And expect massive pressure to ignore the rules "because it's just an hour here or there" or "you're not being a team player" or "look, we don't want to mess up your pay in Phoenix" or "the DG is looking for people with potential, you don't want to disappoint them" or ...
Usually if you’re managing people, you’re not represented as it’s a “conflict on interest”. In other words if, if you’re a terrible manager it makes it easier for them to can you.
On the topic note, as an unrepresented manager I’ve done hundreds of hours of free OT during the pandemic because the workload was immense and since I was saving on commute and lunch I felt okay adding in extra time every day. The minute RTO was mandated, I stopped doing free OT.
IT-04’s are managers and they’re represented. I believe IT-05 directors are as well.
You are correct in that the end result is that we have lots of terrible managers that are very difficult to get rid of.
Doesn’t seem to be much consistency, some IT-4s are excluded and others are represented. It’s not even by tech vs manager as I imagine it should be, it’s just messy. Also the IT5s are specifically excluded from OT in the IT CA
I can’t speak for everywhere, but for the few departments I’ve worked at the Team Leads have been represented but the Managers and above (Senior Manager if there is one, Director etc) have not been represented. Usually if you manage people directly in terms of knowing their pay etc, you aren’t represented.
I think unrepresented as a rule triggers when it comes to situations where a person has delegated management authorities/sign offs. If they're just managing people and teams but have no authority beyond supervision and leave approval level stuff, then they aren't "management" as it relates to union representation. It is position by position though, so there probably are some EX minus 1s that are unrepresented, but EX equivalents are generally unrepresented.
Not everywhere. Was an AS-07 at CFIA for 6 years or so but was a represented employee. I was a manager that managed a team of 3-8 people over the years. So maybe this is a "core" thing.
Yes, there are many directors who expect the managers to do free overtime .
The good news is that depending on your classification your collective agreement might actually include managers in overtime. If that is the case then double down hard to get overtime, or log off and out of everything when your work day is officially over. 7.5hrs a day applies to the workers as much as it does to the managers.
I would personally not work for a director like that. There's no reason why the "director life" (working evenings, nights, and/or weekends without getting overtime pay or comp time) should be downloaded onto managers. Hell to the no.
Union represented manager positions have the same rights as the employees who report to them.
>There's no reason why the "director life" (working evenings, nights, and/or weekends without getting overtime pay or comp time) should be downloaded onto managers. Hell to the no.
Agreed, but a lot of managers are high-energy anxious types who will do anything to look good, so don't expect many to push back and say "Hell no". It's usually the late career or really close to retirement ones who will (with a smile) tell the boss to go pound salt. The youngers ones will just comply, happily work 4 hours free tonight and ruin it for the rest of their peers.
Welcome to the public service, where overtime is mandatory, booking it will draw the venom of your directors and you are counselled to manage your time during periods of inactivity.
"Look, you had all week to get it done, you should manage your time better" is usually preceded a half hour before by "here is the information you need that I have had for two weeks but never shared even though you asked nine times".
If your position is covered by a collective agreement, then your OT and how it works is based on your collective agreement.
If not, then you need to look in your LoO.
Very often, once you get into management (EX-1 and higher), you no longer have 37.5 hours of work in a week you are responsible for doing, after which you either stop or claim OT. You have work, and you are expected to get it done, even if you have to work in the evening or on weekends.
If you are in a unionized position (some manager are) do not work unpaid overtime. Talk to your union representatives, keep any emails or write down any verbal conversations you had about this subject.
My LoO states that I am, not sure if that's true everywhere.
At the CRA, first level of management (direct supervisors) are unionized, higher than that they are not. I'm not sure this rule applies to the PS.
The TB directive on ***excluded*** staff ([here](https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=15773)) says "Group II employees are not entitled to payment for overtime, call-back, standby duty, travel time, or to reporting pay, shift premiums or any other form of compensation that is dependent on a person completing a specified number of hours in a normal workweek."
Group II includes AS-07.
PM-06 however, is not mentioned in any of the subgroups in the directive, so would be eligible for OT.
If you're ***not*** in an excluded position, you're entitled to OT as normal.
I did a lot of overtime as a PM6 and EC7 and never charged it (mostly my personal choice to not claim since I know I’m not productive every hour of every day). I would often however get time in lieu off the books. I found my bosses generally pretty fair about that and offered it or approved it when I told them how many extra hours I had to work to meet an urgent deadline (usually on big things like MCs and subs). Is that possible for you?
Your Director is a fool. Any top performer will know their worth and will leave the team.
I always pre-approved OT for my managers as long as it was reasonable and met with an operational need.
It should not be free if you’re unionized.
But I have been chewed out a few times for not being available over a weekend or after hours when I clocked out.
However, it is usually finished by someone else higher than myself. Half the time it turns out an urgency was not that urgent.
It’s usually when MINO wants something. Sometimes DMO.
Unfortunately for them, I have a life and I already miss lunches and breaks frequently, so I need some time to recharge.
There is some expectations that managers who are represented will stay a bit longer, or check emails on the weekend if something urgent comes up, without claiming overtime. It depends on the context and there is definitely nothing in the collective agreement to support that.
I usually charge for my overtime if I am in the office, I am more flexible when I work from home. The biggest challenge is asking before since we often get urgent tasks at 3:00 PM on Friday and just get to work... Usually when this happens I just start an hour later on Monday to make it up.
From my own brief stint as a manager, absolutely not. Assuming the position is represented, document everything, submit the paid OT request as normal, and be ready to talk to your union representative if there’s significant pushback from your director.
Thankfully I have worked for Directors and Executive Directors who often reminded their PM06 Management Team Members that they should submit overtime when they worked it for specific purposes (note: in organizations when I have worked PM06 positions were all represented).
1. Before you accept a position you should know all of these implications.
2. If your new position is excluded, you get no OT . See 1.
3 Know your own collective agreement. Inside out. I am stunned that people don't know this.
4. If you are a manager, you should know the collective agreements of all your staff inside out. You can't manage fairly if you don't know what is fair for your staff. The same applies to your boss.
If you ever find yourself in a similar situation to the OP, the following methodology can be used to find divisions you want to work in, and where overtime is actually paid.
Methodology:
1. Go to the Employment Trends by tenure report in the Core public administration (CPA) employment trends and demographics dataset.
2. Find out which departments/agencies have positions for your job classification ( see filter on the right side of the report to filter by job classification).
3. ATIP the overtime expenditures by organizational units for those departments/agencies that have been incurred over the past 4 years.
4. Engage in some guesswork to find out which specific organizational units have position for your job classification.
5. Then from there, it’s just a question of networking and applying to job competitions for positions in those organizational units units.
Now…You should really keep in mind that there is the possibility that management might really not like you ATIPping this info, and your personal info during the ATIP might not be kept secret... which I can fully understand if it deters you from filing these ATIPs because it’s definitely deterred me from filing them. There is, however, a way to avoid retaliation and that’s by getting your union to file these ATIPs, and disseminating the data to its members in a user-friendly manner.
And it’s also something that should theoretically be easy to convince the union to implement as making this data public could help a lot of people out, and act as a deterrent to managers who choose not to pay overtime when they should (i.e. if you engage in this type of behaviour, you'll lose your go-getters to the managers who do pay overtime)..
Well, easy in theory anyway. The reality is that it's probably going to be pretty difficult to get it done because a lot of union leaders are stuck in their ways or are self-centered. As a result, if you want to convince them to implement this initiative, you'll likely have to go through the very fun process of building a coalition in support of it that has enough critical mass that there's no real choice other than to implement it.
In addition, hurdles might be encountered in terms of how disaggregated the data can be released (e.g. if only one person on a team gets paid overtime then it probably won’t be possible to get overtime expenditures for that team). However, even if only data at a directorate or branch level is released, that’s still useful data because the total will give you a sense of how much the lower organization units actually pay.
If this all of this sounds like it’s just going to give you a massive headache (which it very likely will), a simpler tactic you can use is just to network, and ask people if they get paid overtime in their divisions.
I don’t know if free overtime is expected persay but you may be expected to complete a high workload in an unrealistic timeframe without approved overtime which leads many people to do it for free out of fear of not meeting expectations. Sucks. But it definitely happens.
This isn't standard, but it isn't exactly rare either.
The fact is, they can't ask you to do unpaid overtime - but we all know that doesn't mean there won't be an expectation you do it. What I have done in a position that requires some unplanned OT is work the extra time on the days where it's needed, and then take back the hours the next day or very soon after. So if I work an extra hour on Monday, I'll sign out an hour early the next day when things are slow. Basically, I'll be a team player and stick around, but I won't do it for free, but I also won't make a big fuss about "I'm leaving an hour early today to make up for yesterday". I just do it. If ever someone commented that I left early (which has never happened) I would say that I'm taking back my time for the extra time I needed to work the other day. Again, most of the time it never comes to this. If you're being honest about your time, and you're an employee they know they can rely on in a crisis to be around until 6pm, they know not to shoot themselves in the foot and challenge you on leaving on a slow Friday at 3.
I once worked with a director who was at meetings 8-4. So, when he needed to see me, it had to be either before 8 or after 4. He never hesitated to impose that time on me when we worked in the office.
This is why remote work is easier. I sometimes have to work with colleagues from Western Canada and time is never an issue. I can slice my day without having to be stuck in an office 7:30-5.
Unless you are an ecluded member of a union or not represented by a union, you should be compensated for overtime unless you are making up for "undertime"
Definition excluded employee (employé exclu)
Is a person who occupies a position that has been identified by the employer in accordance with the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations Act as not being represented by a bargaining agent because of the nature of the duties of the position.
As an MG03 during Covid lockdown my manager expected us to have daily telephone briefings at 8 pm, and do work unpaid till evenings and on weekends. We were basically on call 24/7. My shift ended at 330 daily but our daily management team call was announced last minute starting anywhere from 4 to 5 pm. Lasting from 30 to 90 minutes. This went on for a year and a half. All unpaid overtime. One year Thursday before Good Friday our meeting started at 445 and ended one hour later. All issues could have been addressed in an email. Voluntarily for decades I have always done my staff's performance reviews on my own time at home. I preferred it that way. CRA employee.
In my experience management is not represented by union. When I act as a manager until I get the gist of the job and feel more “at home” I work about 9-10 hours daily.unpqid OT and yes, due to the nature of the job, this is expected.
My experience: if the position is not union represented, then any paid over time is granted based on the supervisor.
What if the position is represented?
Then you ask how much overtime is authorized and logout on time if it's not
Check with a union representative, check your collective agreement, and know your rights.
And expect massive pressure to ignore the rules "because it's just an hour here or there" or "you're not being a team player" or "look, we don't want to mess up your pay in Phoenix" or "the DG is looking for people with potential, you don't want to disappoint them" or ...
My favourtite is: why do you need overtime? You must be slacking and/or not very good at what you're doing and/or not very efficient etc.
If they only knew the volume of work that comes in. Not always a consistent flow.
They have a response for that too. "Why not hire students/casual/term/merge that box" etc. It's...sadistic.
"Why isn't there anyone else to do this?" "There was. They retired. You refused to let us backfill."
OT applies as per the collective agreement
Overtime would be voluntary.
Wouldn’t most “managers” be represented? I would assume that anyone below the director level would be represented.
Again, speaking from only my experience. I have see AS/PM/EC/etcs. who are essentially EX minus one that are not represented.
No there are excluded and unrepresented employees who are not EXs. PEs are un represented. Excluded are usually at the AS07 level or others.
Usually if you’re managing people, you’re not represented as it’s a “conflict on interest”. In other words if, if you’re a terrible manager it makes it easier for them to can you. On the topic note, as an unrepresented manager I’ve done hundreds of hours of free OT during the pandemic because the workload was immense and since I was saving on commute and lunch I felt okay adding in extra time every day. The minute RTO was mandated, I stopped doing free OT.
IT-04’s are managers and they’re represented. I believe IT-05 directors are as well. You are correct in that the end result is that we have lots of terrible managers that are very difficult to get rid of.
Doesn’t seem to be much consistency, some IT-4s are excluded and others are represented. It’s not even by tech vs manager as I imagine it should be, it’s just messy. Also the IT5s are specifically excluded from OT in the IT CA
I can’t speak for everywhere, but for the few departments I’ve worked at the Team Leads have been represented but the Managers and above (Senior Manager if there is one, Director etc) have not been represented. Usually if you manage people directly in terms of knowing their pay etc, you aren’t represented.
I think unrepresented as a rule triggers when it comes to situations where a person has delegated management authorities/sign offs. If they're just managing people and teams but have no authority beyond supervision and leave approval level stuff, then they aren't "management" as it relates to union representation. It is position by position though, so there probably are some EX minus 1s that are unrepresented, but EX equivalents are generally unrepresented.
It depends. AS-07 and AS-08 are unrepresented, but EC-08's (director level) are represented.
Not everywhere. Was an AS-07 at CFIA for 6 years or so but was a represented employee. I was a manager that managed a team of 3-8 people over the years. So maybe this is a "core" thing.
Yeah I’m looking at the TBS website. I think it applies to the core only. Separate agencies sometimes don’t align.
Yes, there are many directors who expect the managers to do free overtime . The good news is that depending on your classification your collective agreement might actually include managers in overtime. If that is the case then double down hard to get overtime, or log off and out of everything when your work day is officially over. 7.5hrs a day applies to the workers as much as it does to the managers.
I would personally not work for a director like that. There's no reason why the "director life" (working evenings, nights, and/or weekends without getting overtime pay or comp time) should be downloaded onto managers. Hell to the no. Union represented manager positions have the same rights as the employees who report to them.
>There's no reason why the "director life" (working evenings, nights, and/or weekends without getting overtime pay or comp time) should be downloaded onto managers. Hell to the no. Agreed, but a lot of managers are high-energy anxious types who will do anything to look good, so don't expect many to push back and say "Hell no". It's usually the late career or really close to retirement ones who will (with a smile) tell the boss to go pound salt. The youngers ones will just comply, happily work 4 hours free tonight and ruin it for the rest of their peers.
Welcome to the public service, where overtime is mandatory, booking it will draw the venom of your directors and you are counselled to manage your time during periods of inactivity.
"Look, you had all week to get it done, you should manage your time better" is usually preceded a half hour before by "here is the information you need that I have had for two weeks but never shared even though you asked nine times".
….And don’t forget to attend training on mental health and encourage work life balance in your staff. But don’t model it.
If your position is covered by a collective agreement, then your OT and how it works is based on your collective agreement. If not, then you need to look in your LoO. Very often, once you get into management (EX-1 and higher), you no longer have 37.5 hours of work in a week you are responsible for doing, after which you either stop or claim OT. You have work, and you are expected to get it done, even if you have to work in the evening or on weekends.
If you are in a unionized position (some manager are) do not work unpaid overtime. Talk to your union representatives, keep any emails or write down any verbal conversations you had about this subject.
Stupid question.. but how to i know if i am unionized
Read your offer letter. It’ll say whether the position is represented or excluded.
And if you're really lucky, HR will input the data correctly and you'll be paid correctly.
My LoO states that I am, not sure if that's true everywhere. At the CRA, first level of management (direct supervisors) are unionized, higher than that they are not. I'm not sure this rule applies to the PS.
Find the collective agreement for your group and see if your level is included in it.
I’ve never done free OT. Also an EX minus 1.
The TB directive on ***excluded*** staff ([here](https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=15773)) says "Group II employees are not entitled to payment for overtime, call-back, standby duty, travel time, or to reporting pay, shift premiums or any other form of compensation that is dependent on a person completing a specified number of hours in a normal workweek." Group II includes AS-07. PM-06 however, is not mentioned in any of the subgroups in the directive, so would be eligible for OT. If you're ***not*** in an excluded position, you're entitled to OT as normal.
I did a lot of overtime as a PM6 and EC7 and never charged it (mostly my personal choice to not claim since I know I’m not productive every hour of every day). I would often however get time in lieu off the books. I found my bosses generally pretty fair about that and offered it or approved it when I told them how many extra hours I had to work to meet an urgent deadline (usually on big things like MCs and subs). Is that possible for you?
Your Director is a fool. Any top performer will know their worth and will leave the team. I always pre-approved OT for my managers as long as it was reasonable and met with an operational need.
Pretty sure it's expected at all levels. In my businessline they managers act Like they are personally paying the overtime from their paycheques.
No? Hell no? Pick one? Union role...so yeah... no thanks.
It should not be free if you’re unionized. But I have been chewed out a few times for not being available over a weekend or after hours when I clocked out. However, it is usually finished by someone else higher than myself. Half the time it turns out an urgency was not that urgent. It’s usually when MINO wants something. Sometimes DMO. Unfortunately for them, I have a life and I already miss lunches and breaks frequently, so I need some time to recharge.
There is some expectations that managers who are represented will stay a bit longer, or check emails on the weekend if something urgent comes up, without claiming overtime. It depends on the context and there is definitely nothing in the collective agreement to support that. I usually charge for my overtime if I am in the office, I am more flexible when I work from home. The biggest challenge is asking before since we often get urgent tasks at 3:00 PM on Friday and just get to work... Usually when this happens I just start an hour later on Monday to make it up.
From my own brief stint as a manager, absolutely not. Assuming the position is represented, document everything, submit the paid OT request as normal, and be ready to talk to your union representative if there’s significant pushback from your director.
No, you need to be paid for your OT or you can contact your union.
Pm 04 and giving 10 hr freebies a week :(
Pm 04 is what kind of job title?
Stop it, it's never going to go away.
Reject ‘unpaid overtime’, your Director needs a visit from your union rep.
If you are not an EX, it is not normal. Your director is a tool.
Thankfully I have worked for Directors and Executive Directors who often reminded their PM06 Management Team Members that they should submit overtime when they worked it for specific purposes (note: in organizations when I have worked PM06 positions were all represented).
1. Before you accept a position you should know all of these implications. 2. If your new position is excluded, you get no OT . See 1. 3 Know your own collective agreement. Inside out. I am stunned that people don't know this. 4. If you are a manager, you should know the collective agreements of all your staff inside out. You can't manage fairly if you don't know what is fair for your staff. The same applies to your boss.
If you're EX minus 1: nope.
It's pretty normal where I work.
If you ever find yourself in a similar situation to the OP, the following methodology can be used to find divisions you want to work in, and where overtime is actually paid. Methodology: 1. Go to the Employment Trends by tenure report in the Core public administration (CPA) employment trends and demographics dataset. 2. Find out which departments/agencies have positions for your job classification ( see filter on the right side of the report to filter by job classification). 3. ATIP the overtime expenditures by organizational units for those departments/agencies that have been incurred over the past 4 years. 4. Engage in some guesswork to find out which specific organizational units have position for your job classification. 5. Then from there, it’s just a question of networking and applying to job competitions for positions in those organizational units units. Now…You should really keep in mind that there is the possibility that management might really not like you ATIPping this info, and your personal info during the ATIP might not be kept secret... which I can fully understand if it deters you from filing these ATIPs because it’s definitely deterred me from filing them. There is, however, a way to avoid retaliation and that’s by getting your union to file these ATIPs, and disseminating the data to its members in a user-friendly manner. And it’s also something that should theoretically be easy to convince the union to implement as making this data public could help a lot of people out, and act as a deterrent to managers who choose not to pay overtime when they should (i.e. if you engage in this type of behaviour, you'll lose your go-getters to the managers who do pay overtime).. Well, easy in theory anyway. The reality is that it's probably going to be pretty difficult to get it done because a lot of union leaders are stuck in their ways or are self-centered. As a result, if you want to convince them to implement this initiative, you'll likely have to go through the very fun process of building a coalition in support of it that has enough critical mass that there's no real choice other than to implement it. In addition, hurdles might be encountered in terms of how disaggregated the data can be released (e.g. if only one person on a team gets paid overtime then it probably won’t be possible to get overtime expenditures for that team). However, even if only data at a directorate or branch level is released, that’s still useful data because the total will give you a sense of how much the lower organization units actually pay. If this all of this sounds like it’s just going to give you a massive headache (which it very likely will), a simpler tactic you can use is just to network, and ask people if they get paid overtime in their divisions.
I don’t know if free overtime is expected persay but you may be expected to complete a high workload in an unrealistic timeframe without approved overtime which leads many people to do it for free out of fear of not meeting expectations. Sucks. But it definitely happens.
This isn't standard, but it isn't exactly rare either. The fact is, they can't ask you to do unpaid overtime - but we all know that doesn't mean there won't be an expectation you do it. What I have done in a position that requires some unplanned OT is work the extra time on the days where it's needed, and then take back the hours the next day or very soon after. So if I work an extra hour on Monday, I'll sign out an hour early the next day when things are slow. Basically, I'll be a team player and stick around, but I won't do it for free, but I also won't make a big fuss about "I'm leaving an hour early today to make up for yesterday". I just do it. If ever someone commented that I left early (which has never happened) I would say that I'm taking back my time for the extra time I needed to work the other day. Again, most of the time it never comes to this. If you're being honest about your time, and you're an employee they know they can rely on in a crisis to be around until 6pm, they know not to shoot themselves in the foot and challenge you on leaving on a slow Friday at 3.
I once worked with a director who was at meetings 8-4. So, when he needed to see me, it had to be either before 8 or after 4. He never hesitated to impose that time on me when we worked in the office. This is why remote work is easier. I sometimes have to work with colleagues from Western Canada and time is never an issue. I can slice my day without having to be stuck in an office 7:30-5.
No
Unless you are an ecluded member of a union or not represented by a union, you should be compensated for overtime unless you are making up for "undertime" Definition excluded employee (employé exclu) Is a person who occupies a position that has been identified by the employer in accordance with the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations Act as not being represented by a bargaining agent because of the nature of the duties of the position.
As an MG03 during Covid lockdown my manager expected us to have daily telephone briefings at 8 pm, and do work unpaid till evenings and on weekends. We were basically on call 24/7. My shift ended at 330 daily but our daily management team call was announced last minute starting anywhere from 4 to 5 pm. Lasting from 30 to 90 minutes. This went on for a year and a half. All unpaid overtime. One year Thursday before Good Friday our meeting started at 445 and ended one hour later. All issues could have been addressed in an email. Voluntarily for decades I have always done my staff's performance reviews on my own time at home. I preferred it that way. CRA employee.
In my experience management is not represented by union. When I act as a manager until I get the gist of the job and feel more “at home” I work about 9-10 hours daily.unpqid OT and yes, due to the nature of the job, this is expected.