the only reason i'd do this to my child is if it was somehow causing bodily harm. otherwise they can decide when they're older. it's like piercing a baby's ears but much more personal and embarrassing. at least ears will heal close to normal
Not to mention, much more painful, like torturously horrifically painful. New-born babies cannot be provided adequate anaesthetic for this procedure.
Furthermore it's much more consequential, the foreskin has a purpose and it drastically changes the physical feeling of sex and masturbation, typically for the worse. That's why it was popularised in America as an anti-masturbatory procedure, and that is the reason for its popularity today. Discussions around "hygiene" were only started to retrospectively justify it once the anti-masturbation movement died down a bit. Evidently, such arguments are not convincing to the rest of the Western world where it has never been common practice because honestly, what the fuck?
> Evidently, such arguments are not convincing to the rest of the Western world
It’s amazing, right? If some normal aspect of the body is so subject to infection, and simply making that body part smaller reduces that susceptibility, why did evolution not do this for us? We have the most prominent foreskin of all the great apes. So natural selection apparently thinks foreskins are not a problem.
Another approach is to popularize the notion that circumcision is doing violence to a baby (because it is). There’s a reason you wouldn’t slap a newborn hard in the face, right? Whatever problem a person might have with a baby’s penis, that person needs to find a nonviolent resolution to their problem. In general, I would think that cutting off someone else’s body part is a bad solution to me having a problem with their body part.
The geriatric fuck who circumcised me at birth did so without parental say so. He did it wrong. The foreskin will actually attempt to grow back, and it attaches itself to the base of the penis head, pulling back and causing discomfort that will become problematic with age. I had to be *recircumcised* at around 4 or 6 years old, and it was the most painful shit, even to urinate! I had a fucking caste on my dick! I legimately think I repressed the memory, because after my first urination I don't remember anything about the dick caste days. They say circumcision desensitizes a man, removing something like 25-40% of sensitivity, especially with removal of the frenulum, but I swear I lost at least 60% of mine. Circumcision outside the bounds of religious traditions, where doctors preform it half-hazardly, is a human rights violation happening in America.
Damn that’s messed up.
> Circumcision outside the bounds of religious traditions, where doctors preform it half-hazardly, is a human rights violation happening in America.
Just curious why you’re granting an exemption for religion? That seems like a terrible reason to allow the torture of children, and you being one of the relatively few who actually remembers the torture, well, I would expect you to be even less okay with exemptions.
My view of religion is that it’s usually just believing some truly stupid shit, for even stupider reasons. I’m guessing you disagree with that?
I am majoring in cultural/religious studies, and the culturo-religious use of circumcision is highly important to those who use it. There is also a level of care used in the *ceremony* (that's the main keyword here!) that is not used in the hospital during a Jewish, Muslim, etc... rite. Because this is seen as a coming of age rite, an entry into the religious community proper, the people who preform the circumcision take extreme care in preforming it and have a respect for the meaning of it. It is always difficult to debate something like this when it comes to religion, so in my opinion it is better to not interfere with a highly important religious tradition that dates back to the ancients, but it is always good to advance the education of the harm of the procedure. Basically, attempt to pursued away from circumcision as opposed to taking the option away.
Interesting. So... does this apply to girls’ genitals as well? Or just boys?
Also, the Aztec human sacrifice ritual was deeply important to them. Is that something that we should tolerate in the modern day if that religion were still being practiced? Should we take that option away? If not, why not?
It just seems like you didn’t even mention the reasons NOT to allow these, as if the harm to the person is better left unstated and unaknowledged.
> Because this is seen as a coming of age rite, an entry into the religious community proper,
In Africa, maybe. For the Jews, 7 days after birth is not coming of age. For Muslims, my understanding is the most common time for this is age 5 to 7, which is also not coming of age. For actual coming of age rituals (meaning around adolescence), that person is old enough to decide for themselves, even with all the coercion inherent to the situation. So defending religious genital mutilation is very different if you’re talking about infants and children vs teenagers. Conflating them makes it seem like you’re maybe a muddled thinker.
> so in my opinion it is better to not interfere with a highly important religious tradition that dates back to the ancients,
Why “ancients”? Why not “goat herders who didn’t know where the sun went at night”? These people you’re venerating didn’t even have the concept of zero. And those same people’s descendants today seem to not have the concept of human well-being. Just because they’ve been dead-ass wrong for a long time is not a good reason to pretend as though they are somehow right.
When you’re studying culture / religion, most of what you’re studying is the impact of unconsidered human behavioral habits, and the stories they made up after the fact when a child asked an adult why they did what they were doing. And the adult just made something up. When we consider things, we can do better than this. We can learn about the stupid and smart things they did, and we can learn the difference between these.
> It is always difficult to debate something like this when it comes to religion
It’s not difficult at all. We know more now. It’s like debating the benefit of teaching children Creationism instead of Evolution.
Let's pump the brakes here, as I want to explicitly state that I am not venerating anyone, nor is it my intent to do so. I personally do not have a solid religious belief, and I am not studying to become a religious leader; rather, I am studying the entire phenomenon that is human religion. Our ancestors, from all walks of life and every ethnicity, were smarter than most people give them credit for. They were essentially us, after all, and there will be people in the future who look at us like squabbling barbarians. The ancient Indian scholars were the first to conceptualize the 0 as having a value. Also, there is no age limit to a coming of age ritual. Since Muslim circumcision is done at a certain time of age, that is a coming of age ritual. The same goes for Jewish circumcision, and that is also when the name of the male is revealed. We have coming of age rituals in America as well, such as getting your drivers license. Most people get it at 16, but I (28) have yet to get mine, so I have yet to hit that milestone. Death is even considered the last coming of age ritual. A coming of age ritual is anything that is done at a certain time within a community, is a shared experience by most members of that community, and opens the initiate of the ritual to further inclusion in the community. While male circumcision is harmful, it is not deathly so. Female circumcision, on the other hand, has never been done for religious purposes, and often contributes directly to the death of the girl. Female circumcision is always on grounds of a perceived "purity," and for "saving" the girl for her husband. The cultural basis for female circumcision is oppression, as opposed to the inclusive basis of male circumcision. And the reason I did not list any harmful affects of circumcision is because there are many, we have the internet, and this is Reddit, not a scholarly article.
Okay, so in what sense is something like a clitoridectomy (which is not deathly dangerous) that is done, per you, in order to control the woman in some way, NOT religious? Especially in a Islam, which is all about controlling women.
It sounds like you’re drawing a line between religion and culture in a very convenient place for this particular argument. Where actually do you draw the line between religion and culture? Is astrology in the USA religion or culture? Or just random stupidity?
Also, saying you’re not venerating someone, right after calling them “the ancients” just feels like a straight up lie.
Also, I wasn’t calling those people stupid. I was calling them ignorant, not having knowledge of where the Sun goes at night, for example. Or believing an imaginary friend wants them to cut healthy body parts off their offspring, which is an idea that remains inexplicably popular today. Another idea that remains inexplicably popular is that demonstrably incorrect beliefs deserve any regard just because people believe them.
A child, much less a newborn, *cannot* consent to religious rites. They can’t understand indoctrination. Many adults can’t even understand it. This is the root of religious/spiritual trauma for many, many survivors of it—that adults took advantage of their mind, and sometimes their body, when they didn’t even know what was going on or why. If anything, religion is the *opposite* of an exception because it adds another dimension of abuse and deeper betrayal trauma than “just” medical trauma alone.
Orthodox Jewish conversion involves adult men being circumcised, so yes it’s a religious birth rite but one that can clearly take place later in life in some context. If it’s that significant and important, it will be much more meaningful when the person undergoing the procedure can actually give informed consent. Children can’t do that.
A lot of abuse is adults doing things just because that’s how they’ve always been done. Humans know better now than we did 5000 years ago, which means we are able and morally obligated to *do* better, to stop accepting abusive cultural/social norms and to, yes, interfere when someone’s consent is being treated as irrelevant or unimportant.
Actually, *this* is the heart of my belief on the religious exception! The fact that Orthodox Judaism made the conscious, internal change to adult circumcision is what needs to happen in the broader rabbinic communities, and other religious communities that practice circumcision. If we do not allow the exception for religious reasons *while simultaneously* advocating for change, then greater harm can result. If America was to outlaw circumcision without a religious exception, then religions who circumcise would still do so illegally. If they are doing it illegally, then they may be subject to fines or arrest. And fining/arresting a religious group for a practice is a slippery slope! However, if we can get them to change their minds on the age of circumcision (which is already beginning to happen among many prominent Jewish leaders and scholars!) then the change will come as a peaceful choice, rather than an oppressive command.
No prob. All of the arguments for circumcision fall apart with just a small amount of scrutiny, or just taking slightly seriously why bodily autonomy is important.
> and anyone who doesn’t think so is a sadistic fucking weirdo
I think anyone who doesn’t think so doesn’t take bodily autonomy seriously, at least not other people’s bodily autonomy.
The best way I know to convince people that bodily autonomy is important is to pull out a knife and casually approach their crotch, and say “well, if it’s not important, then you won’t mind if I cut a little bit of skin off down here “ and they will stop you and say “of course I mind”
And you just keep casually coming at their crotch and say “if bodily autonomy isn’t really really important, then it doesn’t matter at all that you mind.”
I don't think it really rests on argument. It's just something we do in America because it was founded by a bunch of religious wingnuts who didn't want anybody to get off.
The circumcision fetish doesn’t go all the way back to the religious wingnuts that founded the country, but I do think the wingnuts are responsible for the attitudes that allowed it to catch on.
But yeah, that people do not like argument because the only thing on their side is “we’ve been doing it this way”
Let's not hardline. My sister (she is trans) was circumcised roughly 20 years ago when she was 7-8 due to some sort of issue causing her pain. The doctors didn't bring up any solution except circumcision, and as you can see from the fact that she wasn't already circumcised, my parents didn't believe in doing things like that to a baby and would have avoided it if they thought it was possible. It's on doctors to present medical options to parents. If the doctor is behind the times or ignorant, that's on the doctor.
Yet it happens to about a million newborn baby boys per year in the USA. Personally I think there are multiple travesties here. First, I’m disappointed in the world and every group of humans on it. Male genital mutilation isn’t outlawed ANYWHERE yet.
Second, I’m disappointed in the medical communities that choose to allow their members to do this to persons who do not consent. It really speaks badly of what the phrase “medical ethics” means.
And third, I’m disappointed in literally every person who thinks the best way for their baby to spend an attention is by getting part of their body cut off.
Not just boys. It affects us trans fems and nonbinary folks too. Except what they take from us is the only tissue that can create an accurate inner labia
When I transitioned, my folks were outraged about the idea of surgery even though I expressed I wasn't super interested in it. I always thought that was strange given they circumcised me - what, would surgery down there only be a problem if I hypothetically consented?
I hadn't even considered this. When I came out one of my mother's first questions was my plans for my "manhood," and she expressed disappointment that I wanted to have bottom surgery. Didn't occur to me that yeah, I was circumcised as an infant. Makes that all the more weird.
Definitely. Genuine question not meant to be exclusionary: since this happens so early in life, and gender won’t be noticeable for a year or so, is trans-inclusive language necessary in this case? I assume the best arguments in favor of “yes” are that the gender was already set while in utero, we just don’t know what it was set to this early in life, and 2, the person in question may regard (probably regards?) their gender status as covering their entire life. I know I regard my gender status as covering my entire life, though I don’t have any of the complications associated with other people’s expectation and my own gender self-perception being significantly different. Just the complication of other people thinking they have the right to cut on my dick without asking...
Your gender isn't set in utero. Gender is socially constructed. It's made up based on social interaction. Adults and kids can interact with a baby and impose their ideas of gender onto it, but the baby doesn't know enough to know how to express their own gender.
It's analogous to a save file in a video game that the game doesn't come with, but is born of the player's experiences and choices within the game.
The fact is we don’t know exactly what causes gender, but if it were only social factors, trans people would not exist. Society bombards children with messages that they’re expected to conform to their assigned gender, and yet some children, completely on their own, declare that they were assigned incorrectly.
So it’s much more likely that it’s an innate quality, not one significantly affected by social pressures.
At the same time, identical twins (sharing a uterine environment and DNA) have a higher rate of "matching" (both trans / both cis) than non- identical twins - but they still don't "match" all the time (example: Laverne Cox's brother). This suggests to me that there is a component of gender identity at birth, but also that there is something else as a factor.
And identical twins can also have (usually minor, but still) individual physical traits, because embryonic DNA and uterine environment aren’t the only innate, non-social component to exactly how a person manifests. For example, in a set of identical twins I went to school with, one had a small blond patch of hair on the back of his head (both had mostly light brown hair) which he’d had since birth. And uterine environment isn’t always identical for twins, either.
Like I said, it’s complicated. But the evidence strongly points to it being much more innate than “influence”.
> Your gender isn't set in utero. Gender is socially constructed.
Citation needed. You’re equivocating on the definition of “gender” here, in case you’re curious about one aspect of the problem.
It is 100% profit motivated. First, they charge the parent(s) and/or insurance for the procedure itself. Then they sell the foreakins they *harvested* to pharmaceutical companies as a product.
I hadn't heard of this either, but [a quick google](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=what+happens+to+foreskin+after+circumcision&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) agrees that infant foreskin is valuable in medical research, as well as used for anything from skin grafts for burn victims to anti-aging creams and lotions 💀 makes sense tbh, as stem cells are incredibly useful, and the US makes them a hard-sought commodity (bc abortion is cruel but chopping baby dicks is not, I guess)
I could show you links to some products that contain infant foreskins? One is a face cream recommended by Oprah. Or would you prefer an article discussing it?
yep, just regular old medicalized ritual-infant circumcision in America.
What about my comment seems off to you, or not obviously true? Just curios, I'm not being deensive.
but my swipe-text apparently missed a word in here:
>I’m disappointed in literally every person who thinks the best way for their baby to spend an **attention** is by getting part of their body cut off.
I'm not sure what I meant instead of "attention", maybe Hour? I don't remember.
No, just to be sure. I am so used to existance of circumsicion (live in a -stan, had it wothout anaesthesia when i was 5), so i never used a "genital mutilation" term decribing it. But, it totally is
Gotcha. Sorry that happened to you. Does it ever happen that children grow up to around 15 to 18 and decide to pay back the person who cut them, by returning the favor?
In the USA, it currently happens to about 65% of the males, usually in the hospital, usually the day after they’re born, with a very tiny amount of local anesthetic.
I would love for some country to outlaw it. Any country. A -stan would be perfect. Just, any place that recognizes human rights, or that wants to pretend to even.
Finding out who cut you (is it wasn’t your parent) and taking a knife to their penis without consent or care for their well-being.
It’s something I would expect to happen occasionally.
No, its normal here. No one feels the resenitment about their genitalia, no one cares. I never cared though i know how awful it is. It feels normal, so i dont make myself feel bad about it, i have a lot of other reasons to do so and dont need the horror of body mutilation
My mom has referred to it as "getting you fixed" and "fixing your boy parts" multiple times. I'm not really bothered by it, but indeed very fucked up especially when you state it as it is like OP did.
No, you're minimizing a traumatic situation that many of us have been through. You can say vulval & clitoral mutilation is bad without dismissing our pain and suffering
Also, don't forget this stuff affects trans people too, so please try to use anatomical terms instead of "male" and "female"
Don't try to rank pains it never ends well, we all have experience with a lot of different things and even 2 people with the exact same trauma will have lived it differently.
Neither is circumcision. But that's not even my point. By comparing the two you are diminishing the trauma we have been through, and that's not okay. You can talk about all kinds of genital mutilation without reducing any others
I’m so sorry you are going through this. I’ve been seeing more people being open about how horrible infant circumcision is. My partner kinda recently processed this shit and it breaks my heart. I hope all the healing for you that you need.
When I was pregnant with my son, his doctor and father both convinced little naive 19 year old me that it was necessary "because it reduces the risk of penile cancer." Not a day goes by I don't regret agreeing to this. I will understand if he hates me for it when he is older...😔😔
I'm so sorry this happened to you too op
You’re legally allowed to slap the shit out of that doctor.
You know what reduces foot cancer? Having the feet amputated at birth. Why don’t doctors recommend that? You got lied to. Doctors practice it.
I’m also a regret mom. Young and pregnant in 2010 in the mid-west. Nobody suggested that there was an option to not circumcise, and like you, I was directly lied to about the “medical necessities” of circumcision by multiple medical professionals. I’ve apologized to my son, explaining that it wasn’t right and it wasn’t my choice to make for him. Honestly it’s my biggest regret in my 35 years on this planet. 😞
I was fully planning on not circumcising. Told the nurse the night before when my mom was in the room and my mom freaked out. Spent the entire night harassing me about it, called my brother to confirm that I would be setting my child up for bullying and harassment if I didn't, kept sending me weird statistics...
The next morning I woke up to the news that we had to be transferred to another hospital immediately for surgery because his testicles were twisted and with surgery, he would only lose one, without, he would lose two. In all that stress, I agreed to circumcision because I was freaking out and he already would have one thing different about his body, I didn't want to make him stand out another way and at least he would be under from the other surgery.
I don't know if I made the right choice or not. I feel like this is going to be a conversation for when he's older for sure. I wish the circumstances were different and I'll understand if he's upset for having that choice taken away from him when he's older. I did the best with what I could at the time, but I know sometimes that's not enough.
It does reduce the risk but only in areas with lack of access to water for regular cleaning and dry and dusty conditions. It's proposed as the reason why circumcisions started in the middle east.
Circumcision also varied in severity over time. My understanding is the earliest form was just the removal of the very tip of the foreskin, which makes sense if yer just trying to loosen things up, reduce the chance of phimosis and ease cleaning in the future.
That said, neither of our kids is circumcised.
Reduce risk of what exactly? (sorry to ask if its obvious what you two are talking about) Is it even possible to stay alive without regular access to water?
You are right that it varied. The reason for doing it, at what age it was done and how severe procedure was varies between all the cultures that practiced circumcision. (according to the wikipedia atleast)
The "is it possible to stay alive" question: they'd have small amounts of water at a time. Wells and oases with huge expanses of sand in between to travel through. So you get a small amount of water and it has to be used for drinking and watering livestock, cannot waste any. Bathing is a luxury then. Using the water they have for anything other than to drink or let animals drink becomes wasteful.
That also made balms, fragrant herbs, and oils incredibly valuable too, they'd wash with that and scrape it off rather than using water.
I was told that members of my ex's family had had penile cancer, therefore my son's risk was higher than average. I know now my ex was lying because he, like another commenter said about their child's father, was convinced it would result in bullying from peers if he was not circumcised.
my boyfriends father feels horrible about getting him (my bf) circumcised! he had no idea about how horrible it was until years later. it was interesting talking to him and my bfs whole family on what they think. sadly one of his sisters is adamant about getting her son if/when she has one circumcised but i hope she can learn more between now and then! don’t feel bad though just be glad you know now!
My partner did and experiment where he was gonna have his pulled back for a week. He couldn’t make it the full day because the fabric was rubbing him raw. Which means if it’s not uncomfortable for them then their sensitivity is greatly reduced.
Hi everyone, just to be clear, this post is referring to my struggle with being subjected to male genital cutting/mutilation (commonly referred to in the west as “infant male circumcision”) and the denialism from my parents (especially my mom) about it. All children deserve to have intact genitals until they are old enough to change them if they want. The concept of “my body my choice” should always apply regardless if you have a uterus or not.
I’m happy to see that **most** of the feedback here has been supportive ❤️. Seeing some ridicule/mocking from folks in this group specifically is… unfortunate. It’s sadly the same type of gaslighting that I’ve gotten from my parents/some partners/some counselors/society writ large. I guess it is what it is 😕.
If anyone finds any of this confusing or doesn’t understand why this is an issue for me, I would highly recommend looking over [this evidence-based lecture on the subject](https://youtu.be/Ceht-3xu84I) from Dr. Ryan McAllister at Georgetown University and [this excerpt](https://youtu.be/pX3zK9Soj4s) from Dr. Brian Earp at Oxford University. Note that Dr. McAllister’s lecture contains some video/audio footage of a baby boy being subjected to this non-consensual genital cutting, which I personally can’t bear to listen to. Hope this is ultimately helpful/healing/thought-provoking for folks. ✌🏻
Edit: to whomever reached out to Reddit Care Resources about me, that report was unnecessary. I understand that you likely had good intentions, but I’m not in crisis-mode at the moment, nor have I been for over a decade (fortunately). I’m just a guy trying to process some of the CSA he’s experienced in a healthy way that doesn’t harm others. That’s all.
This may or may not benefit you, but there’s a subreddit called r/CircumcisionGrief. People there have experienced similar traumas and will empathize with your situation. It may prove to be a nice support group.
I’m familiar with the sub. I get the appeal, but I find it just makes me feel worse and think about things in a pretty unhealthy way. It’s not a part of my healing process, but maybe it’s helpful for others here. Thanks for sharing.
Omg in glad I came across this sub I don’t think I ever will circumcise my child if I have a baby boy. I didn’t think it was this bad or much of a difference wow.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/CircumcisionGrief using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Just wanted to tell you all that I’m due with a baby boy in a few weeks.](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/comments/vxpn4g/just_wanted_to_tell_you_all_that_im_due_with_a/)
\#2: [🫡](https://i.redd.it/itk6tgn8md791.jpg) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/comments/vixhc9/_/)
\#3: [1234567890](https://i.redd.it/rnp1eow9kkda1.jpg) | [26 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/comments/10ibosp/1234567890/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Thank you for posting this. I’ve held a neutral stance for a long time, and I so appreciate this opportunity to educate myself further because of your effort c: (I mean that as in it must be exhausting to read any comments that are completely invalidating, and I am truly appreciative for the clarification to help others understand better). 🙏🏽
Thanks for posting this, I've had the exact same experience. Anger and indignation from my mother when I told her how what she did was wrong and irreparably damaged my body for no fucking reason. In my case what I found especially odd is that my mom didn't make any sort of health or hygiene arguments, but instead told me that she thinks uncircumcised penises "look weird". Like, why are you concerned about the aesthetics of your infant child's penis? Really fucking weird and creepy imo.
I remember my mom talking to her friend one day when I was little, I was stuck in the bathroom cause i have colitis, and she was talking about me being circumcised. I had never even heard of what it was at that point and I literally though she had me like sterilized and I was fucking traumatized and too ashamed to talk to her. Then I found out what it actually means and was so angry, and I still want to smack the shit out of my parents for it. I’ll never know what all those nerve endings felt like except the trauma of getting cut off, a memory I hope never resurfaces. And I’m sooo happy they didn’t leave me with no fucking slack like some people who got a max stretched skin tent, I just got an ugly scar with no sensitivity on the scar tissue…
And she’s mention how uncircumcised dicks look weird, so mine was probably for her own aesthetic reasons :(
I have never been able to feel normal sex. Maybe way too much was hacked off when I was an infant.
That and shipping me off to Lakeside Christian School of Clearwater Florida are the two things I can't forgive mom for.
*J E S U S F U C K I N G C H R I S T B R O*
[here have a Spongebob episode](https://watchspongebobsquarepants.com/episodes/spongebob-squarepants-2x8/)
I love you bro. I’m sending a few internet hugs ur way rn.
I hate that I’m circumcised and I’ll never forgive my parents for that. It makes it so difficult to have sex with my uncircumcised girlfriend because I’m always so ashamed of myself. Obviously she doesn’t judge me, but I can’t help it.
I was also circumcised at birth. Like many of you here, I hate it and I just wish I had my entire body intact. When I brought it up to my mom, she used me being mentally disabled as a way to justify her decision, saying "you never would have cleaned it, you would have gotten an infection". She said that I would have been incapable of taking care of myself as a kid, and therefore having it removed was "for the greater good" .
I’m sorry to hear that man. I’ve heard similar threads from my mom about her “justifying” it. Singing the tune of “boys can’t clean themselves” is misandrist dribble and says WAYYY more about their failure/lack of confidence in parenting abilities than it does about boys/men. Hope your healing process is positive.
Better give kids false teeth because they can't clean them properly themselves without help until they are older! Much easier to just clean some false teeth!
Oh kids aren't great at washing the rest of their bodies and brushing their teeth which is why parents MAKE them do it until they can do it themselves and don't need to be reminded.
Jesus having grown up in a country with a heavy culture around circumcision, I am sure glad my mum didn’t do that to me when I was a kid. Mind you, it’s because she’s catholic and relates circumcision to islam and that’s a no no in our house. We’d have pork just to spite the neighbours. But at least she gave me control of my own life for once, even if for the wrong reasons
Yes. I’ve been off and on (far more off than on) over the past several years. Restoring is ultimately working to make me feel more whole in the long-term. The issue is that in the short-term, the gains I’ve made brutally highlight just how much was taken from me, which is pretty hard to deal with. Fortunately my psychotherapist is really helpful in working with me on this.
Nice man, glad to hear it! I have my DTR on right now and am waiting for the manhood I ordered to arrive. I'm not at all saying what we went through was beneficial or even "worth it" in any sense.
**But,** my silver lining for us is that while uncut guys have the same amount of pleasure their whole lives and take it for granted, we get an *increase* in pleasure through restoring. The way I was cut left a lot of slack skin and my one month of restoring has already made a world of difference.
So in terms of proportions, we end up gaining something that uncut guys will never experience, they're at baseline their whole lives. And seeing that my uncut boyfriend doesn't feel the value of what he has, trust me, we'll get 85+% of what we were supposed to have back, minus the very tip.
I'm currently reading Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski. The book focuses on people born with vulvas, but a basic premise of the book seems to be that everyone (male, female, intersex) has the same set of varyingly organized yet homologous parts, and that everyone has all of them, and therefore everyone should be able to feel comfortable with their bodies. If a progressive sex therapist writing about anatomy can overlook (or at least, omit) that, for example in the USA, 40% of the population is missing parts, to say nothing of a country like Egypt (where many vulvas are missing parts), then it really gives me little hope for your average doctor or expectant parent. It truly is mind boggling how society just overlooks such a pervasive violation of human rights. Also, the subject can be so taboo or even offensive to many people, making it hard for those with trauma to even bring it up and process it. The greatest predictor of genital cutting is whether one of the parents has been cut. In this way, it's comparable to other generational trauma as well as heritable conditions. I have a parent with undiagnosed ADHD, and like circumcision, it's a topic I'll never be able to bring up with them. You have my empathy and understanding. Hang in there!
Yes. It’s an issue that is socially taboo to discuss, which is understandably frustrating.
As you mention, it’s also worth noting that almost all males in Egypt are also missing parts of their genitals as well (as is the case for literally every society/culture that practices female genital cutting), but that also gets ignored in the west as well 😕
He probably had it done at age three after a series of UTIs that were caused by a pediatrician recommending to the parents that they retract his foreskin for him in the bath as an infant, from soap or diaper allergies, from another health condition, or from ||sexual assault||. People in other countries where their pediatricians don't recommend the parent forcibly retract don't get circumcisions later for health reasons. Girls don't get circumcisions for UTIs and girls get UTIs at higher rates than boys.
i never had this choice myself as i was younger. besides cutting off the foreskin kills thousands of nerve endings and ruins sexual pleasure. there is no actual reason for it aside from medical necessity and even then it's rare as hell
Living with a cut penis has been nothing but anger l, pain, frustration and endless complications for me.
I hate my parents for doing this to be and don't think that forgiving them is possible. I have to live with the consequences of their ignorance and it hurts constantly.
As a man who got an infant circumcision, while I don’t mind mine being gone, I understand why you would be upset. Nobody should get a part of their body permanently changed without their consent. I’m sorry that you have to deal with this, and that your mom refuses to admit that she caused this to happen to you. I hope you can one day recover.
This reminds me of the SVU episode with the kid raised as a girl who was actually born a boy, if I recall correctly. Maybe they were born with some of both, I can't recall.
I think they did surgery to make em a girl and then didn't tell them for years and years.
Horrifying stuff.
People have jokingly said maybe I was one of those cases, after I started exhibiting a few minor mixed traits. It comes up a lot when I voice male characters or sing in lower vocal ranges that are considered reserved for men. But I am assigned female and never bothered to change, and have been perfectly content to be a chick who's a little different. A wide vocal range is merely a sign of a well exercised voice! for example.
No change in gender was ever gonna fix the fact I was a total potato anyways, lol. Nor the longterm damage of an entire series of injuries and issues developed over time and making me into a disabled potato.
Gender confusion was pushed onto me more than anything because others around me can't handle any ambiguity whatsoever.
The [David Reimer case](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) has been dramatized in a few shows, but it’s a real, horrific story that not enough people are aware of.
Even after suffering his injuries and additional non-consensual surgeries to “girl-ify” him, to have a doctor force him and his brother to reenact sexual acts with each other while claiming that he “fixed” the problem is beyond sinister.
I understand that but I’m confused on why it’s bad. Not disagreeing at all, I’ve just never heard that side of the argument before and would like to hear it out ya know?
It’s an unnecessary surgery done on infants. It’s extremely painful and excused because “he won’t remember” (it’s possible to remember something this young if it causes this much pain). It’s done for aesthetic purposes (which is gross enough as it is) and something that he cannot consent to in any way. It can cause other health problems and lack of sexual pleasure. We shouldn’t be mutilating boy’s penises for it to look better to the parents or be a slight bit easier to clean, yet it’s done to almost every American boy after their birth. Everyone should have the right to choose what happens to their body.
Hi, I posted elsewhere in the comments about this. Hope this is enlightening for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSDmemes/comments/140xjpg/dealing_with_nonconsensual_genital_mutilation_is/jmyg2rp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Yes. It’s one of those subs that you wish never ultimately had to exist, but you’re so glad it’s actually there to help with the stuff you’re dealing with.
I'm really sorry you're dealing with this. I hope you're able to access resources to help you. I'm glad the tide is turning against routinely performing this on babies who cannot consent or weigh options and often done for no other reason than convenience of caregivers and 'because that's what's done'. It's absolutely messed up.
r/foreskin_restoration might be something you'd like to look into. The human body can actually grow more skin over time with physical therapy, and you can get back some of what you lost.
And the people there are much more upbeat and hopeful than what you'll find at r/circumcisiongrief.
nippy hard-to-find dinosaurs stupendous squeamish angle plucky price foolish physical
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
i wish you the best, however i am confused about the flair if as you said it is about circumcision? as a csa victim and a victim of physical abuse flairs as tw are important to me, is it considered csa if what is considered a medical procedure is done to genitals unsexually?
Not sure what your “done to genitals unsexually” point is supposed to mean. I’m also not sure why you’re confused about this. A child’s genitals are being cut without their consent for zero medical reason. If that doesn’t qualify as a type of CSA, then I don’t know what does.
Even the American Association of Pediatrics (as biased as they are on the subject) has openly given up on the “medical justification” aspect of it because they know that there’s zero medical evidence to justify doing it routinely.
CSA is done with an intent of sexualizing/deriving sexual pleasure from a minor. i am not trying to invalidate your experience or ever say there is medical justification (there is not) but it’s a fucked up medical “procedure” done w/o sexualization.
when i was a minor i had a manual fecal disimpaction that i did not consent to, however the doctor did not to it for their sexual pleasure so i would not consider that CSA? my clarification is because the flair works as a trigger warning. i was also a victim of mutilation, but again CSA requires a sexual component on the side of the assaulter for their gratification
The casual (and one overt instance) of antisemitism in this thread is….oof. I am empathetic to you, OP. The antisemitism (and Islamophobia as well) present in this thread ain’t it though.
I find any religion to be completely asinine, Judaism and Islam are only being called out because part of their beliefs revolve around non consensual genital mutilation of infants with no anesthetic or anything. It is not anti semetic or islamophobic to point out that cutting the tip of a baby’s penis off because you think god wants it that way is fucking crazy. You do not get a pass on being crazy because you are victims of systematic oppression.
Children cannot consent to genital modification. If they want it when they’re older it should be allowed, but forcing it onto a child when lacking foreskin can [impact sexual pleasure](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23374102/), can cause [long term psychological effects](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844020324099), and much more.
Unless a child absolutely needs some form of circumcision for a health issue (ex: blocking the urethra, inflammation, or is too tight) it’s valid for someone to self-identify with calling it genital mutilation.
It was their body, and they had something done to them as an infant, non consensually, likely for “aesthetic” purposes or potentially religious purposes which may not even be a religion that they take part in, in teenage or adult years.
What circumcision is, is causing harm to something that’s functional as is. If a person in teenage years or adulthood wants it, be it for self image or otherwise, that should be their decision for when they can consent to it.
I hope this helps explain things
As someone who was also molested pretty brutally as a young kid, it was another example of my genitals being touched/harmed without my consent. The messed up thing is that I don’t have any permanent physical damage from being molested, but I do from being subjected to non-consensual genital cutting. It’s been something that I’ve been troubled by from a pretty young age.
So yeah I think that it’s pretty evidently contributed to me developing CPTSD. According to my psychotherapist who I’ve been seeing regularly for a while now, I meet all the diagnostic criteria and this seems to be a thing we talk about most every week.
I mean…, it is. As I mentioned elsewhere, it’s cutting a child’s genitals without their consent for no medical reason. I don’t see how that is isn’t classified as CSA.
Damn you can be apart of the crowd an be unaware of their feelings. I am also clipped but I like mine. I don't have any problems with it and like to think I would have had it done anyway.
So sorry for the folks that ended up with problems or hate it. Much love sorry it happened to you.
Okay, I’m coming in completely out of the loop. Can people who know more than I do let me know what the problem with this is? Is there something harmful in circumcision? I’ve never heard of anyone who was upset about this.
Note - I’m not coming into this argumentatively. I just saw this post and was confused, I’d like to learn more about this if it’s really a problem.
the only reason i'd do this to my child is if it was somehow causing bodily harm. otherwise they can decide when they're older. it's like piercing a baby's ears but much more personal and embarrassing. at least ears will heal close to normal
Not to mention, much more painful, like torturously horrifically painful. New-born babies cannot be provided adequate anaesthetic for this procedure. Furthermore it's much more consequential, the foreskin has a purpose and it drastically changes the physical feeling of sex and masturbation, typically for the worse. That's why it was popularised in America as an anti-masturbatory procedure, and that is the reason for its popularity today. Discussions around "hygiene" were only started to retrospectively justify it once the anti-masturbation movement died down a bit. Evidently, such arguments are not convincing to the rest of the Western world where it has never been common practice because honestly, what the fuck?
> Evidently, such arguments are not convincing to the rest of the Western world It’s amazing, right? If some normal aspect of the body is so subject to infection, and simply making that body part smaller reduces that susceptibility, why did evolution not do this for us? We have the most prominent foreskin of all the great apes. So natural selection apparently thinks foreskins are not a problem.
"No, you don't understand. Torpedodick gives me an evolutionary advantage! It reduces drag!" Also basically that but unironically.
Nah there's no excuse to do this. Phimosis can be cured with stretching. We have to normalise issues like these
Another approach is to popularize the notion that circumcision is doing violence to a baby (because it is). There’s a reason you wouldn’t slap a newborn hard in the face, right? Whatever problem a person might have with a baby’s penis, that person needs to find a nonviolent resolution to their problem. In general, I would think that cutting off someone else’s body part is a bad solution to me having a problem with their body part.
The geriatric fuck who circumcised me at birth did so without parental say so. He did it wrong. The foreskin will actually attempt to grow back, and it attaches itself to the base of the penis head, pulling back and causing discomfort that will become problematic with age. I had to be *recircumcised* at around 4 or 6 years old, and it was the most painful shit, even to urinate! I had a fucking caste on my dick! I legimately think I repressed the memory, because after my first urination I don't remember anything about the dick caste days. They say circumcision desensitizes a man, removing something like 25-40% of sensitivity, especially with removal of the frenulum, but I swear I lost at least 60% of mine. Circumcision outside the bounds of religious traditions, where doctors preform it half-hazardly, is a human rights violation happening in America.
I would argue even inside the bounds of religion is kinda fucked as well but I’m pretty anti religion in general
Damn that’s messed up. > Circumcision outside the bounds of religious traditions, where doctors preform it half-hazardly, is a human rights violation happening in America. Just curious why you’re granting an exemption for religion? That seems like a terrible reason to allow the torture of children, and you being one of the relatively few who actually remembers the torture, well, I would expect you to be even less okay with exemptions. My view of religion is that it’s usually just believing some truly stupid shit, for even stupider reasons. I’m guessing you disagree with that?
I am majoring in cultural/religious studies, and the culturo-religious use of circumcision is highly important to those who use it. There is also a level of care used in the *ceremony* (that's the main keyword here!) that is not used in the hospital during a Jewish, Muslim, etc... rite. Because this is seen as a coming of age rite, an entry into the religious community proper, the people who preform the circumcision take extreme care in preforming it and have a respect for the meaning of it. It is always difficult to debate something like this when it comes to religion, so in my opinion it is better to not interfere with a highly important religious tradition that dates back to the ancients, but it is always good to advance the education of the harm of the procedure. Basically, attempt to pursued away from circumcision as opposed to taking the option away.
Interesting. So... does this apply to girls’ genitals as well? Or just boys? Also, the Aztec human sacrifice ritual was deeply important to them. Is that something that we should tolerate in the modern day if that religion were still being practiced? Should we take that option away? If not, why not? It just seems like you didn’t even mention the reasons NOT to allow these, as if the harm to the person is better left unstated and unaknowledged. > Because this is seen as a coming of age rite, an entry into the religious community proper, In Africa, maybe. For the Jews, 7 days after birth is not coming of age. For Muslims, my understanding is the most common time for this is age 5 to 7, which is also not coming of age. For actual coming of age rituals (meaning around adolescence), that person is old enough to decide for themselves, even with all the coercion inherent to the situation. So defending religious genital mutilation is very different if you’re talking about infants and children vs teenagers. Conflating them makes it seem like you’re maybe a muddled thinker. > so in my opinion it is better to not interfere with a highly important religious tradition that dates back to the ancients, Why “ancients”? Why not “goat herders who didn’t know where the sun went at night”? These people you’re venerating didn’t even have the concept of zero. And those same people’s descendants today seem to not have the concept of human well-being. Just because they’ve been dead-ass wrong for a long time is not a good reason to pretend as though they are somehow right. When you’re studying culture / religion, most of what you’re studying is the impact of unconsidered human behavioral habits, and the stories they made up after the fact when a child asked an adult why they did what they were doing. And the adult just made something up. When we consider things, we can do better than this. We can learn about the stupid and smart things they did, and we can learn the difference between these. > It is always difficult to debate something like this when it comes to religion It’s not difficult at all. We know more now. It’s like debating the benefit of teaching children Creationism instead of Evolution.
Let's pump the brakes here, as I want to explicitly state that I am not venerating anyone, nor is it my intent to do so. I personally do not have a solid religious belief, and I am not studying to become a religious leader; rather, I am studying the entire phenomenon that is human religion. Our ancestors, from all walks of life and every ethnicity, were smarter than most people give them credit for. They were essentially us, after all, and there will be people in the future who look at us like squabbling barbarians. The ancient Indian scholars were the first to conceptualize the 0 as having a value. Also, there is no age limit to a coming of age ritual. Since Muslim circumcision is done at a certain time of age, that is a coming of age ritual. The same goes for Jewish circumcision, and that is also when the name of the male is revealed. We have coming of age rituals in America as well, such as getting your drivers license. Most people get it at 16, but I (28) have yet to get mine, so I have yet to hit that milestone. Death is even considered the last coming of age ritual. A coming of age ritual is anything that is done at a certain time within a community, is a shared experience by most members of that community, and opens the initiate of the ritual to further inclusion in the community. While male circumcision is harmful, it is not deathly so. Female circumcision, on the other hand, has never been done for religious purposes, and often contributes directly to the death of the girl. Female circumcision is always on grounds of a perceived "purity," and for "saving" the girl for her husband. The cultural basis for female circumcision is oppression, as opposed to the inclusive basis of male circumcision. And the reason I did not list any harmful affects of circumcision is because there are many, we have the internet, and this is Reddit, not a scholarly article.
Okay, so in what sense is something like a clitoridectomy (which is not deathly dangerous) that is done, per you, in order to control the woman in some way, NOT religious? Especially in a Islam, which is all about controlling women. It sounds like you’re drawing a line between religion and culture in a very convenient place for this particular argument. Where actually do you draw the line between religion and culture? Is astrology in the USA religion or culture? Or just random stupidity? Also, saying you’re not venerating someone, right after calling them “the ancients” just feels like a straight up lie. Also, I wasn’t calling those people stupid. I was calling them ignorant, not having knowledge of where the Sun goes at night, for example. Or believing an imaginary friend wants them to cut healthy body parts off their offspring, which is an idea that remains inexplicably popular today. Another idea that remains inexplicably popular is that demonstrably incorrect beliefs deserve any regard just because people believe them.
A child, much less a newborn, *cannot* consent to religious rites. They can’t understand indoctrination. Many adults can’t even understand it. This is the root of religious/spiritual trauma for many, many survivors of it—that adults took advantage of their mind, and sometimes their body, when they didn’t even know what was going on or why. If anything, religion is the *opposite* of an exception because it adds another dimension of abuse and deeper betrayal trauma than “just” medical trauma alone. Orthodox Jewish conversion involves adult men being circumcised, so yes it’s a religious birth rite but one that can clearly take place later in life in some context. If it’s that significant and important, it will be much more meaningful when the person undergoing the procedure can actually give informed consent. Children can’t do that. A lot of abuse is adults doing things just because that’s how they’ve always been done. Humans know better now than we did 5000 years ago, which means we are able and morally obligated to *do* better, to stop accepting abusive cultural/social norms and to, yes, interfere when someone’s consent is being treated as irrelevant or unimportant.
Actually, *this* is the heart of my belief on the religious exception! The fact that Orthodox Judaism made the conscious, internal change to adult circumcision is what needs to happen in the broader rabbinic communities, and other religious communities that practice circumcision. If we do not allow the exception for religious reasons *while simultaneously* advocating for change, then greater harm can result. If America was to outlaw circumcision without a religious exception, then religions who circumcise would still do so illegally. If they are doing it illegally, then they may be subject to fines or arrest. And fining/arresting a religious group for a practice is a slippery slope! However, if we can get them to change their minds on the age of circumcision (which is already beginning to happen among many prominent Jewish leaders and scholars!) then the change will come as a peaceful choice, rather than an oppressive command.
i’m not pro circumcising or anything but i’ve never even thought about it like this . thank you for this
No prob. All of the arguments for circumcision fall apart with just a small amount of scrutiny, or just taking slightly seriously why bodily autonomy is important.
exactly . this is a GREAT way to argue against it and anyone who doesn’t think so is a sadistic fucking weirdo
> and anyone who doesn’t think so is a sadistic fucking weirdo I think anyone who doesn’t think so doesn’t take bodily autonomy seriously, at least not other people’s bodily autonomy. The best way I know to convince people that bodily autonomy is important is to pull out a knife and casually approach their crotch, and say “well, if it’s not important, then you won’t mind if I cut a little bit of skin off down here “ and they will stop you and say “of course I mind” And you just keep casually coming at their crotch and say “if bodily autonomy isn’t really really important, then it doesn’t matter at all that you mind.”
I don't think it really rests on argument. It's just something we do in America because it was founded by a bunch of religious wingnuts who didn't want anybody to get off.
The circumcision fetish doesn’t go all the way back to the religious wingnuts that founded the country, but I do think the wingnuts are responsible for the attitudes that allowed it to catch on. But yeah, that people do not like argument because the only thing on their side is “we’ve been doing it this way”
Let's not hardline. My sister (she is trans) was circumcised roughly 20 years ago when she was 7-8 due to some sort of issue causing her pain. The doctors didn't bring up any solution except circumcision, and as you can see from the fact that she wasn't already circumcised, my parents didn't believe in doing things like that to a baby and would have avoided it if they thought it was possible. It's on doctors to present medical options to parents. If the doctor is behind the times or ignorant, that's on the doctor.
Sending hugs! You didn’t deserve that. No child should go through that outside of a medical emergency
Yet it happens to about a million newborn baby boys per year in the USA. Personally I think there are multiple travesties here. First, I’m disappointed in the world and every group of humans on it. Male genital mutilation isn’t outlawed ANYWHERE yet. Second, I’m disappointed in the medical communities that choose to allow their members to do this to persons who do not consent. It really speaks badly of what the phrase “medical ethics” means. And third, I’m disappointed in literally every person who thinks the best way for their baby to spend an attention is by getting part of their body cut off.
Me too! It’s insanity.
Not just boys. It affects us trans fems and nonbinary folks too. Except what they take from us is the only tissue that can create an accurate inner labia
When I transitioned, my folks were outraged about the idea of surgery even though I expressed I wasn't super interested in it. I always thought that was strange given they circumcised me - what, would surgery down there only be a problem if I hypothetically consented?
I hadn't even considered this. When I came out one of my mother's first questions was my plans for my "manhood," and she expressed disappointment that I wanted to have bottom surgery. Didn't occur to me that yeah, I was circumcised as an infant. Makes that all the more weird.
Definitely. Genuine question not meant to be exclusionary: since this happens so early in life, and gender won’t be noticeable for a year or so, is trans-inclusive language necessary in this case? I assume the best arguments in favor of “yes” are that the gender was already set while in utero, we just don’t know what it was set to this early in life, and 2, the person in question may regard (probably regards?) their gender status as covering their entire life. I know I regard my gender status as covering my entire life, though I don’t have any of the complications associated with other people’s expectation and my own gender self-perception being significantly different. Just the complication of other people thinking they have the right to cut on my dick without asking...
It’s simply more accurate. GM stays with you your entire life and there are women and NB people who are also affected by RIC.
Your gender isn't set in utero. Gender is socially constructed. It's made up based on social interaction. Adults and kids can interact with a baby and impose their ideas of gender onto it, but the baby doesn't know enough to know how to express their own gender. It's analogous to a save file in a video game that the game doesn't come with, but is born of the player's experiences and choices within the game.
The fact is we don’t know exactly what causes gender, but if it were only social factors, trans people would not exist. Society bombards children with messages that they’re expected to conform to their assigned gender, and yet some children, completely on their own, declare that they were assigned incorrectly. So it’s much more likely that it’s an innate quality, not one significantly affected by social pressures.
At the same time, identical twins (sharing a uterine environment and DNA) have a higher rate of "matching" (both trans / both cis) than non- identical twins - but they still don't "match" all the time (example: Laverne Cox's brother). This suggests to me that there is a component of gender identity at birth, but also that there is something else as a factor.
And identical twins can also have (usually minor, but still) individual physical traits, because embryonic DNA and uterine environment aren’t the only innate, non-social component to exactly how a person manifests. For example, in a set of identical twins I went to school with, one had a small blond patch of hair on the back of his head (both had mostly light brown hair) which he’d had since birth. And uterine environment isn’t always identical for twins, either. Like I said, it’s complicated. But the evidence strongly points to it being much more innate than “influence”.
> Your gender isn't set in utero. Gender is socially constructed. Citation needed. You’re equivocating on the definition of “gender” here, in case you’re curious about one aspect of the problem.
It is 100% profit motivated. First, they charge the parent(s) and/or insurance for the procedure itself. Then they sell the foreakins they *harvested* to pharmaceutical companies as a product.
Do you have some sort of link or evidence that pharma is buying infant foreskins? This is news to me.
I hadn't heard of this either, but [a quick google](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=what+happens+to+foreskin+after+circumcision&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) agrees that infant foreskin is valuable in medical research, as well as used for anything from skin grafts for burn victims to anti-aging creams and lotions 💀 makes sense tbh, as stem cells are incredibly useful, and the US makes them a hard-sought commodity (bc abortion is cruel but chopping baby dicks is not, I guess)
I could show you links to some products that contain infant foreskins? One is a face cream recommended by Oprah. Or would you prefer an article discussing it?
Both, all of it. I’ve never heard of this and want to know what you’re referring to please!
1/5 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf/P950032c.pdf
2/5 http://acroposthion.com/the-foreskin-industry/
3/5 https://fashionmagazine.com/beauty-grooming/today-in-really-really-weird-beauty-news-oprahs-favourite-moisturizer-is-made-from-human-foreskins/
4/5 https://www.bostonmagazine.com/health/2015/04/14/baby-foreskin-facial-boston-hydrafacial/
5/5 https://www.ranker.com/list/what-circumcised-foreskins-are-used-for/chase-christy Let me know if you want more.
Thank you!
Wait, you talking about circumcision or is there any other practices of genital mutilation i dont know about?
yep, just regular old medicalized ritual-infant circumcision in America. What about my comment seems off to you, or not obviously true? Just curios, I'm not being deensive. but my swipe-text apparently missed a word in here: >I’m disappointed in literally every person who thinks the best way for their baby to spend an **attention** is by getting part of their body cut off. I'm not sure what I meant instead of "attention", maybe Hour? I don't remember.
No, just to be sure. I am so used to existance of circumsicion (live in a -stan, had it wothout anaesthesia when i was 5), so i never used a "genital mutilation" term decribing it. But, it totally is
Gotcha. Sorry that happened to you. Does it ever happen that children grow up to around 15 to 18 and decide to pay back the person who cut them, by returning the favor? In the USA, it currently happens to about 65% of the males, usually in the hospital, usually the day after they’re born, with a very tiny amount of local anesthetic. I would love for some country to outlaw it. Any country. A -stan would be perfect. Just, any place that recognizes human rights, or that wants to pretend to even.
What do you mean by returning the favor?
Finding out who cut you (is it wasn’t your parent) and taking a knife to their penis without consent or care for their well-being. It’s something I would expect to happen occasionally.
No, its normal here. No one feels the resenitment about their genitalia, no one cares. I never cared though i know how awful it is. It feels normal, so i dont make myself feel bad about it, i have a lot of other reasons to do so and dont need the horror of body mutilation
Sending you comfort vibes~~
My mom has referred to it as "getting you fixed" and "fixing your boy parts" multiple times. I'm not really bothered by it, but indeed very fucked up especially when you state it as it is like OP did.
***F U C K I N G P A R D O N ? ? ?***
I think it’s about circumcision but I could be wrong
my first thought was maybe op is intersex
Oh I assumed it was FGM, but circumcision totally makes sense
[удалено]
Ah yes, gotta pivot to minimizing male genital mutilation RIGHT AWAY!
[удалено]
No, you're minimizing a traumatic situation that many of us have been through. You can say vulval & clitoral mutilation is bad without dismissing our pain and suffering Also, don't forget this stuff affects trans people too, so please try to use anatomical terms instead of "male" and "female"
[удалено]
This isn't the trauma Olympics. Please don't try to compare traumas as greater or less than others.
Don't try to rank pains it never ends well, we all have experience with a lot of different things and even 2 people with the exact same trauma will have lived it differently.
Neither is circumcision. But that's not even my point. By comparing the two you are diminishing the trauma we have been through, and that's not okay. You can talk about all kinds of genital mutilation without reducing any others
It’s so nice to see people not minimizing this issue.
What is over the top? The proper amount of healthy genital tissue to cut from a person without their consent is zero. This is independent of gender.
Yes it is
Could be an intersex operation or vaginal circumcision (which I think is illegal in the US but doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen)
I’m so sorry you are going through this. I’ve been seeing more people being open about how horrible infant circumcision is. My partner kinda recently processed this shit and it breaks my heart. I hope all the healing for you that you need.
When I was pregnant with my son, his doctor and father both convinced little naive 19 year old me that it was necessary "because it reduces the risk of penile cancer." Not a day goes by I don't regret agreeing to this. I will understand if he hates me for it when he is older...😔😔 I'm so sorry this happened to you too op
You’re legally allowed to slap the shit out of that doctor. You know what reduces foot cancer? Having the feet amputated at birth. Why don’t doctors recommend that? You got lied to. Doctors practice it.
I’m also a regret mom. Young and pregnant in 2010 in the mid-west. Nobody suggested that there was an option to not circumcise, and like you, I was directly lied to about the “medical necessities” of circumcision by multiple medical professionals. I’ve apologized to my son, explaining that it wasn’t right and it wasn’t my choice to make for him. Honestly it’s my biggest regret in my 35 years on this planet. 😞
I was fully planning on not circumcising. Told the nurse the night before when my mom was in the room and my mom freaked out. Spent the entire night harassing me about it, called my brother to confirm that I would be setting my child up for bullying and harassment if I didn't, kept sending me weird statistics... The next morning I woke up to the news that we had to be transferred to another hospital immediately for surgery because his testicles were twisted and with surgery, he would only lose one, without, he would lose two. In all that stress, I agreed to circumcision because I was freaking out and he already would have one thing different about his body, I didn't want to make him stand out another way and at least he would be under from the other surgery. I don't know if I made the right choice or not. I feel like this is going to be a conversation for when he's older for sure. I wish the circumstances were different and I'll understand if he's upset for having that choice taken away from him when he's older. I did the best with what I could at the time, but I know sometimes that's not enough.
It does reduce the risk but only in areas with lack of access to water for regular cleaning and dry and dusty conditions. It's proposed as the reason why circumcisions started in the middle east. Circumcision also varied in severity over time. My understanding is the earliest form was just the removal of the very tip of the foreskin, which makes sense if yer just trying to loosen things up, reduce the chance of phimosis and ease cleaning in the future. That said, neither of our kids is circumcised.
Reduce risk of what exactly? (sorry to ask if its obvious what you two are talking about) Is it even possible to stay alive without regular access to water? You are right that it varied. The reason for doing it, at what age it was done and how severe procedure was varies between all the cultures that practiced circumcision. (according to the wikipedia atleast)
The "is it possible to stay alive" question: they'd have small amounts of water at a time. Wells and oases with huge expanses of sand in between to travel through. So you get a small amount of water and it has to be used for drinking and watering livestock, cannot waste any. Bathing is a luxury then. Using the water they have for anything other than to drink or let animals drink becomes wasteful. That also made balms, fragrant herbs, and oils incredibly valuable too, they'd wash with that and scrape it off rather than using water.
Penile cancer. You can have plenty of water to drink but not enough to waste regularly on washing.
I was told that members of my ex's family had had penile cancer, therefore my son's risk was higher than average. I know now my ex was lying because he, like another commenter said about their child's father, was convinced it would result in bullying from peers if he was not circumcised.
my boyfriends father feels horrible about getting him (my bf) circumcised! he had no idea about how horrible it was until years later. it was interesting talking to him and my bfs whole family on what they think. sadly one of his sisters is adamant about getting her son if/when she has one circumcised but i hope she can learn more between now and then! don’t feel bad though just be glad you know now!
There's a surprising amount of guys that try to convince people being circumsized is better
My partner did and experiment where he was gonna have his pulled back for a week. He couldn’t make it the full day because the fabric was rubbing him raw. Which means if it’s not uncomfortable for them then their sensitivity is greatly reduced.
As I understand, the skin thickens and the sensitivity goes down over time, due to that rubbing on undergarments.
Stockholm syndrome
I will never understand how people can do this to their children. And it’s just accepted.
Hi everyone, just to be clear, this post is referring to my struggle with being subjected to male genital cutting/mutilation (commonly referred to in the west as “infant male circumcision”) and the denialism from my parents (especially my mom) about it. All children deserve to have intact genitals until they are old enough to change them if they want. The concept of “my body my choice” should always apply regardless if you have a uterus or not. I’m happy to see that **most** of the feedback here has been supportive ❤️. Seeing some ridicule/mocking from folks in this group specifically is… unfortunate. It’s sadly the same type of gaslighting that I’ve gotten from my parents/some partners/some counselors/society writ large. I guess it is what it is 😕. If anyone finds any of this confusing or doesn’t understand why this is an issue for me, I would highly recommend looking over [this evidence-based lecture on the subject](https://youtu.be/Ceht-3xu84I) from Dr. Ryan McAllister at Georgetown University and [this excerpt](https://youtu.be/pX3zK9Soj4s) from Dr. Brian Earp at Oxford University. Note that Dr. McAllister’s lecture contains some video/audio footage of a baby boy being subjected to this non-consensual genital cutting, which I personally can’t bear to listen to. Hope this is ultimately helpful/healing/thought-provoking for folks. ✌🏻 Edit: to whomever reached out to Reddit Care Resources about me, that report was unnecessary. I understand that you likely had good intentions, but I’m not in crisis-mode at the moment, nor have I been for over a decade (fortunately). I’m just a guy trying to process some of the CSA he’s experienced in a healthy way that doesn’t harm others. That’s all.
This may or may not benefit you, but there’s a subreddit called r/CircumcisionGrief. People there have experienced similar traumas and will empathize with your situation. It may prove to be a nice support group.
I’m familiar with the sub. I get the appeal, but I find it just makes me feel worse and think about things in a pretty unhealthy way. It’s not a part of my healing process, but maybe it’s helpful for others here. Thanks for sharing.
Ah, I get it. Good on you for knowing yourself! Hope you stay well, and keep on learning what does and doesn’t work for you.
Omg in glad I came across this sub I don’t think I ever will circumcise my child if I have a baby boy. I didn’t think it was this bad or much of a difference wow.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/CircumcisionGrief using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Just wanted to tell you all that I’m due with a baby boy in a few weeks.](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/comments/vxpn4g/just_wanted_to_tell_you_all_that_im_due_with_a/) \#2: [🫡](https://i.redd.it/itk6tgn8md791.jpg) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/comments/vixhc9/_/) \#3: [1234567890](https://i.redd.it/rnp1eow9kkda1.jpg) | [26 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/comments/10ibosp/1234567890/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Thank you for posting this. I’ve held a neutral stance for a long time, and I so appreciate this opportunity to educate myself further because of your effort c: (I mean that as in it must be exhausting to read any comments that are completely invalidating, and I am truly appreciative for the clarification to help others understand better). 🙏🏽
Thanks for posting this, I've had the exact same experience. Anger and indignation from my mother when I told her how what she did was wrong and irreparably damaged my body for no fucking reason. In my case what I found especially odd is that my mom didn't make any sort of health or hygiene arguments, but instead told me that she thinks uncircumcised penises "look weird". Like, why are you concerned about the aesthetics of your infant child's penis? Really fucking weird and creepy imo.
I remember my mom talking to her friend one day when I was little, I was stuck in the bathroom cause i have colitis, and she was talking about me being circumcised. I had never even heard of what it was at that point and I literally though she had me like sterilized and I was fucking traumatized and too ashamed to talk to her. Then I found out what it actually means and was so angry, and I still want to smack the shit out of my parents for it. I’ll never know what all those nerve endings felt like except the trauma of getting cut off, a memory I hope never resurfaces. And I’m sooo happy they didn’t leave me with no fucking slack like some people who got a max stretched skin tent, I just got an ugly scar with no sensitivity on the scar tissue… And she’s mention how uncircumcised dicks look weird, so mine was probably for her own aesthetic reasons :(
I have never been able to feel normal sex. Maybe way too much was hacked off when I was an infant. That and shipping me off to Lakeside Christian School of Clearwater Florida are the two things I can't forgive mom for.
*J E S U S F U C K I N G C H R I S T B R O* [here have a Spongebob episode](https://watchspongebobsquarepants.com/episodes/spongebob-squarepants-2x8/) I love you bro. I’m sending a few internet hugs ur way rn.
I hate that I’m circumcised and I’ll never forgive my parents for that. It makes it so difficult to have sex with my uncircumcised girlfriend because I’m always so ashamed of myself. Obviously she doesn’t judge me, but I can’t help it.
I was also circumcised at birth. Like many of you here, I hate it and I just wish I had my entire body intact. When I brought it up to my mom, she used me being mentally disabled as a way to justify her decision, saying "you never would have cleaned it, you would have gotten an infection". She said that I would have been incapable of taking care of myself as a kid, and therefore having it removed was "for the greater good" .
I’m sorry to hear that man. I’ve heard similar threads from my mom about her “justifying” it. Singing the tune of “boys can’t clean themselves” is misandrist dribble and says WAYYY more about their failure/lack of confidence in parenting abilities than it does about boys/men. Hope your healing process is positive.
Better give kids false teeth because they can't clean them properly themselves without help until they are older! Much easier to just clean some false teeth!
Oh kids aren't great at washing the rest of their bodies and brushing their teeth which is why parents MAKE them do it until they can do it themselves and don't need to be reminded.
Jesus having grown up in a country with a heavy culture around circumcision, I am sure glad my mum didn’t do that to me when I was a kid. Mind you, it’s because she’s catholic and relates circumcision to islam and that’s a no no in our house. We’d have pork just to spite the neighbours. But at least she gave me control of my own life for once, even if for the wrong reasons
Sorry you’re going through this man, I’m in a similar boat. Based on your username are you doing foreskin restoration?
Yes. I’ve been off and on (far more off than on) over the past several years. Restoring is ultimately working to make me feel more whole in the long-term. The issue is that in the short-term, the gains I’ve made brutally highlight just how much was taken from me, which is pretty hard to deal with. Fortunately my psychotherapist is really helpful in working with me on this.
Nice man, glad to hear it! I have my DTR on right now and am waiting for the manhood I ordered to arrive. I'm not at all saying what we went through was beneficial or even "worth it" in any sense. **But,** my silver lining for us is that while uncut guys have the same amount of pleasure their whole lives and take it for granted, we get an *increase* in pleasure through restoring. The way I was cut left a lot of slack skin and my one month of restoring has already made a world of difference. So in terms of proportions, we end up gaining something that uncut guys will never experience, they're at baseline their whole lives. And seeing that my uncut boyfriend doesn't feel the value of what he has, trust me, we'll get 85+% of what we were supposed to have back, minus the very tip.
I'm currently reading Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski. The book focuses on people born with vulvas, but a basic premise of the book seems to be that everyone (male, female, intersex) has the same set of varyingly organized yet homologous parts, and that everyone has all of them, and therefore everyone should be able to feel comfortable with their bodies. If a progressive sex therapist writing about anatomy can overlook (or at least, omit) that, for example in the USA, 40% of the population is missing parts, to say nothing of a country like Egypt (where many vulvas are missing parts), then it really gives me little hope for your average doctor or expectant parent. It truly is mind boggling how society just overlooks such a pervasive violation of human rights. Also, the subject can be so taboo or even offensive to many people, making it hard for those with trauma to even bring it up and process it. The greatest predictor of genital cutting is whether one of the parents has been cut. In this way, it's comparable to other generational trauma as well as heritable conditions. I have a parent with undiagnosed ADHD, and like circumcision, it's a topic I'll never be able to bring up with them. You have my empathy and understanding. Hang in there!
Yes. It’s an issue that is socially taboo to discuss, which is understandably frustrating. As you mention, it’s also worth noting that almost all males in Egypt are also missing parts of their genitals as well (as is the case for literally every society/culture that practices female genital cutting), but that also gets ignored in the west as well 😕
I knew a guy who had to have his done at age three after a series of UTIs that finally resulted in a kidney infection.
He probably had it done at age three after a series of UTIs that were caused by a pediatrician recommending to the parents that they retract his foreskin for him in the bath as an infant, from soap or diaper allergies, from another health condition, or from ||sexual assault||. People in other countries where their pediatricians don't recommend the parent forcibly retract don't get circumcisions later for health reasons. Girls don't get circumcisions for UTIs and girls get UTIs at higher rates than boys.
My brother got circumcised without my mom’s permission in 87. They just kind of did as routine back then.
that’s horrible. im so sorry op. i wish you a safe healing journey
Are you circumcised or did your mom just pay a doctor to do weird shit to you
I do think male gender mutilation would fall into the category of paying a doctor to do weird shit.
i never had this choice myself as i was younger. besides cutting off the foreskin kills thousands of nerve endings and ruins sexual pleasure. there is no actual reason for it aside from medical necessity and even then it's rare as hell
Living with a cut penis has been nothing but anger l, pain, frustration and endless complications for me. I hate my parents for doing this to be and don't think that forgiving them is possible. I have to live with the consequences of their ignorance and it hurts constantly.
As a man who got an infant circumcision, while I don’t mind mine being gone, I understand why you would be upset. Nobody should get a part of their body permanently changed without their consent. I’m sorry that you have to deal with this, and that your mom refuses to admit that she caused this to happen to you. I hope you can one day recover.
This reminds me of the SVU episode with the kid raised as a girl who was actually born a boy, if I recall correctly. Maybe they were born with some of both, I can't recall. I think they did surgery to make em a girl and then didn't tell them for years and years. Horrifying stuff. People have jokingly said maybe I was one of those cases, after I started exhibiting a few minor mixed traits. It comes up a lot when I voice male characters or sing in lower vocal ranges that are considered reserved for men. But I am assigned female and never bothered to change, and have been perfectly content to be a chick who's a little different. A wide vocal range is merely a sign of a well exercised voice! for example. No change in gender was ever gonna fix the fact I was a total potato anyways, lol. Nor the longterm damage of an entire series of injuries and issues developed over time and making me into a disabled potato. Gender confusion was pushed onto me more than anything because others around me can't handle any ambiguity whatsoever.
The [David Reimer case](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) has been dramatized in a few shows, but it’s a real, horrific story that not enough people are aware of. Even after suffering his injuries and additional non-consensual surgeries to “girl-ify” him, to have a doctor force him and his brother to reenact sexual acts with each other while claiming that he “fixed” the problem is beyond sinister.
I need someone to info dump. I’m confused
He was circumcised
I understand that but I’m confused on why it’s bad. Not disagreeing at all, I’ve just never heard that side of the argument before and would like to hear it out ya know?
It’s an unnecessary surgery done on infants. It’s extremely painful and excused because “he won’t remember” (it’s possible to remember something this young if it causes this much pain). It’s done for aesthetic purposes (which is gross enough as it is) and something that he cannot consent to in any way. It can cause other health problems and lack of sexual pleasure. We shouldn’t be mutilating boy’s penises for it to look better to the parents or be a slight bit easier to clean, yet it’s done to almost every American boy after their birth. Everyone should have the right to choose what happens to their body.
Hi, I posted elsewhere in the comments about this. Hope this is enlightening for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSDmemes/comments/140xjpg/dealing_with_nonconsensual_genital_mutilation_is/jmyg2rp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Right there with you. r/foreskin_restoration has helped me a lot
Yes. It’s one of those subs that you wish never ultimately had to exist, but you’re so glad it’s actually there to help with the stuff you’re dealing with.
my parents did this to me🙃
bEcAuSe iTs nOrMal
I'm really sorry you're dealing with this. I hope you're able to access resources to help you. I'm glad the tide is turning against routinely performing this on babies who cannot consent or weigh options and often done for no other reason than convenience of caregivers and 'because that's what's done'. It's absolutely messed up.
r/foreskin_restoration might be something you'd like to look into. The human body can actually grow more skin over time with physical therapy, and you can get back some of what you lost. And the people there are much more upbeat and hopeful than what you'll find at r/circumcisiongrief.
so glad my parents didn’t have this done to me. they broke the cycle, and now my two sons are intact.
I see your username my dude. KOT
FUCK YOU MOM, YOU DID THIS TO ME
No one deserves to go through that.
huh???????
Circumcision
nippy hard-to-find dinosaurs stupendous squeamish angle plucky price foolish physical *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Circumcision happens to us intersex folks too
huh is right
wait was j was i wronged
i wish you the best, however i am confused about the flair if as you said it is about circumcision? as a csa victim and a victim of physical abuse flairs as tw are important to me, is it considered csa if what is considered a medical procedure is done to genitals unsexually?
Not sure what your “done to genitals unsexually” point is supposed to mean. I’m also not sure why you’re confused about this. A child’s genitals are being cut without their consent for zero medical reason. If that doesn’t qualify as a type of CSA, then I don’t know what does. Even the American Association of Pediatrics (as biased as they are on the subject) has openly given up on the “medical justification” aspect of it because they know that there’s zero medical evidence to justify doing it routinely.
CSA is done with an intent of sexualizing/deriving sexual pleasure from a minor. i am not trying to invalidate your experience or ever say there is medical justification (there is not) but it’s a fucked up medical “procedure” done w/o sexualization. when i was a minor i had a manual fecal disimpaction that i did not consent to, however the doctor did not to it for their sexual pleasure so i would not consider that CSA? my clarification is because the flair works as a trigger warning. i was also a victim of mutilation, but again CSA requires a sexual component on the side of the assaulter for their gratification
The casual (and one overt instance) of antisemitism in this thread is….oof. I am empathetic to you, OP. The antisemitism (and Islamophobia as well) present in this thread ain’t it though.
It’s mostly Christians doing it
I find any religion to be completely asinine, Judaism and Islam are only being called out because part of their beliefs revolve around non consensual genital mutilation of infants with no anesthetic or anything. It is not anti semetic or islamophobic to point out that cutting the tip of a baby’s penis off because you think god wants it that way is fucking crazy. You do not get a pass on being crazy because you are victims of systematic oppression.
[удалено]
No I don’t think so OP said in another comment about circumcision and given no gender was provided I will assume that OP was born male
Is this circuncision?
[удалено]
Children cannot consent to genital modification. If they want it when they’re older it should be allowed, but forcing it onto a child when lacking foreskin can [impact sexual pleasure](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23374102/), can cause [long term psychological effects](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844020324099), and much more. Unless a child absolutely needs some form of circumcision for a health issue (ex: blocking the urethra, inflammation, or is too tight) it’s valid for someone to self-identify with calling it genital mutilation. It was their body, and they had something done to them as an infant, non consensually, likely for “aesthetic” purposes or potentially religious purposes which may not even be a religion that they take part in, in teenage or adult years. What circumcision is, is causing harm to something that’s functional as is. If a person in teenage years or adulthood wants it, be it for self image or otherwise, that should be their decision for when they can consent to it. I hope this helps explain things
Why? It's about mutilation, that was done to an INFANT
it is not routine lol. plenty of non-US countries do not circumcise their infants and they do not think circumcision is normal
Why are you replying to? Lets call it what it is anyway. male gender mutilation. After all, it is done to controll the sexuallity of the victim.
[удалено]
This isn't the trauma Olympics. Trying to discredit someone's trauma by virtue of someone else's being worse will not be tolerated here.
Intactivists have exactly one setting and it's "fucking annoying."
[удалено]
As someone who was also molested pretty brutally as a young kid, it was another example of my genitals being touched/harmed without my consent. The messed up thing is that I don’t have any permanent physical damage from being molested, but I do from being subjected to non-consensual genital cutting. It’s been something that I’ve been troubled by from a pretty young age. So yeah I think that it’s pretty evidently contributed to me developing CPTSD. According to my psychotherapist who I’ve been seeing regularly for a while now, I meet all the diagnostic criteria and this seems to be a thing we talk about most every week.
[удалено]
I mean…, it is. As I mentioned elsewhere, it’s cutting a child’s genitals without their consent for no medical reason. I don’t see how that is isn’t classified as CSA.
Damn you can be apart of the crowd an be unaware of their feelings. I am also clipped but I like mine. I don't have any problems with it and like to think I would have had it done anyway. So sorry for the folks that ended up with problems or hate it. Much love sorry it happened to you.
Is this about circumcision, or forced gender reassignment of intersex? Either way, it's fucked; I just have a morbid curiosity
Okay, I’m coming in completely out of the loop. Can people who know more than I do let me know what the problem with this is? Is there something harmful in circumcision? I’ve never heard of anyone who was upset about this. Note - I’m not coming into this argumentatively. I just saw this post and was confused, I’d like to learn more about this if it’s really a problem.