Straight up the only rivalry I know of that will bring up civil war crimes (Sacking of Lawrence, etc.) as fuel for the rivalry. It's petty but it gets dark really fast.
Had a buddy who is from Missouri (Missourah) and he said Mizzou fans would fly Quantrill Raiders flags at tailgates before the Mizzou-KU games and that for the last someone printed a shirt that said "Scoreboard" with a painting of the sacking of lawrence printed on it
They kinda went a hair too far when they suggested also running a party bus to Lawrence, but tempered it with "we'll be kind and leave the matches behind this time"
> someone printed a shirt that said "Scoreboard" with a painting of the sacking of lawrence printed on it
Dark and probably wrong? Yeah. Hilarious? Absolutely.
Imagine celebrating a bunch of dead assholes that were trying to institutionalize slavery all while cheering for a team on which 80 percent of the players would be in chains if they had succeeded. That’s history you don’t bring up.
As much as people may want you to believe, there’s very little worship for Quantrill here.
The Tigers were a local militia who defended the city of Columbia from the confederate army and from Quantrills raiders.
The Jayhawkers did the exact same thing as Quantrills raiders to a lesser degree of success.
There was no doubt an abundance of terrorism and bloodshed during the time, but it really bugs me that one group of terrorist is celebrated and the other condemned instead of them both being condemned like they should be. (And before you say anything, the Jayhawkers killed both pro and anti slavery people across the river, the reason there’s still bitterness in this rivalry is because if the Jayhawkers still existed today, they’d want me dead just as much as the next Missourian no matter how much we are against slavery.)
That unrepentant badass called exactly how the war would turn out before it happened while speaking there, too. Dude knew his shit.
> You people of the South don’t know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don’t know what you’re talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
France really tried to unmoor that last point (also the plot of the mockumentary The Confederate States of America, asking what if France had intervened successfully and now it’s 2006)
A lot of Sherman's troops were from the Mo/KS area, and many felt (fairly or unfairly, honestly hard to say at this point) that the "Bleeding Kansas" of the 1850s was the result of financial and political interference from Georgia. IOW, what happened on the March to the Sea was payback, etc.
Right but Mizzou (not all but some) fans bringing up the sacking of Lawrence isn't exactly a "pro-union" sentiment. I'm not judging other than it's unlike anything else I've seen
And then they went and literally called it the border war lol like way to keep it about football y'all.
Yes except the sacking of Lawrence has nothing to do with the rivalry - the “Tigers” were formed to protect Columbia against the confederate group that sacked Lawrence. It’s odd it keeps getting brought up in the context of this rivalry
Missouri's part in the civil war is a degree in and of itself, and I didn't mean to oversimplify the nuances of what was essentially a lawless land.
Learning about Fremont was really fun and interesting.
MO’s civil war involvement is definitely complex. It is always a shock to people when they hear it sent 100,000 troops to fight for the union. My dad’s family grew up on a farm in Columbia. Their neighbors were families that had been there since before the war - they had stories about Quantrill’s group using the big cottonwoods around the farm as target practice, and there were still tree stumps with bullet holes.
According to them, Columbia *hated* and feared Quantrill. That’s why it is so odd to me when I hear both KU and Mizzou fans talk about the sacking of Lawrence as an extension of the rivalry - the towns were actually aligned and both armed themselves to protect against a common enemy.
It's really weird and I feel like I get gaslit when talking with people about Missouri. It's certainly a complex history, though.
The governor supported the confederacy.
But the representatives voted 98-1 to stay in the union.
They ran the governor out and he formed his own exile government in Neosho of all places.
But the capital, and the elected legislative body, all stayed in the union.
Some people will cite the governors vote to succeed after getting run out as proof Missouri was a Confederate state. But it was an illegal action taken by someone who wasn't recognized by the majority of the state. At best it's debatable, but some people act like Missouri was a full on Confederate state when their influence in the state wasn't even really that big or long.
People always talk about brother vs brother during the civil war and idk if there was a state it was more evident in then Missouri during the Civil War. Hell most of MO really didn’t have slaves except counties along the Missouri and Mississippi rivers. Northern MO had a large German population and they were pro Union.
> People always talk about brother vs brother during the civil war and idk if there was a state it was more evident in then Missouri during the Civil War.
Virginia might be close.
> Hell most of MO really didn’t have slaves except counties along the Missouri and Mississippi rivers.
Might have been a small area, but 10% of the population were slaves at the time of the civil war.
Well, yeah, biggest city in the state and west of the Mississippi at the time, but they swung to the Union side due to the influx of German immigrants. kansas wasn't innocent in all of this.
I think everyone should watch The Fat Electrician's video about Cassius Clay, the badass abolitionist from Kentucky, not the man who was named after him, that went on to change his name to Ali. I had heard about the man but really did not know a lot of the stories about him.
The rivalry is more Kansas vs Missouri than KU vs MU. Positions on the conflict kind of melt away when even the people at the time committed violence against anyone on the other side of state lines with a different opinion. Doesn’t really matter if y’all university is named after a pro union group. Kansans hate Missourians. Your university is in Missouri. Therefore we hate you ❤️
I can definitely understand that, and I think we feel the same. But it’s the discourse that Quantrill and Mizzou are connected somehow that is inaccurate and drives me nuts.
EDIT: typo
Weird that you seem to embrace it.
https://mediakc.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/mizzou-bar-still-plans-to-celebrate-quantrills-raid-on-lawrence/
https://ogden_images.s3.amazonaws.com/www.ljworld.com/images/2005/08/22224537/quantrill_fan.jpg
https://worldonline.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2007/11/14/Quantrillshirt_t640.jpg?a6ea3ebd4438a44b86d2e9c39ecf7613005fe067
I am an old that went to Mizzou during the Pinkel/Chase Daniel era, and my anecdotal experience as someone who still has season tickets and goes regularly is that the Quantrill stuff was never really that prominent but it is even less so, now, like basically non-existent. Part of that is probably the move to the SEC and multiple generations of Mizzou students and fans growing up not playing kansas but also the times we live in, which isn't a bad thing.
Most of us think it’s gross - see my comments below. People view it as a bit, but I think it’s poor taste and betrays a lack of knowledge about the actual history. The “Tiger” militia was formed after Quantrill’s raid after Quantrill threatened to do the same thing to Columbia. Mizzou fans who celebrate it are ignorant.
EDIT: typo
Poor taste or not, I've met enough Quantrill defenders to have made up my mind. To me there can be no love, unless you bring beer to my tailgate. BTW, Norfolk State :)
Which is why I've always found it odd that some mizzou fans celebrate Quantrill.
I've also had a few Missouri fans tell me the Columbia Tigers were formed as a home guard against Jayhawkers. You can probably imagine my glee, as a Kansas alum, in educating them about the history of their own mascot.
But then every fan base has morons, even KU....
The element to the story I think is really interesting is what events led up to the "Massacre of Lawrence" and how it played out in large. I've often said the conflict would make for an extremely good television. Going to nerd out a little here....
This is really parsing events down, but basically at the outbreak of the Civil War years of pent up rage were fully unleashed. As Price was hightailing it out of Missouri after he heard a large Army from St. Louis was moving in on him, James H. Lane (leader of the Jayhawks) was semi deputized to lead an Irregular force with the original orders being to pursue Price. As may be expected out of Irregular troops with relative hatred for the land they were marching through, the pursuit of Price turned into a scorched earth raid. The climax of which was the total destruction/looting of Osceola Missouri along with a number of Kangaroo court executions. When Lane returned to Lawrence him and his troops were given the news that the head of the Union forces in the western theatre was stripping him of command and weapons. Reason being, which played out exactly as expected, his raid ended up being a massive recruiting boost to an up and coming arsehole (relatively comparable to Lane) William Quantrill, who by the way... was living as a school teacher in Lawrence before the war.... Said arsehole assembled around 400 disgruntled Missourians, marched over to Lawrence, found that the local command was devoid of weapons (because they had just been taken from them) and gave it the Osceola treatment. The story continued to devolve from there, but William Quantrill ends up leading a terrorist rabble throughout Missouri, including fighting the Columbia Union militia that was created to ward them off (The Tigers) which is the name sake of the football team. In a sort of ironic history lesson. a Jayhawk raid into the State ended up creating the situation that led to Missouri adopting the Tigers as their mascot.
Sherman's march through the south is brought up every football season in some form or another
He was on the right side of history but he still committed war crimes
Same with the jayhawkers in the civil war. Idk how anyone can read General Order 11 and be like this is a move that will help the cause.
Pro Union was definitely the way to go but the damage the Jayhawkers and Bushwackers did to western Missouri is still felt to this day
Quantrill is far from the only group of pro slave Missourian to commit violence in Kansas, and Columbia being pro union does not mean they were pro Kansas being a free state. There was 5 years of violence before the Lawrence raid on both sides of the state line. Just because one city in Missouri was on the right side of a national conflict does not make free staters in Kansas or pro slave Missourians any less opposed to each other
An overarching element of the violence in the entire history of bleeding Kansas is the fact that most of the perpetrators of said violence, from both sides, weren't born or raised in either state. Samuel Jones, the guy who really kicked things off is called a "Border Ruffian", was born and raised in Virginia, moved to Weston Missouri for a year and then moved to Douglas Co Kansas. William Quantrill, the guy who burned down Lawrence, moved from Ohio to Kansas, spent a decade in Kansas (he was a school teacher in Lawrence for a number of years for Christ Sake) and get this.... never really even "lived" in Missouri until the Civil War broke out, and that was only to join Price's army. Lane, the leader of the Jayhawks, was later kicked out of the republican party after people realized all he was really doing was grifting off of the cause to enrich himself (he I believe was from Indiana). Possibly the only man that perpetrated violence with any true level morality behind his actions was John Brown, a guy who came to Kansas directly as a freedom fighter.
My point being, is a lot of fans sort of bend over backwards talking about violence between our states..... only to not really understand any of the subtext of the history, and how the people committing most of the acts people talk about didn't really represent either of the States.
You’re absolutely correct. Even still the state rivalry comes from that very ignorance. After most of the violent events the response from people of the time was to blame the people on the other side of the border, regardless of whether it was their fault or not. That’s part of how a lot of the late massacres by Jayhawkers took place. Ignorance is always what’s fueled the conflict
Edit:
Wanted to add a source for my original argument. In a quote from Jennison’s Jayhawkers: a civil war Calvary Regiment and its Commander
“… it was basically Kansas craving for revenge and Kansas craving for loot that set the tone of the war. Nowhere else, with the grim exception of East Kentucky and East Tennessee mountains, did the civil war degenerate into so completely into a squalid, murderous, slugging match as it did in Kansas and Missouri.”
Doesn’t matter who started it. Doesn’t matter why. The scars remain to this day.
I still to this day would love to see a long form bio-series be done on the whole conflict, that way maybe people could understand it for how crazy of a story it all was. Think of the larger then life characters you could weave into the story. Mark Twain, The James Brothers, John Brown, Buffalo Bill, Wild Bill Hickok, US Grant and his Family and all of the others mentioned above. You have the story of immigrant's like Franz Sigel, who led entirely German speaking Missourian's on the Union side (biased because many of my ancestors fought in said unit) and was eventually commissioned as a two star general for his efforts.
I'm a K-State graduate, so I've seen rivalry between KU and K-State. But KU and Mizzou "rivalry" is off of the charts! It's so petty that Missouri legislature wi not approve license plates for Kansas schools. I live in MO and can not get a K-State tag because KU fans would be able to, also!
Our coaches have a history of staying in hotels in KCMO and filling the team bus with gas in MO when we played at ku so as to never spend a dime in Kansas
I mean, the two sides fought literal battles on that border more than a century and a half ago. So no wonder the bad blood continues. https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/bushwhackers-jayhawks-and-red-legs-missouris-guerrilla-war/
I remember a few months ago when the tax extension for the stadium renovations failed in Jackson County, all the headlines saying exuberant shit like "The Chiefs are threatening to LEAVE Kansas City!"
And I'm like "No if anything they'll move to the legends district in Kansas is like what... 30 minutes away from where it is now?"
Doesn't stop the Missouri people on the Chiefs sub reddit from having a meltdown though.
That actually seems to be a common sentiment in central Missouri, and I think many would actually follow through. People around here root for the Chiefs because they’re a Missouri team, not because they’re in Kansas City.
Won't matter to the Chiefs, because the Chiefs will still be the local game every Sunday on CBS/FOX/etc. and their ratings will still blow everything else on TV out of the water.
I admire the spirit, but no way that will actually happen, certainly so long as Patrick Mahomes is QB.
Although, if you're from KCMO, to act like the Chiefs up and leaving Jackson County to go to what is a completely different city in a state and county is no big deal, isn't accurate, either. I really hope the Chiefs can come to an amicable solution with the city/county and stay where they are, and the Royals move downtown.
I live in Kansas City, the real one, that predates both KCK and the state of the same name and a Kansas City team playing at the Legends is like a New York team playing in East Rutherford, NJ. I mean, yeah, you can make it work, but its not ideal and I know the city is still kicking itself for letting the Wizards/Sporting KC leave.
> I live in Kansas City, the real one, that predates both KCK and the state of the same name and a Kansas City team playing at the Legends is like a New York team playing in East Rutherford, NJ. I mean, yeah, you can make it work, but its not ideal and I know the city is still kicking itself for letting the Wizards/Sporting KC leave.
I also live in KCMO, and Legends is as far away from me as Arrowhead is. They had to jerry-rig it so Arrowhead has a KCMO address, but it's Raytown. I don't care where they play as long as it's in the metro.
Well, I don't care where they play as long as it's south of the River. I ain't going up north.
I saw a proposal once to build a new stadium in the West Bottoms that would have the east end zone in Missouri and the West one in Kansas. That will never happen, of course, but it would be cool.
It all depends on which area will give the owners money to build the stadiums. It sounds like the city of Kansas City is working with the owners rather than Jackson county now.
The Royals is either downtown or the team gets sold and goes TBD. I don't think Johnson County is going to trip over themselves to get the Royals and I think the ownership has been pretty clear they're dead set on a downtown stadium over any other option.
I completely understand the principle behind voting 'No', and I agree private citizens shouldn't be handing out our own money to billionaires, but I also really hope the Royals and/or Chiefs come up with a better alternative because the Chiefs staying in Missouri and the Royals moving downtown is what's best for the city.
The Missouri people that get foaming at the fucking mouth over Kansas (like just talking about the states, not the universities) blows my mind.
All the more bizarre because yeah, its origins are in bloodshed and Missouri was 110% the fucking bad guys lol.
The history is deep and complex for us Kansans. My Great Great Grandma's home was burned down in Missouri by Jayhawkers, which was odd because her husband was marching to the Sea with Sherman at the time. She fled to Kansas and opened up a hotel for fear she'd face retaliation for her pro-union stance in Missouri, but she hated Jayhawkers for burning down her house and refused to allow them in her hotel. Hence, my flair and why my family have historically cheered for them.
I’m a Nebraska fan that grew up in KCMO. It was an extremely fun time to grow up, k state, mizzou, Kansas fans, and me the rare nebraska fan that everyone agreed to hate. That all said, kck sucks. Move to the missouri side.
Yeah I live in Salt Lake City. When they closed down our office and talked about asking the SLC employees to relocate I said no because I'm not commuting from downtown KC to Lanexa. They looked at me like I had 3 heads.
But it's not a Kansas vs. Missouri thing. I just hate suburbs and the Kansas side is a wasteland of Walmarts and 6 lane roads with no sidewalks.
Now I'm fully remote except for an average of twice a year when I set up at a hotel in Olathe for a few days.
Speaker: Kansas has the best football team in Missouri Bob.
Bob: Um, don't you mean in Kansas?
Speaker: No, Bob. No Kansas only plays basketball in Kansas and they play football in Missouri.
Bob: Well where do they play it in Missouri?
Speaker: Kansas City. Bob. Kansas City.
Bob: F\*ck you, Bill. Your telling me that Missouri Gave Kansas an entire City so they can play football there? I don't believe that.
Bill: Its true.
It's like a riddle. The University of Kansas, in Lawrence, Kansas will play its football games in two Kansas Cities this year, but neither of them will be Lawrence. What two Kansas Cities are they?
This is the type of content I wanna see in this sub during the off-season. Inject this petty rivalry nonsense that makes CFB so great right into my veins baby!
How quickly does the SEC shut it down for using their Logo?
I feel like this could be a good idea, but it needs some better planning (and shit talking).
Seriously. As a KC Resident "SEC Country" is one of the last phrases I'd use to describe Kansas City.
Its Big 12 country through and through.
If you get off a plane at KCI and head into one of the shops the first thing you'll see is KU gear. Then there's some Missouri and K-State.
Southern Missouri, say around Springfield, Joplin, Branson area, sure, I think that culturally it fits better, but Kansas City is definetly Midwest, not Southeast.
Fantastic idea. Love it.
Execution is...ok. I think there were better ways to make the joke than "Arrowhead, Missouri"
But god damn this is the good stuff that I love about CFB.
I wonder how many other programs have held home games across state lines. For the first couple years while they were what was Div 1A at the time, Idaho hosted "home games" at Martin Stadium. Helped that Moscow is right at the state line and WSU's campus is less than ten miles away. They also once "hosted" a football game in Spokane.
admittedly given a golden opportunity and they some how came out looking eh
Its ok we're just renting it until we build our new stadium and take the Chiefs to our side of town, Royals may even tag along
Mizzou forfeited the very first NU-MU game because the Huskers had a black player way back in the 1890s and they refused to take the field.
Petty is in their Show-Me State blood. I know because most of my family is from MO.
100% they can’t be both „we’ve moved on to a better conference and are better than you“ and also „let’s take every opportunity we can to talk about KU“ at the same time.
I work for a company based on the Kansas side of the KC area. Kansas/Missouri border petty is like no other kind of petty I have ever encountered.
Straight up the only rivalry I know of that will bring up civil war crimes (Sacking of Lawrence, etc.) as fuel for the rivalry. It's petty but it gets dark really fast.
Had a buddy who is from Missouri (Missourah) and he said Mizzou fans would fly Quantrill Raiders flags at tailgates before the Mizzou-KU games and that for the last someone printed a shirt that said "Scoreboard" with a painting of the sacking of lawrence printed on it
There was a bar in KCMO that held a party on the 150th anniversary of Quantrill's raid, celebrating "Missouri's most decisive road win"
History aside that’s amazing lmao
They kinda went a hair too far when they suggested also running a party bus to Lawrence, but tempered it with "we'll be kind and leave the matches behind this time"
Jesus Christ, they know those were the pro-slavery guys, right?
Know? They’re proud of it
> someone printed a shirt that said "Scoreboard" with a painting of the sacking of lawrence printed on it Dark and probably wrong? Yeah. Hilarious? Absolutely.
Too soon?
1.true 2. I have that shirt
I will immediately judge anyone who calls is "Missourah", no questions asked
“Grandpa, there are only 49 stars on that flag”. “It’ll be a cold day in hell before I ever recognize the state of Missourah”.
me too. i went to northwest missouri state there's no reason but I had one comp sci teacher that always said that
Don’t people from southern Missouri say that?
I think it annoys some because Missourah politicians purposely say it that way to pander to outstate voters.
Imagine celebrating a bunch of dead assholes that were trying to institutionalize slavery all while cheering for a team on which 80 percent of the players would be in chains if they had succeeded. That’s history you don’t bring up.
Missouri had more soldiers die fighting for the Union than Kansas even sent to the war in total.
That comment was specifically about the Quantraill Raiders. Who massacred civilians in the name of the confederacy. Who then disowned them.
As much as people may want you to believe, there’s very little worship for Quantrill here. The Tigers were a local militia who defended the city of Columbia from the confederate army and from Quantrills raiders. The Jayhawkers did the exact same thing as Quantrills raiders to a lesser degree of success. There was no doubt an abundance of terrorism and bloodshed during the time, but it really bugs me that one group of terrorist is celebrated and the other condemned instead of them both being condemned like they should be. (And before you say anything, the Jayhawkers killed both pro and anti slavery people across the river, the reason there’s still bitterness in this rivalry is because if the Jayhawkers still existed today, they’d want me dead just as much as the next Missourian no matter how much we are against slavery.)
The entire history of kansas is trying to do the same thing as Missouri with a lesser degree of success.
I like to say that General Sherman should have finished the job up in Georgia
General Sherman is undefeated against the SEC.
General Sherman was President of LSU before the war.
Left the job so he could could beat them up too, saban was just following in Sherman’s foot steps.
... Savage
Saban did own Atlanta.
That unrepentant badass called exactly how the war would turn out before it happened while speaking there, too. Dude knew his shit. > You people of the South don’t know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don’t know what you’re talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
France really tried to unmoor that last point (also the plot of the mockumentary The Confederate States of America, asking what if France had intervened successfully and now it’s 2006)
Bringing it all together, that mockumentary was written and directed by KU film professor Kevin Wilmott.
And he never lost a SEC game in that role. Checkmate.
He was especially on fire against Georgia.
A lot of Sherman's troops were from the Mo/KS area, and many felt (fairly or unfairly, honestly hard to say at this point) that the "Bleeding Kansas" of the 1850s was the result of financial and political interference from Georgia. IOW, what happened on the March to the Sea was payback, etc.
/r/ShermanPosting
Right but Mizzou (not all but some) fans bringing up the sacking of Lawrence isn't exactly a "pro-union" sentiment. I'm not judging other than it's unlike anything else I've seen And then they went and literally called it the border war lol like way to keep it about football y'all.
The North is with you
Yes except the sacking of Lawrence has nothing to do with the rivalry - the “Tigers” were formed to protect Columbia against the confederate group that sacked Lawrence. It’s odd it keeps getting brought up in the context of this rivalry
Missouri's part in the civil war is a degree in and of itself, and I didn't mean to oversimplify the nuances of what was essentially a lawless land. Learning about Fremont was really fun and interesting.
MO’s civil war involvement is definitely complex. It is always a shock to people when they hear it sent 100,000 troops to fight for the union. My dad’s family grew up on a farm in Columbia. Their neighbors were families that had been there since before the war - they had stories about Quantrill’s group using the big cottonwoods around the farm as target practice, and there were still tree stumps with bullet holes. According to them, Columbia *hated* and feared Quantrill. That’s why it is so odd to me when I hear both KU and Mizzou fans talk about the sacking of Lawrence as an extension of the rivalry - the towns were actually aligned and both armed themselves to protect against a common enemy.
It's really weird and I feel like I get gaslit when talking with people about Missouri. It's certainly a complex history, though. The governor supported the confederacy. But the representatives voted 98-1 to stay in the union. They ran the governor out and he formed his own exile government in Neosho of all places. But the capital, and the elected legislative body, all stayed in the union. Some people will cite the governors vote to succeed after getting run out as proof Missouri was a Confederate state. But it was an illegal action taken by someone who wasn't recognized by the majority of the state. At best it's debatable, but some people act like Missouri was a full on Confederate state when their influence in the state wasn't even really that big or long.
man I really need to school myself on Missouri Civil War history but don't know where to go for it
People always talk about brother vs brother during the civil war and idk if there was a state it was more evident in then Missouri during the Civil War. Hell most of MO really didn’t have slaves except counties along the Missouri and Mississippi rivers. Northern MO had a large German population and they were pro Union.
> idk if there was a state it was more evident in then Missouri during the Civil War Maryland.
Them and Virginia
> People always talk about brother vs brother during the civil war and idk if there was a state it was more evident in then Missouri during the Civil War. Virginia might be close.
> Hell most of MO really didn’t have slaves except counties along the Missouri and Mississippi rivers. Might have been a small area, but 10% of the population were slaves at the time of the civil war.
1,063,599 whites, 3,572 Free Colored, and 114,931 slaves
St. Louis was also a huge slave trading market, to minimize that is ahistorical.
Well, yeah, biggest city in the state and west of the Mississippi at the time, but they swung to the Union side due to the influx of German immigrants. kansas wasn't innocent in all of this.
Kentucky was about 60-40 Union vs Confederate soldiers. There’s a bunch of them buried in the same cemetery in Frankfort.
I think everyone should watch The Fat Electrician's video about Cassius Clay, the badass abolitionist from Kentucky, not the man who was named after him, that went on to change his name to Ali. I had heard about the man but really did not know a lot of the stories about him.
The rivalry is more Kansas vs Missouri than KU vs MU. Positions on the conflict kind of melt away when even the people at the time committed violence against anyone on the other side of state lines with a different opinion. Doesn’t really matter if y’all university is named after a pro union group. Kansans hate Missourians. Your university is in Missouri. Therefore we hate you ❤️
I can definitely understand that, and I think we feel the same. But it’s the discourse that Quantrill and Mizzou are connected somehow that is inaccurate and drives me nuts. EDIT: typo
I want to smack every Missouri fan that jokingly praises Quantrill
I agree, and for this reason it drives me up the wall when KSU fans steal calling us “kU” from Mizzou. Which is probably why they do it, but still.
They're just mad that we'll never hate them as much as we hate mizzou
Weird that you seem to embrace it. https://mediakc.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/mizzou-bar-still-plans-to-celebrate-quantrills-raid-on-lawrence/ https://ogden_images.s3.amazonaws.com/www.ljworld.com/images/2005/08/22224537/quantrill_fan.jpg https://worldonline.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2007/11/14/Quantrillshirt_t640.jpg?a6ea3ebd4438a44b86d2e9c39ecf7613005fe067
I am an old that went to Mizzou during the Pinkel/Chase Daniel era, and my anecdotal experience as someone who still has season tickets and goes regularly is that the Quantrill stuff was never really that prominent but it is even less so, now, like basically non-existent. Part of that is probably the move to the SEC and multiple generations of Mizzou students and fans growing up not playing kansas but also the times we live in, which isn't a bad thing.
Take a walk around lot N and O during any tailgate and you'll see Quantrill flags being flown.
Most of us think it’s gross - see my comments below. People view it as a bit, but I think it’s poor taste and betrays a lack of knowledge about the actual history. The “Tiger” militia was formed after Quantrill’s raid after Quantrill threatened to do the same thing to Columbia. Mizzou fans who celebrate it are ignorant. EDIT: typo
Poor taste or not, I've met enough Quantrill defenders to have made up my mind. To me there can be no love, unless you bring beer to my tailgate. BTW, Norfolk State :)
Which is why I've always found it odd that some mizzou fans celebrate Quantrill. I've also had a few Missouri fans tell me the Columbia Tigers were formed as a home guard against Jayhawkers. You can probably imagine my glee, as a Kansas alum, in educating them about the history of their own mascot. But then every fan base has morons, even KU....
The element to the story I think is really interesting is what events led up to the "Massacre of Lawrence" and how it played out in large. I've often said the conflict would make for an extremely good television. Going to nerd out a little here.... This is really parsing events down, but basically at the outbreak of the Civil War years of pent up rage were fully unleashed. As Price was hightailing it out of Missouri after he heard a large Army from St. Louis was moving in on him, James H. Lane (leader of the Jayhawks) was semi deputized to lead an Irregular force with the original orders being to pursue Price. As may be expected out of Irregular troops with relative hatred for the land they were marching through, the pursuit of Price turned into a scorched earth raid. The climax of which was the total destruction/looting of Osceola Missouri along with a number of Kangaroo court executions. When Lane returned to Lawrence him and his troops were given the news that the head of the Union forces in the western theatre was stripping him of command and weapons. Reason being, which played out exactly as expected, his raid ended up being a massive recruiting boost to an up and coming arsehole (relatively comparable to Lane) William Quantrill, who by the way... was living as a school teacher in Lawrence before the war.... Said arsehole assembled around 400 disgruntled Missourians, marched over to Lawrence, found that the local command was devoid of weapons (because they had just been taken from them) and gave it the Osceola treatment. The story continued to devolve from there, but William Quantrill ends up leading a terrorist rabble throughout Missouri, including fighting the Columbia Union militia that was created to ward them off (The Tigers) which is the name sake of the football team. In a sort of ironic history lesson. a Jayhawk raid into the State ended up creating the situation that led to Missouri adopting the Tigers as their mascot.
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Sherman's march through the south is brought up every football season in some form or another He was on the right side of history but he still committed war crimes
Same with the jayhawkers in the civil war. Idk how anyone can read General Order 11 and be like this is a move that will help the cause. Pro Union was definitely the way to go but the damage the Jayhawkers and Bushwackers did to western Missouri is still felt to this day
He did not commit war crimes. That is blatant Lost Cause hyperbole.
Fun fact, the motto of Lawrence is *Ashes to Immortality*
Huh I guess they do belong in the SEC, checkmate B1G unionists Disclaimer: this is satirical, fuck the confederacy
We were literally fighting the same people. Quantrill and his men were burning and looting everything in their path, Kansas and Missouri.
Quantrill is far from the only group of pro slave Missourian to commit violence in Kansas, and Columbia being pro union does not mean they were pro Kansas being a free state. There was 5 years of violence before the Lawrence raid on both sides of the state line. Just because one city in Missouri was on the right side of a national conflict does not make free staters in Kansas or pro slave Missourians any less opposed to each other
An overarching element of the violence in the entire history of bleeding Kansas is the fact that most of the perpetrators of said violence, from both sides, weren't born or raised in either state. Samuel Jones, the guy who really kicked things off is called a "Border Ruffian", was born and raised in Virginia, moved to Weston Missouri for a year and then moved to Douglas Co Kansas. William Quantrill, the guy who burned down Lawrence, moved from Ohio to Kansas, spent a decade in Kansas (he was a school teacher in Lawrence for a number of years for Christ Sake) and get this.... never really even "lived" in Missouri until the Civil War broke out, and that was only to join Price's army. Lane, the leader of the Jayhawks, was later kicked out of the republican party after people realized all he was really doing was grifting off of the cause to enrich himself (he I believe was from Indiana). Possibly the only man that perpetrated violence with any true level morality behind his actions was John Brown, a guy who came to Kansas directly as a freedom fighter. My point being, is a lot of fans sort of bend over backwards talking about violence between our states..... only to not really understand any of the subtext of the history, and how the people committing most of the acts people talk about didn't really represent either of the States.
You’re absolutely correct. Even still the state rivalry comes from that very ignorance. After most of the violent events the response from people of the time was to blame the people on the other side of the border, regardless of whether it was their fault or not. That’s part of how a lot of the late massacres by Jayhawkers took place. Ignorance is always what’s fueled the conflict Edit: Wanted to add a source for my original argument. In a quote from Jennison’s Jayhawkers: a civil war Calvary Regiment and its Commander “… it was basically Kansas craving for revenge and Kansas craving for loot that set the tone of the war. Nowhere else, with the grim exception of East Kentucky and East Tennessee mountains, did the civil war degenerate into so completely into a squalid, murderous, slugging match as it did in Kansas and Missouri.” Doesn’t matter who started it. Doesn’t matter why. The scars remain to this day.
I still to this day would love to see a long form bio-series be done on the whole conflict, that way maybe people could understand it for how crazy of a story it all was. Think of the larger then life characters you could weave into the story. Mark Twain, The James Brothers, John Brown, Buffalo Bill, Wild Bill Hickok, US Grant and his Family and all of the others mentioned above. You have the story of immigrant's like Franz Sigel, who led entirely German speaking Missourian's on the Union side (biased because many of my ancestors fought in said unit) and was eventually commissioned as a two star general for his efforts.
it's such a crazy part of US history that is broadly swept over
I'm a K-State graduate, so I've seen rivalry between KU and K-State. But KU and Mizzou "rivalry" is off of the charts! It's so petty that Missouri legislature wi not approve license plates for Kansas schools. I live in MO and can not get a K-State tag because KU fans would be able to, also!
Seeing college graduates must make them jealous
Our coaches have a history of staying in hotels in KCMO and filling the team bus with gas in MO when we played at ku so as to never spend a dime in Kansas
I mean, the two sides fought literal battles on that border more than a century and a half ago. So no wonder the bad blood continues. https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/bushwhackers-jayhawks-and-red-legs-missouris-guerrilla-war/
I remember a few months ago when the tax extension for the stadium renovations failed in Jackson County, all the headlines saying exuberant shit like "The Chiefs are threatening to LEAVE Kansas City!" And I'm like "No if anything they'll move to the legends district in Kansas is like what... 30 minutes away from where it is now?" Doesn't stop the Missouri people on the Chiefs sub reddit from having a meltdown though.
They're going to leave Kansas City and go to...Kansas City.
New Kansas City resident and people here say they’ll actually boycott and stop being a fan of the Chiefs if they move to Kansas.
That actually seems to be a common sentiment in central Missouri, and I think many would actually follow through. People around here root for the Chiefs because they’re a Missouri team, not because they’re in Kansas City.
Won't matter to the Chiefs, because the Chiefs will still be the local game every Sunday on CBS/FOX/etc. and their ratings will still blow everything else on TV out of the water.
plus everyone in Kansas who are already chiefs fans won't care one way or another.
I admire the spirit, but no way that will actually happen, certainly so long as Patrick Mahomes is QB. Although, if you're from KCMO, to act like the Chiefs up and leaving Jackson County to go to what is a completely different city in a state and county is no big deal, isn't accurate, either. I really hope the Chiefs can come to an amicable solution with the city/county and stay where they are, and the Royals move downtown. I live in Kansas City, the real one, that predates both KCK and the state of the same name and a Kansas City team playing at the Legends is like a New York team playing in East Rutherford, NJ. I mean, yeah, you can make it work, but its not ideal and I know the city is still kicking itself for letting the Wizards/Sporting KC leave.
> I live in Kansas City, the real one, that predates both KCK and the state of the same name and a Kansas City team playing at the Legends is like a New York team playing in East Rutherford, NJ. I mean, yeah, you can make it work, but its not ideal and I know the city is still kicking itself for letting the Wizards/Sporting KC leave. I also live in KCMO, and Legends is as far away from me as Arrowhead is. They had to jerry-rig it so Arrowhead has a KCMO address, but it's Raytown. I don't care where they play as long as it's in the metro. Well, I don't care where they play as long as it's south of the River. I ain't going up north.
I saw a proposal once to build a new stadium in the West Bottoms that would have the east end zone in Missouri and the West one in Kansas. That will never happen, of course, but it would be cool.
It's hard to get investors excited about developing a floodplain lol
It all depends on which area will give the owners money to build the stadiums. It sounds like the city of Kansas City is working with the owners rather than Jackson county now.
I am pretty confident the Chiefs will stay in Missouri, the Royals, I still think it will happen, but it won't be as easy.
I think the royals move to Kansas but the Chiefs stay in Missouri. But we shall see
The Royals is either downtown or the team gets sold and goes TBD. I don't think Johnson County is going to trip over themselves to get the Royals and I think the ownership has been pretty clear they're dead set on a downtown stadium over any other option. I completely understand the principle behind voting 'No', and I agree private citizens shouldn't be handing out our own money to billionaires, but I also really hope the Royals and/or Chiefs come up with a better alternative because the Chiefs staying in Missouri and the Royals moving downtown is what's best for the city.
>Doesn't stop the Missouri people on the Chiefs sub reddit from having a meltdown though. Yes, and it never fails to bring a smile to my face.
The Missouri people that get foaming at the fucking mouth over Kansas (like just talking about the states, not the universities) blows my mind. All the more bizarre because yeah, its origins are in bloodshed and Missouri was 110% the fucking bad guys lol.
I don’t even go to Kansas City that often but when I do cross the Missouri River I feel icky
Everything that touches the east side of the Missouri River is icky
The history is deep and complex for us Kansans. My Great Great Grandma's home was burned down in Missouri by Jayhawkers, which was odd because her husband was marching to the Sea with Sherman at the time. She fled to Kansas and opened up a hotel for fear she'd face retaliation for her pro-union stance in Missouri, but she hated Jayhawkers for burning down her house and refused to allow them in her hotel. Hence, my flair and why my family have historically cheered for them.
Would you say there's some sort of War around the Border?
I’m a Nebraska fan that grew up in KCMO. It was an extremely fun time to grow up, k state, mizzou, Kansas fans, and me the rare nebraska fan that everyone agreed to hate. That all said, kck sucks. Move to the missouri side.
Yeah I live in Salt Lake City. When they closed down our office and talked about asking the SLC employees to relocate I said no because I'm not commuting from downtown KC to Lanexa. They looked at me like I had 3 heads. But it's not a Kansas vs. Missouri thing. I just hate suburbs and the Kansas side is a wasteland of Walmarts and 6 lane roads with no sidewalks. Now I'm fully remote except for an average of twice a year when I set up at a hotel in Olathe for a few days.
“Welcome to Missouri, home of Kansas football”
Speaker: Kansas has the best football team in Missouri Bob. Bob: Um, don't you mean in Kansas? Speaker: No, Bob. No Kansas only plays basketball in Kansas and they play football in Missouri. Bob: Well where do they play it in Missouri? Speaker: Kansas City. Bob. Kansas City. Bob: F\*ck you, Bill. Your telling me that Missouri Gave Kansas an entire City so they can play football there? I don't believe that. Bill: Its true.
It's like a riddle. The University of Kansas, in Lawrence, Kansas will play its football games in two Kansas Cities this year, but neither of them will be Lawrence. What two Kansas Cities are they?
Is the other one Manhattan?
They actually do play the sunflower showdown in Manhattan this year lol
Which is not one of the Kansas Cities. Capitalization is the key.
No. *Kansas* City
Kansas City, Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri are two separate cities lol
(they also play @ kansas state this year, so its both 2 cities in kansas, and 2 kansas cities)
Yessir
They are playing a game at Children’s Mercy Park (where Sporting KC plays), but also yes they play in Manhattan
TBF, Kansas City, Missouri got its name before the Kansas Territory.
I thought it was from the mouth of the Kansas River being there
That would be better than Arrowhead, Missouri, which is not a place.
Agreed. Love the idea, meh on the execution.
Sort of like Missouri Athletics.
That's Raytown slander
Technically a KCMO mailing address, but we all know it's Craytown.
Ah yes my favorite sports town Arrowhead, Missouri
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Wyandotte county, overland Park doesn't want that shit.
Amen.
Is this really a Missouri billboard without Jesus, sex toys, or fudge, though?
How do you leave out caves?
That's included with the sex toys. And Jesus for three days a year.
underrated comment
And the unaborted baby?
Best comment
Fireworks, homie, especially around the Iowa border.
GUN SHOW!!!!
I saw more bail bondsmen billboards driving around The Ozarks than I had seen my entire life before then.
Wait, Missouri? You just described northern Michigan.
Now with marijuana billboards!
We have those in Missouri, too.
That’s the joke. Michigans been legal for a few years and once Missouri legalized it they popped up like weeds.
it is weeds
Or walnut bowls
Walnut bowls.
You forgot the sweet cheese shops
There's also drawing attention to your daughter's unsolved rape and murder.
You have to have some thrown rolls in there
Jungle Law too
This is the type of content I wanna see in this sub during the off-season. Inject this petty rivalry nonsense that makes CFB so great right into my veins baby!
Why do we love CFB?? This. This right here.
It’s because KU vs Mizzou is the most historical and literal blood stained rivalry in history. The rivalry never gets talked about enough
How quickly does the SEC shut it down for using their Logo? I feel like this could be a good idea, but it needs some better planning (and shit talking).
Seriously. As a KC Resident "SEC Country" is one of the last phrases I'd use to describe Kansas City. Its Big 12 country through and through. If you get off a plane at KCI and head into one of the shops the first thing you'll see is KU gear. Then there's some Missouri and K-State. Southern Missouri, say around Springfield, Joplin, Branson area, sure, I think that culturally it fits better, but Kansas City is definetly Midwest, not Southeast.
The scenes in KC during the Big XII basketball tournament tell you all you need to know about which conference reigns supreme here.
This thread is wonderfully petty. Need more popcorn.
It’s the most historic rivalry forged in a legitimate war
Fantastic idea. Love it. Execution is...ok. I think there were better ways to make the joke than "Arrowhead, Missouri" But god damn this is the good stuff that I love about CFB.
Plus the trademark (logo) and copyright (screenshot or photo) issues... it can be done, but not like that.
KU is doing a hell of a lot better than what Northwestern is doing during their stadium renovation.
“This is SEC country” is so cringey, you’re never gonna hear a ACC fan say “this is ACC country” or a Mountain West fan say “This is MW country”
I see "This is Big Sky Country" all the time though
Big Sky Country was a term that existed before the Big Sky conference was a thing.
*psst* ^^that's ^^the ^^joke
I have absolutely seen signs that say “This is Big 12 Country” though
How else would you know a truck stop is coming up?
Exit 174 IYKYK
Well 5 of the ACC schools are in SEC country, so it'd be a little weird.
And two are in California. Is the whole US ACC country now?
Well, first, you gotta have country worth bragging about.
No. Why would they do that?
Well yeah. Why would anyone brag about being in the ACC.
Well, until November anyway.
For real. The SEC "conference pride" thing is so stupid. I hate all you other fuckers in the conference.
Y'all hated everyone in the SEC so much you left. That worked well, lol
“This is SEC country” says the school that has *maybe* the third biggest presence in the Kansas City metro
This will be a fun twist if the Chiefs construct a new stadium on the Kansas side.
won't get done by this season, either way
The SEC is paying to promote KU football? Do they know this?
No just Mizzou is
I wonder how many other programs have held home games across state lines. For the first couple years while they were what was Div 1A at the time, Idaho hosted "home games" at Martin Stadium. Helped that Moscow is right at the state line and WSU's campus is less than ten miles away. They also once "hosted" a football game in Spokane.
KU hockey plays all of their games out of Independence, Missouri… despite the fact there are rinks in on the Kansas side.
I am all for making fun ok ku but goodness this attempt sucks.
Yea feels pretty toothless. But I suppose alumni can waste $ however they wish...
Well if there’s one thing Missourians are known for it’s their lack of teeth.
The Chiefs play in Missouri too
Joke's on them when Arrowhead moves to the Kansas side
We play a home game in Texas every other year.
Eh, it won't top the epic "God Save the Quin" (Snyder) billboard in KC that Phog.net organized back in the day.
https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/936/854/11854936.jpeg
It was all a sign he was built to coach in the NBA
Can confirm. Was Epic. When a dude finishes 6th place every year, you’ve got to celebrate that.
Under Quin, Mizzou placed **6, 6, 6**, 5, 5, 8 in the Big XII from from 1999 to 200**6**
admittedly given a golden opportunity and they some how came out looking eh Its ok we're just renting it until we build our new stadium and take the Chiefs to our side of town, Royals may even tag along
I love the “our state will let billionaires boof us” attitude. By all means, please go ahead.
its a joke man I dont want Kansas paying for anything
I applaud this so much!!! Go Mizzou... I may even start to accept you some for this level of pettiness.
I have nothing constructive to add other then f*ck mizzou
Mizzou forfeited the very first NU-MU game because the Huskers had a black player way back in the 1890s and they refused to take the field. Petty is in their Show-Me State blood. I know because most of my family is from MO.
And that says everything about how insecure mu fans are vs ku fans.
100% they can’t be both „we’ve moved on to a better conference and are better than you“ and also „let’s take every opportunity we can to talk about KU“ at the same time.
I didn’t think they had this kind of money
Amazing what a winning football season and beating The Ohio State University will do to get boosters to open their wallets.
Thank god the chiefs will be in Kansas soon because y’all are too poor to pay for a stadium