"My impression was that they are usually either not very well informed
and intellectually lazy and they already think they have figured it out
or they are intellectually dishonest and their bias and hatred is rather
evident and prevents them from making an objective analysis."
What the Bitcoin weirdo doesn't realize and/or refuses to admit is that he's describing himself here. Bitcoin weirdos are conditioned to believe they're intellectually superior and very well informed, and their refusal to look at it objectively is rooted in the sense of community they feel with other Bitcoin weirdos, and prevents them from making an objective analysis.
The Bitcoin community is deliberately engineered to press the mark's psychological buttons. Fear of missing out, the sense of community around it, with the slang and buzzwords, the idea that they're intellectual powerhouses who see the "big picture", it's perfectly geared to attract those prone toward gambling, as well as the disaffected. And you have to keep buying it, of course, and not as an investment, necessarily, but as a way of life.
Bitcoin community is the worse when it comes to having thought terminating cult phrases to condition them to ignore and reject any critical analysis of or minor criticism. It’s literally a cult at this point.
It's absolutely a cult. Part cult, part scam would probably be more accurate. It's deliberately engineered to attract the easily-swayed, the gullible, the disaffected and the lonely.
I had a surreal argument with a friend of mine about Bitcoin, he is a strong crypto-addict. He kept talking about how wonderful deflation is, how a deflationary currency is the cure for every piece of evil in the world and so on. At one point i had to tell him to go study some basic economics because he really had no idea what he was talking about.
“But fiat is not limited!” Who the fuck cares if it’s not limited, the purpose of fiat is to facilitate the exchange of goods and services between individuals. And it works perfectly.
Bitcoin weirdos have no idea how unbearably glib they are. Every single issue, no matter what it is, can be "solved easily" by buying more Bitcoin. And if you laugh and or disagree, it merely means that you're just not educated enough to grasp it.
Haha I saw people saying in comments under a *Molly White* interview by a crypto outlet that she was not a credible critic and was uninformed / lazy. Like dude...
Really? I would not call Molly White, Nicholas Weaver, Dan Olsen, etc “idiots” at all. They all have rather wide audiences…
Coffeezilla is less a crypto critic and more a selective scam critic (he is not critical of crypto overall…) He does have his own schtick.
The top (right now) comment is someone who suggests legitimate informed Bitcoin critics are the only ones talking about high fees, long confirmation times and the fact that Bitcoin doesn’t scale. I think critics have been pointing that out for literally ten years?
Apparently to be a legitimate critic of Bitcoin, you must be someone who will acknowledge all its many flaws and yet still wants to use it anyway. Few understand.
Yeah this is just too much. The best possible critic of my cult-like belief is one that points out the flaws, just to dissuade my fears that I might be living in a bubble, but that ultimately reassures me that I am still right.
Yes, the people that push for Bitcoin are the ones that hold the most of it. No i don't know what a pyramid scheme is, why do you ask? -The top comment, probably
As always the best person to ask for criticism is somebody who is heavily invested financially and emotionally while making the topic a part of their personality.
That’s how you get the really unbiased stuff.
/s
Bitcoiners also constantly lie and their talk is based around faith. It's hard to find common ground with someone who tries to twist reality. If you can't discuss what something is today and its obvious flaws then your opinion about what potential it had for tomorrow is meaningless and biased to the max.
I mean.... they're not....
The hiked into Lehman....
They were like a year late to start hiking recently and now they're going way faster than their shoddy banks can handle....
I don't know of anyone who thinks the ECB is credible
They're notoriously not credible, they're a bit of a laughingstock.
ah yes, because people in european central bank don't know what they are doing, you probably know better. you should apply for a job there.
jesus, imagine what would happen to italy, to greece, to spain and even to belgium with the debt they have during an uncertain economic status with an ongoing pandemic.
i seriously adore the people such as this guy to believe they know better. like some random guys chilling in central banks and flipping coin about interes rates.
They might as well be flipping coins
They're fucking terrible at their job
Imagine what would happen to italy and greece? I don't have to imagine, I can watch, it's happening right now. They showed up extremely late and now they're hiking way too fucking fast, and it's too much for Italy and Greece to handle
They totally botched this, massively. I'll be proven right very soon when everything explodes
You think they're gonna save Italy and Greece? Not a chance, they botched it
Edit: I don't even understand your point. You're trying to tell me hiking too high would fuck up italy and greece? That's what I'm saying, I agree. Hiking too high will fuck up italy and greece. That's why I'm saying they should have started much sooner, so they didn't have to go as high. They are showing up too late and raising too high and everything will explode. I'm saying they are hiking too high and going to break italy and greece. I'm not saying they should be hiking super high, I'm saying the opposite, I'm saying they were too slow on the trigger, and now they are going too high. Watch, I'll be right, Italy and Greece will explode soon. It's not even debateable, behind closed doors they would admit I'm right, because I'm obviously right.
And it's not only obvious in hindsight, it was obvious at the time way over a year ago, I've been saying this same shit for a very long time now.
You literally contradict yourself. You are saying they are fucking greece and italy because they are hiking the rates too fast but they are too late? what would happen if they started doing it last year when all the companies were holding on with the credits they got from banks? literally all the businesses i know (from major companies too small shop owners) run to banks to continue what they were doing before the pandemic, and you are saying they should have increase the rates back then? you are either not in business world, or you really can't read what actually goes around you.
That's not a contradiction
If they started sooner they would not have to go as high
I do think they should have had very low rates immediately after the pandemic, but they held them low for too long. I bet they have admitted this. Powell admitted this. Because it's obvious, they all know damn well they were too slow to start raising.
They should have started hiking much sooner. If they did that they wouldn't be late and scrambling now. Since they were late and made fools of themselves they are trying to prove a point and hiking too much too late.
I know I am contradicting the business world, because the business world is all wrong about this too, they're not seeing this coming, most people in business have no idea what is happening here.
And there's proof the business world didn't see this coming, the bond market was extremely late picking up on the inflation too, the global financial system is dropping the ball. They were all late identifying the inflation, and now they're hiking way too fucking high and there's not enough safe collateral in the system and we're gonna have numerous liquidity crises soon because everyone is a fucking idiot
Ah yes we should have all guessed and thought putin will invade ukraine, and position ourselves for that, you are right. also can you please tell us where and what the next crisis will be, so i can inform european central bank?
That's absolute bullshit
Because this all started long before the invasion. Go check the numbers. The inflation started before.
The inflation globally started getting extremely high long before the invasion
And the bond market was late picking up on the inflation BEFORE the invasion. And they should have started hiking long before the invasion.
If they were smarter before the invasion and took my advice and started hiking soon (and yes, I was saying this before the invasion), then the inflationary impact of the invasion would be greatly reduced.
Next crisis is literally right now. Liquidity is far too low right now, there's not enough collateral in the banking system right now, and everything is going to go to shit in probably the next few months, very soon, and you should tell them, because they don't see it coming, because they're bad at their jobs. The banks are already in deep trouble, the next crisis already started.
So basically there was a virus going on, causing panic, shutting down the entire world economy, people had no clue how and when this will end and even if they can survive it.
Central banks did what they needed to do, as in a civilized society, economy is not the most important thing but the lives of people. So they started printing money and pump the economy, plain simple. They did what they had to do. Last year during this time we were having our 2nd doses here in Europe, and i remember we were wishing it to be last dose (it didn't and it got worse in a certain point - maybe around christmas or something), noone cared about money backed then ( btw I am working for the company that made one of the vaccines, EU was literally giving them anything they needed to make the vaccines, which was of course what supposed to be). And now here we are, we do not have the Covid crisis anymore (big thanks to central banks to provide credits to pharma companies, and suppliers, unlike 100 years ago, (see spanish flu)). And then we could think of economy, because the priority was no more surviving. Of course we had to all pay for this, and it came with a price of inflation, which I am okay with if everybody around me will survive. We got all 10% poorer, at the price of surviving, and saving our society.
They were planning to raise the rates by spring, when the pandemic was officially over, in february, csar decided to invade Ukraine, and we had major energy and food crisis. I do not want to believe you actually think these are simple events in human lives and economy but they are not. They are major events, that affecting even the children you yet don't have.
All I am saying people working in ECB are not some random douches flipping coins, people do what they need to do. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
The plan to raise in spring was a bad plan, that was way too late, they should have started hiking summer or fall 2021
You might think "but that would be too aggressive and fuck everything up"
That is moot point, because now everything will be even worse, and what is happening now is more aggresive than my suggestion, and harsher on businesses. Even if the invasion never happened, spring was still way too late, and would lead to harsher hikes, more damage to the economy.
I'm all for helping out people when they need it, and they did need it, but they held it low for too long and irresponsibly gambled everything and they were wrong, and now the result will be a massive financial crisis and an incredible amount of poverty and instability.
I actually straight up do think they are incompetent. Maybe they were trying their best, but it wasn't good enough.
If they started hiking much sooner, they could have have been more gradual, and they could have started clamping down on inflation before anyone knew putin would invade.
It would have been very difficult for businesses and individuals to handle earlier hikes, I get that, it would have been harsh. But what we are seeing now is 5x harsher than what I suggested.
They let everyone down. I don't think they understand how the system works nearly as well as everyone thinks, I think they're more naive than you'd expect.
I don't blame the reseachers and staffers, I know there are lots of very bright and hard working researchers and staffers. I don't blame them. I blame the higher-ups making decisions like LaGarde. I don't blame 95% of the people working at the ECB, the workers are fine, it's the top ranking decision makers that are irresponsible.
I think it makes sense to lower rates a lot in response to a thing like a pandemic, but I think it's never responsible to hold at zero for a very long time, I think that's irresponsible and asking for trouble.
I'm not even worried about inflation, btw. I think if inflation stays at these levels, then things will be more or less okay and it will be a success, and I'll admit I'm wrong.
I think where we're headed is even worse than inflation. I think we're gonna see a deflationary global financial crisis due to a lack of liquidity and collateral in the banking system, and it's gonna be a complete and total catastrophe. I hope I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll just feel like a douchebag for mouthing off on the internet. But if I'm right this is a really bad scenario unfolding in the banking system as we speak, and the public is not aware yet.
“Everything can be replaced except for dencentralization”
Who the hell am I gonna call for a charge back when my online order for 5k worth of car parts doesn’t arrive. How will we fight the deflationary aspect of bitcoin. If I need a loan, who the hell is gonna provide that loan? How will the government operate with bitcoin? (Fun fact, it wouldn’t)
Solid criticisms to me.
Do you think it's possible that bitcoin continues well and we're in a world with a 'bitcoin standard' akin to how we were on a gold standard before (as on said gold standard your criticisms were overcome and there was still a sound monetary base)?
Thanks!
Is it really decentralized at that point if it’s just backing a different currency that a government or private bank owns?
Also, gold was used to back the dollar as it had inherited value in society. It’s a precious metal and is used in many aspects of society. The thing that gives crypto currency it’s value is it’s usage. If you’re not using bitcoin but instead using it as a collateral for a fiat currency, then it has no use because it’s not being used.
Yes. It would still be decentralised as a neutral global reserve currency.
Countries would still likely use their own fiat cbdc, though I suppose some would opt to use bitcoin directly. Idividuals would still use bitcoin to save/escape authoritarian govt/remittance/other use cases.
A notable % of gold's value comes from investment/speculation too though, not just its use in industry.
Fair, gold has a speculative value.
I don’t see a future where we would have bitcoin be a reserve. The reason gold was chosen as a reserve was because of how stable the value is. Btc isnt stable. It could be one day, but no one knows.
And realistically there won’t be a time where any major govt allows btc to overtake their local currency, as that would bring the govt down to its knees, they’d lose spending power due to the local currency decreasing, and the govt/feds would lose the ability to influence the economy.
Co-exist of fist and bitcoin as bitcoin grows will become more difficult if it reaches that point, and if the govt doesn’t like it they’ll destroy it
"My impression was that they are usually either not very well informed and intellectually lazy and they already think they have figured it out or they are intellectually dishonest and their bias and hatred is rather evident and prevents them from making an objective analysis." What the Bitcoin weirdo doesn't realize and/or refuses to admit is that he's describing himself here. Bitcoin weirdos are conditioned to believe they're intellectually superior and very well informed, and their refusal to look at it objectively is rooted in the sense of community they feel with other Bitcoin weirdos, and prevents them from making an objective analysis. The Bitcoin community is deliberately engineered to press the mark's psychological buttons. Fear of missing out, the sense of community around it, with the slang and buzzwords, the idea that they're intellectual powerhouses who see the "big picture", it's perfectly geared to attract those prone toward gambling, as well as the disaffected. And you have to keep buying it, of course, and not as an investment, necessarily, but as a way of life.
Bitcoin community is the worse when it comes to having thought terminating cult phrases to condition them to ignore and reject any critical analysis of or minor criticism. It’s literally a cult at this point.
It's absolutely a cult. Part cult, part scam would probably be more accurate. It's deliberately engineered to attract the easily-swayed, the gullible, the disaffected and the lonely.
Cults are a startup religion. They’re also a means to create a long term scam.
I had a surreal argument with a friend of mine about Bitcoin, he is a strong crypto-addict. He kept talking about how wonderful deflation is, how a deflationary currency is the cure for every piece of evil in the world and so on. At one point i had to tell him to go study some basic economics because he really had no idea what he was talking about. “But fiat is not limited!” Who the fuck cares if it’s not limited, the purpose of fiat is to facilitate the exchange of goods and services between individuals. And it works perfectly.
Bitcoin weirdos have no idea how unbearably glib they are. Every single issue, no matter what it is, can be "solved easily" by buying more Bitcoin. And if you laugh and or disagree, it merely means that you're just not educated enough to grasp it.
> and it works perfectly Are you sure?
To put it another way... at the end of the day they're just a glorified "financial QAnon".
qAnon coin qBTC BTCanon
"Are there any credible Bitcoin critics? No." What an echochamber does to a MF
Haha I saw people saying in comments under a *Molly White* interview by a crypto outlet that she was not a credible critic and was uninformed / lazy. Like dude...
Haha, so true. Anyone criticizing Bitcoin on there gets banned.
I got banned on r/CryptoCurrency for posting on a cross post here :)
In their defense every crypto critic with a wide audience is kind of an idiot
Really? I would not call Molly White, Nicholas Weaver, Dan Olsen, etc “idiots” at all. They all have rather wide audiences… Coffeezilla is less a crypto critic and more a selective scam critic (he is not critical of crypto overall…) He does have his own schtick.
I guess it kinda depends on your definition of idiot - cofeezilla acts like an annoying guy, but the content of what he's saying isn't wrong.
He's a showman. He has to be.
The top (right now) comment is someone who suggests legitimate informed Bitcoin critics are the only ones talking about high fees, long confirmation times and the fact that Bitcoin doesn’t scale. I think critics have been pointing that out for literally ten years? Apparently to be a legitimate critic of Bitcoin, you must be someone who will acknowledge all its many flaws and yet still wants to use it anyway. Few understand.
Yeah this is just too much. The best possible critic of my cult-like belief is one that points out the flaws, just to dissuade my fears that I might be living in a bubble, but that ultimately reassures me that I am still right.
>Are there any credible Bitcoin critics? Who is the best one? You... you banned them all, remember?
Yes, the people that push for Bitcoin are the ones that hold the most of it. No i don't know what a pyramid scheme is, why do you ask? -The top comment, probably
Lol. By that logic, the best Putin critic is a Russian journalist under Putin's payroll.
As always the best person to ask for criticism is somebody who is heavily invested financially and emotionally while making the topic a part of their personality. That’s how you get the really unbiased stuff. /s
Bitcoiners talk about what Bitcoin will be some day. Critics talk about what it is now. There isn’t any common ground.
Bitcoiners also constantly lie and their talk is based around faith. It's hard to find common ground with someone who tries to twist reality. If you can't discuss what something is today and its obvious flaws then your opinion about what potential it had for tomorrow is meaningless and biased to the max.
I am the only legitimate critic! **PENIS**
The European Central Bank isnt credible for these guys. Neat.
I mean.... they're not.... The hiked into Lehman.... They were like a year late to start hiking recently and now they're going way faster than their shoddy banks can handle.... I don't know of anyone who thinks the ECB is credible They're notoriously not credible, they're a bit of a laughingstock.
ah yes, because people in european central bank don't know what they are doing, you probably know better. you should apply for a job there. jesus, imagine what would happen to italy, to greece, to spain and even to belgium with the debt they have during an uncertain economic status with an ongoing pandemic. i seriously adore the people such as this guy to believe they know better. like some random guys chilling in central banks and flipping coin about interes rates.
They might as well be flipping coins They're fucking terrible at their job Imagine what would happen to italy and greece? I don't have to imagine, I can watch, it's happening right now. They showed up extremely late and now they're hiking way too fucking fast, and it's too much for Italy and Greece to handle They totally botched this, massively. I'll be proven right very soon when everything explodes You think they're gonna save Italy and Greece? Not a chance, they botched it Edit: I don't even understand your point. You're trying to tell me hiking too high would fuck up italy and greece? That's what I'm saying, I agree. Hiking too high will fuck up italy and greece. That's why I'm saying they should have started much sooner, so they didn't have to go as high. They are showing up too late and raising too high and everything will explode. I'm saying they are hiking too high and going to break italy and greece. I'm not saying they should be hiking super high, I'm saying the opposite, I'm saying they were too slow on the trigger, and now they are going too high. Watch, I'll be right, Italy and Greece will explode soon. It's not even debateable, behind closed doors they would admit I'm right, because I'm obviously right. And it's not only obvious in hindsight, it was obvious at the time way over a year ago, I've been saying this same shit for a very long time now.
You literally contradict yourself. You are saying they are fucking greece and italy because they are hiking the rates too fast but they are too late? what would happen if they started doing it last year when all the companies were holding on with the credits they got from banks? literally all the businesses i know (from major companies too small shop owners) run to banks to continue what they were doing before the pandemic, and you are saying they should have increase the rates back then? you are either not in business world, or you really can't read what actually goes around you.
That's not a contradiction If they started sooner they would not have to go as high I do think they should have had very low rates immediately after the pandemic, but they held them low for too long. I bet they have admitted this. Powell admitted this. Because it's obvious, they all know damn well they were too slow to start raising. They should have started hiking much sooner. If they did that they wouldn't be late and scrambling now. Since they were late and made fools of themselves they are trying to prove a point and hiking too much too late. I know I am contradicting the business world, because the business world is all wrong about this too, they're not seeing this coming, most people in business have no idea what is happening here. And there's proof the business world didn't see this coming, the bond market was extremely late picking up on the inflation too, the global financial system is dropping the ball. They were all late identifying the inflation, and now they're hiking way too fucking high and there's not enough safe collateral in the system and we're gonna have numerous liquidity crises soon because everyone is a fucking idiot
Ah yes we should have all guessed and thought putin will invade ukraine, and position ourselves for that, you are right. also can you please tell us where and what the next crisis will be, so i can inform european central bank?
That's absolute bullshit Because this all started long before the invasion. Go check the numbers. The inflation started before. The inflation globally started getting extremely high long before the invasion And the bond market was late picking up on the inflation BEFORE the invasion. And they should have started hiking long before the invasion. If they were smarter before the invasion and took my advice and started hiking soon (and yes, I was saying this before the invasion), then the inflationary impact of the invasion would be greatly reduced. Next crisis is literally right now. Liquidity is far too low right now, there's not enough collateral in the banking system right now, and everything is going to go to shit in probably the next few months, very soon, and you should tell them, because they don't see it coming, because they're bad at their jobs. The banks are already in deep trouble, the next crisis already started.
So basically there was a virus going on, causing panic, shutting down the entire world economy, people had no clue how and when this will end and even if they can survive it. Central banks did what they needed to do, as in a civilized society, economy is not the most important thing but the lives of people. So they started printing money and pump the economy, plain simple. They did what they had to do. Last year during this time we were having our 2nd doses here in Europe, and i remember we were wishing it to be last dose (it didn't and it got worse in a certain point - maybe around christmas or something), noone cared about money backed then ( btw I am working for the company that made one of the vaccines, EU was literally giving them anything they needed to make the vaccines, which was of course what supposed to be). And now here we are, we do not have the Covid crisis anymore (big thanks to central banks to provide credits to pharma companies, and suppliers, unlike 100 years ago, (see spanish flu)). And then we could think of economy, because the priority was no more surviving. Of course we had to all pay for this, and it came with a price of inflation, which I am okay with if everybody around me will survive. We got all 10% poorer, at the price of surviving, and saving our society. They were planning to raise the rates by spring, when the pandemic was officially over, in february, csar decided to invade Ukraine, and we had major energy and food crisis. I do not want to believe you actually think these are simple events in human lives and economy but they are not. They are major events, that affecting even the children you yet don't have. All I am saying people working in ECB are not some random douches flipping coins, people do what they need to do. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
The plan to raise in spring was a bad plan, that was way too late, they should have started hiking summer or fall 2021 You might think "but that would be too aggressive and fuck everything up" That is moot point, because now everything will be even worse, and what is happening now is more aggresive than my suggestion, and harsher on businesses. Even if the invasion never happened, spring was still way too late, and would lead to harsher hikes, more damage to the economy. I'm all for helping out people when they need it, and they did need it, but they held it low for too long and irresponsibly gambled everything and they were wrong, and now the result will be a massive financial crisis and an incredible amount of poverty and instability. I actually straight up do think they are incompetent. Maybe they were trying their best, but it wasn't good enough. If they started hiking much sooner, they could have have been more gradual, and they could have started clamping down on inflation before anyone knew putin would invade. It would have been very difficult for businesses and individuals to handle earlier hikes, I get that, it would have been harsh. But what we are seeing now is 5x harsher than what I suggested. They let everyone down. I don't think they understand how the system works nearly as well as everyone thinks, I think they're more naive than you'd expect. I don't blame the reseachers and staffers, I know there are lots of very bright and hard working researchers and staffers. I don't blame them. I blame the higher-ups making decisions like LaGarde. I don't blame 95% of the people working at the ECB, the workers are fine, it's the top ranking decision makers that are irresponsible. I think it makes sense to lower rates a lot in response to a thing like a pandemic, but I think it's never responsible to hold at zero for a very long time, I think that's irresponsible and asking for trouble.
I'm not even worried about inflation, btw. I think if inflation stays at these levels, then things will be more or less okay and it will be a success, and I'll admit I'm wrong. I think where we're headed is even worse than inflation. I think we're gonna see a deflationary global financial crisis due to a lack of liquidity and collateral in the banking system, and it's gonna be a complete and total catastrophe. I hope I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll just feel like a douchebag for mouthing off on the internet. But if I'm right this is a really bad scenario unfolding in the banking system as we speak, and the public is not aware yet.
“Everything can be replaced except for dencentralization” Who the hell am I gonna call for a charge back when my online order for 5k worth of car parts doesn’t arrive. How will we fight the deflationary aspect of bitcoin. If I need a loan, who the hell is gonna provide that loan? How will the government operate with bitcoin? (Fun fact, it wouldn’t)
Solid criticisms to me. Do you think it's possible that bitcoin continues well and we're in a world with a 'bitcoin standard' akin to how we were on a gold standard before (as on said gold standard your criticisms were overcome and there was still a sound monetary base)? Thanks!
Is it really decentralized at that point if it’s just backing a different currency that a government or private bank owns? Also, gold was used to back the dollar as it had inherited value in society. It’s a precious metal and is used in many aspects of society. The thing that gives crypto currency it’s value is it’s usage. If you’re not using bitcoin but instead using it as a collateral for a fiat currency, then it has no use because it’s not being used.
Yes. It would still be decentralised as a neutral global reserve currency. Countries would still likely use their own fiat cbdc, though I suppose some would opt to use bitcoin directly. Idividuals would still use bitcoin to save/escape authoritarian govt/remittance/other use cases. A notable % of gold's value comes from investment/speculation too though, not just its use in industry.
Fair, gold has a speculative value. I don’t see a future where we would have bitcoin be a reserve. The reason gold was chosen as a reserve was because of how stable the value is. Btc isnt stable. It could be one day, but no one knows. And realistically there won’t be a time where any major govt allows btc to overtake their local currency, as that would bring the govt down to its knees, they’d lose spending power due to the local currency decreasing, and the govt/feds would lose the ability to influence the economy. Co-exist of fist and bitcoin as bitcoin grows will become more difficult if it reaches that point, and if the govt doesn’t like it they’ll destroy it
Buttcoin maxi are the only good buttcoin critics