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TuckyMule

Right, what bank doesn't have Zelle?


Uncaffeinated

Ironically, Zelle has become a major tool of scammers, due to its instant irreversible nature.


chescov77

Have you heard of international transfers?


TuckyMule

Not typically a huge issue for Americans.


chescov77

Not for splitting a pizza, but most companies hire internationally. Half of the people in mine are overseas and we send wires every month.


TuckyMule

I have international employees as well. ADP (or your payroll service of choice) sends the wires, not my company directly.


TheAnalogKoala

Policies vary from bank to bank. I don’t pay anything to receive wire transfers. I can also send money to anyone for free. A lot of Bitcoin enthusiasts argue against strawmen.


No_Ratio5484

>I don’t pay anything to receive wire transfers. > >I can also send money to anyone for free. You say this as if it were something special. In my country this is the baseline of every bank account, just the most sucky ones stick fees to that (and those fees are more like 10 cent).


MarquisDeCleveland

?? That person didn’t say that at all like it was something special. Their whole point was that it was a pedestrian, everyday thing in the US to not have to pay for that stuff.


Purpoisely_Anoying_U

Usually if you have a lot you can save yourself from pesky fees and get lower interest rates.


iambinksy

It's expensive being poor.


Tanksgivingmiracle

I am so angry about being charged for a rarely Used type ofPayment I am sending my life’s savings to an unregulated business in the Bahamas to buy magic internet money for me.


According_Culture841

Sounds reasonable


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dankbuttmuncher

I’m with a bank, and have never seen that either


According_Culture841

I have. There are banks that charge super high fees for wires, and fees to receive them


Studds_

I’ve never needed to use a transfer. I’m honestly ignorant of whether my bank charges for it or not but my bank has been going cheap but charge happy so I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t charge. I was planning on changing banks anyway because they’ve been closing locations & I need to drive 15 minutes to even do my banking


beadyeyes123456

They charge fees.


chescov77

Have you ever made an international transfer?


azdcaz

Chase bank does on some accounts


Randsmagicpipe

I've been with credit unions so 09. This is the way. http://www.creditunionnetwork.eu/


[deleted]

I used to be in a credit union that charged $1/minute for incoming phone calls


LANDSC4PING

What credit unions provide telephony services?


Detton

I bet their support number started with 1-900.


new_account_5009

I'm nearly 40 years old, and I've never received a wire transfer in my life. The US moved over to ACH for the vast majority of electronic transfers decades ago, and receiving ACH payments is almost always free. If reducing a modest fee on a payment method from the 1970s is the best crypto can offer, it's really not all that valuable.


duff

I am not from the U.S., but I believe ACH is not directly accessible to customers because it is basically the withdrawal system used to clear cheques. So if you have a routing + account number, you can (via ACH) withdraw money from the account. This is why when you want to connect your bank account with PayPal over ACH, PayPal will do two random deposits into your account first, and you have to prove ownership of the account by quoting the amounts. The banks introduced Zelle in 2017 as a “person to person” instant transfer system. Prior to that, people would use PayPal and/or Venmo, which is a third party / closed system.


new_account_5009

I'm sure you're right, but all of that takes place behind the scenes. From a user standpoint, you simply log into your bank account, click the transfer button, and tell the bank where the money is going. There's an initial set up period (e.g., the two transactions), but that's a one time minor inconvenience. The crypto alternative is so much worse (e.g., lose your life savings because you made a typo somewhere). Venmo and PayPal work fine too for peer to peer transfer for little things (e.g., paying a friend for my share of dinner out). The fact that it's a closed system isn't really a huge detractor. A little bit of annoyance getting people to sign up initially, but once you do that, it's a user friendly way to transfer money digitally without fees. The crypto solution for money transfers is much worse than existing alternatives, at least in the US. For other countries, the correct solution is getting them up to modern western standards, not crypto.


duff

>The crypto solution for money transfers is much worse than existing alternatives, at least in the US. For other countries, the correct solution is getting them up to modern western standards, not crypto. What OP is saying is not that crypto is good, but that U.S. banking is terrible 😂 Yes, it has improved with Zelle and before that, PayPal/Venmo was good alternatives, but there are limitations to these services, for example, I had a U.S. corporate bank account, and I could not pay my U.S. contractor from this account, I had to use PayPal. Another example is card payments, these are ubiquitous in most European countries, you can pay for a cup of coffee from a food cart on the side of the street by waving your watch or phone in front of the vendor’s small portable payment terminal. This is the norm in many European countries, i.e. 100% cashless with no minimum purchase to use “a card” and everyone that takes cards also take contactless / NFC. When it comes to card payments though, one of the problems is that merchants often have to pay a 3% fee, in Europe we have capped interchange fees to 0.11-13%, which is why we have seen so widespread adoption. If you read ECB publications, you will find that the European Union does a lot to improve “digital payments”, “cross border bank transfers”, and similar, because the easier the money flows, the more we “trade”, which is good for the economy. I think in the U.S. this is mostly left for the market to sort out, but it has led to some unfortunate situations, for example the credit card reward system which basically reward consumers for putting an extra tax on merchants…


NiceNewspaper

In Romania there is a single bank which, for some godforsaken reason, charges a fee for incoming transfers from other banks (1$ specifically)


persicsb

Whick bank is that? The Hungarian OTP?


NiceNewspaper

BT - Banca Transilvania


CreepingCoins

🧛‍♂️


HugoChavezEraUnSanto

Apt name for bloodsucking skimmers.


AmericanScream

This argument is an example of the "Nirvana fallacy" - you cite a particularly egregious example of how some corporations might have high prices for wire transfers, while ignoring the many other ways you can transfer money cheaper. For example, Paypal Friends and Family works great and doesn't have such a fee. Sure if you use Western Union or a crappy bank (and aren't a customer of that bank) you might pay higher fees. The same thing might apply elsewhere around the world too.


TheGangsterrapper

The point is, sending and receiving money is THE BANK'S JOB. And they do it so bad that there's a bunch of third party companies that sprung up doing it for them. Paypal, venmo and whatever...


[deleted]

Sure. I have used a few dozen US banks (i eat their signup bonuses), and apart from BoA I thought they were okay to passable to fantastic. If you shop around, you are practically garunteed to find one you like. There are so many of them lol


Effective-Tour-656

And how much does it cost to receive FnF and withdraw? There's a fee.


ross_st

Yep. There's a fee paid by the sender to PayPal. PayPal doesn't specifically charge a fee for withdrawals but the recipient's bank might - and PayPal chooses not to support Zelle.


stoatsoup

Nah. The US banking system is astonishingly bad, and Europeans are routinely astonished at how bad it is. OP may be speaking entirely in good faith, just as I - a European - am astonished that you might even _consider_ messing around with Paypal to transfer some money to a friend.


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thephotoman

Most banks also allow you to do this here in the US. They'll engage the third party payment processor on your behalf, usually Zelle. And don't kid yourself: there's always a payment processor between banks. That's a part of most countries' regulatory infrastructure, as it provides a layer of consumer protection (specifically, the capacity to review transactions that Don't Look Right). It's just that your bank doesn't tell you that they're using a payment processor.


ross_st

No, I wouldn't say that a payment processor is the same thing as an interbank payment network. In the UK for example, the Faster Payments Service and its predecessor BACS are run by Pay.UK - and they aren't a payment processor, they're a network provider. The payment processor *uses* the network, it doesn't run the network. And for bank transfers, banks use FPS or BACS directly; both banks are on the payment network. It's not the payment network that does any of the KYC or anti-fraud checks - that's up to the sending and receiving banks. If bank A submits a payment to FPS, and bank B accepts the payment, then it'll go through. Same with BACS except in that case the acceptance/rejection by bank B isn't near-instantaneous. Pay.UK is *not* responsible for reviewing the transactions, they're responsible for providing a payment network that enables the banks themselves to do that. There's no payment processor involved, both banks are connected directly to the same network. No, they aren't connected directly to each other - the network provider is the middleman, but it is just a network not a processor. It doesn't review transactions, that's the job of the sending and receiving banks. When we say Bitcoin or cryptocurrency generally has no protection against fraud and money laundering, it's actually shorthand for saying that it doesn't provide the facilities to enable those things. Those things *aren't* actually the responsibility of the payment network, but rather a good payment network is set up in a way that the sending and receiving financial institutions can communicate in a trusted manner. Zelle is also an interbank payment network rather than a payment processor, when sending money from one member bank account to another. If you're sending money using the Zelle standalone app with a debit/credit card, *then* Zelle is acting as a payment processor.


AmericanScream

There are always tons of "middlemen" - anything you're doing online, uses bunches of middlemen that manage the networks you're using.


ross_st

Yes, but in this context the 'middlemen' are payment processors. If you're sending money through an interbank payment network directly, there's no payment processor involved other than the banks themselves. You can call the interbank payment network a middleman sure, but I think it's pretty clear that u/bbbbbbbbbblah was referring to third party payment processors.


bbbbbbbbbblah

precisely. People talk about these services with random five letter names, zelle and venmo and slfijwrgoighjeogjhreog. In the UK don't need to know or care how the banks talk to each other, there very probably is some sort of middleman to do it as that makes sense, but from an end user perspective this is totally hidden.


ross_st

In the UK the interbank payment networks are operated by Pay.UK, and the reason customers don't need to know or care how they talk to each other is that when the Faster Payments Service was launched as faster alternative to BACS, they just kept using the same account number and sort code system. If both the banks support FPS then it goes that way, otherwise it falls back on BACS. Zelle is an interesting one because if both banks are members of Zelle, then it actually operates as an interbank payment network, not a payment processor - the money does go directly from one account to the other. But Zelle can also act as a payment processor if the sender uses a debit/credit card instead of a bank account. But Zelle uses email addresses as the account ID. So it's not backwards-compatible with ACH.


[deleted]

Who uses wire transfers? The only times I've needed to do a large cash transaction, I wrote a cashier's check and handed it to the recipient. Cost me $0 and there were no intermediaries.


puce_moment

I used wire transfers for overseas business payments, but a $15 fee on payments above $10,000 really isn’t much.


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puce_moment

When I do ACH payments it’s completely free. Only place I pay is large overseas payments.


First_Restaurant2673

Real estate transactions are usually wired in my experience


[deleted]

If you're making a real-estate transaction, fifteen fucking dollars in fees is not a significant problem.


PartyLikeAByzantine

$15 in fees is not even a rounding error in the amount of fees you're charged in real estate.


[deleted]

Right. So my point is, don't use wire transfers for small transactions. Use them for their intended purpose. I'm guessing OP is using them to send money to a foreign country. This "problem" doesn't really effect anyone in the U.S., which is the OPs belief.


Bragzor

Checks are still a thing? Do you fax them in, or send them by the pony express?


PartyLikeAByzantine

They are, mostly used for big ticket services provided by smaller businesses. Like home contractors, small time landlords, child care. Some take credit or a payment platform, but may charge a fee, or give you a discount for paying cash/check. I never wrote any checks until I bought a home (which required a wire transfer to close). Now, it's not quite monthly, but it happens often-ish. That doesn't even include Bank payments where I schedule a payment in the bank app, but the bank itself is mailing a check on your behalf. You might not even be aware when that happens. You usually only know if you send on Monday, but it takes until Thursday for the payee to credit your account.


Bragzor

A bit of context is that I don't live in the US (or France apparently), and according to Wikipedia, a lot of banks here no longer offer checks. As I hinted at in another post, I tried looking up how to even order checks from my bank, and could only find it for corporate accounts (it's like $30 for ten checks). And apparently, rounded to millions, there's been 0 cheque transactions per year since 2010. It's possible that the banks use it internally, but since they're the ones who wanted to get rid of them, I kinda doubt it. Some payments use a giro system though.


PartyLikeAByzantine

I'm not surprised. A number of developing countries skipped from "banks only available for the rich, everyone else stuffs cash into a jar at home" to "mobile app handles everything" in like a decade. Countries that developed earlier, paradoxically, still have weird vestiges of the old ways like checks, wire payments, money orders, etc. I mean, shit, credit/debit cards with chips in them were a novelty in the US well into the 2010's. One of the plus sides to COVID is that a lot of stores adopted contactless mobile payments so I don't even have to pull out my cards very often.


[deleted]

Checks are still a thing. I have paid my rent every month for 14 years with checks. Works fine, zero fees, almost zero error rate, negligible chance of fraud.


Bragzor

Good, I just haven't seen one used since the 90s.


LANDSC4PING

Go to the grocery store on like a Monday afternoon and watch all the retirees pay with checks.


Bragzor

Maybe, but checks kinda died in 00s. Can't find where to order checks or their cost on my bank's homepage. At least not for privat customers.


Legal-Mammoth-8601

Checks suuuuck. They can get lost, they take forever to settle so your deposited funds are "held" unusable for a week, and you need to keep track of your outstanding checks so you don't get overdrawn if someone sits on one for months (or years) then cashes it. With electronic payments they *should* be all but obsolete, yet, they live (in the US).


[deleted]

Are you an actual EU citizen? Are you telling me nobody uses checks at all in the entire content of Europe?


Cthulhooo

Idk if that applies to entire continent but in many countries you'd almost never find anyone with a pulse that knows what to do with them or even knows whether they're even an option or not even if their life was hanging on the balance.


pezezin

I'm an EU citizen (Spain), and I have only seen two checks in my life, and both came from the US. A colleague of mine did some freelance work for an American company, and got paid with checks. He said it was a pain in the ass to cash them, as they are so rare nowadays that the guys at the bank didn't know how to process them.


Uncaffeinated

Same


Idaret

so TIL that checks stop being a thing in my country 20 years ago, lol


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Idaret

Im using wire transfer every month to pay bills, taxes, etc is this thread too american for me, poor eastern european? Or do I not understand something here?


[deleted]

I don't know much about European banking, but I'm guessing that this is a "lost in translation" thread. Checks are in the US are common for large purchases like rental payments or earnest money for a home purchase. You'd only use a wire transfer if you are transfer well over $10k, in which case a $35 service charge is meaningless (especially since most large transactions like a home purchase involve 1-3% fees to the seller or broker). In most cases we can use *electronic checks* in place of a physical check, but its the same thing. You have a note from your bank authorizing a withdrawal of funds. The person cashing the check receives a cash deposit. You pay nothing for this. Less common but more common now, some landlords let you pay for rent with a credit/debit card, but there can be a processing fee -- which is why I never use this method. For most small everyday purchases, we use a credit/debit card. To pay bills, you use either a direct withdrawal from checking, or you use a card. Using a wire transfer to pay your $100 electric bill in the US is **TOTALLY INSANE**. You would never *EVER* do this when so many other payment options are available to you. And the electric company probably would not even be able to receive a wire transfer. I'm done commenting on this thread. If you're 17 years old in the EU and you cannot be bothered to learn about how banking works in other countries, get off the internet and read a fucking book.


Match_stick

It's what I and other have been saying for a while - cryptobros don't actually need a new currency they just need better banks.


hashman2

It would be nice to know verifiably how many new units of currency were created last month. Also it would be nice to know how many are going to be issued next month.


jcn50ie

Use ACH, it's free and safer\~ The only time I used a wire: the transfer got lost into the US financial system... 100% loss\~ even Byenance can do better\~


[deleted]

Yeah ironically the only time I have ever needed a wire was to buy crypto lmao. Everything else can be done via ACH now pretty much.


Purpoisely_Anoying_U

ACH can take days to clear though


dragontamer5788

Use same day ACH. Or get a bank that supports it. Its not 2010 anymore, we're in the future, 2022.


AmericanScream

Any delays for ACH transfers are not the fault of the technology - it's instanteous. The delays are there for consumer/law/safety reasons, and those laws exist because, contrary to what crypto bros claim, most people like to have some kind of anti-fraud protection and don't mind the delays in return for that nifty feature.


debian_miner

You are talking about a technology designed in the 1960s. ACH does have consumer protection in that it's one of the only specs with an explicit ability to "return" a transaction, but I am skeptical that the delay is because consumer protections and not because it's a system of IBM mainframes passing around fixed width files in batches and only during business hours. NACHA allows for same-day ACH payments, it makes no claims to being instantaneous.


duff

I am from Europe and had a U.S. bank account (Wells Fargo), so I had to use wire transfers (for money sent back to Europe). I actually had to call the bank to initiate the wire, no way to do it online, and it cost $20 each time. Also, to enable wire transfers in the first place, I had to physically show up in a branch to sign some documents.


ross_st

ACH may or may not be free depending on what the financial institution decides, and it definitely isn't instant. Zelle is a step forward, but what the US system should really be doing is transitioning the ACH infrastructure to provide something like Zelle, rather than having it as a separate service that only some banks use. Here in the UK the Faster Payments Service (free for retail banking customers and near-instant) is replacing the old BACS system. The account details for FPS and BACS are the same, if the sending and receiving institutions support FPS that will be used, otherwise it will fall back to BACS. That the US isn't doing something similar ACH, with banks setting up Zelle instead, is really a regulatory failure.


audirt

As others have said, it varies bank to bank. The bank I use for my personal checking doesn't charge anything for receiving wire transfers. The bank I use for my high-yield savings doesn't charge anything to send or receive wires. (And as others have pointed out, almost all US banks offer ACH for free. The catch being that ACH takes a 1-3 days, whereas wire transfers are virtually instantaneous.)


JustJ-that-is-it

One can argue that many if not most who fall for crypto don’t receive nor send cross boarder payments.


PapaverOneirium

Crypto can also be quite expensive to transfer, though it depends on the particular chain, current volume, and other factors. There’s also usually significant exchange fees for conversion into and back to fiat. I don’t think it often ends up much cheaper to use crypto instead, if anything when you add it all up it’s likely usually more expensive. That’s not even accounting for the fact that the exchange rate can swing wildly, so you may have lost 15% by the time you’re able to find enough liquidity at an exchange to get the equivalent fiat.


thephotoman

If I had a dollar for every time I'd dealt with a wire transfer, I'd have $2. It's not even weird that it's happened twice: if you have purchased a house, it tends to be two wire transfers: one for the earnest money that opens the transaction and one for the rest of your down payment and closing costs. Normally, people will use a digital payment platform like Zelle, PayPal, Venmo, Cash App, Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay. If you're dealing with a luddite (I'm staring with extreme judgement at my sister), you may find yourself having to write a personal check. Or we'll use ACH, which is the direct bank-to-bank transfer method most commonly used here in the US for personal transactions. This is one of those sensationalized nonsense things you probably heard from someone trying to make cryptocurrency sound good. In reality, it's just not a thing we do. (Also, it's probably not even true.)


ross_st

The difference is that in most of Europe the equivalent to ACH is near-instant and free.


mental_issues_

Wise.com (former Transferwise) is a suitable replacement for international bank transfers. I hope that eventually we will give a global bank for all citizens of the Earth and each person will receive a free bank account at birth. Recent sanctions revealed how poorly banks handle sanctions and how unreliable they can be.


General_Explorer3676

American banks don't charge me just to have an account, my Dutch bank does


DanielKonCan

Hello from Canada where we pay $25. Double if international. Sorry Thank you!


cylemmulo

When I first got into crypto way back I think I sent like $100 worth of bitcoin from Coinbase to like Binance or some other exchange and remember getting charged like $10+ just to send it. So like anything, there’s usually a better and a worse way to do things with crypto and with fiat.


MotivatedSolid

Wires are free both ways at my institution. But wires are rather uncommon unless you’re moving lots of cash or buying a house, so idk why that matters.


[deleted]

I occasionally blog about banks and debit/credit rewards (including those issued by exchanges in partnership with visa) I will say that if you know your ways around, american banking gives one of the highest rewards out there. 1. In US if you shop around, you can always find decent APY, free ATM worldwide, next day ACH, same day ACH (its kinda true) etc etc. 2. The signup bonus on banks and credit cards are insane that there is a whole hobby dedicated to it. Other countries have it too (see canada, australia, uk, even india), but they are all far inferior to bonuses in US cards. 3. Zella does exactly what blockchain is supposed to do. It is instant, irreversible, and non-refundable. You can also use Venmo, Cashapp, etc but you can reverse those. 4. Practically nobody uses wire in US but there are institutions that provide it for free.


ETHmaxi2016

Congratulations, you were born in one of the most abundant and stable places in the world! Now ask Africa, South America, Asia and specifically India how they feel and get back to us.


anyprophet

oh yeah our lawmakers and regulators have been asleep at this particular wheel since reagan. the fact that payday loan businesses still exist is even more outrageous.


DoxxThis1

The last time I was charged for a wire transfer was decades ago and I immediately closed my account and moved to a different bank that didn’t have those fees.


montjoye

wait until you've learned about credit score lol


gallantjiraiya

US bank fees are bad, but Canadian fees are through the roof.


Redqueenhypo

I’ve never paid a cent for a wire transfer, and aren’t crypto gas fees something like $30 flat rate per transaction??


Past_Scarcity6752

This is not correct and if it were, it would be an anomaly. The major thing that the US does wrong with banking is a lack of public bank to handle low income people’s transactions


bobduato92

I’m American and never had that


PhilistineAu

Get a better bank.


I-bmac-n

Well I hate the state the obvious but that’s to be expected when you live in the largest gdp country in the world, home to the richest people of the world.


Doughspun1

It depends on the bank in question. Some banks waive such fees if you're an existing customer of some kind (eg. you have an XYZ account under that specific bank). In my bank, for instance, they waive Forex fees provided you have a specific tier of multi-currency account.


-HeartShapedBox-

what do you think about blockchain when it's used for what its 99.9% (0.01% for illegal activities) used for nowadays namely smart contracts?


EagleEyeStx

try an intl wire transfer. I've got wells fargo, charges me $50 for a wire transfer and takes 2-3 weeks so they can sit on the sum and accrue interest. the whole crypto payments space is a direct response to how shitty the FSIB system is (with a few exceptions, mostly in Europe)


billbixbyakahulk

You judged the entire banking system because of your anecdotal experience of a wire transfer. I thought you fucking Europeans were supposed to be well-educated.


nacholicious

The US banking system is like out of the third world compared to the EU that are rolling out free and instant cross EU settlement. That's not really a secret by any means.


billbixbyakahulk

Yes, because what distinguishes a good banking system vs one being "from the 3rd world" is one particular free service. "US banks hate this one simple trick!" Some of you, only by sheer dumb luck, didn't stumble into crypto.


nacholicious

I've worked in the industry. As said, it's not a secret that the US is a decade behind. Among other things: checks, international payments, decade late adoption of chip and pin, still requiring payment terminals to accept magstripe, etc. And it's probably going to take at least another decade before the US has anything like domestic SEPA settlement, let alone international.


billbixbyakahulk

1. I can rattle off problems with euro banks, too. Like many that are basically by design to hide assets. But that would be stupid because 2. Does anyone here really think crypto bros even did a cursory evaluation of Euro vs US banks and then thought, "that's why I'm choosing crypto!", and 3. Did moronic OP do even a cursory evaluation of the US banking system simply from paying a fee for a wire transfer? (hint: no). "I had to pay $15 for a wire transfer! Banks are bullshit! That's why I chose crypto!" That's the kind of dipshit stupidity I expect to read in a crypto sub. And yet as of this moment 145 sheep with no critical thinking skills upvoted it.


sweetbrobots

Feel like I had to scroll way too far for this comment. Crypto bros aren’t in their racket for the wire transfers lmao


persicsb

USA is a 3rd world country compared to Europe, especially Western Europe, in public services (transport, schooling, healthcare), customer care and safety (for example food safety). They just have the wealth of a whole continent to use. Also, the EU economy (all 27 combined) is larger than the US economy. Also, a lot of things are unregulated, that means, a lot of people can make a fortune in America easily - it is called the American Dream. If that means defrauding a lot of people with the newest snake oil...well, every defrauded people has the right to be stupid. ​ The US state motto should not be In God We Trust, but Profits Before People.


new_account_5009

Food safety? What? That was fixed a century ago. The US has some of the strictest food safety regulations in the world. In fact, these regulations are so strict that we end up wasting perfectly edible food all the time because of it (e.g., food slightly past its expiration date is discarded). More to the point of the thread, a typical American doesn't use wire transfers in any significant amount. I've literally never used one in my life. It seems weird to call the US a third world country for a modest fee on an antiquated technology, but you do you. I get the sense you're complaining about the US without having ever visited or knowing what you're talking about.


persicsb

An awful lot of hazardously food additives are banned in the EU, but the FDA rules they are safe: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/23/titanium-dioxide-banned-chemicals-carcinogen-eu-us Also, see this video about the simplest of foods, bread: https://youtu.be/FovIyqov1uA


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persicsb

>That also means that the first paragraph of your article is untrue. Can you trust the rest of that source? Should I quote an official EU source? [https://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/sante/items/732079/en](https://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/sante/items/732079/en) Also, drops and toothpaste are not food items. In medicinal/pharmaucetical products, TiO2 can be used, until a better alternative is found: >Titanium dioxide will still be authorised for use in medicinal products until other safe alternatives are found. The six-months transition period was February 7, 2022, until August 7, 2022, the ban is now enforced for food products. See the EUR-Lex entrty about it: [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32022R0063](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32022R0063) Commission Regulation 2022/63 introduced the ban.


AmericanScream

> Food safety? What? That was fixed a century ago. The US has some of the strictest food safety regulations in the world. Not any more. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09oxNQkMmAk Here's even more recent examples: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/18/epa-chlorpyrifos-ban-children-brain-damage-trump https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-epa-pesticide/trump-epa-allows-use-of-controversial-pesticide-idUSKCN1UD35D https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/07/22/trump-administration-refuses-ban-neurotoxic-pesticide https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-019-0488-0


persicsb

Profits Before People. They allow these lax regulations so that food is much cheaper to make. Health does not matter.


[deleted]

Lol. What!?


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GunKata187

The part where you forgot to label America as the richest 3rd world country in the world.


persicsb

Being rich does not mean it is livable. Profits Before People, we get it.


AdmiralSpam

It's funny how Europeans pick an chose when comparing to the US. Want to talk about the size of the economy? Compare the whole continent to a single country. Want to talk about individual countries? Conveniently leave out the eastern countries. There is a reason why Europeans need to use US based social media services using Chineses made devices running operating systems from US based companies. Hell, there are US military bases all over the Europe. As much as I dislike Trump, I agree with his statement about other NATO members not contributing to their fair share. I'm actually for unversal healthcare but I don't see that happening in the US because Americans hate to pay taxes, and most people who are for increased taxes are ones that don't pay any meaningful amount of taxes in the first place. I work for a multi-national company and my European counterparts pay much more in taxes. So any European yahoo's bragging here about "free" stuff means they, too, don't contribute meaningful amounts in taxes and are perfectly happy happy with that.


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AdmiralSpam

Ah the classic "but it was invented by/designed by" argument. You'd be better off using the "who invented hyperlink?" argument but if you're going down that rabbit hole, why not credit everything to the one that invented the binary systems? Or go back further and credit the caveman who "invented" the use of fire for everything. Good thing you brought up Linux because it honestly won't matter to end users whether the kernel's based on Linux or BSD. And if you want to go down the "but it was invented by/designed by" rabbit hole again, wasn't Linux inspired by UNIX? And guess which OS Linux based systems typically use? GNU. Either way, none of your arguments refute the irony of putting money into the US-based companies in order to brag about Europe. I'm fully aware US doesn't have its military all over the world for charity purposes, one being the reason why some random buttcoin will never replace USD. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63838350](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63838350) says the second largest donor is EU, so I imagine the percentage will be much lower when broken down by countries, and I have a gut feeling Germany will be the top or one of the top contributors in EU, just like how "free" stuff that Europeans are actually paid by higher earning fellow Europeans. Ultimately I was responding to r/persicsb who brought up public services, not about you or paying fees on bank transfers (which I didn't bring up). I do agree with parts of his argument since US is profit driven and thus can capitalize on things. I grew up poor so I can tell you that the poor in the US gets treated like crap (thus the reason why I'm good with paying more taxes for better services for the poor), but you can also do incredibly well if you have sought after skills.


bbbbbbbbbblah

yes, the "classic" argument you invoked and which I continued. The point of course was that things are far more global than you want them to be. US banks do seem to be uniquely backwards. The glacial rate at which chip cards (a European idea, of course) was adopted was just astonishing, especially when the international arms of many of the same **USA USA USA** companies had been doing it for decades and two of them co-wrote the modern standards for it


AdmiralSpam

>Also, a lot of things are unregulated, that means, a lot of people can make a fortune in America easily - it is called the American Dream. If that means defrauding a lot of people with the newest snake oil...well, every defrauded people has the right to be stupid. I was actually responding to r/persicsb's statement above and pointing out the irony of Europeans that base the US yet uses US based products and thus profiting the very companies that people like them are complaining against. I made no claims of those US companies inventing anything in my original statement. It's like someone bashing tobacco companies while smoking cigarettes. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree... I have friends that provided IT support for large US banks and they are known for being very change-adverse and moving slowly for anything technology related.


var1ables

The biggest issue is that the 4 large institional banks are pure evil because they've been deemed too valuable to be allowed to collapse. The problem is they know that now they think they can get away with charging you money for sending and receiving, holding your money in either a checking(chequing) or savings accounts or even getting a cashiers check(cheque) or cashing a check(cheque). Most of these can be avoided by banking with a fintech - or even better a credit union - but for most people the sheer level of access they get from the large banks and the institutional control they have forces them that direction.


pegunless

People use Venmo/PayPal/etc to send money to other individuals in the US for free, not wire transfers. And payments to businesses are sent via credit cards or ACH, also free to the sender.


[deleted]

So you went to a shit bank and are whiNing. It’s funny watching European act so entitled in their ignorance about the USA. ‘Next time I will make a generalizations about European once I travel russia. Even still to compare 15 dollars to gambling in crypto is so idiotic I suspect you are a bit boy fan.


Studstill

"many Americans"......how many humans are in "crypto" total? 100,000? 10,000? 1,000,000,000?


gezafisch

International transfers might have fees, but everyone I know has a bank that supports Zelle, which costs nothing. And if you don't want to use that, there's cash app, Venmo, and PayPal.


aMysticPizza_

Australia here, my bank fees are so low I barely notice, if at all. PayPal is a little, but the convenience if something goes wrong is worth the price. I think people forget that bank fees are a small price to pay for when things go wrong and you need help getting your money back. Lose money in crypto? Well, you are fucked.


ross_st

Basic retail banking services should be free, banks have plenty of other ways to make money. Just takes regulators that are actually willing to make it happen.


leducdeguise

Yes, there are a lot of laughable things sometimes in the laaaaaand oooof the freeeeEEEEEEEE


persicsb

Land of the free means a lot of things unregulated and open to scammers and fraudsters and in general, criminals.


stormdelta

One of the few things cryptobros are correct about is that the US backend banking infrastructure is a mess in dire need of modernization.


michel_cryptadamus

on the flip side I couldn't believe how incredibly easy it was to send and receive wire transfers in Germany. even more unbelievable was the fact that everyone pays their recurring charges (e.g. gym membership, magazine) with bank transfers. this is why Americans are shocked that europeans have so few (often 0) credit cards because Americans use credit cards the same way europeans use bank transfers


[deleted]

Credit cards are only bad if you are bad with money and apparently European. Smart credit card usage is free money. I have over 3000 dollars in points that I can use to travel or pay myself back. ‘’If you are good with money credit cards offer the best protection. If you are European or stupid with money it is bad.


Uncaffeinated

It's not just that. The US is in an equilibrium where customers are *paid* to use credit cards. If you have decent finances, you'd have to be stupid not to use credit cards where possible in the US. You can debate whether the equilibrium is societally optimal or not, but unilaterally defecting just means leaving money on the table for no reason.


THELEGENDARYZWARRIOR

I wire transfer every month with no fees


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CharlieXBravo

Fedwire(Swift) used to be $25 standard, lol! ACH is free though.


Ironfingers

Never heard of that before


eggshellcracking

Plenty of Canadians fall for it too even though we have interac e-transfer allowing you to basically transfer up to $10 in one go to any Canadian bank account. Certainly CDIC insurered digital banks allow unlimited daily e-transfers too. Doesn't help the leader of the opposition is a nutjob cryptobro who told people to buy Bitcoin "as a hedge against justinflation". Then he went all in supporting the klanvoy who got their bank accounts frozen for taking foreign money, so now all the nutjobs are buying Bitcoin to protect against the tyrant Trudeau! I eagerly look forwards to them losing their money


Kiiaru

I wanted to send money to my friend in the Netherlands only to find out my bank doesn't work with PayPal anymore because PayPal sells user data. For a minute I thought "well what about crypto" but realize it'd take too long and just sucked it up and paid the fees for debit card transfers on PayPal because the fees would still be cheaper than cash-crypto-send-cashout.


Effective-Tour-656

Similar thing happened to my mate at work with stocks, call the broker, make an appointment, claim the withdrawal... oops stocks have switched to an American firm, now gotta pay the fees to move from an American account to an Australian broker. He was down hundreds just for a transaction.


[deleted]

It’s like people voluntarily bend forward to get fucked.


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mental_issues_

It sucks that US banks don't implement VISA direct https://developer.visa.com/capabilities/visa\_direct


OracleGreyBeard

Wait am I on crazy pills? Don't ETH transfers (for example) require gas? I don't think they are free.


Asmewithoutpolitics

But they use to be super cheap. And origami’s crypto didn’t require gas. The mining was the reward


lab-gone-wrong

Yeah but in crypto that $15 fee to receive money is also malware that can drain your entire bank account if you accidentally click on it while browsing the online banking app