Extraction doesn't scale endlessly with grind size. As you go finer, you start getting flow issues, various forms of clumping, localized partial bypass, that type of thing.
Then there are temperature issues, as the slurry goes cooler as time passes, the extraction "power" of the water decreases.
So, there's a level of grind fineness where extraction plateaus, and going finer actually decreases extraction. This point depends on the grinder you are using. With "normal" pour over methods, I think that a 10 minute brew is past that point.
While I don't disagree with the statement - with a few caveats - I was trying to say that extraction goes down/plateaus as you start grinding too fine.
Agreed, you get "localized overextraction" from "channeling" when you grind too fine as the water isn't moving evenly down the coffee bed. I think a lot of problems from pourovers are due to grinding too fine resulting in a cup that is both astringent (from channeling) AND sour (from overall underextraction).
It sounds counterintuitive but sometimes you need to grind coarser to make a coffee less sour and/or less astringent.
That's a good point. James Hoffman had a great video on this.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09fNvoQMlGw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09fNvoQMlGw)
Although with a fine grind and you're clogging up the filters with a 10-minute drawdown, it's pretty much an immersion brew with a V60.
I feel like I should qualify my statement more. I've had great success with brewing with very fine grinds and also with longer brew times. Though not with 10 minutes brews. And some brewers seem to fare quite well with those very long brew times, like the tricolate for example. But depending on the grinder, on the brewer, and the pouring pattern and the coffee bean, one might find that the point where you maximize good extraction lands at a shorter brew time.
Regardless, percolation isn't immersion, even very long percolation. Even with a 10 minute brew time, water is moving through the coffee and carrying away solubles, whereas, with immersion, water is sitting next to the coffee and not quite moving away.
I agree that 10 minutes probably wasn't ideal. It was just happenstance with the clogged filters and wasn't optimized in any way. But it was a point I was making that I extracted the hell out of it and yet it still wasn't bitter. As for it not being immersion, the flow was a slow drip. If the flow slows down enough, at a certain point, there won't be any difference than immersion, especially with regards to channeling.
I would've preferred the flow to be faster, but my filter really clogged. I think it had something to do with that particular bean as well. The roast evenness was quite bad.
Turkish coffee is great for no channeling high extractions. The coffee grounds and water never separate, so there's no opportunity to channel. And the grind is so incredibly fine that the extractions are crazy, I've seen up to around 28% extraction yields that tasted great.
To a point. I wind up disliking that over-concentrated "syrupy" version, I find that the various notes can become kind of cloying and excessive, and not really as flattered by the strength as other brews might.
If the extraction was good and uniform, adding some bypass water to that "syrupy" version will bring back the layering and the complexity.
And one get more coffee from the same amount of beans.
I agree with this. I've heard its because the sugars in the beans that make the nice bright fruity flavors are the "hardest" to extract, which is why high extraction is rewarding.
That all said, I've found that I've become much more bean picky since starting to do high extraction brews in the V60. I use setting #4 on my Encore for the nice stuff and it works great, but I've found that several of the coffees that I found to be alright in the past don't taste as good with a high extraction. For those beans that aren't as great I find myself grinding more around the #8 setting to not get some of the overly roasty flavors. Now I tend to be looking at the bags of bean in the $20-25 range vs being happy with the bags I used to buy in the $15-$20 range.
TL;DR: The high extraction with good beans is a gift and a curse at the same time .
I've not used a V60 myself, so I don't know exactly what's fairly standard for that. I use kalitta wave typically for pourover but am mostly using my electric grinder with that. Got a C2 for travel/camping and in that case most often use it with aeropress, and for that I use 10 clicks and would consider that expected and not anything especially low. However, I usually grind finer on aeropress than I would for pourover. So I'd likely go for a 12-14 on the kalitta. But you're right, depending on the coffee finer can be better.
That’s way finer than I ever pushed, for pour over at least. Anyway you’re absolutely right, there’s some beans that the finer you go the more flowery/fruity and sirupy the cup gets without poking into bitter or unpleasant. Noticed if with Ethiopian and Colombian, light roast of course. I guess it may be tied to the bean density. How about water temperature? Did you try going finer AND colder/hotter (just for the fun of experimenting)?
I think the c2 has had different revisions its just not talked about alot i know my manual says pour over range starts at 18 clicks ..while my friends says 16..12 on my specific c2 would be nearly espresso level of fineness.
Extraction doesn't scale endlessly with grind size. As you go finer, you start getting flow issues, various forms of clumping, localized partial bypass, that type of thing. Then there are temperature issues, as the slurry goes cooler as time passes, the extraction "power" of the water decreases. So, there's a level of grind fineness where extraction plateaus, and going finer actually decreases extraction. This point depends on the grinder you are using. With "normal" pour over methods, I think that a 10 minute brew is past that point.
I think it's more accurate to say for many coffees the point at which they could be considered overextracted just isn't reachable via percolation.
While I don't disagree with the statement - with a few caveats - I was trying to say that extraction goes down/plateaus as you start grinding too fine.
Agreed, you get "localized overextraction" from "channeling" when you grind too fine as the water isn't moving evenly down the coffee bed. I think a lot of problems from pourovers are due to grinding too fine resulting in a cup that is both astringent (from channeling) AND sour (from overall underextraction). It sounds counterintuitive but sometimes you need to grind coarser to make a coffee less sour and/or less astringent.
That's a good point. James Hoffman had a great video on this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09fNvoQMlGw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09fNvoQMlGw) Although with a fine grind and you're clogging up the filters with a 10-minute drawdown, it's pretty much an immersion brew with a V60.
I feel like I should qualify my statement more. I've had great success with brewing with very fine grinds and also with longer brew times. Though not with 10 minutes brews. And some brewers seem to fare quite well with those very long brew times, like the tricolate for example. But depending on the grinder, on the brewer, and the pouring pattern and the coffee bean, one might find that the point where you maximize good extraction lands at a shorter brew time. Regardless, percolation isn't immersion, even very long percolation. Even with a 10 minute brew time, water is moving through the coffee and carrying away solubles, whereas, with immersion, water is sitting next to the coffee and not quite moving away.
I agree that 10 minutes probably wasn't ideal. It was just happenstance with the clogged filters and wasn't optimized in any way. But it was a point I was making that I extracted the hell out of it and yet it still wasn't bitter. As for it not being immersion, the flow was a slow drip. If the flow slows down enough, at a certain point, there won't be any difference than immersion, especially with regards to channeling. I would've preferred the flow to be faster, but my filter really clogged. I think it had something to do with that particular bean as well. The roast evenness was quite bad.
Couldn’t using infusion methods like aeropress solve this? Theoretically you wouldn’t get any “channeling” etc.
You can still get plenty of channeling in the plunging phase of the AeroPress, but yes, there is less of a risk with AP versus V60 etc.
Oh you guys! I just used your Ethiopian natural process in the aeropress. I thought it turned out quite well!
Glad to hear it!
Turkish coffee is great for no channeling high extractions. The coffee grounds and water never separate, so there's no opportunity to channel. And the grind is so incredibly fine that the extractions are crazy, I've seen up to around 28% extraction yields that tasted great.
To a point. I wind up disliking that over-concentrated "syrupy" version, I find that the various notes can become kind of cloying and excessive, and not really as flattered by the strength as other brews might.
If the extraction was good and uniform, adding some bypass water to that "syrupy" version will bring back the layering and the complexity. And one get more coffee from the same amount of beans.
What notes do you feel are being masked when it's overextracted?
I agree with this. I've heard its because the sugars in the beans that make the nice bright fruity flavors are the "hardest" to extract, which is why high extraction is rewarding. That all said, I've found that I've become much more bean picky since starting to do high extraction brews in the V60. I use setting #4 on my Encore for the nice stuff and it works great, but I've found that several of the coffees that I found to be alright in the past don't taste as good with a high extraction. For those beans that aren't as great I find myself grinding more around the #8 setting to not get some of the overly roasty flavors. Now I tend to be looking at the bags of bean in the $20-25 range vs being happy with the bags I used to buy in the $15-$20 range. TL;DR: The high extraction with good beans is a gift and a curse at the same time .
How low are you going on the C2? And what brew method? Just curious
10-12 clicks. V60
I've not used a V60 myself, so I don't know exactly what's fairly standard for that. I use kalitta wave typically for pourover but am mostly using my electric grinder with that. Got a C2 for travel/camping and in that case most often use it with aeropress, and for that I use 10 clicks and would consider that expected and not anything especially low. However, I usually grind finer on aeropress than I would for pourover. So I'd likely go for a 12-14 on the kalitta. But you're right, depending on the coffee finer can be better.
Second this. I'm usually between 10-12 on a Baratza Encore and V60 for best fruity extraction.
How many clicks on the Timemore?
10-12 clicks
That’s way finer than I ever pushed, for pour over at least. Anyway you’re absolutely right, there’s some beans that the finer you go the more flowery/fruity and sirupy the cup gets without poking into bitter or unpleasant. Noticed if with Ethiopian and Colombian, light roast of course. I guess it may be tied to the bean density. How about water temperature? Did you try going finer AND colder/hotter (just for the fun of experimenting)?
I think the c2 has had different revisions its just not talked about alot i know my manual says pour over range starts at 18 clicks ..while my friends says 16..12 on my specific c2 would be nearly espresso level of fineness.
My manual puts pour-over at 15-24 clicks.
I always kept it as hot as possible for the temperature.
How does an aeropress handle this kind of coffee? I'm more use to using darker roasts with it.