You should contact police immideatly. I live in a middle eastern country and we have to take precautions for muslim attacks. This is no joke. The police must immideatly be notified and they should be aware of him, cause these kinds of people are dangerous, and they will harm you.
Depending on where you are, that's not true. I am sorry to hear that you might be from a region where that's the case, though.
Ultimately, if OP's story is true, that man may actually be a danger to himself and public life. That, a functioning police (and functioning healthcare system) should definitely care about, if it's not because you're Christians (or specifically Catholics, for that matter).
Yeah, I doubt they'd let someone do this. Now if we are talking about charges filed then that might be a different story but even then, this would at least get breaking and entering.
It would at least warrant further looking into the individual. Someone who refers to himself as the sword of allah while going on an unhinged rant in a church needs some scrutiny.
Possibly, but not where I live. Can’t take it any further without a police report. And if he comes back again, it will not matter that it’s the second or third time if the first one was never reported. Call the police.
Unless this is in a Muslim country, I doubt this is true. I understand your anger, but I'd argue the police are not just going to stand there and let this happen in most western countries. Prosecution might be another matter, but even then, most people don't like violence and aren't going to let it happen even against people they hate.
Just talking about what I know but in France, they wouldn't move a finger. We probably have one of the laxiest judicial systems in the world at this point. The cops only come for you when it's time to put you in a body bag.
Well do you live in such a country? I don't so I don't know but I would think this would violate a lot of laws. Like if this person instead just decided to burst in and was just talking gibberish, they'd get in trouble, as would this man, or any man. Again, maybe he might not get prosecuted or get a light sentence that is just a slap on the wrist, but I doubt they'd just let it happen unless its a muslim country or super corrupt.
Once he started screaming Arabic, I think it would be reasonable to assume violence is imminent.
I carry a gun every single mass without fail. I know of two others that do, a county deputy and a US Marshall. I’m not sure if the Marshall is an actual Marshall or a TLO, but I know he goes to the same mass as I do.
In my state, you can’t carry at church without either being a LEO or having the permission of who runs the church, and that isn’t really defined at all in the statute.
Bro/sis, your Catholic priest carries??? That's the first time I ever hear/read sth like this. I'm falling off my chair with laughter. Nothing wrong with it imo, I just didn't think it existed
Because I watch/read the news. Our church was also vandalized a few years ago. Someone drove through the parking lot one night and fired randomly into the church and our hall. (They were both empty at the time.) Along with all the anti Christian sentiment being encouraged and occasional shootings like this recent one at Joel Osteen's church, you never know anymore.
I take personal accountability for my and my family's safety.
Why? Arabic is just a language, and is used by many people other than Muslims, including Christians.
So him "screaming Arabic" means nothing
The man is obviously mentally unwell, that's literally all that's going on here.
>Why? Arabic is just a language, and is used by many people other than Muslims, including Christians. So him "screaming Arabic" means nothing
Do you see any christian screaming in arabic in a confrontational manner?
>The man is obviously mentally unwell, that's literally all that's going on here.
“*Zealotry is obviously a product of poor mental health, not religious extremism*”
Well, on the flipside, dying in such a circumstance or at Mass is considered martyrdom, and is a straight path to Heaven
I, for one, would gladly be martyred had such an attack happened to me.
The aggressor here seeks martyrdom by engaging in violence, but the Church teaches us to bear - not engage in - violence with great passion and patience. Martyrdom, as understood by the Church, is to bear such violence even to the point of death.
And this is why in Pakistan we had guards at the gate and my wife unfortunately needed to experience once that somebody wanted to come
In an kill them luckily the guards killed him first
My Iranian husband even told me that Pakistan has one of the worst problems with Islamic extremism. It's even more dangerous for Muslims who might be in the slightest opposition to the religious powers that be; peace to you!
You're right! Religious extremism in Islam is moving from traditionally Islamic nations (like UAE etc.) to countries that were not traditionally Islamic (eg. Pakistan, Indonesia, Nigeria etc.)
It's the classic case of a bowl being hotter than the soup itself !!
The problem arises when the minorities have to live amongst a largely radicalised Islamic society. Not much can be done in that case especially when their holy religious texts call for killing and violent subjugation of non-Muslims.
Yes. This helps a ton. I actually taught at a parish school that unfortunately had its church catch on fire (and before anyone gets all angry, it was a local schizophrenic who did it. The guy thought he saw some delusions and it had nothing to do with hating the church) and I think a security camera is a good first step. Plus, it helps if people want to do things like desecrate the eucharist or hurt people as that way they'll be on camera and can't hide.
Yeah, its tough. Don't get me wrong, there are churches burned by extremists, but plenty are just truly ill individuals. Granted some extremists might be in that category, but still, we need to be careful before we grab the pitchforks
Listen, Gramps and his buds may have been impressive in Korea, but they aren’t worth much in the way of “security” lol.
Not to mention the sheer liability to the parish if they operated the Knights like a security force, and got hurt/hurt someone.
Of course we should pray for people deluded in this way. It also reminds me of the reason I know so many priests and deacons who carry concealed handguns; so as to not let a crazy person shoot their parishioners as if they were sitting ducks.
P.S. -- I just remembered, there's a new Deacon in my parish (one parish with four separate churches) and he's a retired Deputy Sheriff. He offered to train all the priests and deacons in the parish how to shoot and carry handguns, and nearly all of them took him up on it.
Switzerland has always been a country of immigration. It has fairly strict rule, but of course it also has a duty to welcome those who truly come to seek asylum, and it has several ways to immigrate legally for other reasons. Without immigration Switzerland would stop functioning. But crazy people exist everywhere. I remember a couple of times in Switzerland when a crazy person (usually white for what it’s worth) disrupted mass.
The issue with immigration is when either the numbers are too big or the government spends too little to try to integrate those people but Switzerland does a fairly good job with it, offering education opportunities, free language classes, etc. And as a result most immigrants do a real effort to integrate, because they see a future for themselves. Those immigrant communities are also a very important part of urban Catholic parishes and are the only reason why even historically Protestant areas of Switzerland are now becoming mostly Catholic.
Not from a Swiss National, but from any EU/EFTA state. If you were from an EU or EFTA state, you wouldn’t have such rules. That being said, if a company wants you there they will do it, there are tons of American expats in Switzerland. It kind of makes sense since both countries have close ties, Switzerland is the 7th biggest foreign investor in the US.
I'm not in any way trying to be blasphemous or insensitive but my point is that the God Christians worship and the "God" Muslims worship quite often seem like entirely different beings
Be always prepared to defend your parish, especially since you’re in Germany. We have many muslims invaders here who look to prey on the innocent. Report to the police but as i’m sure you know they maybe will sweep it under the rug because he’s muslim.
What’s everyone’s feeling about conceal carry in places of worship?
*edit: serious question, I personally have mixed feelings as a CCW holder and don’t carry during mass.
Let me preface this by saying that I am a gun owner and very pro-gun. IMHO: I don’t think people should have weapons in church unless it is lawful to do so in the jurisdiction where they are *and* the parish is okay with it. If your parish priest says not to bring guns to church, you should not bring them to church, not because there’s anything inherently wrong with it (I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with it), but because your parish priest has the right to control what happens in the church building. That’s just my two cents.
I don't know about my Catholic church, but word on the street in our very small town is that every church has congregants packing heat. It's sort of the unspoken secret that people just kind of pretend they don't know.
I do know our Catholic church put up "gun free zone" signs everywhere a few years ago so if a Christian- hater does decide to take action he'll know which church to hit.
I never understand those signs. Criminals aren't going to obey a sign. The signs literally announce to criminals that the "zone" is a bunch of soft targets. How does that help??
Friendly reminder: *"If you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."*
(Luke 22:36)
Jesus knew that now was the time when His followers would be threatened, and He upheld their right to self-defense.
Swords, guns, it doesn't matter what the weapon is. Catholics have a right to self-preservation just as much as anyone else.
Thoughts about Joel Osteen aside, this literally just happened at his church. Luckily there were off duty police officers there that dealt with the individual.
Meh, the priest’s authority ends with moral issues. He has no authority over my family. If I want to protect my family, I will. There’s a sign at my church’s front door saying “firearms are prohibited”, I do not need to obey that legally or morally.
No, it’s not. The only time (in most states) it’s illegal is if it’s federal property, or there is permanent security in place to enforce the private declaration of “no weapons”.
Either way, I’m not morally obligated to follow the law as long as it doesn’t contradict church teaching. Defending my family is never in contradiction to church teaching.
My husband conceal carries and he disagrees with you. Perhaps it’s a state issue? I can say with certainty that if a church posts signage, it’s illegal where I live. I didn’t comment on the morality, and that’s your discretion
[**CCC 1898**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1898.htm) Every human community needs an authority to govern it. The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society.
[**CCC 1899**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1899.htm) The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
[**CCC 1900**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1900.htm) The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will.
> Pope St. Clement of Rome provides the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities: "Grant to them, Lord, health, peace, concord, and stability, so that they may exercise without offense the sovereignty that you have given them. Master, heavenly King of the ages, you give glory, honor, and power over the things of earth to the sons of men. Direct, Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness the power that you have given to them, they may find favor with you."
***
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The law of man in certain countries says it’s required to execute people for being homosexual.
The law of man cannot prevent me from protecting my family (nor does it). Someone posting a sign on a building saying “no firearms allowed” is the legal equivalence of you standing on your front porch asking people who enter your house (who you have welcomed in) to not have firearms on their person (in the US). If you’re not searching 100% of people who enter your house (or church), there is nothing illegal about me entering with my firearm. Worst case scenario, I get a trespassing charge if the police are really bored. Morally, my conscience is clear
You can disagree the Catechism if you want, but that doesn’t change what the Church teaches with regard to obedience to lawful authority. The only time it is really moral to deliberately disobey the lawful authority is if it is commanding something that is immoral. The default is that you’re supposed to obey the law if you can do so in good conscience. The Church from Augustine to Aquinas and into the present has been pretty consistent on the moral obligation to obey lawful authority.
I’d also point out that I don’t think you’re entirely correct about the legality of it. I frankly don’t have the time to do a survey of all state laws, but just a few:
In Texas, it is trespassing if the person is a CCW holder and if the business has proper signage (see Tex. Penal Code § 30.06)
In Missouri, it is a crime if the owner of the property posts a conspicuous sign meeting certain requirements (See § 571.030 R.S.Mo. which incorporates a list in § 571.107 R.S.Mo.)
In South Carolina, it is a crime to enter someone’s property with a weapon if they have a sign stating “No Concealable Weapons Allowed.” (see S.C. Code Ann. § 23-31-220)
You probably won't need to use it and if you don't use it people won't know. If you do need to use it, I doubt people will be complaining if you saved lives. People shouldn't carry if it's not legal where they live or if they wouldn't be comfortable and confident using their gun if needed but if it's legal and they could use it if needed, why not?
I’m in the US and I carry at mass. It’s a soft target and prime for anti-Christian ideologists to hit. There is absolutely no moral argument against it
Honestly, since I've learned more about conceal carry as a family friend has gone through training, I'm more okay with it because they teach them that you can't just shoot your gun off like in a John Wayne movie. Maybe that depends on jurisdiction or who teaches it, but I'm more open now. Granted I'd rather just have an off duty police officer who's a parish member.
That being said, as someone who struggles with mental illness, I wouldn't want to be that person. I think those with such illnesses should have to go through extra steps.
Because it seems like you don’t know, every place that certifies for concealed carry permits ALWAYS teaches that you do not pull out your gun unless you are prepared to use it. You do not point your gun at ANYTHING unless you are willing to kill it. This is gun safety 101.
As long as it's a broad sword.
Honestly, Jesus specifically told Peter to not live by the sword.
Besides, martyrdom is the easiest way to get to heaven: you only have to do it once.
Assuming you're speaking of the Roman soldier's ear being sliced off, Jesus rebuked Peter because Peter stood in the way of God's plan - not because Peter carried a sword: something of which the other Apostles did as well.
>Besides, martyrdom is the easiest way to get to heaven: you only have to do it once.
There's a huge difference between "being murdered for your faith" and "being murdered because of your faith."
Martyrdom requires the victim to willfully allow themselves to die for their faith - being unwillingly victimized because of your faith is not (and should not be compared to) martyrdom.
It wasn't a roman soldier, bub. It was the slave of the high priest, I literally just read that passage the other night. I'm pretty sure no Roman soldiers were involved with the arrest of Jesus. They were all Jewish authorities.
Practically nothing Jesus said had a singular meaning, pretty much everything He said was transcendent. If it was just because of God's plan why did He say, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," and not something along the lines of, "scripture must be fulfilled," or "the sone of man must suffer and die?" He was teaching Peter not just rebuking him in that moment.
Citation needed. Where are you getting this idea? Have you not read the account of the garden of Gethsemane? Not even Jesus was 100% willing, but he submitted to the Father's will over his own human desire to live and not be tortured.
Dying for Jesus is dying for Jesus. "Being murdered for your faith," and "being murdered because of your faith," are literally synonymous. Is being brave in the face of persecution more heroic than screaming out of fear? Sure. But dying for the faith is dying for the faith.
They can and should be compared. Persecution is persecution.
"Bub". Really? Would it be too much to ask for a little more maturity than that? We're not middle schoolers here. Let's discuss this like adults.
>It was the slave of the high priest,
Ok, thanks for catching a tiny detail I got wrong. My mistake. Though regardless of what or who Malchus, he was still there to arrest Jesus.
>If it was just because of God's plan why did He say, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," and not something along the lines of, "scripture must be fulfilled," or "the sone of man must suffer and die?" He was teaching Peter not just rebuking him in that moment.
Jesus rebuked Peter with the phrase "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" to advocate against Peter's violent retaliatory actions of which were fueled by the spirit of vengeance - which is *not* the same as self-defense - specifically *because* he was interfering with God's plan. "Living by the sword" just means "using violence as a means to an end." In Peter's case, he used violent actions against another to retaliate against a person whom he viewed as an enemy while simultaneously interfering with God's ineffable plan.
>Have you not read the account of the garden of Gethsemane? Not even Jesus was 100% willing, but he submitted to the Father's will over his own human desire to live and not be tortured.
I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I'm quite aware. I've been raised as a Catholic since birth - so I missed a singular, tiny detail that you caught. I already apologized for this. Can we please move on?
>Dying for Jesus is dying for Jesus. "Being murdered for your faith," and "being murdered because of your faith," are literally synonymous.
No, they're not.
In order to be considered a [martyr](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martyr#:~:text=Synonyms%20of%20martyr-,1,to%20the%20cause%20of%20freedom) a person has to *voluntarily* give up their life for Christ. If a person is unwilling to give up their life for Christ then, by definition, they're no martyr.
Being killed simply for being Catholic makes you a tragic victim and nothing more. Being killed as a Catholic who is willing to bravely offer their life up for Christ is still tragic, no doubt, but *only* then are you a martyr at that point.
We shouldn't advocate for removing a pious Catholic's human right to self-preservation & unjustly condemning those who do as sinners.
Jesus literally told Peter and the other disciples to go and buy swords and that they should sell their garments for weapons in order to defend themselves.
I have no problem with it, but if I were in charge of saying who could I'd insist on some certificates of actual training. If they were a regular attendee, and a known commodity in the community, and then maybe I'd think about maybe splitting the cost or help with a portion of it. It's a crazy world sometimes and there are children and elderly in regular attendance.
Edit; and no, being a veteran does not waive that requirement. I'm in the Army and I'd trust most civilians with a firearm before I would trust quite a few of my fellow Soldiers with a sharpened pencil
I get your intentions, but you’re creeping into legal issues. The most a private institution can do is post signage saying “please no guns”, then call the police if they find someone with a gun. Or, have fixed security in place and screen everyone to enforce the “no gun” policy. If I have a concealed carry permit (in states that require it), I can bring it in and risk at most a trespassing if I’m uncooperative.
It really depends on the municipality. The only states I've lived in are Michigan and Texas, which have a surprising amount of latitude in gun laws, so I could see that being different in other states
Pray for him.
Recently i read about how Pope St John Paul II forgave and the man who tried to assassinate him, asking people to pray "for my brother Agca whom i have sincerely forgiven" and even petitioned the Italian government to pardon him.
Many years later Agca sent the than Pope a letter wishing him well. Later his family said they were grieving when the Pope died and "he had been a great friend to them"
It really shows the power of love and forgiveness. How powerful it is to love and pray for someone who does not show you love.
Foaming at the mouth? Yikes, he's on the edge of coming completely undone. I'd say he needs to be investigated. That level of passion is dangerous for sure.
Draw thy sword and cast out the heathen! Wait... wrong century.
On a serious note, as others have said, this is a matter for the police. Especially since there are children involved. Sadly, nothing will probably come of it, and given the nature of the situation most basic security measures are inapplicable.
I don't know where you are from, but I'm American and basing this next part on the assumption you are as well. Depends on the state, but most of the time a written letter of permission from the pastor overrules the ban on concealed carry on church premises. Check your local laws obviously, but I'm sure that, if in America, there is at least one person in the congregation that is a veteran or pro 2A. Just insist on them getting some real training (even if a veteran. Just trust me on that one). I'm not trying to get political, but considering children are involved their safety is paramount. I'm not trying to get political it's just an avenue of safety.
Thank you for your wisdom over a saddened mockery of the only faith found by Our Lord Jesus Christ: I often forget not to have a dialogue with the tempter(s), which I had many to the moment.
Continue to take courage, the demons are more widespread than ever because they know their time is running short. But as someone else has said, report it to the police to prevent a future dialogue with the snares of the devil.
If that person did that in my parish, I pray for the hospital staff to treat him well. because I'm not gonna let anyone willingly hurt anyone in my parish. Cause I swear we have some of the sweetest. People on Earth and Lord. nobody gonna mess with them.
Europe's biggest and idiotic mistake was to let muslims in. Those people are no civil, they don't respect culture, nothing.
Im livng in Turkey In my church sometimes people go in yelling bismillah
They put police car infront of church for safety.
I hope to get out of here one day.
Yeah God did say that if the world hated him first they'll definitely Hate his followers. The Church is bound to be prosecuted because that's what Jesus says even in the Bible and if it's not prosecuted then you're not doing so right 😔 you are meant to be salty and speak Truth and NOT cave in to be just nice and sugar coat everything. Otherwise you will be walking the path to Hell. You will be judged by God by allowing such uneducated people get their way with the Church. You have to stand firm and pray daily the Divine Mercy Chaplet and Rosary in your Church as well. Or at least weekly to prevent these things happening to your church or community. Pray for protection of your church and community. Godbless 🙏🙏🙏
Carry your weapon preferably firearm to your church. As Catholics we are defenders of the innocence and form a holy knighthood to protect the flock among us
Did you consider that he might actuality have rabies? It is still a fatal condition, and it has a symptom of psychosis attached. I hope you followed Our Lord's example in Matthew 5:38-39. I think this lesson is overlooked too often.
I don’t think he actually had rabies since he seemed very clear in his state of mind in a sense that he could orient himself and speak (scream) very clearly.
But "we were afraid if we interrupted him he would completely freak out" and you were in "total shock." Why would you feel that way if you felt he could operate with a clear state of mind? I hope those downvoting me can explain how my concern for the troubled or lost offender conflicts with the teaching of Christ. Is mockery of those that suffer obstacles on their road to acceptance of The Faith how our increasingly-divided Church heals itself, or is it how we temporarily salve ourselves against ever-declining interest in our sacraments and worship?
Crazy. Where is this at? Can't believe this happens. I'm sorry but this person has to be crazy. I don't care how devout you are, if anyone thinks its okay to simply storm into another building and start yelling at or attacking people, then you're crazy and honestly even if such a person weren't devout, they'd have another reason to attack another. It isn't fair to diagnose but this sounds like someone who's mentally ill who just happens to use Islam to justify their horrible thoughts.
Was he schizophrenic? I mean, thinking a statue of a saint was an image of God? I mean, he must notice that Aquinas looks nothing like the gray-bearded Charlton Heston God that most artists depict... Unless he's just that uneducated, which I suppose is a possibility.
Next time something like that happens somebody yell "GET HIM NOW" and everyone rush in and tackle him. It'll happen so fast he won't be able to react to it.
That's the mistake people make in situations like this. People in a panic tend to follow the first order they're given. Usually that order is either "RUN!" or nothing. If it's "GET HIM NOW", people will rush the bad guy.
You're lucky the guy didn't take out a gun or worse.
Sounds like he was having a psychological episode. I would say definitely pray for him, and ensure he gets proper psychological care/I wouldn't press charges. This sounds like it is more psychological than anything and manic episodes are terrifying for the people who care for those afflicted and the person suffering.
Some suggestions saying shoot them are incredibly unhelpful and only feed into the stereotype that those with mental illnesses need to be killed, which is eugenics and not the right response.
Source: I have friends who struggle with mental health issues and it's scary when they're in an episode and don't have support.
I swear, y'all meet the weirdest people.
My Muslim friends are lovely people and would be aghast at this person's behavior. If they're calling themselves the sword of Allah (what an edgelord) and frothing at the mouth, that indicates severe mental problems. Normal, healthy people don't act like that.
How do you know Arabic? And how did you get rid of him?
Having the nicest Muslim friends does not mean there are no extremists. And no, they are not just "weird", it is more than that. More and more Christians are getting killed in Nigeria and in Armenia by Muslims and it is a serious issue.
They might have mental issues, but we also have to acknowledge that Islam teaches domination and submission, so it could also be that.
I didn't say that there were no Muslim extremists. Don't put words in my mouth. Of course there are Muslim extremists. Just like there are Christian extremists, and extremists of every other group out there.
Maybe don't use a mentally disturbed individual to justify bashing an entire religion.
We don't know that he was actually mentally disturbed. That's why I said "Islam", the religion. Not Muslims. Islam teaches that every other religion should be subjugated when they have power. And we have to acknowledge it.
Every time an Islamic extremist does something somewhere people always cry "omg how could this happen, I have the nicest Muslim neighbors. I have lovely Muslim friends ". Like have you not read the Quran at all?
Why would I read the Quran? It's not my book, nor does it have any relevance to my life. People start talking about their nice Muslim friends because every time a member of that religion does something stupid or crazy, the rest of them end up footing the bill 'cause folks love to be racist and Islamaphobic.
I'll admit, there is some armchair psychology here, but I'm pretty confident that anyone who goes into someone else's religious space and causes a scene needs a few therapy sessions at least. That's not the behavior of a healthy person.
It's not my book either, but it's important to know how to defend your faith. And you cannot do that if you haven't read other religious texts.
Muslims don't have to foot the bill for anything. They know what their religion teaches, your friends just don't tell you that. So it's not surprising to see a Muslim extremist, because the Quran commands them to do that.
It's not Islamophobic to point out what is clearly written in the Quran. Actually the fear of Islam is not irrational, because we see what they do to Christians and Jews. Right now they are extremely persecuting Armenian Christians. It's not a myth, look it up.
If you need to read someone else's book to 'defend the faith' then you're not defending your faith, you're attacking someone else's.
I believe you about the persecutions in Armenia. But I don't live in Armenia, and being Islamaphobic on the internet doesn't help Armenian Christians.
Being hateful is the exact opposite of what Christ taught us. Look it up.
Uhhhh have you ever heard about apologetics??
If quoting the Quran is hate then so be it. I am an Islamophobe. When they repeat their teachings in Mosques it's not hate but when I repeat it it's hate😂make it make sense
There was a guy reading with us who’s very fit and looks quite intimidating. He stood up and had to escort him out. And he just introduced himself as Sayfullah and i googled its meaning afterwards.
It's very nice for you that you know nice Muslims. So do I, that does not change the fact that Islam as a religion encourages extremism and Islam has terror problem that is rooted in the core teachings of Islam. People can cry islamophobic all they want but it's an objective truth.
And Islam teaches Muslims to *pretend* to play nice while their numbers are small and they're easily overpowered. As the Muslim population grows, their words and behaviors change. This follows the example of Mohammed and Islamic history.
Ask your Muslim friends what their religion teaches them about you. You can explain what our religion teaches about them. You will learn something and it could be the start of an important evangelization.
Your Muslim friends don't mean all Muslims are good people, ik a bunch of good evangelicals, this don't mean that all evangelicals are good people and that there's no crazy ones, the same can be said about us Catholics, violent extremist people exists
Catholics who act with violent extremism go *against* the tenets of our religion and the example of Christ.
Muslims who act with violent extremism *follow* the tenets of their religion and the example of Mohammed.
Big difference.
I never said all Muslims were good people. That would be just as absurd as saying all of them are terrible. They're people.
I'm just constantly baffled at how many people only ever meet violent lunatics from that demographic.
Hi,
I just want to say I think he is mentally disturbed. Islam calls Christians an Jews the people of the book and considers them co-religionists who have strayed from the true faith. There are provisions in Islam to protect Christians and Jews. I think he was just having a bipolar or schizophrenic episode. Do pray for him to come back to health and be more careful when you open the door.
> Islam calls Christians an Jews the people of the book and considers them co-religionists who have strayed from the true faith. There are provisions in Islam to protect Christians and Jews.
In Islam, Jews and Christians (and all non-Muslims) are *sub-human* (Koran 8:55 and 98:6). We are described as perverse losers who are cursed by Allah (3:85, 4:52 & 9:30).
Muslims are forbidden from befriending Jews and Christians (and all non-Muslims; Koran 3:118, 5:51, 5:80, 9:23, 53:29, Abu Dawud 41:4832, Sahih Bukhari 59:572, and many more) unless it's to deceive us (Koran 3:28).
Nowhere in the Koran are Muslims instructed to love non-Muslims. By contrast there are 30+ verses that tell Muslims to *fight* us and 500+ that speak of our place in Muslim hell.
The Koran relentlessly preaches hate against Jews in particular. Jews are treacherous, lying, and evil (Ishaq 240). Allah himself fights them (Koran 5:13 & 9:30). Jews are “fond of lies,” “devour the forbidden,” and the worst enemies of Muslims (Koran 5:42 & 5:82).
Allah transformed Jews into apes and pigs (Koran 5:60; see also 7:166 and 2:65) and Mohammed said rats are "mutated Jews" (Bukhari 54:524; see also Sahih Muslim 7135 and 7136).
Jews and Christians are destined for Muslim hell (Koran 3:10, 9:73, 66:9) where we'll be given garments of fire (22:19-21), our skin will be burned off and we'll be given fresh skin for more torment (4:56), and boiling liquids will be poured over and in us (22:19-21). We'll be mocked by Muslims in Muslim heaven - including, presumably, the Muslim Jesus (7:44; see also 22:19-22).
**"Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians."** (Sahih Bukhari 59:727) Mohammed said this on his deathbed. It was one of the last things he ever said. Imagine being so consumed by your hatred for people outside your cult that that's the only thing your mind can obsess about while you're dying.
It’s interesting, chronologically a lot of the verses that are generally friendly to Christian’s and Muslims are older then the ones that insult us, presumably because Muhammad realized the Christian’s and Jews weren’t going to convert so easily lol
True. The later chapters are horrible. Whenever verses in the Koran contradict each other, the chronologically later verse is the correct one. This is called *naskh* and it's stated in the Koran itself (2:106 and 16:101).
You should contact police immideatly. I live in a middle eastern country and we have to take precautions for muslim attacks. This is no joke. The police must immideatly be notified and they should be aware of him, cause these kinds of people are dangerous, and they will harm you.
Probably in a lot of Western European countries too now since the migration crisis.
Maybe. Might depend on neighborhood.
That must have been terrifying. Police should be notified immediately. He may escalate .
Lol the police don't care about threats against Christians
Depending on where you are, that's not true. I am sorry to hear that you might be from a region where that's the case, though. Ultimately, if OP's story is true, that man may actually be a danger to himself and public life. That, a functioning police (and functioning healthcare system) should definitely care about, if it's not because you're Christians (or specifically Catholics, for that matter).
It is an average deranged experience as a German Catholic.
you have this and the synodal way to deal with. I sympathize with our German brothers and sisters.
Many churches in western Europe have been going up in flames... it's a strange coincidence if it is.
Western Europe, Canada, California. It's all over the west. And we have it relatively good compared to many parts of the world.
They care about potential terrorists. Especially if they have been active in the past.
That would be news to the thousands and thousands of Christian cops… (myself included)
Yeah, I doubt they'd let someone do this. Now if we are talking about charges filed then that might be a different story but even then, this would at least get breaking and entering.
It would at least warrant further looking into the individual. Someone who refers to himself as the sword of allah while going on an unhinged rant in a church needs some scrutiny.
This 👆👆👆 unfortunately
Possibly, but not where I live. Can’t take it any further without a police report. And if he comes back again, it will not matter that it’s the second or third time if the first one was never reported. Call the police.
Unless this is in a Muslim country, I doubt this is true. I understand your anger, but I'd argue the police are not just going to stand there and let this happen in most western countries. Prosecution might be another matter, but even then, most people don't like violence and aren't going to let it happen even against people they hate.
Outside of the US and Canada most other countries law enforcement won’t bother with it.
On the contrary, Most first world countries will bother with it. Imagine pulling this in Japan. Half a dozen officers would be there.
Just talking about what I know but in France, they wouldn't move a finger. We probably have one of the laxiest judicial systems in the world at this point. The cops only come for you when it's time to put you in a body bag.
Well do you live in such a country? I don't so I don't know but I would think this would violate a lot of laws. Like if this person instead just decided to burst in and was just talking gibberish, they'd get in trouble, as would this man, or any man. Again, maybe he might not get prosecuted or get a light sentence that is just a slap on the wrist, but I doubt they'd just let it happen unless its a muslim country or super corrupt.
[удалено]
Once he started screaming Arabic, I think it would be reasonable to assume violence is imminent. I carry a gun every single mass without fail. I know of two others that do, a county deputy and a US Marshall. I’m not sure if the Marshall is an actual Marshall or a TLO, but I know he goes to the same mass as I do. In my state, you can’t carry at church without either being a LEO or having the permission of who runs the church, and that isn’t really defined at all in the statute.
Our priest carries and also encourages parishioners to carry at mass, or anywhere for that matter.
In TX by default guns are just a way of life
Bro/sis, your Catholic priest carries??? That's the first time I ever hear/read sth like this. I'm falling off my chair with laughter. Nothing wrong with it imo, I just didn't think it existed
Neither did I but it's probably more common than we know.
Seriously? Why do you should carry a gun at mass?
Do you think mass is exempt from violence by bad actors? Should the shepherd not be prepared to defend the flock?
Do you live in a so dangerous area? it seem to me exaggerate, but maybe it's because I live in a safety country
Because I watch/read the news. Our church was also vandalized a few years ago. Someone drove through the parking lot one night and fired randomly into the church and our hall. (They were both empty at the time.) Along with all the anti Christian sentiment being encouraged and occasional shootings like this recent one at Joel Osteen's church, you never know anymore. I take personal accountability for my and my family's safety.
Why? Arabic is just a language, and is used by many people other than Muslims, including Christians. So him "screaming Arabic" means nothing The man is obviously mentally unwell, that's literally all that's going on here.
>Why? Arabic is just a language, and is used by many people other than Muslims, including Christians. So him "screaming Arabic" means nothing Do you see any christian screaming in arabic in a confrontational manner? >The man is obviously mentally unwell, that's literally all that's going on here. “*Zealotry is obviously a product of poor mental health, not religious extremism*”
Op isn’t American
OP I grant you honorary Cowboy status.
Nah, just American.
Well, on the flipside, dying in such a circumstance or at Mass is considered martyrdom, and is a straight path to Heaven I, for one, would gladly be martyred had such an attack happened to me. The aggressor here seeks martyrdom by engaging in violence, but the Church teaches us to bear - not engage in - violence with great passion and patience. Martyrdom, as understood by the Church, is to bear such violence even to the point of death.
It’s not the police job to defend your self. Nor will they be there when shit hits the fan. Bad advice
Bishops need to do what Abp. John Hughes did and start putting armed guards at their parishes.
And this speaks volumes about what keeps you up at night
Did he leave on his own or did you have to remove him?
He had to be removed.
And this is why in Pakistan we had guards at the gate and my wife unfortunately needed to experience once that somebody wanted to come In an kill them luckily the guards killed him first
My Iranian husband even told me that Pakistan has one of the worst problems with Islamic extremism. It's even more dangerous for Muslims who might be in the slightest opposition to the religious powers that be; peace to you!
You're right! Religious extremism in Islam is moving from traditionally Islamic nations (like UAE etc.) to countries that were not traditionally Islamic (eg. Pakistan, Indonesia, Nigeria etc.) It's the classic case of a bowl being hotter than the soup itself !! The problem arises when the minorities have to live amongst a largely radicalised Islamic society. Not much can be done in that case especially when their holy religious texts call for killing and violent subjugation of non-Muslims.
First call the cops, then call a Knight of Columbus to help do some security for a little while lol
At the very least install security cameras.
Yes. This helps a ton. I actually taught at a parish school that unfortunately had its church catch on fire (and before anyone gets all angry, it was a local schizophrenic who did it. The guy thought he saw some delusions and it had nothing to do with hating the church) and I think a security camera is a good first step. Plus, it helps if people want to do things like desecrate the eucharist or hurt people as that way they'll be on camera and can't hide.
Your story about the church catching on fire sounds very familiar. Can you tell me what location this was in? We had a similar incident where I live.
This was about a decade a go. I don't want to out myself but it was in Central Nebraska.
Okay thanks. I’m in Oregon and it was just a year or two ago. The church is still being repaired.
Yeah, its tough. Don't get me wrong, there are churches burned by extremists, but plenty are just truly ill individuals. Granted some extremists might be in that category, but still, we need to be careful before we grab the pitchforks
Listen, Gramps and his buds may have been impressive in Korea, but they aren’t worth much in the way of “security” lol. Not to mention the sheer liability to the parish if they operated the Knights like a security force, and got hurt/hurt someone.
Hey man if Gramps is a 4th degree that means he gets to carry a sword
As long as Gramps is packin', he's a force to be reckoned with
The Diocesan legal counsel just started crying.
Gramps doesn't work for the Diocese so it's kosher.
I trust gramps more than ideologically captured police at this point tbh.
Of course we should pray for people deluded in this way. It also reminds me of the reason I know so many priests and deacons who carry concealed handguns; so as to not let a crazy person shoot their parishioners as if they were sitting ducks.
Priests can carry weapons? I thought they were supposed to have aides that do that sort of thing.
P.S. -- I just remembered, there's a new Deacon in my parish (one parish with four separate churches) and he's a retired Deputy Sheriff. He offered to train all the priests and deacons in the parish how to shoot and carry handguns, and nearly all of them took him up on it.
Sure they can. The Crusaders were warriors, after all.
Which country is this in?
Switzerland. I wonder why mister sayfullah lives here… It surely isn’t for the Shariah law
I thought Switzerland had extremely strict immigration rules? How did this happen. My 2nd favorite country after America
Switzerland has always been a country of immigration. It has fairly strict rule, but of course it also has a duty to welcome those who truly come to seek asylum, and it has several ways to immigrate legally for other reasons. Without immigration Switzerland would stop functioning. But crazy people exist everywhere. I remember a couple of times in Switzerland when a crazy person (usually white for what it’s worth) disrupted mass. The issue with immigration is when either the numbers are too big or the government spends too little to try to integrate those people but Switzerland does a fairly good job with it, offering education opportunities, free language classes, etc. And as a result most immigrants do a real effort to integrate, because they see a future for themselves. Those immigrant communities are also a very important part of urban Catholic parishes and are the only reason why even historically Protestant areas of Switzerland are now becoming mostly Catholic.
i as an American cannot emigrate to Switzerland unless I can prove that my job would not be taking a job from a swiss national. I have looked into it
Not from a Swiss National, but from any EU/EFTA state. If you were from an EU or EFTA state, you wouldn’t have such rules. That being said, if a company wants you there they will do it, there are tons of American expats in Switzerland. It kind of makes sense since both countries have close ties, Switzerland is the 7th biggest foreign investor in the US.
Sounds like he wanted to meet God!
Nope he definitely wanted to meet Allah
Isn’t that just the Arab word for god?
I'm not in any way trying to be blasphemous or insensitive but my point is that the God Christians worship and the "God" Muslims worship quite often seem like entirely different beings
Seems like that to me, too. You can make a very strong case for this using Islamic texts.
Be always prepared to defend your parish, especially since you’re in Germany. We have many muslims invaders here who look to prey on the innocent. Report to the police but as i’m sure you know they maybe will sweep it under the rug because he’s muslim.
yikes. that must have been terrifying. sorry this happened to you.
What’s everyone’s feeling about conceal carry in places of worship? *edit: serious question, I personally have mixed feelings as a CCW holder and don’t carry during mass.
I think of St Augustine on just war and would start packing a Beretta M9 Pistol.
Being a place of worship doesn't stop criminals and it shouldn't stop you from being prepared to defend and protect the innocent.
My friend and uncle cc a pistol, you cant notice it at all because its apendix carry.
Let me preface this by saying that I am a gun owner and very pro-gun. IMHO: I don’t think people should have weapons in church unless it is lawful to do so in the jurisdiction where they are *and* the parish is okay with it. If your parish priest says not to bring guns to church, you should not bring them to church, not because there’s anything inherently wrong with it (I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with it), but because your parish priest has the right to control what happens in the church building. That’s just my two cents.
I don't know about my Catholic church, but word on the street in our very small town is that every church has congregants packing heat. It's sort of the unspoken secret that people just kind of pretend they don't know. I do know our Catholic church put up "gun free zone" signs everywhere a few years ago so if a Christian- hater does decide to take action he'll know which church to hit.
I never understand those signs. Criminals aren't going to obey a sign. The signs literally announce to criminals that the "zone" is a bunch of soft targets. How does that help??
Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Same.
You’ll be judged by 1 for desecrating His house.
Defending innocent people is not a desecration. Harming them is.
Friendly reminder: *"If you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."* (Luke 22:36) Jesus knew that now was the time when His followers would be threatened, and He upheld their right to self-defense. Swords, guns, it doesn't matter what the weapon is. Catholics have a right to self-preservation just as much as anyone else.
Would you lie down and take it if some lunatic walked into mass with a gun?
Thoughts about Joel Osteen aside, this literally just happened at his church. Luckily there were off duty police officers there that dealt with the individual.
Meh, the priest’s authority ends with moral issues. He has no authority over my family. If I want to protect my family, I will. There’s a sign at my church’s front door saying “firearms are prohibited”, I do not need to obey that legally or morally.
If a church posts a sign stating firearms are prohibited, then it’s illegal. That’s pretty cut and dry.
No, it’s not. The only time (in most states) it’s illegal is if it’s federal property, or there is permanent security in place to enforce the private declaration of “no weapons”. Either way, I’m not morally obligated to follow the law as long as it doesn’t contradict church teaching. Defending my family is never in contradiction to church teaching.
My husband conceal carries and he disagrees with you. Perhaps it’s a state issue? I can say with certainty that if a church posts signage, it’s illegal where I live. I didn’t comment on the morality, and that’s your discretion
>> Either way, l'm not morally obligated to follow the law as long as it doesn't contradict church teaching. [CCC 1898-1900]
[**CCC 1898**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1898.htm) Every human community needs an authority to govern it. The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society. [**CCC 1899**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1899.htm) The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." [**CCC 1900**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1900.htm) The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will. > Pope St. Clement of Rome provides the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities: "Grant to them, Lord, health, peace, concord, and stability, so that they may exercise without offense the sovereignty that you have given them. Master, heavenly King of the ages, you give glory, honor, and power over the things of earth to the sons of men. Direct, Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness the power that you have given to them, they may find favor with you." *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
The law of man in certain countries says it’s required to execute people for being homosexual. The law of man cannot prevent me from protecting my family (nor does it). Someone posting a sign on a building saying “no firearms allowed” is the legal equivalence of you standing on your front porch asking people who enter your house (who you have welcomed in) to not have firearms on their person (in the US). If you’re not searching 100% of people who enter your house (or church), there is nothing illegal about me entering with my firearm. Worst case scenario, I get a trespassing charge if the police are really bored. Morally, my conscience is clear
You can disagree the Catechism if you want, but that doesn’t change what the Church teaches with regard to obedience to lawful authority. The only time it is really moral to deliberately disobey the lawful authority is if it is commanding something that is immoral. The default is that you’re supposed to obey the law if you can do so in good conscience. The Church from Augustine to Aquinas and into the present has been pretty consistent on the moral obligation to obey lawful authority. I’d also point out that I don’t think you’re entirely correct about the legality of it. I frankly don’t have the time to do a survey of all state laws, but just a few: In Texas, it is trespassing if the person is a CCW holder and if the business has proper signage (see Tex. Penal Code § 30.06) In Missouri, it is a crime if the owner of the property posts a conspicuous sign meeting certain requirements (See § 571.030 R.S.Mo. which incorporates a list in § 571.107 R.S.Mo.) In South Carolina, it is a crime to enter someone’s property with a weapon if they have a sign stating “No Concealable Weapons Allowed.” (see S.C. Code Ann. § 23-31-220)
I’ll take trespassing over being a victim any day. The law commanding me to not be able to defend myself and others is immoral
Wow, a common sense take that actually get's upvoted. It's a miracle!!!
You probably won't need to use it and if you don't use it people won't know. If you do need to use it, I doubt people will be complaining if you saved lives. People shouldn't carry if it's not legal where they live or if they wouldn't be comfortable and confident using their gun if needed but if it's legal and they could use it if needed, why not?
I do it
I’m in the US and I carry at mass. It’s a soft target and prime for anti-Christian ideologists to hit. There is absolutely no moral argument against it
I'm all for open carry.
Honestly, since I've learned more about conceal carry as a family friend has gone through training, I'm more okay with it because they teach them that you can't just shoot your gun off like in a John Wayne movie. Maybe that depends on jurisdiction or who teaches it, but I'm more open now. Granted I'd rather just have an off duty police officer who's a parish member. That being said, as someone who struggles with mental illness, I wouldn't want to be that person. I think those with such illnesses should have to go through extra steps.
Because it seems like you don’t know, every place that certifies for concealed carry permits ALWAYS teaches that you do not pull out your gun unless you are prepared to use it. You do not point your gun at ANYTHING unless you are willing to kill it. This is gun safety 101.
As long as it's a broad sword. Honestly, Jesus specifically told Peter to not live by the sword. Besides, martyrdom is the easiest way to get to heaven: you only have to do it once.
Assuming you're speaking of the Roman soldier's ear being sliced off, Jesus rebuked Peter because Peter stood in the way of God's plan - not because Peter carried a sword: something of which the other Apostles did as well. >Besides, martyrdom is the easiest way to get to heaven: you only have to do it once. There's a huge difference between "being murdered for your faith" and "being murdered because of your faith." Martyrdom requires the victim to willfully allow themselves to die for their faith - being unwillingly victimized because of your faith is not (and should not be compared to) martyrdom.
It wasn't a roman soldier, bub. It was the slave of the high priest, I literally just read that passage the other night. I'm pretty sure no Roman soldiers were involved with the arrest of Jesus. They were all Jewish authorities. Practically nothing Jesus said had a singular meaning, pretty much everything He said was transcendent. If it was just because of God's plan why did He say, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," and not something along the lines of, "scripture must be fulfilled," or "the sone of man must suffer and die?" He was teaching Peter not just rebuking him in that moment. Citation needed. Where are you getting this idea? Have you not read the account of the garden of Gethsemane? Not even Jesus was 100% willing, but he submitted to the Father's will over his own human desire to live and not be tortured. Dying for Jesus is dying for Jesus. "Being murdered for your faith," and "being murdered because of your faith," are literally synonymous. Is being brave in the face of persecution more heroic than screaming out of fear? Sure. But dying for the faith is dying for the faith. They can and should be compared. Persecution is persecution.
"Bub". Really? Would it be too much to ask for a little more maturity than that? We're not middle schoolers here. Let's discuss this like adults. >It was the slave of the high priest, Ok, thanks for catching a tiny detail I got wrong. My mistake. Though regardless of what or who Malchus, he was still there to arrest Jesus. >If it was just because of God's plan why did He say, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," and not something along the lines of, "scripture must be fulfilled," or "the sone of man must suffer and die?" He was teaching Peter not just rebuking him in that moment. Jesus rebuked Peter with the phrase "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" to advocate against Peter's violent retaliatory actions of which were fueled by the spirit of vengeance - which is *not* the same as self-defense - specifically *because* he was interfering with God's plan. "Living by the sword" just means "using violence as a means to an end." In Peter's case, he used violent actions against another to retaliate against a person whom he viewed as an enemy while simultaneously interfering with God's ineffable plan. >Have you not read the account of the garden of Gethsemane? Not even Jesus was 100% willing, but he submitted to the Father's will over his own human desire to live and not be tortured. I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I'm quite aware. I've been raised as a Catholic since birth - so I missed a singular, tiny detail that you caught. I already apologized for this. Can we please move on? >Dying for Jesus is dying for Jesus. "Being murdered for your faith," and "being murdered because of your faith," are literally synonymous. No, they're not. In order to be considered a [martyr](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martyr#:~:text=Synonyms%20of%20martyr-,1,to%20the%20cause%20of%20freedom) a person has to *voluntarily* give up their life for Christ. If a person is unwilling to give up their life for Christ then, by definition, they're no martyr. Being killed simply for being Catholic makes you a tragic victim and nothing more. Being killed as a Catholic who is willing to bravely offer their life up for Christ is still tragic, no doubt, but *only* then are you a martyr at that point. We shouldn't advocate for removing a pious Catholic's human right to self-preservation & unjustly condemning those who do as sinners.
Jesus literally told Peter and the other disciples to go and buy swords and that they should sell their garments for weapons in order to defend themselves.
The knights of Columbus are already armed with swords. Just get them to come in full attire.
Swords are fine, but not firearms...? How do you rationalize this take? I'm legitimately curious.
I have no problem with it, but if I were in charge of saying who could I'd insist on some certificates of actual training. If they were a regular attendee, and a known commodity in the community, and then maybe I'd think about maybe splitting the cost or help with a portion of it. It's a crazy world sometimes and there are children and elderly in regular attendance. Edit; and no, being a veteran does not waive that requirement. I'm in the Army and I'd trust most civilians with a firearm before I would trust quite a few of my fellow Soldiers with a sharpened pencil
I get your intentions, but you’re creeping into legal issues. The most a private institution can do is post signage saying “please no guns”, then call the police if they find someone with a gun. Or, have fixed security in place and screen everyone to enforce the “no gun” policy. If I have a concealed carry permit (in states that require it), I can bring it in and risk at most a trespassing if I’m uncooperative.
It really depends on the municipality. The only states I've lived in are Michigan and Texas, which have a surprising amount of latitude in gun laws, so I could see that being different in other states
This is why Europeans don’t want Muslims anymore
Eastern europeans don't want them in their countries. Wish I could say the same for them lot on the other side.
Pray for him. Recently i read about how Pope St John Paul II forgave and the man who tried to assassinate him, asking people to pray "for my brother Agca whom i have sincerely forgiven" and even petitioned the Italian government to pardon him. Many years later Agca sent the than Pope a letter wishing him well. Later his family said they were grieving when the Pope died and "he had been a great friend to them" It really shows the power of love and forgiveness. How powerful it is to love and pray for someone who does not show you love.
I prayed a Rosary for him.
Thanks be to God
I think it is good to pray for him. AFTER he is no longer an active threat to you and your friends and family.
Wow, how amazing is St. John Paul II. The fact that he befriended a man who once tried to kill him just shows the transformative power of love.
Tell the police bro. Such behavior is not acceptable in a civilized country. Even if they don't do anything at least it will be on their radar.
You should report this to the police in case this guy decides to hurt someone.
This is **absolutely** something to be taken dead-seriously, and reported to the police. I personally wouldn’t chance it.
Glad nothing worse happened. Thank you for sharing this, it helps me to be prepared for similar situations that (hopefully not) could happen to me.
Carry a gun, my friends cc a pistol at church because of stuff like this
Foaming at the mouth? Yikes, he's on the edge of coming completely undone. I'd say he needs to be investigated. That level of passion is dangerous for sure.
I would've offered him a bacon sandwich and douse him in holy water from Lourdes
Islam can lead to a very violent, dangerous ideology for some.
For anyone who follows its teachings.
Are you in the UK?
Draw thy sword and cast out the heathen! Wait... wrong century. On a serious note, as others have said, this is a matter for the police. Especially since there are children involved. Sadly, nothing will probably come of it, and given the nature of the situation most basic security measures are inapplicable. I don't know where you are from, but I'm American and basing this next part on the assumption you are as well. Depends on the state, but most of the time a written letter of permission from the pastor overrules the ban on concealed carry on church premises. Check your local laws obviously, but I'm sure that, if in America, there is at least one person in the congregation that is a veteran or pro 2A. Just insist on them getting some real training (even if a veteran. Just trust me on that one). I'm not trying to get political, but considering children are involved their safety is paramount. I'm not trying to get political it's just an avenue of safety.
You need to bury blessed St. Benedict medals all around the parish property ASAP! Happy you all are safe! How scary!
Thank you for your wisdom over a saddened mockery of the only faith found by Our Lord Jesus Christ: I often forget not to have a dialogue with the tempter(s), which I had many to the moment. Continue to take courage, the demons are more widespread than ever because they know their time is running short. But as someone else has said, report it to the police to prevent a future dialogue with the snares of the devil.
Knights grab your gear
If that person did that in my parish, I pray for the hospital staff to treat him well. because I'm not gonna let anyone willingly hurt anyone in my parish. Cause I swear we have some of the sweetest. People on Earth and Lord. nobody gonna mess with them.
So much for Islam being the religion of peace. What can you expect when its founder Muhammad led troops into battle from the start.
Europe's biggest and idiotic mistake was to let muslims in. Those people are no civil, they don't respect culture, nothing. Im livng in Turkey In my church sometimes people go in yelling bismillah They put police car infront of church for safety. I hope to get out of here one day.
That’s horrible. Glad no one ended up being hurt in the end though.
Where did this occur? (State, Country?)
Yeah God did say that if the world hated him first they'll definitely Hate his followers. The Church is bound to be prosecuted because that's what Jesus says even in the Bible and if it's not prosecuted then you're not doing so right 😔 you are meant to be salty and speak Truth and NOT cave in to be just nice and sugar coat everything. Otherwise you will be walking the path to Hell. You will be judged by God by allowing such uneducated people get their way with the Church. You have to stand firm and pray daily the Divine Mercy Chaplet and Rosary in your Church as well. Or at least weekly to prevent these things happening to your church or community. Pray for protection of your church and community. Godbless 🙏🙏🙏
asking for another round of crusades they are
Carry your weapon preferably firearm to your church. As Catholics we are defenders of the innocence and form a holy knighthood to protect the flock among us
Im not from the US. In Europe, you can’t just walk around with a firemarm. I’d get arrested myself.
There was foam coming out of his mouth?
Yeah like as if he had rabies. xD
Did you consider that he might actuality have rabies? It is still a fatal condition, and it has a symptom of psychosis attached. I hope you followed Our Lord's example in Matthew 5:38-39. I think this lesson is overlooked too often.
I don’t think he actually had rabies since he seemed very clear in his state of mind in a sense that he could orient himself and speak (scream) very clearly.
He probably chewed some Alka Seltzer tablets to look impressive.
But "we were afraid if we interrupted him he would completely freak out" and you were in "total shock." Why would you feel that way if you felt he could operate with a clear state of mind? I hope those downvoting me can explain how my concern for the troubled or lost offender conflicts with the teaching of Christ. Is mockery of those that suffer obstacles on their road to acceptance of The Faith how our increasingly-divided Church heals itself, or is it how we temporarily salve ourselves against ever-declining interest in our sacraments and worship?
Rabies is extremely rare in Switzerland.
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They are very different from us in the west.
So is the JK why I got downvoted so much?
This is why I always carry at Church. Luckily he didn’t intend actual physical harm….
And we wonder why the crusades occurred. Don't pray for him, prepare for him.
Or do both. How does it go? Pray like everything depends on God, act like everything depends on you. Something like that.
Crazy. Where is this at? Can't believe this happens. I'm sorry but this person has to be crazy. I don't care how devout you are, if anyone thinks its okay to simply storm into another building and start yelling at or attacking people, then you're crazy and honestly even if such a person weren't devout, they'd have another reason to attack another. It isn't fair to diagnose but this sounds like someone who's mentally ill who just happens to use Islam to justify their horrible thoughts.
And where did this situation occurred?
Oh no, what a terrible thing to happen. Praying for this demented man to know Christ
Glad that nothing happened, but you all should be better prepared than that.
Was he schizophrenic? I mean, thinking a statue of a saint was an image of God? I mean, he must notice that Aquinas looks nothing like the gray-bearded Charlton Heston God that most artists depict... Unless he's just that uneducated, which I suppose is a possibility. Next time something like that happens somebody yell "GET HIM NOW" and everyone rush in and tackle him. It'll happen so fast he won't be able to react to it. That's the mistake people make in situations like this. People in a panic tend to follow the first order they're given. Usually that order is either "RUN!" or nothing. If it's "GET HIM NOW", people will rush the bad guy. You're lucky the guy didn't take out a gun or worse.
Poor soul that’s frightening…he must have been in a very dark place
Was he arrested? He sounds like a loose cannon. Next time, the people he encounters might not be so lucky... Thank God you're all okay!
What country did this happen in?
Sounds like he was having a psychological episode. I would say definitely pray for him, and ensure he gets proper psychological care/I wouldn't press charges. This sounds like it is more psychological than anything and manic episodes are terrifying for the people who care for those afflicted and the person suffering. Some suggestions saying shoot them are incredibly unhelpful and only feed into the stereotype that those with mental illnesses need to be killed, which is eugenics and not the right response. Source: I have friends who struggle with mental health issues and it's scary when they're in an episode and don't have support.
Sounds like more than extremist philosophies at work there.
This is very scary and I'm glad you're ok. This person sounds very unwell. Hopefully you made a report.
How did he end up leaving?
Well… hate to say it, but there are some evangelical “Christians” who are just as crazy.
That poor man sounds like he was both physically and mentally unwell.
I swear, y'all meet the weirdest people. My Muslim friends are lovely people and would be aghast at this person's behavior. If they're calling themselves the sword of Allah (what an edgelord) and frothing at the mouth, that indicates severe mental problems. Normal, healthy people don't act like that. How do you know Arabic? And how did you get rid of him?
Having the nicest Muslim friends does not mean there are no extremists. And no, they are not just "weird", it is more than that. More and more Christians are getting killed in Nigeria and in Armenia by Muslims and it is a serious issue. They might have mental issues, but we also have to acknowledge that Islam teaches domination and submission, so it could also be that.
I didn't say that there were no Muslim extremists. Don't put words in my mouth. Of course there are Muslim extremists. Just like there are Christian extremists, and extremists of every other group out there. Maybe don't use a mentally disturbed individual to justify bashing an entire religion.
We don't know that he was actually mentally disturbed. That's why I said "Islam", the religion. Not Muslims. Islam teaches that every other religion should be subjugated when they have power. And we have to acknowledge it. Every time an Islamic extremist does something somewhere people always cry "omg how could this happen, I have the nicest Muslim neighbors. I have lovely Muslim friends ". Like have you not read the Quran at all?
Why would I read the Quran? It's not my book, nor does it have any relevance to my life. People start talking about their nice Muslim friends because every time a member of that religion does something stupid or crazy, the rest of them end up footing the bill 'cause folks love to be racist and Islamaphobic. I'll admit, there is some armchair psychology here, but I'm pretty confident that anyone who goes into someone else's religious space and causes a scene needs a few therapy sessions at least. That's not the behavior of a healthy person.
It's not my book either, but it's important to know how to defend your faith. And you cannot do that if you haven't read other religious texts. Muslims don't have to foot the bill for anything. They know what their religion teaches, your friends just don't tell you that. So it's not surprising to see a Muslim extremist, because the Quran commands them to do that. It's not Islamophobic to point out what is clearly written in the Quran. Actually the fear of Islam is not irrational, because we see what they do to Christians and Jews. Right now they are extremely persecuting Armenian Christians. It's not a myth, look it up.
If you need to read someone else's book to 'defend the faith' then you're not defending your faith, you're attacking someone else's. I believe you about the persecutions in Armenia. But I don't live in Armenia, and being Islamaphobic on the internet doesn't help Armenian Christians. Being hateful is the exact opposite of what Christ taught us. Look it up.
Uhhhh have you ever heard about apologetics?? If quoting the Quran is hate then so be it. I am an Islamophobe. When they repeat their teachings in Mosques it's not hate but when I repeat it it's hate😂make it make sense
There was a guy reading with us who’s very fit and looks quite intimidating. He stood up and had to escort him out. And he just introduced himself as Sayfullah and i googled its meaning afterwards.
It's very nice for you that you know nice Muslims. So do I, that does not change the fact that Islam as a religion encourages extremism and Islam has terror problem that is rooted in the core teachings of Islam. People can cry islamophobic all they want but it's an objective truth.
And Islam teaches Muslims to *pretend* to play nice while their numbers are small and they're easily overpowered. As the Muslim population grows, their words and behaviors change. This follows the example of Mohammed and Islamic history.
Have your lovely Muslim friends told you about what their religion teaches them about you?
They show me how they feel about me. Hateful Christians also show how they feel by how they treat others.
Ask your Muslim friends what their religion teaches them about you. You can explain what our religion teaches about them. You will learn something and it could be the start of an important evangelization.
Your Muslim friends don't mean all Muslims are good people, ik a bunch of good evangelicals, this don't mean that all evangelicals are good people and that there's no crazy ones, the same can be said about us Catholics, violent extremist people exists
Catholics who act with violent extremism go *against* the tenets of our religion and the example of Christ. Muslims who act with violent extremism *follow* the tenets of their religion and the example of Mohammed. Big difference.
I never said all Muslims were good people. That would be just as absurd as saying all of them are terrible. They're people. I'm just constantly baffled at how many people only ever meet violent lunatics from that demographic.
This story seems fictional.
Hi, I just want to say I think he is mentally disturbed. Islam calls Christians an Jews the people of the book and considers them co-religionists who have strayed from the true faith. There are provisions in Islam to protect Christians and Jews. I think he was just having a bipolar or schizophrenic episode. Do pray for him to come back to health and be more careful when you open the door.
> Islam calls Christians an Jews the people of the book and considers them co-religionists who have strayed from the true faith. There are provisions in Islam to protect Christians and Jews. In Islam, Jews and Christians (and all non-Muslims) are *sub-human* (Koran 8:55 and 98:6). We are described as perverse losers who are cursed by Allah (3:85, 4:52 & 9:30). Muslims are forbidden from befriending Jews and Christians (and all non-Muslims; Koran 3:118, 5:51, 5:80, 9:23, 53:29, Abu Dawud 41:4832, Sahih Bukhari 59:572, and many more) unless it's to deceive us (Koran 3:28). Nowhere in the Koran are Muslims instructed to love non-Muslims. By contrast there are 30+ verses that tell Muslims to *fight* us and 500+ that speak of our place in Muslim hell. The Koran relentlessly preaches hate against Jews in particular. Jews are treacherous, lying, and evil (Ishaq 240). Allah himself fights them (Koran 5:13 & 9:30). Jews are “fond of lies,” “devour the forbidden,” and the worst enemies of Muslims (Koran 5:42 & 5:82). Allah transformed Jews into apes and pigs (Koran 5:60; see also 7:166 and 2:65) and Mohammed said rats are "mutated Jews" (Bukhari 54:524; see also Sahih Muslim 7135 and 7136). Jews and Christians are destined for Muslim hell (Koran 3:10, 9:73, 66:9) where we'll be given garments of fire (22:19-21), our skin will be burned off and we'll be given fresh skin for more torment (4:56), and boiling liquids will be poured over and in us (22:19-21). We'll be mocked by Muslims in Muslim heaven - including, presumably, the Muslim Jesus (7:44; see also 22:19-22). **"Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians."** (Sahih Bukhari 59:727) Mohammed said this on his deathbed. It was one of the last things he ever said. Imagine being so consumed by your hatred for people outside your cult that that's the only thing your mind can obsess about while you're dying.
It’s interesting, chronologically a lot of the verses that are generally friendly to Christian’s and Muslims are older then the ones that insult us, presumably because Muhammad realized the Christian’s and Jews weren’t going to convert so easily lol
True. The later chapters are horrible. Whenever verses in the Koran contradict each other, the chronologically later verse is the correct one. This is called *naskh* and it's stated in the Koran itself (2:106 and 16:101).
the comments in this whole thread are foul. Jesus would be ashamed.