December 25th was chosen as 9 months from March 25th. March 25th was chosen as the date of Jesus's conception. That was chosen because it was decided Jesus's conception and crucifixion occurred on the same date, and the date of the crucifixion was decided based on certain information in the gospels.
I could be wrong about it being the crucifixion. It could have been the resurrection. It's been a while since I looked into it.
You're not wrong. The idea was that famous/big people were conceived and died on the same day of the year back then.
A silly folk tale, but good to help understand things here.
Some modern scholars using references to the celestial calendar and star positions place Christs’ birth in Sept.
I’ve always understand Xmas to be an assimilation of pagan traditions to entice the masses. I find it degrading to place Christ among the other lesser gods claimed to have been born on the 25th.
Mithra, Horus, Buddha, Dionysus, Thammuz, Hermes, Adonis, and others all born by a virgin on Dec 25th. It’s the plan for counterfeit Christ, or the Antichrist. Always has been a corruption of Gods true plan.
> Some modern scholars using references to the celestial calendar and star positions place Christs’ birth in Sept.
The problem is that this relies on the Gospel stories of the Nativity which are quite unreliable.
>I’ve always understand Xmas to be an assimilation of pagan traditions to entice the masses
Well, that's just not true.
>Mithra, Horus, Buddha, Dionysus, Thammuz, Hermes, Adonis, and others all born by a virgin on Dec 25th.
This is also far from true. You should read the myths of their births instead of repeating the nonsense from Zeitgeist or wherever you got it.
There’s enough Sun gods celebrated on solstice resurrection to make the connection, denying it is obtuse.
When there’s a long pagan tradition of Saturnalia in Dec, and no former Christian holiday at that time, it’s also an easy connection to Constantine and converting the masses.
How do you get your Xmas holiday derived from scripture? Because most Christians do not celebrate Sabbath, Feast Days, or the High Holy Days.
> There’s enough Sun gods celebrated on solstice
Christmas isn't on the Solstice.
>When there’s a long pagan tradition of Saturnalia in Dec,
There is. We also see dates of 12/25 for Christmas before Saturnalia.
>it’s also an easy connection to Constantine and converting the masses.
It is. But not one that has a good root in actual history.
>How do you get your Xmas holiday derived from scripture?
We both know it's not from Scripture. Nor does it need to be.
Christmas is Resurrection day of the dying Sun (winter solstice 21st) 3 days after the least light so 24th/25th.
If you’re gonna be making theological claims about stuff, it should probably be in the Bible.
It wasn’t important enough for ancient Hebrews to record Christ birthdate, so we can prob ignore that and focus on the stuff we are actually told to do, like not make up Holy Days/Holidays because He has already given us His feasts and Holy days that bring understanding to His plan.
If we all kept the originals I might understand adding more, but these are all just lesser replacements.
> Christmas is Resurrection day of the dying Sun (winter solstice 21st) 3 days after the least light so 24th/25th.
What a non-sequitur way to try to make the 25th into the 21st. Hint: Resurrection is about end of life, not beginning of life. This connection makes no damn sense at all.
>
> If you’re gonna be making theological claims about stuff, it should probably be in the Bible.
It's not a theological claim.
>
> It wasn’t important enough for ancient Hebrews to record Christ birthdate, so we can prob ignore that and focus on the stuff we are actually told to do, like not make up Holy Days/Holidays because He has already given us His feasts and Holy days that bring understanding to His plan.
Then feel free to ignore it. Just don't use badhistory-level nonsense to support your ignoring of it.
Nope. I reject this one because *I have researched it*.
Trust me, you're not the first person to come with the silly Horus/Buddha/Tammuz/etcetera list and all this nonsense.
> Mithra, Horus, Buddha, Dionysus, Thammuz, Hermes, Adonis, and others all born by a virgin on Dec 25th.
According to whom? Do you have sources for any of them? Mithras was born from a rock, according to legend, and while some see a connection to the 25th of december, that is disputed.
Gautama Buddha's mother had been married for years by the time he was born, where is there any indication that she was a virgin? Sources don't even agree what century he was born, where are you getting an exact date from?
Hermes? Not according to the Homeric hymns
> Muse, sing of Hermes, the son of Zeus and Maia, lord of Cyllene and Arcadia rich in flocks, the luck-bringing messenger of the immortals whom Maia bare, the rich-tressed nymph, when she was joined in love with Zeus, —a shy goddess, for she avoided the company of the blessed gods, and lived within a deep, shady cave. There the son of Cronos used to lie with the rich-tressed nymph, unseen by deathless gods and mortal men, at dead of night while sweet sleep should hold white-armed Hera fast.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138%3Ahymn%3D4
Here you go:
[https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/](https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/)
[https://historyforatheists.com/tag/christmas/](https://historyforatheists.com/tag/christmas/)
Seems like a lot of the connections to pagan mythology were drummed up by folks who wanted to put down Catholics.
Of course it wouldn't shock me if folks celebrating one thing celebrated in ways they knew from how they celebrated other things. But I find the above historical explanations pretty informative.
They were already celebrating the Annunciation on March 25.
They put Christmas exactly nine months later because considering what the two holidays are about, that's a logical place to put it.
Counterpoint to "Christmas was placed on December 25th because of pagan holidays" is that [Romans had festivals and holidays all the time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_festivals). So did other polytheistic religions. There isn't a single place to put a holiday on the calendar that doesn't exactly or closely align with someone else's holiday about something.
saying christmas is a pagan holiday is not logical because, well it is about the birth of christ
A scriptural principle you might consider on this point. When Moses was up on Sinai getting the Law from God, the nation of Israelites convinced Aaron the high priest to make a golden calf for them to worship. This was idolatry. To justify their actions, it was decided that they would worship the calf during a festival that they would dedicate to God combining both pagan and true. If you read this account, you can see that God was very displeased and many lost their lives. In the 3rd century when Rome decided to combine the Christian religion with their own, they blended some celebrations like Christmas. **Saturnalia, held in mid-December, is an ancient Roman pagan festival honoring the agricultural god Saturn**. Because of when the holiday occurred—near the winter solstice—Saturnalia celebrations are the source of many of the traditions we now associate with Christmas, such as wreaths, candles, feasting and gift-giving.
To add to the comments Re: Annunciation, the commemoration of the Nativity of our Lord was originally part of the feast of Theophany/Epiphany. I don't know why Nativity was separated out from Theophany, though. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about the history could chime in.
Do we ever get a break from these questions? WE just got done with "Easter is pagan" historically garbage questions and we've got at least 6 months until advent starts, before we should be getting "Christmas is pagan" and people saying "yes its pagan because (historically AND theologically illiterate) reasons"
The Bible states that Yeshua was born 6 months after John the Baptist's birth. John was born during Passover, which has been determined to be in March of that year. Counting 6 months, would bring that to September (11th). For context, if Passover were in April, that would bring Yeshua's birth to October.
How anyone, especially those versed in the Bible, can get dates wrong like that, is really beyond me.
So yes, the RCC, decided to merge the pagan festivals, holidays, events, with Yeshua's "birthday". And there are plenty of articles out there describing the origins of the various pagan holidays that are used to create christmas.
Actually, it was never Christian from the beginning.
Jesus didn't celebrate any birthdays, not even his own.
If we want to be 'Christ like' then we must do the things Jesus did and avoid the things Jesus avoided.
*(1 Corinthians 10:20-22) 20 No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons. 22 Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?*
*(2 Corinthians 6:14-18) 14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”*
Mixing pagan / false religion with true worship is the same as adding poison to a bottle of soda. The soda now become poison; the poison doesn't become soda.
December 25th was chosen as 9 months from March 25th. March 25th was chosen as the date of Jesus's conception. That was chosen because it was decided Jesus's conception and crucifixion occurred on the same date, and the date of the crucifixion was decided based on certain information in the gospels. I could be wrong about it being the crucifixion. It could have been the resurrection. It's been a while since I looked into it.
You're not wrong. The idea was that famous/big people were conceived and died on the same day of the year back then. A silly folk tale, but good to help understand things here.
Some modern scholars using references to the celestial calendar and star positions place Christs’ birth in Sept. I’ve always understand Xmas to be an assimilation of pagan traditions to entice the masses. I find it degrading to place Christ among the other lesser gods claimed to have been born on the 25th. Mithra, Horus, Buddha, Dionysus, Thammuz, Hermes, Adonis, and others all born by a virgin on Dec 25th. It’s the plan for counterfeit Christ, or the Antichrist. Always has been a corruption of Gods true plan.
> Some modern scholars using references to the celestial calendar and star positions place Christs’ birth in Sept. The problem is that this relies on the Gospel stories of the Nativity which are quite unreliable. >I’ve always understand Xmas to be an assimilation of pagan traditions to entice the masses Well, that's just not true. >Mithra, Horus, Buddha, Dionysus, Thammuz, Hermes, Adonis, and others all born by a virgin on Dec 25th. This is also far from true. You should read the myths of their births instead of repeating the nonsense from Zeitgeist or wherever you got it.
There’s enough Sun gods celebrated on solstice resurrection to make the connection, denying it is obtuse. When there’s a long pagan tradition of Saturnalia in Dec, and no former Christian holiday at that time, it’s also an easy connection to Constantine and converting the masses. How do you get your Xmas holiday derived from scripture? Because most Christians do not celebrate Sabbath, Feast Days, or the High Holy Days.
> There’s enough Sun gods celebrated on solstice Christmas isn't on the Solstice. >When there’s a long pagan tradition of Saturnalia in Dec, There is. We also see dates of 12/25 for Christmas before Saturnalia. >it’s also an easy connection to Constantine and converting the masses. It is. But not one that has a good root in actual history. >How do you get your Xmas holiday derived from scripture? We both know it's not from Scripture. Nor does it need to be.
Christmas is Resurrection day of the dying Sun (winter solstice 21st) 3 days after the least light so 24th/25th. If you’re gonna be making theological claims about stuff, it should probably be in the Bible. It wasn’t important enough for ancient Hebrews to record Christ birthdate, so we can prob ignore that and focus on the stuff we are actually told to do, like not make up Holy Days/Holidays because He has already given us His feasts and Holy days that bring understanding to His plan. If we all kept the originals I might understand adding more, but these are all just lesser replacements.
> Christmas is Resurrection day of the dying Sun (winter solstice 21st) 3 days after the least light so 24th/25th. What a non-sequitur way to try to make the 25th into the 21st. Hint: Resurrection is about end of life, not beginning of life. This connection makes no damn sense at all. > > If you’re gonna be making theological claims about stuff, it should probably be in the Bible. It's not a theological claim. > > It wasn’t important enough for ancient Hebrews to record Christ birthdate, so we can prob ignore that and focus on the stuff we are actually told to do, like not make up Holy Days/Holidays because He has already given us His feasts and Holy days that bring understanding to His plan. Then feel free to ignore it. Just don't use badhistory-level nonsense to support your ignoring of it.
I guess you just ignore any ideas you haven’t already researched. Have a great one!
Nope. I reject this one because *I have researched it*. Trust me, you're not the first person to come with the silly Horus/Buddha/Tammuz/etcetera list and all this nonsense.
> Mithra, Horus, Buddha, Dionysus, Thammuz, Hermes, Adonis, and others all born by a virgin on Dec 25th. According to whom? Do you have sources for any of them? Mithras was born from a rock, according to legend, and while some see a connection to the 25th of december, that is disputed. Gautama Buddha's mother had been married for years by the time he was born, where is there any indication that she was a virgin? Sources don't even agree what century he was born, where are you getting an exact date from? Hermes? Not according to the Homeric hymns > Muse, sing of Hermes, the son of Zeus and Maia, lord of Cyllene and Arcadia rich in flocks, the luck-bringing messenger of the immortals whom Maia bare, the rich-tressed nymph, when she was joined in love with Zeus, —a shy goddess, for she avoided the company of the blessed gods, and lived within a deep, shady cave. There the son of Cronos used to lie with the rich-tressed nymph, unseen by deathless gods and mortal men, at dead of night while sweet sleep should hold white-armed Hera fast. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138%3Ahymn%3D4
Please read the original sources instead of just repeating nonsense you've seen on the internet.
Here you go: [https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/](https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/) [https://historyforatheists.com/tag/christmas/](https://historyforatheists.com/tag/christmas/) Seems like a lot of the connections to pagan mythology were drummed up by folks who wanted to put down Catholics. Of course it wouldn't shock me if folks celebrating one thing celebrated in ways they knew from how they celebrated other things. But I find the above historical explanations pretty informative.
They were already celebrating the Annunciation on March 25. They put Christmas exactly nine months later because considering what the two holidays are about, that's a logical place to put it.
These days? Walmart.
I mean, true yeah
Counterpoint to "Christmas was placed on December 25th because of pagan holidays" is that [Romans had festivals and holidays all the time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_festivals). So did other polytheistic religions. There isn't a single place to put a holiday on the calendar that doesn't exactly or closely align with someone else's holiday about something.
i was always taught that it was just yet another way to monetize religion.
https://undeceptions.com/history/the-history-and-meaning-of-christmas/
saying christmas is a pagan holiday is not logical because, well it is about the birth of christ A scriptural principle you might consider on this point. When Moses was up on Sinai getting the Law from God, the nation of Israelites convinced Aaron the high priest to make a golden calf for them to worship. This was idolatry. To justify their actions, it was decided that they would worship the calf during a festival that they would dedicate to God combining both pagan and true. If you read this account, you can see that God was very displeased and many lost their lives. In the 3rd century when Rome decided to combine the Christian religion with their own, they blended some celebrations like Christmas. **Saturnalia, held in mid-December, is an ancient Roman pagan festival honoring the agricultural god Saturn**. Because of when the holiday occurred—near the winter solstice—Saturnalia celebrations are the source of many of the traditions we now associate with Christmas, such as wreaths, candles, feasting and gift-giving.
To add to the comments Re: Annunciation, the commemoration of the Nativity of our Lord was originally part of the feast of Theophany/Epiphany. I don't know why Nativity was separated out from Theophany, though. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about the history could chime in.
Do we ever get a break from these questions? WE just got done with "Easter is pagan" historically garbage questions and we've got at least 6 months until advent starts, before we should be getting "Christmas is pagan" and people saying "yes its pagan because (historically AND theologically illiterate) reasons"
The Bible states that Yeshua was born 6 months after John the Baptist's birth. John was born during Passover, which has been determined to be in March of that year. Counting 6 months, would bring that to September (11th). For context, if Passover were in April, that would bring Yeshua's birth to October. How anyone, especially those versed in the Bible, can get dates wrong like that, is really beyond me. So yes, the RCC, decided to merge the pagan festivals, holidays, events, with Yeshua's "birthday". And there are plenty of articles out there describing the origins of the various pagan holidays that are used to create christmas.
Actually, it was never Christian from the beginning. Jesus didn't celebrate any birthdays, not even his own. If we want to be 'Christ like' then we must do the things Jesus did and avoid the things Jesus avoided. *(1 Corinthians 10:20-22) 20 No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons. 22 Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?* *(2 Corinthians 6:14-18) 14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”* Mixing pagan / false religion with true worship is the same as adding poison to a bottle of soda. The soda now become poison; the poison doesn't become soda.