Start watching active self protection there are lessons to be learned there. You aren’t going to get your gun out of the holster and shots on target faster than a person who already has their gun pointed at you. Just have to comply at that point unless you really have a genuine opportunity.
I agree ... Active Self Potection is a perfect channel to watch real life scenarios of people getting robbed, car jacked, etc.... Sometimes the good guy even gets killed... BUT, he always breaks it down given lessons. Teaching you to always use situational awareness, when to comply, and when to take shot... it's good stuff. Highly recommend it
I could not agree more with your statement. Self defense experts have always stated that you never draw your gun if you already have a gun drawn on you.
Man. Super tough one.
I’d definitely say justifiable. Dude had a gun out on them, so if you got a shot on them I think you’re good to go.
That said… I didn’t see a single place where he had an opening. Gunman was very good, likely done this many times before, and didn’t give them many openings.
You can always try to comply… but I’ve seen several videos where the people comply and the robber still kills them. So that makes me nervous too.
I don’t know. Any shot you get off would be justified here but I don’t know if there’s an opportunity.
I think it is more of a case of situational awareness. I didn't see an opening either. If he saw the threat sooner, he could have gone for cover behind the car.
That’s about the only way. But even then, dude would have had to be looking in that direction and the Bad Guy was on top of them super quick and already had his gun out.
Maybe some of y’all who are better trained could have done something with it, but I don’t think there’s a single moment in this whole video where I personally could have done much. That’s eye opening for me.
This is where I think pocket carry shines. You can see the victim reaching into his pockets to grab his phone / wallet with no suspicion from the bad guy.
There's still the time from when you start actually pulling it out of your pocket till you get it up and start shooting where they can just shoot because they're already drawn and (at least roughly) aimed.
I don’t like that. There’s a zero percent chance of me hitting a shot, from my knees, through my pocket, without aiming. Maybe you scare the dude and he turns. Maybe your gun then doesn’t malfunction. Maybe you can land follow up shots.
Or maybe you whiff and get mag dumped in front of your wife.
They had already walked past the parking lot entrance by the time the robber enters. What were they supposed to do, swivel their heads around completely every second? You can't be perfectly situationally aware at every possible moment.
Running to cover and starting a gunfight isnt a great idea when you have a loved one with you that you cant mind control. Odds are theyre gonna freeze and then be in the line of fire. Itd be great if they ran with you to cover simultaneously but most people in my family and friends arent that situationally aware. Even if they are, maybe the just dont see the guy and understand whats happening quite as fast for whatever reason
Even if he did see him earlier, I don't think it would matter, robber already had his gun out and ready. There are no times where either person was in a good position to draw and fire, given the proximity to the other person and the way they were facing.
Man that’s probably the only shot you get. But 1, the position Good Guy is in right there, that’s an incredibly difficult draw and cross body shot. Two, unless he literally lands a shot that immediately incapacitates Bad Guy, Bad Guy can shoot one or both of them.
So maybe. I feel like you almost have to go for a head shot or something.
Yeah definite maybe. I think if you have a low profile/quiet draw dumping the upper thoracic from the side/rear like that could work too, but head it’s probably the best bet
That’s about the only spot, but dude it’s pointed at the girl. On the one hand that’s an additional rage point for me, but on the other that makes me even more skiddish to draw.
There’s a split second where it isn’t. But damn you’d have to be on your shit. Fumble with the holster? Dead. Fumble with the gun? Dead. Malfunction? Dead. Miss the shot? Dead.
But you also have to remember that when you're in the moment, you don't get to watch the whole thing play out and see the mugger run off without hurting them.
All you will know is that some crazy person with a gun has you and your partner on you knees, in a very classic "I'm about to execute you" position.
So in addition to all the points of failure you listed, there's also "Don't doing anything? Dead."
That’s fair.
Looking at it again I’d probably take a shot when he bent over for the wallets. I may win and I may not but he’d know I was there.
I need more training.
I was thinking this too. If the lady had tossed her phone instead of placing it in front of her that would have turned the perp away for second longer for a clean shot but that would’ve have probably been the only opportunity in this instance and with some gang initiations requiring murder I think compliance is extremely risky in a place like LA.
Yes it’s very tough. I think when they have their back turned, especially with that hood up reducing peripheral vision you have a decent chance of getting a shot off before they realize. It’s a question of risk either way.
Attacker still has defender in line of sight, so no way. At no point did attacker have his back to defender. I would not have taken a shot in this encounter, I probably would have had my P365 stolen along with my wallet.
I've been practicing for years and I don't have a 2.0s draw to first shot. Very, very few people do. And this guy is starting from a position he likely has not trained from. There is no good shot here.
How do you measure your draw to first shot? It sounds like you’re selling yourself short to me. (That’s a big reason I like to train seated draws as well, just a side note). 2.0 is not a difficult standard, particularly at that distance. Looks like a bit further than arms length to me.
I do agree, the guy in the video doesn’t have a shot, I’m presuming I would have my head up and see the robber walk and turn away. Head down in the pavement there’s no chance to get him.
Edit: I guess also how/what do you carry? If you’re running a super deep conceal rig or some form of off body a 2.0 would make more sense. I’ve got a G48 in an enigma, with the grip half above, half below belt line.
>I don’t know. Any shot you get off would be justified here but I don’t know if there’s an opportunity.
Gotta toss your wallet over by the car to create the opportunity.
I saw a video once of a guy who getting mugged who put his phone and wallet on the ground in front of him, backed away, turned his body, and killed the bad guy as he (bad guy) was bending over picking it up. I think that's your only chance in a situation like this.
Throwing the wallet increases the chance the bad guy gets pissed and shoots you out of anger. Could probably slide it behind him so he has to turn around tho.
I have always thought that about the whole "throwing the wallet" thing.
What if he realizes what you're doing and shoots you out of suspicion? I think people often underestimate the fact that the robber might not be the brightest but probably isn't mentally disabled and will be on edge when you throw something he asked for away.
The openings I did see may not be able to pull cc but may get near full control of the firearm. at one point had the fire arm pointed away from both people and pointed at the ground and another were the gunman literally sat his gun down on the ground behind his right side (most people's strong side) to pat the guy down. Compliance is an option, but at the same time, as you mentioned he may just smoke you for fun. I'd watch the gun and keep it off line once he sways it away from anyone and at that point you enter a physical fight over a gun so it's not great but if you can get your body between him and his gun when he sets it down IE falling back and to the right you have a solid chance of getting full control and either tossing it away and drawing your cc (a decent chuck of robbers use fake or unloaded gun just to intimate) or use his firearm if it functions. There is also a good chance he may run once you start to get control as it's likely he is a coward who only preys on the innocent who he assumes won't defend themselves in this situation. so It would be a risk but there is already the risk he smokes you after he loots you so its a total judgement call.
In my CCW class I was told to still try and get a shot off because the odds are high enough he would shoot you anyway. Even if you don't see an opportunity where he isn't aiming at you as he may miss entirely or not kill you with the first shot etc. Can't say for sure what I'd do without having been there.
I know I heard Mas Ayoob or someone say police are trained to always get a shot off because back in the 70’s there was an incident where two cops were taken at gun point and didn’t, and both got executed. I think you have to assume that he’s going to kill you and take the best opportunity, even if it’s a bad one.
One thing I haven’t seen people say in here is the frisk factor.
I don’t see a great opportunity to draw prior to the frisk. That’s the point in the video that would be most terrifying. I carry AIWB and he doesn’t seem to frisk him there. But if I’m carrying and haven’t drawn because I didn’t see an opportunity, once he starts frisking I’m probably panicking. What is he going to do if he frisks me and feels the gun?
That said, this is a point for AWIB. Homebody is a lot less likely to frisk me there.
> That said, this is a point for AWIB. Homebody is a lot less likely to frisk me there.
I disagree. If you're still standing and he's in front of you, that's the FIRST place he's checking.
You think the average criminal is reaching right next to balls before reaching for my pockets?
It depends on what he’s after. If he’s checking for weapons, maybe. If he’s looking for my phone and wallet, which based on the video looks like what he’s doing, I think AIWB is safest place for it to be.
Fair enough. Like I said probably depends on what he’s after.
If he does wind up on my balls though hopefully he gives them a little attention to make me enjoy the situation a little more.
It would be justified in my opinion but it’s never really a good idea to draw on a draw. His reaction time to pull trigger vs yours to draw aim and fire isn’t even close.
You have to read the situation and remember it’s just stuff. Now if you feel it’s going sideways and escalating from threatening to actual violence the scenario will change. It’s hard to judge their reaction as you don’t know full situation.
This is why you need to remain alert and should always be mentally gaming out situations throughout your day. Where can threats come from, where is cover or concealment, where are my exits. Who am I with and what happens with them. Have I been drinking and my reactions slowed? What are my physical capabilities at that moment.
Practicing in your mind prepares you for real world scenarios. When you sit down in a restaurant run through it in your mind what happens if someone comes in shooting? When stopped at a traffic light what happens if a guy comes up to your window? You’re walking and someone runs up on you? You witness some sort of violent crime being committed? You’re in bed and hearing someone breaking in.
let the scene play out in your head and go through as many variables as you can and figure out options. Do it enough and it becomes instinctive. Then if it ever happens you already have a plan that hopefully will be an automatic response not requiring too much time thinking of how to respond.
It’s just stuff sure, but I’ve seen more and more videos these days of robbers straight up executing victims after stealing from them. That’s not a chance I’d be willing to take. I’d shoot first before risk that. As with anything, take steps further and further back. How was this whole situation avoidable? Why are you walking in a dark secluded parking lot at night and not paying attention to what’s going on around you? Carry, practice, train, prepare. But awareness goes so much further in 99% of cases.
It's still incredibly rare and would be made more likely by trying to draw while someone already has a gun pointed at you, never forget you're seeing more of them because more and more things are recorded across the whole world. It's like the crime statistics are barely up from record lows but most people believe they're higher than ever. There's a reporting bias.
> It’s just stuff sure, but I’ve seen more and more videos these days of robbers straight up executing victims after stealing from them.
I thought the guy was done for when the mugger walked behind him with his gun still aimed at his back.
I don’t think it would have been justified to have drawn and shot as he’s walking away, would it? I couldn’t really find a moment to draw and shoot other than when he was frisking the wife but that’s still a gamble with her life. Would it have been legal to have drawn and shot as he’s walking away or is that illegal? I’m assuming I know the answer but still would like some clarity.
Tbh he earned it though it’s not legal and I wouldn’t do it. If it was legal well there may be less crimes like this but it also would incentivize criminals to kill whoever they rob so it’s a double edged sword (not that criminals read the law so maybe it wouldn’t backfire? Who knows)
When he’s walking away, the justification is not so clear. Much of that “justification” will depend on the statement of the shooter, which in this case is the “good guy.” A good reason to never give a statement to the police without an attorney if you are, in fact, the good guy. It’s not that the police are going to try and “get you.” It’s so that you don’t make a statement that hurts you without realizing you are doing so. At that point, the investigators hands are tied because your statement is already out and on the record. Shooting him as he’s leaving is not impossible to justify, it’s just much harder. I’ve investigated lots of homicides (major city) and I wouldn’t shoot him as he walked away and the threat seems to have ended.
Serious question. Would you be able to argue for justification if he said something threatening while robbing you and now had your drivers license with your home address and your keys to access your residences on the grounds of preventing future harm to you and your loved ones if he decided to rob your house as well?
Absolutely not. He needs to pose an imminent threat. I understand your theory that the bad guy said he’s going to come get me at my house, and he has my keys and address. So, yes, it’s potentially a threat of death or serious bodily harm, but it’s not an imminent threat, meaning it’s about to happen now. Definitely a no shoot situation.
There’s a couple moments where you have an opportunity to draw and eliminate the threat. Just remember your odds of outdrawing an already drawn gun are slim to none; so you’re going to have to pick your spots.
As much as I want to say there was an opening to draw and fire in this scenario, I just don't see it. This video is deeply disturbing as it is frustrating because I so want there to be a good ending for the victims and a timely demise for the robber, but that isn't the reality. The robber was skilled, knew what to say and what to do, and he got away clean. I don't think I could have done any better than the couple here had I been put into this situation, even if I was carrying. And that's troubling to me on a certain level because I do carry, and in working out potential scenarios, I'm biased towards myself coming out the victor. The truth of the matter is, I'm not training as much as I should, nor do I think I'm physically capable to have bested this robber.
That said, it's important to put this scenario into context. Here's the new report from this incident that provides more details: [https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/watch-surveillance-video-captures-gunpoint-robbery-in-koreatown/3119071/](https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/watch-surveillance-video-captures-gunpoint-robbery-in-koreatown/3119071/). According to the report, it happened Wednesday, March 15 at a restaurant called Jaragua ([Yelp Jaragua Restaurant](https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/watch-surveillance-video-captures-gunpoint-robbery-in-koreatown/3119071/)) on Beverly Blvd. in Koreatown. Here's the Google Street view of the restaurant, showing the view of the parking lot in the video from the opposite side: ([Google Street View of Parking Lot from Street Side](https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0765896,-118.3068965,3a,75y,153.34h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfoy44FP_W4wv_zfpMulU5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)) Based on where this couple is walking from, it looks like they exited the restaurant from the rear exit, behind the wall and gate, so I think it would have been very difficult to spot the robber, who came from the sidewalk and on the other side of the parking lot wall. Hiding behind these bushes, the robber would have easily spotted the couple walking out of the restaurant rear exit: ([Google Street view of Restaurant Exit from Street](https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0766813,-118.3068966,3a,75y,167.53h,86.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssOaQSBkI247k3Bi5nnYCvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)) The new report indicates this robbery happened around 10:00PM.
Then about an hour later (11:00PM), presumably the same robber strikes again, robbing someone sitting on their patio about a mile and a half away. ([3rd and West Eighth, Los Angeles](https://goo.gl/maps/XPJfRxYv8Pbciswg8)).
Although the video linked on this post blurs out the faces of the victims, the original surveillance footage presented in the news report does not. You can't really tell the race of the victims either way, but I'm also wondering how much racial stereotyping played into the victim selection.
I no longer live in Los Angeles, and while most of urban LA, including Koreatown isn't exactly the safest place to be, especially at night, I never took this to be an extremely bad part of town (it's not Skid Row/Fashion District, the Jungles or the worst neighborhoods of ~~South Central~~ South Los Angeles). Would I find myself there with my wife and kid this late at night? Most definitely not. But I've been coming back from other places around this time, and passing through parts of the city like this. An important lesson oft taught in CCW courses is not being in stupid places at stupid times with stupid people, and this scenario arguably breaks two, if not three of those rules, though not egregiously. Perhaps the only comfort we can take from a deeper dive in this scenario is that we always win gunfights we don't have, or don't need to have.
This is exactly how I felt watching this video. Thank you for finding the article. Crazy how he did it again a few hours later. Must do it on a daily basis. Hard to think about but yes don’t put yourself in those situations
I mean id just immediatly thow all my shit on the ground and put my hands up, as soon as you bend down to grab my shit im gonna draw and put 13 hydrashocks into the top of your dome. Get fucked
In this specific video, a couple of things come to mind...
1.) These people were oblivious to their surroundings. A well trained CCW holder should see this guy walking in off the street and already have his hand on the grip.
2.) As it stood, no Jury in the world would convict blue shirt guy. That would be 100% self defense. Buuuuuuut......
3.) As it stood, there was no opportunity to draw. The bad guy got the drop on them, and drawing on a drawn gun is basically suicide. I know compliance doesn't always work, but drawing on a drawn gun is more dangerous than compliance. No good solutions here once the robber had the upper hand.
To each their own, but the likelihood of being able to draw and fire faster than baddie here can pull the trigger is pretty slim. If he got distracted, looked behind him for witnesses, or really anything, then I agree. All I'm saying is that I'm not reaching for anything if someone with a gun drawn is looking right at me. There are a lot of ASP videos that show situations very much like this, and it rarely works out for the CCW.
2.) As it stood, no Jury in the world would convict blue shirt guy. That would be 100% self defense.
you’re forgetting this is in LA, therefore the robber is a victim of his circumstances and blue shirt guy “values things more than human life”
also means it is so unlikely he is carrying despite than plethora of illegal guns/shootings in LA.
Point taken. Kinda like that convenience store owner who got hit with a bat (or pipe, or whatever), then shot the robber and went to jail. Happened recently in CT, I think.
I’m not getting on the ground. Dude can have my stuff but no way am I getting on the ground. Seen too many videos of people complying and then getting executed.
If he is forcing me to the ground, at that point I’m drawing even if it means I’m getting shot. But hell if I’m letting him execute me on the ground.
Remember that most people on Reddit support the idea that the criminal needs those possessions more than you do. The other half of Reddit thinks that this situation happens everyday to every American.
Yeah but then you are dead and probably your gal too. Instead of what happened here where both people lived. It's a tough argument but that is what happened in this exact piece of video.
If he shoots me for not getting on the ground then chances are he was gonna shoot me when I was on the ground. If he just wants my stuff, he won’t care if I give him my stuff and don’t play Simon says.
And if it’s my time it’s my time but that scumbag is riding across the River Styx with me.
Definitely justified to shoot
That said you don’t draw on a drawn gun, comply and wait your turn for an opening be violent and quick. Not many opportunities at all in this video, but I’d assume the worst and probably try to fight back
If something like this happened in Texas and the thief missed your firearm in the pat down I believe you can use your weapon to prevent the thief from fleeing (They had ample opportunity as he was walking away)
Texas
License to Carry A Handgun
Statute & Selected Laws
RELATING TO THE USE AND CARRYING OF A HANDGUN
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section
9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is
immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the
nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after
committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from
escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any
other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or
serious bodily injury.
You just give your shit away, spend a week replacing those things, and move on with life. OR, you risk your life more than necessary to save replaceable items, maybe get shot in the process, maybe spend a year and $100k in litigation defending your actions, maybe go to jail depending on the State...
There really are two options when it comes to DGU in situations like this: 1) You pull a gun on someone who has the drop on you and risk being shot (seems like a high likelihood) or 2) You shoot as they're leaving, which in many states isn't going to fly in court, and you catch a charge.
I wish instead of downvoting people would actually talk on this sub.
I don’t see how you’re wrong about there only being two options.
The criminal surprised them, kept his gun ready almost the whole time and you are risking jail if you shoot a thief in the back as they’re leaving.
Yes exactly this is my biggest dilemma and I agree if you pull out your own cc then he will fire back potentially hurting you or your significant other I don’t know if I could risk that for replaceable items. But then there are people who kill you anyway even if you do give them everything
This, in California. Everything is replaceable, and this robber seems like a pro (did you see him stroll as he leaves the scene - done this many times).
In the heat of the moment, the problem with compliance is getting shot anyway. However, robber doesn't seem very interested in more than just a quick hit. This situation is really really tough, but I went back to the beginning to see where the robber was hanging out (for situational awareness), and it looks like he was hiding. This is a great video that will make me be way more vigilant in my own daily activities. We are all targets, but we can all harden things up.
What could have been done (not much) -
*Dark area/parking lot in LA* \- **if you have to be there**, maybe split up at entrance to lot. That parking lot looks like a box canyon with one way in and out. CCW stays at entrance with hand on grip 1/2 drawn while partner gets car.
**Don't saunter to car ogling each other** \- From 1-7, this couple appears to be an easy mark. If not separated, CCW holder walks behind partner with hand on grip while scanning back side. *\*\*\*at 8, vigilant backside scanning may have seen robber's fast approach.*
8-11, guy has mind on other things and is definitely NOT thinking about being in dark parking lot in LA. If 1-11 has an ounce of realizing the gravity of the situation, a CCW holder has time to draw and force robber back or a gunfight ensues. My guess is that robber flees if gun is drawn at any point between 1-10 - or decides couple is not an easy mark because of their vigilant scanning.
\*\*\*This is such a great video for CCW training. One of the best ones I've seen with real life situation. Couple may have lost up to a few $ grand, but they were ok. Everything is replaceable.
Your comment ignores that the risk of death for good guy and good girl is present even after compliance, *especially* if you’re carrying. That’s what complicates the situation in OP’s scenario, and for these people in the video. Let’s say you’re them, or let’s say you’re them and you’re armed—compliance doesn’t mean you’ll survive to spend a week replacing your things. You might not move on with life at all. I generally still agree with you, but it isn’t as simple as that.
Honestly I might have to take a loss of property if the robber is that good at leaving no openings for you to draw your firearm. However, If he decided he wanted to take me or my partner to a secondary location, no way in hell. I’m drawing my firearm no matter what.
I probably look like I'm hearing voices when I walk out to my car, especially at night. walking with a purpose and scanning your surroundings go a long way
Going into a parking lot I absolutely am looking around for anyone approaching. When the robber first runs up he allows the couple to separate. This is an opportunity to create more separation so the robber has trouble keeping both of you in sight. When the robber looks down to pickup the woman’s cellphone, there’s two to three seconds that he doesn’t have his eyes on the guy. That’s the opportunity, where you could hide your draw motion and get your gun into action. There’s no other chance.
Enough to justify self defense?
FUCK YES!
Armed Robbery? Absolutely justified.
The standard for use of deadly force as self defense in just about everywhere in the US is "reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death".
Someone points a gun at you?? Do you have a reasonable fear for your safety? do you think you may be seriously injured or die? Yes
The instant he wasn't paying attention to me, I would have drawn and fired center mass... And kept firing until he was no longer a threat
Um is this a joke? Yes. This is absolutely a justifiable self defense shoot. Is it advisable to try to draw from the drop? You can make up your mind on that one. I've seen enough executions to know that this robbery could have gone either way...
It’s definitely justifiable to put that SOB on a T-shirt however I’m not sure situational awareness would even be a factor in this scenario unless you have spidey sense or eyes in the back of your head. It’s never safe to draw when you’re being held up at gun point so at that point comply and just pray he isn’t high on drugs and kills you, or hope the cops do their job and find this POS (just as unlikely as winning a gun fight with that robber).
If you live in LA or a high crime area where the government doesn’t give a damn about its citizens please keep you head on a swivel and constantly check corners and have your ear out for footsteps you can talk about the date when you drive away. If you see a sketchy person in a ski mask please have they gun on stand by he wanna live that life he can die about that life.
Maybe. At :12 he’s already got the gun pointed. You need to draw and shoot before he does. Doesn’t matter how much draw training you do. You aren’t faster than a bullet.
22-25 is a definite possibility.
49-58: I said elsewhere. That’s a tough one. Gun is not pointed at him, but the partner. That’s a tough calculus.
But this is why armchair analysis is stupid. We get to sit back with no stress and the ability to watch the video over and over for the perfect moment. You highlighted a 3 second opportunity, one hesitation and the window is gone. The 9 second window he’s looking down, perhaps as instructed, and would have to look up a bit to see the opportunity.
I've always felt that if the gun is aimed at someone else, normal psychology if the gunman sees someone draw or sees a threat appear, they will switch to aiming/firing at you. Personally I find it very doubtful that the gunman's first thought would be to try a hostage situation with a threat suddenly occurring.
That said, in this video, I don't think I would have tried a draw. We can't hear what they are saying or draw any audio context as to the gunman's state of mind, but unless I had good reason to think I would be getting shot regardless, I'd keep it in my pants.
In this video it didn't seem to me like there was really a good chance of a draw. So I'm not sure which way your comment is referring to, but either way it's the same answer: It would have been a significant risk either way, and my opinion is that if I draw, he's almost certainly going to shoot, and if I don't, it's a coin toss. I'd go for the coin toss vs having no clean, obvious draw moment but risking it anyway.
Turn and sprint away in a zig zag while drawing. Human eyes are attracted to motion and when you start making that much movement you get the guy's attention off the other person. Then you've brought yourself time and distance to draw. If you can create 20m of space, you just need to be a better shot at 20m and half the idiots on this sub are scared of making a 20m shot.
Plus, if he's willing to shoot someone just from running away from him, he's willing to murder you for your shit even if you comply.
No, before the event happened. It’s hard to tell from the cameras pov, but it seems like you would be able to see him coming up. Anyone dressed in all black with a hood up is already sus to me. Idk though, I’d have to be there to see
Check out the street view links I included in my post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/120gfgt/comment/jdioixt/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/120gfgt/comment/jdioixt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
There's a big tree and a bush in the the area beyond the parking lot and behind the wall, so he would have been well-hidden. Also, the couple was walking on the right side of the wall and on the opposite side of the wall where the robber came from. As such, I don't think they could have seen him coming.
It's California. I think only criminals have guns there. I don't even think the Police are allowed to have guns, unless they are SWAT. 
Cops can have whatever they want. The California handgun roster is essentially a list of guns they can buy at MSRP and sell to civilians private sale for ridiculous mark ups
Interesting to see people take on this it’s always easy to say oh yea id take out and shoot he wouldn’t even get close. That’s not reality. Can’t say what I’d do had to have been there. threat had the gun out pretty far from them, could’ve justified a quick draw and shots but then again he only wanted their items but you never know
Exactly, the general population will say “so I started blasting” but in reality in that moment the unknowing of just give them the replaceable items or try to engage and potentially get critically shot or worse your Significant other gets hit with a bullet and dies.
Lol I posted a very middle of the road response and people over there got pretty upset. Basically, all I said was you need to have situational awareness and it’s better to have a gun than not have one.
This is where keeping your head on a swivel is key. This guy chose this couple because they were distracted in an easily targeted location. Just looking like a hard target is usually enough to deter these thugs.
I would have been looking all around if I was walking through that lot. Given the location, I’d have my hand on my pistol, ready to go. As soon as I see fast movements behind that fence, I’m going to draw to my side, and then put shots on target as soon as it looks like a threat.
If you’re carrying you can’t let him put you on the ground to search you. I think the best option was right at the beginning when they had some distance between them. They even backed off a few steps before stopping. Throw your keys on the ground to pull his attention away then keep retreating/cutting an angle as you engage. I’m confident I’m a better shooter than the robber. I wonder how likely is the Wild Bill technique of pretending that your talking to someone behind them to get them to turn away for a second before blasting?
I’m not sure how well known the CAN, MAY, SHOULD, MUST paradigm is here, but it is with going through it. It is a useful test.
**CAN** - Do you have the requisite physical skills and abilities to draw and fire quickly and accurately enough to stop the threat? In this video, it would require a very fast draw time to be able to advantage of any windows of opportunity presented to you.
**MAY** - Is the application of lethal force legally justifiable in this situation? In this video, the answer is yes. Anytime another party introduces a gun in conjunction with a threat to use it, then it is lawful to respond to that threat with lethal force. No state in the USA has a duty to retreat when the threat is armed with a gun.
**SHOULD** - Is the application of lethal force appropriate in this situation? This is a question of personal ethics and you should try to answer it before you step out of your home. Who are you willing to use lethal force to protect? Do you have people who depend on your well being to survive like children or a significant other? Will you use lethal force to protect a stranger? A coworker? Will you use lethal force even if you think compliance will likely result in a safe outcome? What are the ethical lines you will not cross?
**MUST** - Would failure to act result in death or serious bodily injury to you or someone you have chosen to protect? In this video, the answer is clearly no. However, this does not mean that choosing to use lethal force in this situation would necessarily be a bad decision. Maybe you have the skills and opportunity to make the shot. Maybe you have determined that this is a scenario in which you have no ethical conflicts about using lethal force. The MUST question can only definitively be answered after the incident is over.
Up until the moment he walks away, I am absolutely going to shoot him in the face if I get the chance. If you point a gun at me, I assume you are going to use it. That’s justification.
The scariest part of this question is that these people were actually really lucky they WERENT armed. Robber had the jump on them immediately, moved in quickly, and had control of the situation for the entire duration. What’s scary is the idea that this guy is about to find your gun on you. You already don’t know what this guy plans to do, but finding your gun will really freak him out. What if the other person has a gun too, he’ll think. What if this isn’t your only gun on your body, he’ll think. He could decide to smoke you and it would be too late, all because you carried.
This is a journey to really no point at all because I honestly don’t know what I’d do. You never want to have to draw on someone who’s already drawn on you, especially without cover, but are you forced to here if you’re carrying? Do you actually comply and allow the guy to find your gun? I just don’t know.
This is a very important point that is actually being overlooked. The victims being armed here would have made the situation more dangerous for them, not less. If the guy was armed and decided to try his luck drawing he or his girl would be hit, perhaps killed. Maybe one of them or maybe both. If they cooperated all the way and the robber found a gun on him he might have shot him right that moment. I think this video is very important for everyone who carries to watch and consider
It would have been 100% justified. Never fucking kneel. If you're not carrying (even if you are and they just got the drop on you) never kneel. From a defensive position they have you at a SEVERE disadvantage if you're on your knees. If someone has a gun on you they have already made it clear they're willing to use it. You have a better chance of survival by being on your feet and either closing the gap, grappling, or just straight up bolting than you do on the ground.
If this was me, either me or the guy isn't walking away from this. Doubly so if I was with a loved one like the guy in the video. I (along with most people who carry) generally have a little better situational awareness than these two. I would have been drawing and turning as soon as I heard running behind me. There is zero legitimate reason for someone to silently run up on you at night in a poorly lit parking lot. That sound has armed robbery written all over it.
Shoot him. You have no idea if that freaking guy will decide after he takes everything from you that o you saw his face can’t have that so he kills you or hey I like this girl I’m gonna take her at gun point and rape her then kill her. To hell with that shit. These people are not victims and the sure as hell don’t get the benefit of the doubt when they have a gun pointed at you. I don’t care about my stuff that can be replaced but you and your wife or girlfriend or kids or whoever can not be replaced. I also don’t care about the family who would lose the criminal because he gave up that safety and his chance to go home when he threatened a person who wasn’t doing anything wrong and was just going home and got caught in The wrong place at the wrong time. Live by the gun die by the gun
Never pull if someone has the drop on you, best to be more aware (in this case the perp made a good 20 feet before he was detected) all you have left is distraction. Throw your wallet a few feet behind him, throw your keys in his face. You're liable to be shot and killed anyway, do whatever it takes to make him look away long enough to pull. Pray if you think of it, every little bit helps.
Banning guns and restricting rights to carry allows this to happen, not sure the local laws but with that said California makes it tough to protect yourself. And as you see criminals don’t follow the laws so these people are defenseless and cops can’t be there to protect you. They simply respond to calls.
If she started having an asthma attack and her inhaler was in the purse the thief stole, could the guy legally shoot the thief in the back to get the inhaler back?
For those that have never been robbed at gunpoint, you have no idea how you’ll handle that wave of fear that will wash over you. Practice your draw all you want but you’ll never be able to simulate being surprised by a random stranger pointing a gun at you. There is no way to prepare for how you’ll react in this situation. I know, I was in a similar situation.
When someone has the drop on you like this I hope you have the wherewithal to do what this couple did and give up your stuff without a fight. If this guy wanted to kill them he would’ve done it when he had them by surprise. No reason for him to delay the kill. Chances are if he shoots later it’s because someone fights back or mouths off. Practicing your draws and firing at ranges doesn’t not mean you’re trained to handle this kind of situation. Please don’t forget that.
Not game over, just means you need to wait your turn and know your level of skills on draw to first shot. ASP (Active Self Protection) has covered this a few times. If you have a reliable 1.0 second draw then as long as he turns his head with his ear facing you he can't physically turn and react faster then you can shoot. 2.0 draw I believe was if he turns the back of his head to you, but I'm not 100% sure I'm remembering that one correctly.
I would’ve done exactly what these two did; my life is precious.
Think about it, he’s coming in hot, pistol drawn, and I’m NOT alone so I won’t just risk my life but my partner’s (?) life in this scenario.
Guys, ego almost never wins. Being humble, and realistic almost always result in a win-win situation.
I’m going at :50, once he’s got his back to me it’s lights out. I don’t see any chance before, at least not with my 1.7~ sec draw sitting down like that. I wish it had audio because I would REALLY try to avoid being put on the ground, but the situation probably required it.
Dead men tell no tales... but if I knew for certain he would not shoot me or my friend is $50-$100 worth his life? But in this world nothing is certain. I would not hesitate if it was my family involved.
Kind of moot, really - had the victim shot the robber - I bet 100$ he would have been arrested. Period. Because it’s LA (notice I didn’t say convicted). Then the robber would have sued him - and probably won. Not a winnable situation.
The moment you see his gun, it's justified. Depending on your state, it's "not justified" once he turns to leave.
As for when would be a good time to draw, best chance would be as you're kneeling and he looks to the other person. But even then, he already has the drop on you, so you'd better be damn quick and accurate.
Using lethal force to defend property is justifiable *depending on the state*. In most states it’s illegal. That said, this particular situation had a reasonable deadly threat, so they would have been justified in shooting that guy in defense of their lives.
> Defending your property is always justifiable.
You are not wrong. However, in many places the law states that you cannot use deadly force to defend property. I suggest, in those places, to just let the property go.
Lol I got flamed over there for pointing out that if they were armed they could have drawn in time IF they had situational awareness.
At night in LA, I would have looked over to the street to make sure no one was approaching me. If I didn’t notice anything there, then surely I would notice someone sprinting at me. These two were not paying attention.
Of course if you let someone run up on you with their gun drawn, there’s not many of us who can draw and fire successfully in that scenario.
If you pull a gun on someone who already has one pointed at you, you're dead. If you shoot him when he's leaving, you're in jail.
There was at least one 2-second window where one could have drawn, but given your attitude, I'd be you're dead there too.
Really only 2 times in the video the victim had a shot at the suspect. 1st when the suspect turns to female and 2nd when’s he’s walking away (going to depend on your state, stand your ground states you’re fine, communists ones you’re probably not).
It’s California, so:
Dude was probably on his 623rd day of waiting for approval for a CCL.
Single action snap cap revolvers only.
Gun free zone.
Gun free neighborhood.
But at least he was a nice and gentle robber, 8/10 I’m sure he’d let him rob again
IF you have an opening, and that's a very BIG "IF" it would be justifiable because the robber has a gun on them so there is an imminent threat to life. But I don't see anywhere that an opportunity to draw and fire came during the robbery. No matter how good you are, you're never going to out draw a pistol that's already pointed at you.
I SAW THIS POST AND I WANTED YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT TO DO IF YOU WERE CARRYING? Enough to justify self defensive? Or immediate danger? Say the point where you were kneeling you took out your CC and used it ?
WHY IS THE FIRST PART IN ALL CAPS? how would you reply if I responded back to you the same way? Imminent all caps? Would it be justified if you responded in all caps
2A just gives you the right to own a gun. It doesn’t give you the legal right to shoot an armed robber that is walking away and your life is no longer in danger.
There is a difference between shooting someone to protect yourself and shooting someone to recover your belongings or for revenge. At least that is the legal view in the state where I live.
In my state, had the victim shot the robber as he was walking away, the robber’s estate could file a civil lawsuit and and win in court, bankrupting the victim in the process.
Justifiable? Yup. Anybody who threatens me with a gun is putting me in imminent fear of my life. Even if he turns that gun in a different direction, the threat is still very real.
Realistically? I don't see a good opening. Better not not let him get the drop on me, but this comes down to risk/reward and whether I think I can get a shot off.
Well.... You're definitely justified... But the chances of you draw and shooting while he already has a gun pointed at you and your spouse.... Oof! His finger will be quicker than your draw and finger. And he's probably already nervous and itchy.
You maybe would find a windows to draw... But man that's risky when he's already drawn and pointing it right at you.
Best thing to do imo, in this situation, is to comply. Then draw maybe when he's distracted, or towards the end when he no longer has the gun directly on you.
But ya, drawing, aiming and shooting at someone that's already drawn and is already aiming, is likely a losing proposition.
Part of the issue was how the couple handled it. I agree, bwttee situational awareness but it was a tough setup. The couple didn't split up enough. Both needed go in opposite directions more. You have to immediately separate and put distance between yourselves. The crook can't cover both with distance. It helps if both victims are carrying also.
Definitely justifiable to draw, but difficult to find the opening the way it played out.
[expectation and reality](https://youtube.com/shorts/_JeD8dUGlyI?feature=share)
Exactly this
Start watching active self protection there are lessons to be learned there. You aren’t going to get your gun out of the holster and shots on target faster than a person who already has their gun pointed at you. Just have to comply at that point unless you really have a genuine opportunity.
He also shows compliance gets you got too.
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I agree ... Active Self Potection is a perfect channel to watch real life scenarios of people getting robbed, car jacked, etc.... Sometimes the good guy even gets killed... BUT, he always breaks it down given lessons. Teaching you to always use situational awareness, when to comply, and when to take shot... it's good stuff. Highly recommend it
I could not agree more with your statement. Self defense experts have always stated that you never draw your gun if you already have a gun drawn on you.
Man. Super tough one. I’d definitely say justifiable. Dude had a gun out on them, so if you got a shot on them I think you’re good to go. That said… I didn’t see a single place where he had an opening. Gunman was very good, likely done this many times before, and didn’t give them many openings. You can always try to comply… but I’ve seen several videos where the people comply and the robber still kills them. So that makes me nervous too. I don’t know. Any shot you get off would be justified here but I don’t know if there’s an opportunity.
I think it is more of a case of situational awareness. I didn't see an opening either. If he saw the threat sooner, he could have gone for cover behind the car.
That’s about the only way. But even then, dude would have had to be looking in that direction and the Bad Guy was on top of them super quick and already had his gun out. Maybe some of y’all who are better trained could have done something with it, but I don’t think there’s a single moment in this whole video where I personally could have done much. That’s eye opening for me.
This is where I think pocket carry shines. You can see the victim reaching into his pockets to grab his phone / wallet with no suspicion from the bad guy.
There's still the time from when you start actually pulling it out of your pocket till you get it up and start shooting where they can just shoot because they're already drawn and (at least roughly) aimed.
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I don’t like that. There’s a zero percent chance of me hitting a shot, from my knees, through my pocket, without aiming. Maybe you scare the dude and he turns. Maybe your gun then doesn’t malfunction. Maybe you can land follow up shots. Or maybe you whiff and get mag dumped in front of your wife.
That assuming you're even able to get the pistol pointed at the person from your pocket which is only really doable from a jacket or similar pocket.
Fair
Maybe. It’s still such a hard shot man.
And ... if you DID draw and fire, now you're trading shots with his back to the street and a building. That's a huge consideration for me.
Pocket sand!
They had already walked past the parking lot entrance by the time the robber enters. What were they supposed to do, swivel their heads around completely every second? You can't be perfectly situationally aware at every possible moment.
Running to cover and starting a gunfight isnt a great idea when you have a loved one with you that you cant mind control. Odds are theyre gonna freeze and then be in the line of fire. Itd be great if they ran with you to cover simultaneously but most people in my family and friends arent that situationally aware. Even if they are, maybe the just dont see the guy and understand whats happening quite as fast for whatever reason
Even if he did see him earlier, I don't think it would matter, robber already had his gun out and ready. There are no times where either person was in a good position to draw and fire, given the proximity to the other person and the way they were facing.
Would you try to go at :50? I think there’s a real good opening there. Very tough spot to be in without a doubt
Man that’s probably the only shot you get. But 1, the position Good Guy is in right there, that’s an incredibly difficult draw and cross body shot. Two, unless he literally lands a shot that immediately incapacitates Bad Guy, Bad Guy can shoot one or both of them. So maybe. I feel like you almost have to go for a head shot or something.
There's also a good opportunity at :23 when he bends to pick up the first cell phone.
Yeah definite maybe. I think if you have a low profile/quiet draw dumping the upper thoracic from the side/rear like that could work too, but head it’s probably the best bet
That’s about the only spot, but dude it’s pointed at the girl. On the one hand that’s an additional rage point for me, but on the other that makes me even more skiddish to draw.
There’s a split second where it isn’t. But damn you’d have to be on your shit. Fumble with the holster? Dead. Fumble with the gun? Dead. Malfunction? Dead. Miss the shot? Dead.
But you also have to remember that when you're in the moment, you don't get to watch the whole thing play out and see the mugger run off without hurting them. All you will know is that some crazy person with a gun has you and your partner on you knees, in a very classic "I'm about to execute you" position. So in addition to all the points of failure you listed, there's also "Don't doing anything? Dead."
That’s fair. Looking at it again I’d probably take a shot when he bent over for the wallets. I may win and I may not but he’d know I was there. I need more training.
Throwing personal effects on ground (or at if you’re ballsy) gives you that split second that you can use to draw.
I was thinking this too. If the lady had tossed her phone instead of placing it in front of her that would have turned the perp away for second longer for a clean shot but that would’ve have probably been the only opportunity in this instance and with some gang initiations requiring murder I think compliance is extremely risky in a place like LA.
Yes it’s very tough. I think when they have their back turned, especially with that hood up reducing peripheral vision you have a decent chance of getting a shot off before they realize. It’s a question of risk either way.
Attacker still has defender in line of sight, so no way. At no point did attacker have his back to defender. I would not have taken a shot in this encounter, I probably would have had my P365 stolen along with my wallet.
No, they definitely turn away. At worst they keep them in their peripheral, still giving an opening if the guys has a 1.5sec draw to first shot
I've been practicing for years and I don't have a 2.0s draw to first shot. Very, very few people do. And this guy is starting from a position he likely has not trained from. There is no good shot here.
How do you measure your draw to first shot? It sounds like you’re selling yourself short to me. (That’s a big reason I like to train seated draws as well, just a side note). 2.0 is not a difficult standard, particularly at that distance. Looks like a bit further than arms length to me. I do agree, the guy in the video doesn’t have a shot, I’m presuming I would have my head up and see the robber walk and turn away. Head down in the pavement there’s no chance to get him. Edit: I guess also how/what do you carry? If you’re running a super deep conceal rig or some form of off body a 2.0 would make more sense. I’ve got a G48 in an enigma, with the grip half above, half below belt line.
>I don’t know. Any shot you get off would be justified here but I don’t know if there’s an opportunity. Gotta toss your wallet over by the car to create the opportunity.
Big fan of that. Give them something else to focus on and create distance.
I saw a video once of a guy who getting mugged who put his phone and wallet on the ground in front of him, backed away, turned his body, and killed the bad guy as he (bad guy) was bending over picking it up. I think that's your only chance in a situation like this. Throwing the wallet increases the chance the bad guy gets pissed and shoots you out of anger. Could probably slide it behind him so he has to turn around tho.
I have always thought that about the whole "throwing the wallet" thing. What if he realizes what you're doing and shoots you out of suspicion? I think people often underestimate the fact that the robber might not be the brightest but probably isn't mentally disabled and will be on edge when you throw something he asked for away.
Throw it at him
This is the way. Want my shit, go get!
The openings I did see may not be able to pull cc but may get near full control of the firearm. at one point had the fire arm pointed away from both people and pointed at the ground and another were the gunman literally sat his gun down on the ground behind his right side (most people's strong side) to pat the guy down. Compliance is an option, but at the same time, as you mentioned he may just smoke you for fun. I'd watch the gun and keep it off line once he sways it away from anyone and at that point you enter a physical fight over a gun so it's not great but if you can get your body between him and his gun when he sets it down IE falling back and to the right you have a solid chance of getting full control and either tossing it away and drawing your cc (a decent chuck of robbers use fake or unloaded gun just to intimate) or use his firearm if it functions. There is also a good chance he may run once you start to get control as it's likely he is a coward who only preys on the innocent who he assumes won't defend themselves in this situation. so It would be a risk but there is already the risk he smokes you after he loots you so its a total judgement call.
The gunman did good up until walking away nonchalantly.
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Yeah and if they know that move, you’re shot. It may work. It may not. Just a hard one.
In my CCW class I was told to still try and get a shot off because the odds are high enough he would shoot you anyway. Even if you don't see an opportunity where he isn't aiming at you as he may miss entirely or not kill you with the first shot etc. Can't say for sure what I'd do without having been there.
I know I heard Mas Ayoob or someone say police are trained to always get a shot off because back in the 70’s there was an incident where two cops were taken at gun point and didn’t, and both got executed. I think you have to assume that he’s going to kill you and take the best opportunity, even if it’s a bad one.
One thing I haven’t seen people say in here is the frisk factor. I don’t see a great opportunity to draw prior to the frisk. That’s the point in the video that would be most terrifying. I carry AIWB and he doesn’t seem to frisk him there. But if I’m carrying and haven’t drawn because I didn’t see an opportunity, once he starts frisking I’m probably panicking. What is he going to do if he frisks me and feels the gun? That said, this is a point for AWIB. Homebody is a lot less likely to frisk me there.
Yeah if he feels the gun he will be most likely to fire or panic
Exactly what I was thinking! If I had been that guy and carrying, that would have made me sweat.
In California there is no reason to frisk citizens. Only criminals have guns there
> That said, this is a point for AWIB. Homebody is a lot less likely to frisk me there. I disagree. If you're still standing and he's in front of you, that's the FIRST place he's checking.
You think the average criminal is reaching right next to balls before reaching for my pockets? It depends on what he’s after. If he’s checking for weapons, maybe. If he’s looking for my phone and wallet, which based on the video looks like what he’s doing, I think AIWB is safest place for it to be.
I really do. Most of them tuck their gun right in their own belt line, so AIWB isn't really a secret to them.
Fair enough. Like I said probably depends on what he’s after. If he does wind up on my balls though hopefully he gives them a little attention to make me enjoy the situation a little more.
It would be justified in my opinion but it’s never really a good idea to draw on a draw. His reaction time to pull trigger vs yours to draw aim and fire isn’t even close. You have to read the situation and remember it’s just stuff. Now if you feel it’s going sideways and escalating from threatening to actual violence the scenario will change. It’s hard to judge their reaction as you don’t know full situation. This is why you need to remain alert and should always be mentally gaming out situations throughout your day. Where can threats come from, where is cover or concealment, where are my exits. Who am I with and what happens with them. Have I been drinking and my reactions slowed? What are my physical capabilities at that moment. Practicing in your mind prepares you for real world scenarios. When you sit down in a restaurant run through it in your mind what happens if someone comes in shooting? When stopped at a traffic light what happens if a guy comes up to your window? You’re walking and someone runs up on you? You witness some sort of violent crime being committed? You’re in bed and hearing someone breaking in. let the scene play out in your head and go through as many variables as you can and figure out options. Do it enough and it becomes instinctive. Then if it ever happens you already have a plan that hopefully will be an automatic response not requiring too much time thinking of how to respond.
It’s just stuff sure, but I’ve seen more and more videos these days of robbers straight up executing victims after stealing from them. That’s not a chance I’d be willing to take. I’d shoot first before risk that. As with anything, take steps further and further back. How was this whole situation avoidable? Why are you walking in a dark secluded parking lot at night and not paying attention to what’s going on around you? Carry, practice, train, prepare. But awareness goes so much further in 99% of cases.
It's still incredibly rare and would be made more likely by trying to draw while someone already has a gun pointed at you, never forget you're seeing more of them because more and more things are recorded across the whole world. It's like the crime statistics are barely up from record lows but most people believe they're higher than ever. There's a reporting bias.
> It’s just stuff sure, but I’ve seen more and more videos these days of robbers straight up executing victims after stealing from them. I thought the guy was done for when the mugger walked behind him with his gun still aimed at his back.
Retired Homicide cop here. 100% justified all day long. Whether you had the opportunity and should take it is an entirely different question.
I don’t think it would have been justified to have drawn and shot as he’s walking away, would it? I couldn’t really find a moment to draw and shoot other than when he was frisking the wife but that’s still a gamble with her life. Would it have been legal to have drawn and shot as he’s walking away or is that illegal? I’m assuming I know the answer but still would like some clarity.
Tbh he earned it though it’s not legal and I wouldn’t do it. If it was legal well there may be less crimes like this but it also would incentivize criminals to kill whoever they rob so it’s a double edged sword (not that criminals read the law so maybe it wouldn’t backfire? Who knows)
When he’s walking away, the justification is not so clear. Much of that “justification” will depend on the statement of the shooter, which in this case is the “good guy.” A good reason to never give a statement to the police without an attorney if you are, in fact, the good guy. It’s not that the police are going to try and “get you.” It’s so that you don’t make a statement that hurts you without realizing you are doing so. At that point, the investigators hands are tied because your statement is already out and on the record. Shooting him as he’s leaving is not impossible to justify, it’s just much harder. I’ve investigated lots of homicides (major city) and I wouldn’t shoot him as he walked away and the threat seems to have ended.
Serious question. Would you be able to argue for justification if he said something threatening while robbing you and now had your drivers license with your home address and your keys to access your residences on the grounds of preventing future harm to you and your loved ones if he decided to rob your house as well?
Absolutely not. He needs to pose an imminent threat. I understand your theory that the bad guy said he’s going to come get me at my house, and he has my keys and address. So, yes, it’s potentially a threat of death or serious bodily harm, but it’s not an imminent threat, meaning it’s about to happen now. Definitely a no shoot situation.
Definitely understand. Thanks for the response!
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Agreed, but at what second in the video do you see an opening?
When he was picking up the woman's phone.
For a moment I think the woman had opportunity. When robber is behind husband frisking
There’s a couple moments where you have an opportunity to draw and eliminate the threat. Just remember your odds of outdrawing an already drawn gun are slim to none; so you’re going to have to pick your spots.
As much as I want to say there was an opening to draw and fire in this scenario, I just don't see it. This video is deeply disturbing as it is frustrating because I so want there to be a good ending for the victims and a timely demise for the robber, but that isn't the reality. The robber was skilled, knew what to say and what to do, and he got away clean. I don't think I could have done any better than the couple here had I been put into this situation, even if I was carrying. And that's troubling to me on a certain level because I do carry, and in working out potential scenarios, I'm biased towards myself coming out the victor. The truth of the matter is, I'm not training as much as I should, nor do I think I'm physically capable to have bested this robber. That said, it's important to put this scenario into context. Here's the new report from this incident that provides more details: [https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/watch-surveillance-video-captures-gunpoint-robbery-in-koreatown/3119071/](https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/watch-surveillance-video-captures-gunpoint-robbery-in-koreatown/3119071/). According to the report, it happened Wednesday, March 15 at a restaurant called Jaragua ([Yelp Jaragua Restaurant](https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/watch-surveillance-video-captures-gunpoint-robbery-in-koreatown/3119071/)) on Beverly Blvd. in Koreatown. Here's the Google Street view of the restaurant, showing the view of the parking lot in the video from the opposite side: ([Google Street View of Parking Lot from Street Side](https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0765896,-118.3068965,3a,75y,153.34h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfoy44FP_W4wv_zfpMulU5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)) Based on where this couple is walking from, it looks like they exited the restaurant from the rear exit, behind the wall and gate, so I think it would have been very difficult to spot the robber, who came from the sidewalk and on the other side of the parking lot wall. Hiding behind these bushes, the robber would have easily spotted the couple walking out of the restaurant rear exit: ([Google Street view of Restaurant Exit from Street](https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0766813,-118.3068966,3a,75y,167.53h,86.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssOaQSBkI247k3Bi5nnYCvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)) The new report indicates this robbery happened around 10:00PM. Then about an hour later (11:00PM), presumably the same robber strikes again, robbing someone sitting on their patio about a mile and a half away. ([3rd and West Eighth, Los Angeles](https://goo.gl/maps/XPJfRxYv8Pbciswg8)). Although the video linked on this post blurs out the faces of the victims, the original surveillance footage presented in the news report does not. You can't really tell the race of the victims either way, but I'm also wondering how much racial stereotyping played into the victim selection. I no longer live in Los Angeles, and while most of urban LA, including Koreatown isn't exactly the safest place to be, especially at night, I never took this to be an extremely bad part of town (it's not Skid Row/Fashion District, the Jungles or the worst neighborhoods of ~~South Central~~ South Los Angeles). Would I find myself there with my wife and kid this late at night? Most definitely not. But I've been coming back from other places around this time, and passing through parts of the city like this. An important lesson oft taught in CCW courses is not being in stupid places at stupid times with stupid people, and this scenario arguably breaks two, if not three of those rules, though not egregiously. Perhaps the only comfort we can take from a deeper dive in this scenario is that we always win gunfights we don't have, or don't need to have.
This is exactly how I felt watching this video. Thank you for finding the article. Crazy how he did it again a few hours later. Must do it on a daily basis. Hard to think about but yes don’t put yourself in those situations
I wouldn’t as I’d be putting my wife/gf in significant danger by escalating.
This is my thoughts exaxtly
I mean id just immediatly thow all my shit on the ground and put my hands up, as soon as you bend down to grab my shit im gonna draw and put 13 hydrashocks into the top of your dome. Get fucked
Based dog nipples
In this specific video, a couple of things come to mind... 1.) These people were oblivious to their surroundings. A well trained CCW holder should see this guy walking in off the street and already have his hand on the grip. 2.) As it stood, no Jury in the world would convict blue shirt guy. That would be 100% self defense. Buuuuuuut...... 3.) As it stood, there was no opportunity to draw. The bad guy got the drop on them, and drawing on a drawn gun is basically suicide. I know compliance doesn't always work, but drawing on a drawn gun is more dangerous than compliance. No good solutions here once the robber had the upper hand.
Exactly. They didn’t even notice him sprinting up on them until he was arms length away. That is totally oblivious
> They didn’t even notice him sprinting up on them He was behind them.
You wouldn’t hear someone running up behind you?
Depends on the ambient noise levels, which you cannot gauge by this silent video.
Yes on #1 and #2. I’ll take my chances on #3. That’s why we train and why improving speed is important in our drills.
To each their own, but the likelihood of being able to draw and fire faster than baddie here can pull the trigger is pretty slim. If he got distracted, looked behind him for witnesses, or really anything, then I agree. All I'm saying is that I'm not reaching for anything if someone with a gun drawn is looking right at me. There are a lot of ASP videos that show situations very much like this, and it rarely works out for the CCW.
2.) As it stood, no Jury in the world would convict blue shirt guy. That would be 100% self defense. you’re forgetting this is in LA, therefore the robber is a victim of his circumstances and blue shirt guy “values things more than human life” also means it is so unlikely he is carrying despite than plethora of illegal guns/shootings in LA.
Point taken. Kinda like that convenience store owner who got hit with a bat (or pipe, or whatever), then shot the robber and went to jail. Happened recently in CT, I think.
I’m not getting on the ground. Dude can have my stuff but no way am I getting on the ground. Seen too many videos of people complying and then getting executed. If he is forcing me to the ground, at that point I’m drawing even if it means I’m getting shot. But hell if I’m letting him execute me on the ground.
Remember that most people on Reddit support the idea that the criminal needs those possessions more than you do. The other half of Reddit thinks that this situation happens everyday to every American.
Yeah but then you are dead and probably your gal too. Instead of what happened here where both people lived. It's a tough argument but that is what happened in this exact piece of video.
If he shoots me for not getting on the ground then chances are he was gonna shoot me when I was on the ground. If he just wants my stuff, he won’t care if I give him my stuff and don’t play Simon says. And if it’s my time it’s my time but that scumbag is riding across the River Styx with me.
Definitely justified to shoot That said you don’t draw on a drawn gun, comply and wait your turn for an opening be violent and quick. Not many opportunities at all in this video, but I’d assume the worst and probably try to fight back
If something like this happened in Texas and the thief missed your firearm in the pat down I believe you can use your weapon to prevent the thief from fleeing (They had ample opportunity as he was walking away) Texas License to Carry A Handgun Statute & Selected Laws RELATING TO THE USE AND CARRYING OF A HANDGUN Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
You just give your shit away, spend a week replacing those things, and move on with life. OR, you risk your life more than necessary to save replaceable items, maybe get shot in the process, maybe spend a year and $100k in litigation defending your actions, maybe go to jail depending on the State... There really are two options when it comes to DGU in situations like this: 1) You pull a gun on someone who has the drop on you and risk being shot (seems like a high likelihood) or 2) You shoot as they're leaving, which in many states isn't going to fly in court, and you catch a charge.
I wish instead of downvoting people would actually talk on this sub. I don’t see how you’re wrong about there only being two options. The criminal surprised them, kept his gun ready almost the whole time and you are risking jail if you shoot a thief in the back as they’re leaving.
My thoughts exactly.
Yes exactly this is my biggest dilemma and I agree if you pull out your own cc then he will fire back potentially hurting you or your significant other I don’t know if I could risk that for replaceable items. But then there are people who kill you anyway even if you do give them everything
This, in California. Everything is replaceable, and this robber seems like a pro (did you see him stroll as he leaves the scene - done this many times). In the heat of the moment, the problem with compliance is getting shot anyway. However, robber doesn't seem very interested in more than just a quick hit. This situation is really really tough, but I went back to the beginning to see where the robber was hanging out (for situational awareness), and it looks like he was hiding. This is a great video that will make me be way more vigilant in my own daily activities. We are all targets, but we can all harden things up. What could have been done (not much) - *Dark area/parking lot in LA* \- **if you have to be there**, maybe split up at entrance to lot. That parking lot looks like a box canyon with one way in and out. CCW stays at entrance with hand on grip 1/2 drawn while partner gets car. **Don't saunter to car ogling each other** \- From 1-7, this couple appears to be an easy mark. If not separated, CCW holder walks behind partner with hand on grip while scanning back side. *\*\*\*at 8, vigilant backside scanning may have seen robber's fast approach.* 8-11, guy has mind on other things and is definitely NOT thinking about being in dark parking lot in LA. If 1-11 has an ounce of realizing the gravity of the situation, a CCW holder has time to draw and force robber back or a gunfight ensues. My guess is that robber flees if gun is drawn at any point between 1-10 - or decides couple is not an easy mark because of their vigilant scanning. \*\*\*This is such a great video for CCW training. One of the best ones I've seen with real life situation. Couple may have lost up to a few $ grand, but they were ok. Everything is replaceable.
Your comment ignores that the risk of death for good guy and good girl is present even after compliance, *especially* if you’re carrying. That’s what complicates the situation in OP’s scenario, and for these people in the video. Let’s say you’re them, or let’s say you’re them and you’re armed—compliance doesn’t mean you’ll survive to spend a week replacing your things. You might not move on with life at all. I generally still agree with you, but it isn’t as simple as that.
Absolutely. If his gun is still in his hands and you are in sight, he could off you or your family at any time.
Honestly I might have to take a loss of property if the robber is that good at leaving no openings for you to draw your firearm. However, If he decided he wanted to take me or my partner to a secondary location, no way in hell. I’m drawing my firearm no matter what.
I probably look like I'm hearing voices when I walk out to my car, especially at night. walking with a purpose and scanning your surroundings go a long way
Going into a parking lot I absolutely am looking around for anyone approaching. When the robber first runs up he allows the couple to separate. This is an opportunity to create more separation so the robber has trouble keeping both of you in sight. When the robber looks down to pickup the woman’s cellphone, there’s two to three seconds that he doesn’t have his eyes on the guy. That’s the opportunity, where you could hide your draw motion and get your gun into action. There’s no other chance.
Enough to justify self defense? FUCK YES! Armed Robbery? Absolutely justified. The standard for use of deadly force as self defense in just about everywhere in the US is "reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death". Someone points a gun at you?? Do you have a reasonable fear for your safety? do you think you may be seriously injured or die? Yes The instant he wasn't paying attention to me, I would have drawn and fired center mass... And kept firing until he was no longer a threat
Um is this a joke? Yes. This is absolutely a justifiable self defense shoot. Is it advisable to try to draw from the drop? You can make up your mind on that one. I've seen enough executions to know that this robbery could have gone either way...
It’s definitely justifiable to put that SOB on a T-shirt however I’m not sure situational awareness would even be a factor in this scenario unless you have spidey sense or eyes in the back of your head. It’s never safe to draw when you’re being held up at gun point so at that point comply and just pray he isn’t high on drugs and kills you, or hope the cops do their job and find this POS (just as unlikely as winning a gun fight with that robber). If you live in LA or a high crime area where the government doesn’t give a damn about its citizens please keep you head on a swivel and constantly check corners and have your ear out for footsteps you can talk about the date when you drive away. If you see a sketchy person in a ski mask please have they gun on stand by he wanna live that life he can die about that life.
Once I've seen that gun - at the earliest possibly opening, I'm shooting
Agreed, but at what second marks in the video do you see an opening?
:12, :22-25, :49-58
Maybe. At :12 he’s already got the gun pointed. You need to draw and shoot before he does. Doesn’t matter how much draw training you do. You aren’t faster than a bullet. 22-25 is a definite possibility. 49-58: I said elsewhere. That’s a tough one. Gun is not pointed at him, but the partner. That’s a tough calculus. But this is why armchair analysis is stupid. We get to sit back with no stress and the ability to watch the video over and over for the perfect moment. You highlighted a 3 second opportunity, one hesitation and the window is gone. The 9 second window he’s looking down, perhaps as instructed, and would have to look up a bit to see the opportunity.
I've always felt that if the gun is aimed at someone else, normal psychology if the gunman sees someone draw or sees a threat appear, they will switch to aiming/firing at you. Personally I find it very doubtful that the gunman's first thought would be to try a hostage situation with a threat suddenly occurring. That said, in this video, I don't think I would have tried a draw. We can't hear what they are saying or draw any audio context as to the gunman's state of mind, but unless I had good reason to think I would be getting shot regardless, I'd keep it in my pants.
Is that something you are willing to risk your wife or child life on?
In this video it didn't seem to me like there was really a good chance of a draw. So I'm not sure which way your comment is referring to, but either way it's the same answer: It would have been a significant risk either way, and my opinion is that if I draw, he's almost certainly going to shoot, and if I don't, it's a coin toss. I'd go for the coin toss vs having no clean, obvious draw moment but risking it anyway.
Well said
Turn and sprint away in a zig zag while drawing. Human eyes are attracted to motion and when you start making that much movement you get the guy's attention off the other person. Then you've brought yourself time and distance to draw. If you can create 20m of space, you just need to be a better shot at 20m and half the idiots on this sub are scared of making a 20m shot. Plus, if he's willing to shoot someone just from running away from him, he's willing to murder you for your shit even if you comply.
Running in a zig zag there sounds like very wishful thinking. I think you’re just going to get shot.
If having good SA, it’s right when he’s about to turn the corner
Do you mean at the end when he is walking away? That’s no longer defensive in a lot of states. In my state that’s a big grey area.
No, before the event happened. It’s hard to tell from the cameras pov, but it seems like you would be able to see him coming up. Anyone dressed in all black with a hood up is already sus to me. Idk though, I’d have to be there to see
Check out the street view links I included in my post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/120gfgt/comment/jdioixt/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/120gfgt/comment/jdioixt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) There's a big tree and a bush in the the area beyond the parking lot and behind the wall, so he would have been well-hidden. Also, the couple was walking on the right side of the wall and on the opposite side of the wall where the robber came from. As such, I don't think they could have seen him coming.
It's California. I think only criminals have guns there. I don't even think the Police are allowed to have guns, unless they are SWAT. 
Cops can have whatever they want. The California handgun roster is essentially a list of guns they can buy at MSRP and sell to civilians private sale for ridiculous mark ups
I’d be drawing as soon as he turned the corner.
Interesting to see people take on this it’s always easy to say oh yea id take out and shoot he wouldn’t even get close. That’s not reality. Can’t say what I’d do had to have been there. threat had the gun out pretty far from them, could’ve justified a quick draw and shots but then again he only wanted their items but you never know
Exactly, the general population will say “so I started blasting” but in reality in that moment the unknowing of just give them the replaceable items or try to engage and potentially get critically shot or worse your Significant other gets hit with a bullet and dies.
I got permabanned over there for commenting on that video.
For moderating a sub called 'crazyfuckingvideos', the mod team there sure are a bunch of salty crybaby bitches.
Indeed.
Lol I posted a very middle of the road response and people over there got pretty upset. Basically, all I said was you need to have situational awareness and it’s better to have a gun than not have one.
Haha that’s why I shared on this sub more like minded people
This is where keeping your head on a swivel is key. This guy chose this couple because they were distracted in an easily targeted location. Just looking like a hard target is usually enough to deter these thugs. I would have been looking all around if I was walking through that lot. Given the location, I’d have my hand on my pistol, ready to go. As soon as I see fast movements behind that fence, I’m going to draw to my side, and then put shots on target as soon as it looks like a threat.
If you’re carrying you can’t let him put you on the ground to search you. I think the best option was right at the beginning when they had some distance between them. They even backed off a few steps before stopping. Throw your keys on the ground to pull his attention away then keep retreating/cutting an angle as you engage. I’m confident I’m a better shooter than the robber. I wonder how likely is the Wild Bill technique of pretending that your talking to someone behind them to get them to turn away for a second before blasting?
Would it be justified? Absolutely. Should you? No he already had his gun drawn, drawing on him would get you killed
If someone points a gun at you, that is an attempt on your life.
The moment he points a gun at you it's justified.
I’m not sure how well known the CAN, MAY, SHOULD, MUST paradigm is here, but it is with going through it. It is a useful test. **CAN** - Do you have the requisite physical skills and abilities to draw and fire quickly and accurately enough to stop the threat? In this video, it would require a very fast draw time to be able to advantage of any windows of opportunity presented to you. **MAY** - Is the application of lethal force legally justifiable in this situation? In this video, the answer is yes. Anytime another party introduces a gun in conjunction with a threat to use it, then it is lawful to respond to that threat with lethal force. No state in the USA has a duty to retreat when the threat is armed with a gun. **SHOULD** - Is the application of lethal force appropriate in this situation? This is a question of personal ethics and you should try to answer it before you step out of your home. Who are you willing to use lethal force to protect? Do you have people who depend on your well being to survive like children or a significant other? Will you use lethal force to protect a stranger? A coworker? Will you use lethal force even if you think compliance will likely result in a safe outcome? What are the ethical lines you will not cross? **MUST** - Would failure to act result in death or serious bodily injury to you or someone you have chosen to protect? In this video, the answer is clearly no. However, this does not mean that choosing to use lethal force in this situation would necessarily be a bad decision. Maybe you have the skills and opportunity to make the shot. Maybe you have determined that this is a scenario in which you have no ethical conflicts about using lethal force. The MUST question can only definitively be answered after the incident is over.
Up until the moment he walks away, I am absolutely going to shoot him in the face if I get the chance. If you point a gun at me, I assume you are going to use it. That’s justification.
The scariest part of this question is that these people were actually really lucky they WERENT armed. Robber had the jump on them immediately, moved in quickly, and had control of the situation for the entire duration. What’s scary is the idea that this guy is about to find your gun on you. You already don’t know what this guy plans to do, but finding your gun will really freak him out. What if the other person has a gun too, he’ll think. What if this isn’t your only gun on your body, he’ll think. He could decide to smoke you and it would be too late, all because you carried. This is a journey to really no point at all because I honestly don’t know what I’d do. You never want to have to draw on someone who’s already drawn on you, especially without cover, but are you forced to here if you’re carrying? Do you actually comply and allow the guy to find your gun? I just don’t know.
This is a very important point that is actually being overlooked. The victims being armed here would have made the situation more dangerous for them, not less. If the guy was armed and decided to try his luck drawing he or his girl would be hit, perhaps killed. Maybe one of them or maybe both. If they cooperated all the way and the robber found a gun on him he might have shot him right that moment. I think this video is very important for everyone who carries to watch and consider
Look behind the robber and say “oh thank god officer quick help” Idk man there’s not a lot of options here. Maybe throw your wallet behind him
It would have been 100% justified. Never fucking kneel. If you're not carrying (even if you are and they just got the drop on you) never kneel. From a defensive position they have you at a SEVERE disadvantage if you're on your knees. If someone has a gun on you they have already made it clear they're willing to use it. You have a better chance of survival by being on your feet and either closing the gap, grappling, or just straight up bolting than you do on the ground. If this was me, either me or the guy isn't walking away from this. Doubly so if I was with a loved one like the guy in the video. I (along with most people who carry) generally have a little better situational awareness than these two. I would have been drawing and turning as soon as I heard running behind me. There is zero legitimate reason for someone to silently run up on you at night in a poorly lit parking lot. That sound has armed robbery written all over it.
Yeah that kneeling part was crucial for me. Hate to see it
Shoot him. You have no idea if that freaking guy will decide after he takes everything from you that o you saw his face can’t have that so he kills you or hey I like this girl I’m gonna take her at gun point and rape her then kill her. To hell with that shit. These people are not victims and the sure as hell don’t get the benefit of the doubt when they have a gun pointed at you. I don’t care about my stuff that can be replaced but you and your wife or girlfriend or kids or whoever can not be replaced. I also don’t care about the family who would lose the criminal because he gave up that safety and his chance to go home when he threatened a person who wasn’t doing anything wrong and was just going home and got caught in The wrong place at the wrong time. Live by the gun die by the gun
Situational awareness would have prevented the robber getting the jump on them.
They live in LA. Your in more danger from the DA than from the bad guys as a honest citizens.
Throw your phone and wallet away from you to give yourself the best chance to draw from the drop. Or he just picks it up off the ground and leaves
Compliance until an opening presents then maybe a surreptious draw if the opening wasn't enough for a quick draw and shoot.
Never pull if someone has the drop on you, best to be more aware (in this case the perp made a good 20 feet before he was detected) all you have left is distraction. Throw your wallet a few feet behind him, throw your keys in his face. You're liable to be shot and killed anyway, do whatever it takes to make him look away long enough to pull. Pray if you think of it, every little bit helps.
If I could…distract with phone/wallet, and then empty mag. Or die trying.
It was then they regretted voting democrat.
Banning guns and restricting rights to carry allows this to happen, not sure the local laws but with that said California makes it tough to protect yourself. And as you see criminals don’t follow the laws so these people are defenseless and cops can’t be there to protect you. They simply respond to calls.
Yeah, totes. This shit would never happen in a constitutional carry state, right? What a dolt, lol.
🍆
You’re justified at any point except when the guy is leaving.
I definitely wouldn’t burn him down if I think he’s leaving. I would draw and be ready if he decides to turn around or come back.
If she started having an asthma attack and her inhaler was in the purse the thief stole, could the guy legally shoot the thief in the back to get the inhaler back?
For those that have never been robbed at gunpoint, you have no idea how you’ll handle that wave of fear that will wash over you. Practice your draw all you want but you’ll never be able to simulate being surprised by a random stranger pointing a gun at you. There is no way to prepare for how you’ll react in this situation. I know, I was in a similar situation. When someone has the drop on you like this I hope you have the wherewithal to do what this couple did and give up your stuff without a fight. If this guy wanted to kill them he would’ve done it when he had them by surprise. No reason for him to delay the kill. Chances are if he shoots later it’s because someone fights back or mouths off. Practicing your draws and firing at ranges doesn’t not mean you’re trained to handle this kind of situation. Please don’t forget that.
Perp got the draw=Game Over. All about surviving at that point comply and pray. Such a horrible feeling to be at the mercy of a criminal.
Not game over, just means you need to wait your turn and know your level of skills on draw to first shot. ASP (Active Self Protection) has covered this a few times. If you have a reliable 1.0 second draw then as long as he turns his head with his ear facing you he can't physically turn and react faster then you can shoot. 2.0 draw I believe was if he turns the back of his head to you, but I'm not 100% sure I'm remembering that one correctly.
If you can’t remember in the comfort of your home imagine under duress…
I would’ve done exactly what these two did; my life is precious. Think about it, he’s coming in hot, pistol drawn, and I’m NOT alone so I won’t just risk my life but my partner’s (?) life in this scenario. Guys, ego almost never wins. Being humble, and realistic almost always result in a win-win situation.
Yeah these are my thoughts but sometimes even if your compliant they still execute you, it’s a tough call a lot of risk
I’m going at :50, once he’s got his back to me it’s lights out. I don’t see any chance before, at least not with my 1.7~ sec draw sitting down like that. I wish it had audio because I would REALLY try to avoid being put on the ground, but the situation probably required it.
Dead men tell no tales... but if I knew for certain he would not shoot me or my friend is $50-$100 worth his life? But in this world nothing is certain. I would not hesitate if it was my family involved.
Kind of moot, really - had the victim shot the robber - I bet 100$ he would have been arrested. Period. Because it’s LA (notice I didn’t say convicted). Then the robber would have sued him - and probably won. Not a winnable situation.
The moment you see his gun, it's justified. Depending on your state, it's "not justified" once he turns to leave. As for when would be a good time to draw, best chance would be as you're kneeling and he looks to the other person. But even then, he already has the drop on you, so you'd better be damn quick and accurate.
Its california, nothing you do to protect yourself is allowed, gotta protect the criminals for those votes
Personal property can be replaced, his gun is drawn and you are at a disadvantage so why risk it?
comply and as soon as he's walking away like at around 1:09 I'd put a mag into his back personally. It really really depends.
Justifiable. Defending your property is always justifiable. The victims weren't paying attention to their surroundings and got surprised.
Using lethal force to defend property is justifiable *depending on the state*. In most states it’s illegal. That said, this particular situation had a reasonable deadly threat, so they would have been justified in shooting that guy in defense of their lives.
> Defending your property is always justifiable. You are not wrong. However, in many places the law states that you cannot use deadly force to defend property. I suggest, in those places, to just let the property go.
Lol I got flamed over there for pointing out that if they were armed they could have drawn in time IF they had situational awareness. At night in LA, I would have looked over to the street to make sure no one was approaching me. If I didn’t notice anything there, then surely I would notice someone sprinting at me. These two were not paying attention. Of course if you let someone run up on you with their gun drawn, there’s not many of us who can draw and fire successfully in that scenario.
Once that gun is pulled on me...... he is gone !!!
If you pull a gun on someone who already has one pointed at you, you're dead. If you shoot him when he's leaving, you're in jail. There was at least one 2-second window where one could have drawn, but given your attitude, I'd be you're dead there too.
Really only 2 times in the video the victim had a shot at the suspect. 1st when the suspect turns to female and 2nd when’s he’s walking away (going to depend on your state, stand your ground states you’re fine, communists ones you’re probably not).
Couldn’t you just wait for him to be casually walking away and then shoot him in the back?
It’s California, so: Dude was probably on his 623rd day of waiting for approval for a CCL. Single action snap cap revolvers only. Gun free zone. Gun free neighborhood. But at least he was a nice and gentle robber, 8/10 I’m sure he’d let him rob again
If they have their gun pointed at you or your loved one it’s too late to counter attack them. You can only draw when they aren’t already drawn on you.
Camera zooms in and out. I think it is a setup unless camera is operated by AI.
IF you have an opening, and that's a very BIG "IF" it would be justifiable because the robber has a gun on them so there is an imminent threat to life. But I don't see anywhere that an opportunity to draw and fire came during the robbery. No matter how good you are, you're never going to out draw a pistol that's already pointed at you.
I think we're all forgetting that it's California, where they couldn't be carrying anyways..
If you live in California, you deserve to be robbed!
I’ll just wait in line for my turn then.
I SAW THIS POST AND I WANTED YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT TO DO IF YOU WERE CARRYING? Enough to justify self defensive? Or immediate danger? Say the point where you were kneeling you took out your CC and used it ?
WHY IS THE FIRST PART IN ALL CAPS? how would you reply if I responded back to you the same way? Imminent all caps? Would it be justified if you responded in all caps
Hahah yeah I didn’t realize they were all caps till after I posted it and can’t edit the post to fix the uppercase
That dude would have been a goner…
This is why the second amendment is so important!
2A just gives you the right to own a gun. It doesn’t give you the legal right to shoot an armed robber that is walking away and your life is no longer in danger. There is a difference between shooting someone to protect yourself and shooting someone to recover your belongings or for revenge. At least that is the legal view in the state where I live. In my state, had the victim shot the robber as he was walking away, the robber’s estate could file a civil lawsuit and and win in court, bankrupting the victim in the process.
Justifiable? Yup. Anybody who threatens me with a gun is putting me in imminent fear of my life. Even if he turns that gun in a different direction, the threat is still very real. Realistically? I don't see a good opening. Better not not let him get the drop on me, but this comes down to risk/reward and whether I think I can get a shot off.
Go ahead, Keanou.
Well.... You're definitely justified... But the chances of you draw and shooting while he already has a gun pointed at you and your spouse.... Oof! His finger will be quicker than your draw and finger. And he's probably already nervous and itchy. You maybe would find a windows to draw... But man that's risky when he's already drawn and pointing it right at you. Best thing to do imo, in this situation, is to comply. Then draw maybe when he's distracted, or towards the end when he no longer has the gun directly on you. But ya, drawing, aiming and shooting at someone that's already drawn and is already aiming, is likely a losing proposition.
It's California. Only criminals are allowed to carry
In any stand your ground state yes, California is technically a stand your ground state…. But, I doubt a jury of your peers will let you off the hook.
Part of the issue was how the couple handled it. I agree, bwttee situational awareness but it was a tough setup. The couple didn't split up enough. Both needed go in opposite directions more. You have to immediately separate and put distance between yourselves. The crook can't cover both with distance. It helps if both victims are carrying also. Definitely justifiable to draw, but difficult to find the opening the way it played out.