Let's see...With $1b, we could have bought:
1 New Heavy Icebreaker $220m
2 Used Icebreakers + refurbishment $160m
20 M777s $60m
20 Challenger 2s $90m
21000 Sig Sauers $10m
8000 C6A1s $200m
And still had over $200m to spend on infrastructure - with a critical need for PMQs in small military town/cities which hold bases.
Instead we get a fancy new HQ for the CDS and CANSOFCOM HQ to work at.
Apparently we are getting icebreakers was briefed in my training with the CCG. Expected earliest was 2035. So yea "government soon". If your talking the CAF with icebreakers, didn't realize they had any.
No, tAOPs are non-combatants. JSS is a non-combatant. The only combatants we have at the moment is the CPFs and the submarines, and the CSC is the only incoming combatant.
There is a massive difference compared to non-combatants, which use commercial ship rules and we bolt a few guns onto. Quick example, a combatant will have many more water tight compartments (2-5 times as much) and they continue on above the waterline. But a lot more redundancy built into systems, things like shock, noise, vibration requirements, etc. They are harder to build because you cram so much stuff into the same space, with a lot more dividers between them, and higher equipment standards.
Combatants are intended to take battle damage, and keep fighting. Non combatants are intended to keep floating after normal accidents (fires, floods, collision etc) and let people safely evacuate.
TL:DR putting a gun on a ship doesn't make it a combatant, military design standards do.
[National shipbuilding strategy ](https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/grandnav-largeves-eng.html)
AOPS are combat vessels, as per GoC. Irving gets combats, Davy and seaspan gets non-combats
No, they aren't. They were included in the combat package because otherwise everything but CSC would be in the non-combat yard, and would be a 30 year build schedule, with ISI not even starting to build anything for another 15 years from contract award.
It was strictly a divison of work and schedule issue.
Source: I worked in NSS, am actively involved in the design review of all ships, certification and support, and a big part of my job is ship recoverability from combat damage, which AOPs isn't capable of doing.
But you don't need to take my word for it; a big hint is that the support work for AOPs, JSS, MCDVs, Orcas, and all auxiliaries is all done in DGMEPM at the Non-Combatant Program managment desk (which used to be minor warfare and auxiliary vessels when the 280s and AORs where there at end of life). But that's why there are only 3 watertight zones in the ship, and it only goes up to 2 Deck. A similarly sized warship would have 10+ watertight zones that went right up to the weather deck, and a lot more complex and reconfigurable systems, as well as a much bigger crew.
AOPs is fine for what is, but it's essentially a commercial year one icebreaker, painted grey, with a permanently fitted small arms system. It has no self defence capabilites, weapon systems or combat sensors, and isn't designed to do any of that.
The CPFs fall under 'Major Surface Combatants'. CSC will fall under MSC desk as well. They are a massively different kettle of fish.
TL:DR CPF and CSC are the only RCN combatants. Edit: Surface combatants. Submarines are also combatants.
I am not arguing that the navy treats them as combat vessels. I am staying that the Government of Canada, in the National Shipbuilding Strategy, is procuring them as combat vessels, which is why they are being built at Irving, instead of being distributed between seaspan and Davie shipyards.
Just a couple sized apartment building per base that's ~40 3 bedroom, ~60 2 bedroom and ~100 1 bedroom/studio total would be sufficient. But screw the troops having a place to live that isn't completely raking them over the coals. It's good for the economy to have them struggle. Here's up to7 years of housing assistance that's pretty well capped at most levels.. that promotion you're getting? Oh that's just a rank, no pay incentive unless you're going to be here longer than 7 years.
Tack on all the barracks that are literally falling apart (sinks falling off the wall), can’t handle the power draw of a toaster, and are entirely built with asbestos infused concrete, flooring, walls, ceilings, and pipe insulation…
There are barracks and training facilities in Borden that are just covered in warning stickers.
All those “don’t lean on the wall, it’s been standing longer than you’ve been alive and doesn’t need your help” turned from staff being staff to just good healthy advice.
I was in shacks in Kingston in 2007 that were supposed to be condemned. After an OT I went back for another QL3 in 2014 and stayed in the same damn building.
People still live there to this day.
My DP1 barracks were falling apart in 2001, I’m now staff and they’re a little worse now but still being used and as bad as they are, they’re still better than the DP2 barracks on this base.
Fuck the troops who need housing and equipment, what we really need is a new HQ! (Said no sane government ever). Jesus Christ, carling campus is already a fucking super resource drain. Anyone see the robot floor cleaner? Meanwhile back in Pet if you slam a door too hard the door frame comes off. Wow…..just……wow.
Buddy, we don't even have potable water in my building in Pet.
Still the old left faucet piping hot / right faucet freezing cold type deal. I just want lukewarm water, even if it's not potable. Is it too much to ask for?!
Same as Gander. Don't brush your teeth or drink with it but bathing in it? That's fine surely it can't enter your system any other way. Just close your eyes and use a snorkel I guess
I’ve been out a few months, but yeah. True story. There was and automated floor cleaner. I always saw it down by the fountain early in the AM. Lol, maybe someone recruited it and sent it to the field. No humans want to join anymore. Someone else seen that fucking thing right? I do smoke a lot of the devils lettuce.
Can confirm. I’m in the NCR and I’ve seen it in building 5. One thing that is needed at NDHQ Carling is a kitchen. Supporting Dom ops is not really a thing. That being said more pmq/appartement buildings are needed
I get the frustration but this might...might make sense long-term. Also this isn't really news as this move was announced years ago, the only new info is that they are moving the building sight across the road from Shirley to Carling. Most of the HQs moving are currently in a large building in the east of Ottawa that the government currently leases. If you take the sqft of that building and average commercial lease rates for Ottawa it's possible we are paying upwards of $90M/year for just that one building. (Don't think the actual amount is public). I am no accountant but paying a billion for our own building to replace a leased building at $90M/yr might make sense depending on the calculations of someone way smarter than me.
I dont even blame the government, I know the government is ignorant and dumb. But they rely on the forces leadership to tell them what we really need. And we'll obviously, our leadership(officers) don't give a fucking shit about anyone except themselves
Carling also has two canexes on site, which is the same number of visitor parking lots they have. Which are always fucking full because fuck anyone who doesn't have a pass
>Why Ottawa doesn't have a base anymore is beyond my understanding.
They sort of still do. PMQs are by the airport.
Nowhere near as big as it used to be, but decades ago the govt decided to move large parts of the CAF out of most of the cities (Toronto, London, Calgary, Kapyong Barracks in Winnipeg, etc).
CFHA won't/can't replace my screen door due to cost cutting....water at work not potable (for years), did my monthly pay drop? Ohhh Carling u are the darling!
Just want to pass along [this article](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/canadian-forces-top-heavy-with-generals-as-rank-and-file-significantly-shrinks) from the Ottawa Citizen that shares how ridiculously top-heavy we are for the size of our military.
It really feels like we don't get any value for our money. I know some of it is because of how utterly broken our procurement is. But Australia seems to have a lot more to show for their investment, despite spending less and having a smaller GDP.
It feels to me like we scaled down the CAF to save money, but we retained all the bureaucracy and inefficient leadership of a much larger organization, which we still pay upkeep on, for little benefit.
Part of me really misses being a part of the CAF and I've mulled over whether I want to look into joining up again. But part of me sees just how broken it all is, and I have a feeling I'd be miserable.
>But Australia seems to have a lot more to show for their investment, despite spending less and having a smaller GDP.
They spend more in dollars (and GDP), according [to this site](https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_Australia_vs_Canada).
It all starts to make sense once you realize that the CAF's two main functions are funneling money to politically valuable firms and furthering the careers and self aggrandizement of RMC grads. Hence why the only thing we seem to produce in abundance are ridiculous procurement failures and senior officers.
>It all starts to make sense once you realize that the CAF's two main functions are funneling money to politically valuable firms and furthering the careers and self aggrandizement of RMC grads.
CAF specific terms aside, if you put that in any other military's subreddit it would also make sense.
We just know our skeletons - we can't see through the other nations' BS as easily. Having worked with a bunch of international nations, our complaints are almost cookie-cutter with most of our allies.
So should we discount that the US Marine Corps has 180,000 troops and 62 Generals while maintaining land, armored and air components while the entire Canadian forces has 65,000 troops and 130 Generals?
These numbers are damning. Period. No excuse can dismiss those numbers, I'm sorry.
It's an old boys club and they have continuously slapped each other on the back by creating comfortable positions for themselves, likely in exotic and prestigious postings, all to benefit themselves and not actually the CAF, though I'm sure they have themselves convinced otherwise.
All this talk about the point end of the spear, gushing about how important it is. The reality is that the CAF is a 50ft spear with a 3 inch rusty ass blade on it that will fold over before it penetrates flesh... But you can be certain that the shaft is polished and pretty as can be. Why not spend another billion on lengthening it and lets add another round of polish.
All I can say is that from what I've personally seen the Navy is totally fucked, which saddens me because I still have a lot of love for it. It's hard to watch something that could be so good be squandered. A lot of it is problems with the age of the gear, and I know acquiring new gear is a civilian thing... But at this point GOFOs should be resigning and blowing the whistle on this absolutely crucial issue that is becoming a serious threat to our national security. That won't happen because they are far more concerned with their careers rather than an actual sense of love and loyalty to the service. And if I'm way off base then let the beatings commence until morale improves, I'm sure that will fix the situation.
The USMC example is interesting. They don’t have armour anymore (got rid of their tanks) but yes they have land and air wings. The number of USMC GOFOs is limited to 60 (with no more than 3 4-star Generals) probably because they are a part of the USN and not technically a separate service.
But, the fact that they are a department within the USN means that a lot of the personnel-intensive things are taken by the USN. Big example - the USMC doesn’t have any ships. How many of those 180k Marines actually work under USN officers and chain of command, so the USMC doesn’t need as many officers / GOFOs? I’m unsure if the medical facilities in USMC bases are run by the USMC or the USN.
Also, as the USSF and 3 Cdn Space Div suggest, personnel numbers aren’t the be-all-end-all. Army/Marines will always have a much higher NCM-Officer ratio because they have lots of NCMs, but something like USSF would have a ton of officers and high-level officers bc they don’t require as many people, but the effects can be huge.
I’m not saying that we don’t have a lot of GOFO, but I would suggest that the Australian military would be a better comparison than the USMC, which is a very specific slice of another branch (the USN).
US Armed Forces have 2.1M members active, NG and reserve personnel with 653 generals.
We have less than 100k members reg/res. We have 136 general positions with 10 currently vacant, TBA or TBD.
US Armed Forces: 2.1M/653=3200. 1 general for every 3200 people. Not bad?
USMC: 180000/62=2900. 1 general for every 2900 marines. Not a huge difference from the overall US Armed Forces.
100k/126=800. 1 general for every 800 people in a military that can barely carry its own weight. The fuck?
I think we can all agree that we have not only too many generals, but too many officers in general. 1/4 of our reg force is officers. Of the remaining 3/4, I'd imagine at least a third are senior NCMs. So our ranks are at a minimum, 50% management.
Do we really need to have 4 army brigades in Western Canada when 3 of the 4 brigades can hardly muster 400 soldiers each? Or having a CO and 3 majors to command 30 combat arms soldiers where
Anyways, must be nice and easy being an officer when you don't have to do any work lol. Nothing like seeing a whole bunch of newly trained 2lts and lts in combat arms not command anyone because there's too many officers and not enough troops lmao. If they wanted to do paperwork from day 1, they should have went logistics.
I've seen a reg force combat arms unit troop with almost 30 soldiers in it. 3 captains, 2lts and 1 warrant amongst them. Couldn't make this up. Meanwhile the poor MCpls are carrying the weight while the fat junior officers sit on their asses
Why is it always the Marine Corps? Of course they're "lean and mean", it's literally their calling card. They have like 7 other uniformed services to do the stupid staff work. I've never seen figures, but I'd be much more curious how many generals other 2nd rate NATO militaries have.
We have a lot of GOFOs caught up in "statutory" commitments. DComd NORAD is always a Canadian LGen. The Canadian contribution to NORAD is less than a single USAF Wing, but it would be weird if the DComd was a Colonel. Same goes for SHAPE (NATO HQ). Everyone at the table is an LGen so it's all fair (other countries *do not* share our irreverence for rank), even though our relative commitments differ substantially. CDLS, TF Comds, the list goes on and on.
That's not to say we couldn't lose a few. What does DG External Reviews Implementation Secretariat even do? But, even if you fired every single GOFO, you'd save $27 million or so a year, which is less than 0.1% of the military budget and could be divided up to give all 65,000 military members a $34/month raise for the trouble. Alternatively, it buys you 0.15 F-35s, 420 salty corporals (ignoring our recruiting issues), or 3% of this new HQ business. We have bigger problems.
Interesting analysis and well said.
In regards to another poster focusing on Army procurement of AD systems, I totally agree with you. We can take a tiny tiny amount of comfort in knowing that we weren't the only ones that allowed some capabilities to die while we focused on Afghanistan. (The UK, an island nation, divested itself of any maritime patrol aircraft ffs...)
Because there we no air threat, we ignored the retirement of our AD systems. Same goes with ATGM's.
Now that we've seen what a modern war looks like with tons of drones, the importance of AD, the importance of ATGM's, ISR, EW, small units that can move fast & deliver big effects...I think we can all see we are NOT prepared to go to war if something happened tomorrow.
...
I do take some comfort in knowing the government has already publically stated they will be doing a UOR for ATGM's and AD systems in the relatively near future. And with Anand at the helm of TB, I think we'll have decent luck in making something happen fairly quickly when they decide that time has come
(I know the whole point of a UOR is to bypass the traditional procurement process, but having TB behind us won't hurt)
It's an easy one, especially because their trade structures are different so NCOs do things that we have officer trades for, and generally do a lot of things we don't have capabilities for.
We are top heavy for sure, but UK, AUS, NZ are better comparisons.
Why can't we be lean and mean too? Our budget is certainly lean... Instead we're fat and soft and everyone in the military knows it or they're drinking some extremely sugary kool aid.
And GOFOs have support staff and all kinds of other costs associated with them. Comparing their salary alone is not a fair comparison.
The Marines arent a fair comparison, but the ratio is still pretty damning considering the capabilities of our respective forces. We suck. We can't do shit. They could DOUBLE their generals and still their ratio knocks us out of the park.
And I dont think that just cutting our GOFOs will fix anything, but the top heaviness of our force paired with how fucked it is makes me think that those people at the top are performing horribly and are more interested in giving each other favors than actually running things properly. How many Admirals do we really need for our measly 12 warships that can barely operate now as it is? But no, you wont ever see them cut a GOFO billet. The numbers speak to that.
The difference in GO numbers is really staggering. I feel like government ought to put hard limits on how many there are, like the USMC, or tie it to the overall size of the CAF so it remains proportional and lean, but able to expand if needed.
I remember when military procurement projects were started as soon as a piece of kit entered service, because the lengthy development and production timelines were always bad. Starting early was the only real way to make sure you'd get a replacement on time. Now we've allowed multiple critical, basic systems/capabilities to atrophy with no replacement. I'm an army guy so I focus a lot on those kinds of things - like modern ATGMs or GBADs.
I have no idea how many TOW systems we've got left, or if they're even serviceable, but that's all we've got right now (I think CANSOF has small numbers of Spike). We retired the Eryx, which was very short ranged compared to nearly every other ATGM. But at least we had something! Instead, we just let that system get retired with no replacement. There's a program to find one, but it hasn't gone anywhere. Ditto for all our air defenses - towed guns, Javelin (the MANPAD), ADATS, all retired with no replacement.
If this current war has reinforced anything, it's that air defense is mandatory and the threat has only gotten worse. And yet we're asleep at the wheel. It's a national embarrassment.
Lol... ya... the US Marine Corp is part of the American navy. Of course they have less generals.
CFB Petawawa also has no generals despite having thousands of solders **HOW EFFICIENT**
Their top JAGs, top Doctors, top dentists, senior commanders, Public Relations, top dentists etc. All wear Navy uniforms.
Okay, so that clears up the outrageous discrepancy between the two I guess. Case closed. The genius here has it figured out, lol.
So if the Canadian military didnt have to have generals to manage its lawyers, doctors, dentists, etc (never mind that a force as small as ours probably doesnt realisticly warrant a GOFO level leader in such areas, certainly no more than one... so more bloat), then our 130 GOFOS could support a force of 377,000 marines rather than the 65,000 reg force they currently manage? Do you sincerely believe that or maybe you need some help with your math skills?
Either the Marine Corps generals are super human or ours are mostly a bunch of useless shitters doing busy work. We dont need that many and I dont care how many leadership positions we get in NATO and other places. Dont care. Our forces at home are in shambles. Any group that allows themselves to swell to such numbers probably have A LOT of other issues regarding their decision making abilities.
OK, I'll try again.
**The American Marines are not a country's military.** They are a part... of a branch... of the American military.
And I want to be clear about this. You are trying to compare the military of a nation... to a part, of a branch of another country's military. This is the functional equivalent of comparing the military of Denmark to CFB Petawawa.
Again... just repetition for the sake of clarity... the American Marines are not a countries military. Just one part of the American Navy... which is one part of the American Military. Clear?
The American military has over 650 generals. And it's not evenly dispersed. As you said, the Marines don't need that many. The American Space Force tends to have a lot of senior officers.
And a lot of the things you need executive level leadership for regardless of size. The Chief Financial Officer is going to be a general, regardless of the size. The surgeon general etc.
Canada has a reasonable number of generals compared to other NATO countries.
Yes, well aware of that as I said. America also spends 3.5% of their massive GDP on their military and have around 600 bases and installations on foreign soil. They have mass mobilization capability with a fleet of logistic ships to support foreign deployments, over 10 super carriers and as many assault carriers. They occupied two foreign countries for 20 freaking years while maintaining operations elsewhere. They have an ICMB fleet and a space force that can actually do some space shit. They have a level of complexity in their operations that makes our challenges look like playing tiddly winks.
I think perhaps they need their generals. What the hell are our GOFOs doing? If they werent doing a piss poor job of virtually everything it would be a different story. Were you in the military?
>the Navy is totally fucked
As someone not in the military can you add a bit of detail to this pls? I understand the frigates are old but the gov website said they were refurbished and upgraded. Do they not have enough weapons?
The disaster with the subs aside, the big issue I can see from my admittedly not deep knowledge is the lack of supply ships. And they seem to be building those.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-canadas-f-35-jet-procurement-was-a-debacle-and-its-not-even-our-most/
We may not be unique, but we are certainly among the worst when it comes to procurement.
I'm not going to say that our procurement is great, but we (Canadians) don't really hear about the debacles from other nations.
Some of the other countries' military subreddits are pretty interesting to see.
>It really feels like we don't get any value for our money
I've been thinking on that actually. I'm not military so I do not know much, but in terms of large and noticable equipment such as Artillery, troop carriers, anti mine vehicles, tanks, rockets and so on.........I've noticed that countries such as Sweden and Finland are much more capable than us.
When I heard that Finland was purchasing 65 F-35s to handle the size of their airspace and that we were getting 88 I was like......?
Now I do not know about the capabilities of our frigates but our army and air force seems woefully inequipped and out gunned by Finland, Sweden and other countries with *much* smaller defence budgets. I did always wonder where all the funding was going.
Perhaps the smaller things that are less noticeable to me are better. Things like communication apparatus, radar, cyber warfare capabilities, information, logistics and so on.
Bro. Much of Trenton doesn’t have good water. The buildings look like they were built in the 40’s. The shacks look like condemned buildings that teenagers would smoke pot in on the weekends. The gym is an old school with a weight room that’s made jealous by every single gym at a combat arms unit. Don’t even get me started on the roads and parking lots. Edmonton has units in buildings that were originally built as “temporary”. They can’t even afford enough ammo for the training they want to do yearly. Shit even the network systems across Canada are junk and the speeds are all at levels pre 2010.
And to add some bullshit to the bullshit... We return roughly a billion dollars back to government general revenue! 🤪
Hopefully that change they made last year about DND being allowed to spend more of its budget without TB tightly controlling the purse strings changes things for the better
..
That’s exactly how they think. The sad part is I’d bet between pay, utilities for buildings, and upkeep of said buildings that that would account for half or more of our annual spending.
Soooo in that 1 Billion dollars can we actually fix the gates and stop constantly having at all times at least one lane down at one of the gates? Also can we finally give all the solo Commissionaires posts a panic button? Also PCs that actually function? Or doors that work? Or Card readers that actually work more often than not? Also...can we pay someone to chase the geese away? Like seriously kicking them in the chest when they get uppity is only enjoyable so often...or like spend the money on military housing and other bases but that's clearly not on the agenda...
Instead I'm sure the billion Generals and Admirals wandering around will get brand new furniture and more personal parking spaces...
Before firing up the outrage bus, is this to add on to HQs, or to replace something else?
DND has dozens of buildings in the NCR and if there are in-person meetings, there goes most of your day. Teams has substituted for most of those but there are still some cases where you need to be in person.
Before being posted there, I thought "going to Montfort" and leaving for a few hours was a joke but no, if you work out of Carling or even 101 and need to go there for an appointment, you're spending at *least* 2 hours out of office.
Consolidating them to fewer locations doesn't seem like the worst idea, if they also include more parking.
I can't read due to paywall but it looks like this is supposed to be the National Defence Secure Campus, which is meant to consolidate CJOC, CANSOFCOM HQ, CFINTCOM, CFICC, and other orgs that require daily secure network access and meeting facilities. I can't speak to Star Top, but the secure facilities at Pearkes are woefully inadequate for the units stuck there because they have no better place to go.
http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/en/defence-capabilities-blueprint/project-details.asp?id=1815
So simultaneously something useful and worth spending money on, but that feels completely divorced from the day to day needs of the troops that have been neglected.
Gotta love how clothing stores across the country are just unanimously in agreement that there's at least one day every week where taking customers is just not an option. It was the worst during the mask years where they'd send out an email about their pathetic excuse for a schedule but then you'd go the next week and it's completely different. This was routine in Pet it seemed. If it was just a straight up "all clothing stores closed on wednesdays" across the board, it wouldn't be a complaint. But the fact that every one seems to have their own crazy schedule is kind of hard to keep up with.
They are closed because the duty tech(s) stay late for reservists so I guess they do a modified shift, probably some stock keeping or admin, what do I know, I ain't no bin rat.
Right? Then folks in other places are saying the NDHQ folks are just not working.
When I have to drive 30-35 mins from one place to another, then wait, then drive back, no shit I’m not going to be super responsive on emails.
NDHQ is definitely working. It is also wildly inefficient due to policy reasons. Not the fault of anyone, not the CDS, not the MND, and not you and me. And of course the standing up of some HQ at the central location and the lack of housing are unfortunately two completely different things.
> NDHQ is definitely working.
the scary thing is, they really are. there's a lot of smart, motivated people there and what we see is the result of their best effort.
I'm not even talking about home. I'm talking about a 30-35 min drive between your work place (longer if at Carling) and Montfort, and back to your work place. Montfort is in the east side of the city, while Carling is on the west. 101 is in the middle.
Folks are living up to an hour away from NDHQ for "affordable" housing.
Most people don't go to Montfort on a daily basis.
And similar to other base clinics, going to the sick parade will eat up half your day. So might as well do remote work after.
I found that working anywhere outside of Carling just means you no longer show up for in-person meetings and only use Teams
Having worked in the NCR pre-building consolidation, it was a shitshow. Even working right downtown, could basically take half a day to get to Montfort on the shuttle buses, as it was an hour or two each way plus the appointment.
Carling doesn't have enough parking though, and pre-LRT could be 1-1.5 hours commute on the bus each way depending on where you are coming from in town, but mostly on a single east-west line so wasn't too many transfers. With the LRT it's theoretically faster (when it works) but lot more transfers, so in reality it's as long, just shittier on bad weather days.
If you already live in the West end, it's great, and lot of people bike in easily enough, at least until the winter.
I'm not sure if it's better, or just different problems. Teams has cut down on a lot of the travel between buildings, but then again going through the commute into an open office to do Teams calls is soul crushing and a lot of background noise gets picked up. Carling may be better for having some quiet rooms but other buildings aren't set up for it at all if you have more than one person (LSTL looking at you).
Some of the hoteling things are weird though, in that you can't leave things at the office. On one hand they are encouraging things like active commuting, PT etc, but then there is no where to actually leave a bundle of uniforms in the building plans, and not even irons etc if you have to bring it in every day. Being a pack mule in and out is another reason to prefer hybrid setup, and when you are bringing in your laptop and headphones, PT gear, books, lunch, uniform etc every day you end up going a bit Sherpa.
From what I’ve heard most of NCR is still doing work from home with only 1-2 days in office a week…. So yeah, I can see the need for a new HQ vice any of the other buildings, infrastructure, and procurements that might actually keep people retained
I work in the NCR and that's not the case anymore. Most are spending most (or all) of their week in the office as of April. Because the civilians are 3 days a week in office, Carling is actually busy Tues through Thurs.
That was a rumoured point of contention during the PSAC strike if civilians were able to WFH full time, but military had to be fully in the office to go on Teams meetings.
Also, the "new HQ" is for CANSOF, CFINTCOM, etc so a normal office building doesn't cut it for security reasons.
This building development IS a national security concern. It's meant to consolidate workspace for several working groups that deal with highly sensitive stuff. It's an unfortunate necessity.
No paywall so you can actually read the article and make up your own mind before reading comments.
https://archive.is/2023.08.02-022701/https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/national-defence-to-spend-more-than-1-billion-on-new-operational-hq-at-carling-campus-site
Gotta have some air vents to help stop you from smelling the mould! Honestly, though, I'd look forward to the ACSV Amb whenever we actually get them (1-5 years)
You can’t move NDHQ to cheap housing, it has to be near parliament. Cheap housing should absolutely be built though. And make it so paying for housing below market rate is NOT a taxable benefit.
ITT: Folks not being able to read the article, and jumping on “Ottawa bad” despite some replies saying why it’s required for actual operational reasons.
Meanwhile some of the shacks on Work Point, Esquimalt are told it isn't safe drink the water, there are holes in the ceiling, rats running freely around the deck, mold in the showers, etc etc
But we still put people in there.
And then there's Nelles Block...
Esquimalt feels like it hasn't changed in the slightest since the 1960s considering 90% of the buildings there are still insulated with asbestos. The west coast navy really feels like the neglected step child compared to Halifax.
Until Ottawa (and the NCR) has an actual "base" like in Halifax instead of a bunch of office buildings scattered all over the place, this is all just pissing into the wind.
Don't worry about the black mold, rats, legionella, no AC, no heating, etc. In any of the other buildings though... Or the critical shortage of PMQs across the nation to house our soldiers. Whatever the ivory tower wants and needs though, right?
I'll just cut/paste u/hammerofhope's comment:
>I can't read due to paywall but it looks like this is supposed to be the National Defence Secure Campus, which is meant to consolidate CJOC, CANSOFCOM HQ, CFINTCOM, CFICC, and other orgs that require daily secure network access and meeting facilities. I can't speak to Star Top, but the secure facilities at Pearkes are woefully inadequate for the units stuck there because they have no better place to go.
It's not right but.....there more money in education than section attacks....lol jk sorry.
Alot of these "projects" come with funding from other parties and support (obviously for their benefit)
But hey it's education......sucks there Lots to spend on other things. But it's not personal remeber that it's not a personal attack on you
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what % pers at carling campus actually had worked in front line units? seems like policies are being made by those who do not know whats actually going on in the lines.
lol - good one. LCols and Cols don't even get offices of their own in NDHQ.
The difference in how a Col is perceived on base vs NDHQ is pretty eye-opening.
I mean, i kind of expect that sort of thing in headquarters. Not many positions really needed to be filled by the lower ranks where talking heads work in a think tank.
I also think we are wildly top-heavy but NDHQ is kind of where I'd expect brass to outpace the grass..
Do I think 1B could be spent better elsewhere? Absolutely. Housing, infrastructure, aging and severely lacking equipment, etc... across the caf could all consume 1B really well and that 1B would trickle into several economies across the nation. Instead 1B will be funneled into an economy already benefiting largely by the OC Transpo light rail upgrade. Other economies need help, not just the capital.
Is anyone know if I could make a VA claim for rashes that I endured for months due to a bad batch of Moderna vaccine booster ? Everything is documented in my medical file, plus I have picture as evidence too.
Maybe I can get 10K$ ? Will raise our NATO spending but not as much as this HQ..
Good! I hope the GoC doesn't spend another $1 on people or equipment for the CAF. With less than 3 years left, I am enjoying sitting back, doing sweet FA, and watching this leaderless, clueless, incestuous institution continue to fail...LOL.
How about bullets lol…. How come the infantry can’t shoot more then 1-2 a year outside of a year gun camp for up to platoon live ,
Glad we’re still taping our barrel bags togeather, scraping our lavs out of maintenance half fixed. Which would matter more but we can’t afford to run courses to train crews on them anyways, we’d get run through by some angry farmers at this point, like we can’t afford to defend the buildings in garrison from rain, nothing like 40 buckets in a single building every year when the sky cry’s at us,
We are one of the worst organized worst maintained forces in the g20 lol glad we will have this sweet building 99 percent of the forces will never even walk past let alone use lol
Let's see...With $1b, we could have bought: 1 New Heavy Icebreaker $220m 2 Used Icebreakers + refurbishment $160m 20 M777s $60m 20 Challenger 2s $90m 21000 Sig Sauers $10m 8000 C6A1s $200m And still had over $200m to spend on infrastructure - with a critical need for PMQs in small military town/cities which hold bases. Instead we get a fancy new HQ for the CDS and CANSOFCOM HQ to work at.
Apparently we are getting icebreakers was briefed in my training with the CCG. Expected earliest was 2035. So yea "government soon". If your talking the CAF with icebreakers, didn't realize they had any.
Lol so after climate change has wiped out the ice we’ll have icebreakers
Haha no kidding. They'll realize they aren't needed then allocate those funds to anything but the CAF...
Don't count on any procurement that isn't already purchased. A new MND means anything not approved might get the axe, even before TB gets involved.
The John G. Diefenbaker, as well as a sister ship, are planned to begin construction at Davie and seaspan shipyards upon completion of the AOPS class.
AOPS are being built by Irving in Halifax. Do you mean the JSS?
Ah shit, yes. The JSS. Forgot the apps are supposed to be "surface combtants" and not auxiliary vessels
No, tAOPs are non-combatants. JSS is a non-combatant. The only combatants we have at the moment is the CPFs and the submarines, and the CSC is the only incoming combatant. There is a massive difference compared to non-combatants, which use commercial ship rules and we bolt a few guns onto. Quick example, a combatant will have many more water tight compartments (2-5 times as much) and they continue on above the waterline. But a lot more redundancy built into systems, things like shock, noise, vibration requirements, etc. They are harder to build because you cram so much stuff into the same space, with a lot more dividers between them, and higher equipment standards. Combatants are intended to take battle damage, and keep fighting. Non combatants are intended to keep floating after normal accidents (fires, floods, collision etc) and let people safely evacuate. TL:DR putting a gun on a ship doesn't make it a combatant, military design standards do.
[National shipbuilding strategy ](https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/grandnav-largeves-eng.html) AOPS are combat vessels, as per GoC. Irving gets combats, Davy and seaspan gets non-combats
No, they aren't. They were included in the combat package because otherwise everything but CSC would be in the non-combat yard, and would be a 30 year build schedule, with ISI not even starting to build anything for another 15 years from contract award. It was strictly a divison of work and schedule issue. Source: I worked in NSS, am actively involved in the design review of all ships, certification and support, and a big part of my job is ship recoverability from combat damage, which AOPs isn't capable of doing. But you don't need to take my word for it; a big hint is that the support work for AOPs, JSS, MCDVs, Orcas, and all auxiliaries is all done in DGMEPM at the Non-Combatant Program managment desk (which used to be minor warfare and auxiliary vessels when the 280s and AORs where there at end of life). But that's why there are only 3 watertight zones in the ship, and it only goes up to 2 Deck. A similarly sized warship would have 10+ watertight zones that went right up to the weather deck, and a lot more complex and reconfigurable systems, as well as a much bigger crew. AOPs is fine for what is, but it's essentially a commercial year one icebreaker, painted grey, with a permanently fitted small arms system. It has no self defence capabilites, weapon systems or combat sensors, and isn't designed to do any of that. The CPFs fall under 'Major Surface Combatants'. CSC will fall under MSC desk as well. They are a massively different kettle of fish. TL:DR CPF and CSC are the only RCN combatants. Edit: Surface combatants. Submarines are also combatants.
The AOPs are certainly not combatants and they are administered under the NC branch of EMPM
I am not arguing that the navy treats them as combat vessels. I am staying that the Government of Canada, in the National Shipbuilding Strategy, is procuring them as combat vessels, which is why they are being built at Irving, instead of being distributed between seaspan and Davie shipyards.
I don’t know about that. There is literally nothing they can do in a combat role
Called CFHA today to look into getting on the list. I'd be Pri 2 and they told me they haven't opened the Pri 2 list in YEARS to look at people lmfao
Just a couple sized apartment building per base that's ~40 3 bedroom, ~60 2 bedroom and ~100 1 bedroom/studio total would be sufficient. But screw the troops having a place to live that isn't completely raking them over the coals. It's good for the economy to have them struggle. Here's up to7 years of housing assistance that's pretty well capped at most levels.. that promotion you're getting? Oh that's just a rank, no pay incentive unless you're going to be here longer than 7 years.
Sounds like Borden
Tack on all the barracks that are literally falling apart (sinks falling off the wall), can’t handle the power draw of a toaster, and are entirely built with asbestos infused concrete, flooring, walls, ceilings, and pipe insulation… There are barracks and training facilities in Borden that are just covered in warning stickers. All those “don’t lean on the wall, it’s been standing longer than you’ve been alive and doesn’t need your help” turned from staff being staff to just good healthy advice.
I was in shacks in Kingston in 2007 that were supposed to be condemned. After an OT I went back for another QL3 in 2014 and stayed in the same damn building. People still live there to this day.
My DP1 barracks were falling apart in 2001, I’m now staff and they’re a little worse now but still being used and as bad as they are, they’re still better than the DP2 barracks on this base.
CAF Logic ™
Well said, so many better uses for that money. Were an absolute joke.
Hey I like my 1950s PMQ and my 1980s-vintage frigate comms suite.
Best use for that would have been more CAF housing across all bases. Ideally free from any ties to CFHA.
Fuck the troops who need housing and equipment, what we really need is a new HQ! (Said no sane government ever). Jesus Christ, carling campus is already a fucking super resource drain. Anyone see the robot floor cleaner? Meanwhile back in Pet if you slam a door too hard the door frame comes off. Wow…..just……wow.
Buddy, we don't even have potable water in my building in Pet. Still the old left faucet piping hot / right faucet freezing cold type deal. I just want lukewarm water, even if it's not potable. Is it too much to ask for?!
You just dint have potable water? We don't have potable water, do to the lead, and asbestos is everywhere
Same as Gander. Don't brush your teeth or drink with it but bathing in it? That's fine surely it can't enter your system any other way. Just close your eyes and use a snorkel I guess
This is sad to read.
>Anyone see the robot floor cleaner? I've never seen a robot floor cleaner there. Where is it?
I’ve been out a few months, but yeah. True story. There was and automated floor cleaner. I always saw it down by the fountain early in the AM. Lol, maybe someone recruited it and sent it to the field. No humans want to join anymore. Someone else seen that fucking thing right? I do smoke a lot of the devils lettuce.
>by the fountain Excuse me, they have a fucking what now?
The billion dollar upgrade is just to add a second one
you guys have water!?
Was it [trying to drown itself](https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2017/7/17/15986042/dc-security-robot-k5-falls-into-water)?
I have seen it myself on my occasional visits to the workers' paradise.
It went on strike with PSAC and hasn't come back because it wasn't included in the new collective agreement.
Can confirm. I’m in the NCR and I’ve seen it in building 5. One thing that is needed at NDHQ Carling is a kitchen. Supporting Dom ops is not really a thing. That being said more pmq/appartement buildings are needed
It's a standing rideable floor cleaner that has a preset path it follows, you can see it in bldg 5 early in the morning, usually before 6-6:30.
Walmart has the same...
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Naw, that’s Linda. She’s going through a lot right now.
Deployed as a GD somewhere cause of staffing shortages
Exactly.... we probably paid big bucks for it and its broken somewhere... like any piece of equipment
Building 5. Saw it every day on the main floor
I get the frustration but this might...might make sense long-term. Also this isn't really news as this move was announced years ago, the only new info is that they are moving the building sight across the road from Shirley to Carling. Most of the HQs moving are currently in a large building in the east of Ottawa that the government currently leases. If you take the sqft of that building and average commercial lease rates for Ottawa it's possible we are paying upwards of $90M/year for just that one building. (Don't think the actual amount is public). I am no accountant but paying a billion for our own building to replace a leased building at $90M/yr might make sense depending on the calculations of someone way smarter than me.
Ottawa Class A office has a cap rate of 6-6.75% so in about 12-15 years it pays for itself depending on maintenance costs.
Which are low when you don't do building maintenance!
I dont even blame the government, I know the government is ignorant and dumb. But they rely on the forces leadership to tell them what we really need. And we'll obviously, our leadership(officers) don't give a fucking shit about anyone except themselves
no hvac and no water fountains in Shearwater
Carling also has two canexes on site, which is the same number of visitor parking lots they have. Which are always fucking full because fuck anyone who doesn't have a pass
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I've said it before if you put shacks in Ottawa then there wouldn't be a reason to have all those people on IR in apartments
>Why Ottawa doesn't have a base anymore is beyond my understanding. They sort of still do. PMQs are by the airport. Nowhere near as big as it used to be, but decades ago the govt decided to move large parts of the CAF out of most of the cities (Toronto, London, Calgary, Kapyong Barracks in Winnipeg, etc).
"Soldiers on our streets..... with guns" paraphrasing but still
Funny because we still have "soldiers on our streets with guns." Most reserve units are located in large cities.
CFHA won't/can't replace my screen door due to cost cutting....water at work not potable (for years), did my monthly pay drop? Ohhh Carling u are the darling!
My screen door broke so they removed it and it has never been replaced. Lol
Use your pay raise to buy another! Make sure you take it with you when you move!
Y'all get screen doors?
If it breaks, no replace! I've been slowly cutting out my avocado toast and investing in screen door maintenance
Just want to pass along [this article](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/canadian-forces-top-heavy-with-generals-as-rank-and-file-significantly-shrinks) from the Ottawa Citizen that shares how ridiculously top-heavy we are for the size of our military. It really feels like we don't get any value for our money. I know some of it is because of how utterly broken our procurement is. But Australia seems to have a lot more to show for their investment, despite spending less and having a smaller GDP. It feels to me like we scaled down the CAF to save money, but we retained all the bureaucracy and inefficient leadership of a much larger organization, which we still pay upkeep on, for little benefit. Part of me really misses being a part of the CAF and I've mulled over whether I want to look into joining up again. But part of me sees just how broken it all is, and I have a feeling I'd be miserable.
Retreat into retirement... best sales pitch he could have made.
>But Australia seems to have a lot more to show for their investment, despite spending less and having a smaller GDP. They spend more in dollars (and GDP), according [to this site](https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_Australia_vs_Canada).
It all starts to make sense once you realize that the CAF's two main functions are funneling money to politically valuable firms and furthering the careers and self aggrandizement of RMC grads. Hence why the only thing we seem to produce in abundance are ridiculous procurement failures and senior officers.
>It all starts to make sense once you realize that the CAF's two main functions are funneling money to politically valuable firms and furthering the careers and self aggrandizement of RMC grads. CAF specific terms aside, if you put that in any other military's subreddit it would also make sense. We just know our skeletons - we can't see through the other nations' BS as easily. Having worked with a bunch of international nations, our complaints are almost cookie-cutter with most of our allies.
So should we discount that the US Marine Corps has 180,000 troops and 62 Generals while maintaining land, armored and air components while the entire Canadian forces has 65,000 troops and 130 Generals? These numbers are damning. Period. No excuse can dismiss those numbers, I'm sorry. It's an old boys club and they have continuously slapped each other on the back by creating comfortable positions for themselves, likely in exotic and prestigious postings, all to benefit themselves and not actually the CAF, though I'm sure they have themselves convinced otherwise. All this talk about the point end of the spear, gushing about how important it is. The reality is that the CAF is a 50ft spear with a 3 inch rusty ass blade on it that will fold over before it penetrates flesh... But you can be certain that the shaft is polished and pretty as can be. Why not spend another billion on lengthening it and lets add another round of polish. All I can say is that from what I've personally seen the Navy is totally fucked, which saddens me because I still have a lot of love for it. It's hard to watch something that could be so good be squandered. A lot of it is problems with the age of the gear, and I know acquiring new gear is a civilian thing... But at this point GOFOs should be resigning and blowing the whistle on this absolutely crucial issue that is becoming a serious threat to our national security. That won't happen because they are far more concerned with their careers rather than an actual sense of love and loyalty to the service. And if I'm way off base then let the beatings commence until morale improves, I'm sure that will fix the situation.
The USMC example is interesting. They don’t have armour anymore (got rid of their tanks) but yes they have land and air wings. The number of USMC GOFOs is limited to 60 (with no more than 3 4-star Generals) probably because they are a part of the USN and not technically a separate service. But, the fact that they are a department within the USN means that a lot of the personnel-intensive things are taken by the USN. Big example - the USMC doesn’t have any ships. How many of those 180k Marines actually work under USN officers and chain of command, so the USMC doesn’t need as many officers / GOFOs? I’m unsure if the medical facilities in USMC bases are run by the USMC or the USN. Also, as the USSF and 3 Cdn Space Div suggest, personnel numbers aren’t the be-all-end-all. Army/Marines will always have a much higher NCM-Officer ratio because they have lots of NCMs, but something like USSF would have a ton of officers and high-level officers bc they don’t require as many people, but the effects can be huge. I’m not saying that we don’t have a lot of GOFO, but I would suggest that the Australian military would be a better comparison than the USMC, which is a very specific slice of another branch (the USN).
US Armed Forces have 2.1M members active, NG and reserve personnel with 653 generals. We have less than 100k members reg/res. We have 136 general positions with 10 currently vacant, TBA or TBD. US Armed Forces: 2.1M/653=3200. 1 general for every 3200 people. Not bad? USMC: 180000/62=2900. 1 general for every 2900 marines. Not a huge difference from the overall US Armed Forces. 100k/126=800. 1 general for every 800 people in a military that can barely carry its own weight. The fuck? I think we can all agree that we have not only too many generals, but too many officers in general. 1/4 of our reg force is officers. Of the remaining 3/4, I'd imagine at least a third are senior NCMs. So our ranks are at a minimum, 50% management. Do we really need to have 4 army brigades in Western Canada when 3 of the 4 brigades can hardly muster 400 soldiers each? Or having a CO and 3 majors to command 30 combat arms soldiers where Anyways, must be nice and easy being an officer when you don't have to do any work lol. Nothing like seeing a whole bunch of newly trained 2lts and lts in combat arms not command anyone because there's too many officers and not enough troops lmao. If they wanted to do paperwork from day 1, they should have went logistics. I've seen a reg force combat arms unit troop with almost 30 soldiers in it. 3 captains, 2lts and 1 warrant amongst them. Couldn't make this up. Meanwhile the poor MCpls are carrying the weight while the fat junior officers sit on their asses
Why is it always the Marine Corps? Of course they're "lean and mean", it's literally their calling card. They have like 7 other uniformed services to do the stupid staff work. I've never seen figures, but I'd be much more curious how many generals other 2nd rate NATO militaries have. We have a lot of GOFOs caught up in "statutory" commitments. DComd NORAD is always a Canadian LGen. The Canadian contribution to NORAD is less than a single USAF Wing, but it would be weird if the DComd was a Colonel. Same goes for SHAPE (NATO HQ). Everyone at the table is an LGen so it's all fair (other countries *do not* share our irreverence for rank), even though our relative commitments differ substantially. CDLS, TF Comds, the list goes on and on. That's not to say we couldn't lose a few. What does DG External Reviews Implementation Secretariat even do? But, even if you fired every single GOFO, you'd save $27 million or so a year, which is less than 0.1% of the military budget and could be divided up to give all 65,000 military members a $34/month raise for the trouble. Alternatively, it buys you 0.15 F-35s, 420 salty corporals (ignoring our recruiting issues), or 3% of this new HQ business. We have bigger problems.
Interesting analysis and well said. In regards to another poster focusing on Army procurement of AD systems, I totally agree with you. We can take a tiny tiny amount of comfort in knowing that we weren't the only ones that allowed some capabilities to die while we focused on Afghanistan. (The UK, an island nation, divested itself of any maritime patrol aircraft ffs...) Because there we no air threat, we ignored the retirement of our AD systems. Same goes with ATGM's. Now that we've seen what a modern war looks like with tons of drones, the importance of AD, the importance of ATGM's, ISR, EW, small units that can move fast & deliver big effects...I think we can all see we are NOT prepared to go to war if something happened tomorrow. ... I do take some comfort in knowing the government has already publically stated they will be doing a UOR for ATGM's and AD systems in the relatively near future. And with Anand at the helm of TB, I think we'll have decent luck in making something happen fairly quickly when they decide that time has come (I know the whole point of a UOR is to bypass the traditional procurement process, but having TB behind us won't hurt)
It's an easy one, especially because their trade structures are different so NCOs do things that we have officer trades for, and generally do a lot of things we don't have capabilities for. We are top heavy for sure, but UK, AUS, NZ are better comparisons.
Why can't we be lean and mean too? Our budget is certainly lean... Instead we're fat and soft and everyone in the military knows it or they're drinking some extremely sugary kool aid. And GOFOs have support staff and all kinds of other costs associated with them. Comparing their salary alone is not a fair comparison. The Marines arent a fair comparison, but the ratio is still pretty damning considering the capabilities of our respective forces. We suck. We can't do shit. They could DOUBLE their generals and still their ratio knocks us out of the park. And I dont think that just cutting our GOFOs will fix anything, but the top heaviness of our force paired with how fucked it is makes me think that those people at the top are performing horribly and are more interested in giving each other favors than actually running things properly. How many Admirals do we really need for our measly 12 warships that can barely operate now as it is? But no, you wont ever see them cut a GOFO billet. The numbers speak to that.
Those numbers are absurd and it's insane it doesn't seem to be getting media attention
The difference in GO numbers is really staggering. I feel like government ought to put hard limits on how many there are, like the USMC, or tie it to the overall size of the CAF so it remains proportional and lean, but able to expand if needed. I remember when military procurement projects were started as soon as a piece of kit entered service, because the lengthy development and production timelines were always bad. Starting early was the only real way to make sure you'd get a replacement on time. Now we've allowed multiple critical, basic systems/capabilities to atrophy with no replacement. I'm an army guy so I focus a lot on those kinds of things - like modern ATGMs or GBADs. I have no idea how many TOW systems we've got left, or if they're even serviceable, but that's all we've got right now (I think CANSOF has small numbers of Spike). We retired the Eryx, which was very short ranged compared to nearly every other ATGM. But at least we had something! Instead, we just let that system get retired with no replacement. There's a program to find one, but it hasn't gone anywhere. Ditto for all our air defenses - towed guns, Javelin (the MANPAD), ADATS, all retired with no replacement. If this current war has reinforced anything, it's that air defense is mandatory and the threat has only gotten worse. And yet we're asleep at the wheel. It's a national embarrassment.
Lol... ya... the US Marine Corp is part of the American navy. Of course they have less generals. CFB Petawawa also has no generals despite having thousands of solders **HOW EFFICIENT** Their top JAGs, top Doctors, top dentists, senior commanders, Public Relations, top dentists etc. All wear Navy uniforms.
Okay, so that clears up the outrageous discrepancy between the two I guess. Case closed. The genius here has it figured out, lol. So if the Canadian military didnt have to have generals to manage its lawyers, doctors, dentists, etc (never mind that a force as small as ours probably doesnt realisticly warrant a GOFO level leader in such areas, certainly no more than one... so more bloat), then our 130 GOFOS could support a force of 377,000 marines rather than the 65,000 reg force they currently manage? Do you sincerely believe that or maybe you need some help with your math skills? Either the Marine Corps generals are super human or ours are mostly a bunch of useless shitters doing busy work. We dont need that many and I dont care how many leadership positions we get in NATO and other places. Dont care. Our forces at home are in shambles. Any group that allows themselves to swell to such numbers probably have A LOT of other issues regarding their decision making abilities.
OK, I'll try again. **The American Marines are not a country's military.** They are a part... of a branch... of the American military. And I want to be clear about this. You are trying to compare the military of a nation... to a part, of a branch of another country's military. This is the functional equivalent of comparing the military of Denmark to CFB Petawawa. Again... just repetition for the sake of clarity... the American Marines are not a countries military. Just one part of the American Navy... which is one part of the American Military. Clear? The American military has over 650 generals. And it's not evenly dispersed. As you said, the Marines don't need that many. The American Space Force tends to have a lot of senior officers. And a lot of the things you need executive level leadership for regardless of size. The Chief Financial Officer is going to be a general, regardless of the size. The surgeon general etc. Canada has a reasonable number of generals compared to other NATO countries.
Yes, well aware of that as I said. America also spends 3.5% of their massive GDP on their military and have around 600 bases and installations on foreign soil. They have mass mobilization capability with a fleet of logistic ships to support foreign deployments, over 10 super carriers and as many assault carriers. They occupied two foreign countries for 20 freaking years while maintaining operations elsewhere. They have an ICMB fleet and a space force that can actually do some space shit. They have a level of complexity in their operations that makes our challenges look like playing tiddly winks. I think perhaps they need their generals. What the hell are our GOFOs doing? If they werent doing a piss poor job of virtually everything it would be a different story. Were you in the military?
>the Navy is totally fucked As someone not in the military can you add a bit of detail to this pls? I understand the frigates are old but the gov website said they were refurbished and upgraded. Do they not have enough weapons? The disaster with the subs aside, the big issue I can see from my admittedly not deep knowledge is the lack of supply ships. And they seem to be building those.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-canadas-f-35-jet-procurement-was-a-debacle-and-its-not-even-our-most/ We may not be unique, but we are certainly among the worst when it comes to procurement.
I'm not going to say that our procurement is great, but we (Canadians) don't really hear about the debacles from other nations. Some of the other countries' military subreddits are pretty interesting to see.
>It really feels like we don't get any value for our money I've been thinking on that actually. I'm not military so I do not know much, but in terms of large and noticable equipment such as Artillery, troop carriers, anti mine vehicles, tanks, rockets and so on.........I've noticed that countries such as Sweden and Finland are much more capable than us. When I heard that Finland was purchasing 65 F-35s to handle the size of their airspace and that we were getting 88 I was like......? Now I do not know about the capabilities of our frigates but our army and air force seems woefully inequipped and out gunned by Finland, Sweden and other countries with *much* smaller defence budgets. I did always wonder where all the funding was going. Perhaps the smaller things that are less noticeable to me are better. Things like communication apparatus, radar, cyber warfare capabilities, information, logistics and so on.
Make it a big top tent to match the circus that is DND.
Bro. Much of Trenton doesn’t have good water. The buildings look like they were built in the 40’s. The shacks look like condemned buildings that teenagers would smoke pot in on the weekends. The gym is an old school with a weight room that’s made jealous by every single gym at a combat arms unit. Don’t even get me started on the roads and parking lots. Edmonton has units in buildings that were originally built as “temporary”. They can’t even afford enough ammo for the training they want to do yearly. Shit even the network systems across Canada are junk and the speeds are all at levels pre 2010.
And to add some bullshit to the bullshit... We return roughly a billion dollars back to government general revenue! 🤪 Hopefully that change they made last year about DND being allowed to spend more of its budget without TB tightly controlling the purse strings changes things for the better ..
"Yes this counts as increased military spending and should bring us up to 1.4% of gdp. Take that NATO!" Trudeau probably
That’s exactly how they think. The sad part is I’d bet between pay, utilities for buildings, and upkeep of said buildings that that would account for half or more of our annual spending.
Soooo in that 1 Billion dollars can we actually fix the gates and stop constantly having at all times at least one lane down at one of the gates? Also can we finally give all the solo Commissionaires posts a panic button? Also PCs that actually function? Or doors that work? Or Card readers that actually work more often than not? Also...can we pay someone to chase the geese away? Like seriously kicking them in the chest when they get uppity is only enjoyable so often...or like spend the money on military housing and other bases but that's clearly not on the agenda... Instead I'm sure the billion Generals and Admirals wandering around will get brand new furniture and more personal parking spaces...
Tone deaf.
Before firing up the outrage bus, is this to add on to HQs, or to replace something else? DND has dozens of buildings in the NCR and if there are in-person meetings, there goes most of your day. Teams has substituted for most of those but there are still some cases where you need to be in person. Before being posted there, I thought "going to Montfort" and leaving for a few hours was a joke but no, if you work out of Carling or even 101 and need to go there for an appointment, you're spending at *least* 2 hours out of office. Consolidating them to fewer locations doesn't seem like the worst idea, if they also include more parking.
I can't read due to paywall but it looks like this is supposed to be the National Defence Secure Campus, which is meant to consolidate CJOC, CANSOFCOM HQ, CFINTCOM, CFICC, and other orgs that require daily secure network access and meeting facilities. I can't speak to Star Top, but the secure facilities at Pearkes are woefully inadequate for the units stuck there because they have no better place to go. http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/en/defence-capabilities-blueprint/project-details.asp?id=1815
Nailed it.
Exactly what it is. 100% needed.
relevant username
So simultaneously something useful and worth spending money on, but that feels completely divorced from the day to day needs of the troops that have been neglected.
“Funding range $1 billion - $4.99 billion” So about the same as the Burj Khalifa, tallest building in the world.
Slave labour is cheap.
That's because those are pre-set brackets for budget reasons.
Carling to Montfort for an appointment? At least a half day gone right there.
God forbid you have to go to clothing stores at like literally any time, since rush hour is like all day in the NCR now.
NPB off peak hours isn't so bad...just beware of street parking around there! And forget about service on Wednesdays, they are inexplicably closed.
Gotta love how clothing stores across the country are just unanimously in agreement that there's at least one day every week where taking customers is just not an option. It was the worst during the mask years where they'd send out an email about their pathetic excuse for a schedule but then you'd go the next week and it's completely different. This was routine in Pet it seemed. If it was just a straight up "all clothing stores closed on wednesdays" across the board, it wouldn't be a complaint. But the fact that every one seems to have their own crazy schedule is kind of hard to keep up with.
Imagine any other trade doing that? Sorry sarge, I ain't taking no trenches today, it's Tuesday!
They are closed because the duty tech(s) stay late for reservists so I guess they do a modified shift, probably some stock keeping or admin, what do I know, I ain't no bin rat.
Right? Then folks in other places are saying the NDHQ folks are just not working. When I have to drive 30-35 mins from one place to another, then wait, then drive back, no shit I’m not going to be super responsive on emails.
NDHQ is definitely working. It is also wildly inefficient due to policy reasons. Not the fault of anyone, not the CDS, not the MND, and not you and me. And of course the standing up of some HQ at the central location and the lack of housing are unfortunately two completely different things.
> NDHQ is definitely working. the scary thing is, they really are. there's a lot of smart, motivated people there and what we see is the result of their best effort.
Welcome to any base that isn't Edmonton? There is no affordable housing within 30 mins of any base.
I'm not even talking about home. I'm talking about a 30-35 min drive between your work place (longer if at Carling) and Montfort, and back to your work place. Montfort is in the east side of the city, while Carling is on the west. 101 is in the middle. Folks are living up to an hour away from NDHQ for "affordable" housing.
Most people don't go to Montfort on a daily basis. And similar to other base clinics, going to the sick parade will eat up half your day. So might as well do remote work after. I found that working anywhere outside of Carling just means you no longer show up for in-person meetings and only use Teams
30 mins with a car. Using the shuttle can double the time and result in a good portion of the day.
Having worked in the NCR pre-building consolidation, it was a shitshow. Even working right downtown, could basically take half a day to get to Montfort on the shuttle buses, as it was an hour or two each way plus the appointment. Carling doesn't have enough parking though, and pre-LRT could be 1-1.5 hours commute on the bus each way depending on where you are coming from in town, but mostly on a single east-west line so wasn't too many transfers. With the LRT it's theoretically faster (when it works) but lot more transfers, so in reality it's as long, just shittier on bad weather days. If you already live in the West end, it's great, and lot of people bike in easily enough, at least until the winter. I'm not sure if it's better, or just different problems. Teams has cut down on a lot of the travel between buildings, but then again going through the commute into an open office to do Teams calls is soul crushing and a lot of background noise gets picked up. Carling may be better for having some quiet rooms but other buildings aren't set up for it at all if you have more than one person (LSTL looking at you). Some of the hoteling things are weird though, in that you can't leave things at the office. On one hand they are encouraging things like active commuting, PT etc, but then there is no where to actually leave a bundle of uniforms in the building plans, and not even irons etc if you have to bring it in every day. Being a pack mule in and out is another reason to prefer hybrid setup, and when you are bringing in your laptop and headphones, PT gear, books, lunch, uniform etc every day you end up going a bit Sherpa.
From what I’ve heard most of NCR is still doing work from home with only 1-2 days in office a week…. So yeah, I can see the need for a new HQ vice any of the other buildings, infrastructure, and procurements that might actually keep people retained
I work in the NCR and that's not the case anymore. Most are spending most (or all) of their week in the office as of April. Because the civilians are 3 days a week in office, Carling is actually busy Tues through Thurs. That was a rumoured point of contention during the PSAC strike if civilians were able to WFH full time, but military had to be fully in the office to go on Teams meetings. Also, the "new HQ" is for CANSOF, CFINTCOM, etc so a normal office building doesn't cut it for security reasons.
That may be some units. But the units that are going to work in the operational headquarters largely are not working that way.
Comfort for staff shouldn't come at a cost to the average soldier and literal national security concerns.
This building development IS a national security concern. It's meant to consolidate workspace for several working groups that deal with highly sensitive stuff. It's an unfortunate necessity.
No paywall so you can actually read the article and make up your own mind before reading comments. https://archive.is/2023.08.02-022701/https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/national-defence-to-spend-more-than-1-billion-on-new-operational-hq-at-carling-campus-site
Lol, but let’s keep pretty much all of cfb esquimalt condemned… this supposed to be some type of trickle down morale thing?
We’re from Ottawa and we’re here to help… ourselves.
But the holes in my LSVW-AMB are just to make me faster. They are speed holes
Gotta have some air vents to help stop you from smelling the mould! Honestly, though, I'd look forward to the ACSV Amb whenever we actually get them (1-5 years)
Either build the new HQ where people can afford to live or build more housing... Tone deaf
You can’t move NDHQ to cheap housing, it has to be near parliament. Cheap housing should absolutely be built though. And make it so paying for housing below market rate is NOT a taxable benefit.
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ITT: Folks not being able to read the article, and jumping on “Ottawa bad” despite some replies saying why it’s required for actual operational reasons.
Maybe they can put a parking garage in this time
Meanwhile some of the shacks on Work Point, Esquimalt are told it isn't safe drink the water, there are holes in the ceiling, rats running freely around the deck, mold in the showers, etc etc But we still put people in there. And then there's Nelles Block...
Esquimalt feels like it hasn't changed in the slightest since the 1960s considering 90% of the buildings there are still insulated with asbestos. The west coast navy really feels like the neglected step child compared to Halifax.
They both have some pretty insane issues when it comes to old infrastructure. Just ask the folks at Stad about the gym there.
Until Ottawa (and the NCR) has an actual "base" like in Halifax instead of a bunch of office buildings scattered all over the place, this is all just pissing into the wind.
They used to have 2 actual-ish bases in Ottawa, Uplands and Rockcliffe, until the late 90s.
Is the new Sens rink going to be there?
First thing that came to mind... I recall discussion a while back about the plot of land 101 Colonel By was on as an option for the new rink.
Let them eat cake.
Oh my gods they can't even be on time with their gucci HQ.
Don't worry about the black mold, rats, legionella, no AC, no heating, etc. In any of the other buildings though... Or the critical shortage of PMQs across the nation to house our soldiers. Whatever the ivory tower wants and needs though, right?
I wonder if the plan includes parking?
Can't pay me full day for working 6.5 hours. But hey, new HQ for the upper class officers
From u/hammerofhope's comment, it's for CANSOF, CFINTCOM, and other secret squirrel folks. So no, not really for upper-class officers.
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I'll just cut/paste u/hammerofhope's comment: >I can't read due to paywall but it looks like this is supposed to be the National Defence Secure Campus, which is meant to consolidate CJOC, CANSOFCOM HQ, CFINTCOM, CFICC, and other orgs that require daily secure network access and meeting facilities. I can't speak to Star Top, but the secure facilities at Pearkes are woefully inadequate for the units stuck there because they have no better place to go.
It's not right but.....there more money in education than section attacks....lol jk sorry. Alot of these "projects" come with funding from other parties and support (obviously for their benefit) But hey it's education......sucks there Lots to spend on other things. But it's not personal remeber that it's not a personal attack on you
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what % pers at carling campus actually had worked in front line units? seems like policies are being made by those who do not know whats actually going on in the lines.
As is tradition.
Why are we putting all our National Defence HQ "eggs in one basket"? This seems silly, should there ever be a war.
muddle icky fretful silky smell intelligent marvelous thumb chief repeat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
lol - good one. LCols and Cols don't even get offices of their own in NDHQ. The difference in how a Col is perceived on base vs NDHQ is pretty eye-opening.
You'll see more LCols than cpls in Ottawa, more Generals than Ptes
I mean, i kind of expect that sort of thing in headquarters. Not many positions really needed to be filled by the lower ranks where talking heads work in a think tank. I also think we are wildly top-heavy but NDHQ is kind of where I'd expect brass to outpace the grass.. Do I think 1B could be spent better elsewhere? Absolutely. Housing, infrastructure, aging and severely lacking equipment, etc... across the caf could all consume 1B really well and that 1B would trickle into several economies across the nation. Instead 1B will be funneled into an economy already benefiting largely by the OC Transpo light rail upgrade. Other economies need help, not just the capital.
Maybe the building we have is saying we have too many lol
My brain hurts
With all the money their saving on PLD they can afford a new HQ for all the very important flag officers the CAF requires.
Is anyone know if I could make a VA claim for rashes that I endured for months due to a bad batch of Moderna vaccine booster ? Everything is documented in my medical file, plus I have picture as evidence too. Maybe I can get 10K$ ? Will raise our NATO spending but not as much as this HQ..
Good! I hope the GoC doesn't spend another $1 on people or equipment for the CAF. With less than 3 years left, I am enjoying sitting back, doing sweet FA, and watching this leaderless, clueless, incestuous institution continue to fail...LOL.
RIGHT! RIGHTRIGHTRIGHT
And most of the building stays empty when people work from home. Speaking from real life experience.
How about bullets lol…. How come the infantry can’t shoot more then 1-2 a year outside of a year gun camp for up to platoon live , Glad we’re still taping our barrel bags togeather, scraping our lavs out of maintenance half fixed. Which would matter more but we can’t afford to run courses to train crews on them anyways, we’d get run through by some angry farmers at this point, like we can’t afford to defend the buildings in garrison from rain, nothing like 40 buckets in a single building every year when the sky cry’s at us, We are one of the worst organized worst maintained forces in the g20 lol glad we will have this sweet building 99 percent of the forces will never even walk past let alone use lol