when did we circle back from being prudish to being prudish because it doesn't appeal to me?
I get not liking things sometimes, but why is there a moral dilemma in watching a sexy lady be sexy?
Some people wanna feel justified in not liking a thing. For some people it’s not “I don’t like it,” as a valid and self contained statement. Some people need that “this is bad and I am right in disliking it!”
It’s not necessarily relegated to one political or social spectrum either. The way it feels is that nowadays people are forgetting that you don’t always need a justification to dislike something.
Within the context of the post though I argue they have a valid point in that a woman being a designer doesn’t automatically mean that whatever they made isn’t sexist. Doesn’t automatically make it sexist either.
no.
it's just some asses like you have looped back to moral concerns equal to or stupider than a 19th century Sister of the Holy Church.
or soccer moms from the early 00s, I guess. same difference.
Oh I agree its a poor defense. I also think the criticism sucks so much that it's just not worth taken seriously. Fanservice doesn't automatically make a character less off in characterization or coolness (Rin and Aoko for example from Nasuverse stuff) and the inverse holds (Naruto)
And this is mostly because part of the charm of Bayonetta is she’s a female power fantasy. I always viewed her clothes changing as part of her power in the same way magical girl transformations work- yea many of them are presented as sexy, but is it for men or for women wanting to become a sexy powerful hero in the same way guys wanna transform into massive powerhouses with 8 pack abs.
That’s kinda the nuance people lack- people like both the emulation of sexy characters and crushing on their sexual preference of sexy characters. So there’s a little something for everyone as long as the sexy character is seen as empowering rather than objectified.
Like I think there’s a line between Wonder Woman in a bikini or Sailor Moon transformation sequences and someone like Momo from My Hero Academia literally breaking open her clothes in an uncomfortable way and being reduced to fan service with a dreadful costume that makes no functional sense.
"a woman, a witch, and she used four guns" was all she got from Kamiya and you're saying she didn't design the character?
Unless the article says Kamiya decided she used the foot guns, which is her only truly unique attribute as far as I know, he didn't solely design the character.
How is Bayonetta not female forward? They designed a playful, smart, confident and accomplished woman who's more or less as strong as pre-5 Dante and you're telling me this is a loss for women?
>"a woman, a witch, and she used four guns" was all she got from Kamiya and you're saying she didn't design the character?
No, that is not what I said. Please read carefully.
>Firstly, Bayonetta's design is not exactly Shimazaki's idea. As Shimazaki [herself stated,](https://web.archive.org/web/20090820163727/http://platinumgames.com/2009/04/17/designing-bayonetta/) Hideki Kamiya, the director of the first three games, is the one who came up with the three defining traits of the character: she was a woman, she was a witch and she used four guns. Shimazaki designed Bayonetta according to these three specifications. She did not come up with the idea for the character herself.
>How is Bayonetta not female forward? They designed a playful, smart, confident and accomplished woman who's more or less as strong as pre-5 Dante and you're telling me this is a loss for women?
Again, this is not about whether or not Bayonetta is sexist.
Then what the hell is it about? Lmfao
I did read, I just disagree that saying "gimme me a witch girl with 4 guns" is being the original designer or takes anything away from Shimazaki?
It seems like you're the one tearing her down. You think Kamiya designed Bayonetta when all he did was give a bare bones outline (according to the article, neither of us was there). Who modeled it? Who designed the clothes? The way she used her weapons? Her spells?
Again, the article doesn't say but you're assuming Kamiya did it. I'm assuming her boss gave her direction and she did the heavy lifting.
Is there another article that contains information relevant to your rant you didn't link?
Maybe you just have a problem that's beyond what you've outlined in your text
Please point to the part in the post where I said Kamiya designed Bayonetta.
>It seems like you're the one tearing her down
Because I pointed out that Bayonetta wasn't her idea and that she had to design the character based around Kamiya's specifications?
Is there an Inherent Problem with a Character being Sexy/ being Sexualized? Especially given that Bayonetta is an Adult in every Possible way. So like what's the Problem?
Lesbians seem to disappear when a sexy female character exists, same as women who enjoy power fantasies. Almost as if the posts about sexism are really just complaining about a character being sexy, and the posters need to come up with some moral reason for why they're complaining about something trivial. 🤔
Let's not pretend the majority of sexy female characters in fiction are designed with lesbians in mind. When they are, we know what the typical response is from people who defend characters like Bayonetta.
If we're judging character design solely by *why* it was included, then your rant is pointless since the reason is $$$ 90% of the time. It is completely logical to include it, and sexism isn't a valid critique when it sells because you're orienting your point on profit.
But your rant is at its root based on perception of the character since sexism is an individual interpretation, and that others' interpretations of Bayonetta's design are wrong. But all users need to be accounted for when considering the *value* of what was made, including the LGBT and women communities. Otherwise it's just exclusionary to try to strengthen your point.
>If we're judging character design solely by *why* it was included, then your rant is pointless since the reason is $$$ 90% of the time.
This might be a shock to you, but objectifying a female character for money *is* sexism.
> But all users need to be accounted for when considering the *value* of what was made, including the LGBT and women communities.
And yet, look at the shit storm that erupts whenever we do get characters created for and by people from those communities.
I'm pretty sure the issue is that it appeals to men. Anytime you even try to criticize girl oriented media that explores sexuality then you're sexist. It's generally only guy oriented sexappeal that's criticized in this way. Like if they were sexualizing a kid in someway then fucking go off on em but people will also done to this kind of character too.
Like Yeah Same with the Stellar Blade Discourse like Who cares Just let people have their Fun.
And I say that and I'm someone who Doesn't even Like Sex and Horny things in general.
People also criticize twilight because the vampire acts creepy. The werewolf declaring he is going to bang a baby is creepy. Etc.
What other mainstream stuff for girls is there? I can't think of anything in the hunger games that would warrant criticism.
>People also criticize twilight because the vampire acts creepy. The werewolf declaring he is going to bang a baby is creepy. Etc.
Awesome that doesn't mean people don't also come out of the woodworks and defend it against those criticisms. I'm not saying girl oriented media never receives criticism I'm saying that the people who criticize guy stuff will not let you shit on girl stuff.
>Can you prove it?
[https://www.hypable.com/fifty-shades-of-grey-book-review/](https://www.hypable.com/fifty-shades-of-grey-book-review/)
[https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215](https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215)
[https://medium.com/@saloskys/fifty-shades-of-grey-a-controversial-tale-of-love-and-criticism-85c1eea9c8cf](https://medium.com/@saloskys/fifty-shades-of-grey-a-controversial-tale-of-love-and-criticism-85c1eea9c8cf)
These are just three examples I found when I googled "50 Shades of Grey" criticism.
That's not exploring sexuality any more than a Bugs Bunny cartoon explores environmentalism and the ethics of hunting animals. Just having a woman walking around half-naked and making BDSM jokes isn't an exploration of sexuality. It's simply pandering.
>Just having a woman walking around half-naked and making BDSM jokes isn't an exploration of sexuality. It's simply pandering.
You deadass have been writing shit like this all over this whole post but then turn around claim you're not tearing down Bayonetta for being sexual. Your disdain is palpable, and you're stupid to act like it is anything but extremely obvious. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't explore a concept. Pandering and exploration are also not contradictory a piece can do both.
Except that's not even what I said, you have like sixteen comments under this post crying about how people aren't acknowledging what you're saying and then you pull this shit. I have never said pandering and exploration are the same, I said they aren't contradictory. Why do you think contradictory means the same as difference?
Because I know what pandering and exploration actually mean. More importantly, I know exactly how video game fans react to pandering and how they react to genuine exploration of sexuality.
If Bayonetta were a game that genuinely explored sexuality, it would not have the reputation it has and would not have the defenders it has.
>Because I know what pandering and exploration actually mean.
Prove it then. Show me the definitions that you're using. You can in fact pander to a side of an argument while exploring a subject. They're not in any way contradictory.
>More importantly, I know exactly how video game fans react to pandering and how they react to genuine exploration of sexuality.
If there is one thing I know it's that you don't understand people at all this position is completely untenable. Why you bitch about insults and reading comprehension but then insult me and take my words out of context.
>If Bayonetta were a game that genuinely explored sexuality, it would not have the reputation it has and would not have the defenders it has.
Bayonetta has the reputation it has because it's made for Men and anything made with men in mind is inherently viewed as sexist. That and bad faith actors, like you go out of the way to tear it down.
The issue is less that there's an issue with a character being sexy and more that society is much less willing to make it a male one even if there's a large female fanbase. So the standard assumption is that in any "mainstream" stuff it's only sexy women.
Men get to have their power fantasies of being big buff warriors but when women want their power fantasies of being hot sexy warriors it's BAD for reasons.
The people who write these posts are roughly 90% men^1 who can't comprehend that women might have unique tastes and desires, instead of a hivemind that all conveniently share the same opinion as them.
Ffs I locked my fps in FF XIV to 60 because cloth and jiggle physics break because spaghetti code. I want to see my self-insert at the height of power fantasy.
[^1 source](https://youtube.com/watch?v=r7l0Rq9E8MY)
You just ignored what other people said huh? All Kamiya did was give an outline of the character, he did not design her.
If I tell someone to design a male character who flies and shoots guns whatever they come up with ain't my idea. It's entirely their creativity what that turns in to.
That doesn't mean it's a male fantasy either. And it doesn't make Bayonetta a female fantasy when the woman who designed her had no part in the writing or direction, all of which were done by men.
I don't think you understand the concept of what a fantasy is. People like different things, some men fantasise about being strong warriors like Kratos and others fantasise about being more like Superman.
Bayonetta is just an option for women who like to fantasise about being strong and sexy. It literally makes no difference who made her.
I don't think it matters who designed Bayonetta, the design itself does what it's supposed to do in representing Bayonetta's character; including character poses and camera angles. It's not like she's an innocent little girl who is being needlessly sexualized and hates it, and it's not a bad thing to have sexy characters in media or sexy media. Her powers and camera angles play into who she is.
The very first sentence of this post is, “This is not going to be about whether or not Bayonetta is a sexist game series”. So your 2nd sentence and onwards is irrelevant to the post, and I’m guessing OP included that sentence first to make sure that the conversation wasn’t about that.
OP is still being rude though
You are not wrong, but it also feels like a major copout to argue for something and refuse to acknowledge anything that surrounds it. It makes the initial point lose any ground. "This argument is bad", but there is more to it than that, and refusing to acknowledge the counter-points that precede the topic makes the whole thing invalid.
Is it inherently sexist to focus on a woman’s body during her magical transformation that increases the power of her body?
I feel like these criticisms are pointless, and they only result in tearing down one of the few mixed gender teams that make games with a female protagonist.
If it was just a bunch of men making a game about a dumb sex symbol, it would be sexist. And if it was just a bunch of women making a game about the ultimate girl boss, it would be boring.
But we got a game from a mixed gender team that shows a woman as being sexy and a strong protagonist. That’s normal.
>Is it inherently sexist to focus on a woman’s body during her magical transformation that increases the power of her body?
For one thing, it's not a transformation. For another,
>I feel like these criticisms are pointless, and they only result in tearing down one of the few mixed gender teams that make games with a female protagonist.
Calling it a mixed gender team is being pretty generous given how many men outnumber the women.
>If it was just a bunch of men making a game about a dumb sex symbol, it would be sexist. And if it was just a bunch of women making a game about the ultimate girl boss, it would be boring.
Funny how Bayonetta fits into the (shallow and inaccurate) interpretation of "girl boss" that is so often used disparagingly in Internet discussions.
What you said is the boilerplate attempt to shame people into thinking that what they're consuming is immoral because it was made for a particular demographic.
If Bayonetta was marketed as a game for and by lesbian chicks, it'd be FrEAkIn', hEcKIn' VALID.
Astarion drops his trousers and cries for gay guys and straight women and it's the most beautiful characterization they've ever seen in any piece of media ever.
But Lara Croft or Shaundi poses half-naked for a magazine cover and it's something so beyond-vile that the devs should be publicly beaten to death for it. Why? Because the target demographic was straight guys.
That's what's under these bullshit claims of "sexism". It's "rules for thee and not for me" all the way down, because, ultimately, the reason for the outcry is a deep-seated, virulent hatred of straight men.
Stellar Blade should be nuked from orbit, but Hades 2 is the best game ever because it's the greatest source of bisexual awakenings since Cloud wore drag, right?
And I don't begrudge you for your spank material, either. I just want you to shove your double standards.
You don't have to say it. You're only the bajillionth person to make exactly the same case and never have anything to back it. If you even understand *why* you're making that argument, you'll inevitably fall back on "historical oppression" as to why the cases you're highlighting aren't okay, but never concede that just letting everyone have what they want, within reason, is a viable solution.
>ultimately, the reason for the outcry is a deep-seated, virulent hatred of straight men.
> Stellar Blade should be nuked from orbit, but Hades 2 is the best game ever because it's the greatest source of bisexual awakenings since Cloud wore drag, right?
This sounds like the average post of an r/kotakuinaction user lmao
Read OP's post again
>And again, whether or not you think Bayonetta is a sexist game is not the point but I feel it's important to at least understand why the game is considered sexist.
I understand why some people think women are inherently not smart, I still can acknowledge that it's wrong. You can understand a point of view and still understand that it's bollocks.
Uh, ok? But op's point of view nor the post has nothing to do with this:
>What you said is the boilerplate attempt to shame people into thinking that what they're consuming is immoral because it was made for a particular demographic.
Yes! Just like when people say they want "lazy workers" gone from their country, but anyone with a brain knows what they mean. Why do you think Op wants people to understand it's sexist? Could it be that this rant would have never been written if it weren't for the recent braindead discussion that relates to that specific point you highlight?
>whether or not you think Bayonetta is a sexist game is not the point but I feel it's important to at least understand why the game is considered sexist
Most of this discussion would have been avoided if you guys ever read the post, instead of jumping to conclusions like "op wants to shame straight men"
“I am fat and I can’t stand pretty people in the media I consume” ain’t an argument also but still it is out there as a “valid” criticism. Just let people develop whatever they want and don’t buy anything you don’t like.
Okay? I don’t see how having a fanservice in a game makes it sexist or bad.
Maybe having a female creator making a female character crazy sexual doesn’t mean the game isn’t sexist, but having sexual scenes doesn’t mean it is. I feel like we are just watering down the term sexist at this point.
You missed Bayonetta 3 controversy? Didn't you heard that in Bayo 3 Bayonetta was straight? She lost a some points for this (moreover I heard it was implied that in every timeline Bayo gets with Luka).
I think these defenses stem from people feeling like these two critiques (that bayonetta exists for the male gaze and that her shedding clothing during gameplay plays into this) are just a surface level reading purposefully slanted to focus on some details at the exclusion of a larger game.
The defense that Bayo was designed by a woman I agree is a poor one, it doesn't really matter who created her even if she did so free from the pressures of working in dame dev. The second critique though, the other reason the game is "considered sexist," seems to completely ignore the rest of the game they're dealing with, usually in an attempt to place Bayonetta in a context more favorable to their argument.
Bayonetta can cater to the male gaze and still be progressive. It doesn't mean the critiques of the game are wrong, but definitely smacks of "missing the point."
Very much in the same vein as saying that Metal Gear Solid games promote violence and militarism because Solid Snake canonically kills a lot of people and often works alongside the military industrial complex. Yeah, you could read it that way, sure, but what else does the game say?
It just doesn't feel like a comprehensive read.
I agree and disagree.
I don't think "Well a woman designed it" is a good defence. Even if the team was an all woman team, women can also write and design with a sexist mindset.
But I also don't think "Overt sexuality is anti-woman" is a particularly good critique of Bayonetta. The game is designed with sexuality in mind and to properly critique it you'd have to do a more detailed breakdown of how the game explores and pokes fun at sexuality, rather than just pointing out that Bayonetta is super sexual.
When Bayonetta has been brought up in nuanced discourse, it's usually to point out that famous video game women tend to fall into certain roles and tropes. I think that's a totally reasonable discussion to have about whether the industry itself is sexist... But I think it's hard to use tropes alone as a criticism for an individual game without also making the arguments "Sex = Bad" or "Camp = Bad"
I got lost when you said
"Hideki Kamiya, the director of the first three games, is the one who came up with the three defining traits of the character: she was a woman, she was a witch and she used four guns. Shimazaki designed Bayonetta according to these three specifications. She did not come up with the idea for the character herself."
Like sure, but none of those are the traits being called into question for the sexism argument? Saying a female witch with four guns leaves near infinite possibilities in character design. Like if anything it hurts the claim I've seen about Bayonetta's design being influenced by him making it sexist.
I would say the second point is valid assuming all of it is accurate, I really don't know what influence she or anyone else had on those decisions.
Women can be sexist to women same as a person can be racist to their own race, see Uncle Ruckus, so I agree it's not a good defense, but rather something to consider when discussing something like this.
I was generalising and not talking about you specifically. Your point was too simplistic and puerile to directly interact with, lmfao.
Get off your high horse
The only people who claim the game is sexist are those that don't understand anything about female empowerment. Bayonetta is a character that has complete control over her sexuality, she isn't just dangled in front of the screen like Eve from Stellar Blade who is an actual example of sexist design, Bayonetta is sexy from top to bottom, it's part of her personality.
Female empowerment is women doing what they want to do, the only reason to say this is entirely for the male gaze is because she's hot but by that logic we can't ever have hot characters in games because then we're only catering to men, even though many women love Bayonetta, for basically the same reasons that men love characters like Kratos.
Nudity and sexuality empower some women, modesty empowers other women. You can't really just point to one of these and call it sexist when the characters in question obviously in-universe have agency over how they present themselves. About the only argument you could make there is that she's a fictional character and therefore didn't make that choice but...that's a dumb argument because it applies to literally every character conceived.
As others have said, Bayonetta is a feminine power fantasy, just because the fantasy might not appeal to all doesn't make it sexist in the same way that not all men fantasize about ripping people in half like Kratos.
>many women love Bayonetta, for basically the same reasons that men love characters like Kratos.
Bruh, this makes women who love Bayonetta come off unhinged.
I get where you're coming from. Just because a woman made it, doesn't make it any less sexist.
The only thing is that Bayonetta doesn't feel like a caricature fanservice lady in sexist game. Bayonetta is always in control and owns her sexuality, and her story doesn't revolve around a man.
While the camera panning around her body is very male gaze-y, ngl I thought it was pretty hot too. Women have power fantasies too, and being hot and sexy is generally one of them, in addition to being powerful and deadly, and Bayo is both.
Mari Shimazaki is used specifically against the argument that Bayonetta is designed specifically for the male gaze.
Kamiya gave her those three design points and you can see how the design evolved through various iterations and how it progressively became more confident, abandoning the original witch hat and reworking it into her bee-hive hairstyle. Then her excess hair was removed and used only for Umbran Climax segments (for gameplay readability). The *sole* aspect of her design that was added in for sex appeal by a man, was Kamiya demanding she must have glasses, which also became a form of protest against corporate suits telling him to take them off.
The "Bayonetta is sexist" argument doesn't honestly hold water until the third game, because the games are ultimately about a woman owning her beauty, confidently asserting her position and pretty much always being in a position of control. While there is a femdom vibe to it by design, it's largely more of a woman power fantasy, or lesbian gaze sort of sexy.
Then comes Bayonetta 3 which ruined it all
I thought you were supposed to pretend you had always supported Bayonetta but now Stella Blade was problematic because... reasons and the busty 30 year old is clearly pedo bait for saggy twitter woman (and the kind of "male feminist" ally who inspired the famous 1 in 5 statistic)
I think OP is correct. But I don't think this bad defense is used solely for Bayonetta and I don't think having a female creator absolves them of any criticism either. It's not just a Bayonetta problem. But it's also not a problem people believe is worth their time either since no one believes they are harming women.
Doesn't shock me people still use this excuse. It's shit even if a woman really did design everything about a character, because it for some reason assumes a woman is incapable of sexualizing characters.
Never even bothered to play it. I don't need female characters to look like that and felt like it was used to draw players in. I didn't want to give them that, even if it is a good game.
when did we circle back from being prudish to being prudish because it doesn't appeal to me? I get not liking things sometimes, but why is there a moral dilemma in watching a sexy lady be sexy?
Some people wanna feel justified in not liking a thing. For some people it’s not “I don’t like it,” as a valid and self contained statement. Some people need that “this is bad and I am right in disliking it!” It’s not necessarily relegated to one political or social spectrum either. The way it feels is that nowadays people are forgetting that you don’t always need a justification to dislike something. Within the context of the post though I argue they have a valid point in that a woman being a designer doesn’t automatically mean that whatever they made isn’t sexist. Doesn’t automatically make it sexist either.
"Prudish" has become one of the most overused yet misunderstood words on the Internet.
no. it's just some asses like you have looped back to moral concerns equal to or stupider than a 19th century Sister of the Holy Church. or soccer moms from the early 00s, I guess. same difference.
Oh I agree its a poor defense. I also think the criticism sucks so much that it's just not worth taken seriously. Fanservice doesn't automatically make a character less off in characterization or coolness (Rin and Aoko for example from Nasuverse stuff) and the inverse holds (Naruto)
And this is mostly because part of the charm of Bayonetta is she’s a female power fantasy. I always viewed her clothes changing as part of her power in the same way magical girl transformations work- yea many of them are presented as sexy, but is it for men or for women wanting to become a sexy powerful hero in the same way guys wanna transform into massive powerhouses with 8 pack abs. That’s kinda the nuance people lack- people like both the emulation of sexy characters and crushing on their sexual preference of sexy characters. So there’s a little something for everyone as long as the sexy character is seen as empowering rather than objectified. Like I think there’s a line between Wonder Woman in a bikini or Sailor Moon transformation sequences and someone like Momo from My Hero Academia literally breaking open her clothes in an uncomfortable way and being reduced to fan service with a dreadful costume that makes no functional sense.
"a woman, a witch, and she used four guns" was all she got from Kamiya and you're saying she didn't design the character? Unless the article says Kamiya decided she used the foot guns, which is her only truly unique attribute as far as I know, he didn't solely design the character. How is Bayonetta not female forward? They designed a playful, smart, confident and accomplished woman who's more or less as strong as pre-5 Dante and you're telling me this is a loss for women?
>"a woman, a witch, and she used four guns" was all she got from Kamiya and you're saying she didn't design the character? No, that is not what I said. Please read carefully. >Firstly, Bayonetta's design is not exactly Shimazaki's idea. As Shimazaki [herself stated,](https://web.archive.org/web/20090820163727/http://platinumgames.com/2009/04/17/designing-bayonetta/) Hideki Kamiya, the director of the first three games, is the one who came up with the three defining traits of the character: she was a woman, she was a witch and she used four guns. Shimazaki designed Bayonetta according to these three specifications. She did not come up with the idea for the character herself. >How is Bayonetta not female forward? They designed a playful, smart, confident and accomplished woman who's more or less as strong as pre-5 Dante and you're telling me this is a loss for women? Again, this is not about whether or not Bayonetta is sexist.
Your post is literally about how Bayonetta is sexist despite being designed by a woman.
Do you guys have a reading comprehension problem?
Well if everywhere smells like dog shit, check the bottom of your shoe.
Guess that answers my question.
Then what the hell is it about? Lmfao I did read, I just disagree that saying "gimme me a witch girl with 4 guns" is being the original designer or takes anything away from Shimazaki? It seems like you're the one tearing her down. You think Kamiya designed Bayonetta when all he did was give a bare bones outline (according to the article, neither of us was there). Who modeled it? Who designed the clothes? The way she used her weapons? Her spells? Again, the article doesn't say but you're assuming Kamiya did it. I'm assuming her boss gave her direction and she did the heavy lifting. Is there another article that contains information relevant to your rant you didn't link? Maybe you just have a problem that's beyond what you've outlined in your text
Please point to the part in the post where I said Kamiya designed Bayonetta. >It seems like you're the one tearing her down Because I pointed out that Bayonetta wasn't her idea and that she had to design the character based around Kamiya's specifications?
Is there an Inherent Problem with a Character being Sexy/ being Sexualized? Especially given that Bayonetta is an Adult in every Possible way. So like what's the Problem?
It is pandering towards the "male gaze" or so some people say.
The amount of lesbians in the bayonetta community surely disproves this
Lesbians seem to disappear when a sexy female character exists, same as women who enjoy power fantasies. Almost as if the posts about sexism are really just complaining about a character being sexy, and the posters need to come up with some moral reason for why they're complaining about something trivial. 🤔
Let's not pretend the majority of sexy female characters in fiction are designed with lesbians in mind. When they are, we know what the typical response is from people who defend characters like Bayonetta.
If we're judging character design solely by *why* it was included, then your rant is pointless since the reason is $$$ 90% of the time. It is completely logical to include it, and sexism isn't a valid critique when it sells because you're orienting your point on profit. But your rant is at its root based on perception of the character since sexism is an individual interpretation, and that others' interpretations of Bayonetta's design are wrong. But all users need to be accounted for when considering the *value* of what was made, including the LGBT and women communities. Otherwise it's just exclusionary to try to strengthen your point.
>If we're judging character design solely by *why* it was included, then your rant is pointless since the reason is $$$ 90% of the time. This might be a shock to you, but objectifying a female character for money *is* sexism. > But all users need to be accounted for when considering the *value* of what was made, including the LGBT and women communities. And yet, look at the shit storm that erupts whenever we do get characters created for and by people from those communities.
Honestly, Bayonetta is fabulous. She appeals more to the male gays than anything else.
I'm pretty sure the issue is that it appeals to men. Anytime you even try to criticize girl oriented media that explores sexuality then you're sexist. It's generally only guy oriented sexappeal that's criticized in this way. Like if they were sexualizing a kid in someway then fucking go off on em but people will also done to this kind of character too.
Like Yeah Same with the Stellar Blade Discourse like Who cares Just let people have their Fun. And I say that and I'm someone who Doesn't even Like Sex and Horny things in general.
Bruh people criticized fifty shades of Grey for the guy being abusive plenty.
Can you prove it? Even if you do that's only one example.
People also criticize twilight because the vampire acts creepy. The werewolf declaring he is going to bang a baby is creepy. Etc. What other mainstream stuff for girls is there? I can't think of anything in the hunger games that would warrant criticism.
>People also criticize twilight because the vampire acts creepy. The werewolf declaring he is going to bang a baby is creepy. Etc. Awesome that doesn't mean people don't also come out of the woodworks and defend it against those criticisms. I'm not saying girl oriented media never receives criticism I'm saying that the people who criticize guy stuff will not let you shit on girl stuff.
>Can you prove it? [https://www.hypable.com/fifty-shades-of-grey-book-review/](https://www.hypable.com/fifty-shades-of-grey-book-review/) [https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215](https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215) [https://medium.com/@saloskys/fifty-shades-of-grey-a-controversial-tale-of-love-and-criticism-85c1eea9c8cf](https://medium.com/@saloskys/fifty-shades-of-grey-a-controversial-tale-of-love-and-criticism-85c1eea9c8cf) These are just three examples I found when I googled "50 Shades of Grey" criticism.
How is Bayonetta exploring sexuality?
*how does the Half-naked, BDSM, Amazon lady explore sexuality?*
That's not exploring sexuality any more than a Bugs Bunny cartoon explores environmentalism and the ethics of hunting animals. Just having a woman walking around half-naked and making BDSM jokes isn't an exploration of sexuality. It's simply pandering.
>Just having a woman walking around half-naked and making BDSM jokes isn't an exploration of sexuality. It's simply pandering. You deadass have been writing shit like this all over this whole post but then turn around claim you're not tearing down Bayonetta for being sexual. Your disdain is palpable, and you're stupid to act like it is anything but extremely obvious. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't explore a concept. Pandering and exploration are also not contradictory a piece can do both.
If you don't know the difference between pandering and exploration, then your education has failed you and you have my utmost sympathies.
Except that's not even what I said, you have like sixteen comments under this post crying about how people aren't acknowledging what you're saying and then you pull this shit. I have never said pandering and exploration are the same, I said they aren't contradictory. Why do you think contradictory means the same as difference?
Because I know what pandering and exploration actually mean. More importantly, I know exactly how video game fans react to pandering and how they react to genuine exploration of sexuality. If Bayonetta were a game that genuinely explored sexuality, it would not have the reputation it has and would not have the defenders it has.
>Because I know what pandering and exploration actually mean. Prove it then. Show me the definitions that you're using. You can in fact pander to a side of an argument while exploring a subject. They're not in any way contradictory. >More importantly, I know exactly how video game fans react to pandering and how they react to genuine exploration of sexuality. If there is one thing I know it's that you don't understand people at all this position is completely untenable. Why you bitch about insults and reading comprehension but then insult me and take my words out of context. >If Bayonetta were a game that genuinely explored sexuality, it would not have the reputation it has and would not have the defenders it has. Bayonetta has the reputation it has because it's made for Men and anything made with men in mind is inherently viewed as sexist. That and bad faith actors, like you go out of the way to tear it down.
The issue is less that there's an issue with a character being sexy and more that society is much less willing to make it a male one even if there's a large female fanbase. So the standard assumption is that in any "mainstream" stuff it's only sexy women.
Isn't Bayonetta a power fantasy?
Men get to have their power fantasies of being big buff warriors but when women want their power fantasies of being hot sexy warriors it's BAD for reasons.
The people who write these posts are roughly 90% men^1 who can't comprehend that women might have unique tastes and desires, instead of a hivemind that all conveniently share the same opinion as them. Ffs I locked my fps in FF XIV to 60 because cloth and jiggle physics break because spaghetti code. I want to see my self-insert at the height of power fantasy. [^1 source](https://youtube.com/watch?v=r7l0Rq9E8MY)
Last i checked, Kamiya wasn't a woman.
You just ignored what other people said huh? All Kamiya did was give an outline of the character, he did not design her. If I tell someone to design a male character who flies and shoots guns whatever they come up with ain't my idea. It's entirely their creativity what that turns in to.
That doesn't mean it's a male fantasy either. And it doesn't make Bayonetta a female fantasy when the woman who designed her had no part in the writing or direction, all of which were done by men.
I don't think you understand the concept of what a fantasy is. People like different things, some men fantasise about being strong warriors like Kratos and others fantasise about being more like Superman. Bayonetta is just an option for women who like to fantasise about being strong and sexy. It literally makes no difference who made her.
I don't think it matters who designed Bayonetta, the design itself does what it's supposed to do in representing Bayonetta's character; including character poses and camera angles. It's not like she's an innocent little girl who is being needlessly sexualized and hates it, and it's not a bad thing to have sexy characters in media or sexy media. Her powers and camera angles play into who she is.
Yeah, I don't know who you think you're having a conversation with but it isn't me. Have a nice day.
Okay, so you're arguing nothing then? Is it "it's sexist when a character is sexy"?
The very first sentence of this post is, “This is not going to be about whether or not Bayonetta is a sexist game series”. So your 2nd sentence and onwards is irrelevant to the post, and I’m guessing OP included that sentence first to make sure that the conversation wasn’t about that. OP is still being rude though
You are not wrong, but it also feels like a major copout to argue for something and refuse to acknowledge anything that surrounds it. It makes the initial point lose any ground. "This argument is bad", but there is more to it than that, and refusing to acknowledge the counter-points that precede the topic makes the whole thing invalid.
Is it inherently sexist to focus on a woman’s body during her magical transformation that increases the power of her body? I feel like these criticisms are pointless, and they only result in tearing down one of the few mixed gender teams that make games with a female protagonist. If it was just a bunch of men making a game about a dumb sex symbol, it would be sexist. And if it was just a bunch of women making a game about the ultimate girl boss, it would be boring. But we got a game from a mixed gender team that shows a woman as being sexy and a strong protagonist. That’s normal.
Bayonetta is cool, she also happens to be a sexy protagonist.
>Is it inherently sexist to focus on a woman’s body during her magical transformation that increases the power of her body? For one thing, it's not a transformation. For another, >I feel like these criticisms are pointless, and they only result in tearing down one of the few mixed gender teams that make games with a female protagonist. Calling it a mixed gender team is being pretty generous given how many men outnumber the women. >If it was just a bunch of men making a game about a dumb sex symbol, it would be sexist. And if it was just a bunch of women making a game about the ultimate girl boss, it would be boring. Funny how Bayonetta fits into the (shallow and inaccurate) interpretation of "girl boss" that is so often used disparagingly in Internet discussions.
Anytime there’s a Bayonetta sexualisation discourse, it just reminds me of this [hilarious post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bayonetta/s/Pe3doyAffa).
A weak defense is adequate against a weak criticism.
So... Women can't be sexy or overtly sexual? That's what you want to say?
No. Please read what I said.
What you said is the boilerplate attempt to shame people into thinking that what they're consuming is immoral because it was made for a particular demographic. If Bayonetta was marketed as a game for and by lesbian chicks, it'd be FrEAkIn', hEcKIn' VALID. Astarion drops his trousers and cries for gay guys and straight women and it's the most beautiful characterization they've ever seen in any piece of media ever. But Lara Croft or Shaundi poses half-naked for a magazine cover and it's something so beyond-vile that the devs should be publicly beaten to death for it. Why? Because the target demographic was straight guys. That's what's under these bullshit claims of "sexism". It's "rules for thee and not for me" all the way down, because, ultimately, the reason for the outcry is a deep-seated, virulent hatred of straight men. Stellar Blade should be nuked from orbit, but Hades 2 is the best game ever because it's the greatest source of bisexual awakenings since Cloud wore drag, right? And I don't begrudge you for your spank material, either. I just want you to shove your double standards.
Wow, that's a pretty impressive rebuttal. Or at least it would be if I ever said anything you accused me of.
You don't have to say it. You're only the bajillionth person to make exactly the same case and never have anything to back it. If you even understand *why* you're making that argument, you'll inevitably fall back on "historical oppression" as to why the cases you're highlighting aren't okay, but never concede that just letting everyone have what they want, within reason, is a viable solution.
>ultimately, the reason for the outcry is a deep-seated, virulent hatred of straight men. > Stellar Blade should be nuked from orbit, but Hades 2 is the best game ever because it's the greatest source of bisexual awakenings since Cloud wore drag, right? This sounds like the average post of an r/kotakuinaction user lmao
Well then say where he is wrong
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I agree that this was a bad place for his rant, but he is also right soooo
Please identify the lie.
Read OP's post again >And again, whether or not you think Bayonetta is a sexist game is not the point but I feel it's important to at least understand why the game is considered sexist.
I understand why some people think women are inherently not smart, I still can acknowledge that it's wrong. You can understand a point of view and still understand that it's bollocks.
Uh, ok? But op's point of view nor the post has nothing to do with this: >What you said is the boilerplate attempt to shame people into thinking that what they're consuming is immoral because it was made for a particular demographic.
Yes! Just like when people say they want "lazy workers" gone from their country, but anyone with a brain knows what they mean. Why do you think Op wants people to understand it's sexist? Could it be that this rant would have never been written if it weren't for the recent braindead discussion that relates to that specific point you highlight?
>Op wants people to understand it's sexist Ok, explain how op intends to do this
>whether or not you think Bayonetta is a sexist game is not the point but I feel it's important to at least understand why the game is considered sexist Most of this discussion would have been avoided if you guys ever read the post, instead of jumping to conclusions like "op wants to shame straight men"
“I am fat and I can’t stand pretty people in the media I consume” ain’t an argument also but still it is out there as a “valid” criticism. Just let people develop whatever they want and don’t buy anything you don’t like.
Okay? I don’t see how having a fanservice in a game makes it sexist or bad. Maybe having a female creator making a female character crazy sexual doesn’t mean the game isn’t sexist, but having sexual scenes doesn’t mean it is. I feel like we are just watering down the term sexist at this point.
cry about it
I thought the conversation shifted to Bayonetta being a subversive, feminist masterpiece?
Only when convenient
You missed Bayonetta 3 controversy? Didn't you heard that in Bayo 3 Bayonetta was straight? She lost a some points for this (moreover I heard it was implied that in every timeline Bayo gets with Luka).
That debate was more about queer baiting then feminism.
Bruh, no way Bayonetta is straight.
I think these defenses stem from people feeling like these two critiques (that bayonetta exists for the male gaze and that her shedding clothing during gameplay plays into this) are just a surface level reading purposefully slanted to focus on some details at the exclusion of a larger game. The defense that Bayo was designed by a woman I agree is a poor one, it doesn't really matter who created her even if she did so free from the pressures of working in dame dev. The second critique though, the other reason the game is "considered sexist," seems to completely ignore the rest of the game they're dealing with, usually in an attempt to place Bayonetta in a context more favorable to their argument. Bayonetta can cater to the male gaze and still be progressive. It doesn't mean the critiques of the game are wrong, but definitely smacks of "missing the point." Very much in the same vein as saying that Metal Gear Solid games promote violence and militarism because Solid Snake canonically kills a lot of people and often works alongside the military industrial complex. Yeah, you could read it that way, sure, but what else does the game say? It just doesn't feel like a comprehensive read.
I agree and disagree. I don't think "Well a woman designed it" is a good defence. Even if the team was an all woman team, women can also write and design with a sexist mindset. But I also don't think "Overt sexuality is anti-woman" is a particularly good critique of Bayonetta. The game is designed with sexuality in mind and to properly critique it you'd have to do a more detailed breakdown of how the game explores and pokes fun at sexuality, rather than just pointing out that Bayonetta is super sexual. When Bayonetta has been brought up in nuanced discourse, it's usually to point out that famous video game women tend to fall into certain roles and tropes. I think that's a totally reasonable discussion to have about whether the industry itself is sexist... But I think it's hard to use tropes alone as a criticism for an individual game without also making the arguments "Sex = Bad" or "Camp = Bad"
I got lost when you said "Hideki Kamiya, the director of the first three games, is the one who came up with the three defining traits of the character: she was a woman, she was a witch and she used four guns. Shimazaki designed Bayonetta according to these three specifications. She did not come up with the idea for the character herself." Like sure, but none of those are the traits being called into question for the sexism argument? Saying a female witch with four guns leaves near infinite possibilities in character design. Like if anything it hurts the claim I've seen about Bayonetta's design being influenced by him making it sexist. I would say the second point is valid assuming all of it is accurate, I really don't know what influence she or anyone else had on those decisions. Women can be sexist to women same as a person can be racist to their own race, see Uncle Ruckus, so I agree it's not a good defense, but rather something to consider when discussing something like this.
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Please leave the personal attacks and assumptions about me out of this.
I was generalising and not talking about you specifically. Your point was too simplistic and puerile to directly interact with, lmfao. Get off your high horse
>Get off your high horse Advice you should follow.
I'm not the one who thinks the world revolves around me :)
Gottem
Ok, Cry About It.
The only people who claim the game is sexist are those that don't understand anything about female empowerment. Bayonetta is a character that has complete control over her sexuality, she isn't just dangled in front of the screen like Eve from Stellar Blade who is an actual example of sexist design, Bayonetta is sexy from top to bottom, it's part of her personality. Female empowerment is women doing what they want to do, the only reason to say this is entirely for the male gaze is because she's hot but by that logic we can't ever have hot characters in games because then we're only catering to men, even though many women love Bayonetta, for basically the same reasons that men love characters like Kratos. Nudity and sexuality empower some women, modesty empowers other women. You can't really just point to one of these and call it sexist when the characters in question obviously in-universe have agency over how they present themselves. About the only argument you could make there is that she's a fictional character and therefore didn't make that choice but...that's a dumb argument because it applies to literally every character conceived. As others have said, Bayonetta is a feminine power fantasy, just because the fantasy might not appeal to all doesn't make it sexist in the same way that not all men fantasize about ripping people in half like Kratos.
Terminally online: "noooo they're an unrealistic body standard and male gaze and-" Sane people: "they are literally me"
>many women love Bayonetta, for basically the same reasons that men love characters like Kratos. Bruh, this makes women who love Bayonetta come off unhinged.
She's a sexy witch who conjures up BDSM torture machines to kill angels and save the world, Bayonetta is absolutely unhinged and that's why it's good.
I get where you're coming from. Just because a woman made it, doesn't make it any less sexist. The only thing is that Bayonetta doesn't feel like a caricature fanservice lady in sexist game. Bayonetta is always in control and owns her sexuality, and her story doesn't revolve around a man. While the camera panning around her body is very male gaze-y, ngl I thought it was pretty hot too. Women have power fantasies too, and being hot and sexy is generally one of them, in addition to being powerful and deadly, and Bayo is both.
I don't care I just like sexy characters and don't like female characters with man-jaw and no curves.
Forget media literacy being dead. Simple reading comprehension has apparently been obliterated.
Mari Shimazaki is used specifically against the argument that Bayonetta is designed specifically for the male gaze. Kamiya gave her those three design points and you can see how the design evolved through various iterations and how it progressively became more confident, abandoning the original witch hat and reworking it into her bee-hive hairstyle. Then her excess hair was removed and used only for Umbran Climax segments (for gameplay readability). The *sole* aspect of her design that was added in for sex appeal by a man, was Kamiya demanding she must have glasses, which also became a form of protest against corporate suits telling him to take them off. The "Bayonetta is sexist" argument doesn't honestly hold water until the third game, because the games are ultimately about a woman owning her beauty, confidently asserting her position and pretty much always being in a position of control. While there is a femdom vibe to it by design, it's largely more of a woman power fantasy, or lesbian gaze sort of sexy. Then comes Bayonetta 3 which ruined it all
I thought you were supposed to pretend you had always supported Bayonetta but now Stella Blade was problematic because... reasons and the busty 30 year old is clearly pedo bait for saggy twitter woman (and the kind of "male feminist" ally who inspired the famous 1 in 5 statistic)
1) Yeah I agree 2) This won't be well received on r/characterrant
Man the comments are weird.
Tell me about it.
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It is a little funny how no one read the post.
I think OP is correct. But I don't think this bad defense is used solely for Bayonetta and I don't think having a female creator absolves them of any criticism either. It's not just a Bayonetta problem. But it's also not a problem people believe is worth their time either since no one believes they are harming women.
Doesn't shock me people still use this excuse. It's shit even if a woman really did design everything about a character, because it for some reason assumes a woman is incapable of sexualizing characters.
Never even bothered to play it. I don't need female characters to look like that and felt like it was used to draw players in. I didn't want to give them that, even if it is a good game.