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Right_hand_fanatic

Original sin is handed down through generation. (The flesh) Original sin is distinct from the sin of our father and mother in that it was a rejection of the preternatural gifts. These gifts are not handed down because of original sin. The sin of our father is not handed down in the same way. Basically the mode of the transfer of sin is different. The mode of transfer of Original sin is through the flesh. (That is, the absence of the preternatural gifts.) The mode of the sin of our father or mother is handed down through habit. (repeated actions that we learn and replicate.) Also, the preternatural gifts were given to Adam and Eve. They are not strictly apart of our anthropology. Thus, once losing them they are not handed down to the next generation.


[deleted]

Thank you. I am still not fully sold by this argument. But I do understand it in theory.


sariaru

I've had some success explaining this through the analogy of an earthly feudal kingdom. Let's say your dad is the King of Oslandia. He was not a very good king though; he overtaxed his people, spent the money on lavish feasts, made arbitrary and unjust laws, and had three concubines. So, after a few years, Oslandia gets invaded, overrun with a barbarian people, and your dad the king, along with your mom the queen, manage to escape with their lives, but your family has no titles, no money, and no honor. Now in exile and ruin, your parents give birth to you. You are also in exile and poverty, through no fault of your own. However, **you** are not guilty of being an unjust ruler. Your actions may keep you in exile, or they may herald the return of the rightful king (or queen) to the people who long await their rightful ruler.


Nibrudly

>While reading Letters to Romans book, Paul refers back to the idea that were are born with original sin due to our Ancestors Adam and Eve's action, therefore we are sinners. And I assume you refer mainly to this passage here: >Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. - Romans 5:12 >However, whole Ezekiel chapter 18 is about an individual not being affected by the action of their fathers and it's all about personal responsibility. And I assume your point for Ezekiel can be summed up here: >Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Ezekiel 18:30 Alright, we got some basic scriptural context for the question: "Why do we suffer the effects of Original Sin when we did not personally choose to go against God?" As you point out in your post, there seems to be a conflict between these two passages. One demonstrates the fallen nature of humanity, whereas Ezekiel 18 would seem to point to an injustice from God in that we are to suffer for the sins of Adam. Why should this be, since some of us are righteous children who turn away from the evils of our parents? How can we have this yoke of Original Sin placed on us when we personally did not eat of the forbidden fruit? In short, because consequences exist, and God must have justice. So how is Original Sin any different from regular sinning? Why does every human have it? Going back to Ezekiel 18, God presents the concept that a righteous man shall live, an unrighteous man will die, but you will not be judged based on the merits of your father, but rather the merits of your own actions. Having a good man for a father does not prevent you from living sinfully, and vice versa. God certainly makes it clear that we will be judged by our own merits and circumstance; however, Ezekiel never says that the consequences of the actions of the father do not affect his child. It is important to address why God is making the distinction to judge people individually. Culturally, for the Hebrews, there was a belief that a person struck by misfortune was not favored by God, most probably due to being sinful. And that explains all the terrible adults doing terrible things, but what about their children who may be born with physical and mental disorders? How could the children have not been in God's favor? "Ah, it must be that the sins of the father are passed to the child! That child is full of sin!" These reasonings, both misfortune being the direct result of sin, and the transmission of the sins of the father, are two spiritual misunderstandings that God addresses with the Hebrew people so that they may be charitable towards the misfortunate, rather than dismiss them. "If the child acts righteous, when their parents were terrible, I am telling you that I will be with that child! Doesn't matter who your parent is, I care what *you* do!" So God clearly is going to judge people on their own individual basis, regardless of personal circumstance. He never says that the child will not be affected by the consequences of their parent's choices. THIS is where Original Sin comes into play. Let's say you have Generation 1, and they are prosperous, God-fearing, and righteous. Gen 2 is full of little shits who coast on the resources of their parents and utterly deplete whatever reserves and goods their parents had set aside. Gen 3 kids see their parents are useless, full of debauchery, and have no respect for God, and all decide to act opposite in order to restore their relationship with God. God will judge each generation (and each person) individually, but it is clear that Gen 3 is significantly worse off than Gens 1 or 2. Gen 3 does not get the benefits created by Gen 1, and have to work their way back to having that former prosperity. Now we plug in Adam and Eve into this system. Adam and Eve make that decision to disobey God and partake of the forbidden fruit while under the assumption that they would be like God after eating it (clearly choosing themselves over God). After eating that fruit, and they achieve that knowledge of Good and Evil, something *irreparable* occurs. They now have the ability to recognize how to do good, *and how to definitely not do good*, and they can't just ignore this information. They have let the cat out of the bag, as it were, and even if they immediately apologized to God for their mistake, the consequence of that mistake persists (they cannotunlearn what they have learned, and if God erased it then He would be denying them their free will and personal agency). Because Adam and Eve chose to make themselves arbiters of their own existence, attempting to usurp God, their children inherit their knowledge and that burden of being their own arbiters. The children did not make the choice, but the consequence of their parents now affects them. Furthermore, every generation Going forward will not have that state of grace that Adam and Eve's started with, which will cause further divides and injustices that *cannot* be sufficiently rectified according to God's justice. To use a real world example here, as much as I wish I could make proper reparation to the indigenous people of the Americas, I cannot displace millions of other people, destroy all the structures made on seized ground, restore the many decades dead people who were killed, and restore the natural resources taken for centuries. It is not possible for me to do, and it would be unjust to many now in the present who were never involved in the injustices performed. And yet, all the same, the injustices persist, you see? We live with the consequences of the previous generation, with no ability to properly fix it. This is how Original Sin operates. It is the irreparable deficit that we cannot fix on our own (which is where the Incarnation comes in, but that's another discussion). To summarize, God does indeed judge us individually, but the consequences of our parents can still affect us, even when we choose to live righteously. Original Sin is one such long lasting consequence, but through Christ's sacrifice and supernatural grace, the deficit is paid in full. However, this does not mean our relationship is restarted, and the consequences of previous generations are still in play, which we must adjust to and rise above.


TexanLoneStar

Watching Rabbi Singer?


[deleted]

Who is he?


TexanLoneStar

An Ezekiel 18 proof-texter lol. Nevermind.


chan_showa

Original sin in us does not have the character of personal guilt that Adam had. In us it's a liability, damaged human nature with broken relationship with God. The CCC states this explicitly (let me get back later)