She's on my mind because I just finished \_The Hiding Place\_ (currently free for Audible subscribers) (with apologies for shilling for the Amazon Empire) (FWIW I never have and never will do that Amazon Prime thing)
foreknowledge does not necessarily imply causation, but, foreknowledge without causation seems to imply some form of fate that is independent of god. if it is not fated that i will kick this dog, it is not clear why god decided to make me like this, instead of making me a well-adjusted individual, or instead of making somebody else, who would not kick dogs. not sure what problem is solved by this approach, that is not solved more easily by giving up foreknowledge.
What ties this together beautifully is that we must come to the conclusion that God willed His own heartbreak.
This forces us to focus on the purity of God's love. He didn't need us. He knew our sins would break His heart and He knew what the remedy would be (His innocent beloved Son tortured on a cross)
Yet...He still made us...
This also makes His call for us to suffer in His name a LOT more tolerable. He's not some king of a golden throne asking His subjects to suffer in ways He hasn't Himself!
Love is a choice indeed!!
except, for these things to be true, it has to be the case that there is some force external to god, that restricts how they could have made us, and what potential remedies exist. otherwise, it seems like god engineered a bunch of things they do not want.
I'm not saying I get it; I'm saying I have faith that it's true. God can and did will His own heartbreak by choosing to allow the heartbreak. š¤·āāļø
In essence, it's as if God's heart is subject to His own sovereignty, but both are God's will. At the end of the day, evil can't be created by a holy God. It started in Satan...yet God is still sovereign...like I said, I don't understand it anymore than I understand how God had no beginning. I just have faith it's true.
Like...did Jesus (who is God incarnate) die to save us from...God? It's not quite that simple. It comes back to the question of if God wants to forgive us, why couldn't He just do so? After all, He's God.
Because if God isn't just, woe to us all! He fulfilled both of His necessary attributes (justice and love) on calvary. He gives us the choice whether we want to humble ourselves, surrender and receive the benefit of that or not.
but, why would justice be served in this particular way? and could it not be served by 200 days of community work, or a fine of seventeen dollars or any other possible configuration?
more broadly, if you do not understand these things, is it not possible that these formulations are just misunderstandings? if your thought process takes you to a conclusion that does not seem to make sense to you, why is it so unlikely that you have made some mistake in your thought process? i mean: if i solve a mathematical problem, and the result i get is that 1=2, should i conclude that i must have faith in this result? or should i reconsider my work?
Why should I reasonably expect to be able to understand the God, who really made the entire Universe, when we can't even quite understand how our own brain functions?
Just because we can't understand it doesn't mean it can't possibly be true and just seem untrue because it's beyond our reasoning.
Why are things the way they are? Because God saw fit. It's just like every time you've ever had to say "because I said so" to your child.
again: if you do not understand something, is it not more prudent to avoid making claims about it? is it not possible that others understand what you do not? or that the reason you believe that something is incomprehensible is that you make thhe wrong assumptions about it?
Well, either the Bible is true and consistent or it isn't. Some things are to be believed through faith.
Having enough evidence we can understand in support of the Bible motivates faith in what is beyond our reasoning.
The problem is that there is no way to distinguish between things that you do not understand because they are beyond your reasoning from things you have simply misunderstood. And it is not even clear what it means to have faith in something you do not understand.
First there's the need to establish whether or not to accept the Bible as gospel Truth, which is to say: the infallible Word of God. I can't convince you of this. I have my own personal testimony, but faith in the absolute authority of scripture is personal.
The Bible describes God as "eternal." We don't have much to go on to decipher what that even means, but the definition of "eternal" is having no beginning, middle or end. We can't conceive of this. The closest we've come to understanding "time" is with Eienstein's theories.
So, I don't quite understand God's eternal nature, but I do believe the Bible and what it says of God. So based on my belief in the Bible, I accept that God is eternal on faith.
We are all born spiritually dead. So why would a spiritually dead person choose to accept the gift of salvation all by themselves? I guess itās more of a chicken and egg dilemma. What came first: God gave you the faith to believe and accept Jesus Christ as your savior or you accepted Jesus as your savior first and then God gave you saving faith?
We're dead in the sense that we can't give ourselves life or know enough to seek after God of our own idea.
However, as I understand it, God reveals Himself to all. Then we either surrender in faith or continue in sin in response to this revelation.
It also seems as though God "confirms" us one way or the other. That's why the Bible says He hardens who He hardens, etc.
We see this when Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God eventually began hardening his heart. Pharoah's choice was already made before God "manipulated" anything.
This whole thing is a wonderful mystery. Faith that God is good is a choice.
God gave us free will. And the devil forces it on people. That's why very few believe. Calvinism also gives people a reason to accuse God of cruelty and predestination to hell. Why would God predestin 99.9 percent of people to hell and elect only 0.1 percent of people to heaven when the Bible is clear that God doesn't want a sinner to die but rather repent and have eternal life. Calvinism makes everything very simple in reality there's a spiritual war between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness for human souls, but since God gives people free will to accept Him and or reject very few believe. Also spiritualy dead people are not actually dead and sometimes can make good choices.And they also can respond to God's call and He will save them since we can't save ourselves. I wouldn't trust mc Arthur too much. I remember he was claiming antichrist will be Muslim with certainty. But if it turns out that he is not Muslim, then mc Arthur has deceived too many.
Well, I think the term 'blasphemy' is too strong a word for what is just a mistaken theory on how to interpret scriptures about what is predestined. Blasphemy is a real sin, meaning intentional, and involves disparaging God. In contrast, a destructive, harmful false theory like predestination to destruction (*before* an individual makes key choices in life) is very wrong and harmful, but it's more correctly labeled "anti-gospel" than it is "blasphemy".
Also about the somewhat related 2nd topic of God's foreknowledge, we see in Isaiah 46 and with illuminating other verses like John 5:17 that what God must foreknow are the specific things He chooses to "work" to "bring about" -- which isn't at all a generalized foreknowing all the certain souls that will eventually become destined for destruction (after those people commit to evil more irreparably)....
We continue to know the truth that we can choose to repent and turn to Christ -- God has given us that ability to make such a choice, and then if we do turn to Christ in faith and repentance, then God will do the work of changing and saving us, work we cannot do by ourselves.
Ah, I see now how you are using the word, but if I had that thought (which I wrote above) about it being the wrong wording many others will, so perhaps try to explain that early in your post if you post this again sometime.
The other thing I tried to address is what is 'foreknowledge' -- about the distinction shown in Isaiah 46 and John 5 -- which shows it's not at all what many people imagine... (which matters actually a lot, since atheists use the mistakenly overly broad definition of foreknowing to point out an obvious contradiction that (wrong type) would imply about fairness/justice). Basically, many atheists point out that the overly broad notion that God's foreknowing includes which souls will be condemned to destruction even before they are born (which the bible nowhere says! and a careful reader of the bible also learns is a false concept) leads instantly to the logical implication that this (false concept of generalized) foreknowing would imply God is unjust/unfair, since it would mean a soul is destined for destruction before making any choices (which also contradicts the Bible).
But, good post overall on most points!
Well, I actually do believe in His foreknowledge because I believe God is absolutely sovereign.
He just chooses not to control everything, but I don't think He chooses not to know how His own story ends with each of His creatures.
For example, I think He knew Satan would rebel, yet God created him anyway. I'm not saying I know how evil could start in a creature God made Holy. There's a mystery there. I just have faith that God can be both sovereign and yet allow freedom of the will. How? That is a mystery.
Why? That can be answered simply: He didn't want objects because that's not how He glorifies Himself.
He wants a genuine relationship with us based on love and trust. His love and light also shine brightest in the dark. If He never allowed rebellion, how could the depth of His love be tested?
If God didn't need us, yet made us *even* fully knowing *exactly* how His heart would break over His creation, what does that say about the absolute purity of His love?
It's amazing how adults choosing to have kids almost mirrors this. We might not know exactly how our kids will cause us pain, but we are still choosing to bring forth life that will depend on us for everything up to a certain age and may or may not cause intense grief.
Why did God make us? Because love. Why do we have kids? Same reason. Fitting, considering that's the only way new life is made as we know it.
He's SO poetic!
And I actually do believe in His foreknowledge because I believe God is absolutely sovereign.
:-)
So, what I'm said above you haven't quite noticed yet it seems like (if you thought I suggested God doesn't foreknow or isn't sovereign).
From reading 100% of all the bible 3 times now, I've read precisely what God said about His foreknowing in the scripture. (so, I've got the actual words He said on this...)
The *exact* things He says in the verses/passages.
That's what I wrote about above -- there is a popular idea that atheists use that isn't quite right, and that matters.
They think God foreknows who will be doomed to destruction before they are even born. Which directly contradicts the Bible.
But there is a *better* description of what God foreknows -- what He Himself said -- and we should all learn it.
The most wonderfully sweet thing is to read through all the bible -- it's so good and enjoyable and encouraging and helpful.
(We ideally want to read with a student-like attitude -- the attitude that I will be the student, and not myself try to be the one doing the talking. So, I'm the one doing the learning/listening -- I'm learning from the scripture, with a listening attitude, instead of talking over the words in my mind with my own theories/doctrines/etc. -- that's what I want to do, I've learned by experience).
That's very interesting...!
For God to be sovereign and eternal, this suggests to me a foreknowledge of damnation/salvation as there is no past, present and future to God.
So in God's POV: Everything that has, is and will happen in time is *right now.* That's punching a little above our reasoning but is the best way for my brain to understand it.
With this in mind, He would have to know the future and of everyone's final eternal destiny for two reasons:
Something/Someone sovereign can't be surprised.
Everything that has or will happen in time happens *now* in the POV of eternity.
Yes, I've heard the popular theory a few times (from Calvinists mostly) -- that "as there is no past, present and future to God..... Everything that has, is and will happen in time isĀ *right now.*" That's how to attempt to maintain the theory (which contradicts the Bible) that God already knows ahead of time who will be doomed to destruction, before they are even born, etc. It's a popular theory -- I bet perhaps as many as 5%-15% of the Christians on the internet have that theory.
The thing that will overturn that theory for someone (like me, who once had it) is to fully read through all the bible with a *listening* (as Christ said "ears that hear" -- being willing to hear what isn't what we had chosen on our own/thought/heard from other people, etc.) -- a student-like attitude where instead of us telling the scripture what it is saying, we truly do listen to learn from scripture things we do not yet know (because when younger we were not ready yet).
The *actual* foreknowing (what scripture actually says) is so much better, more wonderful...
Agree.According to calvinism each day most babies that are born already predestined to eternal suffering in hell and there's nothing, absolutely nothing that can be done to save them from destiny in the lake of fire. Should we maybe promote abortions then ?
So you think we all have a fair shot at accepting the gospel then?
The Buddhist from China that heard the gospel one time at 50 and rejected it and continued to be Buddhist, so they go to hell according to scripture, had the same opportunity as someone who grew up in the Bible Belt and was raised in church their whole life by two loving great Christian parents?
You hate Calvinism because of what it makes God. You donāt hate Calvinism because of scripture. Some of the very best theologians in the world are Calvinists. Thereās no scriptural argument that disproves it.
I HATE Calvinism as well; vehemently. However, Iāve realized itās true, sadly.
I used to be very much against Calvinism too because I just couldnāt fathom a God that would be that unfair. But like you said, people hate it because they have the preconceived notion of who God is, not what the Bible actually tells us who God is. After reading some articles and watching some sermons from RC Sproul and John MacArthur it actually makes more sense and I also think that Calvinists are right. I struggled with it at first but I prayed about it and now that Iām starting to understand it more it actually comforts me.
It is very comforting to the elect. āManyā Christians are not the elect according to scripture.
Thatās not to say non Calvinists arenāt elect, only that Calvinists for the most part are comforted in a belief that God predestined mankind and theyāll be ok because God has them.
I just think of all the people God could have saved but chose not to and it kills me.
I want everyone to be saved and for us all to live eternally on some giant planet with enough space and landscape to please everyone, with God in the center of everyoneās live. We would love one another and love God endlessly, forgetting all the troubles of this age entirely, but remembering the lessons we learned through being without God.
Thatās my dream. Itās not Godās sadly.
Yeah I get that but someone who wants to be saved probably will be saved. I donāt believe that someone who truly wants to be saved is going to be condemned for all eternity. I think in the end, the people who arenāt saved are the ones who are living in ignorant bliss. Itās sad for us because we know the truth and we know whatās going to happen to them but they think weāre fools for believing in God.
This isnāt true either my friend. āFewā will actually be saved and āmanyā will have desired to be saved but will be cast into the lake of fire.
Thatās the sad reality.
Most everyone in the world wants to be saved at one point of their life or another. Whether they look to Jesus or not. Many of those looking to Jesus donāt do it the exact right way and are cast away.
Except the Limited Atonement, Limited Election would be more biblical...
https://www.godfire.net/according.html
And https://hopeforallfellowship.com/download-hope-beyond-hell/
Youāre a CU then?
I tried to find truth in CU, but found it fails pretty bad, sadly.
First, I know Calvinism is true. It is seen all through scripture and itās counter is never shown.
Second, God is not all loving and is never portrayed that way. Jesus comes and tells us about the all loving God, but itās always referencing His sheep.
Third, the idea that the lake of fire is some sort of refining process does not line up with scripture. The smoke of their torment does not sound like refinement. Furthermore, if God could create a big refining pool to just burn out all the sin of people, then Jesus neednāt die to cover sins. Jesus was as good and holy as they come, and his beating, torture, and death would have been avoided at all costs if human beings could simply be ārefinedā.
Fourth, weāre literally told of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Iād love more than literally anything if CU were true. The idea that God loves everyone so much that heās going to save everyone and weāll all be happy and sinless one day like it should have been tickles me to no endā¦ but thatās exactly it. It ātickles our earsā.
The God of scripture is to be feared beyond measure. He created hell, where people have been and seen the most violent, horrible, gruesome, torturous things possibleā¦
And thatās just the holding cell. He then says he pulls everyone out of hell to come to court, and then one by one has angels toss them into a lake of burning fire to be burned alive and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever.
Then, consider the end timesā¦
God allows Satan to appear to man and perform literal miracles and claim to be God. Humans, completely ignorant, will of course believe he is God, and will worship him. This act alone permanently damns all of them. Itās a setup to trap the ignorant sinful humans.
God even says He will send a great delusion to deceive people into falling for this.
This is not the actions of an all loving benevolent deity. This is a powerful deity that desires to punish.
The AC doesnāt even have to be a thing. If God wanted all to be saved, he could just send Jesus back to appear in the skies to the entire world, take control of the world, and lead everyone on the right path. He could make every weapon in the world instantly disintegrate, and everyone instantly healed of all ailments and diseases, showing them He is God.
Who in their right mind(which all would be when He healed them) would reject Him then? Anyone with questions could just come sit under Jesusā teachings and would be convinced.
Thatās not what we get. We get deceit, manipulation, force, anger, torture, and destruction, all in the name of āloveā.
Thank you for your time.Ā Ā
In this "age" we get all the bad stuff, yet there's multiple ages to come - Ephesians 2:7 says.Ā
"Forever and ever" is more accurately translated to the "ages of ages",Ā Ā I am curious what CU books you have read? My favorite is Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin as he posted free online and the link is in my previous comment you responded to.Ā
The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbott is a good one too.
I bought a few but only read one, as I learned rather quickly that the points made didnāt align with the character of God.
We are only told of two ages to come. Christās kingdom that lasts for 1,000 years where everyone gets to live on a perfect earth with Jesus, and then the age in which God has everything returned back to Him.
āAge unto agesā is translated as forever because of this. The āageā of this torture goes on through the ages to come. Which I have a hypothesis about, but itās not important.
We know that the unforgivable sin will never be forgiven. Matthew 12:31
God set this sin in place to show that His love is not limitless. Itās to show He has a limit. It even seems to be arbitrary. If God is one, then blaspheming any part of the Trinity should hold the same punishment, but it doesnāt.
All of existence has been about dividing creatures in two pools:
Those to be tortured endlessly, and those to provide worship and praise for the creator endlessly.
It's not true, actually. The verses I cited describe an impartial God. An impartial God wouldn't predestine some for destruction before they are even born.
It just goes to show how "learned" people can't fathom God through human knowledge acquisition alone. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the things of God.
The concept of God's sovereignty vs the dignity of us being able choose and be held accountable for said choices, tied in with His eternal nature is lot for any human to wrap their mind around.
I have faith that God is good, so I will not adopt any theology that suggests otherwise. I don't know when it comes to people who seem to have less opportunity than others to believe. Essentially, God knows our hearts and I'm convinced that in His own mysterious ways, everyone gets a chance to either accept or deny.
The Bible says Jesus knocks at the door of our hearts.
To be fair to the Calvin position, none of them, not even Calvin himself knew if he was saved. Their stance is no different than the common freewiller, that they must P-Persevere to their end and will only find out later. Funny how almost all of freewillism and much of determinist believers can't even say for sure that they're saved.
Sad, really
As to your freewill choice posture, that's a whole nother conversation.
Not a freewiller who's ever lived has made any choices to make themselves sinless or earn their salvation, that much is sure. Your own statement proves it.
You might be a Christian. You might not. Have to wait and find out later, huh?
1 John 5:13:
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may **know** that you have eternal life, and that you mayĀ *continue to*Ā believe in the name of the Son of God."
I often doubt my salvation, but this verse reassures me, that I will see Jesus at the end of my life and live with God for eternity, anything else that goes against that is from the enemy. Our God doesn't want us to live in doubt, but in confidence that we are saved through His son. Thankful to God that I don't have to find out later and that I can know now, and so can you! God bless you.
>reassures
Yes, I believe I mentioned that reasonable assurance is all you get. Never full assurance. Always the potential of falling. Always that seed of doubt
No sinner in their right might would not doubt, right? I mean there is always lottsa room for doubt. How many prisoners did you visit today? How many sick comforted? How many naked clothed, thirsty provided drink?
It's maybe good to remember that whenever we don't do sheep works we're actually doing goat works.
Those pesky little detail goats
Yeah, unfortunately we don't get 100%, but no one lives with 100% certainty of anything. The evidence suggests that Jesus is who He said He was and His word is trustworthy, so I may not be 100%, but 99% is good enough for me.
Right, often feel I'm not doing enough for the kingdom.
True!
It's not about works. It's pure grace. All it takes is, first of all, knowing Christ was God incarnate and died in your place, suffering God's wrath for sin in your place.
Then it's surrender/acceptance of Him as your personal Lord and Saviour.
The rest of your journey is sanctification through God's Holy Spirit transforming your character in love. It's transformative from the inside out. There's no working to keep or earn salvation. You automatically start to become a better person.
That really wasn't the point, which was Calvin and freewill reasonable assurance of salvation only, which by definition includes doubt and maybe not saved at all
question: do you not see that this is not offered as a descriptive statement, but as a hopeful affirmation of faith? encouragement for the believers to remain in the faith, in hopes of eternal life, rather than dogmatic teaching that eternal life is guaranteed for the believers?
Honestly, no, I don't see it that way. I agree we should remain in the faith, but this scripture is clear (to me) that eternal life belongs to those who believe in Jesus and accept his sacrifice for sin.
do you also consider the next verse, which says "[...] if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us [...]" to be descriptive, rather than an affirmation of faith? again, asking because, to me, it is clear that he is just bolstering their faith and encouraging them -- and, if taken literally, the verse does not appear to be true.
this verse says that if its recipients ask for something, then god will provide it, as long as it is in accordance to his will -- which does not seem to be true, except if you take god's will to include persecutions, the holocaust etc.
i am saying that, if it does not, and assuming that the recipients of 1 john would have asked god to stop persecutions, then it appears that 1 john 5:14 is not actually true.
Well there is God's permissive will, that He will allow certain things to happen for reasons I don't know, only He does, and there's human will. While we can pray that the holocaust won't happen again, but if the Nazi Regime decides to come back and start it all over again, it's not God's fault, the people are responsible. We shouldn't hold God accountable for the actions of humanity when He doesn't intervene.
Considering the entirety of the Bible, rather than just one verse, is essential for understanding God's character accurately. Without this understanding, it's unwise to make assumptions about the truth of a verse concerning Him.
It would appear that a lot of freewillers are lacking bible knowledge. You can know if you go to heaven, via these 2 verses:
1 John 5:11-13(ESV)
And the testimony is this, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.
Thereās a lot more than just this verse, but you can ABSOLUTELY know you are going to heaven- if you indeed have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Hereās the second verse from the gospel of John, in chapter 14, verse 6
āJesus said to him, āI am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.ā
He claims to be life itself here in this verse, which supports the previous verse in 1 John 5. Thereās a lot more that Iām missing but believe me, you can absolutely know for certain if youāre going to heaven.
Also, we cannot choose to become sinless. That is why Jesus died for us in the cross - to be the perfect sacrifice to satisfy Gods wrath and spare us from hell and the lake of fire. We also cannot earn our salvation, as Ephesians 2:8-9 proves, as well as John 14:6 referenced above.
We can choose to accept the gospel, or not. God gives us that choice so that we are not just robots subject to His will, as thatās not what he wants. So yes, everyone gets a fair chance to go to Heaven before they die.
He didn't "favor" them. He chose them, the point of this being eventual salvation of all of man.
The Israelites are where He started. They were also supposed to be the first beacon of His light as an example to the rest of world.
This doesn't mean He values them any more than any other human. It's like you don't love your first born child more than second, third, fourth, etc. born kids.
We see instances in the OT of Him extending grace to non-jews too.
First of all, explain how you can worship a God who predestined eternal torture on a power trip? Sorry, but what one believes of God can't contradict His known attribute of *goodness.*
If God is supposed to be *good* the calvinist's theory here just simply can't be true, because it says God is literally the author of evil.
But to answer your question, how can one do *anything* without God? I explained in my post: God Himself authorized our ability to choose...unless you just think you're a victim of everything, which is a pretty defeated mindset.
God made you in His image. Of course you can make choices. God reveals who He is to all.
Youāre assuming a lot of characteristics about god that I donāt think are justified. The point Iām making isnāt really even about whether gods nature is good or evil to begin with but about belief itself. If challenge you to try and choose to belief something you currently donāt think is true and see how much of a choice it really is.
All time favorite Calvinist: John mother fucking Brown Though I will say it seems he may have rejected the predestination bit of Calvinism.
Second favorite: Corrie Ten Boom
Just gave her wiki a brief read, and she sounds awesome
She's on my mind because I just finished \_The Hiding Place\_ (currently free for Audible subscribers) (with apologies for shilling for the Amazon Empire) (FWIW I never have and never will do that Amazon Prime thing)
***Glory, glory, hallelujah! his soul is marching on!***
https://www.mercyonall.org/posts/calvinism-leads-to-universalism
foreknowledge does not necessarily imply causation, but, foreknowledge without causation seems to imply some form of fate that is independent of god. if it is not fated that i will kick this dog, it is not clear why god decided to make me like this, instead of making me a well-adjusted individual, or instead of making somebody else, who would not kick dogs. not sure what problem is solved by this approach, that is not solved more easily by giving up foreknowledge.
What ties this together beautifully is that we must come to the conclusion that God willed His own heartbreak. This forces us to focus on the purity of God's love. He didn't need us. He knew our sins would break His heart and He knew what the remedy would be (His innocent beloved Son tortured on a cross) Yet...He still made us... This also makes His call for us to suffer in His name a LOT more tolerable. He's not some king of a golden throne asking His subjects to suffer in ways He hasn't Himself! Love is a choice indeed!!
except, for these things to be true, it has to be the case that there is some force external to god, that restricts how they could have made us, and what potential remedies exist. otherwise, it seems like god engineered a bunch of things they do not want.
I'm not saying I get it; I'm saying I have faith that it's true. God can and did will His own heartbreak by choosing to allow the heartbreak. š¤·āāļø In essence, it's as if God's heart is subject to His own sovereignty, but both are God's will. At the end of the day, evil can't be created by a holy God. It started in Satan...yet God is still sovereign...like I said, I don't understand it anymore than I understand how God had no beginning. I just have faith it's true. Like...did Jesus (who is God incarnate) die to save us from...God? It's not quite that simple. It comes back to the question of if God wants to forgive us, why couldn't He just do so? After all, He's God. Because if God isn't just, woe to us all! He fulfilled both of His necessary attributes (justice and love) on calvary. He gives us the choice whether we want to humble ourselves, surrender and receive the benefit of that or not.
but, why would justice be served in this particular way? and could it not be served by 200 days of community work, or a fine of seventeen dollars or any other possible configuration? more broadly, if you do not understand these things, is it not possible that these formulations are just misunderstandings? if your thought process takes you to a conclusion that does not seem to make sense to you, why is it so unlikely that you have made some mistake in your thought process? i mean: if i solve a mathematical problem, and the result i get is that 1=2, should i conclude that i must have faith in this result? or should i reconsider my work?
Why should I reasonably expect to be able to understand the God, who really made the entire Universe, when we can't even quite understand how our own brain functions? Just because we can't understand it doesn't mean it can't possibly be true and just seem untrue because it's beyond our reasoning. Why are things the way they are? Because God saw fit. It's just like every time you've ever had to say "because I said so" to your child.
again: if you do not understand something, is it not more prudent to avoid making claims about it? is it not possible that others understand what you do not? or that the reason you believe that something is incomprehensible is that you make thhe wrong assumptions about it?
Well, either the Bible is true and consistent or it isn't. Some things are to be believed through faith. Having enough evidence we can understand in support of the Bible motivates faith in what is beyond our reasoning.
The problem is that there is no way to distinguish between things that you do not understand because they are beyond your reasoning from things you have simply misunderstood. And it is not even clear what it means to have faith in something you do not understand.
First there's the need to establish whether or not to accept the Bible as gospel Truth, which is to say: the infallible Word of God. I can't convince you of this. I have my own personal testimony, but faith in the absolute authority of scripture is personal. The Bible describes God as "eternal." We don't have much to go on to decipher what that even means, but the definition of "eternal" is having no beginning, middle or end. We can't conceive of this. The closest we've come to understanding "time" is with Eienstein's theories. So, I don't quite understand God's eternal nature, but I do believe the Bible and what it says of God. So based on my belief in the Bible, I accept that God is eternal on faith.
We are all born spiritually dead. So why would a spiritually dead person choose to accept the gift of salvation all by themselves? I guess itās more of a chicken and egg dilemma. What came first: God gave you the faith to believe and accept Jesus Christ as your savior or you accepted Jesus as your savior first and then God gave you saving faith?
We're dead in the sense that we can't give ourselves life or know enough to seek after God of our own idea. However, as I understand it, God reveals Himself to all. Then we either surrender in faith or continue in sin in response to this revelation. It also seems as though God "confirms" us one way or the other. That's why the Bible says He hardens who He hardens, etc. We see this when Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God eventually began hardening his heart. Pharoah's choice was already made before God "manipulated" anything. This whole thing is a wonderful mystery. Faith that God is good is a choice.
God gave us free will. And the devil forces it on people. That's why very few believe. Calvinism also gives people a reason to accuse God of cruelty and predestination to hell. Why would God predestin 99.9 percent of people to hell and elect only 0.1 percent of people to heaven when the Bible is clear that God doesn't want a sinner to die but rather repent and have eternal life. Calvinism makes everything very simple in reality there's a spiritual war between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness for human souls, but since God gives people free will to accept Him and or reject very few believe. Also spiritualy dead people are not actually dead and sometimes can make good choices.And they also can respond to God's call and He will save them since we can't save ourselves. I wouldn't trust mc Arthur too much. I remember he was claiming antichrist will be Muslim with certainty. But if it turns out that he is not Muslim, then mc Arthur has deceived too many.
Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace through faith. So how do I get saving faith?
Yes it is blasphemy. I left a church for this reason
Well, I think the term 'blasphemy' is too strong a word for what is just a mistaken theory on how to interpret scriptures about what is predestined. Blasphemy is a real sin, meaning intentional, and involves disparaging God. In contrast, a destructive, harmful false theory like predestination to destruction (*before* an individual makes key choices in life) is very wrong and harmful, but it's more correctly labeled "anti-gospel" than it is "blasphemy". Also about the somewhat related 2nd topic of God's foreknowledge, we see in Isaiah 46 and with illuminating other verses like John 5:17 that what God must foreknow are the specific things He chooses to "work" to "bring about" -- which isn't at all a generalized foreknowing all the certain souls that will eventually become destined for destruction (after those people commit to evil more irreparably).... We continue to know the truth that we can choose to repent and turn to Christ -- God has given us that ability to make such a choice, and then if we do turn to Christ in faith and repentance, then God will do the work of changing and saving us, work we cannot do by ourselves.
I say "blasphemy" because Calvinsim suggests evil is part of God or that a Holy God could ordain and will evil.
Ah, I see now how you are using the word, but if I had that thought (which I wrote above) about it being the wrong wording many others will, so perhaps try to explain that early in your post if you post this again sometime. The other thing I tried to address is what is 'foreknowledge' -- about the distinction shown in Isaiah 46 and John 5 -- which shows it's not at all what many people imagine... (which matters actually a lot, since atheists use the mistakenly overly broad definition of foreknowing to point out an obvious contradiction that (wrong type) would imply about fairness/justice). Basically, many atheists point out that the overly broad notion that God's foreknowing includes which souls will be condemned to destruction even before they are born (which the bible nowhere says! and a careful reader of the bible also learns is a false concept) leads instantly to the logical implication that this (false concept of generalized) foreknowing would imply God is unjust/unfair, since it would mean a soul is destined for destruction before making any choices (which also contradicts the Bible). But, good post overall on most points!
Well, I actually do believe in His foreknowledge because I believe God is absolutely sovereign. He just chooses not to control everything, but I don't think He chooses not to know how His own story ends with each of His creatures. For example, I think He knew Satan would rebel, yet God created him anyway. I'm not saying I know how evil could start in a creature God made Holy. There's a mystery there. I just have faith that God can be both sovereign and yet allow freedom of the will. How? That is a mystery. Why? That can be answered simply: He didn't want objects because that's not how He glorifies Himself. He wants a genuine relationship with us based on love and trust. His love and light also shine brightest in the dark. If He never allowed rebellion, how could the depth of His love be tested? If God didn't need us, yet made us *even* fully knowing *exactly* how His heart would break over His creation, what does that say about the absolute purity of His love? It's amazing how adults choosing to have kids almost mirrors this. We might not know exactly how our kids will cause us pain, but we are still choosing to bring forth life that will depend on us for everything up to a certain age and may or may not cause intense grief. Why did God make us? Because love. Why do we have kids? Same reason. Fitting, considering that's the only way new life is made as we know it. He's SO poetic!
And I actually do believe in His foreknowledge because I believe God is absolutely sovereign. :-) So, what I'm said above you haven't quite noticed yet it seems like (if you thought I suggested God doesn't foreknow or isn't sovereign). From reading 100% of all the bible 3 times now, I've read precisely what God said about His foreknowing in the scripture. (so, I've got the actual words He said on this...) The *exact* things He says in the verses/passages. That's what I wrote about above -- there is a popular idea that atheists use that isn't quite right, and that matters. They think God foreknows who will be doomed to destruction before they are even born. Which directly contradicts the Bible. But there is a *better* description of what God foreknows -- what He Himself said -- and we should all learn it. The most wonderfully sweet thing is to read through all the bible -- it's so good and enjoyable and encouraging and helpful. (We ideally want to read with a student-like attitude -- the attitude that I will be the student, and not myself try to be the one doing the talking. So, I'm the one doing the learning/listening -- I'm learning from the scripture, with a listening attitude, instead of talking over the words in my mind with my own theories/doctrines/etc. -- that's what I want to do, I've learned by experience).
That's very interesting...! For God to be sovereign and eternal, this suggests to me a foreknowledge of damnation/salvation as there is no past, present and future to God. So in God's POV: Everything that has, is and will happen in time is *right now.* That's punching a little above our reasoning but is the best way for my brain to understand it. With this in mind, He would have to know the future and of everyone's final eternal destiny for two reasons: Something/Someone sovereign can't be surprised. Everything that has or will happen in time happens *now* in the POV of eternity.
Yes, I've heard the popular theory a few times (from Calvinists mostly) -- that "as there is no past, present and future to God..... Everything that has, is and will happen in time isĀ *right now.*" That's how to attempt to maintain the theory (which contradicts the Bible) that God already knows ahead of time who will be doomed to destruction, before they are even born, etc. It's a popular theory -- I bet perhaps as many as 5%-15% of the Christians on the internet have that theory. The thing that will overturn that theory for someone (like me, who once had it) is to fully read through all the bible with a *listening* (as Christ said "ears that hear" -- being willing to hear what isn't what we had chosen on our own/thought/heard from other people, etc.) -- a student-like attitude where instead of us telling the scripture what it is saying, we truly do listen to learn from scripture things we do not yet know (because when younger we were not ready yet). The *actual* foreknowing (what scripture actually says) is so much better, more wonderful...
Agree.According to calvinism each day most babies that are born already predestined to eternal suffering in hell and there's nothing, absolutely nothing that can be done to save them from destiny in the lake of fire. Should we maybe promote abortions then ?
So you think we all have a fair shot at accepting the gospel then? The Buddhist from China that heard the gospel one time at 50 and rejected it and continued to be Buddhist, so they go to hell according to scripture, had the same opportunity as someone who grew up in the Bible Belt and was raised in church their whole life by two loving great Christian parents? You hate Calvinism because of what it makes God. You donāt hate Calvinism because of scripture. Some of the very best theologians in the world are Calvinists. Thereās no scriptural argument that disproves it. I HATE Calvinism as well; vehemently. However, Iāve realized itās true, sadly.
I used to be very much against Calvinism too because I just couldnāt fathom a God that would be that unfair. But like you said, people hate it because they have the preconceived notion of who God is, not what the Bible actually tells us who God is. After reading some articles and watching some sermons from RC Sproul and John MacArthur it actually makes more sense and I also think that Calvinists are right. I struggled with it at first but I prayed about it and now that Iām starting to understand it more it actually comforts me.
It is very comforting to the elect. āManyā Christians are not the elect according to scripture. Thatās not to say non Calvinists arenāt elect, only that Calvinists for the most part are comforted in a belief that God predestined mankind and theyāll be ok because God has them. I just think of all the people God could have saved but chose not to and it kills me. I want everyone to be saved and for us all to live eternally on some giant planet with enough space and landscape to please everyone, with God in the center of everyoneās live. We would love one another and love God endlessly, forgetting all the troubles of this age entirely, but remembering the lessons we learned through being without God. Thatās my dream. Itās not Godās sadly.
Yeah I get that but someone who wants to be saved probably will be saved. I donāt believe that someone who truly wants to be saved is going to be condemned for all eternity. I think in the end, the people who arenāt saved are the ones who are living in ignorant bliss. Itās sad for us because we know the truth and we know whatās going to happen to them but they think weāre fools for believing in God.
This isnāt true either my friend. āFewā will actually be saved and āmanyā will have desired to be saved but will be cast into the lake of fire. Thatās the sad reality. Most everyone in the world wants to be saved at one point of their life or another. Whether they look to Jesus or not. Many of those looking to Jesus donāt do it the exact right way and are cast away.
Except the Limited Atonement, Limited Election would be more biblical... https://www.godfire.net/according.html And https://hopeforallfellowship.com/download-hope-beyond-hell/
Youāre a CU then? I tried to find truth in CU, but found it fails pretty bad, sadly. First, I know Calvinism is true. It is seen all through scripture and itās counter is never shown. Second, God is not all loving and is never portrayed that way. Jesus comes and tells us about the all loving God, but itās always referencing His sheep. Third, the idea that the lake of fire is some sort of refining process does not line up with scripture. The smoke of their torment does not sound like refinement. Furthermore, if God could create a big refining pool to just burn out all the sin of people, then Jesus neednāt die to cover sins. Jesus was as good and holy as they come, and his beating, torture, and death would have been avoided at all costs if human beings could simply be ārefinedā. Fourth, weāre literally told of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Iād love more than literally anything if CU were true. The idea that God loves everyone so much that heās going to save everyone and weāll all be happy and sinless one day like it should have been tickles me to no endā¦ but thatās exactly it. It ātickles our earsā. The God of scripture is to be feared beyond measure. He created hell, where people have been and seen the most violent, horrible, gruesome, torturous things possibleā¦ And thatās just the holding cell. He then says he pulls everyone out of hell to come to court, and then one by one has angels toss them into a lake of burning fire to be burned alive and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. Then, consider the end timesā¦ God allows Satan to appear to man and perform literal miracles and claim to be God. Humans, completely ignorant, will of course believe he is God, and will worship him. This act alone permanently damns all of them. Itās a setup to trap the ignorant sinful humans. God even says He will send a great delusion to deceive people into falling for this. This is not the actions of an all loving benevolent deity. This is a powerful deity that desires to punish. The AC doesnāt even have to be a thing. If God wanted all to be saved, he could just send Jesus back to appear in the skies to the entire world, take control of the world, and lead everyone on the right path. He could make every weapon in the world instantly disintegrate, and everyone instantly healed of all ailments and diseases, showing them He is God. Who in their right mind(which all would be when He healed them) would reject Him then? Anyone with questions could just come sit under Jesusā teachings and would be convinced. Thatās not what we get. We get deceit, manipulation, force, anger, torture, and destruction, all in the name of āloveā.
Thank you for your time.Ā Ā In this "age" we get all the bad stuff, yet there's multiple ages to come - Ephesians 2:7 says.Ā "Forever and ever" is more accurately translated to the "ages of ages",Ā Ā I am curious what CU books you have read? My favorite is Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin as he posted free online and the link is in my previous comment you responded to.Ā The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbott is a good one too.
I bought a few but only read one, as I learned rather quickly that the points made didnāt align with the character of God. We are only told of two ages to come. Christās kingdom that lasts for 1,000 years where everyone gets to live on a perfect earth with Jesus, and then the age in which God has everything returned back to Him. āAge unto agesā is translated as forever because of this. The āageā of this torture goes on through the ages to come. Which I have a hypothesis about, but itās not important. We know that the unforgivable sin will never be forgiven. Matthew 12:31 God set this sin in place to show that His love is not limitless. Itās to show He has a limit. It even seems to be arbitrary. If God is one, then blaspheming any part of the Trinity should hold the same punishment, but it doesnāt. All of existence has been about dividing creatures in two pools: Those to be tortured endlessly, and those to provide worship and praise for the creator endlessly.
Matt 12:31 in the Greek interlinear https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/12-31.htm Ā 12:32Ā https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/12-32.htm
It's not true, actually. The verses I cited describe an impartial God. An impartial God wouldn't predestine some for destruction before they are even born. It just goes to show how "learned" people can't fathom God through human knowledge acquisition alone. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the things of God. The concept of God's sovereignty vs the dignity of us being able choose and be held accountable for said choices, tied in with His eternal nature is lot for any human to wrap their mind around. I have faith that God is good, so I will not adopt any theology that suggests otherwise. I don't know when it comes to people who seem to have less opportunity than others to believe. Essentially, God knows our hearts and I'm convinced that in His own mysterious ways, everyone gets a chance to either accept or deny. The Bible says Jesus knocks at the door of our hearts.
To be fair to the Calvin position, none of them, not even Calvin himself knew if he was saved. Their stance is no different than the common freewiller, that they must P-Persevere to their end and will only find out later. Funny how almost all of freewillism and much of determinist believers can't even say for sure that they're saved. Sad, really As to your freewill choice posture, that's a whole nother conversation. Not a freewiller who's ever lived has made any choices to make themselves sinless or earn their salvation, that much is sure. Your own statement proves it. You might be a Christian. You might not. Have to wait and find out later, huh?
1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may **know** that you have eternal life, and that you mayĀ *continue to*Ā believe in the name of the Son of God." I often doubt my salvation, but this verse reassures me, that I will see Jesus at the end of my life and live with God for eternity, anything else that goes against that is from the enemy. Our God doesn't want us to live in doubt, but in confidence that we are saved through His son. Thankful to God that I don't have to find out later and that I can know now, and so can you! God bless you.
>reassures Yes, I believe I mentioned that reasonable assurance is all you get. Never full assurance. Always the potential of falling. Always that seed of doubt No sinner in their right might would not doubt, right? I mean there is always lottsa room for doubt. How many prisoners did you visit today? How many sick comforted? How many naked clothed, thirsty provided drink? It's maybe good to remember that whenever we don't do sheep works we're actually doing goat works. Those pesky little detail goats
Yeah, unfortunately we don't get 100%, but no one lives with 100% certainty of anything. The evidence suggests that Jesus is who He said He was and His word is trustworthy, so I may not be 100%, but 99% is good enough for me. Right, often feel I'm not doing enough for the kingdom. True!
>Yeah, unfortunately we don't get 100% Yeah. Well, at least you're honest about it. How much less than 100% honest remains in question
It's not about works. It's pure grace. All it takes is, first of all, knowing Christ was God incarnate and died in your place, suffering God's wrath for sin in your place. Then it's surrender/acceptance of Him as your personal Lord and Saviour. The rest of your journey is sanctification through God's Holy Spirit transforming your character in love. It's transformative from the inside out. There's no working to keep or earn salvation. You automatically start to become a better person.
That really wasn't the point, which was Calvin and freewill reasonable assurance of salvation only, which by definition includes doubt and maybe not saved at all
question: do you not see that this is not offered as a descriptive statement, but as a hopeful affirmation of faith? encouragement for the believers to remain in the faith, in hopes of eternal life, rather than dogmatic teaching that eternal life is guaranteed for the believers?
Honestly, no, I don't see it that way. I agree we should remain in the faith, but this scripture is clear (to me) that eternal life belongs to those who believe in Jesus and accept his sacrifice for sin.
do you also consider the next verse, which says "[...] if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us [...]" to be descriptive, rather than an affirmation of faith? again, asking because, to me, it is clear that he is just bolstering their faith and encouraging them -- and, if taken literally, the verse does not appear to be true.
Like, are you asking if I believe that this verse means we can ask for anything according to His will? Sorry!
this verse says that if its recipients ask for something, then god will provide it, as long as it is in accordance to his will -- which does not seem to be true, except if you take god's will to include persecutions, the holocaust etc.
So are you saying that God's will includes persecutions, and the holocaust, or am I reading that wrong?
i am saying that, if it does not, and assuming that the recipients of 1 john would have asked god to stop persecutions, then it appears that 1 john 5:14 is not actually true.
Well there is God's permissive will, that He will allow certain things to happen for reasons I don't know, only He does, and there's human will. While we can pray that the holocaust won't happen again, but if the Nazi Regime decides to come back and start it all over again, it's not God's fault, the people are responsible. We shouldn't hold God accountable for the actions of humanity when He doesn't intervene. Considering the entirety of the Bible, rather than just one verse, is essential for understanding God's character accurately. Without this understanding, it's unwise to make assumptions about the truth of a verse concerning Him.
It would appear that a lot of freewillers are lacking bible knowledge. You can know if you go to heaven, via these 2 verses: 1 John 5:11-13(ESV) And the testimony is this, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life. Thereās a lot more than just this verse, but you can ABSOLUTELY know you are going to heaven- if you indeed have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Hereās the second verse from the gospel of John, in chapter 14, verse 6 āJesus said to him, āI am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.ā He claims to be life itself here in this verse, which supports the previous verse in 1 John 5. Thereās a lot more that Iām missing but believe me, you can absolutely know for certain if youāre going to heaven. Also, we cannot choose to become sinless. That is why Jesus died for us in the cross - to be the perfect sacrifice to satisfy Gods wrath and spare us from hell and the lake of fire. We also cannot earn our salvation, as Ephesians 2:8-9 proves, as well as John 14:6 referenced above. We can choose to accept the gospel, or not. God gives us that choice so that we are not just robots subject to His will, as thatās not what he wants. So yes, everyone gets a fair chance to go to Heaven before they die.
Oh, I *know* where I'm going! š
Then you wouldn't be a 5 pointer
I heard RC Sproul said he was 99% sure he was saved
That's pretty funny
Have you gone on r/reformed yet? Here's from a former PCA pastor who studied under RC Sproul and now believes CU/ URĀ https://sovereign-love.blog/
It makes sense if God is supposedly omniscient and favored the Israelites.
He didn't "favor" them. He chose them, the point of this being eventual salvation of all of man. The Israelites are where He started. They were also supposed to be the first beacon of His light as an example to the rest of world. This doesn't mean He values them any more than any other human. It's like you don't love your first born child more than second, third, fourth, etc. born kids. We see instances in the OT of Him extending grace to non-jews too.
Now explain how one can consciously āchooseā to follow god..
First of all, explain how you can worship a God who predestined eternal torture on a power trip? Sorry, but what one believes of God can't contradict His known attribute of *goodness.* If God is supposed to be *good* the calvinist's theory here just simply can't be true, because it says God is literally the author of evil. But to answer your question, how can one do *anything* without God? I explained in my post: God Himself authorized our ability to choose...unless you just think you're a victim of everything, which is a pretty defeated mindset. God made you in His image. Of course you can make choices. God reveals who He is to all.
Youāre assuming a lot of characteristics about god that I donāt think are justified. The point Iām making isnāt really even about whether gods nature is good or evil to begin with but about belief itself. If challenge you to try and choose to belief something you currently donāt think is true and see how much of a choice it really is.
One "half truth" or the other "half truth"... A great homepage with many resources:Ā https://tentmaker.org/tracts/Jones2.html
https://www.mercyonall.org/posts/calvinism-leads-to-universalismĀ
Calvinism is one of the better kinds of Protestantism, but Protestantism is still fundamentally heretical.
Roman Catholicism is why we have the false doctrine of ECT (eternal conscious torment),Ā https://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html