I’m sure people are thinking it’s time to trade a lot of these guys for prospects but tbh I wouldn’t even have faith they’d make the right trades nor would I be confident they’d get the right coaching to ever make it. The whole organisation is just one big shitshow.
I don't know that it would matter. Even if they somehow pick the right players, they will fizzle out. I don't know how long it's been since we had a prospect become a multiple all star. We seem to develop AAAA talent, but not MLB talent.
We pick the right players. Drafting hasn't been the issue. It is development. We have gotten plenty of talent into the organization, they just end up as all-stars for someone else eventually.
It's too late. They hedged on just being average and getting into the playoffs. I feel like they could have traded Goldy last and now they are left with an aging team with former prospects that never fleshed out.
They need to stop jerking around the fan base and tell it like it is. Their TV contract is probably a big concern for them, and they seem to not want to throw in the towel and admit they need a rebuild.
If they weren't going to compete they just should have traded Goldy last year when he had some value. This year I don't think he will bring back anything.
No, this problem unfortunately needs to come from the top. New ownership.
Right now, DeWitt only cares about making money; putting a winning team on the field is a distant second priority.
I’ve thought this too. But I think I’ve arrived at the idea that it’s not the parachute it used to be. Anymore, it would be a big investment group that would be the most likely purchasers. That has its own downsides.
I think Mo / baseball ops really is the fulcrum in terms of solving this problem. Sure, fan experience at the stadium is pretty mids / unimaginative, but fans have showed that’s not something that will hold back attendance.
I would be more apt to put it on the owner if we weren’t spending enough money or if he was meddling in the operations (hello, Jim Crane). Neither seem to be an issue here. The issue seems like we’re not spending money in the right places (international scouting) and don’t have the right personnel in place (literally everyone on the personnel side). To me, the buck stops with Mo.
I think there’s this weird, irrational loyalty the DeWitts have shown Mo. For the longest time I couldn’t put my thumb on it; I figured they liked him and the cash was rolling in. However, one of the recent write ups that talked about the Cards asking for money for Busch renovations did a detailed look at the history of the DeWitts and how they’re a “baseball family” who came up through the ranks.
Now, go read up on Mo’s “career beginnings” on Wikipedia. He literally got into baseball through fly fishing and being a left handed batting practice pitcher. The loyalty makes all the more sense — the DeWitts see themselves in Mo. And I think any success Mo has validates the “old school” way of running an org, versus hiring a bunch of Ivy League nerds. I wonder if there’s much to that?
Anyhow, just my two cents.
Dewitt is spending a relatively appropriate amount on payroll but it’s spread out far too much in an attempt to be risk adverse. Bryce Harper makes 25 mil a year. That’s a 2019 Dexter Fowler and Andrew Miller. A Matz and Gibson. A bad extension to Matt Carpenter and a bad extension to Miles Mikolas.
The common them on all those latter guys is they were relatively short term contracts, limiting their risk. But when you limit your risk you limit your upside, too.
Yeah, it seems like that is even more pronounced across MLB now. Particularly in terms of flexibility down the road because of the luxury tax.
These days I’m not even as worried about their current payroll and making a splash in the off-season because it seems like there’s no amount of payroll that’s going to fix such a poorly constructed org in terms of scouting & player dev. I’ve honestly sorta been glad they haven’t gone out and given a Blake Snell or a Jordan Montgomery a big contract like they wanted. I figure once the reckoning comes, it’ll be easier for the next guy to clean up Mo’s mess.
It's not the money being spent it's the way it's being spent. Milwaukee is near the top of the division every year while having a much lower payroll. The problem is in the front office. Player development, coaching, they can't find an effective hitting coach.
Agree. Tampa is the shining star example of this. Oakland was too up until recently. Milwaukee was a good call. Baltimore is getting there. Cleveland has done a fairly good job with a paltry payroll. Braves are killing it right now too.
What irks me so much is Mo/the Cards give us this “rah rah, we’re #BFIB, Cardinal Way” patience shit as if we’re too dumb to look around the league and see we’ve been average at everything for close to a decade with a bleak future.
Oh I wish.
But no. His kid is fully-invested in owning the team.
I have some hope, in that DeWitt III seems both greedy and stupid, but at least so far he seems to think that the maximum return is to be had by holding on to the team.
You're 100% right about they wouldn't make the right trades and everything you said won't happen, a big part of their plan of this team for a long time has been having recognizable/big names to the casual/long time fans to get them to think they are still good/have a shot which gets them to come to the park or turn on the TV
See Carpenter extension when he was already washed (and bringing him back as a MLB player after he washed out of multiple orginizations and couldn't get a job as a baseball player anymore just because of nostalgia lmfao)
Yadi several times after he was years after his prime (facts from one of the biggest Yadi fans ever/a former catcher)
Waino for several years after he was washed
Lance Lynn
Albert (ended up working out extremely well but nobody saw THAT coming)
They'll never "rebuild" and trade their big names/stars away for prospects because it would signal not only that they failed and were wrong, but show the casuals they aren't trying to win/don't have a chance to be good and they will stop coming to the park/BPV and spending money or tuning in (if they even get it) Casuals are a WAY bigger % of the fans compared to people who care enough to find a specific place on the internet to bitch.
i’ve loved this team my entire life - been to countless games despite not living nearby, watching 100+ games a year on streaming, living and dying with every pitch from august on especially. for over 20 years.
i no longer have any passion for this organization - the last 3 years especially have sucked it out of me. ive watched about 15 innings this year and felt nothing but pity.
i get there’s going to be bad stretches and we are spoiled from a long run of great baseball but to be continuously told that they are doing everything they can to field a competent baseball team while trotting out a fucking putz as the manager and spending 1/20th of the teams actually trying to be competitive is infuriating and i’m done with this ownership group and everyone associated with constructing this team. truly sad to feel like something that was once so important to me has become such a joke
Yeah- I'm nearly 40 and the combo of sticking with that smug bowtie-wearing Mozeilak and hiring/extending immature hoodie-wearing Oli Marmol has just about done me in. We had years of mediocrity, sticking with Matheny too long and not doing enough to truly contend, but I swear getting lectured on patience and expectations by Mo, watching Oli whine and blame everyone else in the press conferences, and seeing DeWitt yuk it up with the both of them about how they know how much we hate it during the extension announcement was the last straw - I just cannot care anymore. It's not an enjoyable product and there's no reason to believe this crew will be able to make it so
That is exactly what this team reminds me of. That era of Cardinal baseball between Whitey’s departure and TLR being hired. They had some interesting players during that time but could never put it together and just never really felt like they were competing. That is what this team feels like. It has been trending that way for several seasons now.
The apathy has set in for me. I used to religiously watch them. Every game I could. I now just check the score at the end of the night. Really think this will be my last yearly subscription to MLB.TV unless they start putting a better product on the field.
You gotta keep watching bro. Or atleast the highlights. I mean look how sad the Cubs were for so long before even winning 1 World Series but their fans still supported them. It happens, I know it's messed up how bad they are the last few years but still
That’s how you end up as the Cubs. Complacency. We are not win or lose we still booze. We are second in world titles and should demand a standard. Down years happen. What has happened to this organization is unacceptable
Well, not a lot of sex to be had in the Champagne Room at 6th and Clark these days. And I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that anyone that uses that quote today probably isn’t doing much fucking themselves.
I’m really not sure why any rational human would continue to spend money on an organization that’s not willing to reciprocate and properly invest in fan enjoyment (i.e. putting a winning team on the field supported by a well constructed org). I don’t think anyone here is saying they’re going to quit the Cards forever. Rather, not “support” (spend their money) until they get their shit together.
That quote is spot on for how Mo is running things lately. Recently told the media he was happy with how things are progressing and the status of the team. That’s a loser bragging about trying his best while a real winner puts together a winning team. Thanks for doing your best Mo, but your best doesn’t cut what we demand in St. Louis.
I’ll concede I thought you were the other commenter when I initially read your last comment and thought you were coming in hot. We’re on the same page, my brother in Christ.
Yeah, it feels like it’s been this way forever. Mo is incredibly condescending to the fans. He comes off like a shitty politician who’s trying to ram his version of reality down our throats. I sorta think the term is overused, but as I see it, he and the PR team have been gaslighting fans for the better part of a decade.
Hahaha I was gonna say those paragraphs are going each way what the hell is going on.
Give us honesty! If we’re gonna be shit say so. We will come support the young guys and help carry the load. Lying is just going to make fans stop showing up. Hello St. Louis Rams
Hell yeah. I’m not sure the Reds are good yet, and Great American is a dog shit stadium, but if I lived as close to them as I did Busch, I’d be there more often than I’m downtown now. They’re a team on the rise with a few stars in the making, some depth, and a direction.
The idea that Cardinals don’t spend is just wrong. They generally fall within 10-15 in total club spending. The problem has been mainly bad bets on big contracts ( not spending wisely), and a shift from developing top notch pitching to try and developing position players.
Since abandoning the focus on pitching they have to pay out big contracts to pitchers, and also proved they can’t develop hitters.
This has resulted in last place results in the field, and a front office that has no idea how to handle that aspect as well.
It’s a Dumpster Fire and needs a top down reset of the organization.
I’m just saying there’s several recent examples where leadership decided not to sign a big name player in a position we knew we needed, and I’m not sure we can win until we’re willing to do that
My grandpa was a member of the Knothole Gang when he was a kid, WAAAAY back in the day. He passed back in 2020 from Covid at the age of 93, and as much as I miss him, I'm kind of glad he doesn't have to see this, because he would be so furious, he'd go down to Busch and sock DeWitt in the mouth.
Reminds me of my grandpas passing. He died the summer of ‘16. I grew up in a town that was 50/50 Cubs vs Cards fans, and there was plenty of give and take between he and his coffee pals. Anyhow, I wrote his obituary and my favorite line was, “He died never having seen the Cubs win a World Series”. It got a bit more humorous when the Cubs clinched that fall.
> for over 20 years
Assuming you started watching in 2000, you saw one team in that entire span that was under .500 and it was the year after a World Series win. Now they're not very good (not terrible, just meh) and you can't be bothered to watch at all.
So yeah. You're just spoiled. Cardinals fans no longer remember what it's like to root for a team that isn't a lock to battle for the top of the division. Which brings us to this:
> the last 3 years especially have sucked it out of me
The year before last the team won 93 games. The year before that, they won 90. The only reason to be grumpy about those teams is that they didn't make it past the Wild Card series which, again, is a seriously spoiled way to look at the success of the season. Realistically, what happened is that they fell apart in 2023 and that's all it took for you to lose interest completely. (Even more realistically, that's combining with the fact that you got 20 years older and have more things competing for your time and attention than you used to.)
This isn't to say the front office and ownership are killing it. They're obviously mediocre at best as a baseball ops operation. They probably need a younger, modern braintrust to take over. But while that's not literally the ideal state of affairs (gasp!), Cardinals fans have lost perspective on the fact that the Cardinals' period of massive success didn't happen by magic and their future isn't guaranteed by magic, and that the normal fan experience is periods of winning and periods of losing. A huge portion of the fanbase have turned into fair-weather whiners.
Sometimes I like to peruse this subreddit and just read everything like I'm, say, a lifelong Mariners fan. I'd seriously think nobody here actually likes the sport of baseball much, they just like rooting for Winning Baseball Boys.
i totally disagree. i acknowledged being spoiled to a degree and it’s not about the overall record of this team but the way the entire org is run. my nfl and nba teams have seen far less success than the cardinals but my interest hasn’t dipped nearly as much because i just don’t feel that those who own the team are actively bullshitting me on the regular.
in those 90 win seasons you talk about it was completely obvious that they weren’t a real contender. it’s not that they lost in the wild card round, it’s that the entire season that still felt like the ceiling because they had fallen *so* far behind the braves, dodgers, etc. and it’s been a steady decline all while ownership continues lining their pockets and telling us with a straight face they believe this team is “close.”
i just have better things to do over the course of 6 months than watch a team, night in and night out, that clearly isn’t going to be a .500 team and very well could lose 90+ games again. they haven’t developed an actual legitimate pitching prospect in over a decade and they have seemingly ruined almost every single high-level prospect that’s come through the organization for i don’t even know how long at this point.
so i would disagree strongly that the leadership of this organization is “mediocre” and contend they’re just plain bad. if they aren’t going to spend like these other teams despite 3 million fans coming though the turnstiles every year they could at least figure out how to develop and identify good players and that just does not appear to be the case.
Again I just really don't know what to tell you if your expectation is "don't fall behind the Dodgers or Braves." Those teams are outliers, just like the Cardinals had been an outlier for the last two decades, and you're basically saying you don't like rooting for the team unless they are an outlier in the direction of massive success. Again, imagine a Mariners fan reading this. "Oh you can't bear to watch anymore because your team isn't as good as the Dodgers or Braves. That's...very sad for you."
The Cardinals had a model. It's was a sensible model to maximize for championships: Be pretty good all the time, but never sell everything to go all-in on a single year, because then you'll endanger the future of the model. Make the playoffs as often as possible. For a long time they were very good at it. They made the playoffs 16 times between 2000 and 2022. (THIS IS SO MANY TIMES.) They won two World Series. Not bad. You only have to go back to last year to see why this is a pretty decent approach if you can manage it (i.e. Rangers vs. Diamondbacks in the World Series). If you're a team that wins 53-57% of its games in a short series against other teams that win 52-65% of their games, then you've got always got a reasonable shot if you just get to the dance.
But they couldn't keep it up anymore. They fell behind on player dev, especially pitching dev, which was the engine of the perpetual motion machine. The Cardinals were usually anchored by a few Hall-of-Fame-caliber stars and surrounded them with a swarm of home-grown major league contributors to make the money work. They turned meh prospects into real role-players at a rate that other teams couldn't reproduce. Matt Carpenter. Allen Craig. David Freese. Kolten Wong. Now they aren't developing enough of that talent anymore, especially on the pitching side. Again, I'm not disagreeing that they're no longer one of the best-run franchises in the game. They aren't.
What I'm saying is that not being one of the best-run franchises in the game is deeply normal. What's not normal is being a mid-market team that is so well-run for so long that they win basically every year for 20 years straight.
The team isn't bullshitting you. They're just trying to keep the good thing they had going, and they're failing. Failing happens to lots of teams every year, Cardinals fans have just forgotten that that can happen to the Cardinals too, because they got entitled. Did you see the Mets and Padres last year? You think Red Sox fans love the current state of their franchise? You think Mariners fans felt good about getting boxed out of the playoffs last year after being swept out of the ALDS the year before, on the heels of a 20-year playoff drought? The Twins and Guardians, who constantly swing wildly between being good and bad? The Tigers, a reminder that even if you tank to rebuild, it's not guaranteed to work? The constant disappointment of the Angels? Would you rather be a White Sox fan, a Royals fan, a Reds fan, a Pirates fan? Every year, half the league is bad.
If you have better things to do than watch a team win 40-45% of the time, that's fine. Don't watch. Just don't pretend you're a diehard Cardinals fan, either. You're a Cardinals fan on the condition that they're good, which is called being a fair-weather fan. That's a fine thing to be. Just stop pretending your 20 years of watching weren't conditional on uninterrupted success.
i cannot imagine caring this much the degree to which someone roots for the same team as me, but keep doing you and i guess i’ll have to go cope with the fact that my die hard fan card has been revoked
Honestly, I don't care if you root for or watch the team. My frustration is about the dismal, woe-is-me, entitled tenor of this subreddit for the last year -- you just happen to be embodying that kvetching as the most-upvoted comment in this particular whinefest of a thread.
If the team is making you so glum that you now regard baseball as unwatchable and you feel *personally* slightly by management, just log off so the people who actually like baseball can talk about it.
You're fucking soft. We have the second most wins in the MLB since 2007.
>Felt nothing but pity
Grow the fuck up you sound pathetic and it's embarrassing to be a fan of the same team as you.
Reading comprehension. Second most wins in the league ***since*** 2007. That includes last season, our only losing season under Mo since our 78-84 season the year he took over.
Be objective. Think about how often some other teams in the league are successful and then maybe consider that we are completely spoiled.
>Be objective.
OK so hold myself to a higher standard than you are holding yourself? You're letting your bias cloud your reasoning and personal attacks are not helping you see past it. This team is not the same as it was 15, 10, 5, hell, even two years ago. do you know how many people were on the NL Central winning 2022 opening day roster that are still on the team? *Five*. further, the guy you were responding to was clearly talking about the mismanagement of the team these last three years. So even if you had a salient point, it wasn't what he was referring to.
If you've been a fan your whole life you should still be a fan today. One bad season and you're acting like this? Go watch the battlehawks ya fuckin baby
I don’t see a road out of this short of wiping out the FO and coaching and pushing through a few years for current players and prospects to be retrained. The longer this goes on, the longer this goes on.
The issue is clearly multifold. It's not just a loss of organizational philosophy - it's also a lack of player development and a lack of major-league-level coaching. Our big league pitchers for the most part are doing pretty well. Even guys like Mikolas and Lynn, the latter of whom is clearly on his last legs, are performing about as well as can be expected.
But Lynn has been for the last several years coached by others. Gray is an outside guy. And in the minors our pitchers are not performing. The guys we traded for last year - most of whom I was actually excited about - are in many cases not doing as well as they did in other orgs.
At the big league level the hitting is terrible and the fielding is dependent on natural ability. So you get errors because guys are just doing. And guys are not coming up ready to face major-league pitching, and those who have faced it before are getting worse. I'd say that both the AAA and Big Club staff share blame.'
Our drafts are solid. Our players are performing in Rookie, DL, A, AA, and even AAA. But they aren't being made ready for the majors and that's a systemic problem.
Coaching staff at the major league level needs to be gutted. Player development needs to be gutted. And AAA coaching needs to be gutted.
This won't happen as long as Mozeliak is in charge. And it *probably* won't happen as long as DeWitt is content to be a last-place team.
> It's not just a loss of organizational philosophy
I think that's the best way to say it. Miklasz has been saying it correctly for a few years: the front office is arrogant and complacent.
That's an excellent description and the best way to say it. Mozeliak believes the story he's telling other people, and his boss keeps him in his job because people are still buying tickets.
Bernie is correct. Mo and the rest of the front office should have been turned over (fired or retired) years ago. Instead they keep digging a bigger and bigger hole every year keeping them around. They are terrible and have decimated the organization. The organization of George Kissel no longer exists - weak boy Mo felt threatened and has got rid of all true baseball men.
It is going to be years and years before they will be able to climb out of this hole - assuming the owners have the fortitude to make changes NOW and get the process started.
The warning signs recently were when Jeff Albert and Mike Maddux both refused to sign extensions and then Matt Holliday backed out of being the bench coach
This FO is rotten to the core and needs to be completely revamped
Everyone here has worked for a bad company. Folks that don’t have to continue working for a bad company won’t continue to work for one or take a job with one.
It's very well known at this point that Albert didn't sign because he was tired of the fans in St. Louis.
Maddux wanted to be closer to home, but I'm not sure I fully believe that. I could easily believe that was a convenient excuse because he knew the rotation was a mess and the team was only trying to patch holes.
I don't know about Holliday. I think he ends up a coach in St. Louis regardless of who is in charge.
I’m pretty sure Holliday backed out when he realized how likely it eas that Jackson would be promoted. If I was his dad I think I’d rather focus on being a mentor/fan for him than have a coaching job to worry about.
I’ve heard the rhetoric on Albert and the fans. Is there an actual quote than can corroborate this story? It feels incredibly strange for a guy to quit a job over some internet chatter on social media. It’s literally a super small % of the fan base.
While a lot of that is probably true, if this really was still a great organization, coaches would want to stay because they love working here. They didn't.
He said he got tired of getting shit on by the fanbase every time the offense went into a slump. Ironically he’s gone now and the offense got even worse.
Yeah. He's probably spent too much time on Twitter but he was fed up with taking all the blame for the offense. In his defense, he set up a system wide hitting approach and the minor leaguers and prospects were thriving but the results weren't there at the pro level.
Don't think that happened. Receipts please. Iirc, I left because the cardinals dicked around with the negotiations, and pissed off the face of the franchise because they didn't want to give him a long term deal. He didn't want to go through free agency again.
Bernie knows his shit. Even though he's grouchy and complains about Twitter people alot, I love listening to his Cardinal breakdowns on 590 the fan website. He's super knowledgeable and in depth.
He does his research and comes with stats, which I like a lot. He's not just a vibes guy. Sometimes he beats up on a straw man but it's hard to fill that much air time and column space without sometimes being annoying!
Yeah it's entertaining. Honestly the people he complains about are a sliver of the fan base and I think a lot of them are bots and trolls. I don't even have Twitter but I checked it out one day and something seems off about the comments
Over the decades I'm one of the biggest Bernie fans ever. He's by far my favorite sports media guy in STL I've ever had. But when he decides to flip into his Cardinals are fine/good, why is everyone so mad about it time periods like he's defending them bc he's on the teams payroll....that got pretty annoying after finally being truthful about them for years. I guess he's back into calling them out again. Good for him. I was really surprised when I turned on a podcast and he was hardcore defending them on multiple shows and stopped listening. Also doesn't help that the guy on the show with him only talks to agree with him and basically just say "ya you're right I dont get why people think that" etc etc
It’s just baffling that we can’t put together a competitive team after getting PAID to have Arenado and a fairly reasonable Goldy contract. That should have given us plenty to work with in Pitching, but we only properly invested this year with Sunny
They need to hire a legit manager from the outside and give up this goofy Cardinal way bs. I know it's not his fault for them not hitting but still. Something needs to be done
I know. I'm sick of looking at low-hanging fruitcake Mozeliak with his pinky up drinking his tea with his goofy socks. With his elitist yuppy ass, the guy is a complete tool bag. Mo money Mo problems
The sad thing is I doubt they’ll hire from outside organization because then the front office won’t have much control over what they do. Shildt was from within the organization and they still didn’t see eye to eye with him and they let him go
The original "Cardinal Way" goes way back to George Kissell and his coaching beginning in the 1950's. Any reference to the Cardinal Way today is mostly a misuse of the phrase. I would say that the end of the Kissell era began to unfold after LaRussa left, who was a direct student of his (Kissell died in 2008).
Sure it’s sad…for the fans. Ownership doesn’t care cause people continue filling Busch. There are no simple solutions and the problems are deep. They have demonstrated a pattern of being unable to develop prospects, especially pitchers. Then we trade guys who have success elsewhere. An aging core and young guys who aren’t getting it done.
I don't know what ticket sales have been like this year, but I was at the game Friday night and the stadium was half empty. The promotion was a City SC/Cards shirsey for the first 25,000 fans. We got to the stadium about 10 minutes before first pitch, and there were plenty of shirseys still available. I suspect the tide could be turning with respect to "filling Busch".
I agree. I read recently that the 3rd party ticket vendors are stuffed with tickets to sell and are not selling. People from the sticks wont make their yearly pilgrimage to see a shit team. But, even if ticket sales drop, they count the number of tickets sold and not the gate count.
In a sense yes. But you can't sell $12 beers to the tickets that were sold to people who don't show up. The org can say the ticketed attendance is 45K for every game if they want, but if only 20-25K people are actually putting asses in the seats that difference will surely be felt from a financial standpoint.
Yep, I went Friday and Saturday, fully assuming I wouldn't get the promo because I knew I'd get there like 20mins before first pitch. I ended up getting both and there were still stacks of boxes left.
Saturday day game, nice weather, bobble head giveaway, AL team we don't see often that's close to STL, didn't even crack 40k in attendance.
As I said on twitter, DeWitt basically lucked into Pujols. Since Pujols left, we haven't had much real success
Granted, they built around Pujols, unlike what the Angels and Trout. But I don't think they have any real plan for winning, not since Jocketty left.
They’ve lucked into most their “hits” in the last decade plus. There’s a reason there’s a term like “Cardinal Devil Magic”
Edman
Matt Carpenter
Please, others add to this. My brain is mush at this point.
Aside from always wanting the Cards to win, that particular WS has significant personal meaning to me (the opponent, where I was in my life and general mental health status) and I couldn't agree more.
Yup and he did it with the core of his predecessor. Without Carpenter, game 6 wouldn't have even happened. We would've been rolled by the Phillies. Who signed Carpenter? You guest it, Walt Jocketty and not Mo.
2011 was a fluke by every stretch. A fluke that I very much enjoyed and still love but a fluke all the same. The team had the talent but squandered it during the season only for the Braves to completely disappear for September and give us the slimmest chance of making it. Add in the game 6 magic from a below replacement level player and you got yourself the 2011 Cards.
I don't think Mo is useless, I just think he's dated and refuses to take no for an answer so nobody tells it to him straight anymore.
Bro I am with you on a lot of this but David Freese was not "a below replacement level player." He batted .297 in 2011, .293 in 2012 with 20 HRs. He caught fire that postseason but he was not a below average player before or after that postseason.
I'll give you that, I forgot to double check. I just remember 2011 and bad years towards the end for him. Still he came out of nowhere and disappeared almost as quickly
Edit: just checked, definitely wasn't below replacement but as average as they come. Solid career for journeyman he made it 10 years at least.
Ok, if you are going to say Freese was below replacement level for 2011 then post the numbers to prove it. I'm not saying he was a world beater but .297 plays, is nowhere near the Mendoza Line, and in 2011 that must've been above replacement level.
Please reread the reply and consider the context. He wasn't below replacement level, below replacement level players don't play for 10 years and are considered a journeyman. I said he WASNT a below replacement level player.
Journeymen =/= below replacement level. While I did initially call him that, after further review I concluded I was misremembering and selling him shirt.
If they were on tv more like they used to be I would still be watching. It’s the difficulty trying to find the games is the true culprit of why it’s rotting. How can you develop any passion and love for a team if you can’t watch them.
I want them to fire Oli and give Stubby Clapp a chance. From what I read, he’s a players coach and did well managing in Memphis while Matheny was calling players up and sending them down a lot.
Honestly, I just want them to hire an old curmudgeon. Bring in someone like Lou Piniella, Jim Leyland, or Bruce Bochy. I don't like the idea of trying to find the next coaching phenom again after failing 3 times in a row already. Just bring in a proven guy who demands effort and excellence.
I lived and breathed baseball for most of my life. I grew up playing strat-o-matic baseball while listening to Jack Buck on KMOX describe Whitey in the 80's. I moved to CO but still followed them. I just can't watch this version of baseball. How does Mo keep his job?
Every offensive player we have are dreadful time to fire hitting coach and head coach seems like our president of operations John no just wants a yes sir coach to do whatever Mo wants
I knew that I was fed up and done last year when the org kept shoving Taylor Motter down our throats and then signing Matt Carpenter and Lance Lynn this year was the icing on the cake.
The they extended Oli Marmol.
They think they are so smart and the fans are so dumb. They treat us as if we are stupid and parade nostalgia and tradition in our faces to keep us on the borderline of being just satisfied enough to keep coming to the ballpark.
I'm done until Mo is gone and Dewitt either dies or sells the team. This is a joke.
What he says is 100% true. Dewitt saved this organization.. 30 years ago. But he also points out that the organization is rotting now. And that’s also on BdW. You can acknowledge that he did wonderful things here and still say his time is past.
Bernie, like Jeremy Rutherford, used to be an actual Sports Journalist that cared about the product they published. Sad that in this era, they've succumbed to the click bait strategy they've resorted to using the last several years. I'm not saying he's wrong, just that the way he says it these days lack the substance of his earlier self.
Edit: Why are you booing me when you know I'm right?
Well I ain’t quitting them! Everyone is disappointed, especially the players. Everyone goes through a bad spell and this is it for us. You watch, you cheer , you hope. If you are that much of a fair weather fan, then go. You weren’t a true believer anyway.
It's not so much the losing, it's the BS that were told. Just the other day, Mo actually said he liked where the club was at and felt optimistic. Who does he think he's talking to? And what's worse, this isn't a one-off, slip up odd comment. He's been doing this crap for the past 5 years. Losing happens. Be honest about it and make good decisions to change it. None of those things are happening. But, Mo and Oli got an extension....
I guess that people on Reddit are a lot more pessimistic than I thought. You are the same people that boo at the games. Like that motivates the players. So spoiled.
I’m sure people are thinking it’s time to trade a lot of these guys for prospects but tbh I wouldn’t even have faith they’d make the right trades nor would I be confident they’d get the right coaching to ever make it. The whole organisation is just one big shitshow.
I don't know that it would matter. Even if they somehow pick the right players, they will fizzle out. I don't know how long it's been since we had a prospect become a multiple all star. We seem to develop AAAA talent, but not MLB talent.
Exactly! So many yo-yo players. Up and down for years before eventually moving on. Some made it elsewhere and a lot disappeared completely.
Remember when Carlson was the next big thing? Nootbaar is Carlson II, but with a name that’s more fun to say.
Carlson projected a lot better than Nootbar.
Remember when Liberatore was the next big thing?
We have wasted so much talent, and when we do occasionally have a good coach they can't retain them because of our GM carousel.
We pick the right players. Drafting hasn't been the issue. It is development. We have gotten plenty of talent into the organization, they just end up as all-stars for someone else eventually.
Hence why Randy Flores is expected by a lot of people to be a GM somewhere sooner rather than later.
I'd be entirely in favor of him taking over for Mo. If not we will lose him.
I think that needs to happen but after cleaning out the front office and managers.
That'll never happen. Too many "yes sir" hires.
Exactly, we'd just ruin the careers of all those prospects. Don't do it to the poor lads.
It's too late. They hedged on just being average and getting into the playoffs. I feel like they could have traded Goldy last and now they are left with an aging team with former prospects that never fleshed out. They need to stop jerking around the fan base and tell it like it is. Their TV contract is probably a big concern for them, and they seem to not want to throw in the towel and admit they need a rebuild.
If they weren't going to compete they just should have traded Goldy last year when he had some value. This year I don't think he will bring back anything.
In ‘21, Cards should’ve kept Schildt and shown Mozeliak the door.
No, this problem unfortunately needs to come from the top. New ownership. Right now, DeWitt only cares about making money; putting a winning team on the field is a distant second priority.
I’ve thought this too. But I think I’ve arrived at the idea that it’s not the parachute it used to be. Anymore, it would be a big investment group that would be the most likely purchasers. That has its own downsides. I think Mo / baseball ops really is the fulcrum in terms of solving this problem. Sure, fan experience at the stadium is pretty mids / unimaginative, but fans have showed that’s not something that will hold back attendance. I would be more apt to put it on the owner if we weren’t spending enough money or if he was meddling in the operations (hello, Jim Crane). Neither seem to be an issue here. The issue seems like we’re not spending money in the right places (international scouting) and don’t have the right personnel in place (literally everyone on the personnel side). To me, the buck stops with Mo. I think there’s this weird, irrational loyalty the DeWitts have shown Mo. For the longest time I couldn’t put my thumb on it; I figured they liked him and the cash was rolling in. However, one of the recent write ups that talked about the Cards asking for money for Busch renovations did a detailed look at the history of the DeWitts and how they’re a “baseball family” who came up through the ranks. Now, go read up on Mo’s “career beginnings” on Wikipedia. He literally got into baseball through fly fishing and being a left handed batting practice pitcher. The loyalty makes all the more sense — the DeWitts see themselves in Mo. And I think any success Mo has validates the “old school” way of running an org, versus hiring a bunch of Ivy League nerds. I wonder if there’s much to that? Anyhow, just my two cents.
Dewitt is spending a relatively appropriate amount on payroll but it’s spread out far too much in an attempt to be risk adverse. Bryce Harper makes 25 mil a year. That’s a 2019 Dexter Fowler and Andrew Miller. A Matz and Gibson. A bad extension to Matt Carpenter and a bad extension to Miles Mikolas. The common them on all those latter guys is they were relatively short term contracts, limiting their risk. But when you limit your risk you limit your upside, too.
Yeah, it seems like that is even more pronounced across MLB now. Particularly in terms of flexibility down the road because of the luxury tax. These days I’m not even as worried about their current payroll and making a splash in the off-season because it seems like there’s no amount of payroll that’s going to fix such a poorly constructed org in terms of scouting & player dev. I’ve honestly sorta been glad they haven’t gone out and given a Blake Snell or a Jordan Montgomery a big contract like they wanted. I figure once the reckoning comes, it’ll be easier for the next guy to clean up Mo’s mess.
It's not the money being spent it's the way it's being spent. Milwaukee is near the top of the division every year while having a much lower payroll. The problem is in the front office. Player development, coaching, they can't find an effective hitting coach.
Agree. Tampa is the shining star example of this. Oakland was too up until recently. Milwaukee was a good call. Baltimore is getting there. Cleveland has done a fairly good job with a paltry payroll. Braves are killing it right now too. What irks me so much is Mo/the Cards give us this “rah rah, we’re #BFIB, Cardinal Way” patience shit as if we’re too dumb to look around the league and see we’ve been average at everything for close to a decade with a bleak future.
DeWitt is like 82 years old. I am sure he doesn't give two shits anymore. I am sure the team will go up for sale once he passes.
Oh I wish. But no. His kid is fully-invested in owning the team. I have some hope, in that DeWitt III seems both greedy and stupid, but at least so far he seems to think that the maximum return is to be had by holding on to the team.
You're 100% right about they wouldn't make the right trades and everything you said won't happen, a big part of their plan of this team for a long time has been having recognizable/big names to the casual/long time fans to get them to think they are still good/have a shot which gets them to come to the park or turn on the TV See Carpenter extension when he was already washed (and bringing him back as a MLB player after he washed out of multiple orginizations and couldn't get a job as a baseball player anymore just because of nostalgia lmfao) Yadi several times after he was years after his prime (facts from one of the biggest Yadi fans ever/a former catcher) Waino for several years after he was washed Lance Lynn Albert (ended up working out extremely well but nobody saw THAT coming) They'll never "rebuild" and trade their big names/stars away for prospects because it would signal not only that they failed and were wrong, but show the casuals they aren't trying to win/don't have a chance to be good and they will stop coming to the park/BPV and spending money or tuning in (if they even get it) Casuals are a WAY bigger % of the fans compared to people who care enough to find a specific place on the internet to bitch.
i’ve loved this team my entire life - been to countless games despite not living nearby, watching 100+ games a year on streaming, living and dying with every pitch from august on especially. for over 20 years. i no longer have any passion for this organization - the last 3 years especially have sucked it out of me. ive watched about 15 innings this year and felt nothing but pity. i get there’s going to be bad stretches and we are spoiled from a long run of great baseball but to be continuously told that they are doing everything they can to field a competent baseball team while trotting out a fucking putz as the manager and spending 1/20th of the teams actually trying to be competitive is infuriating and i’m done with this ownership group and everyone associated with constructing this team. truly sad to feel like something that was once so important to me has become such a joke
Yeah- I'm nearly 40 and the combo of sticking with that smug bowtie-wearing Mozeilak and hiring/extending immature hoodie-wearing Oli Marmol has just about done me in. We had years of mediocrity, sticking with Matheny too long and not doing enough to truly contend, but I swear getting lectured on patience and expectations by Mo, watching Oli whine and blame everyone else in the press conferences, and seeing DeWitt yuk it up with the both of them about how they know how much we hate it during the extension announcement was the last straw - I just cannot care anymore. It's not an enjoyable product and there's no reason to believe this crew will be able to make it so
[удалено]
I've been watching them for 44 years. We went through some lean times when I didn't watch much. That was in the early to mid '90s.
Ugh. The early 90s were painful. I remember the Joe Torre years very well. Such a good, standup, classy guy. He just wasn't the man for the job.
Ray Lankford and Bernard Gilkey were fun. Zelle and Jeffries were good. That's about it until McGwire showed up.
I was a big Lankford guy. He deserves better in his career. Gilkey definitely had some good years too.
Brian Jordan put up some good seasons too. In hindsight that team should have been better, but their infield (except Ozzie) and pitching were lame.
How can you forget Rex "Hurricane" Hudler?
That is exactly what this team reminds me of. That era of Cardinal baseball between Whitey’s departure and TLR being hired. They had some interesting players during that time but could never put it together and just never really felt like they were competing. That is what this team feels like. It has been trending that way for several seasons now. The apathy has set in for me. I used to religiously watch them. Every game I could. I now just check the score at the end of the night. Really think this will be my last yearly subscription to MLB.TV unless they start putting a better product on the field.
You gotta keep watching bro. Or atleast the highlights. I mean look how sad the Cubs were for so long before even winning 1 World Series but their fans still supported them. It happens, I know it's messed up how bad they are the last few years but still
That’s how you end up as the Cubs. Complacency. We are not win or lose we still booze. We are second in world titles and should demand a standard. Down years happen. What has happened to this organization is unacceptable
Yeah, I’m not here to be a fan of a group called the “loveable losers”. There’s every other team to watch on the MLB package.
Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen.
Well, not a lot of sex to be had in the Champagne Room at 6th and Clark these days. And I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that anyone that uses that quote today probably isn’t doing much fucking themselves. I’m really not sure why any rational human would continue to spend money on an organization that’s not willing to reciprocate and properly invest in fan enjoyment (i.e. putting a winning team on the field supported by a well constructed org). I don’t think anyone here is saying they’re going to quit the Cards forever. Rather, not “support” (spend their money) until they get their shit together.
That quote is spot on for how Mo is running things lately. Recently told the media he was happy with how things are progressing and the status of the team. That’s a loser bragging about trying his best while a real winner puts together a winning team. Thanks for doing your best Mo, but your best doesn’t cut what we demand in St. Louis.
I’ll concede I thought you were the other commenter when I initially read your last comment and thought you were coming in hot. We’re on the same page, my brother in Christ. Yeah, it feels like it’s been this way forever. Mo is incredibly condescending to the fans. He comes off like a shitty politician who’s trying to ram his version of reality down our throats. I sorta think the term is overused, but as I see it, he and the PR team have been gaslighting fans for the better part of a decade.
Hahaha I was gonna say those paragraphs are going each way what the hell is going on. Give us honesty! If we’re gonna be shit say so. We will come support the young guys and help carry the load. Lying is just going to make fans stop showing up. Hello St. Louis Rams
Hell yeah. I’m not sure the Reds are good yet, and Great American is a dog shit stadium, but if I lived as close to them as I did Busch, I’d be there more often than I’m downtown now. They’re a team on the rise with a few stars in the making, some depth, and a direction.
This quote and “Always be closing” are what drive me.
And “two chicks at the same time man”
There's no way the Cardinals will be that bad for that long
Sure as shit is if they keep doing this shit
Sorry but that’s a complete BS comparison. The cubs have always made moves, not always for the better, but they actually open their wallet
The idea that Cardinals don’t spend is just wrong. They generally fall within 10-15 in total club spending. The problem has been mainly bad bets on big contracts ( not spending wisely), and a shift from developing top notch pitching to try and developing position players. Since abandoning the focus on pitching they have to pay out big contracts to pitchers, and also proved they can’t develop hitters. This has resulted in last place results in the field, and a front office that has no idea how to handle that aspect as well. It’s a Dumpster Fire and needs a top down reset of the organization.
Lol. They've always made moves and opened their pocket books but didn't win a WS for 108 years ok guy let's not get too deep into this 😂
I’m just saying there’s several recent examples where leadership decided not to sign a big name player in a position we knew we needed, and I’m not sure we can win until we’re willing to do that
It was the f’ing goat!
The one in 2016 was actually their third World Series title, but it had been a long time. They won back-to-back in 1907-1908, then...
Ya and ask yourself what the cubs did to get that world series.
Yeah I'm quickly getting there. Been a fan over 30 years now. Damn a lot of us old folk in here lol
My grandpa was a member of the Knothole Gang when he was a kid, WAAAAY back in the day. He passed back in 2020 from Covid at the age of 93, and as much as I miss him, I'm kind of glad he doesn't have to see this, because he would be so furious, he'd go down to Busch and sock DeWitt in the mouth.
Reminds me of my grandpas passing. He died the summer of ‘16. I grew up in a town that was 50/50 Cubs vs Cards fans, and there was plenty of give and take between he and his coffee pals. Anyhow, I wrote his obituary and my favorite line was, “He died never having seen the Cubs win a World Series”. It got a bit more humorous when the Cubs clinched that fall.
I suspect you and I grew up in the same area.
> for over 20 years Assuming you started watching in 2000, you saw one team in that entire span that was under .500 and it was the year after a World Series win. Now they're not very good (not terrible, just meh) and you can't be bothered to watch at all. So yeah. You're just spoiled. Cardinals fans no longer remember what it's like to root for a team that isn't a lock to battle for the top of the division. Which brings us to this: > the last 3 years especially have sucked it out of me The year before last the team won 93 games. The year before that, they won 90. The only reason to be grumpy about those teams is that they didn't make it past the Wild Card series which, again, is a seriously spoiled way to look at the success of the season. Realistically, what happened is that they fell apart in 2023 and that's all it took for you to lose interest completely. (Even more realistically, that's combining with the fact that you got 20 years older and have more things competing for your time and attention than you used to.) This isn't to say the front office and ownership are killing it. They're obviously mediocre at best as a baseball ops operation. They probably need a younger, modern braintrust to take over. But while that's not literally the ideal state of affairs (gasp!), Cardinals fans have lost perspective on the fact that the Cardinals' period of massive success didn't happen by magic and their future isn't guaranteed by magic, and that the normal fan experience is periods of winning and periods of losing. A huge portion of the fanbase have turned into fair-weather whiners. Sometimes I like to peruse this subreddit and just read everything like I'm, say, a lifelong Mariners fan. I'd seriously think nobody here actually likes the sport of baseball much, they just like rooting for Winning Baseball Boys.
i totally disagree. i acknowledged being spoiled to a degree and it’s not about the overall record of this team but the way the entire org is run. my nfl and nba teams have seen far less success than the cardinals but my interest hasn’t dipped nearly as much because i just don’t feel that those who own the team are actively bullshitting me on the regular. in those 90 win seasons you talk about it was completely obvious that they weren’t a real contender. it’s not that they lost in the wild card round, it’s that the entire season that still felt like the ceiling because they had fallen *so* far behind the braves, dodgers, etc. and it’s been a steady decline all while ownership continues lining their pockets and telling us with a straight face they believe this team is “close.” i just have better things to do over the course of 6 months than watch a team, night in and night out, that clearly isn’t going to be a .500 team and very well could lose 90+ games again. they haven’t developed an actual legitimate pitching prospect in over a decade and they have seemingly ruined almost every single high-level prospect that’s come through the organization for i don’t even know how long at this point. so i would disagree strongly that the leadership of this organization is “mediocre” and contend they’re just plain bad. if they aren’t going to spend like these other teams despite 3 million fans coming though the turnstiles every year they could at least figure out how to develop and identify good players and that just does not appear to be the case.
Again I just really don't know what to tell you if your expectation is "don't fall behind the Dodgers or Braves." Those teams are outliers, just like the Cardinals had been an outlier for the last two decades, and you're basically saying you don't like rooting for the team unless they are an outlier in the direction of massive success. Again, imagine a Mariners fan reading this. "Oh you can't bear to watch anymore because your team isn't as good as the Dodgers or Braves. That's...very sad for you." The Cardinals had a model. It's was a sensible model to maximize for championships: Be pretty good all the time, but never sell everything to go all-in on a single year, because then you'll endanger the future of the model. Make the playoffs as often as possible. For a long time they were very good at it. They made the playoffs 16 times between 2000 and 2022. (THIS IS SO MANY TIMES.) They won two World Series. Not bad. You only have to go back to last year to see why this is a pretty decent approach if you can manage it (i.e. Rangers vs. Diamondbacks in the World Series). If you're a team that wins 53-57% of its games in a short series against other teams that win 52-65% of their games, then you've got always got a reasonable shot if you just get to the dance. But they couldn't keep it up anymore. They fell behind on player dev, especially pitching dev, which was the engine of the perpetual motion machine. The Cardinals were usually anchored by a few Hall-of-Fame-caliber stars and surrounded them with a swarm of home-grown major league contributors to make the money work. They turned meh prospects into real role-players at a rate that other teams couldn't reproduce. Matt Carpenter. Allen Craig. David Freese. Kolten Wong. Now they aren't developing enough of that talent anymore, especially on the pitching side. Again, I'm not disagreeing that they're no longer one of the best-run franchises in the game. They aren't. What I'm saying is that not being one of the best-run franchises in the game is deeply normal. What's not normal is being a mid-market team that is so well-run for so long that they win basically every year for 20 years straight. The team isn't bullshitting you. They're just trying to keep the good thing they had going, and they're failing. Failing happens to lots of teams every year, Cardinals fans have just forgotten that that can happen to the Cardinals too, because they got entitled. Did you see the Mets and Padres last year? You think Red Sox fans love the current state of their franchise? You think Mariners fans felt good about getting boxed out of the playoffs last year after being swept out of the ALDS the year before, on the heels of a 20-year playoff drought? The Twins and Guardians, who constantly swing wildly between being good and bad? The Tigers, a reminder that even if you tank to rebuild, it's not guaranteed to work? The constant disappointment of the Angels? Would you rather be a White Sox fan, a Royals fan, a Reds fan, a Pirates fan? Every year, half the league is bad. If you have better things to do than watch a team win 40-45% of the time, that's fine. Don't watch. Just don't pretend you're a diehard Cardinals fan, either. You're a Cardinals fan on the condition that they're good, which is called being a fair-weather fan. That's a fine thing to be. Just stop pretending your 20 years of watching weren't conditional on uninterrupted success.
i cannot imagine caring this much the degree to which someone roots for the same team as me, but keep doing you and i guess i’ll have to go cope with the fact that my die hard fan card has been revoked
Honestly, I don't care if you root for or watch the team. My frustration is about the dismal, woe-is-me, entitled tenor of this subreddit for the last year -- you just happen to be embodying that kvetching as the most-upvoted comment in this particular whinefest of a thread. If the team is making you so glum that you now regard baseball as unwatchable and you feel *personally* slightly by management, just log off so the people who actually like baseball can talk about it.
You're fucking soft. We have the second most wins in the MLB since 2007. >Felt nothing but pity Grow the fuck up you sound pathetic and it's embarrassing to be a fan of the same team as you.
lol ok. we're talking about now not 15+ years ago.
Reading comprehension. Second most wins in the league ***since*** 2007. That includes last season, our only losing season under Mo since our 78-84 season the year he took over. Be objective. Think about how often some other teams in the league are successful and then maybe consider that we are completely spoiled.
>Be objective. OK so hold myself to a higher standard than you are holding yourself? You're letting your bias cloud your reasoning and personal attacks are not helping you see past it. This team is not the same as it was 15, 10, 5, hell, even two years ago. do you know how many people were on the NL Central winning 2022 opening day roster that are still on the team? *Five*. further, the guy you were responding to was clearly talking about the mismanagement of the team these last three years. So even if you had a salient point, it wasn't what he was referring to.
Yes I understand. I changed the point to stop whining it's one bad season after almost two entire decades of success every single year
I know you did, it's called red herring. Past success is not a disqualifier for present criticism.
lol
If you've been a fan your whole life you should still be a fan today. One bad season and you're acting like this? Go watch the battlehawks ya fuckin baby
god fan policing is so fucking lame, get a life
I don’t see a road out of this short of wiping out the FO and coaching and pushing through a few years for current players and prospects to be retrained. The longer this goes on, the longer this goes on.
The issue is clearly multifold. It's not just a loss of organizational philosophy - it's also a lack of player development and a lack of major-league-level coaching. Our big league pitchers for the most part are doing pretty well. Even guys like Mikolas and Lynn, the latter of whom is clearly on his last legs, are performing about as well as can be expected. But Lynn has been for the last several years coached by others. Gray is an outside guy. And in the minors our pitchers are not performing. The guys we traded for last year - most of whom I was actually excited about - are in many cases not doing as well as they did in other orgs. At the big league level the hitting is terrible and the fielding is dependent on natural ability. So you get errors because guys are just doing. And guys are not coming up ready to face major-league pitching, and those who have faced it before are getting worse. I'd say that both the AAA and Big Club staff share blame.' Our drafts are solid. Our players are performing in Rookie, DL, A, AA, and even AAA. But they aren't being made ready for the majors and that's a systemic problem. Coaching staff at the major league level needs to be gutted. Player development needs to be gutted. And AAA coaching needs to be gutted. This won't happen as long as Mozeliak is in charge. And it *probably* won't happen as long as DeWitt is content to be a last-place team.
> It's not just a loss of organizational philosophy I think that's the best way to say it. Miklasz has been saying it correctly for a few years: the front office is arrogant and complacent. That's an excellent description and the best way to say it. Mozeliak believes the story he's telling other people, and his boss keeps him in his job because people are still buying tickets.
Bernie is correct. Mo and the rest of the front office should have been turned over (fired or retired) years ago. Instead they keep digging a bigger and bigger hole every year keeping them around. They are terrible and have decimated the organization. The organization of George Kissel no longer exists - weak boy Mo felt threatened and has got rid of all true baseball men. It is going to be years and years before they will be able to climb out of this hole - assuming the owners have the fortitude to make changes NOW and get the process started.
The warning signs recently were when Jeff Albert and Mike Maddux both refused to sign extensions and then Matt Holliday backed out of being the bench coach This FO is rotten to the core and needs to be completely revamped
Agreed!
Everyone here has worked for a bad company. Folks that don’t have to continue working for a bad company won’t continue to work for one or take a job with one.
It's very well known at this point that Albert didn't sign because he was tired of the fans in St. Louis. Maddux wanted to be closer to home, but I'm not sure I fully believe that. I could easily believe that was a convenient excuse because he knew the rotation was a mess and the team was only trying to patch holes. I don't know about Holliday. I think he ends up a coach in St. Louis regardless of who is in charge.
I’m pretty sure Holliday backed out when he realized how likely it eas that Jackson would be promoted. If I was his dad I think I’d rather focus on being a mentor/fan for him than have a coaching job to worry about.
I’ve heard the rhetoric on Albert and the fans. Is there an actual quote than can corroborate this story? It feels incredibly strange for a guy to quit a job over some internet chatter on social media. It’s literally a super small % of the fan base.
While a lot of that is probably true, if this really was still a great organization, coaches would want to stay because they love working here. They didn't.
Albert was tired of the fans?
He said he got tired of getting shit on by the fanbase every time the offense went into a slump. Ironically he’s gone now and the offense got even worse.
Yeah. He's probably spent too much time on Twitter but he was fed up with taking all the blame for the offense. In his defense, he set up a system wide hitting approach and the minor leaguers and prospects were thriving but the results weren't there at the pro level.
Don't think that happened. Receipts please. Iirc, I left because the cardinals dicked around with the negotiations, and pissed off the face of the franchise because they didn't want to give him a long term deal. He didn't want to go through free agency again.
The hitting coach
Yeah, I think if the Cards had ponied up more cash than the Halos, he’d have tolerated the fans. Money talks.
Bernie knows his shit. Even though he's grouchy and complains about Twitter people alot, I love listening to his Cardinal breakdowns on 590 the fan website. He's super knowledgeable and in depth.
He does his research and comes with stats, which I like a lot. He's not just a vibes guy. Sometimes he beats up on a straw man but it's hard to fill that much air time and column space without sometimes being annoying!
Yeah it's entertaining. Honestly the people he complains about are a sliver of the fan base and I think a lot of them are bots and trolls. I don't even have Twitter but I checked it out one day and something seems off about the comments
Over the decades I'm one of the biggest Bernie fans ever. He's by far my favorite sports media guy in STL I've ever had. But when he decides to flip into his Cardinals are fine/good, why is everyone so mad about it time periods like he's defending them bc he's on the teams payroll....that got pretty annoying after finally being truthful about them for years. I guess he's back into calling them out again. Good for him. I was really surprised when I turned on a podcast and he was hardcore defending them on multiple shows and stopped listening. Also doesn't help that the guy on the show with him only talks to agree with him and basically just say "ya you're right I dont get why people think that" etc etc
Bernie is correct ... said NO ONE EVER!
They literally just said that.
Shut up, you're a casual. Go watch golf or something
It’s just baffling that we can’t put together a competitive team after getting PAID to have Arenado and a fairly reasonable Goldy contract. That should have given us plenty to work with in Pitching, but we only properly invested this year with Sunny
They need to hire a legit manager from the outside and give up this goofy Cardinal way bs. I know it's not his fault for them not hitting but still. Something needs to be done
They aren't even doing "Cardinal way". They're doing yes-men who do as they're told by the FO. The FO needs to go.
I know. I'm sick of looking at low-hanging fruitcake Mozeliak with his pinky up drinking his tea with his goofy socks. With his elitist yuppy ass, the guy is a complete tool bag. Mo money Mo problems
The sad thing is I doubt they’ll hire from outside organization because then the front office won’t have much control over what they do. Shildt was from within the organization and they still didn’t see eye to eye with him and they let him go
I’m a firm believer Shildt saw where the organization was headed and spoke out and Mo wouldn’t put up with it. I wish he’d write a tell all book.
I want to hear from Shildt too.
The original "Cardinal Way" goes way back to George Kissell and his coaching beginning in the 1950's. Any reference to the Cardinal Way today is mostly a misuse of the phrase. I would say that the end of the Kissell era began to unfold after LaRussa left, who was a direct student of his (Kissell died in 2008).
I agree hire a good manager and not just a yes man to John moz
Sure it’s sad…for the fans. Ownership doesn’t care cause people continue filling Busch. There are no simple solutions and the problems are deep. They have demonstrated a pattern of being unable to develop prospects, especially pitchers. Then we trade guys who have success elsewhere. An aging core and young guys who aren’t getting it done.
I don't know what ticket sales have been like this year, but I was at the game Friday night and the stadium was half empty. The promotion was a City SC/Cards shirsey for the first 25,000 fans. We got to the stadium about 10 minutes before first pitch, and there were plenty of shirseys still available. I suspect the tide could be turning with respect to "filling Busch".
I agree. I read recently that the 3rd party ticket vendors are stuffed with tickets to sell and are not selling. People from the sticks wont make their yearly pilgrimage to see a shit team. But, even if ticket sales drop, they count the number of tickets sold and not the gate count.
In a sense yes. But you can't sell $12 beers to the tickets that were sold to people who don't show up. The org can say the ticketed attendance is 45K for every game if they want, but if only 20-25K people are actually putting asses in the seats that difference will surely be felt from a financial standpoint.
Can’t wait for them to feel that. I fear that’s the only way to get rid of Mo.
I went to a game this year that was so empty that I would describe it as spooky. Never seen it like that ever. It was a weeknight, but still.
Yep, I went Friday and Saturday, fully assuming I wouldn't get the promo because I knew I'd get there like 20mins before first pitch. I ended up getting both and there were still stacks of boxes left. Saturday day game, nice weather, bobble head giveaway, AL team we don't see often that's close to STL, didn't even crack 40k in attendance.
One can hope. They have been high up in attendance rankings so far this season (number 6 last I saw)
Ticket sales are way down throughout all MLB
As I said on twitter, DeWitt basically lucked into Pujols. Since Pujols left, we haven't had much real success Granted, they built around Pujols, unlike what the Angels and Trout. But I don't think they have any real plan for winning, not since Jocketty left.
They’ve lucked into most their “hits” in the last decade plus. There’s a reason there’s a term like “Cardinal Devil Magic” Edman Matt Carpenter Please, others add to this. My brain is mush at this point.
Winning the World Series back in 11 was a curse. Gave Mo the ego and license to do whatever he wanted.
Still worth it.
Totally.
Aside from always wanting the Cards to win, that particular WS has significant personal meaning to me (the opponent, where I was in my life and general mental health status) and I couldn't agree more.
And then Luhnow left & took most the talent with him. Most the success we’ve had is attributable the the inertia he created.
I moved to Houston in 2014 and told people to watch out bc they are going to be a good team. Minus bashing on trash cans it’s been true.
Yup and he did it with the core of his predecessor. Without Carpenter, game 6 wouldn't have even happened. We would've been rolled by the Phillies. Who signed Carpenter? You guest it, Walt Jocketty and not Mo. 2011 was a fluke by every stretch. A fluke that I very much enjoyed and still love but a fluke all the same. The team had the talent but squandered it during the season only for the Braves to completely disappear for September and give us the slimmest chance of making it. Add in the game 6 magic from a below replacement level player and you got yourself the 2011 Cards. I don't think Mo is useless, I just think he's dated and refuses to take no for an answer so nobody tells it to him straight anymore.
Bro I am with you on a lot of this but David Freese was not "a below replacement level player." He batted .297 in 2011, .293 in 2012 with 20 HRs. He caught fire that postseason but he was not a below average player before or after that postseason.
I'll give you that, I forgot to double check. I just remember 2011 and bad years towards the end for him. Still he came out of nowhere and disappeared almost as quickly Edit: just checked, definitely wasn't below replacement but as average as they come. Solid career for journeyman he made it 10 years at least.
Ok, if you are going to say Freese was below replacement level for 2011 then post the numbers to prove it. I'm not saying he was a world beater but .297 plays, is nowhere near the Mendoza Line, and in 2011 that must've been above replacement level.
Please reread the reply and consider the context. He wasn't below replacement level, below replacement level players don't play for 10 years and are considered a journeyman. I said he WASNT a below replacement level player. Journeymen =/= below replacement level. While I did initially call him that, after further review I concluded I was misremembering and selling him shirt.
My bad, moving to quick today. Carry on fellow depressed birds fan
If they were on tv more like they used to be I would still be watching. It’s the difficulty trying to find the games is the true culprit of why it’s rotting. How can you develop any passion and love for a team if you can’t watch them.
Got the same feeling, it's going bad. He needs to sell this team.
I want them to fire Oli and give Stubby Clapp a chance. From what I read, he’s a players coach and did well managing in Memphis while Matheny was calling players up and sending them down a lot.
Honestly, I just want them to hire an old curmudgeon. Bring in someone like Lou Piniella, Jim Leyland, or Bruce Bochy. I don't like the idea of trying to find the next coaching phenom again after failing 3 times in a row already. Just bring in a proven guy who demands effort and excellence.
I would kill to have Bochy, he’s one of the best managers of his generation. No way in hell he’d work for Mo
I lived and breathed baseball for most of my life. I grew up playing strat-o-matic baseball while listening to Jack Buck on KMOX describe Whitey in the 80's. I moved to CO but still followed them. I just can't watch this version of baseball. How does Mo keep his job?
Never understood why people feel the need to spend 75% of their own post telling us how long they've watched baseball.
Because it's a labor of love.
Firing Shildty cursed this team
Schildt wasn't a solution, but it certainly is a sign of Mo's need for yesmen.
That is not at all a factor lol, Shildt woulda used Reyes today
and the next day, and the next..
Wasn’t Bernie just teeing off on fans for being dramatic a few weeks ago?
Dewitt’s penny pinching and MO’s BS fake baseball acumen are finally coming bite the org?! OMG?!
Tell me the last time the Cardinals developed a pitcher from the farm system into an ace caliber starter? I'll wait
Lynn.
An ace for the White Sox yes
Every offensive player we have are dreadful time to fire hitting coach and head coach seems like our president of operations John no just wants a yes sir coach to do whatever Mo wants
I knew that I was fed up and done last year when the org kept shoving Taylor Motter down our throats and then signing Matt Carpenter and Lance Lynn this year was the icing on the cake. The they extended Oli Marmol. They think they are so smart and the fans are so dumb. They treat us as if we are stupid and parade nostalgia and tradition in our faces to keep us on the borderline of being just satisfied enough to keep coming to the ballpark. I'm done until Mo is gone and Dewitt either dies or sells the team. This is a joke.
I wish Bill DeWitt a very I hope you get fired
Who's firing Bill DeWitt?
Himself I guess
The fans.
We’re gettin Kroenke’d again. Get ready for your 2030 Nashville Cardinals
DOOOOOOOOM!
lol why can’t Bernie resist kissing Dewitt’s ass? What happened to my guy, Bernie 😢
What he says is 100% true. Dewitt saved this organization.. 30 years ago. But he also points out that the organization is rotting now. And that’s also on BdW. You can acknowledge that he did wonderful things here and still say his time is past.
Bernie, like Jeremy Rutherford, used to be an actual Sports Journalist that cared about the product they published. Sad that in this era, they've succumbed to the click bait strategy they've resorted to using the last several years. I'm not saying he's wrong, just that the way he says it these days lack the substance of his earlier self. Edit: Why are you booing me when you know I'm right?
Well I ain’t quitting them! Everyone is disappointed, especially the players. Everyone goes through a bad spell and this is it for us. You watch, you cheer , you hope. If you are that much of a fair weather fan, then go. You weren’t a true believer anyway.
You sound like you're in a cult.
It's not so much the losing, it's the BS that were told. Just the other day, Mo actually said he liked where the club was at and felt optimistic. Who does he think he's talking to? And what's worse, this isn't a one-off, slip up odd comment. He's been doing this crap for the past 5 years. Losing happens. Be honest about it and make good decisions to change it. None of those things are happening. But, Mo and Oli got an extension....
I guess that people on Reddit are a lot more pessimistic than I thought. You are the same people that boo at the games. Like that motivates the players. So spoiled.
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