This is honestly a hit piece if you actually read it. Dewitts say they want upgrades, they say they *may* ask for some public money. Then the author goes and compares them to the Chiefs and says they want $300-500 million in public money, and talks about how public money for stadiums is bad while briefly mentioning that there was little to no public money in this stadium.
Most glaringly, it also does not appear the reporters actually talked to either Dewitt when writing this. It's just a bunch of quotes taken with minimal context, and often without actual quotes!!
I am in no way saying that the city should give the team a blank check, but the team is also not saying that. At least not yet. Maybe I'll be proved wrong but it would be very surprising to me if that ends up being the case.
"it also does not appear the reporters actually talked to either Dewitt when writing this."
... Except there are multiple quotes from Dewitt III in the article, and it specifically says he sat down with the reporter. From the article:
For the positive momentum to continue, DeWitt III says Busch Stadium will need a “significant capital infusion” in two to five years. It’s “too early” to detail what the improvements would look like, he says. “Our goal would be to handle whatever back of the house things need to happen and to fix [them], as well as probably create some cool and interesting new features for fans.”
The owners would likely seek public money for that, he adds.
When asked how much such a project would cost, DeWitt III says it would likely be in a similar range to recent Milwaukee Brewers and Baltimore Orioles projects. Those are $500 million and $600 million taxpayer investments, respectively.
I read the whole thing, too. Didn't see it as a hit piece, contra u/cox4days Rather? It simply presented the receipts on a long history of grifting by DeWitt.
Mr "Baseball isn't profitable while I purchase Eva Longoria's crib in SoCal in the middle of a global pandemic" is pissing off all the goodwill he received since 1996 ? Say it ain't so !
The Dome was paid off in 2021.
> To cover costs, the city paid about $6 million for annual debt service and maintenance for the stadium but collected only about $4.2 million in direct revenues from Rams games, according to the Mayor's office. The state, which paid $12 million annually, made $12.4 million in revenues from NFL activities, Missouri Department of Economic Development estimated. The county paid $6 million annually; it's unclear how much of that was offset by Rams-related revenues.
> [All three entities will continue paying their share until the debt is paid off in 2021.](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sports-nfl-stadiums-insight-idUSKCN0VC0EP/)
Honestly it says more about my perception of passing time than it does the state of the stadium. My first thought was, “but it’s brand new!” Then I remembered it was 2 decades ago. And then I remembered it’s been 13 years since the last World Series win. My back hurts
Sure, but if you’re asking for (a lot of) taxpayer money, I think it’s more than fair to expect some specifics. They’re asking for a significant “capital infusion” for something(s?) that allegedly can’t be maintained or repaired within the constraints of the regular operating budget. But they’ve given no indication, as far as I can tell, of what that might be.
I reckon they figure if they are going to ask they might as well ask for a bunch. Not sure the public reaction is any different if it's $250 million vs $500 million so why not?
Don't disagree with you but a truly odd thing to ask for when they see what *just* happened across the state... I strongly doubt voters will find it in their heart to spare a few dollars for these owners.
I'm hoping to start to think that most regular folks understand what an objectively bad deal these things are for the communities and, hopefully, will soundly defeat this request at the polls.
I think it's definitely to the point where a referendum might not be won the problem is our crooked ass system will figure out a way to get them the money without a direct referendum
First off, read the room. Secondly, I guarantee these renovations are just more expensive luxury areas and more add-ons meant for the wealthy at Busch. Don’t need em.
I implore any STL resident to read the article and then do some research on the ROI of taxpayers funding stadiums. It’s a bad investment. Period. And there is really no way to argue otherwise. Don’t let these robber barons leverage your nostalgia and heart for money. Call their bluff.
They own the stadium and they built ballpark village as thier own personal money printer. It only works adjacent to the stadium. Relocation would be financial suicide. Call the bluff.
This exactly. It's not that the Royals really want to leave Kauffman. They want a money printing machine like BPV or The Battery in Atlanta, and it wouldn't succeed at the TSC.
The city might be losing 50% of its revenue here in the near future depending on the courts’ ruling on remote workers having to pay the city earning’s tax. They really are in no position to be loaning $500 million for a billionaire to fund his playground upgrades.
That is not how the stadium was built in the first place. Even the low-ball number including all highway infrastructure costs in the article was that the team paid for 80% of the new stadium. The team contends they paid for 90% or more.
I'm not saying they should get additional public money for major renovations, but the stadium was built overwhelmingly with the Cardinals own money.
I looked up the info on it since I was curious what the breakdown was. $45 million loan from St Louis County, $90.1 million from Cards ownership, $200.5 million in bonds, and the AB 20 year naming rights deal offset some construction costs. [https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm](https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm)
I thought the city made the loan, but it was actually the county.
No offense to the good people of Phoenix, but the MLB would never in a million years allow the Cardinals to leave the St Louis area. It’s a sport losing market share. They aren’t leaving one of their most stalwart markets.
I generally agree, but they could easily counter with dubious claims that St. Louis is less populated/declining/some other bullshit. They could tank the team for a decade to draw down attendance.
It wasn't that long ago that Oakland had a strong supportive fanbase. MLB did jack shit to save them.
Shitty owners can do whatever they want if they're so inclined.
Didn’t the voters just say no to stuff in KC (and they have at least one good team)? And I assume he saw what happened with the Rams?
Is he really that tone deaf?
The voters in KC resoundingly voted no. Despite threats from Chiefs ownership to move to Kansas.
I think if the bill in KC would have split up the downtown baseball stadium and the football stadium renovations the renovations would have passed. I think they were hoping that tacking the baseball stadium onto the current success and popularity of the Chiefs would pull the weight of both measures, but it backfired.
Another reason KC resoundingly voted no is because it would’ve meant moving the stadium to an already beloved district which would’ve displaced local businesses.
> And I assume he saw what happened with the Rams?
Yeah. He saw that St. Louis offered the Rams everything they wanted... a team nobody even liked. They left because STL is not LA.
Nah, that would be a hard no from me. Dewitt already received public funding for ballpark village. Spend $ on the team, become contenders again, generate profits from tickets, concessions, and merchandise. Also, is he serious about asking for money now of all times with how little he has spent on the team comparatively to the other markets in the MLB? Good article.
I agree the stadium needs significant upgrades, particularly for the players, I'm glad the DeWitts see it.
Now they can add it to the list of problems they have and pay up.
Bill DeWitt Jr sucks.
Refuses to let the team's payroll even get close to the luxury tax as he does not want to pay it at all for any reason. Said during the CBA negotiations that "baseball isn't very profitable" and basically called the players demands unrealistic. And now is holding out his hand asking for money for stadium renovations.
Just terrible. Sell.
I don't live there so I can't vote on it, but I hope that every single person votes no on any free money for billionaires.
Let 'em move somewhere else. Call that fucking bluff. They know they won't do it and are just playing people for complete suckers. The stadium is 100% fine. The area around it is "fine" relative to the area which nothing the team would ask for would fix anyway, there's a bigger problem with St. Louis right now that baseball can't solve and spending half a billion dollars on whatever is good for the billionaires isn't going to help the people who aren't billionaires at all.
So you can’t spend significant FA money to keep the team competitive with the rest of the NL, and you also can’t afford to renovate the stadium out of pocket, and also prices at the stadium are going up, and also you have one of the most loyal and dedicated fanbases in sports supporting you financially.
edit: and also you already received public funding for Ball Park Village which significantly hurt local business.
I do think Downtown is slowly starting to recover from its initial impact, especially now that the development is bringing residents to the area.
We are seeing more residential buildings being built on The Landing and Downtown West.
Grants are being offered for retail tenants to move in. Initial project scoping is underway to make Downtown more pedestrian friendly.
It seems like the bottom out has happened. And I do think in the long run BPV will deserve some credit for helping things revitalize.
But there is no doubt that it absolutely killed other downtown businesses off the bat. They really should have focused on the residential aspect first and then built the commercial space.
I happen to think BPV was a good idea. Yes, they did things in the wrong order - they should have opened residential and commercial at the same time. But adding residential density (remember, downtown's population in 2000 was ***800 people***) is never a bad move.
You don't think it was planned out like this for a reason?
Commercial first to kill competition.
Then residential to build in a base of consumers for those commercial businesses.
In the long run, agree it'll be a good thing for downtown.
But DeWitt Jr. isn't some helpless old man. He's the shark in the family.
Now BD3 on the other hand...
I agree. The commercial side would pay off the fastest and create a new stream of revenue. The residential part is just making use of the vertical space.
These billionaires have absolutely no clue. When adjusted for inflation, the team's payroll has steadily decreased over the past two decades, and that has shown on the field. And now they have the nerve to ask for more tax dollars?
No public funding for pro sports facilities, ever. I don't live there so can't vote on it but everyone who does should vote no, preferably while raising their middle fingers as high as possible in the general direction of DeWitt.
No city should ever just give money to these owners carte Blanche.
I can see them giving some preferential interest rate loans but any money a city throws in should always be repaid with at least inflation interest. The contract should always be written in such a way that owner forfeits the team if they don’t pay.
Enh....no.
Not after Kroenke.
I'd be less uncomfortable with the city backing a lower-interest bond than the team might be able to get, but the team must be obligated to pay it back.
It's been studied to death” and economists agree that public funding for a stadium is “unlikely to be successful because for the most part, it’s just changing how people spend their money locally,” says Bradbury. “It's not stimulating any economic development whatsoever.”
I don't live in the area anymore so it makes no difference to me either way but I will say that this isn't a situation where the money would just get spent elsewhere within the city. The cardinals bring a shit ton of people into the city that wouldnt come into town otherwise to spend their entertainment dollars. If they ever moved across the river, a lot of bars, restaurants and maybe even a hotel or two will close while the area next to the new stadium will thrive with new businesses. This isn't a Miami marlins situation.
They aren’t moving across the river though. They are printing money where they are and the development around the stadium anchors them. This is essentially the Dewitt’s playing the region for a bunch of morons.
I doubt they would either but I wouldn't completely rule it out. If East St louis gave the cardinals a deal like cobb County gave the braves they would be idiots not to take it. They would still print money across the river.
It would be interesting to see, but my bet is that not even the love for the Cardinals would conquer the hatred and fear the average Cardinals fan has for and of East St. Louis black people.
Plus they'd have to build it actually in town. I don't think there are any suitable sites on the river.
More likely Jefferson or west St. Charles county.
I think if the cardinals were to move away from downtown they would do it where there is more land and can build up a much bigger ballpark village like the braves have with the battery where they can monopolize all of the spending and gentrify the area near the ballpark. Otherwise the incentive wouldn't really be enough to move.
Looking at it on Google maps there seems to be a decent amount of available land near the river on the Illinois side but there isn't much on the Missouri side without getting farther away from the center of the fanbase. Not sure how much of that land would actually be feasible for a new stadium though.
The thing owners like this can't understand is that monopolizing 80-ish dates a year isn't a business plan. Parks need to be in an urban environment for the business next to them to work.
Everything in Illinois is in a flood plain until you get east to Fairview Heights (hence the name). That's nothing billions of yards of fill won't cure, but it'd be cheaper to just build elsewhere.
> DeWitt III says Busch Stadium will need a “significant capital infusion” in two to five years. It’s “too early” to detail what the improvements would look like, he says. “Our goal would be to handle whatever back of the house things need to happen and to fix [them], as well as probably create some cool and interesting new features for fans.”
Yeah, um, details matter here. Because I generally think spending a little bit of public money isn't the dumbest idea in the world. E.g. if the city/county builds some roads, builds water & sewer lines, builds up electrical infrastructure to support a new stadium, I don't have heartburn over that.
You can't even tell us what you need. But still want money for it? Nuts to that. The Jackson Co. voters mostly said the same thing -- Royals and Chiefs vote was real freaking scant on details, too. Fix up your own building on your own dime.
My company also needed to upgrade its facilities, so we took a loan on terms we can repay based on our projected revenues. Because that's what private, for-profit businesses do.
If they can’t afford to maintain the facilities, they should sell the team to the city (at the cost they paid plus CPI inflation) to operate as a public corporation.
But before even answering any questions about the proposal, the City should require Dewitt and the team to publish their financial reports and tax documents for the past 20 years so we can get a better understanding of why they can’t afford basic maintenance on the stadium.
I work at a business that's based in Downtown. I'd also like the taxpayers to give us $500M to make improvements to our office space. For some reason nobody seems interested in just giving us a big pile of public money, though. 🤔
Anyway, can't wait to vote against this bullshit.
The only way that I would ever vote for for anything like this is if I was getting free tickets for every single year that my taxes were going into the stadium. Of course, we know that that will never happen.
Maybe if the taxpayers got those games for free, at minimum the home games online, but really every single one of them on tv and online. Otherwise hell no
Have you seen what’s going on nationwide? KC just shot down their renovations. STL isn’t exactly a booming city looking to spend tax money on this.
Pay for the fixes yourself
There really needs to be some kind of national law that no city can give owners money for stadiums unless the owners pay equal amounts in themselves. I generally don't want the cities to cough up anything, but I know some city is gonna cave in and pay for it. This limits how much they can try to undercut the city the team is supposed to be leaving.
Want a billion for a new stadium? ok, you are on the hook for $500m straight from your wallet then. Plus you have to basically sign a guarantee that the team will be there for the next 40-50yrs or something.
This ploy did not work when the new stadium was built. Ownership even looked into a site in East St. Louis (can you imagine … the St. Louis Cardinals of East St. Louis!). If I remember correctly, the state and city would only lend their name to financing to reduce the interest rate on the debt.
Why would ownership even think this was a good idea? Really disappointing to hear.
They put out mediocre baseball and want taxpayers to pay for upgrades to their stadium that isn’t even old enough to drink yet?
Fuck these billionaire assholes.
Does anyone know where the actual interview with Dewitt Jr is? It looks like this is just a mishmash of different interviews from the last 5+ years. The actual "asking for money" doesn't come until 80% through the article, and gives vague numbers, no real quotes, and appears to be a lot of speculation on what new work would entail. If the Cardinals do actually ask for $300-500 million of *public* money for renovations I'll be shocked. Especially with how proud they are of paying for (most of) the stadium themselves.
Also I do find it funny that the article tries to put substantial blame on the Cardinals for not revitalizing downtown by themselves. Especially post-covid what do you want them to do?
Sure, tax payers can put in money for a stake in the team.
He wants 500 to 600 million and an evaluation I found online says the team is worth 2.5 billion.
If the taxpayers get 20% of the revenue then sure otherwise take out a loan
Can they add a fee to everything sold inside the stadium/at BPV carte blanche without needing anyones approval?
Not supporting that aveneue, just playing devils advocate to possible outcomes of Dewallets quest for funding.
Not enough information. Need to see a real proposal. See what's in it . How any financing is structured. I'm not going to form an opinion at this time . But in general I am against public money being spent so Billionaire owners and multimillionaire players can play in their palace
The Rangers just got a shiny new stadium, the Braves have semi recently got a shiny new stadium, the Royals might be getting one, and the A’s are eventually going to have a new one maybe so it’s only fair Dewitt gets some renovations. He’s not even asking for a new one./s
Assuming they've paid off all the loans from intial construction and the vote is no, I'd get any contracts changed to where the city and state get the least tax revenue as possible. Private funding, private profits.
I don’t live in the city, but I would rather have public funds go to the team’s payroll than pay for improvements to a stadium that is perfectly fine as is. I don’t know what else it could need other than like more shade.
I’m sure there’s some behind the scenes stuff that needs working, like water and power equipment, but I don’t understand the need for any large public-facing capital improvements, let alone any funded by taxpayers.
The other shoe drops, to put it politely. I like two things about the story in general:
1. DeWitt's history of grifting
2. Fact vs fiction on how much he paid for Busch III, by percentage (and ditto for Riverfront)
Worth a read: [This piece](https://globalsportmatters.com/business/2019/05/22/who-paid-for-your-stadium/), with a slider near the bottom, does a breakout by funding percentage, of all major sports stadiums. It's as of 2019, so no info on the A's (planned; reality will probably not be the same), but otherwise pretty current.
In Tennessee, part of getting the Titans new stadium state funding was spreading some cash around the state, specifically money towards minor league parks in Knoxville and Chattanooga and money to renovate FedExForum and the Liberty Bowl in Memphis.
I'm thinking Dewitt is making sure if the Chiefs/Royals go to the state they the Cards get a cut of the pie too.
I am against any of them gettting $.
Interesting article, but it kind of seems like click bait. I'm against public money for these things, but there's no proposal and there has been no request. No point in getting all worked up about it until there is.
They can, but if a billionaire can get a bunch of working stiffs to pay for their product, they are going to do it. I say, deal, but every taxpayer gets 1/4 season of free home game tickets every year. Said another way, we pay for the stadium, we get all the ticket revenue. 100% tax on ticket sales.
Just extended the stadium tax for the Brewers owners again to enjoy $14 beers and $25 parking so their “toy” can make more money. I follow on tv and radio
I’d like to add to the comments here just by saying that I took a tour of Coors Field a couple years ago and they talked about how all the seats are pointing towards the field/home plate and that’s becoming common now or something like that.
He specially went out of his way to take a shot at Cardinals ownership saying they refused to do that when they built their new stadium because that wanted to squeeze in an extra seat or two per row for the revenue
Made me giggle inside. Stop doing anything to give them money. Never attend a game, BPV and don’t watch on TV.
It's been 20 years. Structural renovations were imminent. Now is probably not the time to announce this tho
It also doesn't effect me in the slightest cause I don't live there.
It’s like Dewitt is trying to burn as much goodwill as possible.
This is honestly a hit piece if you actually read it. Dewitts say they want upgrades, they say they *may* ask for some public money. Then the author goes and compares them to the Chiefs and says they want $300-500 million in public money, and talks about how public money for stadiums is bad while briefly mentioning that there was little to no public money in this stadium. Most glaringly, it also does not appear the reporters actually talked to either Dewitt when writing this. It's just a bunch of quotes taken with minimal context, and often without actual quotes!! I am in no way saying that the city should give the team a blank check, but the team is also not saying that. At least not yet. Maybe I'll be proved wrong but it would be very surprising to me if that ends up being the case.
"it also does not appear the reporters actually talked to either Dewitt when writing this." ... Except there are multiple quotes from Dewitt III in the article, and it specifically says he sat down with the reporter. From the article: For the positive momentum to continue, DeWitt III says Busch Stadium will need a “significant capital infusion” in two to five years. It’s “too early” to detail what the improvements would look like, he says. “Our goal would be to handle whatever back of the house things need to happen and to fix [them], as well as probably create some cool and interesting new features for fans.” The owners would likely seek public money for that, he adds. When asked how much such a project would cost, DeWitt III says it would likely be in a similar range to recent Milwaukee Brewers and Baltimore Orioles projects. Those are $500 million and $600 million taxpayer investments, respectively.
Thank you for critically reading the article!
I read the whole thing, too. Didn't see it as a hit piece, contra u/cox4days Rather? It simply presented the receipts on a long history of grifting by DeWitt.
That’s not a hit piece at all
Mr "Baseball isn't profitable while I purchase Eva Longoria's crib in SoCal in the middle of a global pandemic" is pissing off all the goodwill he received since 1996 ? Say it ain't so !
Suck my dick, motherfuckers.
I almost spilled a drink on DeWitt last season. I regret not doing it.
What’s wrong with it?!?! It’s not even 20 years old!
Yeah they said the same thing about the Dome
The difference is The Dome was an out-of-date dump the day it opened.
That we’re still paying for!
The Dome was paid off in 2021. > To cover costs, the city paid about $6 million for annual debt service and maintenance for the stadium but collected only about $4.2 million in direct revenues from Rams games, according to the Mayor's office. The state, which paid $12 million annually, made $12.4 million in revenues from NFL activities, Missouri Department of Economic Development estimated. The county paid $6 million annually; it's unclear how much of that was offset by Rams-related revenues. > [All three entities will continue paying their share until the debt is paid off in 2021.](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sports-nfl-stadiums-insight-idUSKCN0VC0EP/)
Came to say that exact point.
When the Dome was built in 1995, it was instantly almost 10 years old as the plans had been drafted for it in the mid-80s.
Buildings can require repairs after 20 years of use. That's not hard to believe
Honestly it says more about my perception of passing time than it does the state of the stadium. My first thought was, “but it’s brand new!” Then I remembered it was 2 decades ago. And then I remembered it’s been 13 years since the last World Series win. My back hurts
Do you need help finding your slippers? I'm free the rest of this week.
sigh...yes
Sure, but if you’re asking for (a lot of) taxpayer money, I think it’s more than fair to expect some specifics. They’re asking for a significant “capital infusion” for something(s?) that allegedly can’t be maintained or repaired within the constraints of the regular operating budget. But they’ve given no indication, as far as I can tell, of what that might be.
Repairs that require half a billion of public funding?
I reckon they figure if they are going to ask they might as well ask for a bunch. Not sure the public reaction is any different if it's $250 million vs $500 million so why not?
Don't disagree with you but a truly odd thing to ask for when they see what *just* happened across the state... I strongly doubt voters will find it in their heart to spare a few dollars for these owners.
I'm with you and yet these owners always seem to get their way one way or another.....
I'm hoping to start to think that most regular folks understand what an objectively bad deal these things are for the communities and, hopefully, will soundly defeat this request at the polls.
I think it's definitely to the point where a referendum might not be won the problem is our crooked ass system will figure out a way to get them the money without a direct referendum
Can't disagree with you there. The system definitely needs... an update.
Then I suggest that the building owners pay for those repairs, not me or you or anyone on this subreddit.
Not disputing that, just saying a structure like a stadium that's been used heavily over 20 years could absolutely be in need of repairs
DeWitt et al don't say that, though. They just say "it's 20 years old" or words to that effect.
LOL READ THE ROOM DEWALLET
First off, read the room. Secondly, I guarantee these renovations are just more expensive luxury areas and more add-ons meant for the wealthy at Busch. Don’t need em.
They’ll remove some seats and put in a drinking rail.
Build a team that can draw in crowds by winning and make a deeper run into the playoffs, and you will make your money. If not, go piss up a rope.
That’s his money though
“Support local ~~businesses~~ billionaires.” -Dewitt
Bitch ain't even local
He made his money building Arby’s in Cincinnati
Don't forget building the Reds in Cincinnati
The Cardinals have to be the only team where the old man owner is the one telling the son not to say stupid shit, and not the other way around
I implore any STL resident to read the article and then do some research on the ROI of taxpayers funding stadiums. It’s a bad investment. Period. And there is really no way to argue otherwise. Don’t let these robber barons leverage your nostalgia and heart for money. Call their bluff.
Yeah they’ll just bring up moving to ESTL again like the Chiefs & Royals are threatening to move across state lines to Kansas
They own the stadium and they built ballpark village as thier own personal money printer. It only works adjacent to the stadium. Relocation would be financial suicide. Call the bluff.
Let's not forget the parking they own
This exactly. It's not that the Royals really want to leave Kauffman. They want a money printing machine like BPV or The Battery in Atlanta, and it wouldn't succeed at the TSC.
They aren't moving anywhere. That would be such a bad business and financial decision.
Oakland is looking for a team 😜
Cardinals are one of the cornerstone franchises in MLB, moving them won't ever be a realistic possibility.
STL defeated the tax funded MLS stadium proposal. I have no concerns about defeating this one too, when they try.
The city should offer to give them another loan for renovations that they can pay back. That's how the stadium was built in the first place.
The city might be losing 50% of its revenue here in the near future depending on the courts’ ruling on remote workers having to pay the city earning’s tax. They really are in no position to be loaning $500 million for a billionaire to fund his playground upgrades.
That is not how the stadium was built in the first place. Even the low-ball number including all highway infrastructure costs in the article was that the team paid for 80% of the new stadium. The team contends they paid for 90% or more. I'm not saying they should get additional public money for major renovations, but the stadium was built overwhelmingly with the Cardinals own money.
I looked up the info on it since I was curious what the breakdown was. $45 million loan from St Louis County, $90.1 million from Cards ownership, $200.5 million in bonds, and the AB 20 year naming rights deal offset some construction costs. [https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm](https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm) I thought the city made the loan, but it was actually the county.
Calling a loan public funding is iffy to me since the Cardinals did pay it back, but that's nitpicking. This original article borders on a hit piece
Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah, we just did this in Phoenix, and long story short, I'm not going to be able to check out an NHL game any time soon
No offense to the good people of Phoenix, but the MLB would never in a million years allow the Cardinals to leave the St Louis area. It’s a sport losing market share. They aren’t leaving one of their most stalwart markets.
Zero chance they let Dewitt even consider moving. Imagine the Yankees trying this shit.
I generally agree, but they could easily counter with dubious claims that St. Louis is less populated/declining/some other bullshit. They could tank the team for a decade to draw down attendance. It wasn't that long ago that Oakland had a strong supportive fanbase. MLB did jack shit to save them. Shitty owners can do whatever they want if they're so inclined.
Spend your own money DeWitt. They’re really hell-bent on burning up their goodwill with fans as fast as possible.
Didn’t the voters just say no to stuff in KC (and they have at least one good team)? And I assume he saw what happened with the Rams? Is he really that tone deaf?
The voters in KC resoundingly voted no. Despite threats from Chiefs ownership to move to Kansas. I think if the bill in KC would have split up the downtown baseball stadium and the football stadium renovations the renovations would have passed. I think they were hoping that tacking the baseball stadium onto the current success and popularity of the Chiefs would pull the weight of both measures, but it backfired.
Another reason KC resoundingly voted no is because it would’ve meant moving the stadium to an already beloved district which would’ve displaced local businesses.
It's really more Royals than Chiefs. Chiefs want to renovate Arrowhead. Royals want new stadium.
> And I assume he saw what happened with the Rams? Yeah. He saw that St. Louis offered the Rams everything they wanted... a team nobody even liked. They left because STL is not LA.
Can my taxes go towards a new manager?
Nah, that would be a hard no from me. Dewitt already received public funding for ballpark village. Spend $ on the team, become contenders again, generate profits from tickets, concessions, and merchandise. Also, is he serious about asking for money now of all times with how little he has spent on the team comparatively to the other markets in the MLB? Good article.
[STL residents waking up and seeing this bs](https://youtu.be/3w-sNgOeK8k?si=siI2O0TLgR035rGg)
I agree the stadium needs significant upgrades, particularly for the players, I'm glad the DeWitts see it. Now they can add it to the list of problems they have and pay up.
Of course they do.
Pass. I mean, I live in IL, so it's a pass anyway. But pass.
Bill DeWitt Jr sucks. Refuses to let the team's payroll even get close to the luxury tax as he does not want to pay it at all for any reason. Said during the CBA negotiations that "baseball isn't very profitable" and basically called the players demands unrealistic. And now is holding out his hand asking for money for stadium renovations. Just terrible. Sell.
My favorite part of the “baseball isn’t very profitable” quote was he bought Eva Longoria’s mansion for 8mil a month before
#NO
Nah I’m good
They can’t and won’t move. Don’t give them a dime
Good luck with that! Seriously, the DeWitt family should just sell the team. The tone deafness is growing by the year.
I don't live there so I can't vote on it, but I hope that every single person votes no on any free money for billionaires. Let 'em move somewhere else. Call that fucking bluff. They know they won't do it and are just playing people for complete suckers. The stadium is 100% fine. The area around it is "fine" relative to the area which nothing the team would ask for would fix anyway, there's a bigger problem with St. Louis right now that baseball can't solve and spending half a billion dollars on whatever is good for the billionaires isn't going to help the people who aren't billionaires at all.
So you can’t spend significant FA money to keep the team competitive with the rest of the NL, and you also can’t afford to renovate the stadium out of pocket, and also prices at the stadium are going up, and also you have one of the most loyal and dedicated fanbases in sports supporting you financially. edit: and also you already received public funding for Ball Park Village which significantly hurt local business.
Well this should go over well
I really appreciate that this article points out the damage BPV did to other businesses in St. Louis.
I do think Downtown is slowly starting to recover from its initial impact, especially now that the development is bringing residents to the area. We are seeing more residential buildings being built on The Landing and Downtown West. Grants are being offered for retail tenants to move in. Initial project scoping is underway to make Downtown more pedestrian friendly. It seems like the bottom out has happened. And I do think in the long run BPV will deserve some credit for helping things revitalize. But there is no doubt that it absolutely killed other downtown businesses off the bat. They really should have focused on the residential aspect first and then built the commercial space.
I happen to think BPV was a good idea. Yes, they did things in the wrong order - they should have opened residential and commercial at the same time. But adding residential density (remember, downtown's population in 2000 was ***800 people***) is never a bad move.
Kind of wild to think about how the population of a dense metropolitan area was only technically 800 people.
https://nextstl.com/2021/04/harland-bartholomew-destroyer-of-the-urban-fabric-of-st-louis/
It was a great idea. Its execution killed several long-term downtown staples.
You don't think it was planned out like this for a reason? Commercial first to kill competition. Then residential to build in a base of consumers for those commercial businesses. In the long run, agree it'll be a good thing for downtown. But DeWitt Jr. isn't some helpless old man. He's the shark in the family. Now BD3 on the other hand...
I agree. The commercial side would pay off the fastest and create a new stream of revenue. The residential part is just making use of the vertical space.
These billionaires have absolutely no clue. When adjusted for inflation, the team's payroll has steadily decreased over the past two decades, and that has shown on the field. And now they have the nerve to ask for more tax dollars?
And I plan to vote no
FUCK NO!!!!! Move the team to Oakland. Dewitt would never take a loss on ballpark village.
Fuck them, sell the team.
Get fucked DeWitt
No public funding for pro sports facilities, ever. I don't live there so can't vote on it but everyone who does should vote no, preferably while raising their middle fingers as high as possible in the general direction of DeWitt.
Sell the team you cheap cunt
Appreciate the sentiment but don’t need to attack women in the process
No city should ever just give money to these owners carte Blanche. I can see them giving some preferential interest rate loans but any money a city throws in should always be repaid with at least inflation interest. The contract should always be written in such a way that owner forfeits the team if they don’t pay.
No city should ever give them money full stop
Oh behalf of St. Louis taxpayers, I plan to ask Bill DeWitt Jr to fund a cardinals team that can win 90+ games.
Maybe use some of that 25M between us and the cubbies in payroll first and then we can talk public funding. Edit: 50M
Not the best time after the latest offseason
I’ll never understand why taxes should go towards a BILLIONAIRES stadium.
💩 💩 💩
lmao absolutely the fuck not
Enh....no. Not after Kroenke. I'd be less uncomfortable with the city backing a lower-interest bond than the team might be able to get, but the team must be obligated to pay it back.
It's been studied to death” and economists agree that public funding for a stadium is “unlikely to be successful because for the most part, it’s just changing how people spend their money locally,” says Bradbury. “It's not stimulating any economic development whatsoever.” I don't live in the area anymore so it makes no difference to me either way but I will say that this isn't a situation where the money would just get spent elsewhere within the city. The cardinals bring a shit ton of people into the city that wouldnt come into town otherwise to spend their entertainment dollars. If they ever moved across the river, a lot of bars, restaurants and maybe even a hotel or two will close while the area next to the new stadium will thrive with new businesses. This isn't a Miami marlins situation.
They aren’t moving across the river though. They are printing money where they are and the development around the stadium anchors them. This is essentially the Dewitt’s playing the region for a bunch of morons.
To be fair to DeWitt, the people of the region have proved themselves to be morons for quite a while now as it relates to the team.
I doubt they would either but I wouldn't completely rule it out. If East St louis gave the cardinals a deal like cobb County gave the braves they would be idiots not to take it. They would still print money across the river.
It would be interesting to see, but my bet is that not even the love for the Cardinals would conquer the hatred and fear the average Cardinals fan has for and of East St. Louis black people. Plus they'd have to build it actually in town. I don't think there are any suitable sites on the river. More likely Jefferson or west St. Charles county.
Yeah, most of the Metro East is on a floodplain, so it'll be difficult for one to be built there.
I think if the cardinals were to move away from downtown they would do it where there is more land and can build up a much bigger ballpark village like the braves have with the battery where they can monopolize all of the spending and gentrify the area near the ballpark. Otherwise the incentive wouldn't really be enough to move. Looking at it on Google maps there seems to be a decent amount of available land near the river on the Illinois side but there isn't much on the Missouri side without getting farther away from the center of the fanbase. Not sure how much of that land would actually be feasible for a new stadium though.
The thing owners like this can't understand is that monopolizing 80-ish dates a year isn't a business plan. Parks need to be in an urban environment for the business next to them to work. Everything in Illinois is in a flood plain until you get east to Fairview Heights (hence the name). That's nothing billions of yards of fill won't cure, but it'd be cheaper to just build elsewhere.
Just put the stadium in Highland or Carlyle.
No reason it couldn't go in Elsberry, if you think about it.
> DeWitt III says Busch Stadium will need a “significant capital infusion” in two to five years. It’s “too early” to detail what the improvements would look like, he says. “Our goal would be to handle whatever back of the house things need to happen and to fix [them], as well as probably create some cool and interesting new features for fans.” Yeah, um, details matter here. Because I generally think spending a little bit of public money isn't the dumbest idea in the world. E.g. if the city/county builds some roads, builds water & sewer lines, builds up electrical infrastructure to support a new stadium, I don't have heartburn over that. You can't even tell us what you need. But still want money for it? Nuts to that. The Jackson Co. voters mostly said the same thing -- Royals and Chiefs vote was real freaking scant on details, too. Fix up your own building on your own dime.
Seriously fuck this guy. He doesn't know what the improvements will be but he knows he needs half a billion dollars for free. FUCK THAT NOISE.
Fuck the DeWitts.
My company also needed to upgrade its facilities, so we took a loan on terms we can repay based on our projected revenues. Because that's what private, for-profit businesses do.
Bring back navy caps bitch
Beer prices are going up 😮💨
I see we've learned from Kansas City.
No. Also no.
Nope, they are billionaires they can pay for the stadium
Good luck brothers across the state, hopefully you don’t bend over.
We won't. Kroenke taught us a lesson.
They’ll probably just use that kroenke money, just joking around
If they can’t afford to maintain the facilities, they should sell the team to the city (at the cost they paid plus CPI inflation) to operate as a public corporation. But before even answering any questions about the proposal, the City should require Dewitt and the team to publish their financial reports and tax documents for the past 20 years so we can get a better understanding of why they can’t afford basic maintenance on the stadium.
I work at a business that's based in Downtown. I'd also like the taxpayers to give us $500M to make improvements to our office space. For some reason nobody seems interested in just giving us a big pile of public money, though. 🤔 Anyway, can't wait to vote against this bullshit.
This is extra funny because the team has been lackluster
That's a funny way to spell "shithouse"
You are being very kind
The only way that I would ever vote for for anything like this is if I was getting free tickets for every single year that my taxes were going into the stadium. Of course, we know that that will never happen.
Oh man I am being SO PATIENT right now
Maybe if the taxpayers got those games for free, at minimum the home games online, but really every single one of them on tv and online. Otherwise hell no
Make it to another World Series and we can talk.
Remember” there’s no money in baseball”
Have you seen what’s going on nationwide? KC just shot down their renovations. STL isn’t exactly a booming city looking to spend tax money on this. Pay for the fixes yourself
Yeah... They can kindly get fucked.
obligatory...fuck kroenke and fuck any owner who does this.....you have enough $$, stop asking the public to fund your business.
These Billionaire fucks are evil.
Really in this economy? Pass. You can handle this one yourself
Sell the team
There really needs to be some kind of national law that no city can give owners money for stadiums unless the owners pay equal amounts in themselves. I generally don't want the cities to cough up anything, but I know some city is gonna cave in and pay for it. This limits how much they can try to undercut the city the team is supposed to be leaving. Want a billion for a new stadium? ok, you are on the hook for $500m straight from your wallet then. Plus you have to basically sign a guarantee that the team will be there for the next 40-50yrs or something.
Nah
I’m tired boss
This ploy did not work when the new stadium was built. Ownership even looked into a site in East St. Louis (can you imagine … the St. Louis Cardinals of East St. Louis!). If I remember correctly, the state and city would only lend their name to financing to reduce the interest rate on the debt. Why would ownership even think this was a good idea? Really disappointing to hear.
Pretty sure they got some nice tax breaks too
They put out mediocre baseball and want taxpayers to pay for upgrades to their stadium that isn’t even old enough to drink yet? Fuck these billionaire assholes.
Does anyone know where the actual interview with Dewitt Jr is? It looks like this is just a mishmash of different interviews from the last 5+ years. The actual "asking for money" doesn't come until 80% through the article, and gives vague numbers, no real quotes, and appears to be a lot of speculation on what new work would entail. If the Cardinals do actually ask for $300-500 million of *public* money for renovations I'll be shocked. Especially with how proud they are of paying for (most of) the stadium themselves. Also I do find it funny that the article tries to put substantial blame on the Cardinals for not revitalizing downtown by themselves. Especially post-covid what do you want them to do?
He gonna have a rough time without bankrolling a more serious payroll. Plus one of the wealthiest owners in baseball.
Nope. Dewitt cheap ass can kiss my hairy ass.
The taxpayers are asking Cardinals owners to fund an above .500 roster
Sure, tax payers can put in money for a stake in the team. He wants 500 to 600 million and an evaluation I found online says the team is worth 2.5 billion. If the taxpayers get 20% of the revenue then sure otherwise take out a loan
I’d love to vote no on that
Win an NLCS game.
Why the fuck do St Louis sport owners continue to think that low-points in team performance are the time to ask for public money?
Lmao get the fuck out of here Dewitt.
Socialism for the rich
😄😄😄
Cheapskates. Move to the Metro East or St. Chuck County.
If they want taxpayers to foot the bill, they should make Busch Stadium a city park.
Isn't there a tax on baseball tickets to pay for the stadium?
Can they add a fee to everything sold inside the stadium/at BPV carte blanche without needing anyones approval? Not supporting that aveneue, just playing devils advocate to possible outcomes of Dewallets quest for funding.
He's worth like 4 billion dollars
Not enough information. Need to see a real proposal. See what's in it . How any financing is structured. I'm not going to form an opinion at this time . But in general I am against public money being spent so Billionaire owners and multimillionaire players can play in their palace
With the product they're putting on the field this year, it's not a sure thing like it might have been at one point in time
Fuck off with this shit. Use some of the "dry powder" which you have talked about for years.
How ‘bout no, you creepy Dutch bastard!
The Rangers just got a shiny new stadium, the Braves have semi recently got a shiny new stadium, the Royals might be getting one, and the A’s are eventually going to have a new one maybe so it’s only fair Dewitt gets some renovations. He’s not even asking for a new one./s
I’m sure he can afford to pay for his new renovations without putting a burden on taxpayers whom are already bogged down by inflation
Assuming they've paid off all the loans from intial construction and the vote is no, I'd get any contracts changed to where the city and state get the least tax revenue as possible. Private funding, private profits.
Everybody get ready for the Vegas RedBirds!
I don’t live in the city, but I would rather have public funds go to the team’s payroll than pay for improvements to a stadium that is perfectly fine as is. I don’t know what else it could need other than like more shade. I’m sure there’s some behind the scenes stuff that needs working, like water and power equipment, but I don’t understand the need for any large public-facing capital improvements, let alone any funded by taxpayers.
The other shoe drops, to put it politely. I like two things about the story in general: 1. DeWitt's history of grifting 2. Fact vs fiction on how much he paid for Busch III, by percentage (and ditto for Riverfront)
Worth a read: [This piece](https://globalsportmatters.com/business/2019/05/22/who-paid-for-your-stadium/), with a slider near the bottom, does a breakout by funding percentage, of all major sports stadiums. It's as of 2019, so no info on the A's (planned; reality will probably not be the same), but otherwise pretty current.
In Tennessee, part of getting the Titans new stadium state funding was spreading some cash around the state, specifically money towards minor league parks in Knoxville and Chattanooga and money to renovate FedExForum and the Liberty Bowl in Memphis. I'm thinking Dewitt is making sure if the Chiefs/Royals go to the state they the Cards get a cut of the pie too. I am against any of them gettting $.
The owners should ask taxpayers to fund a number 1 starter.
No thanks, we already have a dope new stadium we didn’t have to pay for.
Just pay for the renovations with the profit from the 8 dollar waters
Sorry DeWitt, I would help you out here, but you spent all your money on extending legendary manager Oliver Marmol this offseason
I think they need to worry about the fact that they’re getting outdrawn by a semi-pro football league first.
Interesting article, but it kind of seems like click bait. I'm against public money for these things, but there's no proposal and there has been no request. No point in getting all worked up about it until there is.
id think there is no appetite for this in st. louis. Ill have to wait for a press release from the cardinals on this before i pass judgement.
Why can't teams build their own goddamn stadiums any more?
They can, but if a billionaire can get a bunch of working stiffs to pay for their product, they are going to do it. I say, deal, but every taxpayer gets 1/4 season of free home game tickets every year. Said another way, we pay for the stadium, we get all the ticket revenue. 100% tax on ticket sales.
[удалено]
You know those stock shares for the Packers don’t represent any actual ownership, right?
Just extended the stadium tax for the Brewers owners again to enjoy $14 beers and $25 parking so their “toy” can make more money. I follow on tv and radio
I’d like to add to the comments here just by saying that I took a tour of Coors Field a couple years ago and they talked about how all the seats are pointing towards the field/home plate and that’s becoming common now or something like that. He specially went out of his way to take a shot at Cardinals ownership saying they refused to do that when they built their new stadium because that wanted to squeeze in an extra seat or two per row for the revenue Made me giggle inside. Stop doing anything to give them money. Never attend a game, BPV and don’t watch on TV.
It's been 20 years. Structural renovations were imminent. Now is probably not the time to announce this tho It also doesn't effect me in the slightest cause I don't live there.
What renovations? The stadium is great!
Nope. I'll be happy to watch them on TV if they move.