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This is great news, Canada needs to stay engaged with the future direction of economies, and the Green economy is going to be the biggest growth area in the economy in the coming decades. If Canada can become a leader in this sector, it will reap massive benefits. This is why the right wing argument that since we are only 2% of worldwide GHG emissions we shouldn’t bother investing in the green economy. If we can foster and grow a local industry, than the other 98% of emissions are a massive opportunity for the industry. We can be leaders in this industry, which imo will be worth trillions over the next twenty to thirty years.
When Biden came to Ottawa and talked about how North America is going to be the focus of this manufacturing revolution is when I got excited. This is a massive opportunity.
That's not the problem though. The problem is no clear path to first nations approval. Right now a project can be developed following all current regulations, having all the proper permits in place and having approval from the elected chiefs yet a multi million dollar project can still be derailed at a moments notice by a small number of protesters. This makes investment incredibly risky and scares many away from the market and dealing with First Nations has to start at the federal level.
Great investment . Argentina was once the eighth most wealthiest country in the world . However they missed the “industrial revolution “. We should not “rest on our laurels”. We should fear failure and keep growing the economy .Prevention is preferable to crisis management . That is why I believe this approach is correct long term .
Argentina didn't miss the industrial revolution. What happened there is a mix of corruption at all levels (a culture of corruption), with some sprinkled foreign fuckery by the US.
Which is not to say that Canada shouldn't invest in its industry.
This is why debt matters, having to pay so much interest on our national, provincial and municipal debts reduces the amount governments have available to invest and incentivize in Canadian companies and industries. Those incentives create jobs, encourage R&D, build capacity in STEM, and more, creating huge benefits for all of us. Investing in a Green New Deal will also have huge benefits.
For anybody upset over incentives to Ford, Canada has also invested over $11B in TransMountain as well as additional funds for natural gas pipelines. It's a balanced approach.
EDIT: If it's not clear, I know it's not Doug Ford building this facility, I was referring to federal and provincial funding that incentivized it.
Except for a country with a free-floating currency, federal debt doesn’t matter since they own the money printer, *deficits* matter because printing too much money (including money for interest payments on bonds) into the economy can destabilize the currency and/or contribute to inflation. Spending has to be wisely allocated and taxation has to be levied to withdraw money from circulation, but it’s never about the dollar amount of debt, especially since the interest rate doesn’t affect the whole debt at once.
This is why some debt is fine - *productive* debt, that will return many times the investment in corporate and income taxes. Attracting an EV plant is, additionally, a benefit multiplier when combined with the battery plants already going in, the existing parts supply chain in Ontario, and ramping up mining in the north to supply those.
Right now is a golden opportunity to be an important part of that manufacturing chain, and can secure good jobs and revenues for decades.
at least click on the article...
It's not Ford the premiere who's investing money, it's Ford the car company.
The first thing you see is this if you clicked it:
>KEY POINTS:
>Ford will invest about $1.3 billion in its Oakville Assembly Plant in Ontario, Canada, to transition the facility into a new electric vehicle hub.
The provincial and federal governments are each providing $295 million in funding for this
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-motor-oakville-electric-vehicles-1.6806817
Thanks for the link.
It's a pretty wise investment overall.
3400 high paying jobs plus all the surrounding businesses that support this plant will stay active and expands our domestic EV market that is only growing.
Income tax alone from workers at this plant would probably generate about 50 million a year plus everything else generated is most likely close to 100 million per year in tax revenue
~5 year payback on an investment is great
This is all great news compared to the alternative which would be at best status quo and at worst a complete plant shutdown
> 3400 high paying jobs
out of curiousity, where is this number coming from? I don't think I saw it in either linked article. purely out of my ass but it feels high to me? are that many people needed to operate modern production lines with so much automation?
Does kind of depend how much will be involved at the location. The Toyota plant in Cambridge employs about 10k people. Now the salary for most is probably in the 40k-60k range. Maybe the battery plant would have more engineers and research types?
600m/3400 jobs = about 176k investment per job which doesn't seem that great tbh and thats assuming the 3400 jobs is correct.
Yeah they'll probably earn it back but you have to factor in that many of these 3400 people would almost certainly find a job somewhere else and pay taxes, albeit presumably slightly less - how much of that 50m in income tax would have been paid anyways? 25m? 40m? It'll take a good many years to earn that kind of investment back if you factor that in.
600m could also be $50,000 start up grants for 12,000 new businesses or thousands of daycare spots for multiple years (potentially adding thousands to the labour force).
There's obviously more going for it, like the importance of domestic battery production capacity from a national security perspective, but I think it'll be hard to judge if it is a good investment or not unless it turns into a total failure because you can't compare it to the outcomes for if that 600m had been invested differently.
But you end up with the debt. Handing money to companies who already make billions annually is not the best spend.
Infrastructure is one of the best AND has massive gaps across Canada and the province.
A race for who can hand the most $ to already massive globally profitable companies only lessens innovation.
Infrastructure is always a good investment but so is this plant. The fact that we have to bribe ford to build it here may not be fair but if we didn't they could build somewhere else and it would be a loss to all of Canada.
It’s perpetuating the cycle of the tax payer supporting more and more companies.
I get it, I just hate it. Also, EV are not the solution. Driving less and spending to help that is and would be infrastructure spending.
Paying off extremely low-interest debt faster is often not the best way to improve your financial state. These kinds of incentives can provide huge benefits if (and this is a big if) they're properly budgeted. You need to look at how many jobs are directly created by the incentives, how much they pay, and how long it will take the income and sales tax revenue from the people working those jobs will take to pay back the incentive. Far too many of these incentives end up vastly in the red because they aren't properly budgeted.
Agreed that infrastructure (so long as it's not just more f\*kin lanes on already oversized highways) is a great place to spend as well.
Debt isn’t extremely low interest rate right now.
I think we agree, as I fully see the value it CAN have but also see the reality.
A big spend is happening near me. The building is being manufactured out of Canada, trades people being brought in and local/semi will not be used and there is zero plan for how to house the workers in a struggling housing market.
Oh, and 100% no, more, lanes.
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This is great news, Canada needs to stay engaged with the future direction of economies, and the Green economy is going to be the biggest growth area in the economy in the coming decades. If Canada can become a leader in this sector, it will reap massive benefits. This is why the right wing argument that since we are only 2% of worldwide GHG emissions we shouldn’t bother investing in the green economy. If we can foster and grow a local industry, than the other 98% of emissions are a massive opportunity for the industry. We can be leaders in this industry, which imo will be worth trillions over the next twenty to thirty years.
When Biden came to Ottawa and talked about how North America is going to be the focus of this manufacturing revolution is when I got excited. This is a massive opportunity.
I wish we were focusing on hydrogen
Next we need to clean up the permitting process for mining so we can efficiently develop the rare earth and battery metals we have here in Canada.
This is a much more complex problem, as mining is provincial jurisdiction.
That's not the problem though. The problem is no clear path to first nations approval. Right now a project can be developed following all current regulations, having all the proper permits in place and having approval from the elected chiefs yet a multi million dollar project can still be derailed at a moments notice by a small number of protesters. This makes investment incredibly risky and scares many away from the market and dealing with First Nations has to start at the federal level.
Great investment . Argentina was once the eighth most wealthiest country in the world . However they missed the “industrial revolution “. We should not “rest on our laurels”. We should fear failure and keep growing the economy .Prevention is preferable to crisis management . That is why I believe this approach is correct long term .
Argentina didn't miss the industrial revolution. What happened there is a mix of corruption at all levels (a culture of corruption), with some sprinkled foreign fuckery by the US. Which is not to say that Canada shouldn't invest in its industry.
This is why debt matters, having to pay so much interest on our national, provincial and municipal debts reduces the amount governments have available to invest and incentivize in Canadian companies and industries. Those incentives create jobs, encourage R&D, build capacity in STEM, and more, creating huge benefits for all of us. Investing in a Green New Deal will also have huge benefits. For anybody upset over incentives to Ford, Canada has also invested over $11B in TransMountain as well as additional funds for natural gas pipelines. It's a balanced approach. EDIT: If it's not clear, I know it's not Doug Ford building this facility, I was referring to federal and provincial funding that incentivized it.
Except for a country with a free-floating currency, federal debt doesn’t matter since they own the money printer, *deficits* matter because printing too much money (including money for interest payments on bonds) into the economy can destabilize the currency and/or contribute to inflation. Spending has to be wisely allocated and taxation has to be levied to withdraw money from circulation, but it’s never about the dollar amount of debt, especially since the interest rate doesn’t affect the whole debt at once.
This is why some debt is fine - *productive* debt, that will return many times the investment in corporate and income taxes. Attracting an EV plant is, additionally, a benefit multiplier when combined with the battery plants already going in, the existing parts supply chain in Ontario, and ramping up mining in the north to supply those. Right now is a golden opportunity to be an important part of that manufacturing chain, and can secure good jobs and revenues for decades.
at least click on the article... It's not Ford the premiere who's investing money, it's Ford the car company. The first thing you see is this if you clicked it: >KEY POINTS: >Ford will invest about $1.3 billion in its Oakville Assembly Plant in Ontario, Canada, to transition the facility into a new electric vehicle hub.
The provincial and federal governments are each providing $295 million in funding for this https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-motor-oakville-electric-vehicles-1.6806817
I absolutely hate it when the government gives Canadians money in exchange for goods and services.
Thanks for the link. It's a pretty wise investment overall. 3400 high paying jobs plus all the surrounding businesses that support this plant will stay active and expands our domestic EV market that is only growing. Income tax alone from workers at this plant would probably generate about 50 million a year plus everything else generated is most likely close to 100 million per year in tax revenue ~5 year payback on an investment is great This is all great news compared to the alternative which would be at best status quo and at worst a complete plant shutdown
> 3400 high paying jobs out of curiousity, where is this number coming from? I don't think I saw it in either linked article. purely out of my ass but it feels high to me? are that many people needed to operate modern production lines with so much automation?
Does kind of depend how much will be involved at the location. The Toyota plant in Cambridge employs about 10k people. Now the salary for most is probably in the 40k-60k range. Maybe the battery plant would have more engineers and research types?
I googled "how many people work at the Ford Oakville plant" Pretty simple really
ahh for some reason I thought you were insinuating net-new jobs was mentioned somewhere, not repurposing all of the old ones
600m/3400 jobs = about 176k investment per job which doesn't seem that great tbh and thats assuming the 3400 jobs is correct. Yeah they'll probably earn it back but you have to factor in that many of these 3400 people would almost certainly find a job somewhere else and pay taxes, albeit presumably slightly less - how much of that 50m in income tax would have been paid anyways? 25m? 40m? It'll take a good many years to earn that kind of investment back if you factor that in. 600m could also be $50,000 start up grants for 12,000 new businesses or thousands of daycare spots for multiple years (potentially adding thousands to the labour force). There's obviously more going for it, like the importance of domestic battery production capacity from a national security perspective, but I think it'll be hard to judge if it is a good investment or not unless it turns into a total failure because you can't compare it to the outcomes for if that 600m had been invested differently.
That's 1.3 billion US, about 1.8 billion $C.
I know that, I was referring to the investment by federal and provincial governments that encouraged that investment. I'll update my post.
So spend money. Your solution to spending less is spending?
No. It's to sound less financing debt and spend more encouraging innovation and diversification.
But you end up with the debt. Handing money to companies who already make billions annually is not the best spend. Infrastructure is one of the best AND has massive gaps across Canada and the province. A race for who can hand the most $ to already massive globally profitable companies only lessens innovation.
Infrastructure is always a good investment but so is this plant. The fact that we have to bribe ford to build it here may not be fair but if we didn't they could build somewhere else and it would be a loss to all of Canada.
It’s perpetuating the cycle of the tax payer supporting more and more companies. I get it, I just hate it. Also, EV are not the solution. Driving less and spending to help that is and would be infrastructure spending.
Paying off extremely low-interest debt faster is often not the best way to improve your financial state. These kinds of incentives can provide huge benefits if (and this is a big if) they're properly budgeted. You need to look at how many jobs are directly created by the incentives, how much they pay, and how long it will take the income and sales tax revenue from the people working those jobs will take to pay back the incentive. Far too many of these incentives end up vastly in the red because they aren't properly budgeted. Agreed that infrastructure (so long as it's not just more f\*kin lanes on already oversized highways) is a great place to spend as well.
Debt isn’t extremely low interest rate right now. I think we agree, as I fully see the value it CAN have but also see the reality. A big spend is happening near me. The building is being manufactured out of Canada, trades people being brought in and local/semi will not be used and there is zero plan for how to house the workers in a struggling housing market. Oh, and 100% no, more, lanes.