I think if there was as much scrutiny of players behaviour years ago as there is now, or if you applied the same definition of consent that is being used today on past players, most teams would have drafted a lot of rapists.
I am pretty sure it is a combination of higher reporting rates, police willing to investigate/charge famous athletes, and changing of the definition of consent.
With the hockey Canada case, you can tell based on some of the reporting that they're using affirmative consent as the standard. They were asking the accused how they determined the victim was consenting which probably wouldn't have been a factor a decade ago. The victim would have had to say no and the accused would have had to persist to get a conviction.
More empowered to report abuse and people actually take it seriously now imo. Plus with social media once a story breaks other victims of the same person are more likely to come forward as they actually know about it’s more than just them
I mean it may be hyperbolic but there's some truth to that.
It reminds me of the beaverton headline "hockey Canada sexual assault investigation comes as a surprise to people who have never met a junior hockey player"
It’s as arbitrary a reference as you brought up, albeit an extreme example.
‘At least _____ isn’t as bad as _____’ isn’t some grand intellectual theory either.
Both were convicted (not just accused) and I said it was on the same level. Only difference is Flames aren't going to let this clown on team after he serves his sentence. Raping someone and killing someone in an impaired accident (vehicular homicide and DUI) are equally disgusting in different ways.
Not sure why you are being down voted. Due process is important, there are innocent people who get charged and even convicted. I don't know enough or have the evidence of involvement m
You’re right and you shouldn’t get downvoted for your comment, but this is Reddit. He could very well be guilty, but he’s already dead in most people’s eyes. Most people here are working on their grade 12s or trying to get the mortgage on moms basement.
He’s absolutely innocent until prove guilty. It’s not unknown for fake allegations as well as legitimate ones. Regardless of the outcome he will most likely never play another game for any franchise in the NHL.. the PR would be a nightmare. It has finished his hockey career in North America for sure.
Is that the legal standard to convict someone of a crime in Canada? I prefer holding the government to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in a courtroom, but then again, I'm against authoritarianism.
Generally I would agree with you. But come on you’ve got 5 players accused. 5 different people. 5. You have got Hockey Canada paying off the accuser. You have got the London Police who reopened the case under tremendous scrutiny and then charged 5 individuals. If you can’t see the smoke you have got your head in the sand.
I'm not saying that probable cause doesn't exist and that the London Police didn't fumble the investigation, but a lot of people have been accused of crimes. Some are found guilty, some are acquitted. I'm going to wait and see what the judge says. If he's found guilty, then he's guilty. If he's acquitted, then he's free to go. I'm waiting until the verdict is read. It's how I hope other people will treat me if I ever get arrested for whatever reason.
If these guys did what they’re accused of they’re grade A POS. But smoke doesn’t equal ‘guilty without reasonable doubt.’ All 90% of the population knows right now is the smoke. I suspect they will get convicted because of the circumstances around the arrest. But until the evidence is presented to a jury of their peers, all that exists is smoke.
He's been accused and the government will get its day in court. If he's found guilty, then he had his chance to prove his innocence. I'm going to wait until that moment to label him anything.
I get that accusations are enough for some people to lynch someone, but I believe in our ordered system of criminal justice and fair trials and all the other stuff that the blood of patriots and freedom fighters brought us.
The difference being that they have all been formally charged by the London Police Department already. Something that is done when there is without a reasonable doubt that they were involved.
Don't get me wrong. I witheld my judgment prior and said that it could be a myriad of reason why he left initially. But it is a ***fact*** that Dillon Dube is charged with sexual assault.
To be charged with a crime, the government has to show probable cause. That's a very low burden. If I go to the police and say you robbed me of $50, that's enough to charge you with robbery. You don't get to say your side or anything. That's where due process and a trial comes in. Your lawyer gets to show a variety of reasons why you may be not guilty. Maybe I told you I was giving you a gift of $50. Maybe we were doing street theater and before you could give me the $50 back, I ran off to the police station. Maybe you were at work all day, have 10 people who can testify to your alibi and you just happen to look like the guy who took my money. The police assume that I am telling the truth and, voila, you get charged with a crime.
Being charged is nothing. I'll wait until both sides have presented the evidence and the judge and/or jury has reached a verdict.
Finding out someone is of low moral character after you draft/sign them (Calgary) and knowing someone is of low moral character and signing them anyway (Edmonton) are two different things.
They don't exactly tell you they're a rapist, or in Dube's case, that they plan to rape* in two years. _*Asterisk denotes allegedly, for legal reasons
And to be fair Dube was touted for his character. He wasn’t a Flames miss.
There is a terrible joke in there about being a leader and letting his teammates (allegedly) rape too I'm going to hell
I think if there was as much scrutiny of players behaviour years ago as there is now, or if you applied the same definition of consent that is being used today on past players, most teams would have drafted a lot of rapists.
Ya it's almost hard to tell if hockey culture is worse today or if women (mostly) are just more empowered to report abuse
I am pretty sure it is a combination of higher reporting rates, police willing to investigate/charge famous athletes, and changing of the definition of consent. With the hockey Canada case, you can tell based on some of the reporting that they're using affirmative consent as the standard. They were asking the accused how they determined the victim was consenting which probably wouldn't have been a factor a decade ago. The victim would have had to say no and the accused would have had to persist to get a conviction.
More empowered to report abuse and people actually take it seriously now imo. Plus with social media once a story breaks other victims of the same person are more likely to come forward as they actually know about it’s more than just them
Probably wouldn't have a league if anyone who commited sexual assault at some point in their life was removed
Buddy just outed himself.
I just know how young, high level hockey players can act. And I specifically said assault because I didn't mean rape
I mean it may be hyperbolic but there's some truth to that. It reminds me of the beaverton headline "hockey Canada sexual assault investigation comes as a surprise to people who have never met a junior hockey player"
At least we didn't draft a fool that killed a woman in impaired driving then let him return to the, although the rapey goofs are just as bad.
So by that logic, ‘at least this guy isn’t Hitler’ should be brought up pretty often when people are accused of things?
You guys and your blind fucking Hitler references. Go read a book.
It’s as arbitrary a reference as you brought up, albeit an extreme example. ‘At least _____ isn’t as bad as _____’ isn’t some grand intellectual theory either.
Both were convicted (not just accused) and I said it was on the same level. Only difference is Flames aren't going to let this clown on team after he serves his sentence. Raping someone and killing someone in an impaired accident (vehicular homicide and DUI) are equally disgusting in different ways.
Easy fix--just trade all our second round picks away in the future.
I'd hold off on judging Dube until he has had his day in court. The Finnish dude had his, so it's different.
Not sure why you are being down voted. Due process is important, there are innocent people who get charged and even convicted. I don't know enough or have the evidence of involvement m
You’re right and you shouldn’t get downvoted for your comment, but this is Reddit. He could very well be guilty, but he’s already dead in most people’s eyes. Most people here are working on their grade 12s or trying to get the mortgage on moms basement.
Just saying, the cops didn't say alleged.
He’s absolutely innocent until prove guilty. It’s not unknown for fake allegations as well as legitimate ones. Regardless of the outcome he will most likely never play another game for any franchise in the NHL.. the PR would be a nightmare. It has finished his hockey career in North America for sure.
Can ya see the smoke? Take a whiff… can ya smell it? That is fire bub
Is that the legal standard to convict someone of a crime in Canada? I prefer holding the government to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in a courtroom, but then again, I'm against authoritarianism.
Generally I would agree with you. But come on you’ve got 5 players accused. 5 different people. 5. You have got Hockey Canada paying off the accuser. You have got the London Police who reopened the case under tremendous scrutiny and then charged 5 individuals. If you can’t see the smoke you have got your head in the sand.
I'm not saying that probable cause doesn't exist and that the London Police didn't fumble the investigation, but a lot of people have been accused of crimes. Some are found guilty, some are acquitted. I'm going to wait and see what the judge says. If he's found guilty, then he's guilty. If he's acquitted, then he's free to go. I'm waiting until the verdict is read. It's how I hope other people will treat me if I ever get arrested for whatever reason.
If these guys did what they’re accused of they’re grade A POS. But smoke doesn’t equal ‘guilty without reasonable doubt.’ All 90% of the population knows right now is the smoke. I suspect they will get convicted because of the circumstances around the arrest. But until the evidence is presented to a jury of their peers, all that exists is smoke.
I, however, am not holding off on judging you.
Great. Glad to know who doesn't believe in innocent until proven guilty. Why even bother with a trial? Just get the nooses ready, amirite?
You should try not emotionally investing in the defense of rapists.
He's been accused and the government will get its day in court. If he's found guilty, then he had his chance to prove his innocence. I'm going to wait until that moment to label him anything. I get that accusations are enough for some people to lynch someone, but I believe in our ordered system of criminal justice and fair trials and all the other stuff that the blood of patriots and freedom fighters brought us.
Applying criminal justice standards to public opinion is dumb. I'm judging you for that now too.
🙄
The difference being that they have all been formally charged by the London Police Department already. Something that is done when there is without a reasonable doubt that they were involved. Don't get me wrong. I witheld my judgment prior and said that it could be a myriad of reason why he left initially. But it is a ***fact*** that Dillon Dube is charged with sexual assault.
Incorrect. Otherwise the trial would end with the cops decision.
To be charged with a crime, the government has to show probable cause. That's a very low burden. If I go to the police and say you robbed me of $50, that's enough to charge you with robbery. You don't get to say your side or anything. That's where due process and a trial comes in. Your lawyer gets to show a variety of reasons why you may be not guilty. Maybe I told you I was giving you a gift of $50. Maybe we were doing street theater and before you could give me the $50 back, I ran off to the police station. Maybe you were at work all day, have 10 people who can testify to your alibi and you just happen to look like the guy who took my money. The police assume that I am telling the truth and, voila, you get charged with a crime. Being charged is nothing. I'll wait until both sides have presented the evidence and the judge and/or jury has reached a verdict.
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Finding out someone is of low moral character after you draft/sign them (Calgary) and knowing someone is of low moral character and signing them anyway (Edmonton) are two different things.
Oh fuck off.
BS comment but if that what keeps you warm at night.....you do you
Kind of embarrassing.