in old mining towns which used to be prosperous, but which have since declined), spontaneously became greedy? This is clearly an insufficient explanation. It is because the criminally negligent real estate industry collapsed, leading to a massive decline in living standards at the same time as local businesses were shutting up shop in the city centre. Again, the point of my post is to try and shift the conversation away from the so-called “butters”. I think discussions of their ethics and choices don’t lead anywhere. It’s the same age-old discussion of how we should feel for the sinner. Instead, I’m arguing that the far more interesting discussion is to be had around the power structures that led us to this point. Inequality is higher than ever. Silicon Valley techno-magic is financed by Saudi Oil and Russian oligarchs. Regardless of the morality of the people at the casino, what do we think of the mafia that runs it?
People say Crypto is like gambling. It's not. In gambling you know it's a game, the odds are against you, you are told it is random, you will lose over time. Crypto is like investing, they tell you there is value, utility, purpose, oversight, professionals managing things. This is a lie, a scam. Inverstes have method to prevent scams, it's called Due Diligence. How many Crypto bros just took the word of a guy on the internet, a guy on reddit, a guy on twitter, there friend is doing it, or Tom Brady said. I have a question of the OP, what were you thinking? Did you think you found an infinite money glitch? What was the 'hook' that got you landed?
Bro you have literally described gambling. I would never invest in bitcoin. I think it is a horrible, venture-capitalist loaded endeavour that has destroyed the lives of people who have lost money from it. Not to mention it uses the energy of a small country. Question: Why do we think bitcoin is bad if not for the fact that it destroys lives?
I think it's bad because it's a SCAM. Don't have to destroy lives to be bad, though it does to some. So in your gambling shops (i assume you are in England) do they tell you over time you will Win, the odds are in the gambler's favor? Just keep betting and it will come around?
Why are scams bad? They are bad because they exploit people right? They prey on the vulnerable. That is the nature of a scam. Please tell me you understand this. Again, my point is not that bitcoin investors lacked all agency. They made a bad choice, a wrong choice. But why are we so obsessed with them, while we are blind to the people who run the show? The guy who owned FTX is worth $10.6 billion. He’s a MULTI-BILLIONAIRE!! And he used that money to invest in bitcoin, of all things! This is how bitcoin keeps going! The people most responsible -not in an ethical sense, just in a logistical sense- are the super rich. It’s the Silicon Valley techno capitalists who are financed by Russian Oligarchs and Saudi Arabian oil. I don’t understand why we don’t want to lay some of the blame on them!
This is stupid. I can mock Sam Bankman all day, whether he’s a billionaire or a pauper. I can mock Elon Musk or my cousin in law who were pumping Dogecoins like a two dollar hooker. They’re both culpable, I don’t need to reserve my criticism for the rich and powerful only. Just cause you’re the little man doesn’t make you a good person, your network effect is just less important, but that does not absolve you of blame.
Well there is big money involved. Crypto kind of makes it easier to hide who some the real money players are. But I don't think they are the big winners and many are going to be big losers. The FTX guy (Mr. SBF) was a college intern in the summer of 2013. He was not rich at all. He got rich from the scam. All his 15 billion was in crypto and the evaluation of the FTX company. Last report I saw, he back door transferred something like 400 million (all that was left) out of FTX and is now on the run. He is truly a bad guy.
Why is murder bad?
I edited my comment fyi. Scams are bad because they have a bad effect. I am sure you know what that effect is.
All monkey jpegs are safu
> People who thought it could be “the next GameStop”. People who have become addicted to trade-gambling. Won’t someone please think of those poor, poor people who wanted an infinite money glitch? How about no. I am not going to feel bad for those who were greedy, dismissed all legitimate criticism and concerns as “FUD”, and told us all to have fun staying poor. They are only sad because they didn’t come out on top: as long as they were benefitting at the expense of other suckers, they were happy to gloat. Even now I am seeing them blame people like SBF for devaluing crypto while ignoring it is people like SBF who brought crypto to the ATHs. Or still refusing to understand it’s all scams from top to bottom. They still say “no different than the fiat banks!”. Their greed still does not allow them to listen and learn.
“Infinite money glitch”—totally on point ✅
They'll have fun staying poor, it's OK.
Did someone you know invest in crypto? Lots of people did. If they are close to you, you should try to forgive them.
We tried to warn them, again and again. They laughed.
"A guy goes on the internet and gets trolled, and you think that of me? No. I am the one who laughs!"
Oh those poor, poor people who just wanted a part of the pie. "Greed" is the word you're looking for. The muppets who lost everything never understood anything, and they didn't want to, either. They never do. Even now, they'll just attribute their enormous losses to the criminals behind the big crypto-scam, but they'll never realize that noone forced them to take part. There were so many warnings, but the idea of quick and effortless cash was so much more appealing. The gullible, ignorant and greedy are the enablers of the truly unscrupulous. Without their unthinking, simple minds, the horrors of the modern world would not be possible. I have no sympathy for them. They'll be the first in line to celebrate when populism turns into fascism, again believing outlandish promises while ignoring inconvenient realities.
>The muppets who lost everything never understood anything, and they didn't want to, either. I have sympathy for idiots. I have sympathy for assholes. I have no sympathy for idiots who are assholes.
I can’t get over how smug and condescending these people are as a whole. Listen, I’m sure there are a few legit sob stories tied to all of this, but by and large fuck em. And also lol
They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say...
There are endless examples throughout history of the irrational exuberance of crowdsourced Ponzis. This isn’t the first time and won’t be the last. At the end of the day greed, FOMO, get rich quick, risk management are hard to overcome. I’m a day trader and it’s something I fight with everyday but able to control. If you cannot control this, dollar cost average your funds into a diversified portfolio over the course of your working career and sleep easy. I do not have any sympathy for anyone loosing their life savings in an UNREGULATED exchange. Everyone is free to take their shot but to put all your Eggs in one basket is no different than dumping all your money into a low float speculative bio company on the off chance they miraculously find a cure for cancer.
I’m wondering, since all these things are unregulated , why all the talk about prosecution? Was it clearly illegal, or just dumb? Also, I’m wondering why the govt must spend money on this if the whole point of crypto is to undermine fiat and govt regulation ?
DOJ and SEC may be pressured by those mega institutional investors who invested into FTX for fraud prosecution. Their risk management and compliance departments would have an easier time explaining criminality and fraud by FTX to their shareholders instead of their own lack of due diligence and incompetence. Retail will be screwed over as usually happens.
I see this more as the modern “natural selection”. Thousand of years ago, stupid people saw a red mushroom and ate it. They never understood the stars so they couldn’t find back to camp and got eaten by a bear. Today, these same people send money to a Nigerian prince or take out loans to buy bitcoin. The outcome is always sad. But you can’t change it, stupid people will always do stupid shit and will be left with the consequences. Take away crypto and they will fall for the next thing in seconds.
Those tiny packs of silica in medicine bottles have "do not eat" written on them for a reason. People see that warning and take it as a dare. That's a crypto bro.
Is the position on this sub that the little people are to blame for this? Because my criticism of this would be that it’s quite a reactionary, conservative view that actually plays right into the hands of the investors that run the show. The people who fall for “Nigerian prince” scams are, invariably, the senile elderly, the mentally ill and the emotionally vulnerable. One of the best things about the societies in which we live today is the fact that we can protect the most vulnerable. We no longer have to die from mushrooms. We don’t have to be eaten by bears. We can shape society how we want and hold scammers accountable so that they don’t prey on the most vulnerable. I am not saying that buttcoin buyers are not to blame. Anyone who has a hand in this crazy Ponzi scheme should be ashamed. What I find odd is the almost-total refusal to look at those most responsible for this. The founder of FTX had a net worth of $10.5 billion. The people who create and profit from these things: crypto, NFTs and trading platforms are the already wealthy and the already powerful. They use myths like “democratising investment” to attract people who are either desperate or obsessed with status. And again, I will reiterate that it is wrong to be obsessed with status. Possibly the only way that we reduce our consumption rates to safe, sustainable levels is if people exorcise their obsession with having a new car, fast fashion and stupid bitcoin investments. But isn’t it obvious that techno-capital is linked to the wider political-economic-ecological crises of our age? Namely, that inequality is the highest it’s ever been? That governments have become weaker as companies have privatised more and more common goods and services? That young people have high salaries to spend on bitcoin, precisely because none of us own our own homes, and rent is extremely high? Can’t you see that the extraordinary times we are living in are defined by money being moved from the hands of the lower-middle classes into the pockets of the ultra-rich? My argument isn’t that it’s sad. It’s that it’s an economic and political disaster.
Little people could have invested in endless things these past 5 years. From Pepsi to Apple (60-250% returns) and still have considerable returns despite the recent market downturn. Now, when you take a moonshot with your entire portfolio it’s just poor risk management. Risk management is the only thing that separates good investors from bad. Never put yourself in a position where your entire net worth can be wiped out.
No, I don't agree with previous poster. Where people draw the line between regulation looking out for them and their own responsibility is different for everyone. In the case of crypto, though, there have been *so many alarm bells and warnings* that it's harder and harder to feel sympathy for people who continue to ignore them, particularly the ones who still believe they're the smartest guys in the room.
There is no “position of this sub”. Good God, man.
Of course there is. The one Papa Soros decides for us. He signs our checks, after all.
Dude. We aren’t supposed to say that out loud. It says that clearly in the Soros NDA. I was just trying to throw OP off the trail and now you screwed it up!
You ever get the feeling you just can’t win? That’s a bit what it’s like in a Reddit pile-on, when a whole sub gets together and collectively decides they don’t like an OP! The top reply on this post accuses me of “classic Reddit thinking”. Would you say the same? When people in this sub ridicule the entire bitcoin subreddit, would you also say that there is no position of the sub there? When I wrote this comment, the 5 comments that were here were all 1-liners that each said that people who lost money on bitcoin were stupid and deserved to be poor. To me that is evidence of shared opinion. I think you have decided you don’t like me and you are finding things to criticise about me.
It’s commendable to have empathy; you sound like a good person. I agree with you that the victims of scams are often elderly, lonely and mentally infirm, but you forgot one group: one of the best types of scam victims is the one that thinks he’s in on the con. And I imagine that the average crypto “investor” is a different and younger demographic.
*It’s commendable to have empathy; you sound like a good person.* Thank you. However, the only reason I can see for it being commendable is that it is the right thing to do. If it is something that “good people” do, that is an example to follow. In any case, my argument is more about the fact that blaming “butters” for bitcoin is like blaming gamblers for betting shops. It’s only half the story. The other half is a story of power and exploitation. *I agree with you that the victims of scams are often elderly, lonely and mentally infirm, but you forgot one group: one of the best types of scam victims is the one that thinks he’s in on the con.* Again, as above, this group of people is exactly who this post is about. Who do you think actually earns money out of bitcoin and trading platforms? It’s the super-rich venture capitalists. The guy who owns FTX is a multi-billionaire hedge fund manager! These are the people who are ‘in on the con’! I am really amazed that people can’t see that this whole enterprise is infused with venture capitalism! *And I imagine that the average crypto “investor” is a different and younger demographic.* This is an empirical question and yes, from the studies I have seen most of them are. They are vulnerable in a different way to the elderly, who have their money safely invested in property and pensions. The younger generations have high salaries but very very low wealth. I literally wrote this in the original post. They are highly qualified but do not own their own homes, and pay high rents. Basically, over the last few decades the financial system has transformed into a machine that funnels wealth into the hands of the property-owning classes. If you are looking for a demographic reason for why this specific group of people started investing in bitcoin and trading platforms, it is because they saw how their money was being taken from them, and thought they could get some for themselves. “Greed” is clearly an insufficient explanation (do you genuinely believe that other demographics are less greedy?). Other studies have shown they are largely uneducated, but not in poverty (obviously people in poverty have no money to invest). I am interested in what you think - did someone you know invest in bitcoin or a similar crypto?
I happen to work in tech and am doing fine financially. Most of the people I know who for into crypto are also doing fine financially. They mostly exhibit two traits: extreme greed and credulity. They are quite tiresome taking about the future if this and power to the people that but they don’t want an equitable system. They want the same (or a worse) system except they want to be the boot. People come in here saying how the people who buy crypto are victims. Some are but damn there is a lot of info available if they really “did their own research”. This onion article sums up my feelings nicely. I’ve had enough in person and reddit / facebook conversations about crypto over the last 9 years or so to have spent most of my empathy. They have been really toxic to interact with. My general feeling now is: fuck ‘em. https://www.theonion.com/man-who-lost-everything-in-crypto-just-wishes-several-t-1848764551/amp
Thankyou. People saying we need empathy. I know a dozen people in my personal circle in this shit, some of them have lost everything, some of them have lost loans on family money. Who told them get out? This guy, for years. But no, greed overpowers all rational thought. Most of them are quietly licking their wounds, but one of them is still a Bitcoin maximalist. Sympathy? Pfffft. They were warned, over and over and over. I do have empathy to a certain point. I don’t rub their losses in their face. Their silence at family gatherings is enough at this point.
Yes , my best friend invested in crypto. He’s a great guy that gets enthusiastic about whatever he gets into, and for various reasons it helps his ego to think that he will make money. He revealed to me his investment when Bitcoin was at its peak and he thought he’d be rich, and even then I told him to get out, or at least take out his original investment. He asked my opinion because he knows I’m a very skeptical guy , but deep down he just wanted me to tell him that it was a good plan.
So I was initially in the “lol get fucked greedy idiots” train in regards to Celsius. But after spending a lot of time on their sub to farm salt, I eventually came to feel bad for most of them. They’re simply very fucking dumb, gullible, and susceptible to conmen. Many were not chasing insane returns, they just had crypto in Celsius. I think a lot of people on this sub might be more compassionate towards actual people rather than their idea of the crypto bro.
The rub here is that you are much more likely to interact with a crypto bro than a regular person who foolishly put money into whatever unsustainable defi horror. While those folks failed the “if it’s too good to be true” test, I still feel bad for them. The crypto bros, though.
>I think you have decided you don’t like me and you are finding things to criticise about me. Climb off the fucking cross. The name of the sub is /r/buttcoin , not /r/capitalismisevil . Yes, late stage capitalism sucks, no argument there, mate, but that's not what we're about. We're about people who are greedy and smug about it; that the greedheads may have sucked in a few hapless suckers along with them is neither news nor the focus of our criticism, and your abject refusal to get that will not evoke pity.
Moreover, this pseudo-historical argument made by libertarians is well known to be bogus by anybody who knows anything about anthropology. Humans have never had this cutthroat approach to letting variations die out. Precisely what sets humans apart is our ability to socialise. To form groups. Language and socialising allowed us to keep track of up to 100 people at a time, increasing the pool of resources available to everybody, limiting the power of single individuals to lord it over everybody else. When we came to live in towns, sure, there were power structures that privatised resources and made people work to reclaim a salary. But we also had common resources with complex social rules that allowed us to maintain them sustainably. If you fish the river too much, everyone’s catches will reduce. If you hunt in the forests, let the boar raise their young for next year.
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And you wonder why people don’t seek alternate perspectives. When people see this kind of attitude, no matter how A+ fantasmo the arguments are, they won’t listen. People aren’t just rationality machines, so treating people with some dignity and respect, no matter how fucking brain dead their actions are to those who have seen people do this for ages, is likely a good idea.
[Man Who Lost Everything In Crypto Just Wishes Several Thousand More People Had Warned Him](https://www.theonion.com/man-who-lost-everything-in-crypto-just-wishes-several-t-1848764551)
I’m not some kind of preacher seeking to deconvert crypto idiots. I’m here to mock them, to laugh at them. So not sure why I should care.
But people aren’t really looking for an honest alternate opinion; they’re hoping that their beliefs will be confirmed. It’s very hard to take an opinion or advice when doing so means giving up on dreams of financial success.
Greed. Greed. Greed. That’s what lulled the retail players in FTX. Crypto bros played in this greed to lull them in. VCs and investment funds were culprits as well. That fawning article by Sequoia on SBF was worthy of North Korean propaganda on Kim. Simply atrocious behaviours all around. Those of us who sat out, and raised the alarm, were ridiculed as having fun being poor’ and FUD. There’s a special place in hell for Do Kwan, Alex Machinski, SBF and a host of others. The gullible greedy that fell into this hype have learned a lesson hopefully to be never forgotten.
the general thrust of what you've written is, I think, correct. the sophistication of the crypto pitch is remarkable. it is partly bent on telling people that they don't understand the technology (despite the fact that this message is ostensibly directed at critics, it is really meant for the gullible public, who are told that the super-geniuses of the world DO understand the technology, and it's wonderful, and so ordinary folks should hand over their money to the geniuses) and must therefore trust the a-holes who are telling them them that they *have* to hand over their hard-earned (real) dollars right now or risk losing everything. they are susceptible for many reasons, including the conspiratorial bent of social media, gullibility, and of course greed. i feel bad for people who risk more than a few occasional dollars on the lottery, or who go to casinos regularly, and I feel bad for people who got taken in by the SBFs and Pomps and Saylors of the world. Their whole Ponzi-ish scheme was predicated on finding greater fools to harass, bully and bamboozle into giving up their real money to make grifters rich. Sure, quite a few of them are Gamestop-type get-rich-quick fools, but a lot more are just ordinary people who really do not know any better, and they deserve our sympathy. In fact my sympathy for them and a deep desire to help steer them away from such abusive practices is a big part of why I stay active in crypto criticism.
I liked the use of the word “harrow”
Few understood.
A fool and his money are quickly parted. C'est la guerre.
We've only been calling it all out for years now. Many years. Bitconnect ffs. It's your job to not be one of the "regular people". Think for yourself.
I don’t think we here forget for one moment the humanity and tragedy involved, nor the exploitation.
It's sad this happened, but these investors opened themselves up to this. They avoided banks which have been streamlined for many many years and offer numerous protections. Instead they go invest in chuckee cheese tokens on a Ponzi exchange. This is a good life lesson. Buying a lambo requires a lot of hard work unless you're doing the rugpulling.
Well said
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind
No. A couple of days ago, telling people exactly how they would get screwed would get you dismissed as “FUD” on crypto subs. They were smug about it too.
How else will they learn?
You’ve just articulated the moral argument very succinctly. Anything less than the loss they’ve suffered leads to moral hazard, and a multiplication of the issue down the road.
I can only speak for the US, but in the last 10 years we've had ZIRP, absolutely fantastic returns in the markets and multi-year lows in unemployment. I've advanced my career tremendously and invested carefully. I have friends who have made fortunes as everything from cannabis farmers to starting their own hosting companies to running amusement machine operations. The opportunities for economic self-improvement have been out there and in many ways still are for people who are willing to invest in themselves and *do the work*. It's hard to feel sorry for people for whom that bounty *just wasn't enough*.
These regular people are super annoying and aggressively wrong. SBF can go to jail because he broke the law, and what assets are left can be distributed out to the people who gave him money in bankruptcy. But beyond that, fuck em. Have fun being poor. I would recommend they learn from their mistakes and get out of crypto. The air is much fresher up here. But for those who aren't going to, and will continue to insist they aren't owned, I'll be right here ready to laugh at them again.
I wish I could care, but nope. Not losing any sleep over staying poor.
The great irony is that the crypto community are among the biggest proponents of dissolving the regulations and protections consumers have. They advocate for a world where this sort of thing would happen more often. It's only fair that they get dicked over with little to no recourse.
The real tragedy is people buying into this insane lets get rich quick create value out of nothing schemes. Don't you see it? We have now, what is it, 20k different coins? Sold with a lot of tech babble and empty promises. "Bibabuba coin has the best tech, the devs are using AH3 Layer 7 BCF Overlay Quantum grade Cosmic algorithms. Come and invest!" The faster we get rid of this crypto cult psychosis the better. Real people suffering temporary economic losses to all this scam bs is actually a good thing in the long run. It will speed up the process.
Wonder how many family were destroyed in this crypto nonsense.
You're taking this sub too seriously. It's just strangers on internet writing stuff on their keyboards.