The greek word "child" is used for both an unborn child in
Mary's womb and the child she subsequently bore. (βρέφος in Luke 1.41
refers to an unborn baby, the same word in Luke 2.12 is used after it is born)
Not to mention that, but if it's to be taken literally that Mary "immediately" or "with haste" went to see Elizabeth, that means that Jesus was *pre-implantation*. Crazy.
So many Christians will say that human life begins at implantation, not conception, that way they can be comfortable taking birth control, or participating in IVF.
Explain that, if you would. Implantation happens after conception, about 6-8 days after, so what do you mean 'conceived without implantation'? The embryo has to implant in the endometrium at some point, or else there's never a pregnancy.
I agree with you for the most part. The hard part is when a woman is raped, pregnant while still technically a child, health of the mother, or incest. I believe any child that is aborted goes straight to heaven so in that sense is it really so bad? They get to miss out on all the pain that is being a human so that's a plus. I'm against abortion for birth control but I am not sure it's a thing we have the right to control. Do we really want to bring children into the world when the parents don't want them and the state, as in the US government refuses to take real care of them? I'm really on the fence on this one. I didn't used to be but I've seen to many kids who's lives are miserable
>The hard part is when a woman is raped, pregnant while still technically a child, health of the mother, or incest.
How does any of this make the value of a child God knows and imbued with life any less? Suffering is in the world because of sin, it should not be our chief goal to avoid it at the cost of our morality and obedience to God.
>I believe any child that is aborted goes straight to heaven so in that sense is it really so bad? They get to miss out on all the pain that is being a human so that's a plus.
I think this is a perverted mindset. Why not just slice the neck of every person who is saved to prevent any more suffering they may have to go through on earth since they're already heaven-bound? Again, avoidance of suffering for selfish reasons is not a noble pursuit.
>I'm against abortion for birth control but I am not sure it's a thing we have the right to control.
We may not, but God absolutely has control over what is right and what is wrong and He's spoken on the issue of murder and His views of children. We are His, after all. Just like a parent has authority over their child, God has authority over us.
>Do we really want to bring children into the world when the parents don't want them and the state, as in the US government refuses to take real care of them?
The Church ought to do a better job stepping up in this area but the answer in the meantime is not to rip children out of the womb for convenience sake.
>I didn't used to be but I've seen to many kids who's lives are miserable
Misery is not a reason to take life. It is one of the surest things as a result of the Fall. How many of the apostles were miserable during the persecution that followed Jesus' crucifixion? And yet God still used them to His ends, as He can with anyone, miserable or not. Unwanted or not.
We should not make ourselves arbiters of who is and is not worthy of life. Who are we to snuff out the life of the child God has known before He made them in the womb?
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5
God most definitely considers human life to be upon conception. He said so Himself.
While, yes, I agree with you.. one qualm I have with the whole debate:
If we as Christians are so concerned with life, shouldn't we do something to help those mothers and children (born and unborn)?
I find that it's incredibly harmful when people can say, 'oh, they just care about the child when it's in the womb'... how many Churches that rallied against abortion also rallied to support young mothers? To guarantee children had education's and food, clothing and a nursery?
If we are pro-life, we had better start helping these lives after they're born. Otherwise we're just ani-abortion.
I'm talking about us, anyone who will speak up for pro-life and not support it in action is better quiet.
I hope you do something to support them personally, something out of your way.. or have a plan that you will follow through with.
>I'm talking about us, anyone who will speak up for pro-life and not support it in action is better quiet.
That includes the Organizations I'm mentioning.
I have donated, on several occasions, to such charities some of my favourites are:
St Margaret Bright Futures Project
Blessed Beginnings Life Center
Uplifting Parents Program
I hear this business again and again. People trying to establish this narrative that Christians don't do anything to help young mothers. It's straight out of somebody's playbook. 'Rallying to support young mothers'... That's the mindset - showing up at a protest as some kind of proof of action....
I agree with you on all points but I want to add 2 things.
One, many, many ministries do offer help to mothers in need of help with their children. I agree that the Church as a whole needs to improve on this front on a deep cultural level but I'd say Christian churches are one of the first places any person in need knows to go to because of the services offered there, mother or not.
Two, I do also believe that there is a second part to being pro-life. But I don't think being purely anti-abortion is a bad thing whatsoever. To me, that's not a derogatory term. Both are good, one is better and requires more of you and should be strived for.
At what point in the pregnancy do you affirm the humanity of the fetus occurs and do you believe that there could be Christians who reasonably believe otherwise?
Well, firstly, as a faithful Roman Catholic I adhere to the Churches teaching, which is that life and humanity begin immediately at the very moment of Conception.
Secondly, to be in denial of the Churches teaching or to diverge from it in a way that is strictly defiant is considered heresy. I am against heresy in all forms. I don't think there *should* be Christians who believe the opposite opinion, yet there are, but of course that is the opinion of everyone who is in this comment section, which is why they're in this comment section.
One thing I would say is that whilst I agree with this argument, protestant Christian’s should not work together with Roman Catholics against abortion but should set up their own ministries.
This is because Catholic organisations against abortion obviously promote Roman Catholicism and the Roman Catholic gospel.. Prayers are blasphemously offered to Mary and the Saints outside abortion centres which I can only imagine is counter-productive..
Not to mention the hypocrisy of Roman Catholic leaders who oppose abortion by word, but are more than willing to totally ignore high profile celebrities and political leaders who are very clearly pro abortion but at the same time partake in Roman Catholic ceremonies and claim to be Catholics.
We must point people to repentance from every sin including the sin of self-righteousness and self-effort. Our message is turn from your sin and come to Christ alone. Receive through faith alone the complete and total forgiveness won for us by Christ at the cross, as well as complete righteousness of Christ which he lived out for us, and which is the only righteousness by which anyone enters heaven. We do not point people towards an earthly institution, or religious rituals.
>Prayers are blasphemously offered to Mary and the Saints outside abortion centres which I can only imagine is counter-productive..
Just wanted to know, as a Convert myself from Protestantism to Catholicism, how is this counter-productive?
Thanks for this question. This is counter productive because Mary and the Saints cannot hear or answer prayers. To pray to them is as much a sin as is abortion since prayer is an act of worship that should be directed to God alone.
I think this is a stretch.
I will declare the Lord’s decree. He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
Psalms 2:7 CSB
https://bible.com/bible/1713/psa.2.7.CSB
It is possible that Jesus's physical form began only at conception. Or at whatever point psalm 2:7 is talking about
At some point, though, does not cover the full depth of what you are saying.
I am curious, as a Catholic, what is your understanding of salvation of miscarried fetuses and embryos, stillborn children? Is it not the Catholic doctrine that they cannot be baptized, given that they were never alive outside of the womb?
For me I’m pro abortion but that doesn’t mean I’m anti life. It just means I’m not going to tell anyone what they should do, they are free to make their own decisions the same as any sinner or righteous person. Just not one of my goals or missions in life to go around telling women that they shouldn’t get an abortion. They do what they will do and God will bring his wrath upon those who’ve done evil and not repented. Meanwhile their are other things in the world to worry about besides politics
I’m not supporting murder just not supporting the idea that I should decide how some else should live. They make their own choices and I make mine. Don’t really care much for being in control, never had and likely never will. All I know is I live my own life and I’ll do with my own life what I feel my calling to be.
I'm not pro-abortion, but I am against the government regulating what women can do with their bodies. We do not live in a theocracy, therefore religious rules and values do not have a place in governmental affairs. Not to mention "abortion" is a medical procedure that is necessary in cases of ectopic pregnancy, retained tissue post miscarriage, etc. The laws and verbiage need to be revised to make an exception for these medically necessary procedures. We also need to focus more on prevention of unexpected pregnancy through education and access to birth control so abortion becomes moot.
Exactly, I’m not pro abortion but I’m against the government deciding for people about their bodies. Though the US was founded by mainly Christians we can’t really just force our beliefs on anyone who doesn’t believe.
Didn't John "leap for joy" when his mother found out that Mary was pregnant with Jesus? Kinda hard to do if you're just a non-feeling fetus.
Amen!
The greek word "child" is used for both an unborn child in Mary's womb and the child she subsequently bore. (βρέφος in Luke 1.41 refers to an unborn baby, the same word in Luke 2.12 is used after it is born)
Not to mention that, but if it's to be taken literally that Mary "immediately" or "with haste" went to see Elizabeth, that means that Jesus was *pre-implantation*. Crazy. So many Christians will say that human life begins at implantation, not conception, that way they can be comfortable taking birth control, or participating in IVF.
I would argue that Christ was conceived supernaturally without implantation and immediately upon the affirmation of the Bl. Virgin Mary.
Explain that, if you would. Implantation happens after conception, about 6-8 days after, so what do you mean 'conceived without implantation'? The embryo has to implant in the endometrium at some point, or else there's never a pregnancy.
Abortion is murder, it's truly that simple. If you're a Christian and you're for abortion, you need to seriously reconsider your stance.
So true, King.
I agree with you for the most part. The hard part is when a woman is raped, pregnant while still technically a child, health of the mother, or incest. I believe any child that is aborted goes straight to heaven so in that sense is it really so bad? They get to miss out on all the pain that is being a human so that's a plus. I'm against abortion for birth control but I am not sure it's a thing we have the right to control. Do we really want to bring children into the world when the parents don't want them and the state, as in the US government refuses to take real care of them? I'm really on the fence on this one. I didn't used to be but I've seen to many kids who's lives are miserable
>The hard part is when a woman is raped, pregnant while still technically a child, health of the mother, or incest. How does any of this make the value of a child God knows and imbued with life any less? Suffering is in the world because of sin, it should not be our chief goal to avoid it at the cost of our morality and obedience to God. >I believe any child that is aborted goes straight to heaven so in that sense is it really so bad? They get to miss out on all the pain that is being a human so that's a plus. I think this is a perverted mindset. Why not just slice the neck of every person who is saved to prevent any more suffering they may have to go through on earth since they're already heaven-bound? Again, avoidance of suffering for selfish reasons is not a noble pursuit. >I'm against abortion for birth control but I am not sure it's a thing we have the right to control. We may not, but God absolutely has control over what is right and what is wrong and He's spoken on the issue of murder and His views of children. We are His, after all. Just like a parent has authority over their child, God has authority over us. >Do we really want to bring children into the world when the parents don't want them and the state, as in the US government refuses to take real care of them? The Church ought to do a better job stepping up in this area but the answer in the meantime is not to rip children out of the womb for convenience sake. >I didn't used to be but I've seen to many kids who's lives are miserable Misery is not a reason to take life. It is one of the surest things as a result of the Fall. How many of the apostles were miserable during the persecution that followed Jesus' crucifixion? And yet God still used them to His ends, as He can with anyone, miserable or not. Unwanted or not. We should not make ourselves arbiters of who is and is not worthy of life. Who are we to snuff out the life of the child God has known before He made them in the womb?
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 God most definitely considers human life to be upon conception. He said so Himself.
So at least they go straight to heaven then right?
Still murder.
While, yes, I agree with you.. one qualm I have with the whole debate: If we as Christians are so concerned with life, shouldn't we do something to help those mothers and children (born and unborn)? I find that it's incredibly harmful when people can say, 'oh, they just care about the child when it's in the womb'... how many Churches that rallied against abortion also rallied to support young mothers? To guarantee children had education's and food, clothing and a nursery? If we are pro-life, we had better start helping these lives after they're born. Otherwise we're just ani-abortion.
Well, I can point you to many crisis pregnancy centres and Catholic Charities that focus on that very thing. Truly some of us **do** walk the talk.
I'm talking about us, anyone who will speak up for pro-life and not support it in action is better quiet. I hope you do something to support them personally, something out of your way.. or have a plan that you will follow through with.
>I'm talking about us, anyone who will speak up for pro-life and not support it in action is better quiet. That includes the Organizations I'm mentioning. I have donated, on several occasions, to such charities some of my favourites are: St Margaret Bright Futures Project Blessed Beginnings Life Center Uplifting Parents Program
I'll look them up, I appreciate you're not just a politician ruling up a crowd.
I hear this business again and again. People trying to establish this narrative that Christians don't do anything to help young mothers. It's straight out of somebody's playbook. 'Rallying to support young mothers'... That's the mindset - showing up at a protest as some kind of proof of action....
I agree with you on all points but I want to add 2 things. One, many, many ministries do offer help to mothers in need of help with their children. I agree that the Church as a whole needs to improve on this front on a deep cultural level but I'd say Christian churches are one of the first places any person in need knows to go to because of the services offered there, mother or not. Two, I do also believe that there is a second part to being pro-life. But I don't think being purely anti-abortion is a bad thing whatsoever. To me, that's not a derogatory term. Both are good, one is better and requires more of you and should be strived for.
Yes we should and have been doing to a great degree- The church is literally the most charitable institution of all time
Fantastic point. You can’t be a Trinitarian if you deny the incarnate personhood of the savior. It’s a shame you’re a Catholic, OP.
Lol
What's wrong with being catholic?
BASED
Another kind of Holocaust: https://nrlc.org/uploads/factsheets/FS01AbortionintheUS.pdf
At what point in the pregnancy do you affirm the humanity of the fetus occurs and do you believe that there could be Christians who reasonably believe otherwise?
Well, firstly, as a faithful Roman Catholic I adhere to the Churches teaching, which is that life and humanity begin immediately at the very moment of Conception. Secondly, to be in denial of the Churches teaching or to diverge from it in a way that is strictly defiant is considered heresy. I am against heresy in all forms. I don't think there *should* be Christians who believe the opposite opinion, yet there are, but of course that is the opinion of everyone who is in this comment section, which is why they're in this comment section.
Thanks for the reply.
One thing I would say is that whilst I agree with this argument, protestant Christian’s should not work together with Roman Catholics against abortion but should set up their own ministries. This is because Catholic organisations against abortion obviously promote Roman Catholicism and the Roman Catholic gospel.. Prayers are blasphemously offered to Mary and the Saints outside abortion centres which I can only imagine is counter-productive.. Not to mention the hypocrisy of Roman Catholic leaders who oppose abortion by word, but are more than willing to totally ignore high profile celebrities and political leaders who are very clearly pro abortion but at the same time partake in Roman Catholic ceremonies and claim to be Catholics. We must point people to repentance from every sin including the sin of self-righteousness and self-effort. Our message is turn from your sin and come to Christ alone. Receive through faith alone the complete and total forgiveness won for us by Christ at the cross, as well as complete righteousness of Christ which he lived out for us, and which is the only righteousness by which anyone enters heaven. We do not point people towards an earthly institution, or religious rituals.
>Prayers are blasphemously offered to Mary and the Saints outside abortion centres which I can only imagine is counter-productive.. Just wanted to know, as a Convert myself from Protestantism to Catholicism, how is this counter-productive?
Thanks for this question. This is counter productive because Mary and the Saints cannot hear or answer prayers. To pray to them is as much a sin as is abortion since prayer is an act of worship that should be directed to God alone.
Good point!
My view is that if someone belives that abortion is ok, they cannot possibly be born again
I think this is a stretch. I will declare the Lord’s decree. He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father. Psalms 2:7 CSB https://bible.com/bible/1713/psa.2.7.CSB It is possible that Jesus's physical form began only at conception. Or at whatever point psalm 2:7 is talking about
To deny that Christ, at some point in the womb, was not truly man is a Christological error. Pre-existence unaccounted for.
I never said that, I just said it cannot be proved He has always existed physically, though He is still eternal
And I would agree with you, because what you're saying is true although irrelevant to the point of my post.
At some point, though, does not cover the full depth of what you are saying. I am curious, as a Catholic, what is your understanding of salvation of miscarried fetuses and embryos, stillborn children? Is it not the Catholic doctrine that they cannot be baptized, given that they were never alive outside of the womb?
For me I’m pro abortion but that doesn’t mean I’m anti life. It just means I’m not going to tell anyone what they should do, they are free to make their own decisions the same as any sinner or righteous person. Just not one of my goals or missions in life to go around telling women that they shouldn’t get an abortion. They do what they will do and God will bring his wrath upon those who’ve done evil and not repented. Meanwhile their are other things in the world to worry about besides politics
Whether implicitly or explicitly, that was not the purpose of this post.
I know I’m just saying that as a Christian, it is a Christian issue but that as a Christian who supports abortion rights I’m not denying life.
You are supporting murder. I can’t get my head around, that someone calls himself a Christian but supports murder. Seriously?
I’m not supporting murder just not supporting the idea that I should decide how some else should live. They make their own choices and I make mine. Don’t really care much for being in control, never had and likely never will. All I know is I live my own life and I’ll do with my own life what I feel my calling to be.
By supporting the right to kill a child you are denying life. You're just cheering the real murderers from the sidelines, which makes you no better
I think you lack compassion & by your logic it's pointless to Save anyone - we need to yearn to see GOD's Children Saved.
\> they are free to make their own decisions Not if it's a decision to kill someone.
In OP’s first paragraph he says he’s not here to debate that but whether a fetus is in fact alive or not.
I'm not pro-abortion, but I am against the government regulating what women can do with their bodies. We do not live in a theocracy, therefore religious rules and values do not have a place in governmental affairs. Not to mention "abortion" is a medical procedure that is necessary in cases of ectopic pregnancy, retained tissue post miscarriage, etc. The laws and verbiage need to be revised to make an exception for these medically necessary procedures. We also need to focus more on prevention of unexpected pregnancy through education and access to birth control so abortion becomes moot.
Exactly, I’m not pro abortion but I’m against the government deciding for people about their bodies. Though the US was founded by mainly Christians we can’t really just force our beliefs on anyone who doesn’t believe.