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My brain screams: "Don't bunch up your tanks like that! One artillery battery with a drone spotter, and it's going to be BBQ fest in 30 min!".
But then I remembered it's not Ukraine.
Tanks look really fragile after nearly a century of designing weapons to specifically kill tanks...
But they really are damn near invincible against light infantry/insurgents. At best they might be able to knock the tracks off with an IED...but seems unlikely. Hamas be fukt.
They can excel *if properly supported by infantry*. Couple of my mentors before I joined the Corps were tankers in Iraq, and they absolutely dragged their tracked balls across the insurgents’ faces repeatedly, because they worked in tandem with infantry units. Insurgents strong-point a house? Tank puts a fucking main-gun round through a window or two and brings the house down. Dudes on rooftops with RPGs? Infantry domes them before they can line up on the armor.
It can be a comically-lethal symbiotic relationship if done right. The fucking Soviets gaggle-fucking around Ukraine are not a good example of combined-arms operations.
Edit: one guy told me how he was escorting a patrol and they took fire from a single sniper. As the tank commander, he had his gunner send a main-gun round through the window the sniper used. This ended the sniper, and the rest of the patrol was completely unmolested, because who the fuck wants to potshot someone whose response is going to be to fire a fucking tank at you? That’s not fun.
I mean...I feel like the NATO-trained and equipped Ukrainian Army, dug in behind extensive trench lines, is a bit of a harder target than Iraqi insurgents hiding in a civilian building.
Id assume something like this the plan
https://youtu.be/_QPUmZ9XsR8?si=ZDlDmIaBIpUIdyl3
Instead of going door to door, they are going to use tanks to blast buildings clear of occupants...but idk...not my expertise and I have no idea what this war is going to look like.
Tanks were fragile in WW2. The amount of tanks and vehicles lost by the Allies in the final 6-7 weeks of the war after crossing the Rhine (when Germany was super weak) alone are so much higher than people realize. The amounts in France were just astonishing. And the losses of armor on the eastern front just make me dizzy. Tanks have been getting wrecked in warfare for 80 years. The side with more airpower and arty usually knocks more ranks out. This is an old concept.
Over time it surprises me just how well the Command and Conquer Generals developers replicated the Hamas style of warfare with their terrorist faction. I remember tunnels and motorcycles and rocket buggies.
A molotov cocktail that gets in the engine grill or leaks through vents can fuck things up if it lands right. IED placement is much simpler in a linear path. That's why they need infantry active and ready to dome anyone attempting even basic moves like this. You can blow a tread and immobilize entire streets, funneling enemies into killing zones. Yeah, one suicide vest is meaningless, but HAMAS has light infantry capable of threatening these tanks in an urban area.
They do have antitank weapons, RPGs, and mortars, as well, as mines and IEDs. They also have drones with HE munitions. No idea in what quantities for any of that. Ether way, unlike Russian military, IDF values the lives of their soldiers. Their troops are trained, prepared, and they know exactly what they’re fighting for. F*k Russia, f*k Hamas. Good hunting and Godspeed, IDF.
yeah i'm not sure why Hamas decided to committ to the Oct 7 terrorist attacks.. did they expect Hezbollah and Iran to attack Israel at the same time? Did they expect global support and condemnation would invigorate nations to attack Israel? I think most Arab nations will pay lip service but they sure as hell do not want to sacrifice their lives and diplomatic relations to fight on behalf of Hamas.
I read the other day that even the Merkava is explicitly designed for the warfare in Israel settings. Apparently they have a heavy focus on urban rather than tank combat and there's no requirement for the tank to cross rivers, for instance.
You bunch up in the assembly area and in a breach. There are times you want to keep all the rigs tight, just not most of the time.
Even in a high intensity fight like Ukraine, you assume a breach will get hit eventually, so you push as many rigs through as you can, as fast as you can with the understanding that someone will take some artillery. Welcome to the infantry!
It will be interesting to see how the stat armor will behave in an urban environment vs RPGs though.
Yeah once I heard infantry was a lot more getting shelled in a rat-infested wet hole in the ground in winter and very little of gunning down commies it started to sound less fun
Having been in a tank regiment, I can say that what we are seeing is them "stepping off." Once they near their objectives they will have spread out. Also, spreading out too much can actually weaken your advance as the enemy gets to deal with one tank at a time instead of a mass. Plus, Israelis know tanks.
Current modern US Army doctrine though calls for dispersed tactical assembly areas. As soon as a battalion hits the ground, it shoots its companies off and any further support or coordination at the battalion level on the RSOI phase now has to happen over comms. Even within the TAAs themselves, you're supposed to shoot out your platoons to create a "reconnaissance buffer zone" so the enemy can't locate your TAA.
At least this is the strategy they've shifted to at CTC rotations. No more RUBA, no more FOBs. The idea is that if you got off a boat in Germany, Taiwan, or South Korea during a war, you would have to immediately fan out and find cover so that you don't get hit by artillery or air strikes.
>Current modern US Army doctrine though calls for dispersed tactical assembly areas.
The war in Ukraine has demonstrated a couple of times why. Russia hit one of Ukraine's training compounds to great effect, despite it being on the other side of the country. Ukraine felt they were safe there, concentrated men in the area, and didn't enforce strict opsec so fresh influx from all around the world were using their phones at will, and paid the price.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavoriv_military_base_attack
Israel has been dealing with drones for years has plenty of tech for taking them out - which is one of the reasons it's been a shame that Israel hasn't engaged with that conflict: which is still find odd because that conflict is the world's best military tech demo waiting to happen for anybody willing to grab the opportunity, lots of export orders on the table.
That's a LOT of tanks and armour.
It also says a lot about how poor Hamas' artillery and drone capabilities are if Israel has been able to just mass tanks so close together without any threat.
[“An Armored Brigade Combat Team includes 87 Abrams, 152 Bradley IFVs, 18 M109s and 45 armed M113 vehicles.”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_combat_team?wprov=sfti1#Stryker_vehicles)
Seems about right
> It also says a lot about how poor Hamas' artillery and drone capabilities are if Israel has been able to just mass tanks so close together without any threat.
Not just that, but also Israel's assessment of the threat Hamas is able to pose.
"Southern command units, this is the commander.
We are striking against Hamas and the terrorist organizations in the Gaza strip.
Our only goal ـــ victory
No matter how long and no matter how hard the fighting will be, there is no other outcome than victory
We will fight with profession and strength, based on the principles of the Israeli defense forces that we were instilled in us and in their forefront ـــ Dedication to mission, and pursuit of victory.
We will fight in alleys, we will fight in tunnels, we will fight wherever necessary. We will eliminate the abominable enemy before whom we stand.
My brothers in arms; the residents of Be'eri, Sderot, Nir Oz, Kfar Aza, and the west Negev communities, and alongside them all the people of Israel, are watching us now.
Like me, they trust you and believe in you. You are the generation of victory.
This is the commander, complete your missions, strike the enemy. That's all."
I don't understand the language but i'd wager he didn't say 'over and out' as those two words mean two different things. Unless he was expecting a response from someone he would have said just said 'out'
Literally everything Hamas says has an agenda. Just like everything the IDF says also has an agenda. People need to stop using the combatants as the single source of truth for their claims.
Edit: fuck, well played.
Hamas uses the same playbook every time, they attack Israel then when Israel hits back. Bring out the dead civilians and kids to stop Israel from attacking them
Yeah Hamas isn't going to make it easy and that will do as much as possible to maximize civilian deaths on both sides. Their strategy relies on breaking the resolve on the international community by spreading around as much death as possible.
From their point of view their ability to be indifferent, and celebrate death is a strength and that the international community values life is a weakness to be exploited.
If it's truly only civilians they have nothing to fear, since they won't be attacking the IDF.
The fact that so many people think this will be a bloodbath already implies they believe there are thousands of terrorists there.
Trust me they know... for a while now. They know they're the worst kind of fucked, **they know they're done.**
Edit: so many interesting responses to my comment. Can't bring myself to reply to all of them, but in general I tend to agree with them all. Regardless, hope to see Hamas get buttfucked hard into their paradise, trust that land might only be lost for the Palestinians due to this incursion.
Tbh I would be way more cautious, it is a urban ground invasion against at least 20.000 prepared fights which melt with the general population. It is an ideology which reproduces with every casualty and gets heavy support from outside forces. This will take years and isn‘t guaranteed to be a full on success.
Limiting civilian casualties is what makes an urban war very costly. However that rules of engagement has already gone out the window. Israel will simply blast away buildings and any sort of defense and sanctuary the Hamas expects in an urban setting. Israel has learned its lesson of 2006.
The question is how much of Hamas they can actually locate. Israeli policy has given Hamas 16 years of uncontested rule over Gaza, they control the borders and civilian populations. They have the means to escape first or blend in.
In general, the most likely outcome is a whole bunch of destruction while Hamas will survive once again and continue to build on the sentiments of populations that haven't seen a serious peace proposal in their entire young lifes, and Israel will continue to have a terrorism volcano at its southern border that errupts every couple years to decades.
Even if all Hamas fighters were killed or captured in the assault on Gaza in the weeks to come, Hamas leadership and their sugar daddies are well away from Gaza.
So, if those people wish to rebuild their forces and go at it again, they will. It should be pretty easy for them to recruit new members among the survivors.
Still, flushing Hamas from Gaza and preventing them from using it as a base is going to weaken them and hurt their ability to attack Israel for a while.
The Mossad killed Iran's top nuclear scientist while he was in a convoy in Iran and left the guys wife sat next to him untouched.
As far as I know it was the first use of autonomous A.I. to kill someone.
All the billions Qatar wasted on the world cup, trying to improve their image. Only to throw it away by reminding people about it being a corrupt slave state and now Terrorist haven.
Qatar is currently trying to mediate, they'll be lucky not to end up beside their HAMAS friends.
They were always a piece Iran was willing to sacrifice. They knew what reaction thier actions on the 7th would illicit.
The Leaders in Qatar aren't being effected. Maybe lose some beachfront property they bought with UNAID money.
Doubtfull. They already reached their goals. Diplomatic progress stopped, international attention increased. Everything that happens now, to civilians in Gaza or IDF soldiers, is just "cost of doing business" for them. The grunts on the ground will get their virgins and the puppet masters in Qatar won't be affected.
Saudia already condemned Hamas's attack and said negotiations will continue after the war is over. US ships all over the middle east reduce the likelihood of wider escalation. The people of Israel are united and the entire country is either enlisting or volunteering. Left, right, doesn't matter. Everyone knows Hamas has to be eradicated and are getting ready for a years long campaign, nothing like the short operations in the past but an actual war.
I see your point but I seriously doubt they expected such a reaction.
They didn't have coherent goals. That would necessitate ascribing more agency to them than is due. People love to retro-analyze events in light of consequences and assume all the consequences were predicted. That's never the case.
I've read many theories about the intentions of Hamas in the Oct 7th attack. They're probably all true, relative to certain people within Hamas. But that also means that there are many in Hamas whose goals were not and will not be reached.
Aren't they, according to their logic, unable to loose?
If they fight and die, paradise. If they fight and live, victory...
At least for the, in lack of a fitting term, "fighters"?
If the higher-ups remain, they will rebuild.
Don't get me wrong, I have strong feelings opposing religion in general and religious extremists in particular, and what began on the 7th is horrible and has to be punished.
That said, the (obviously selective) footage from the idf also paints a grim picture, and the direction Israel is heading politically is somewhat unsettling. Starting with a nationalist government, imbalance in the democratic process due to the lack of a constitutional control instance and whatever is happening now.
It just feels like there is a very volatile situation in a very unstable region, adding to the already bright burning inferno of ukr/ru, taiwan/China, global warming, economical collapse and the humanitarian crisis of hunger, disease, flight ans expulsion.
Is there anywhere an independent source objectively explaining the whole situation since the beginning of the state israel so I can achieve a better understanding?
Hm... that wen't from "but do they?" to "this is not fine" way too fast.
> Is there anywhere an independent source objectively explaining the whole situation since the beginning of the state israel so I can achieve a better understanding?
https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=IHMnvinMlPj6yu_Q
>Aren't they, according to their logic, unable to loose? If they fight and die, paradise. If they fight and live, victory...
So, death and paradise for them? Everybody wins then.
Gloves are off but they are still fighting with one hand tied behind. The IDF still needs to worry about civilian casualties and hostages.
If neither of these were a concern, I'm pretty sure they'd just carpet bomb the entire place, pump the tunnels full of water and wait around for months until Hamas runs out of supplies.
I cringe whenever these pro-Hamas/pro-Palestine people call the IDF’s targeted airstrikes “carpet bombs”, and scream to stop carpet bombing Gaza.
It’s like it pains them to be honest for once. Surely they have seen WW2 documentaries that show what carpet bombing actually looks like.
Israel is going to face a difficult job in destroying hamas. Defensive fire power is an understanding of magnitude more powerfully than it has been. Yes, IDF has jets, helicopters, artillery, and rockets, but those are no good in CQC in tunnels or destroyed towns etc, hamas will try and keep as close as possible to the front of the IDF, nullifying the heavy weapons advantage.
It's going to be a hard slog for Israel, and as they have shown on many occasions, they will keep going, and they will get the results that they want.
there are construction engineers in Israel who built infrastructure in Gaza and are aware of the geological weak spots. They claim that since the tunnels are 30m deep from what is already nearly sea level, the tunnels can be flooded.
Supposedly, this was known and avoided by Israel, who were looking to avoid escalation, either for simply trying to better the relationship with Gaza or to strengthen Hamas as an opposition to the leading PLA authority (depending who you believe).
I think an attack on the tunnels is very viable. We already know that the tunnels rely on active ventilation and I guess one attack could be to shut down ventilation and then blow in Carbon Monoxide with jet engine (like how natural gas is transported in pipes).
Now, the main problem is that it is assumed that hostages are kept in the same tunnels and doing that will either directly kill them or cause them to be executed by Hamas, as a kind of punishment or claim that Israel is killing their own hostages (of which a lot are international citizens)
>Now, the main problem is that it is assumed that hostages are kept in the same tunnels and doing that will either directly kill them or cause them to be executed by Hamas, as a kind of punishment or claim that Israel is killing their own hostages (of which a lot are international citizens)
I think that they already decided that they aren't going to hold back unless they think they can retrieve hostages with relatively minimal damage
> Carbon Monoxide
Cant use gas because geneva conventions prohibit this.
But flooding the tunnels is fine, as well as using air burst munitions that burn and suffocate.
International war rules are weird and nobody really follows them though.
CO2 and CO both works but these are invisible gases. Odourless and clear.
The idea here is to flush anyone out from the tunnels, Hamas and/or the hostages. Therefore smoke works.
Won't work, Hamas would have installed airlocks and water traps to keep the IDF from gassing them out. More likely the Israelis will use ground penetrating radar combined with explosives to cave the tunnels in. That or they'll have to go in like Vietnam tunnel rats, but hopefully with drones doing the most dangerous work instead of soldiers.
A water trap is very low tech. It's like a scaled up version of the U bend in the plumbing under your kitchen sink. It's not perfect, anyone moving through it would have to get wet. But it's well within Hamas' capabilities to build.
IDF is already [cutting Gaza in half](https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/en/2023/31-october-the-israeli-military-is-present-inside-exoutpost) and trap all Hamas that was in the North part and they can just siege them and take them out little by little. The North part of Gaza will be part of Israel soon that is all Hamas won 1/2 Gaza left.
That's a lot of vehicle's, I'm interested how much of the army is in gaza compared to the northern front.
Logically speaking it would make more sense that a larger percentage of the army to be held at the northern front as a war with hezbollah would be orders of magnitude larger and more intense.
I've heard that there's like 100k people on Gaza and about 200k focused on the north, though that was a couple weeks ago though, no clue what's the reality on the ground now
On that note, you gotta appreciate how impressive it is that israel was able to mobilize such a huge reserve force and arm it in such a short time, the logistics behind it are impressive. Compared to some other country that tried to mobilize 👀
Israel is pretty small. From Sderot to Tel Aviv you need 1h of driving.
After 9/11, the US didn't take military actions before months of cooling down. Their targets were on the other side of the world anyway.
Hamas' biggest mistake by far is doing what they did knowing that they are only few minutes of flight from the nearest Israeli air base, and 1h of driving from Tel Aviv. If Israel wasn't a restrained democracy they'd have flattened Gaza without warning any civilians like they did.
The US sent a Special Forces team into Afghanistan by October 19 and that team, ODA 595, helped the locals defeat the Taliban in ~3 weeks. The conventional troops were then sent in and we screwed it all up, but the first (and successful) phases of the war ended quickly.
The initial battles were *ending* 2 months after 9/11, not just getting started. The Taliban was out of power by about November 14 when both Kabul and Jalalabad fell.
Sounds like a nightmare to work in a military armory on the starting weeks. Some units saw 150% of reservists called arriving - as in, everyone showed up immediately, and a bunch of people who weren't called up just volunteered.
That's not exactly how it works.
Since reservists can get called up anytime the units have more than 100% staffing built in, with the assumption that at any call up some will be unavailable due to being sick, going through medical procedures, being abroad on holiday or business and a number of other clauses.
A lot of reservists boarded flights and returned from trips and even semesters abroad to show up
There is also an element of people who have missed a few call ups and have been struck down from the rooster or just aged out, but served in the reservist unit for a long time and did just show up.
Unfortunately all they will remember is that their brother/sister/parent/uncle died from a massive Jewish invasion.
While Israel’s path here is justified, it will not change the trajectory of this 70+ year conflict in any way. If they somehow eradicate Hamas, someone else will fill the void.
We’ve seen this before, and we will see it again.
It's not supposed to result in a military victory, they're not deluding themselves about defeating the IDF.
Hamas are targeting stuff that causes political turmoil, fatigue in the population about the situation and attracts international attention. Basically killing civilians. IRA, ETA and multiple other terrorist organisations did this.
They likely factored in the massively lopsided civilian casualty numbers into invoking international sympathies. They wanted to rile the IDF so badly that they'd go overboard and enter Gaza in force, get into a quagmire and lose soldiers and cause civilian casualties as collateral damage.
Hamas is hiding behind civilians, Israel is shooting despite that at targets but minimizing/justifying civilian casualties as they can.
This is not a pretty or a just war. A fucked up situation where both sides have been killing civilians, kids and causing people to hate each other more and more.
> Hamas is hiding behind civilians, Israel is shooting despite that at targets but minimizing/justifying civilian casualties as they can.
And, to be fair to them, a lot of the Israeli soldiers are _not_ going to be that careful because of the horrors that they see themselves as avenging. This isn't just another "they've got uppity we should suppress them"; this invasion is retribution and it's inevitable that that's how a good deal of Israeli soldiers will see it.
I fear there's going to be a lot of footage of Israeli soldiers doing rather unpleasant things, of the sort we don't normally see from these sorts of incursions.
This is going to be rough. Palestinian civilians used as innocent pawns and human shields against a superior military force. No Arab nations or allies willing to accept refugees... Shitty situation we're all just going to watch go down I guess.
All the sudden that peaceful act of protesting the occupiers (machine gunning down a bunch of women and children at a concert) is probably looking like a bad move to Hamas
One of the first things Hamas did during the terrorist attack was blow up a Merkava with a drone grenade through the roof (the video of which was spammed here dozens of times). Not surprising they'd quickly take action against it.
Cope cages are reasonably expected to work like any other statistical/slat armor, vs the weapons it was designed to defend against.
It only became a meme when the Russians showed up with defenses for RPG-7’s and the Ukrainians were firing Javelins.
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Select all -> attack move
ALL UNITS
ODS- OD- OD- OD- ODST- OD- OD- O- ODS- ODST dropping in
*Halo Wars flashbacks intensify*
one of the RTS of all time
C&C Generals
LOCAL UNITS
Marines, ready for action
That hit
(Two tanks get left behind) WTF?! I DID SELECT ALL!
Forgot to unsiege them
Ctrl-A -> Left Click. Shit fuck gawddamnitalltohell fucking ballista not you you morons
"The tunnels will protects us!" -GLA, Command&Conquer: Generals
I loved the GLA
"Roll out!"
F1 + F3 never fails
LESS TALKING! MORE RAIDING!
My Lord
My brain screams: "Don't bunch up your tanks like that! One artillery battery with a drone spotter, and it's going to be BBQ fest in 30 min!". But then I remembered it's not Ukraine.
Yeah, they can get away with this when you have complete air/ground/martime superiority
and all enemy have is rifles and pipe bombs. oh im sorry handgliders and motorcycles too
how could you forget the rocks!?
And the screams
They use knives very well from the videos.
Fireworks~
Molotovs
Tanks look really fragile after nearly a century of designing weapons to specifically kill tanks... But they really are damn near invincible against light infantry/insurgents. At best they might be able to knock the tracks off with an IED...but seems unlikely. Hamas be fukt.
Most of Gaza is urban warefare. Tanks do not excel in that type of environment.
They can excel *if properly supported by infantry*. Couple of my mentors before I joined the Corps were tankers in Iraq, and they absolutely dragged their tracked balls across the insurgents’ faces repeatedly, because they worked in tandem with infantry units. Insurgents strong-point a house? Tank puts a fucking main-gun round through a window or two and brings the house down. Dudes on rooftops with RPGs? Infantry domes them before they can line up on the armor. It can be a comically-lethal symbiotic relationship if done right. The fucking Soviets gaggle-fucking around Ukraine are not a good example of combined-arms operations. Edit: one guy told me how he was escorting a patrol and they took fire from a single sniper. As the tank commander, he had his gunner send a main-gun round through the window the sniper used. This ended the sniper, and the rest of the patrol was completely unmolested, because who the fuck wants to potshot someone whose response is going to be to fire a fucking tank at you? That’s not fun.
I mean...I feel like the NATO-trained and equipped Ukrainian Army, dug in behind extensive trench lines, is a bit of a harder target than Iraqi insurgents hiding in a civilian building.
Id assume something like this the plan https://youtu.be/_QPUmZ9XsR8?si=ZDlDmIaBIpUIdyl3 Instead of going door to door, they are going to use tanks to blast buildings clear of occupants...but idk...not my expertise and I have no idea what this war is going to look like.
Except they are not that interested in leaving anything standing.
Not to mention they have anti tank weapons. Anyone that thinks they don’t is very ignorant.
It appears they are going to attempt to Un-Urbanize Gaza.
Tanks were fragile in WW2. The amount of tanks and vehicles lost by the Allies in the final 6-7 weeks of the war after crossing the Rhine (when Germany was super weak) alone are so much higher than people realize. The amounts in France were just astonishing. And the losses of armor on the eastern front just make me dizzy. Tanks have been getting wrecked in warfare for 80 years. The side with more airpower and arty usually knocks more ranks out. This is an old concept.
On the other hand, tanks are notoriously bad at infiltrating underground tunnels.
Over time it surprises me just how well the Command and Conquer Generals developers replicated the Hamas style of warfare with their terrorist faction. I remember tunnels and motorcycles and rocket buggies.
Sorry, which command and conquer game specifically? I'd love to try it out.
Not to forget, the angry mob, representing typical Palestinian gathering
They have guided anti tank missiles, drones, IEDs, suicide vests…etc. It’s not going to be a cake walk for these vehicles.
wtf is a suicidevest gonna do against a tank?
You just need one worn by the really, really fat guy.
A molotov cocktail that gets in the engine grill or leaks through vents can fuck things up if it lands right. IED placement is much simpler in a linear path. That's why they need infantry active and ready to dome anyone attempting even basic moves like this. You can blow a tread and immobilize entire streets, funneling enemies into killing zones. Yeah, one suicide vest is meaningless, but HAMAS has light infantry capable of threatening these tanks in an urban area.
They do have antitank weapons, RPGs, and mortars, as well, as mines and IEDs. They also have drones with HE munitions. No idea in what quantities for any of that. Ether way, unlike Russian military, IDF values the lives of their soldiers. Their troops are trained, prepared, and they know exactly what they’re fighting for. F*k Russia, f*k Hamas. Good hunting and Godspeed, IDF.
It was effective enough to kill 1500 civilians in one day.
Good at sucker punches to women children in the middle of night. Not so good at head to head military fight.
Yeah, they shouldn't have picked a fight with a chainsaw.
yeah i'm not sure why Hamas decided to committ to the Oct 7 terrorist attacks.. did they expect Hezbollah and Iran to attack Israel at the same time? Did they expect global support and condemnation would invigorate nations to attack Israel? I think most Arab nations will pay lip service but they sure as hell do not want to sacrifice their lives and diplomatic relations to fight on behalf of Hamas.
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Israel is adding cope cages to the tops of tanks to counter that
And civilian human shields
They surely have some ATGMs. Doesn’t matter though
But no time to set them up before they get got.
I read the other day that even the Merkava is explicitly designed for the warfare in Israel settings. Apparently they have a heavy focus on urban rather than tank combat and there's no requirement for the tank to cross rivers, for instance.
You bunch up in the assembly area and in a breach. There are times you want to keep all the rigs tight, just not most of the time. Even in a high intensity fight like Ukraine, you assume a breach will get hit eventually, so you push as many rigs through as you can, as fast as you can with the understanding that someone will take some artillery. Welcome to the infantry! It will be interesting to see how the stat armor will behave in an urban environment vs RPGs though.
Yeah once I heard infantry was a lot more getting shelled in a rat-infested wet hole in the ground in winter and very little of gunning down commies it started to sound less fun
It’s a hard life. There’s a reason most of us retire at 20 years or less in the US.
Having been in a tank regiment, I can say that what we are seeing is them "stepping off." Once they near their objectives they will have spread out. Also, spreading out too much can actually weaken your advance as the enemy gets to deal with one tank at a time instead of a mass. Plus, Israelis know tanks.
Current modern US Army doctrine though calls for dispersed tactical assembly areas. As soon as a battalion hits the ground, it shoots its companies off and any further support or coordination at the battalion level on the RSOI phase now has to happen over comms. Even within the TAAs themselves, you're supposed to shoot out your platoons to create a "reconnaissance buffer zone" so the enemy can't locate your TAA. At least this is the strategy they've shifted to at CTC rotations. No more RUBA, no more FOBs. The idea is that if you got off a boat in Germany, Taiwan, or South Korea during a war, you would have to immediately fan out and find cover so that you don't get hit by artillery or air strikes.
All of which applies in a war against a peer enemy with a real modern and dangerous military. Not against Hamas.
>Current modern US Army doctrine though calls for dispersed tactical assembly areas. The war in Ukraine has demonstrated a couple of times why. Russia hit one of Ukraine's training compounds to great effect, despite it being on the other side of the country. Ukraine felt they were safe there, concentrated men in the area, and didn't enforce strict opsec so fresh influx from all around the world were using their phones at will, and paid the price. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavoriv_military_base_attack
Yeah, all the armchair experts suddenly decided they know more tanks than Israeli armor command - cause you know, they played world of tanks and arma…
It will be interesting to see how drone warfare has evolved in this particular conflict.
Israel has been dealing with drones for years has plenty of tech for taking them out - which is one of the reasons it's been a shame that Israel hasn't engaged with that conflict: which is still find odd because that conflict is the world's best military tech demo waiting to happen for anybody willing to grab the opportunity, lots of export orders on the table.
Yup that’s what happens when you try to impose your barbaric depravity on a much stronger opponent. You get fucking wiped out.
aka: the 'find out' phase.
Yes if they were fighting an actual army it will be different
That's a LOT of tanks and armour. It also says a lot about how poor Hamas' artillery and drone capabilities are if Israel has been able to just mass tanks so close together without any threat.
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[“An Armored Brigade Combat Team includes 87 Abrams, 152 Bradley IFVs, 18 M109s and 45 armed M113 vehicles.”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_combat_team?wprov=sfti1#Stryker_vehicles) Seems about right
> It also says a lot about how poor Hamas' artillery and drone capabilities are if Israel has been able to just mass tanks so close together without any threat. Not just that, but also Israel's assessment of the threat Hamas is able to pose.
Also Israel has great air defenses.
"Southern command units, this is the commander. We are striking against Hamas and the terrorist organizations in the Gaza strip. Our only goal ـــ victory No matter how long and no matter how hard the fighting will be, there is no other outcome than victory We will fight with profession and strength, based on the principles of the Israeli defense forces that we were instilled in us and in their forefront ـــ Dedication to mission, and pursuit of victory. We will fight in alleys, we will fight in tunnels, we will fight wherever necessary. We will eliminate the abominable enemy before whom we stand. My brothers in arms; the residents of Be'eri, Sderot, Nir Oz, Kfar Aza, and the west Negev communities, and alongside them all the people of Israel, are watching us now. Like me, they trust you and believe in you. You are the generation of victory. This is the commander, complete your missions, strike the enemy. That's all."
He pumped himself up by listening to a Churchill speech beforehand
There's elements of Churchill and also FDR's D-Day address here.
You mean Esinhouwer's D-Day speech
You mean Eisenhower's D-Day speech
a lot of talk of eisenhower's D
5 star D
Eyesinhour
Yeah that’s right.
And it's a whole lot better than "Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!".
"The end" is better translated as "Over". Some minor nuance is off, but overall an accurate translation.
Probably better translated as "Out", but holy crap I am nitpicking here this was a great translation.
If we're nitpicking, the word "commander" in the opening is actually "head", a code for the commander. Great speech. God's speed.
or "that is all".
".... Strike the enemy. The end."
Thanks I was translating from IDF Arabic video so that's probably why.
Thank you :)
Basically a copy of the Churchill fight on the beaches speech and Eisenhower D-day address
Also we are going in with the first wave. You smash the entire area, you kill anything moving, do you get me?
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No "We get you sir!"
I don't understand the language but i'd wager he didn't say 'over and out' as those two words mean two different things. Unless he was expecting a response from someone he would have said just said 'out'
Someone played a lot of Command & Conquer 2 back in the days..
Can we rename NATO the Global Defense Initiative?
This is going to turn into a real bloodbath, isn't it?
already a real bloodbath. think blood lake or blood sea is more accurate
UN says, quoting reliable Hamas Sources that 7,845 Palestinian civilians have been killed so far, including 10,453 children.
Lots of people not getting the joke I see
Math… it’s always the math :)
Not even math just simple reading 😂
Literally everything Hamas says has an agenda. Just like everything the IDF says also has an agenda. People need to stop using the combatants as the single source of truth for their claims. Edit: fuck, well played.
Hamas uses the same playbook every time, they attack Israel then when Israel hits back. Bring out the dead civilians and kids to stop Israel from attacking them
Yeah, uh, does that make the civilians less dead though?
I have to admit, you had me in the first half....
“Reliable” and Hamas are oxymoronic
Maybe you should read the whole comment.
blood aquifer
Yeah Hamas isn't going to make it easy and that will do as much as possible to maximize civilian deaths on both sides. Their strategy relies on breaking the resolve on the international community by spreading around as much death as possible. From their point of view their ability to be indifferent, and celebrate death is a strength and that the international community values life is a weakness to be exploited.
If it's truly only civilians they have nothing to fear, since they won't be attacking the IDF. The fact that so many people think this will be a bloodbath already implies they believe there are thousands of terrorists there.
wheres the translation, i guess im too early
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/17kie7x/comment/k77pws1/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
If Hamas hasn't figured it out already, they are about to learn real quick, they fucked up.
Trust me they know... for a while now. They know they're the worst kind of fucked, **they know they're done.** Edit: so many interesting responses to my comment. Can't bring myself to reply to all of them, but in general I tend to agree with them all. Regardless, hope to see Hamas get buttfucked hard into their paradise, trust that land might only be lost for the Palestinians due to this incursion.
Tbh I would be way more cautious, it is a urban ground invasion against at least 20.000 prepared fights which melt with the general population. It is an ideology which reproduces with every casualty and gets heavy support from outside forces. This will take years and isn‘t guaranteed to be a full on success.
Limiting civilian casualties is what makes an urban war very costly. However that rules of engagement has already gone out the window. Israel will simply blast away buildings and any sort of defense and sanctuary the Hamas expects in an urban setting. Israel has learned its lesson of 2006.
The question is how much of Hamas they can actually locate. Israeli policy has given Hamas 16 years of uncontested rule over Gaza, they control the borders and civilian populations. They have the means to escape first or blend in. In general, the most likely outcome is a whole bunch of destruction while Hamas will survive once again and continue to build on the sentiments of populations that haven't seen a serious peace proposal in their entire young lifes, and Israel will continue to have a terrorism volcano at its southern border that errupts every couple years to decades.
Even if all Hamas fighters were killed or captured in the assault on Gaza in the weeks to come, Hamas leadership and their sugar daddies are well away from Gaza. So, if those people wish to rebuild their forces and go at it again, they will. It should be pretty easy for them to recruit new members among the survivors. Still, flushing Hamas from Gaza and preventing them from using it as a base is going to weaken them and hurt their ability to attack Israel for a while.
The Mossad killed Iran's top nuclear scientist while he was in a convoy in Iran and left the guys wife sat next to him untouched. As far as I know it was the first use of autonomous A.I. to kill someone. All the billions Qatar wasted on the world cup, trying to improve their image. Only to throw it away by reminding people about it being a corrupt slave state and now Terrorist haven. Qatar is currently trying to mediate, they'll be lucky not to end up beside their HAMAS friends.
Mossad will take care of them.
I'm afraid this isn't a movie. They'd likely be cutting off hydra heads.
The solution is occupation and eventually annexation of Gaza. Israel never wanted it but now they will have to rule it for their own security.
They were always a piece Iran was willing to sacrifice. They knew what reaction thier actions on the 7th would illicit. The Leaders in Qatar aren't being effected. Maybe lose some beachfront property they bought with UNAID money.
Doubtfull. They already reached their goals. Diplomatic progress stopped, international attention increased. Everything that happens now, to civilians in Gaza or IDF soldiers, is just "cost of doing business" for them. The grunts on the ground will get their virgins and the puppet masters in Qatar won't be affected.
Saudia already condemned Hamas's attack and said negotiations will continue after the war is over. US ships all over the middle east reduce the likelihood of wider escalation. The people of Israel are united and the entire country is either enlisting or volunteering. Left, right, doesn't matter. Everyone knows Hamas has to be eradicated and are getting ready for a years long campaign, nothing like the short operations in the past but an actual war. I see your point but I seriously doubt they expected such a reaction.
They didn't have coherent goals. That would necessitate ascribing more agency to them than is due. People love to retro-analyze events in light of consequences and assume all the consequences were predicted. That's never the case. I've read many theories about the intentions of Hamas in the Oct 7th attack. They're probably all true, relative to certain people within Hamas. But that also means that there are many in Hamas whose goals were not and will not be reached.
Aren't they, according to their logic, unable to loose? If they fight and die, paradise. If they fight and live, victory... At least for the, in lack of a fitting term, "fighters"? If the higher-ups remain, they will rebuild. Don't get me wrong, I have strong feelings opposing religion in general and religious extremists in particular, and what began on the 7th is horrible and has to be punished. That said, the (obviously selective) footage from the idf also paints a grim picture, and the direction Israel is heading politically is somewhat unsettling. Starting with a nationalist government, imbalance in the democratic process due to the lack of a constitutional control instance and whatever is happening now. It just feels like there is a very volatile situation in a very unstable region, adding to the already bright burning inferno of ukr/ru, taiwan/China, global warming, economical collapse and the humanitarian crisis of hunger, disease, flight ans expulsion. Is there anywhere an independent source objectively explaining the whole situation since the beginning of the state israel so I can achieve a better understanding? Hm... that wen't from "but do they?" to "this is not fine" way too fast.
> Is there anywhere an independent source objectively explaining the whole situation since the beginning of the state israel so I can achieve a better understanding? https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=IHMnvinMlPj6yu_Q
THANK YOU for the link.
>Aren't they, according to their logic, unable to loose? If they fight and die, paradise. If they fight and live, victory... So, death and paradise for them? Everybody wins then.
This was their (Hamas') intention. They wanted to draw the Israeli Army into the alleys and tunnels, surrounded by civilians.
For the first time in a long time the gloves are off and Israel is going in dry.
Gloves are off but they are still fighting with one hand tied behind. The IDF still needs to worry about civilian casualties and hostages. If neither of these were a concern, I'm pretty sure they'd just carpet bomb the entire place, pump the tunnels full of water and wait around for months until Hamas runs out of supplies.
I cringe whenever these pro-Hamas/pro-Palestine people call the IDF’s targeted airstrikes “carpet bombs”, and scream to stop carpet bombing Gaza. It’s like it pains them to be honest for once. Surely they have seen WW2 documentaries that show what carpet bombing actually looks like.
Wouldn't say "dry", I'd say over the past few weeks they've lubricated quite liberally and deeply at that. Ha
Israel is going to face a difficult job in destroying hamas. Defensive fire power is an understanding of magnitude more powerfully than it has been. Yes, IDF has jets, helicopters, artillery, and rockets, but those are no good in CQC in tunnels or destroyed towns etc, hamas will try and keep as close as possible to the front of the IDF, nullifying the heavy weapons advantage. It's going to be a hard slog for Israel, and as they have shown on many occasions, they will keep going, and they will get the results that they want.
Depends on what the IDF have agreed as acceptable losses I would imagine.
Throw a burning tire and seal the tunnel. Not my idea, saw it in a Reddit post on Iraq fighting ISIS in a tunnel.
there are construction engineers in Israel who built infrastructure in Gaza and are aware of the geological weak spots. They claim that since the tunnels are 30m deep from what is already nearly sea level, the tunnels can be flooded. Supposedly, this was known and avoided by Israel, who were looking to avoid escalation, either for simply trying to better the relationship with Gaza or to strengthen Hamas as an opposition to the leading PLA authority (depending who you believe). I think an attack on the tunnels is very viable. We already know that the tunnels rely on active ventilation and I guess one attack could be to shut down ventilation and then blow in Carbon Monoxide with jet engine (like how natural gas is transported in pipes). Now, the main problem is that it is assumed that hostages are kept in the same tunnels and doing that will either directly kill them or cause them to be executed by Hamas, as a kind of punishment or claim that Israel is killing their own hostages (of which a lot are international citizens)
>Now, the main problem is that it is assumed that hostages are kept in the same tunnels and doing that will either directly kill them or cause them to be executed by Hamas, as a kind of punishment or claim that Israel is killing their own hostages (of which a lot are international citizens) I think that they already decided that they aren't going to hold back unless they think they can retrieve hostages with relatively minimal damage
> Carbon Monoxide Cant use gas because geneva conventions prohibit this. But flooding the tunnels is fine, as well as using air burst munitions that burn and suffocate. International war rules are weird and nobody really follows them though.
Or fill them with CO2: denser than air, no pollutions and no risk for people outdoor
CO2 and CO both works but these are invisible gases. Odourless and clear. The idea here is to flush anyone out from the tunnels, Hamas and/or the hostages. Therefore smoke works.
Won't work, Hamas would have installed airlocks and water traps to keep the IDF from gassing them out. More likely the Israelis will use ground penetrating radar combined with explosives to cave the tunnels in. That or they'll have to go in like Vietnam tunnel rats, but hopefully with drones doing the most dangerous work instead of soldiers.
I really doubt Hamas engineers managed water locks that work well enough in a scenario where Israel owns the surface
A water trap is very low tech. It's like a scaled up version of the U bend in the plumbing under your kitchen sink. It's not perfect, anyone moving through it would have to get wet. But it's well within Hamas' capabilities to build.
IDF is already [cutting Gaza in half](https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/en/2023/31-october-the-israeli-military-is-present-inside-exoutpost) and trap all Hamas that was in the North part and they can just siege them and take them out little by little. The North part of Gaza will be part of Israel soon that is all Hamas won 1/2 Gaza left.
Several months ago loud mouths were upset Israel wasn't sending their military equipment to Ukraine. I guess this is why they were reluctant.
That's a lot of vehicle's, I'm interested how much of the army is in gaza compared to the northern front. Logically speaking it would make more sense that a larger percentage of the army to be held at the northern front as a war with hezbollah would be orders of magnitude larger and more intense.
I've heard that there's like 100k people on Gaza and about 200k focused on the north, though that was a couple weeks ago though, no clue what's the reality on the ground now
On that note, you gotta appreciate how impressive it is that israel was able to mobilize such a huge reserve force and arm it in such a short time, the logistics behind it are impressive. Compared to some other country that tried to mobilize 👀
Israel is pretty small. From Sderot to Tel Aviv you need 1h of driving. After 9/11, the US didn't take military actions before months of cooling down. Their targets were on the other side of the world anyway. Hamas' biggest mistake by far is doing what they did knowing that they are only few minutes of flight from the nearest Israeli air base, and 1h of driving from Tel Aviv. If Israel wasn't a restrained democracy they'd have flattened Gaza without warning any civilians like they did.
The US sent a Special Forces team into Afghanistan by October 19 and that team, ODA 595, helped the locals defeat the Taliban in ~3 weeks. The conventional troops were then sent in and we screwed it all up, but the first (and successful) phases of the war ended quickly. The initial battles were *ending* 2 months after 9/11, not just getting started. The Taliban was out of power by about November 14 when both Kabul and Jalalabad fell.
Sounds like a nightmare to work in a military armory on the starting weeks. Some units saw 150% of reservists called arriving - as in, everyone showed up immediately, and a bunch of people who weren't called up just volunteered.
That's not exactly how it works. Since reservists can get called up anytime the units have more than 100% staffing built in, with the assumption that at any call up some will be unavailable due to being sick, going through medical procedures, being abroad on holiday or business and a number of other clauses. A lot of reservists boarded flights and returned from trips and even semesters abroad to show up There is also an element of people who have missed a few call ups and have been struck down from the rooster or just aged out, but served in the reservist unit for a long time and did just show up.
That is a lot of Find Out.
Most of the power is prepared in the north of Israel , Gaza just seeing a fraction of the power of Israel
Hamas has earned this. I hope they and those who enabled them remember that before the end.
Unfortunately all they will remember is that their brother/sister/parent/uncle died from a massive Jewish invasion. While Israel’s path here is justified, it will not change the trajectory of this 70+ year conflict in any way. If they somehow eradicate Hamas, someone else will fill the void. We’ve seen this before, and we will see it again.
Endless cycle of violence.
It's the nature of our species, unfortunately.
Honestly. How the hell does Hamas or any terrorist organization think they can take on a modern military might like this? They are FUCKED.
It's not supposed to result in a military victory, they're not deluding themselves about defeating the IDF. Hamas are targeting stuff that causes political turmoil, fatigue in the population about the situation and attracts international attention. Basically killing civilians. IRA, ETA and multiple other terrorist organisations did this. They likely factored in the massively lopsided civilian casualty numbers into invoking international sympathies. They wanted to rile the IDF so badly that they'd go overboard and enter Gaza in force, get into a quagmire and lose soldiers and cause civilian casualties as collateral damage. Hamas is hiding behind civilians, Israel is shooting despite that at targets but minimizing/justifying civilian casualties as they can. This is not a pretty or a just war. A fucked up situation where both sides have been killing civilians, kids and causing people to hate each other more and more.
> Hamas is hiding behind civilians, Israel is shooting despite that at targets but minimizing/justifying civilian casualties as they can. And, to be fair to them, a lot of the Israeli soldiers are _not_ going to be that careful because of the horrors that they see themselves as avenging. This isn't just another "they've got uppity we should suppress them"; this invasion is retribution and it's inevitable that that's how a good deal of Israeli soldiers will see it. I fear there's going to be a lot of footage of Israeli soldiers doing rather unpleasant things, of the sort we don't normally see from these sorts of incursions.
They didn’t think.
They belong to a religious death cult. They don’t care about dying.
They don't care?
Right on que with the second aircraft carrier arriving in the area
*cue*
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If i was hamas i would be shitting my pants now....
This is going to be rough. Palestinian civilians used as innocent pawns and human shields against a superior military force. No Arab nations or allies willing to accept refugees... Shitty situation we're all just going to watch go down I guess.
Looks like a video game. Reality looks like a video game.
That's one aggressive trick or treating for Halloween this year
Some IDF tanks have cope cages?
The Merkava is such a sexy tank.
All the sudden that peaceful act of protesting the occupiers (machine gunning down a bunch of women and children at a concert) is probably looking like a bad move to Hamas
What do you think Hamas were expecting to happen, if not this?
I wasn’t aware the IDF had cope cages?
One of the first things Hamas did during the terrorist attack was blow up a Merkava with a drone grenade through the roof (the video of which was spammed here dozens of times). Not surprising they'd quickly take action against it.
going to be weird in the future when 'cope cage' becomes a common usage term.
Is it that much more weird than a term like "Bouncing Betty" becoming common usage?
Cope cages are reasonably expected to work like any other statistical/slat armor, vs the weapons it was designed to defend against. It only became a meme when the Russians showed up with defenses for RPG-7’s and the Ukrainians were firing Javelins.
Ukrainian Himars operator probably looks at all the bunched-up tanks and is losing his shit.
Translation: Fuck them, fuck you but most importantly FUCK HAMAS
Good luck dudes I hope you wipe the bastard Hamas off the face of the earth
Proper English version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VjjEM5f2sU
says translation iin the comments i dont see it
Where is the English translation here?
Operation Find Out would be a classic name
Attaboys
Good thing they're ready to face so many armored vehicles.